152 Ken Blackman: 7 Stages Of Expression

51:48

51:48

152 Ken Blackman: 7 Stages Of Expression

by Ruwan Meepagala

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talks

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Ken Blackman coaches people in relationships, communication, and human dynamics. We met back in the old days when we were both a part of a group that turned out to be a cult. We reconnected recently via one of his writings that resonated with a challenge I've been feeling regarding being seen. We talk about the good ole cult days, navigating traps in the personal development industry and media, and sharing your truth. Please note: This track may include some explicit language.

Relationships Dynamics Visibility Personal Development Media Truth Transformation Self Esteem Ethics Authenticity Personal Growth Relationship Dynamics Personal Transformation

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Transcript

Mr. Blackwind, It's been a while. Great to see you. It's been a minute. It's great to see you, Man. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess the last time we spoke was the last time you're on my podcast, Which I think was five years ago or four years ago. And a lot of changes since, I guess, For both of us, I actually didn't know you got married until kind of recently. And I've seen you lovingly holding a baby. Yeah. Yeah. It made one. That's amazing. Yeah. Thanks. So it's funny. I've been on social media very little in the last year, But you came up twice. And both times, I log in to answer a message and something of yours is up at the top. One was where you were addressing the vice doc where you were taken out of, Which maybe we could talk about later. And the second was a post from, I think also five years ago or a long time ago that I guess I and many people commented on. I think it was titled The Seven Stages a Coach Goes Through. I don't know how it resurfaced. I think you hit like on a comment I left five years ago. So it obviously popped up on my thing. And it's funny that day, Which I think was like a week and a half ago, I was kind of depressed because I was kind of, My birthday had passed. I don't know if it was because of blues or something, But I realized like, I've been going through this thing for maybe a year, Maybe since I found out I was going to have a baby. I don't know if it's related or not about being seen of like this weird thing of like, I want to be seen, I don't want to be seen. I have shame around ways I felt about it in the past. And even though your post was kind of addressing something slightly different, I felt like every stage resonated with like, There's a time I didn't want to be seen, There was a time where I wanted to be seen, But in such like a callous way that I actually feel ashamed of how brash I was in places, Be it online or socially. Anyways, I felt like I had to talk to you because it just seemed like a serendipitous meaningful thing that came up. I mean that topic in itself is, I deeply resonate with like the mixed feelings and my relationship to visibility, Man. That's a whole topic in itself. Yeah. Especially with, Especially with, You know, Everything that's been going on. Yeah. Well actually, So how has, How has it been with you? Are you referring to the one taste stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So I let's, Can I, We can go either way cause I definitely, If we don't start with you and your relationship to visibility, I definitely want to bookmark it and come back to it. Cause I want to hear about it. That's the big piece that I have on my notes. So we're definitely going to cover that. Okay, Good. Well, So I, You know, My struggle is that I, So even going back before one taste, There's, There's the people that I trained with who simultaneously, Like I, They, They helped make me the man that I am in a lot of positive ways. And simultaneously they're also such corrupt, Um, Uh, Genuinely harmful human beings that I don't even like to talk about. Like I don't, I don't name them because I wouldn't even want people to go check them out. So they're kind of the black sheep of even of you, Uh, You know, Of the industry, Even within, Even within the clitoral stroking industry, They're the black sheep of even that. So, So I have, I struggle with how I talk about my origin story. Like my origin story is rich and there's a lot of stuff to it, But there's such mixed, You know, Mixed things about it that, That I, I have, I kind of skirted around it. I actually think you've done a fantastic job of just owning it, Own owning like the, At least the part of your origin story that I know about, Which is, Yeah, I was in a sex cult, You know, And, Uh, And being willing to like the, The level of candor that you bring to that topic. I, I've just been really kind of impressed and inspired by, Um, But, Um, Like wanting visibility, Wanting to be, To be seen, Wanting to be recognized, Wanting fame, And then shying away from it and feeling embarrassed about it, Feeling ambivalent about it, Just wanting to be invisible and all that's like, All that stuff is, Is very, Very up for me. Yeah. It's been, I mean, It took a lot of years to get to this point and I still feel like I do struggle with parts of it where I just felt like, Especially when I was starting as a coach and I wanted, Uh, My only credential was one taste, Which I was also calling a call. So it was like this, It was like, How can I, Yeah, I mean, You get it, Right. It was very challenging. I think eventually I do feel good about some of the appearances I've had. I didn't like the way some certain things were edited, But yeah, It is the same thing as you. It's something that really made me who I am. And unfortunately most people can't