Welcome to the Breakdown to Breakthrough podcast.
My name is Lisa A.
Romano.
I am a life coach,
Bestselling author,
YouTube vlogger,
Meditation teacher,
And expert in the field of codependency and narcissistic abuse.
I am a believer in the power of an organized mind.
My aim is to help people learn what it means to live above the veil of consciousness rather than living a reactive life.
May your heart feel blessed,
Your mind feel expanded,
And your spirit find hope as you spend time with me here at the Breakdown to Breakthrough podcast.
We're going to be talking about the word narcissists hate the most and what you can do to avoid vindictive punishment.
Narcissists believe in their head.
They believe in their false self.
They believe that they're exceptional.
They believe that they are better than anyone else.
If your friend is a narcissist,
Your friend will think that she is better than you.
She is smarter than you.
She is more beautiful than you.
She is more capable than you.
And through various ways,
Through exhibitionism,
She will show you that she believes this.
And you may not offer a conflict or you may not approach her with a different opinion.
The idea is that you should agree with them and if you don't,
Sometimes you'll be seen as a threat.
And in narcissistic relationships,
It's not uncommon to have a narcissist literally berate you until you agree with them,
You cry uncle.
And then the next step is they have you apologize for ever disagreeing with them.
And sometimes you walk away thinking,
Maybe I was wrong.
Maybe she was right because they're so convinced that they're absolutely correct.
Now we know that narcissism is a personality trait.
What we're trying to do because narcissists generally don't go into therapy,
At least that's what research suggests,
We're trying to understand narcissism as a personality trait and we're trying to identify people in our lives that create havoc and really are disruptive and what we can do about it.
I think there is also a very important key aspect that none of us should gloss over and that is,
Do I possess these traits in myself?
What will happen with a narcissist is because they lack empathy,
They exploit others.
There's this overall sense of entitlement and they are unable to look within themselves and to change.
If you are someone who notices that,
Well,
Maybe I was narcissistic in that situation,
It makes you uncomfortable.
That's a really good thing.
If you take it to the next level and you actually seek out treatment or you seek to change,
That's amazing.
You're actually bringing more light and more love and more expansion to the universe rather than staying stuck on this generational wheel of dysfunction and continuing to do to others what was done to you.
So bravo to you.
We know that narcissists can't tolerate criticism.
We know that narcissists see criticism as a form of rejection and therefore when you use the word no to a narcissist,
You can trigger them,
Trigger their narcissistic injury and because they feel rejected by you,
This can push them into a complete state of tension and in that space because they lack objectivity,
They lack the ability to look within,
They lack the ability to be responsible for the words that are coming out of their mouth,
They have this visceral reaction,
They have this tension and pain that shows up.
When you say no to them and what they do is they react so they can become vindictive,
Very punishing.
They can go into gaslighting you,
Projection,
Blame shifting and smear campaigns.
In healthy relationships,
You feel like your partner actually wants you and welcomes you to come to them with your concerns,
With your frustrations and with your desires to change something in the relationship.
We're all striving to have that type of a relationship with someone else and we're all striving to be able to have those sort of healthy boundaries when it comes to our relationships.
To be able to find someone who is going to welcome us when we're concerned about where the relationship is going.
We're all trying to find a relationship with someone where we actually feel safe enough to share our vulnerabilities and we know that if we have a concern,
It's not going to be exploited.
The other person has goodwill for us and they're going to hold their concerns or our concerns for the relationship in the palm of their hands.
That's a beautiful thing.
And we're all trying to become that person as well.
We're trying to become the person who can hear that our partners are disappointed or we can hear that our partners see something in us that they're not happy with.
And we don't go down a rabbit hole.
No one likes to feel criticized,
But there's something specific that happens to someone who has high narcissistic traits that doesn't happen to other people.
So when we're talking about narcissism,
We're talking about behaviors,
Opinions,
And reactions that happen on a continuum or happen on a spectrum.
So it's important to remember that.
And so it is normal to react to criticism,
But it is completely unhealthy to behave as if the person we're speaking to is non-human or that we have the right to dehumanize someone else because we have been hurt or wounded or some past trauma has been activated within us.
