Today's episode is a question and answer episode with Noelle Free.
Noelle Free is kind of my apprentice,
My apprentice type person.
Nalaya Chakana is laughing in the background,
You may remember her from episodes 100 and others.
I shared,
I think it was in the Dark Mask episode which is over a year old that I was looking for an apprentice,
Which I was last year.
And then I ended up hiring someone,
I don't have to go through the whole backstory,
But basically I kind of let go of that idea.
But then this guy,
Noelle Free,
Who's been a listener to the podcast,
Reached out.
We ended up connecting.
I felt I could relate with him a lot,
Especially reminded me of myself when I was younger.
I don't know how to say that without sounding like an old man.
But essentially I guess he's like an apprentice type person,
That's all you got to know.
And one thing that really impressed me about Noelle Free was that he had a lot of insightful follow up questions about some of my podcasts.
So after one of our conversations I thought we should record a podcast.
This is a question and answer.
Started about the Lover archetype episode,
But then we kind of moved into speaking about the dark feminine and like mother complex stuff.
We speak about the origins of darkness,
How men can relate to the anima,
And various thoughts about culture.
So this is a new type of episode.
I've said that a few times this season.
But I hope you enjoy.
Right now you're listening to episode 104,
A discussion on the Lover archetype and dark feminine and culture,
Featuring Noelle Free.
The Ruando podcast is an exploration of the unconscious and the game of life.
Be sure to visit ruando.
Com to get a preview chapter of my upcoming book,
Infinite Play,
And free access to my content library.
Enjoy the show.
So for the first question,
I want to ask you,
What is the lover archetype?
And where does it show up in a man's life?
The lover archetype is the part of someone's psyche,
Specifically for a man,
The part of him that relates to the feminine,
That can be relating to women,
Obviously,
This is what comes out when he relates to women intimately,
But even like his mom or like just women,
Any kind of woman.
It's also the part of him that relates to his feminine side or what Jung called the anima.
So this is where these are like the oxytocin driven emotions and behaviors and feelings,
The desire for connection,
The feelings of cooperation,
Even if you really want to get like a really deep into it,
Like when a man is with other men,
And he's willingly choosing to be in a follower role,
And he feels good about it.
It's also technically that archetype,
We don't have,
You know,
That's where it could get a little complicated.
But yeah,
It's just the part of him that enjoys love and connection.
So is it safe to say that it has a big role in relationships and not just to the feminine,
But other people,
Because the feminine is with emotion,
And might,
You know,
Use it to relate to others?
Is that a safe assumption?
Yeah,
It's the part,
It's the social part,
It's the part that cares about,
It cares about community and tribe,
And intimacy,
Like these things that maybe don't matter so much to like a reptilian brain,
Or are like rational brain that is just thinking about ideas like this is the part that cares about emotion,
And people.
And what does it mean to be disconnected from that part of yourself?
Or have it distorted?
If a guy is disconnected from his love archetype,
He's probably going to have pretty bad relationships,
You'll probably have a hard time being intimate.
He might seem like he always has his walls up around people,
Just finds it hard to connect.
And you see this a lot in guys who even are guys who are really smart,
For instance,
And they can understand things,
They can even understand how social dynamics should work or how attraction should happen.
But like,
They can't feel it like it's so unnatural to them.
Because these behaviors,
They're just disconnected from them.
Like they're not the impulses that would come from oxytocin are not feeding into their behavior naturally.
And it just seems like this just seems like a faraway thing is not internalized.
I was figured the animal Well,
You mentioned animal but I always figured out how to roll to play just because I'm Danima is very much shaped by our mother figure.
And ship that a man has what his mother is obviously because it dictates that.
So could there be childhood traumas that distort the love archetype in a man?
Definitely.
I mean,
Trauma could be maybe a heavy word that maybe there's not a better word for it right now.
Certainly,
A man or anyone's first imprint of relating with the feminine,
Specifically a man,
A boy is through his mother.
I mean,
His assumptions of what's normal behavior from a woman comes from his mom,
Which is why I see adult guys who maybe had a really needy mother.
And to him,
Neediness and women means love.
Or maybe they had like an absent mother or like a strict mom and like,
He sees that behavior as what is normal when he meets women later in his life.
And this is true for you know,
True for anyone,
Our early imprints tend to set the tone of what is normal because when you're a baby,
You have no idea what's normal.
You don't know what's right or wrong or good or bad.
Your parents or your caregivers are what kind of,
They're your gods when you're an infant.
And they're the ones who like tell you what is right and wrong based on what they do.
So a lot of us have these assumptions.
And yeah,
And well,
I would say,
I don't know if this is what you're getting at,
But I think you're familiar with the mother complex.
