Interview With Jessica Amos On Authenticity, Coaching, Truth

50:03

50:03

Interview With Jessica Amos On Authenticity, Coaching, Truth

by David Gandelman

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4.9

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talks

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Meditation

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Everyone

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191

In this conversation with meditation teacher and punk rocker Jessica Amos, we dive into what it truly means to teach meditation with authenticity. Jessica shares her path from discovering meditation during a difficult chapter of her life to becoming a full-time teacher, coach, and course creator. Together we explore the challenges of carving your own way, staying true to yourself, and navigating the space between “spiritual aesthetics” and genuine human expression. Her journey offers meaningful insights for anyone interested in teaching meditation, or simply deepening their practice with honesty and heart.

Authenticity Meditation Coaching Self Improvement Self Acceptance Self Compassion Spirituality Presence Inner Child Healing Relationships Children Entrepreneurship Visualization Meditation Presence Meditation Child Meditation Self Compassion Meditation

Meet your Teacher

David Gandelman

Boulder, CO, USA

Meet your Teacher

David Gandelman

Boulder, CO, USA

Transcript

So actually, Jessica, I want to start off with a story. Recently, I was mentoring another meditation teacher. And I was like, Who's a teacher out there whose style you vibe with that you want to emulate a little bit that that you think you resonate with? And he was like, Nobody. I don't see anyone out there. I'm a punk rocker. I'm different. I'm weird. And I'm like, I got someone for you. I was like, Check out Jessica Amos. She's so herself, Not the typical. I'm a meditation teacher. Everything is perfect all the time. Every day. I'm always calm. She's a punk rocker. You got to emulate her. Welcome. Wait, Are you a punk rocker? What what kind of music do you do? Yeah, Well, No, My band is a punk rock band, All girl punk rock. So yes, I but I mean, Punk is like punk is a state of mind, In my opinion. Punk is a way of life. It's like there's punk rock people who are wearing, You know, Button downs every day. So like, Don't you know, Can't judge a book by its cover. But I love that story. So actually, Kyle, Who's one of the teachers in meditation teacher training that we're all doing together in 2026, Which is one of the reasons I'll get to that while we're doing this interview. He has a punk rock band, Too. And he was the head of e-commerce at Sounds True Publishing for 10 years. Buttoned up at, You know, Advertising guy. And on his off time, He is just rocking. And he sent me some of his music and it was really good. I'm gonna have to put a link to your music. Yeah, I would love that. That'd be great. Yeah, It's very it's all you know, It's just three girls in a garage band, You know, Who just like to rock. And I mean, If we just want to jump off from like, Part of why I love it is like, I have, You know, I don't know. I think a lot of us, But, You know, Women, But men, We all we have some like rage, You know, We I think we all have like an edge to us. And in order to not go blowing up our lives and our relationships, Everything around us, We have to have an outlet. And for me, Like being blasted by sound and screaming into a microphone and saying things that like maybe you can't just say to the barista, You know, Is like, It's very therapeutic. It like heals something and it like clears out the internal noise. What are you trying to say to the barista? Make my coffee hotter. We're gonna have to cut that part out for Insight Timer. Me and you have both been teaching on Insight Timer for I honestly don't know, Eight years, 10 years. It's probably going on 10. Yeah, We were both early, Like the first few hundred teachers on there. And now there's something like 20, 000. That's insane. Yeah, That is. That's a lot of people trying to copy you. So I would love for us to get into just what it's like being a meditation teacher. Is there still room to become one? Part of this series is about becoming a meditation teacher for those people who are interested in being a guide, Whether it's full time or part time, Even just as a passion. And I wanted to give everyone insight into some teachers who have really gone through the gauntlet and made it out the other side. And you make a living doing this, I think, Mostly full time, Right? This is your day job. Yes. And how you got there, Because it is pretty precarious. It's very entrepreneurial. You have to make your own way. As you know, We've all been through it. There's no one who's going to give you a nine to five teaching meditation. I think that's very rare. And so maybe we could just start out with how did you make it through? How was your journey of going, I want to be a teacher and then actually coming out the other side and doing it for a living? Yeah, That's a great question. I'll try to not make it too long of a story. But I mean, It starts with just why I was drawn to meditation to begin with. I mean, Chronic, Chronic anxiety, Feeling like out of control and wanting to find a way to manage myself, Like knowing it was kind of up to me. And I had a friend who was like, You should meditate. You should meditate. And I was like, No, I was just very, Very resistant. Like, That sounds stupid. I don't want to. And he kept sending me links to meditation challenges. And I was like, Oh, God, Now I really don't want to do it. Like Oprah's going to I'm going to meditate with Oprah. Like now it's like if I'm going to meditate, I should go be in an ashram on a mountaintop somewhere, Which is not realistic because I had two small kids and my marriage was ending. I