This is the gray zone that we're trying to find.
So let's say you have a girlfriend and your girlfriend is spending a lot of time on Friday nights hanging out with some of her girlfriends and she comes in late into the morning hours,
Two or three o'clock in the morning,
And you two have decided that every Saturday morning you're going to get up and you're going to jog.
You're going to run.
But there seems to be this trend happening.
There is this pattern where your girlfriend who said with her mouth,
Made the intention and created this future reality with you that said,
Yes,
We're going to get up on Saturday mornings when we live together and we're going to go run.
And then when she moves in,
No bueno.
It doesn't happen.
Actually what ends up happening is your girlfriend ends up staying late at work,
Goes out to happy hour and doesn't come home till two o'clock in the morning.
And you're like,
What's up?
So the healthy person that you are says her words are not matching her actions and I care about her and I would really like to have a conversation around what I see happening.
Good for you.
You are exercising good,
Healthy boundaries.
You're recognizing when there's a conflict with someone that you care about,
You're acknowledging your emotions,
You're acknowledging that you're feeling vulnerable and you're really going out on a limb when you say,
I would really like to talk about what's been happening Friday into Saturday.
Now if you have a healthy girlfriend,
Then her response will be sure,
Babe,
What's up?
If you have a healthy girlfriend,
Then she'll chew on what you said and she'll think about it and she'll be able to see the conflict in her own behavior.
She'll be able to apologize.
She'll be able to see that you coming to her is actually because you want the two of you to be in a healthy place so that you're going out on a limb and she respects that and she welcomes that.
And what happens is next Friday,
The behavior changes and you end up actually jogging on a Saturday morning.
If it's a really healthy person,
Then she has integrity and her words are going to match her behavior.
They should have always matched her behavior anyway.
Now if your girlfriend is a narcissist,
Then what will happen is the image that she has of herself,
This grandiose image that she has of herself is going to clash with the image that you're presenting her.
So the external reality is now clashing with her interpersonal reality of self.
She is not going to be happy.
That creates tension.
That creates a sense of abandonment.
She is going to be triggered.
She's going to see you as a threat.
She's going to see you as someone who has now become an enemy.
Essentially what you're saying is,
No,
I'm not going to tolerate the fact that you said that when you moved in here,
We were going to jog on Saturday mornings.
And in fact,
You are now going out Friday nights drinking way too much and you're coming home drunk and I'm jogging by myself every Saturday morning.
And this is just not what I signed up for.
You're saying no.
The narcissist is going to hate that.
The narcissist is going to feel like you are the reason all of this anger has been stirred up within them.
You are not the reason this has happened.
The real reason is the conflict that the narcissist is holding on in their head that has to do with their perception of self.
A sign that your girlfriend is a narcissist is how she responds to your attempt to clear the air instead of boundary.
People who are more narcissistic than others recoil and react.
They become vindictive.
They become aggressive.
There could be screaming.
There could be yelling.
There could be throwing things.
It could really,
Really devolve quickly.
It could end up in some type of physical issue where they become combative.
There's really no telling how far down a rabbit hole a narcissist will go depending on what type of a narcissist you're dealing with.
Certainly a malignant narcissist is someone that you need to be very,
Very careful about.
So how she responds to your desire to set a boundary and say no is going to tell you a lot about what's happening within this person,
With how she sees you and how she even sees herself.
So if you're dealing with someone who is a high conflict personality,
They're going to have a very strong reaction to your no.
Like no,
This isn't happening.
This isn't what I signed up for.
Vindictiveness is a key indicator that you're dealing with someone who has high narcissistic traits.
Someone who becomes extremely over emotional and the emotions aren't matching the situation.
So it's not called for.
You came at this situation wanting to discuss something.
To you it's just like we need to get back on the same track.
But to this person,
They have literally felt attacked by your no.
In some cases,
You'll have someone just go cold.
She just stops talking to you.
Right?
Oh,
You want to go jogging?
You want to go jogging?
Okay.
You're going to go jogging right now.
And now you are being punished by this menacing attitude.
You are going to be made to feel guilty.