really understand. I mean, People like to put things in a good or evil category. And I mean, I, Every time there's an appearance, I get a lot of hate mail to my website about kind of silly things or strolling me. But like the fact that I speak not extremely negatively about a cult experience makes a lot of people angry. And honestly, When I feel down, It does hurt my feelings if I'm honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, You and I have, I, I've seen that you've like created a following that has nothing to do with, You know, Your background. And I have tried to do the same where like I have people who follow me who know, Who know nothing about OneTaste. They know nothing about, About, You know, The, The sex commune that I was in before OneTaste existed. They just know who I am now. And I think you've done a really good job of just like creating, Creating basically your branding, Both your branding and the message that you're bringing to the world, Like the stuff that you teach and the stuff that you talk about on your podcast and stuff. It's been really good. I like to witness you come into your own and kind of curate and add your experiences and like, Yeah, It's been, It's been good. I send people to you. Oh, Awesome. Thanks. And a lot of it was OneTaste based. I mean, I don't think I've gotten anything close to that level of education about men and women, Especially, Or feelings like nothing even close. And I've done taken a lot of workshops since, And yeah. Yeah. And I would use, But would you say that you, What you teach now is your own, Like, It's, It's your own vert. Like, Sure. It's deeply influenced by, By OneTaste and deeply influenced I'm sure by all the reading that you've done and then the other classes you've taken, But wouldn't you agree that it's kind of your own thing that you've, You know, You've developed because that's how it feels. Yeah. I mean, It's definitely, I mean, I don't agree with all the ideas, Certainly for OneTaste. I do feel like my confidence in certain things comes mainly from the experiences I had there because everything else I've read in books is just book stuff. Right. Really the only time I've really had like intense experiential lessons. Yeah. Was, Was OneTaste. And you know, That's also been confusing not to jump between the topics, But maybe this is necessary. Like my ego got super inflated in OneTaste and I think that's true for many people where I thought, One, I thought the world was all OneTaste because my social media feed was that all the people that was part of being in a cult. So I thought I was like a really big deal. I thought I was so brilliant. I was getting a lot of validation from other people I thought were like the most brilliant people in the world. Some of whom, Which was partially true. And then since leaving there, I've had a lot of shame about the feelings I felt, My self perception. I'm like kind of embarrassed of things I said or thought to people. And it makes it very hard for me to feel confidence in many settings, To be honest, Where I feel like this kind of back and forth, But I don't want to go there again. Which is maybe stage three in your list of like sharing brashly or callously and thinking I'm so cool. And actually, I mean, I even feel a knot in my stomach saying this. It's like, I feel like this in this stuck place, Partly because of like a certain high I reached that I'm afraid to approach again, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's, I actually have a theory about this. There's a certain kind of cockiness. I'll say it for me and then you tell me if this also applies to you. So for me, I was really terrible with women. I was shy. I had no skills. I had nothing. I had no game. I had nothing like I had, I was really bad at relating with them just even as human beings. And when I up-leveled through training really quickly, I was very impressed with myself because I, Because of how big of a jump and how quickly it happened. All of a sudden my low self-esteem, Like the comparison between that sudden jump from where I was, Like I was impressed with myself in this because of where I started and how quickly I developed, But my view of myself was skewed. And so I had, At the time I had, I was fortunate to have women who were able to kind of give me a little perspective. And I, So I had teachers who kind of gave me perspective and had me like kept my humility in check, If that makes sense. But I think there is a certain kind of cockiness that can just come from rapid development. And I wonder if that's what happened to you or if you would say it slightly differently. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, Actually I would say almost exactly. It's just what happened afterwards was that the humility check came from a different environment where I now thought the previous thing maybe was fake, Which was a thing that made it really hard to talk about my cult experience for a number of years. But I mean, Just as an, Where it's kind of showing up as like actually to go back a stage when I was doing pickup stuff before one taste, I developed confidence or competence in a very specific kind of social setting and it didn't translate and it made me realize it was, Oh, It was a fake. It was a mask. It was not, It was not very useful. I didn't even like going to clubs and it wasn't me in one taste. I developed something that's felt and is I think a lot more authentic and real, But still I'm realizing like, I'm still pretty awkward. I mean, It's not something that really is bothers me, But like I'm very confident in one-on-one situations with women. I'm still pretty awkward in parties. Like that hasn't changed. I'm like somewhat okay with that. But then I have been thinking about more of