For a lot of guys,
If they can never free their perception of the feminine or how they relate to the feminine from how they relate to their mom or how their mom related to them when they were little,
They end up in these like patterns and repeating patterns of relationships,
Like basically dating their mom or like when they fall in love with someone,
Even if they were totally a man and totally in their power during the courtship phase,
Once they're intimate,
They become a boy because that's just how they know to relate to a woman they love.
That's how they related to their mom.
So part of maturity for a man and part of really like embodying his lover archetype and being free or freeing his lover archetype is learning how to relate to women in a way that is not relating to his mom.
And just piggybacking off of that,
Do you think that's also connected to the nice guy because the nice guy also stems from,
You know,
Mother issues and their wounds,
Animal.
What's the connection there?
Yeah,
Well,
That nice guy syndrome is a way of relating specifically to women,
Because that's the assumption with nice guy syndrome is,
Oh,
If I act nice,
Women will like me.
And that just like any thought,
Any unconscious thought that's been programmed into us probably came from childhood.
So like a guy who just recognized that if he's really nice and docile and not masculine and demure,
Oh,
His mom likes him or old ladies pinch him on the cheek or his teacher validates him,
His female teacher validates him,
Especially he grows up thinking,
Oh,
This is the way that women will like me,
Which definitely is not true in intimate relationships.
It's very interesting because I also find that society has a huge role to play in the making of the nice guy,
Not just mothers,
But mothers included,
But like just bringing up MGTOW,
Something that you said on the podcast was that men who go to MGTOW have,
They're on the hyper masculine end of the spectrum because they have this resentment towards women whereas nice guys are more on the other side of the spectrum,
But they also eventually get resentment from women.
So is this resentment that on one side pops up in men and then in women,
And then on the other side pops up in men,
Is that a result of like a man not being in his healthy polarity?
Because if you're not able to be in your polarity,
You're not able to effectively have fulfilling relationships and MGTOWs are usually the people who build that resentment in women,
Right?
And nice guys are the ones that have the resentment built inside of them.
Is that because of the polarity?
Because it's not there and they're not able to function properly with it?
Well,
I'm not sure exactly what I said before,
But I would say like,
You know,
MGTOW is almost a reaction to nice guy syndrome.
Like no guy would choose to go MGTOW if he has a healthy relationship with women.
Usually the MGTOWs are nice guys who realized they've been following the wrong script for a long time and their reaction is to go hating women or deciding they're never going to relate to women.
So they're trying to,
MGTOW guys are basically trying to be masculine without relating to the feminine at all,
Which is kind of like half of a magnet or it's like a left hand without a right hand.
Like it doesn't actually make sense,
Right?
I mean,
Maybe I'm not going to go ranting on MGTOW,
But like,
It's a kind of a way of giving up.
Neither one is actually relating with the feminine.
It's like one is saying,
One is trying to like be a woman,
Basically the nice guys,
Like they're trying to meet the feminine by being feminine.
The MGTOWs are trying to be masculine by themselves,
Which doesn't really work,
Right?
They can act a certain way and be a certain way,
But like,
It's not even as it work.
It's like,
It's kind of nonsensical,
You know,
A masculine doesn't make sense without feminine,
But essentially neither one is actually relating to the feminine with tension.
Like you need that separation for like polarity to exist.
I'm just like holding two magnets.
Like if there's no North and South pole,
You're not going to feel that pole between those two things.
And a nice guy might feel so uncomfortable holding like the opposite relating to the feminine.
So he jumps over to the other side.
A MGTOW guy is just half a magnet.
And what would you say is the best thing a guy can do to fix it?
You have to be okay.
I mean,
This is with any kind of polarity being okay with being the opposite of whom you're relating with,
Like through the masculine lens of reality and the feminine lens of reality very often are different.
Sometimes they're the opposite.
And can you still be in connection with someone who is feeling different feelings than you?
Because I mean,
That's the whole point.
That's the whole point of like these kinds of intimate relationships is that there's a certain specialization of resources,
Like one in a two person connection.
One person is holding down the testosterone driven virtues.
The other person's holding down that oxytocin driven virtues.
Like they're both important,
Right?
And if one person's by themselves,
They would have to do both for themselves.
But especially in a community,
Those oxytocin virtues are particularly useful,
Which is why it's kind of hard for anyone to be in their feminine by themselves,
Like the feminine,
Because it's not when someone's really in their feminine,
When they're really being driven by oxytocin,
They're not,
It's harder to also be looking out for your security,
Which is why you see women who have had to fend for themselves,
Or they became independent really young and not,
Not in an even a bad way,
But like they have to run their own business or,
You know,
Traveling by themselves.
And they've learned to distrust men because men they've related with couldn't be,
They couldn't rely on them for security or the masculine.
They have a hard time getting into their feminine because they've learned to be their own security for so long.
It seems like a lot of it is physically physiological.