didn't know my marriage was ending at the time, But it was. And I eventually just kind of caved because like, What else am I going to do? And I'd also started going to yoga, Which was also enormously supportive. So I started by meditating with 21 day meditation challenge. I get up every morning before everyone, Anyone was awake, Meditate for 21 minutes to these meditations and just cry my eyes out. Like it was so life changing for me. And ever since I just have never gotten off the meditation train, My practice has kind of ebbed and flowed and come and go. But anyway, At that time, I was also going to yoga classes and putting on these events in town called Stories from the Dark Side, The storytelling events I was putting on. And I was promoting those at the yoga studio. And one of the teachers said, Hey, Would you ever like to teach a like a class here at the studio? And I'm like, Well, I'm not a yoga teacher, But I'm really into meditation. I have these vivid wilds like visions while meditating. And so sure, Maybe I could teach a meditation class. And that's literally how I started teaching meditation was I got invited. I was very involved in the studio just as a student already. And they saw that I was, You know, Outgoing, Gregarious, Doing events and stuff. So it and it was that was it. And I just fell in love with teaching too, Because it's basically just took everything that I was experiencing in my inner world through meditation and just inviting other people into what it was I was experiencing, Which made I think the meditations unique and like they were highly just visual. So I just visual like visualization meditations are kind of the primary way in which I teach. So anyway, That's how it started. And then I had some friends who had a podcast. They said, You should come into our studio and use our studio to record your meditations. So I used their their podcast studio and their editor, And he put together all these beautiful guided meditations. I created my first online meditation course back like in 2012 before meditation courses were like even really a thing. But it was eight weeks meditation course. And it just kind of took you through the basics and helped you kind of create your own practice. And and then that kind of like got set aside for a while while I got divorced and had to figure out how I was going to raise two kids on my own and all this stuff. And I stopped teaching at the studio and then stopped running my course. And it all just kind of rested for a bit until my friend Karen came along and she's like, I am obsessed with this app called Insight Timer. I listen to it every day, All these guided meditations. And so I was like, You know, I have all these meditations just sitting here, The collecting dust. And at the time, The app was just 100 percent free. And I, You know, I was like, Well, Might as well just put it out there for the people. It's just sitting here. So I started putting my meditations on on Insight Timer. And that's kind of where that journey started with teaching on the app. And then about a year or so later, They started saying, Oh, We're going to do courses, Which I just was so thrilled about because creating courses was really my passion. I love creating courses. That eight week course was such a such a fun thing for me. So then I got on the course creation bandwagon with Insight Timer. And I mean, That's kind of how it all unfolded. What are what are some of the names of some of your courses? Well, The very first course I created was learn how to say no, Which is, Of course, On compassionate boundaries. So it's just a 10 day boundaries course. I have presence in everyday life, Which is 30 days of just learning to be more present. And that kind of grew into when relationships end, Talking about how to mindfully show up to the endings of relationships. Then I have one on inner child healing, Shadow work, One that follows or four that follow the season. So it's all very practical, Down to earth, How to live in your daily life. Yeah. In relationship and still maintain a peaceful center. That's a lot. How many courses do you have on Insight Timer? 11 currently. Oh, Wow. I thought I had the record. Pretty close there. I don't know how many I have, But it's something like that, Too. Yeah. We can keep motivating each other every time you put when I just text me like, I got another one. Where are you at? Yeah, I like that. I like that a little healthy competition. Oh, Yeah. You think you're putting out more enlightenment? Yeah, I just did it. I actually just put out a course on what did I call it? Finding God after religion, Which is a very niche topic. But a lot of people are exiting the church, But still want a spiritual relationship with God. Yeah. And so it hasn't gotten a lot of traction, But it was really fun to create. You know, Sometimes I do courses that way, Too, Where I'm like, I don't care if no one listens to this. I just got to get it out of me. I'm interested. I have a course called Laughing to Enlightenment. And I was like, I don't care if anybody listens. I'm making it because I just need to make it. Exactly. That's so much of what it is. Like all of it is, I just have to get it out. I don't know what the result will be, But it's just important to create. And I've noticed, Even if it's not the most popular course, There might be a small cohort of people where it means the world to them. And that impact is equal or greater than just numbers. And so I've definitely noticed that that could be fulfilling in a whole other way. Kind of like being an artist where you're like, I just got to get this painting out of me or this song out of me. Thousand percent. Yeah. And it's sort of like that's, I think of that as my role. My number one, If I can remember as often as possible, Is just to like, Let it come through and to not be attached to like, Once it leaves me, It's no longer