like something around, It's still something around not being comfortable, Letting myself be known, Which maybe relates to the other things. I don't know. I'm being a little vague now, But it's like, This is kind of what I'm processing. Interesting. Yeah. I'm curious about it. Like I see you as someone who would have easy access to fame and success just because, You know, I think you've done a really good job of pulling from different sources and then finding a way of making it your own. Like I find you to be very articulate in expressing the ideas and the concepts and just the stuff that you teach. So I think a certain level of humility is valuable, But I would think that you could have the amount of visibility that you want if you wanted it, Is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I guess that's also been, Because I don't have a big following and the people who do follow my stuff usually say nice things and that feels good, Of course. Then a lot of people also say, Why don't you have more followers? And it's kind of this thing, Even with my book, For instance, Which has been a huge part of this whole thing, It's been very, I've been working on it for 10 years and I still, It's just something, You know, It's like, Everyone says, Oh, It must be so easy to get a book deal, But like, Man, I've gotten so many rejections from agents of like, Not even like, And I mean, This is maybe a very common thing for a writer to gripe about, But I'm just like, Man, There must be, I mean, Must be something internal going on where I just don't allow, I don't know. Yeah. Can I say like, I felt that way about myself, Just in terms of the success of my business when I left One Taste in 2014. I had, I had a reputation within a certain group and enough of them sought me out to like, You know, Sustain me at a, At a basic, Basic sustainable level in terms of like, I mean, I had to, I had to bootstrap pretty, Pretty seriously when I left One Taste. I didn't have, I didn't have like a cushion or anything, But I, I initially thought that I would be pretty, It would be pretty easy for me to be successful. And I found that that wasn't the case. The business classes didn't really help for reasons that I couldn't really pin down. And at some point I was like, Oh, I'm, I'm the issue here. Like something, There's something internal within me that's in the way. And so I definitely resonate with that feeling, But for what it's worth, I meant it, I meant it as a compliment, Not like, Why aren't you doing better? What I meant was like, Like if you, What you do know is that you have ambivalence about it. And so there isn't, There may not be, There's a lot that you do have going for you that once, Once those internal things get, Get resolved, Like the more I resolve my internal stuff, The more like things are getting to flow and, But it took a long time. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I guess I was wondering if I like that post you shared, Cause I love the way you put out the seven stages. Maybe there's something in how one say how a coach progresses from stage to stage. I basically have been like looking at it as like, Is this, Is this a framework I can use to, To work through my things? But I think, You know, I think other people have commented on that post. Like it's just a useful way to share ideas or communicate. And well, I've come to think of confidence as something that's actually pretty humble and not arrogant. Like I think of, I think of arrogance as like when I talk about confidence, Cause I, This is something I talk about with men and I think it comes, Like I always talk in terms of like self-esteem and I think of confidence as like, Because I'm confident, It's easy for me to apologize. Like a good apology where your ego isn't involved. It's like, Oh yeah, I was wrong. I'm really sorry. Like I like a genuine regret, But no ego involved in it or to, To change your mind, To have your mind changed about something. Like I think of, I think of confidence as something that's, That's very, That actually has a lot of humility in it, But at some point you just claim who you are and you say, No, This is what I believe in. And this is, This is what I, What my stand is in the world. But it's my definition of confidence now is very different from my confidence back in the day where it was just brash and cocky and like risk taking. And like, I thought of those things as confidence, You know? So I think in some way that parallels to some degree, I don't have, I don't have the, I know the post you're talking about, I don't have it up. I wonder if, If you have it. I do have it up. Andy? Maybe we should Kind of memorize it. Okay. Point one is shying away from saying hard things. Point two is saying hard things diplomatically, Apologetically tentatively. Three is saying things callously, Harshly, While patting yourself on the back. Four is saying hard things lovingly, Which is actually to comment on. I've noticed even that I feel a little bit of disdain for, Like, I'll say with sharing to online, Like when it comes from, Oh, I'm doing this just for other people, Even that kind of feels a little fake to me at times. And I don't know if this is resistance in itself, But like when I read that, I was like, Oh, I'm glad this is a middle point, Not the final point. I think in many people's lists, That would be the end. And I kind of meant it in the sense also of like with a healthy dose of sugar to make the medicine go down. Like you, You, You kind of cover it in sweetness and niceness. Like a compliment sandwich or something. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Point five was saying hard things nonchalantly or humorously as a diversionary tactic. And six is saying it with no internal emotional charge in a matter of fact way. And seven is in such a way that the receiver does not think it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. I think that does parallel my relationship to my own confidence and my relationship to my own self-esteem. At first I was too shy to, To, To rock the boat. Then I got really brash and cocky, Like I'm kind of skipping, But, And then, And then I realized I was kind of like bashing through people's very possibly sensitive, You know, Feelings. So then I got super loving and, And soft and like we couch things in a lot of softness. Then I just, Then I just got kind of matter of fact about things. And now I'm at the place where when I'm on a coach, It was kind of like what I said and when I'm on a coaching session, I am more aware of the shifts that are taking place than they are. Like I, They don't even have, It was like, I'll say something and they'll be like, Oh yeah, That makes a lot of sense. And then I will see their behavior change radically where me a few years earlier would have like, That would have been like three months of coaching to get them to that place. So something about my own and my own relationship to myself brought me through that whole, That whole sequence. Yeah. That, That last point the thing that it made me think of the most is like, If your friend is tripping on a hallucination and you're not, They might be going through something really intense, But you know what the reality is around them and you know, They're safe and it just makes it easy to trip, Sit or guide them through it. And I've been trying to remember that with everything, Like see the real reality where we're, Where things are not as dire, Even though they're having an experience and move them through that, Whether it's in coaching or in life or whatever. Beautiful. I like that. Yeah. Uh, Yeah. So how was it with the dive, The vice doc for you, Uh, As far as being cuts and all that stuff? Yeah. So, Um, I've done a bunch of interviews, Like it's funny, Uh, A few, Two or three years ago, I was like, I think I'm ready to actually tell my part of this story because it hasn't really, It hasn't really, I think I had a unique perspective within the company, Like all the stuff that's being said on both sides of it, The people who, Who adored and worship it and the people who feel burned and victimized and think it's the devil. Like, I feel like my perspective, My particular position within the company gave me, Um, A different way of looking at it. And so a couple of, Like a couple of years ago, I just started to feel the feeling like, I think I'm ready to talk about this. I'm thinking, I'm ready to tell this story and, You know, A bunch of different opportunities. I mean, Like there's, There's a bunch more documentaries that are, That are being done. There's documentaries that I turned down, But I think after the BBC, I felt really, I felt like my quotes were misused in the BBC. So I was pretty burned. And then with Vice, I, I, I had a good feeling about the, The, The guy, The, The producer director. So I said, Yes, When they, When they decided to cut me, That told me everything about what the story was going to be. I was like, Okay, I know that I was not surprised at all by what they, What they created. I don't think I like to me, Like my wife called it a big nothing burger. Like I didn't think there was a lot there for them to like, There wasn't much that added to the story in my opinion. But what I came away with is I'm going to have, Like, I'm, I'm writing an article myself to talk about clitoral stroking, Which is the thing that gets thrown under the bus by all of this. Like, I think to this day, I feel like I'm, I have a better chance of saying the nuanced, Like the, The reality of why clitoral stroking is, Is even a thing. And so that I I'm working on an article, It's almost done actually. And that, And then I think the next level of vulnerable visibility will to talk about my origin story and the people that I, That I got trained by and both the good of everything that I got and also the, The abusiveness and the manipulativeness of it and the abuse of it. So that will be the next piece in terms of me just getting clean with everything so that I don't have whatever is in the way of me and, And my, My steps towards visibility and, And just being more out in the world and making a bigger impact because I can tell those things are tied in with, With why I meet the world with ambivalence. Well, I'm very excited to read it. I love your writing and I'd love to hear your perspective. Um, Yeah, I was really very glad that you were, Uh, Involved in these. I'm curious what, What was required for you to feel comfortable talking about it a couple of years ago or what happened that you weren't and then you were, Um, Well I, When I first left one taste, I realized what a bubble it actually is and how difficult it is to actually get someone. Like it's not, It's not surprising actually that all of the documentaries, Like when they, When they show the process of getting into position to do, To do an OM, They play ominous music, Right? There's no way, Like it's so weird that it's really hard to talk about it in a straight way and in a clear, Straight matter of fact way of this is what it is. Like every, All the people who create, Like, I guess the, The, The, The people doing the interviews do, Do one thing, But then the producers and the edit, Like everything is in the editing room and they always end up distancing themselves from it. And so I just felt like I wanted a fresh start when I, In 2014, I just wanted, I wanted to create something from scratch and it took a while to create a following of people who are following me for what I was talking about now and not from a reputation, Which was a mixed, Very mixed reputation. And I feel like one, I needed a certain level of, Of, Of following and to be, To just be me, There are people who know me who know nothing about one taste whatsoever. They'd never even heard of it. And I needed a certain amount of that and then be with that for a while. And then I was able to say, Okay, Now I feel like I can, I can talk about this chapter of my life. Not as, Not as a, A, A black mark on my thing, But also not as a feather on my cap, But just as a chapter of my life. And so, Yeah, I, Does that, Does that make sense? What I'm saying? Yeah. It's like you had to come back to it complete. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to become, I had to become the new person I wanted to be before I could talk about it from a, From a, From a perspective of distance. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Uh, Yeah, I wasn't able to really write my book well coming out of it. Cause my perspective would change month to month sometimes. Like sometimes I would be praising Nicole and then other times it'd be like, You know, It's hard, It's hard, Uh, Right afterwards. I'm with the, With the stuff about like the ominous music with Om stuff. I, You know, It's like, It just seems like such an easy way, Or I guess you said safe, Like, Or they're distancing themselves. It's like, I guess I lose respect for these, Uh, And I understand why they would do it, But the creatives who make these decisions, Because it seems like such a, A safe and easy way to deal with a difficult subject. Um, Maybe, Maybe everyone is, It's like kind of like everyone's afraid of being demonized as like a pervert or whatever. I think especially as a man talking about this stuff, Cause that's the, That's the thing I get the most flack about is that I was a man who said he got a lot out of stroking, Lots of women's clitorises in a place where that was the norm. Like the it's, It's, It's easy to paint it as a perverse thing. And especially with how the culture is treating men in general nowadays. Yeah. Well, It's interesting cause I, I think I got a chance to witness something with the vice piece that I hadn't really been a part that like something clicked for me about how this whole process goes. So when I first talked to the guy, Um, He was just starting out to, In to talk to people to see, Is there a story here? Like, I'm just, I'm just finding out like he was actually learning as he went to talking to different people. And he, He, He was genuine. I believe that he was genuine when he said, I want to do a story that's actually pro orgasmic meditation, Though I will of course include stories of the stories of the people who, Who, Who speak negatively. It's not going to be totally positive, But when he said, Um, I really want to do something that's, That's pro that's pro clitoral stroking, Pro orgasmic meditation. I believe that that was true. And I think along the way, A couple of things happened. One is it, The stories that were told by the people who, Who were, Were legitimately harmed, Uh, Made it hard for them to, To, To maintain that stance that I'm going to be a stance that orgasmic meditation is a thing. Number one, Number two, People who are actually still active in the active in the practice or still pro pro one taste are so reluctant to talk. They like, He came to me like late in the process saying, We're desperate for people who, Who will talk about, Who will say positive things like people who are still doing the practice. I know they're out there and I was like, Yeah, They are out there, But he, So few people were willing to speak on behalf of the practice in a positive way that the material they had was skewed. And so it, The only thing they could really do was, Was do was do what, What amounts to a hit piece basically. And I think that might be a, That might be a pattern. Like more people like people will, There are people who say, Oh, You know, I'm changed my life, But they won't go on camera and say that. Yeah. So, Yeah, That's my sense of it. Yeah. I mean, A lot of this stuff, I mean, It's, To me, It's a little ironic or, You know, There's layers to it in that it's kind of cult dynamics in society. Like everyone's afraid to speak out against the popular stance because then they'll be cast out, Which in society is maybe not literally, But it's canceled culture is an element of, I, What was it called in one taste? I don't remember if it had a term, But when, When someone left, There was like a meeting to enforce the negative perception. Actually there was, I actually, I forgot about this. There was one about you that I was in where it was the first ignited men. It was the first ignited men after you left. And not a lot was said about you, But there's something like, Uh, I think I won't say his name, But the, One of the guys who replaced you on stage was saying positive things about you. You're a mentor to him in some way. And the greater authorities there were pointing out where you had basically lost your way and how you were not someone to be followed. And it wasn't a lot. It wasn't that a lot was said about you, But it was like made a very clear point that if you still look up to Ken Blackman, You've actually, You're losing your way. And like, That was it. And it was like, Um, Yeah. And it was just like, Especially for the, You know, Cause obviously there's like a tiers of influence or where you are in the hierarchy, Everyone who is lower, Just accepted it because they don't know any better that people up top, You can see like they're thinking about it, But they eventually like went along. That's the only way you could stay in the reality. Yeah. I think, I mean, On the one hand, I see the necessity of that given, Given the direction that