That just takes me back to the example you brought up with Odysseus and the sirens.
While you were talking about that,
I also,
I was watching some semen retention orgasm control videos.
And I just,
I made a little connection between if we're talking about arousal control,
A man tries his hardest to get close to orgasm,
But not peek over to where he ejaculates.
So is the orgasm,
A man losing his polarity to the dark feminine or the sirens,
The dark feminine,
While the sirens are obviously the dark feminine that are calling the men in to consume them when it comes to orgasm control is the reason that that's such a good metaphor for polarity because orgasm is our inner feminine.
It's where we let go,
Where we release our tension and we just allow our bodies to relax.
What do you think?
Yeah,
Essentially.
I mean,
I just want to make clear,
I don't think it's bad to orgasm necessarily.
It's not like you're giving up everything,
But a guy who's so quick to release all the time because basically when you're,
When you're aroused and when you're being stimulated and you're cultivating arousal and you're feeling more and more sensation in your body,
You're increasing the physical tension in your body.
And when you're doing that with a woman,
You're going,
It's like,
You're stretching.
I mean,
It feels like that in your body.
It feels like you're stretching a rubber band.
Like the,
The more you feel pleasure,
The more you want to let it go.
And yeah,
I think that's a,
It is,
It's a great metaphor,
But also if there is one,
So I mean,
Obviously I'm in favor of arousal control and semen retention,
But I think a lot of the,
A lot of people I kind of over-hype the benefits,
I think personally,
But one thing I I'm very sure of,
And it's like,
There's one of the benefits that I think is like,
Like this is something I'll bet everything on is when a guy is cultivating arousal control,
When he's having a lot of sex and not coming,
He is just so willing and able to engage with the feminine.
Like it becomes so interesting to be with women,
But not be a woman.
It's like so interesting to be a man with women because your body's like,
We have to impregnate and it's like,
It's like the,
The easiest,
If all of this brain stuff is hard to grasp or like you have a lot of nice guy conditioning,
Just having sex and not coming will kind of put you in that mode because your body will force you to be that way.
It's like your body wants to complete the cycle.
Just keep doing it,
Keep doing it,
Keep teasing her.
Yeah.
And then finally,
To go back to the Odysseus thing,
Your body,
Your,
Your genes want you to crash against the rocks in a sense,
Like they're willing for you to sacrifice your energy for the sake of passing on.
Like they're like your,
Your genes basically don't care if you die,
As long as you spread your genes,
Those genes enough.
Right.
So like,
You know,
That's the whole Daoist idea behind like why it's so energetically costly to come often being able to handle that tension and like,
Be like Odysseus where you hear the sirens calls and you enjoy it without crashing on the rocks.
That is the skill.
And that's why I opened that episode with that story.
Can we talk a little bit about Daoist and orgasms?
Sure.
I,
I've been practicing my practice and is the valley orgasm a thing?
Is that something that exists?
A non ejaculatory orgasm?
Yes.
Personally,
I'll be upfront.
Like it's something I've experienced,
But it's not something I experienced regularly.
As far as like a full blown orgasm,
Not to say that it can't happen or that other people can't,
Or that I won't on a regular basis.
Eventually.
What I do experience personally is kind of like a mini orgasm,
Which I can experience many times,
As long as I don't ejaculate basically.
And and I'll actually quote John Gray,
Who wrote my editor for Mars Women and for Venus.
When he was on my podcast,
We ended up speaking like half the time on orgasms,
Which is not what I expected.
But he was basically sharing,
I think a very simple way of understanding it is like,
If you keep coming close to the edge,
You'll,
You'll have these little blips of,
Of,
Of sensation.
And if you pull back and you keep coming closer,
Like those waves would get a little bigger and a little bigger.
It's like,
You're like building up energy and then like it goes higher and higher and higher.
And eventually it reaches the level that is close to a full orgasm without ejaculating.
That's interesting.
It's almost like we've been conditioned more to,
To focus on our genital areas instead of our full body.
Because it seems like now in order to achieve a full body orgasm,
It's,
It's in the title,
But you have to bring the energy to other parts of your body.
And as someone who's just started to practice this,
I'm feeling sensations in places I never thought I would feel,
You know,
Like that's great.
Usually when you think about sex,
You think about your penis and maybe a little bit of your upper body,
But I felt like surgeons of electricity going down to my foot in my head,
Down my back.
I don't know.
I feel like this should be common knowledge,
You know male anatomy,
You should,
You should know how your orgasms work.
Yeah.
Well,
To most of the world has had created this like reductionist view of the body.
It's like,
Oh,
Sex happens with your genitals or it's even,
Even like,
You know,
In fitness,
Like actually I'm not going to go there,
But basically we look at the body as like these specific parts,
As opposed to like this big holistic thing.
Like if someone is sensitive enough,
A brush on their shoulder should be able to give them goosebumps in their legs.