in my hands. And I have to trust that like, It's going to do its work in the worlds. I started reading kids stories on Insight Timer, And this was like an initiative that Insight Timer did for a tiny slice of time, Like years ago, Probably back in 2019, They wanted to start putting out bedtime stories for kids. And I was like, I love that because I love reading to my kids. And they were even like paying per recording at the time too, Which was like a nice payday. So I was like, I'll record as many as you want me to. So I recorded like eight. And those are all my most popular tracks, Are all of my, And I get more messages from children than I do from any adults who, I mean, They send me the sweetest, Kids are so sweet. They send the sweetest messages. And so your most popular content is kids stuff. It's the, Yeah. And, But adults listen to it too. Yeah. Like the bedtime stories they love. Yeah. It turned out like all of that, Like got, It went to the top at some point that surpassed all of my most popular meditations. That's amazing. All right. I might, I've always wanted to do some kids meditations. I, You know, I do a lot of sleep stuff. I was thinking about some stuff for kids for sleep and I haven't gotten around to it. So at some point I might have to call you. I'll be like, All right, How do you approach this? What is the difference between guiding something for kids versus adults? I love, Well, Actually I would say I feel like I'm actually more natural with kids. Cause kids are so, They like kind of bring down, Kids are so naturally just not judgmental or, You know, Whatever they're just, They receive it. And I, I talk to them differently. You know, I call them darling, You know, Say goodnight to them. I wouldn't do that to an adult, You know? So it's, It's, It's sweet. It's, It's, There's like a sweetness to it that I get to tap into in myself that I, I reserve or hold back, You know, With adults. Yeah. And that makes, That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. What is something that you did when you became a meditation teacher or hit your stride that you realized that you never thought of before? Oh, This is part of the package of being a teacher. I never really expected this. And what, Maybe like giving people a little bit of a looking through the keyhole into being a teacher. What's something that surprised you about this journey? Well, I'm surprised by it, Like in general, Cause I didn't really set out to do it so that, You know, It just is what happened. Um, I think I've been, That's a really good question. What has surprised me? My first response is, Um, I am surprised at how limited people's mindsets are about meditation and about who they think they need to be in meditation. And like this weird little culture that's been built around it as like aesthetically beige and white and light. And you know what I mean? And like all the things that I'm really not at all. And like, I, That's been surprising to me and it's even been surprising to me how much I've even struggled with my identity as a teacher. And also like, I mean, You know this, But I was banned from insight timer twice for saying during live sessions, I was like reported and they would, They banned me. So I have two marks against me on the app. Um, And like, It's not like I'm just sitting, You know, But that's like, I think it's been, I felt a little bit just like, How do I exist within like my personality and who I am and my heart, Uh, Without succumbing to, You know, All the aesthetic, The, All the aesthetically pleasing and the ways that the people expect it to be. Um, And that's been a big dichotomy for me, Like the punk rock versus the meditation and having to marry those within myself and not separate myself out thinking I have to be one way here and one way here. Um, So that's kind of surprised me that I have had, I had, I've had to really have like an identity crisis around it, Which I think is, It's probably normal for anyone, Especially as you start to gain like a little more attention and a few more eyes on you and more, You know, Like you have to be able to like, Still stay true to you and know that not everyone's going to like it because they have this built up expectation of what they think a teacher should be like, How you should be talking, What you should be saying, How you're supposed to make them feel. And if you don't make them feel that way or deliver that you have to be willing to be. Okay. Yeah. I'm like you in the sense of mine wasn't punk rock. It's comedy. So I definitely have to kind of pull my jokes or punches. Uh, I have to keep them rated G obviously when I'm teaching meditation. And so I've struggled with that as well. Uh, And I've been pushed by so many friends to, To do more comedy and either videos or on stage or whatever it is. And one of my outlets has been writing some TV shows, Uh, On that. Uh, It's a whole different thing, But I've, I know exactly how that feels. And I think every meditation teacher, Whether they showed or not has that struggle. Some people just give in and like, No, I'm just going to be the calm person on camera. Who's always the same monotone. And I think that's a huge loss because there's no one out there that's actually like that. And, You know, Part of being a teacher is giving people permission to be themselves and to accept themselves. And if you're not, Then how are you actually guiding them? So I think there's a lot of punk rocker meditators that are going to be happy about this interview. Yeah, No, I like that. I think this is an important conversation to have just because I find that the people who really like me and my work, It's because I feel relatable to them and the people who don't like it. It's because there's something in themselves that like they're, They're wanting, You know, They're wanting me to reflect something different back and, And that's okay. And