they went, That is a necessary way to do things. You know, It's interesting. When I left one taste I had had, By that time I had had two experiences with groups that had become a cult that like the goal wasn't to free people or liberate people or raise people up or like have them get to their highest level. The, The, The goal was to capture people and retain them and hold onto them and keep them for as long as possible. And, And I was sick of that. And I made like, When I first left one taste, I made a, I made this, This vow to myself, I'm not going to coach anybody longer than three months. Like I am going to graduate them after three months. And I had to do that for a couple of years before, I mean, I, I ended up hiring a very good coach for my up-leveling who said, Ken, You're not at risk of enslaving people. You're not at risk of like, Of manipulative Louis, Like, Uh, Like holding people back. That is not who you are. You don't have to worry. You can coach people, But, But I had to like go in this direction of just making a vow to myself that I was only gonna, I would always have my eye on graduating people, Having them like liberating them from, From needing me. Do you know what I mean? And so given the direction that they went, This was something actually, This is something that on it, That, Uh, That Nicole and I argued about the, You know, During one of our first conversations was, I was talking to her about this, About wanting to graduate people. And she said, Ken, Not everybody wants to graduate. Some people want to have a guru that they follow for their, For their lives. Like there's, There's other lineages where you have your guru and that's your guru for the, For the, For life. And there's people who want that. And I was like, Okay, I can see that. And I think if they, If that, If that had been done cleanly where, Um, You know, Like if it, If it, If, If it hadn't become, Uh, Deeply, Like, Like the goal is to hold onto people. The goal is to hold onto people at all costs that, That would have made a lot of sense. But once I saw that that was actually being misused, I was like, No, I'm out of here. Do you think it can be done cleanly in the longterm? Well, Cleanly in the longterm, I think that you have a, I think the coach client relationship or the teacher student relationship should be oriented towards, Um, Having people like freeing people, Liberating them, Having them grow, Having them step into their fullest self. And once I'm in a community where I can see that the people who are here are actually sabotaging the people who are here because as you, As you rise up, You become a threat or you become like, Like once, Once I'm a free thinker and thinking for myself and have confidence, I'm, I'm a threat to the, To the system. Um, I think, I think that's a, That's to me, That's, That is a system that has lost its way. So I, The reason I had to pause is because can it be done cleanly in the long run? And I think those two things are like, I think it can be done cleanly for as long as it serves the person who's, Who's taken you on as their mentor. Gotcha. Yeah. I guess there's a bunch of ways to look at it now. Cause like, I do think maybe one of my controversial ideas is that cults work because they feed off of like instinctual family dynamics where you have like an elder who you really trust that knows the world and you follow that person and you basically live together super intimately against the elements, Right. As hunter gatherers or whatever. And I guess like, Um, A cult or a lot of cult dynamics are where the kids aren't allowed to become adults ever. Like they stay as kids. Um, But then I also think, You know, And this is just from my brief experience and not that I went that high up within the organization, But the more power I had, Even with the best of intentions, The more like kind of natural ways I would kind of maybe flex or just see like what I could do, Like, Not because I meant anything malicious, But like, It almost seems like, Like watching dogs create their hierarchy and like one dog does things to the lower dog just because, And somehow there's something maybe animalistic in there. And I do think there is something natural about that because when, When you just said Nicole said, If some people want to follow, I do think I noticed this now in many things with political parties, With like the culture wars, Like most people want to follow some other person's idea because it actually just makes them feel safe. And there is something sadly natural about that. Like it is kind of scary, Like the idea of graduating away from your family or whatever tribe it is kind of, Uh, Uncomfortable. Well, I mean, I felt, I felt that as a, As an 18 year old, When I was starting to think about moving out of the house and, You know, Getting like getting a job. So I think, I think, I think the metaphor is super valuable. There's a, There's a lot that you can kind of extract from that metaphor. Uh, That's true in both directions. Do you know what I mean? But I think it's more like everything is intention. Everything is intention. Like what are, What are, So there's my, There's my goals for the client and then there's my personal goals. And to what degree am I putting like someone, Someone hires you and then they, They put their psyche in you, Into your hands. Like there's, You, You have to have a great deal of reverence for the amount of trust that people are giving you. Like you have to have reverence for it because, Oh my God, The opportunity to exploit that. Like I with clients, If I wanted to, I could say a little twist that, That, That sends them in a direction where they will, They, They I've subtly stolen their capacity to make smart decisions for themselves and just subtly attached