Like that's something if you're really in your body,
That's something that's kind of normal.
This is kind of normal for children who haven't learned to view or separate their body parts into these isolated pieces.
And and actually,
Yeah,
To your point,
I mean,
For,
For guys who like want a tip on lasting longer or feeling more pleasure in sex or both at the same time,
And they don't want to learn the microcosmic orbit or things like that.
The tip I give so many people is when you're having sex,
Think about your hands and your feet,
Just like notice your hands and your feet.
And just doing that,
That,
That awareness just will bring the sensation instead of just localizing your genitals,
It'll spread to your whole body.
So you have like this whole,
Just,
Just being aware of it allows like your body to open and you can feel it everywhere.
And just that alone will allow you to feel sensation throughout your body.
And it's like,
If you focus on the furthest parts of your body or extremities,
It'll allow that to spread.
It'll also give you more space.
Like,
Whereas,
You know,
When your,
When your dick is full in quotes,
Like that's when you have to discharge,
Right?
You can't,
You can't handle anymore.
That's when you come.
But if you spread it out to your whole body,
You can imagine that now your container from sensation is like,
You know,
Your,
Your body's obviously a lot bigger than your dick.
There's more space.
And that by itself is a great arousal control technique,
But it's also something I've noticed just makes my body feel a lot better.
Instead of just enjoying the pleasure in my genitals,
I can feel some,
Some sort of pleasure throughout my whole body.
And in your personal opinion,
Do you think that has an effect on a man's psyche?
Like just having all your energy focused on your penis instead of being able to spread it out in terms of your ability to,
To ground emotions and things like that?
Yeah.
I mean,
I think one of the reasons why I'm so into arousal control is like,
It's nice to have people last longer in bed.
That's great.
But it's almost like this skill is useful for handling any kind of tension,
Emotional tension or whatever.
Like if you get stressed out about something,
Like you're in traffic and like everything in your body,
Like crunches up,
That's like,
Who's to say,
You're not going to do that in bed or who's to say that,
You know,
That's not the same thing is coming too soon.
Like just like overreacting to a small amount of sensation,
Like being able to handle a lot of sensation and stay grounded is the skill of lasting is lasting long in bed,
But it's also the skill of handling feelings.
And when you speak about grounding or in like the,
The things that make it testosterone driven individual useful to a society,
A tribe,
What makes masculine,
What,
Why masculinity is important very often is handling tension,
Handling tension for the sake of the people who are in their feminine,
Being able to handle nature and protect the pregnant women and children like that's,
You know,
We're,
We're speaking metaphorically here obviously,
But it's the same type of skills,
The same types of feelings.
Yeah,
I've always equated tension with sexual tension because it's pretty much the same thing.
I think I learned a lot of it from Fearless Man,
Brian Bigan,
I think you,
I don't know if you've had him or you've had someone else from Fearless,
But he talks a lot about that too.
Yeah,
I've done a few collaborations with Brian back in the day.
What is your definition of the dark feminine?
Usually the dark feminine,
The antisocial expressions of the feminine.
I can give examples more easily than I can come up with a concrete definition,
But you know,
Manipulation,
Emotional distress.
It's like,
I'm thinking of like,
I don't feel so Louis CK,
But he's got a bit about how,
You know,
Boys versus girls,
Like boys will break your stuff.
Men will break your arm,
But women will take a shit in your heart,
Right?
It's like,
It's like a different,
It's a different kind of control and damage.
And I mean,
The dark masculine is something I think about a lot more,
Which is like this animalistic side of the testosterone part of our psyche.
So like the perhaps unpleasant or animalistic or antisocial aspects of the masculine.
So I would say the same thing for the feminine.
It just comes out differently.
Whereas the dark expressions of testosterone might be in violence,
In taking,
In power.
The dark feminine can be the same.
And we could even put in that category if we want,
Like some of that taboo desires of women,
Like to be on the receiving end of a rape fantasy,
We could put that in the category of the dark feminine as well.
I think most people,
When they think of it and like when men think of it,
Practically,
They're thinking about like the bad things women can do to a man or a person.
And that's usually in the realm of emotional manipulation.
Why do you think it exists?
Because the dark masculine is necessary for killing,
For protecting,
Or you need that darkness inside of you,
You know,
To take care of your tribe or just your family in general.
So what is the purpose of the dark feminine?
What is it here to do?
That's a good question to feed into this.
I mean,
The darkness in either the darkness that's within us all exists for a purpose,
Right?
It exists,
As you pointed out,
It's typically survival purposes.
Like there are certain behaviors that we call dark because they don't fit our current society's sense of right and wrong,
Right?
Into the 21st century,
No one thinks,
Oh,
Killing is okay.
Right.
But in the stone age,
No one thought killing wasn't okay.