not everyone is a fit for everybody. And I think that's another thing you have to really be willing to understand is like, It's about what wants to come through and it's not about how it's received. And so it really, You really have to fortify your relationship with yourself in order to teach, In order to be of the greatest service. Yeah. Well, When I was training in Hawaii, I remember one of the other students training to be a teacher was a fighter pilot, A female fighter pilot. One was like an executive at UPS. One was like a 19 year old born again, Christian who was like coming out of the church. And I remember looking around the room and looking at the diversity. I was like, Oh my God, We're like the X-Men. Everyone is so unique in their abilities, Bringing to the table. And that's the coolest thing. Yes. Yes. I love that. No. And that's the thing is like, Even in some of the courses I've put out, I've been like, God, I don't know, You know, But we could have 10, 20, A hundred people put out the same course on the same topic. You could give everyone a topic and they all have to go make a course on that same topic and everyone's going to come at it differently. And that's why we need, You know, We need more than just the one, The one style, The one kind, But what lands the most is when people are just authentic to themselves. Yeah. And the way that they, The way that they teach. Yeah. Great. Do you think there are too many meditation teachers? Yes. And no, Because we were talking about this earlier about, You know, Insight timer growing and having so many more, So many more teachers. Part of why I've had success as a, As a meditation teacher is because I'm like the only one in my city who is like promoted myself as a meditation teacher. Most people are like yoga or something else. Like, I've just been like, I am a meditation teacher. I'm a meditation teacher. That's my title. That's what I call myself. There's not a lot of people walking around with that title and using that as their primary title. So people have just known me as, Oh, We'll call Jessica to come do the retreat. So I've gotten a lot of calls from people to come and talk at a thing or do a thing here or whatever. And I'm the only one, I'm one of the few people in the city doing just meditation classes. It's not an add on to yoga or to another thing. So back when I was teaching more in-person classes and doing stuff like on a city level. Um, Yeah, So no, Not really. There's not a lot of people doing it. And there's some people that will kind of add it on to a yoga practice or are starting to be more learning the skill sets of teaching meditation. But I, I don't think there are enough good meditation teachers is like what I would say. Maybe there's people who are doing it, But people who are really good at it and are just doing that and making that primary, Not cloaking it in something else. I think there's not enough of that. Yeah, Exactly. They cloak it in something else. I think that is really common. Well, Because it is a hard path to walk financially if it's the only thing you're going to do. And I'm sure you've experienced that. We've talked about like on Insight Timer, They recently changed the algorithm. And so a lot of teachers, Their income has been cut by half. And I know a lot of people have reservations about becoming a teacher for that, For that reason, Because they're like, Well, How do I make a living? So just going into that a bit more, How do you navigate it? Like what, Where are you? What platforms are you on? Where do you make money? Is it in person? Is it one-on-ones? Is it courses? Maybe we can give folks just a little bit of, You know, A look into Jessica's life and how you do it. Yeah, That's a really good question. I mean, I will say I wasn't fully full time of teaching until COVID hit. Like COVID really forced me, You know, In a way. And I've always kind of had other side hustles going on, Like kind of like you were talking about, Like I'm very multi-dimensional. I love doing many different things. Like it's not my only thing. It's just one thing that I was, I've been doing for a long time along with, But it's, I've always been entrepreneurial. Like even when I had other side hustles, There's still, I'm still an independent contractor helping with design work or building websites or whatever. And a lot of this is stuff like skills that I have honed by wanting to teach. So I would say that like, I've had to learn a lot of skills. Like I became a bookkeeper for a year and then I learned how to keep my books so I could do my own books as a teacher. I've built my own website because I didn't have the money to hire someone to build my website for me. So I'm very self-taught and I'm very scrappy, Especially when like, I don't have the money, But I know I need a website and I can't make a living just teaching weekly classes. So I go make websites for other people. So I'd say that's kind of how I started with, I want to do this. I want to create in this way, But I have to be able to have to be willing to do other things as well. And your website really is so you, Such a good job of reflecting you. Thank you. Yeah. So where do you teach? How do you sustain yourself? So, I mean, Insight Timer has been primary for a long time, But then also just all my self-created courses and classes just through like promoting. I have been on and off various apps over the years, Honestly. Like I've been, I'll be on an app and they're paying me for a while. Then they kind of go under and they can't do it anymore. And then I'll go on an app and they'll pay me for a while. And then they, You know, Like I would say that like with the app situation, Insight Timer has been the most consistent and they're the ones that really gave me the leverage to like trust that I could go into it because they were so generous to start with like their pay structures. And