it to me. They would never know that I had done it like, Like that is how much power, Um, I as a coach have, Well, God damn it, You gotta, You, You, You better take that with reverence. And so I have been in enough situations where I was genuinely tested. Like I have a lot of opportunity here, Here to take advantage and have this go in the direction that fits my personal goals and to see the choices that I made in real time to be in service of the, Of the, Of the person that, That has enlisted me to help them grow. Um, Sometimes, You know, Like at, Like at the expense of my own, Of my own, Um, What I might want in terms of, You know, Wanting more clients, Wanting more income, Wanting more fame. So I do believe that, That there is this concept of putting the client first. And I think, And I would, I I'm much happier having made the decisions that I made then making the decisions that would have me be probably a lot wealthier, Probably a lot more famous and probably with a lot more, A bigger following. So I believe in it because, Because I, I believe in it deeply as a thing that, That I do. So yeah, I believe it's possible. Is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah. And I relate to the thing you said earlier about, Uh, I'm actually took a year off from year plus off from coaching because the only way I knew how to do sales was the one taste way of feeding on insecurities. And I'm like, I can't do this. It's like, If I can't, If I can't find another way to enroll clients, I'm just not going to do it. And I drove a cab for a year. It was actually great until I found a different way to just share who I was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm curious cause I mean, I don't know exactly what I wanted to ask you about relationships, But I felt like I ought to, Uh, I'm in a marriage is the longest relationship I've been in. Uh, So I don't know. I don't have any specific questions, But I am curious now about what we're talking about of like, Well, General question. Have you found parallels in your marriage and with your coaching style? I don't, I don't, I mean, Well at a deeper level, There are certain things that I, That I believe in, In terms of just like, Do the right thing that I think come into play in, In both my marriage and in my coaching practice. So I think, I think that the, The, The easy oversimplification is do the right thing. If that makes sense to the best of my abilities. Do you know, I asked this cause I read, Uh, Some of your recent posts, Uh, And your wife also posts about relationship and it seems like a very common thread and even the title of your book is like kind of uplifting each other. I don't know if you would agree with that perception, But it's like, Yeah. I mean kind of the way you're speaking about uplifting the clients, Uplifting your partner. And I'm curious if, If, Yeah, If there's a, Oh yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Oh, There's absolutely a parallel there. Like I am, I am a stand for her being uncompromisingly who she is. And most people, I was going to say most women and I think that's probably especially true because I think women get a lot more conditioning to mold themselves. Well, Maybe not more, But it's different. Like women are, Are conditioned to, To mold themselves, To be what their partner wants. And I, I would say my perspective is it that's even more true of women than it is with men because I, For most of my time, A lot of the coaching that I did had specifically to do with sex. And I think it's like the degree to which women's pleasure and women's enjoyment and women's libido, Women's desire gets thrown out the window is more so in sex than in, Than possibly in any other, Any other environment. So I'm, I'm deeply, I'm deeply aware of the degree to which it's a different experience for women to be, To have their pleasure be something that is prioritized or like, Um, Like one of the things I said to her is we're only going to do things that feel good to you. We're not going to do anything that doesn't feel good to you, Bodily, Bodily pleasure for you. And so like I, The one of the things I said to her is, And this is my rule when I'm coaching people is if you're having sex, I don't care if he's 10 strokes away from climaxing. If it doesn't feel good to you, You stop. That's the degree to which I take this seriously. And so there's a way in which I'm very much a stand for her being uncompromisingly who she is. And I think what I was going to say in the beginning is I don't think people have had an experience with a partner who is, Who is that much of a stand for, For you being really who you are, Not, Not molding yourself to what you think you're supposed to be or what you think your partner wants like that. So in that regards, Yeah. Uh, Does it make me think of a question I've gotten from a couple of guys, Maybe the other side of it of, You know, Typical guy, I'll use an extreme example. Women don't like him so much. Like he's not very, Let's say masculine. He doesn't feel that way. And he reads all these books or he listens to people like me. Like, Oh, These are things women like. And he's like, But aren't I supposed to be who I am. I'm doing these things. Cause there's a checklist that women say they like and there's like a, And I have different answers to it depending on the person, But I'm curious what you have said. I, This is what I would say. Um, Do you, Do you like who you are or do you agree with women that you would, That you would actually rather be this, This person that they, That you like, It's one thing to make your list of molding yourself into what you think women want or particular a particular woman wants. And it's another thing like, I think becoming the man you want to be