Because sometimes you just had to.
That was just,
That was just how it is.
So like the things that we call dark are basically survival impulses,
Or like their behaviors that have been useful for survival and replication for thousands of,
Thousands upon thousands,
Millions of generations,
Even going before humans existed.
And they just don't happen to fit in with our social constructs right now.
So are they dark?
They're not necessarily obsolete.
In society?
Society has probably decided they're obsolete,
But like,
Should society break down,
Men will have to kill.
So to go back to the questions,
Like the dark masculine,
This craving for power,
This desire to dominate,
This desire to kill your enemies and rape their women.
Like these are all taboo things.
They're not things you can just talk about or like things that you can express or should you not even say that you should,
But like,
They're not things that you,
That are accepted.
But to our stone age ancestors and previous,
They were very effective strategies for furthering their genes.
Like the caveman who was willing to club the other caveman and take their women spread more of his genes,
You know,
Fast forward thousands and thousands of years,
Genghis Khan you know,
Has,
I think I looked this up,
Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants right now.
You know,
He had over a thousand children.
He's one of the most successful,
His genes were some of the most successful genes that we know of today,
All through dark impulses.
He,
He,
He,
He wiped out entire ethnic groups and had sex with all of their women like that.
Those are dark impulses.
So bringing this to the dark feminine,
What is the dark feminine?
They are behaviors that are related to the feminine related to oxytocin driven estrogen driven impulses that are particularly beneficial for survival,
But don't necessarily fit what's socially acceptable.
So actually I think that's,
That's,
I'm glad you asked that question because that's probably the best definition I've come up with just now with my,
With my rambling,
Like all of those things,
Like whether it's like one of the,
One of the,
One aspect of the dark feminine that for a long time,
Like made me really feel like weird is the concept of war brides.
Have you heard of this?
Is it where a conqueror conquers someone else and takes their wife?
Yeah.
So the idea of war brides is basically a woman's family was just slaughtered and eventually she'll fall in love with a guy who killed her family.
And from the perspective of the guy that has just been killed,
That's like a really depressing thought like,
Oh,
If some guy kills you and takes your,
Your wife,
She's going to eventually fall in love with him.
And then,
You know,
It relates to Stockholm syndrome as well.
Like falling in love with your captors.
Those are really dark ideas because they so do not fit our ideas of rationality and what's socially acceptable.
Like,
It doesn't make sense.
And a woman,
Even in,
Or anybody in this cap and anybody in that situation,
Especially Stockholm syndrome,
It doesn't make sense.
Zoom from the outside of person,
A hostage might be like,
Why the hell did I fall in love with my captors?
But these are genetic behaviors that for thousands of years were very useful for survival.
Like if you were abducted by a stronger,
More dominant set of barbarians,
You better love them because then now you're relying on them.
The woman who's the whole war brides thing,
Dark feminine,
Like her family was just slaughtered.
That's terrible,
But her best chance of survival and even more than that,
Her best chance at creating a fit young that will go on to survive is to mate with her captors.
So that's why she naturally falls in love with them.
And this is kind of like the dark side of the lover archetype to like,
Love is not always this light and flowery angelic thing.
Like there is a dark side to love even like in many ways,
Love is a spell.
And that doesn't mean it's bad or anything to be feared,
But it's something that people should know when they enter love,
When they express the lover archetype,
Like they can be fooled by it.
They can you know,
It is something and on the flip side is something that needs to be cultivated just like just like any reality.
I thought of something while you were talking about this.
So the dark feminine is are those aspects that you know,
Are help us survive,
But they're not necessarily they don't necessarily work with society.
So is the dark feminine's role to weed out the weak masculine to kind of eat them,
Which would be the sirens causing the weaker men to be assured and you know,
Just test their masculinity constantly push it.
Kind of like shit test almost when it comes to polarity and dating.
Is it?
Yeah,
We can we can say that.
I mean,
Yeah,
Essentially,
Like there's this thing in biology called Bateman's principle,
Which basically I mean,
Basically it says,
This is a much simplified version of it.
But basically,
It says that there's a greater spread between the winners and losers of males than females,
As is true for many different species,
Not all species sometimes is reversed.
But like mammals are for humans,
Like the primates,
Let's say that the top the top males will have many children typically and the bottom males will have zero whereas with females,
No matter what their status is,
All females will typically produce a child every every mating season,
For instance.
And what this means is like,
If your high status is way better to be a male,
If your low status is way better to be a female,
Just just in terms of genetic success.
So if you end if you're low status male,
You're going to have no genetic success,
Basically.
So that's essentially the nice guys are the big towers who like,
You know,
They cannot compete with the other males or they're choosing not to compete.
And what determines whether they can compete or not how they react to women or how women react to them.