I was like making good, Really good money. Like that supported me almost entirely. It paid all my basic bills for like a long time and allowed any extra income to go to other things. But that kind of went away. And especially during COVID, I was like, Okay, I got to do this full time. What's a better way to make money? Because Insight Timer didn't pay it. The courses weren't paying it. So I decided to go into one-on-one coaching. And people asked me, People have been asking me for like coaching or one-on-one. And I really, Really didn't want to do it. And I didn't really know how to go about doing it. So I took a course, A program. I signed up for like basically how to be, How to be a coach and how to actually charge money. Like I really signed up for it so that I can learn how to charge money for my work because notoriously meditation has been like donation based and like really low volume income. So I was like, I have to learn. I have to learn how to charge money and charge money according to the value that I offer. And so that is why I signed up for this coaching course. I didn't even really want to do it to be a coach. But I was like, If I'm going to sign up, I should just do the whole program, Become a coach so I could learn all the steps to do it. And it's stuck. Like it has stuck. And now, Like I would say the majority of my clients come from Insight Timer or they come from my local, From like my local base or like even from people I went to high school with. Like it's amazing how I've really been like marketing my entire life just based on who you are. Like all people are people everywhere you go and everybody is struggling in some kind of way. So that's also been surprising to me. I didn't expect to become a coach also, But it's all still based on everything I teach, Like in my courses and in my classes. It's a lot of it's on people want help with boundaries and their relationships and how to stay with themselves and love themselves and be more peaceful from within. And so I get to really go deep with people and I love it. And I would say that is now, I mean, It's definitely now my primary source of income that allows me to then be generous with teaching and meditation and courses, Especially as everything with Insight Timer changes and it's not paying as well. It's very so nominal at this point that there. Yeah. I'm now also still expanding into more options that I that I'm eager to explore that I haven't explored yet. But well, You'll be teaching in the 2026 teacher training. So that'll be another avenue. Do you teach at all in person? I haven't been. I miss teaching in person. I was up until last year. So just over the last year, I pulled back from teaching in person, Mostly because it was hard to find a studio home that felt like really good for me to teach from. And I say that's the number one is like the place to set myself up in that in that way. But I do love doing things. And I've done in-person retreats and half-day meditation retreats and that kind of thing. But ongoing teaching, I haven't been doing in person for a minute. Who is one of your favorite meditation teachers that inspired you? Well, I mean, Obviously, Deepak Chopra was the first teacher that I ever listened to. And it was very good. It was very good. But I wouldn't say that he's like my number one, Like inspiration. I honestly don't listen to a lot of meditation teachers, But I do love like some of the big classics, Like I love Ram Dass, Like a lot. I love his teaching. I love just the the the energy of how of how he teaches. I have another person I'm really into right now. Her name is Tosha Silver, And she's kind of obscure, Like you can't find her on social media. She has tons of books, Like people who know her know her. But like, She's just so much about kind of that inner surrender and inner happiness. And I think that just really resonates with me. She's very down to earth and kind of punk rock, Too. And, You know, Just very relatable. So I would say those are the ones that come to mind to start. Which is why they need meditation now more than ever. You know, There's all these studies showing how our attention span has gone down, Especially with the younger generation. I have friends who they can't pay attention for more than five seconds. You're talking to them and they wander. I think I read the average person checks their phone about 144 times a day. Wow. Yeah. And so, You know, There's like junk food for the brain, Right? All of the media. And so to counteract that, We have to sit still, Which is harder now. I think it's harder to meditate now than it was during the time of the Buddha or even 30 years ago, Where brains are being wired. And so people want smaller and smaller bite-sized meditations, Which is fine, Right? To get started. But I don't think it's actually what they need, But that's where they're at. There is this push. We were talking about this before we started recording for meditations to be shorter and shorter. Do you remember? It was like eight minute abs, Seven minute abs, Six minute abs. Yeah. Give me what I want now. Yeah. Yeah, Exactly. And like, It's so true though. I mean, What you're saying is like, We do, I do feel like we need it now more than ever. And it's been sitting with myself, Like in meditation with nothing else going on that has like, It's, That's the most powerful thing. And that's the medicine that we need. It's like clearing out all that junk, All that noise. There's this constant, Like demands on our attention. We don't even know what we think, What we feel, What we want, Because we're not sitting with ourselves in any kind of way. And that's my whole brand is stay with yourself. It's the practice of like being who you are, Where you are, And like really learning to like be attuned to you. And I don't even know that people are aware that they're not. Yeah, They're not. Yeah. So, I