And if you had no right to approach her about a boundary violation,
You will end up being shamed.
You will end up being guilted.
You end up being coerced into feeling like it's your fault that you said,
Hey,
Wait a minute,
This isn't what I signed up for.
So they will turn the entire situation around on you.
She might go jogging,
But she's punishing you the whole way.
Right?
And so if she begins to punish you,
If she begins to stonewall you,
If she stops talking to you,
If she begins insulting you,
If she brings up stuff from the past to justify why she slept in,
Completely ignoring this idea because of the lack of accountability,
Because of the lack of introspection,
This idea that you literally said we were going to jog on Saturday mornings.
We went out,
We bought these sneakers,
We looked for a trail.
You have no idea that maybe this narcissist was just future faking.
You don't know.
But when you say,
Oh no,
No bueno,
You said this,
Now you're doing this,
That's not okay with me.
There's going to be a severe reaction if you're dealing with someone who has high narcissistic traits.
So what happens?
Why does a narcissist react so strongly to this type of very innocuous situation,
Which two level-headed healthy people could really resolve quite quickly with some awareness,
Some tenderness,
And some we understanding,
Looking at the big picture and really wanting to have a healthy relationship with,
And I'm sorry,
I don't know what got into me.
Thank you for sharing this with me.
And you know what?
You're right.
Next week is going to be better and stick to it.
Right?
So this really could have been resolved quickly.
Not so when it comes to a narcissist.
When you're dealing with a narcissist,
You're going to have late hour conversations well into the morning that go round and round and round.
They start off nitpicking you.
How dare you confront them about anything?
And before you know it,
You're apologizing for bringing to their attention something that you think should have been resolved easily.
You end up feeling guilted.
You end up feeling shamed.
And if you stay in this relationship long enough,
You actually think that you are the reason the narcissist got upset.
It's all your fault.
So why does a narcissist behave this way?
So I just want to read something to you.
So researchers David Chester and Nathan Dewall have discovered that narcissists react aggressively to interpersonal insult because of a heightened discrepancy between their grandiose self and the now threatened self.
The conflict between the two perceptions create tension and this tension is processed as aggression and then projected upon others.
So your no triggers them.
Narcissists are hypervigilant.
Researchers are suggesting that narcissists,
A big reason why people become narcissistic is because of hot and cold relationship styles,
Attachment styles to a parental figure.
So narcissists are people who are unable to form healthy bonds to their caretakers and oftentimes are very shamed and guilted and just couldn't figure out how to make their narcissistic parents happy.
And as a result,
Now to protect their fragile ego,
They have become hypervigilant.
So they're scanning the environment for the next possible attack.
And once they hone in on you,
Once you become that person who says no,
They're locked and loaded.
They have a missile ready to point in your direction at any point at any time where they feel slighted by you in any way.
So the number one word a narcissist hates to hear from you is no.
Let's say your narcissistic friend calls you at 2 a.
M.
And he says something like,
Hey dude,
I need a place to crash tonight because my wife just found out about my mistress.
You've known for quite some time that your friend is narcissistic.
He has exploited you before.
He's exploited your money.
He's exploited your care.
He's exploited your friendship.
He has put you in a position where you've had to lie for him,
Cover for him when he's out with his mistress and your wife is friends with his wife.
And he really has no empathy for how he's exploiting you,
How he's exploiting your wife,
How he's exploiting his wife.
No empathy,
No conscience really or very little conscience around the consequences of his action.
And so you don't want to allow your friend to sleep on your couch.
You immediately feel the impulse to say,
You know what,
You're a selfish son of a gun.
You don't care about anyone else but yourself.
You've got kids at home sleeping.
You probably had this horrible fight with your wife.
She found out about you,
Mistress,
And now you're coming to me.
You create this mess.
You know,
Go home,
Go crawl,
Go crawl in a hole somewhere.
Now that might be your impulse.
And I get it.
This is the thing,
Though,
When you're dealing with a narcissist that has this type of narcissistic injury that's tied to rejection,
Your no is going to trigger them.
And so we really have to come up with a more creative way,
At least I think so,
To deal with these type of people so that you don't become the object of their missile fire.