So in a sense,
This is maybe maybe a more nerdy way of looking at what you just said is like,
Hey,
These tests are deciding where the bar is like,
Oh,
You failed the test.
Well,
You're not mating worthy.
And those guys don't pass on their genes.
And it is a it is a in a sense of way that women clear out the next generation of weak men.
And I want to say this because I could I could imagine a MGTOW person taking this and like running and turning this into more resentment or even red pill guys be like,
This is why you can't trust women.
You know,
I think it's a beautiful thing.
Actually,
If you're a man,
If you're a man right now listening to this,
And maybe you know,
You don't get laid a lot and you're just thinking,
Oh,
I'm at the bottom and this is making you mad or whatever,
Making you feel whatever feelings.
Just know that for human males,
It's very easy to move in the hierarchy,
Right?
Which is why I don't get the MGTOW thing.
It's just like,
Yeah,
Maybe you're at the bottom,
Right?
Maybe you've been miseducated in how to relate to women,
But you can learn how to move up the hierarchy.
Like gorillas can't do that.
Like you should be grateful.
You're a human being gorillas.
If you're a small male gorilla and you can't fight the other gorillas,
You're fucked.
There's nothing you can do about it.
But if you're a guy who grew up with nice guy syndrome or a mother complex,
Or you just,
You're not,
You know,
Genetically good looking or whatever you can do,
There's so many things within your control can have you rise up to the hierarchy and you can be the stud that is desired by many women.
Like it is well within your,
Within your possibilities.
It doesn't matter what you look like.
It doesn't matter,
You know,
Whatever,
Like you have that ability,
Which is why I think this MGTOW thing is so,
It's such like a,
Such a pansy way of looking at the world.
Like you're going to give up just cause you're at the bottom of the hierarchy.
Like get out of here.
Like,
Come on,
Like take advantage.
Anyway,
I don't mean to rant forever,
But it's running away from the same addiction.
Go on,
Man.
It's like,
It is that though.
It's it's,
It's men who have been rejected or hurt by women.
And instead of facing them,
They choose to run away from it.
And instead of facing the issue,
You're just walking sidestepping it because eventually you're going to have to interact with women.
If you're going to hope to spread your genes as a man in this life and that,
That drive is always going to be there.
You're always going to want to interact with women.
So it just makes no sense.
It's like a temporary phase.
I think,
I think the word pansy was adequate.
Yeah.
I was going to say pussy,
But I didn't want to get that.
I didn't want to get that conflated with the glorious,
Glorious pussy.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I don't think we're talking about the lower archetype anymore.
If you do have any other,
You know,
Feel free to ask whatever you want.
So I listened to the social breaking,
Social constructs episode and what I took from it,
A lot of social norms are arbitrary and that they change from culture to culture.
And it's really more the society that determines them.
So in fitting in with norms that don't agree with the person you are,
Who you are as a person,
Is that something that could make a person sick psychologically in adapting to a society that's maybe not,
Not in line with who you are as a person?
I think just like forcing any animal to go against his instincts,
It'll,
It'll feel bad.
Like you know and we have limited,
We have a limited ability to go against our instincts.
We can retrain new instincts and that's what societal indoctrination does.
But if there's something that like is really true to you and you're constantly suppressing it and fighting it,
Eventually it'll come out in some unconscious way.
And that's essentially a dissociated archetype.
So yeah,
I mean societies aren't bad and I don't want to go in a hundred percent individualistic mode that like,
Oh,
Your personal impulses are always better than what society tells you.
I mean,
I used to think that honestly when I was younger and I think that's more of like a liberal progressive young person's view.
I do see a lot of value in some level of not necessarily conforming,
But like finding a tribe that fits you because being isolated,
Being like this single unit all by yourself that like consumerism has turned us into,
Like that's not healthy either.
But yeah,
I mean,
I,
You know,
If you're constantly,
You know,
Say like you want to explore the world or like you have,
It's something I hear a lot,
People reach out to me a lot about is like they have these strong sexual desires,
But they grew up in a religious household where that is not okay and they feel evil for it.
Like that feeling bad about who you are,
Which is essentially what shame is,
Is not ever useful.
Like it never,
It never yields anything positive.
It never yields anything pleasant.
It's always in some form of,
It's always some form of damaging.
Yeah,
That's,
That's what I was getting at.
I,
Because it,
I noticed that even with the,
We're talking about men,
Women,
Polarity,
Masculine,
Feminine,
Even in that the social norms of like,
Us so much and the way it manifested so in society,
Like a lot of the,
Especially 2020,
I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news,
But throughout social media,
It's just been a constant back and forth between gender roles and how men should be behaving and how women should be behaving.
I feel like that's just because our norms are outdated and in need of updating.
But the update,
You know,
Where,
Where that's,
That's,
That's where we got to get to.
It's hard to come by.
Like nobody really knows what's right.