mean, I've always defined like the job of a meditation teacher. One of the definitions is to help people cultivate awareness. Yes. As simple as that sounds. It could be body awareness, Breath awareness, Emotional awareness, Mental awareness, Spiritual awareness, Relational awareness. And it reminds me, I was recently at a dinner and there was a guy there who he just came out of some kind of retreat and he had absolutely no filter and he's pretty aggressive. And he's like, I'm just my authentic self. I don't care what you think. I don't care what anyone thinks. I'll say anything. And he would be like, Oh, What's your job? There's no way you make enough money from that. And it was rude and boundaryless and obnoxious. And I was there like, I don't actually think that's his authentic self. That's his child without any boundaries or awareness. And there is this thing of everyone's like, I'm going to be my authentic self. That's your work too, Right? But if you haven't developed as a person, Then who am I getting? Yeah, No. And I think that's a really common thing now too that I'm noticing. And this is another thing I've been very surprised by because a lot of my work, Like I said, With my courses is based in practical down to earth daily stuff to help people feel like they can live within their lives in a happy manner and not be just however this guy is. But I'm just noticing a trend with people who they don't want to do the work. They don't want to go through the discomfort of sitting in meditation, Of going through the self-work of actually changing. It's much easier to say, Oh, This is just how I am. Or, Oh, I just have trauma or I just did this. And they can just say that this is like their personality and who they are. They are this way. All these excuses for I'm this way because of this. And I'm this way because of that. And I find it to be honestly quite disappointing that people say that there's just a lot of people going around saying they're enlightened or they're conscious or aware. It's like they're saying that's awareness. It's not awareness. In my opinion, It's like avoidance and it's not conscious. It's not awareness at all. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, Yeah. When you do one-on-ones, I saw that you've been doing life coaching as well for 13 years, I think I read. So as a meditation teacher, When somebody signs up to do a one-on-one with you, Generally, What are they coming for? What do they want to do? What do they want to experience or achieve? And how do you walk them through? What's your process? Yeah, I love that question. I mean, A lot of times they come to me just because they've taken one of my courses and they feel that I'm authentic and down to earth and I get them and it's going to be practical for them. A lot of times they're coming because they want to make a change in their life or in their selves. They know that it's up to them to change things or to find the happiness or to do what it is they need to do. And they're having a hard time doing it on their own. And they want someone that they trust who's going to give it to them straight. I only work with people who really, I mean, I'm not harsh or mean in any way. It's a very not like I have no judgment for anybody around anything, But I'm also not going to **** you through the process. And I think it's people who come to me who really just know that they're talking themselves out of the changes that they need and they want, And they need someone who's going to hold them accountable mostly, But who they also trust and is mindful and kind. And then we also, I teach them a lot to help them find, It's not even so much teaching them. It's so much like helping them find their own answers that make sense for them. So I don't care if you're religious, Not religious, Spiritual, Agnostic, Atheist, There's always some kind of center that people have to attach to, To something greater that helps propel them forward. So that's some of the work too, Is helping them find the something greater, The greater reason why to make the change, To do the thing. And then because I'm a high-end coach and working with me isn't cheap, That's also part of the work that people, It's like, You're going to put this money forward. You're going to put your money where your mouth is. You're going to invest in the change that you say that you want, And it's not going to be small amount. So you're going to have to show up to it. And it also calls people out on how bad they want to make the change, Because working with me doesn't cost more than getting a new granite countertops, But people will spend money on that all day long. I have no idea how much granite countertops cost. Well, It just depends. I mean, You know what I'm saying? It's some of the excuses that people give, Like they'll go into debt, $50, 000 to go get an education, Like a college degree that they don't even use, But they don't want to pay a life coach a fraction of that in order to actually be happy and fulfilled and set boundaries in their relationships and learn how to say no and do the uncomfortable work of being seen. And so a lot of it is people who want to be seen and need to be seen so that they can't f*** themselves anymore. Um, So it's very practical, Very down to earth, But it's also like, I, It's extremely fun, Honestly. Do you do partially conversation in part guiding them in meditation? Yeah, We do. We meditate every time we meet together and I'm always encouraging their meditation practices. Like every one of my clients, Like that's just a part of working with me is, And that's why they come to me too, Is they know that meditation will help and they know that I can guide them in how to find their way in that too. Um, So again, I feel very open. It doesn't have to be just how I guide meditation or just my meditations. It's like, Go find what works for you and let's find what works