You don't become the person that they hone in on,
The person that they project all of their narcissistic injuries on.
Because what happens when you trigger someone like this who has this type of an injury,
You become the mother who abused them.
You become the brother who abused them.
You become the sister.
You become the father.
You become all of the people or any of the people that ever abused them in childhood.
You become that person.
They are unaware that this is what is happening.
And all that does is keep you rooted to this type of a spot with this type of a narcissist rather than help you transcend it.
So I'd like to talk about some of the things that we can do about it.
One of the scenario is let's say you have a mother-in-law who knew for months that her friends from Florida would be coming up flying to New York.
And on this particular day,
Out of the blue,
Your mother-in-law calls you and says,
Hey,
You know,
Suzy Q,
I'd like you to drive the kids over so my friends could see how cute my grandchildren are and see how much they love me.
Right?
And you're immediately turned off.
You and your children have had plans for weeks.
The kids are looking forward to these plans.
And your mother-in-law calls and says,
I want them here.
Now I want them here now.
Now just like Violet from Willy Wonka.
And your instinct might be,
Listen,
Lady,
Go scratch your nose.
You knew for months and you're calling me now.
I'm not dropping what I'm doing and I'm not,
I'm not stopping my kids plans to come make you look like a good grandmother.
You should have called me months ago.
You might want to do that,
But where is that going to get you?
Where is it going to get you?
Let's say you have a narcissistic boss who hands you a project at four o'clock and says,
I would like this done by five.
You might be tempted to say,
Excuse me,
You handed me a project at nine a.
M.
And told me you wanted that project done by five.
No,
This is not going to work.
You might be tempted to do that.
Why not?
It makes sense.
But we have to recognize when we're dealing with people who have high narcissistic traits,
The no is going to trigger them.
And if you're not a narcissist and they are a narcissist,
They're going to be gunning for you.
And you might not be able to really hold yourself up under what might happen next.
It might be very difficult from triangulation to smear campaigns.
Who needs it?
Right.
If you've ever had to deal with a smear campaign,
If you've ever been the target of someone's narcissistic rage,
I can tell you from experience,
It is exhausting.
You never know when it's going to end.
Eventually get to a point where let's just like,
OK,
Say whatever you want,
Like say whatever you want because you just can't fight it anymore.
But if there is a way to avoid that,
I think that is something that we should consider.
So I'd like to point out a few points.
I've written some notes that I don't want to forget.
So here we go.
So what can we do?
How do we deal with the high conflict personalities such as these people who have high narcissistic traits who see any form of no as a threat and a valid reason to pinpoint their aggression on you and punish you?
Number one,
It may not be your fault that this narcissist is a narcissist.
However,
Understanding that at the core of this personality is someone who fears rejection and fears abandonment and most often times had a really horrible,
Horrible childhood.
Not always.
There are some narcissists that are created through parental entitlement,
Parents who actually teach their children entitlement.
But in most cases,
Researchers will suggest that most narcissists have a very fragile ego due to some type of childhood trauma.
So reminding yourself that your mother-in-law,
Your boss and your friend,
This might be their background.
The one thing that it does is it depersonalizes what they're saying to you.
You don't have to take it so personally.
This is the way they are with everybody.
When you're dealing with a narcissist,
It feels like a personal attack and it can be difficult to remember.
This is just who they are.
So see if you can remember that.
Using language that is less ego insulting can also help prevent the vindictiveness that will happen when you say no to a narcissist.
So I use what I call the hamburger technique.
I learned about this many years ago and it works fabulous.
The goal,
However,
Is to remember to use it when your ego gets triggered by someone who's being narcissistic.
So this is how it goes.
So A,
Compliment the person first,
Stroke their ego a little bit and make sure that they feel seen and understood.
This helps them to feel like you're insulting them less because you don't want to slam the middle of their forehead with reality.
It's not going to work.
Remember what the researcher said.
The problem is the distinction or the separation of their perceptions of self.
So they have this inner perception and now you're offering them a second perception and there's a conflict there.
And so what you want to try to do is not stick your finger in that conflict.
You want to try to soften that conflict.