But I also feel like it can come from the individual because we have this union inside of,
Of divine masculine and feminine energies.
That's not present right now.
It's I feel like that's a global shift waiting to happen.
Just those,
Those outdated social norms coming into the present day.
It is tough because something you mentioned earlier was that some dark masculine impulses are outdated,
Right?
Like we,
Most men don't actually need,
If you live in a first world country,
You don't need a lot of those impulses and now it'll throw you in jail,
Even though it was what allowed your ancestors to survive.
That is true.
And it is true.
A lot of a lot of masculine impulses are not necessarily needed the way they were before.
That's just the fact.
But that doesn't mean suppressing them is necessarily good because we still have this wiring and basically what's happening is what's happened through history is there are certain like masculine feminine traits that were useful.
So they became prominent in men and women.
Society tried to codify it in different ways.
Like,
Oh we like when we moved out of the stone age,
We recognize,
Oh,
Men who are strong are more useful.
And then they said,
Oh,
Men always have to be strong and they can never feel emotion.
Like that became codified in certain cultures or subcultures or like women have to be submissive all the time.
Like it basically took a natural impulse that was true sometimes.
And they said,
Well,
Now it has to be true all the time.
So they kind of,
Even though they were going the direction with nature,
They made it so strict that they were no longer in line with nature.
And then obviously,
As we see through the last thousands of years,
These ideas,
Which have been disconnected from nature now have been taken to extremes.
They've caused depression.
They've used the news to justify harming people or doing things that are not natural to people.
And then now we're seeing kind of a backlash against those conservative ideas where like the postmodernist ideas like,
Oh,
Gender is completely a construct.
Like,
Oh,
Whatever you believe that's that's reality.
Like nothing is,
And now we're like further and further disconnecting from nature to the point where like people think that gender is just a thing that you can make up,
Which is also not true.
But yeah,
Anyway,
People are confused.
It's kind of like the,
It's like our rational minds have like spun out of control in creating this world.
That's not necessarily connected to real reality,
Material reality.
I think the major thing with that is that we need to go to one side of the spectrum in order to understand it before shifting to the other,
And then maybe coming down to a concrete truth because there are,
You know,
Truth isn't objective.
I mean,
It's who knows,
But you know,
We need to understand if we were talking about a dualistic idea,
We need to understand both sides in order to come to a medium that works.
And I feel like that medium would be the new set of social norms.
And I feel,
I just feel like the world's in for a big change in the next couple of years.
Definitely see that.
Yeah.
Cause the way it is right now is definitely not stable.
And yeah,
I mean,
To be a little philosophical,
If there is an objective reality,
There's no way that we can know for sure that we know it.
Right.
Cause we have our subjective perceptions.
So like whether there is like a perfect middle ground or like a perfect set of social norms,
We'll never know.
But it's just natural through culture for like social norms to swing back and forth and hopefully match up in some way with the,
With the times.
Because it is true,
Even though I'm obviously,
You know,
Very in favor of men being masculine and being in touch with the masculinity,
It is true that we don't really need it as much as 3000 years ago.
It doesn't mean we don't need it at all.
And you know,
Even in,
It might be outdated from a survival function,
But our sexual functions still follow this,
Right?
Like women are still attracted to this in men because for thousands and thousands of generations,
Those were the men you wanted to sleep with the ones who were really masculine.
So men,
Women are still attracted to that.
And men still feel good when they express that women still feel good when they're in their feminine and they're safe.
So that's just how we are.
Do you have any ideas as to anything that could come about in the next 10 years?
I personally feel like,
And men,
Like you said men are still masculine.
Women are still attracted to that.
They're also still attracted to a feminine woman,
But it's like,
We don't need those masculine traits as much as we once did.
However,
We're starting to use more of our feminine side more in terms of like being in a society.
You know,
That's,
That's the whole liberal agenda,
Just making sure everybody's heard and represented and has their side heard.
Maybe it turns out that men just become more feminine while holding their masculinity.
I don't know.
I'm just speculating,
But yeah,
I don't think there's ever going to be a family member.
A fully stable thing is like,
Let's say a couple of decades ago when Robert Bly was prominent or that kind of men's work was prominent.
Like there's a men's work or men's development is all about getting in touch with their feelings.
Basically like the men in the fifties were totally disconnected from that part of themselves.
So in the sixties and seventies,
Men softened up in our generation in the eighties and nineties and two thousands men have gotten too soft in general.
So like you have all these guys that are trying to learn how to be hard again,
Basically.
And we might see the,
I mean,
And now probably in the next decade,
You'll have a lot more,
I mean,
Especially with like red pill being prominent and stuff,
You'll probably see a lot more guys like going hard and maybe there's going to be another backlash.
I don't know.
It might just go back and forth with smaller and smaller cycles forever until we merged with machines or something.