for you so that, And, And I, And they have to report back. That's a huge part of working with me too, Is you have to report back. You have to check in, Let me know how this is working. And we were going to keep finding a way that makes it doable for you because, And it's, It's life-changing just to, To meditate every day or even a couple of times a week when you've never done it. Um, So absolutely. That makes, That makes sense. I do similar work when I do my one-on-ones, We'll do some conversation, We'll do, We'll do some meditating, Definitely accountability and, And working through the layers of energy, You know, Whatever those layers are as they come up. Um, If someone was kind of a up and coming or budding meditation teacher or aspiring to be a meditation teacher from your long journey here as being one, What, What would be some advice you would give them if they were starting today? Oh yeah. I love that. Watch out for this or focus more on that. Um, The first answer that comes to mind is do it because you love it, Do it because you love it and stay connected to what you love about it. And the why, Like why you love it and why you want to offer it. Like that is the most important thing is to, To stay connected to. And that might change over time. Like as you get deeper into it, Some of the why's might change and you're going to change. And the way you teach might change, But always stay connected with your love for it. Um, And your love for like, Why you're doing it and the reason that you're offering. And I would say, Keep, It's a thousand percent possible to make a living as a meditation teacher, But you also have to stay open to it unfolding into whatever it wants to become based on what's flowing from you in your heart, Based on that, Like open heart space and give it away or offer it because that's in your heart to do not because you're trying to get something from people and not also because you're trying to change people to just honor what's coming through you and entrust that that's going to do the work that it needs to do in the world. Um, And, And be, Be open and, And be willing to, To call yourself a meditation teacher, Use that title, Shop yourself. You have to be willing to shop yourself around too. Like be willing to, To offer guiding a meditation in your place of work or like at your local studios or, You know, Put your meditations online somewhere. But I would say don't hold back, You know, And do it imperfect. If that's how it feels, Don't wait to be perfect and don't try to emulate other people, Be inspired by other people, But you have to be connected to what wants to come through you. You know, The most common objection I get is when people like, I'm not healed enough or I don't have enough wisdom or enough experience. What would you say to somebody who feels that way, Which is probably like 95%. Yeah. I would say, I mean, Just based on the story I told earlier, Like I had just started meditating really close to the time that I started teaching meditation. And that's part of why it made it so powerful actually is because it was so powerful for me in my healing journey that like, I brought like so much love and care and emotion to my teaching because I'm not healed because it's also my journey. Like, And that's always where, I mean, I feel like emotion coming up in me as I think about it, Every course I've created, Everything I've done, It's because this is the very thing that I am healing in myself. And it's almost like in order to heal it in myself, I must teach it and give it away. And I think that is what true people who are truly called to teaching that is so much of like our process. I don't know. You could probably tell me if that's your process too, But it's like in order to heal it, To kind of lock in the healing, I have to offer that exact healing to other people. So I would say that's exactly how you should feel is that you're not healed. And in order to heal, You must teach what it is you want for yourself. Yeah. There's a quote I love. I think it's from Elizabeth Gilbert. You pray love, Not from that book, But I think I've heard her say, Or maybe she was quoting someone else, Find what breaks your heart and you'll find your purpose. Yeah. And then as a teacher, You're helping other people walk the path, Right? That's the path of a teacher is to walk a path and help other people walk that path too. Exactly. What's a big mistake that you've made on your teaching journey? Hmm. That's a great question. Honestly, Being jealous of other, Other teachers and what other people have and seeing other people as more successful or gaining more than me, Or what do they have that I don't have, You know, Like a scarcity and lack mindset. Like really, I would say, And that's, It's a mistake, But it's also like, You almost can't help it. You have to work through it. I'm glad. And I, It doesn't mean that doesn't still come up, You know, Like why them and not me. And you know, Like I'm just as good and all this stuff. Is that your inner voice? Wait, Is that your voice? She's nasally and high pitched. I might need to know more of her. Like who? She's naggy. Yeah. Your muddied painting is just like, Why is that? Why is this happening? Yeah. Yeah. Who wants to listen to that voice? That's her voice. It's like a female Donald Duck. Like who's, Why does someone else have all the gold? Yeah. I love it. Yeah. That's, I mean, That's the voice that came out. So that's her voice for sure. And it's just, I would, So I would say yes. I mean, Jealousy comparison. I, You know, Be mindful of the fact that everyone has a place. There is enough room for everybody. What you have to offer is unique, You know, And you have to stay connected to that. Otherwise it's going to shut you down. There's so many times when I've shut myself down because I didn't feel good enough. Yeah. I think that is a common journey for all of