is one of the most attractive things you can do. And that was true for me. Like, Oh my God, The list of the list of things that I, That, That I thought were strikes against me when it came to women. Like I wasn't tall. Your audience probably doesn't know this, But I'm five foot zero. I'm five feet tall. I wasn't tall. I wasn't, I didn't consider myself attractive. Certainly wasn't athletic. I wasn't charming or outgoing. Like I didn't have patter. Um, I, I wasn't wealthy. So I felt like I was failing on every count that you could name for what is traditionally or conventionally considered attractive to women. Um, But once I started liking myself, Once I started like making changes in my, How I feel about myself, Everything shifted. And so I suddenly was having, Not suddenly, Gradually, Cause this was a, This was a long process, But I think if you believe that women want someone tall, I'll just use that example. Like I, I now enjoy being the counter example of women who say that they like tall guys and are, It drives them crazy that they're attracted to me. So I think there was a deeper thing about how you feel about yourself that is actually more important than what you think women want. And I didn't mean to tie this to the other thing, But now something, Maybe because it's on my mind, It clicked with the being seen stuff of like, I have been in a trap of either distaining what I think people want or doing what they, What people want, But kind of resentfully and both feel bad. Dude, Dude, I struggled with this a lot the first couple of years after I left OneTaste. Like when I left OneTaste, I thought all the intellectual property that I created while I was there, They can have it. They can take it, They can run with it. It's theirs. I'm not even, I'm going to hit the, The reset button and start with a blank slate and start from first principles. What do I, What do I actually believe is true about relationships about life? And I just started to kind of create pixels of like, Oh, This is a thing that I honestly believe is true. This is the thing that I believe is true. And you got actually got to witness some of the courses that I was teaching around that time. Like just like as I created my, My own body of work that wasn't seen through the lens of anyone else, Wasn't under someone else's awning. And I was starting to do writing and I was starting to teach. And what I found was all the writing that I thought was going to do well, Didn't hit at all. But when I just decided to write my own voice and write what I like, Just write uncompromisingly what I believe, That stuff just hit amazingly. So at this point, I think that's the only way that I can actually do it is just to say, Is just to be uncompromisingly with my voice of what I believe. For some reason, I never like there, There's marketers, There's people who are great at dialing in with the zeitgeist and writing something that, That is, That people love. I never got good at that. I'm only good at doing my own thing. And when I do my own thing, It hits. So for what it's worth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've had similar experiences. Actually. One thing that probably triggered somewhat of a depression last year is that I decided kind of to sell my soul. I was like, Okay, I'm done being, You know, In the minor leagues, I'm, I, I worked with these marketing people and we did all of these things that didn't feel good and it still didn't work. So it felt like a double, It felt like a double loss. I'm like, Man. Yeah. I've done that too. I've spent a lot of money on, On marketing that I should have, I mean, In hindsight, Right? Like hindsight's 20, 20, But Oh my God, I should have known better than to try that. So yeah. And you know, It feels like, So when I started learning stroking and I think with a lot of guys who are maybe in their head a lot, There's something that seems so magical about intuition or like, Oh wait, If I really stroke for my pleasure, That's the right stroke. Like no way like that. That seems like it just seems like it can't be true, But I mean, I keep, I feel like every year I get some reminder of how this applies to a different area of life. Like you really need to do what feels good to you because that's really the only thing you can trust. Everything else can be a lie. Hermoine's the Facebook algorithm, It all could be lies, But there's only one, There's only one barometer you can trust. Yeah. How it feels. And you know, We have a super accurate Spidey sense that we've been trained not to use. We've been trained to find some instruction manual, But the instruction manual was written by someone who used their Spidey sets. That's how they came up with, You know, Whatever it was. So yeah. Cool. So what else have you been up to lately? Well, I'm married, Happily married, Blissfully married. Ana and I are starting to teach courses together. We're just launching something for couples. I'm super excited about it. We've started coaching couples together and it's really something because her style is so different from mine. And sometimes she's doing something and I just I'm like, That's magic. I have no idea what, Like I'm witnessing a conversation that seems like it's in a language that I don't understand. She has the same feeling, You know, Watching me coach. So together it's very synergistic. Cool. And you're teaching around the States? We're going to be, We're going to be doing some live stuff right now. It's all online. Okay, Cool. Awesome. Cool, Man. Well, I'm definitely going to check that stuff out and please, Please do share when you, When you write those articles. I'll definitely share it as well. Awesome. Well, It was great catching up. Thanks so much. Great catching up, Man. It's good seeing you.