I could see it as like a man.
Men were masculine and it worked because they didn't really have to get in touch with their feelings.
They were more around other men.
You know,
As a tribe,
You were hunting and then you come around to the men who became soft in the nineties and nineteen hundreds and they just became more in tune with their emotions,
More aware,
More empathic.
And now that it's on the other side of the spectrum,
It's shifting to men who are maybe masculine while being conscious of their emotions.
Unlike the first iteration,
Which is just masculine men who weren't,
Who didn't have so much need for their emotions.
But now in the society that we're in as men,
We kind of have to have that,
Those emotions in check because we are interacting more with women and not just men.
It's kind of like,
It's kind of like David Data called stage three men.
And like,
Yeah,
I mean,
And it might maybe a good analogy or a good,
Another opposite example of this is like when women started going,
Entering the workforce,
They had to activate their masculine in a way that maybe they hadn't so much when all women were housewives.
So nowadays or in recent decades,
Most women,
Even feminine women are pretty in touch with their masculine.
They've had to adapt because now they have to earn their own income and like handle their own in the corporate world.
And now you see,
We're given like the cultural backlash and these changes and forces.
Men are basically having to learn how to be feminine more to work with women and to,
You know,
Uh,
Match the new social shifts of what is okay or not.
Uh,
Like guys have to,
And actually,
You know,
When Robert Glover was on my podcast,
He said like,
Even though male millennials get a lot of shit for being weak or being nice guys more than previous generations,
Like millennials are the most empathic men.
Like in general,
Like our generation is the most,
Uh,
I mean,
I don't know if you're generation Z,
But like basically same,
Same,
Same idea.
Like younger people,
Younger men are the most aware of their feelings of any generation,
Even the ones who like don't think about it.
Like,
And he was saying how,
You know,
Young guys dress better than guys did,
You know,
A couple of decades ago.
They're just,
They're just a more of more aware of these feminine things,
Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
And in fact,
It's just a sign that like we've adapted as a,
As a culture,
As a,
As a species for the new type of social structure that we have.
Doesn't mean we should throw out everything,
But you know,
Yeah,
We men have become more in touch with the feminine side.
Culturally.
There's a lot of big changes in the horizon.
I'm excited,
Man.
I'm excited to see what the world has in store.
2020 was I was,
I was just always following the news and I was on,
At one point I was on one of the spectrums of between,
You know,
Conservative Republican and Democrats liberals here in America.
So I,
For a good time,
I was,
I was on that duality and then I was able to kind of step out from it and see,
See it as a masculine feminine distortion on either side.
And I just,
I just feel like there's,
There's a fix that's going to come either by a social event or God forbid another COVID,
But who knows?
I just,
You know,
I'm just,
I'm,
I'm excited.
I feel like there's another revolution coming in terms of men and women,
Sexuality,
All that.
Probably.
Yeah.
I think there's going to be some sort of correction,
Like between masculine feminine or like liberal and conservative forces,
Like in the last century,
Society has generally become more and more liberal.
Like if you think compare like 1900 to 2000,
Like world societies have become way more liberal,
But when you look at the sixties,
Which was a huge spike in liberality,
You saw a backlash in the seventies and eighties of like switching to conservatism.
And like,
Now we see like same thing again.
Like you know,
All of these civil rights for let's say LGBTQ has been great,
Has been positive,
But it's gone so far that now we're seeing this backlash with young people being like,
Wait,
No,
We actually like our biological polarity.
You're like,
There's beneficial things here.
You're always going to see a correction.
Like there's no,
I don't know if we can ever determine what the perfect balance is,
But you're always going to see the swing back and forth.
And it seems like we're,
It seems like young people are actually swinging conservative.
Not that I follow politics that much,
But like you see this,
Like a lot of people,
You know,
The walk away thing for the democratic party,
Or like a lot of people of color are becoming more conservative in their politics.
Cause like they can see things have gone too far.
It's a lot of nurture versus nature.
And just as it,
I feel like as it keeps shifting on the pendulum,
It just becomes more mixed.
We get closer and closer to something to a truth maybe.
But yeah,
That's yeah.
Uploading our consciousness to the internet.
That's probably what we're,
That's the truth.
Elon Musk has it,
Right?
Yeah.
Cool,
Man.
Any other questions?
This was fun.
This was great.
Yeah,
It was.
Dark,
Feminine or anything.
I think we had a lot of good things.
No,
I think that's it.
I had a lot of questions down too,
But within like the first 20 minutes while you were ranting,
You kind of hit all of them and I was like,
Shit.
It worked out great.
Cool.
Awesome,
Man.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's do this again sometime.
Yeah,
Dude.
Enjoy your morning,
Man.
Hey,
Hi,
You guys,
It's Leigh Martin with voters Fabianson.
My name is