us, Especially if you're sensitive. No. And, And you want to be in this, You want to be in the cultivating awareness game and and you're sensitive. That's really, Really common. And those people who are sensitive in the awareness game, They, They go slower because everything needs a lot of consideration and to be felt. And then there's that feeling of I'm not good enough because I'm feeling so much. And when I feel it, It hurts and invalidates. So I've, I've seen that journey a lot. My friend, Michael Gallion, I think I'm saying his last name, Right? He has like a million gazillion followers on social media and he just does this simple one minute, Like check in every single morning where he just lets people feel how they feel, Whether it's overwhelmed or invalidation or pain or the world is crumbling. And man, It works just letting people be where they are. And it sounds like your teaching and journey is similar in letting people learn how to be who they are and where they are. Yeah. No, That's exact. That's exactly right. Is like, It's not people are going to have whatever experience they have. And it's our job to kind of just create a pause in the space, You know, And that's offered so little. I know, I don't know how to say as a gay lawn. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Gallion, Galen. Yeah. Yeah. I've talked to him all the time. How you pronounce his last name? No, It's very powerful. Like just being given a moment and feeling like there's not a message out there that's trying to change you or do something. I think that I'm very kind of anti like self-improvement in a way, You know, Because it's like nothing needs to be improved. Like the trap we fall into is we got to do this to improve and do this to improve and do this to improve. But we're not, There's nothing that needs to be improved, Really. Yeah. On an existential level, Sure, You can get more in shape and you can eat better and you can sleep well and, You know, All of that stuff. But kind of at the core of your soul, That part just needs to be more, In my experience, Revealed and space to open and awaken versus improve. So I feel the same way on that one. Sarah Blondin's another teacher, You know, That we both know who's really great, I think, At helping people accept that inside themselves and accept the feelings and where they are. Probably the hardest part of meditation, Right, Is accepting the things that hurt and that we don't want to feel that we override and avoid and just sitting with it and being with it. And that's where all the healing is. It's so simple, It's hard. Yeah, Yeah. Well, Because it's not what we're taught or told, But it is, It's so much of just letting it, Letting it be, Like letting it be, Giving it some space to sort of even like off gas or dissipate, You know, It's just, It's, That's the, That self-compassion and that, Um, That self-love piece, Really, That a lot of people seek is, Oh, How do I love myself? Well, Maybe just, Just being with yourself, You know, Not trying all the time anyway. You can sit still and you can be a punk rocker and have both. Yeah, You can. And be a meditation teacher. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for sharing all of your insight, Wisdom around being a teacher with everyone, All the maybe budding meditation teachers who are watching and listening to this, Or maybe they take meditation teaching and they incorporate it into something else that they do and, You know, And integrate it. I don't say yes to being involved actually in a lot of things at this point. Like I used to say yes to everything and now I say yes to very few things and I'm a total yes to this. And also because like, I have done this work by myself for so long that I think it's really powerful what you're bringing together, Like with the teachers and like, It's, It's, It's even more powerful than just like working with just one individual person because it's going to be so many amazing teachers. So thank you for putting it together. And also for the interview series, That's like hopefully helping people decide to sign up because we do need it. We do need more people who are bringing this energy into the world. Yeah, It's kind of like that one candle can light a thousand candles. You know, My vision is a thousand candles can light a hundred thousand or millions. And I, And I see humanity in that way too, Where there's some people whose consciousness is awakening and they're in the jungle of harshness that this world is. Even at the time of this recording, There's so many wars going on in the world, So much intensity. And at the same time, It doesn't take that many people to tip the scales of consciousness and hopefully have an explosion of flowers. Yeah, But no, I agree with you. It's like even just one person who is present and aware and like, Again, With an open heart and a peaceful spirit, Like it can change the atmosphere, An entire room, You know, Just one person who, Who brings that energy. Us coming together and cultivating that together and practicing together. I always tell people like, It's your work to do, But you don't have to do it alone. And I think that coming together in trainings and, You know, In a place that you trust, That's really going to help you cultivate your gifts in this way is, Uh, It's really, Really powerful. And I think it's, It's the, It's the direction of the future is we do this together or not at all. Um, We're blooming together and we're taking over in our blooming, Uh, Together. Thank you. Thank you. Jessica, It's a pleasure to see and speak with you again. Thanks for all the insight and wisdom and, Uh, Everyone who's sat through this with us. Thanks for being here and go meditate and start a punk rock band. That's right. Whatever you want, Go do improv. Whatever you want to do. All right, Everyone. See you next time. Thank you. Thanks, Jessica. Bye. Thank you.