So stroking their ego,
Complimenting them first is step one.
Step two is slip in what your need is or what your goal is.
So what do you want to see happen?
If the answer is no,
Then the answer is no.
And all you're trying to do is soften the delivery of the no to lessen any unnecessary possible emotional retaliation.
Step three is you compliment the person again and begin to back out of the conversation in essence stealing the deal or stealing the no.
So for instance,
Your grandiose narcissistic friend who wants to sleep on your couch and upset your family,
Life is someone you need to say no to.
For instance,
Going back to the grandiose friend who thinks that he's entitled to call you at 2 a.
M.
,
Wake up your dogs,
Wake up your children,
Wake up your wife,
Cause chaos in your home,
The person who's entitled thinks they can do this to you is someone that you can use this hamburger technique on.
So for instance,
Layer one of the hamburger,
Wow,
You sound really upset.
I imagine that this is a difficult time for you.
I hope you can sort all of this out.
It is good you are looking for a way to create some space so you and your wife can calm down before speaking again.
You do have a way with words.
So you compliment.
Layer two is you hit them with a no.
At this time,
The kids are in bed and my wife would really be upset if I got out of bed and let you sleep on the couch.
I know you love me and you would not want my wife to be upset with me.
And for that reason,
It is best you maybe find a hotel to crash out for tonight.
Thank you for understanding.
There's your no.
The third level of the hamburger is you are a smooth communicator.
You're complimenting them again.
And I'm sure you and your wife will find resolution.
You know how to handle things and you will work this out.
I am sure.
So it was the delivery.
You're still saying what you need to say,
But you're saying in a way that's less insulting to their personal perception of themselves.
So my what I try to do is what I try to teach my clients and I walk this walk in my own life is focus on the end goal and not your ego.
So what do I mean by that?
It can be tempting to lash out at a narcissist and call them out for being manipulative and entitled.
It can be really difficult to not remind them that they are the reason people don't want to hang out with them.
It could be really difficult to not remind your mother-in-law of how selfish she's being.
It could be really difficult not to lash out at your narcissistic friend and say,
What is wrong with you?
If you weren't cheating on your wife,
If you weren't sneaking around with a mistress,
If you weren't doing this,
You wouldn't be calling me at 2 a.
M.
Dude,
This is not my problem.
It could be really,
Really tempting to do that.
It could be tempting to lash out at the boss and tell them that everybody in the office knows that they're a narcissist and everybody in the office resents them for being so entitled and so demanding and demonstrative.
But where is that going to get you?
It's only going to get you nowhere fast.
And it might end up causing a narcissist to really take issue with you because you said no in some way.
So focus on the end goal.
If you don't want the narcissist sleeping on your couch,
Come up with a delivery and clever ways to say no rather than allowing your own ego to want to remind him that it's 2 a.
M.
And your entire house is sleeping.
It won't be easy.
So it's never easy to tell a two-year-old no,
But it's a lot harder to tell a two-year-old adult no when they have means to hurt you,
When they have means to harm you,
Whether it's your boss,
Whether it's your friend,
Or whether it's your mother-in-law.
It's very different.
Even though they act like two-year-olds,
The consequences of telling a narcissist no are much greater than a two-year-old.
So be smart.
So you have to be wise enough to understand how a narcissist works in order to avoid unnecessary punishment.
Narcissists who perceive any form of rejection from others will react with vindictiveness.
Their hypervigilance ensures that an enemy will appear at some point in time,
And you must know that they are locked and loaded and ready to go at all times.
And so when you realize that narcissistic people,
People who are narcissism,
Are literally like they're on,
They're literally military missiles,
And they're waiting for the person that is going to trigger them.
And your no pulls that trigger.
You have to know that.
And so I just think it's so much wiser and so much smarter for those of us who are looking to avoid these types of conflicts with these high conflict personalities to come up with clever ways to avoid their punishment and their vindictiveness while still setting a healthy boundary.
It's my hope that the hamburger technique,
I use it all the time.
It's compliment,
Slipping what I want,
My end goal,
Compliment back out.
It's my hope that you use this technique to help you deal with the narcissist the next time you tell them no.
