Good Company

47:22

47:22

Good Company

by Catherine Ingram

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talks

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Meditation

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It is important to seek good company and to be good company, and it is also wise to avoid those who are emotionally draining. Sometimes we are strangely attracted to people for reasons that might have to do with our own ego needs, such as being among the rich, powerful, famous, or some other kind of perceived glamour. What if we were simply attracted to those with whom our heart is at rest?

Relationships Community Grief Resilience Emotional Intelligence Inner Peace Mindfulness Authenticity Meditation Compassion Family History Toxic Relationships Emotional Resilience Meditation Benefits Pandemic Reflections Family Dynamics Anger

Meet your Teacher

Catherine Ingram

Lennox Head NSW, Australia

Meet your Teacher

Catherine Ingram

Lennox Head NSW, Australia

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep. I'm your host, Catherine Ingram. The following is from a Zoom session broadcast from Australia on July 3rd, 2021. It's called Good Company. I've been thinking about the importance of good company. Good company seems a simple understanding, But sometimes we find ourselves in circumstances where we're not in good company. We might be in situations or even in relationships with friends or whoever that are making us feel bad, That are toxic to us in some way. And it's kind of surprising how one might just keep hanging in there in those circumstances, Just out of habit or maybe you have a little agenda of sorts. There's something you get out of it, Even though on balance it's very costly to your wellbeing and to your psychological health. Someone was telling me the other day that she seemed to find herself several times in a row in friendships that were kind of abusive, Not anybody hitting anyone, But just not kind, Not gentle, Not supportive. And she was questioning her choice in these matters and looking at what was it that was kind of keeping her in them. When I was younger, I had quite a few like that, Quite a few, Whereby I would, I was always attracted to genius and I would put up with a lot if someone was what I considered incredibly smart and interesting. I would want to be in their company. I'd be a little starstruck and I would be in circumstances whereby I would be left feeling like at the end of an evening or at the end of a phone call or any engagement with the person, Not so great about myself and not happy. But some other part of me was being fed, Kind of an ego part was being fed. This is a long time ago because I've become, I would say, Sort of savage about my demands for being with the sweethearts. And I get to hang out with sweethearts and I know the difference. And I'm perfectly happy alone. So I don't have any, I don't have any agendas of needing to be in anybody's company who isn't a sweetheart. And so based on this conversation I had with my friend the other day, I've been thinking a bit about just what constitutes good company and also my own evolution in this regard. That I really love being in the company of those who know how to love, Those who are generous of heart. And I don't make such demands on people having to be brilliant. I mean, It's a nice bonus if I think that they are brilliant in the ways that I like certain types of perceptions and intellect. But it is no longer the top of the list. And I was reflecting on this because as most of you know, Those of you who know me a long time know that my dear brother died at the age of 38. And one of the things I spoke about at his memorial, I read to him a letter, Though he was not there to hear it, But it was all the things I wished I had said. One of which was the acknowledgement that though he himself was incredibly brilliant, He was one of the most brilliant people I've ever known. He didn't demand that of his friends. He hung out, He often hung out with the downtrodden because he never had much money. He wasn't very high functioning at all and really couldn't hold a job. And he basically lived off the generosity of his family members. So he didn't have a lot to spare. But whatever he had, He was always giving away and was always hanging out with people who were living in a rough way and not his not anywhere near his intellectual equals, But it didn't matter to him. He was all about kindness and about friendship that was based on very, Very different values. And it was one of the things that I greatly admired about him because he died at a time that that wasn't so true for me. And I wish I had told him that actually. Sangha, Good company, The company of the wise, The company of the compassionate, The company of those who let you be you. And they hang around with you for incontrovertible reasons of just nice vibes. And it's also very interesting how sometimes we're trying so hard to impress where thinking that we're going to be approved of for certain types of talent or, You know, We show off in different ways. We throw out our plumes of our feathers. When usually it's a lot simpler, Isn't it? I mean, When you think about what it is that you like about being around someone, You might discover that it's actually comes down to something very, Very simple. It's basically how you feel in their company. How you feel. People have asked me over the years, You know, How to tell a real teacher or like a person that how do you tell some there's all kinds of characters running around calling themselves teachers. And I always say the answer is always inside of you. How do you feel in their company? Do you feel like you're trying to strain to understand what are they saying? Or do you feel a little nervous in their company? Like you're not quite in the club? Or do you feel perfectly relaxed? Like, Wow, This is lovely. All is well. So yes, I, I feel lucky to hang out with the sweetheart crowd everywhere I go. Not that I get to go many places anymore, But having had Dharma dialogues in so many places in the world before the world kind of stopped, I have been so lucky to know so many people who, Who are attracted to a certain frequency, Right? A certain type of a way of being. And I recommend seek good company or else just be fine hanging out in your own good company. And it's perfectly okay to let go of those who don't get the beauty of your trip. Perfectly fine to let them go find some other place to play. Yeah, I wouldn't know where to begin to say the things that your talk brought up for me. I recognize very much to begin with how I've been learning through the years to connect to people. I feel we are nurturing each other. We can have fun together, But in a good way and in a tender way. So I've also let go of some connections in my life. Indeed, It took time to recognize. The other thing that came up for me was, I hope I can explain myself. The other thing that came up for me was how painful it is when within the Sangha or some Sangha I feel misunderstood or because, You know, Life is in the Sangha. It's not that all of us do understand each other so well or react. And the expectation is there that it is context where you can express yourself. And I'll tell a short little bit of experience in that. In one of your podcasts, You mentioned the notion of a touchstone of inner sanity. Great. That's exactly what describes if I meditate or if I feel I go to my senses and to my quiet and if I feel the world is a bit too much or anything is a bit too much, I know to find that place. I was telling this to somebody in a sort of Sangha and she said, Oh, I feel there is some trauma there with the world, You could say. She was sensing there was some difficulty in me in dealing with the world. So I was a bit startled and I said, Yeah, Well, So how is it for you then to go to your inner quiet? She couldn't really answer that. And the conversation made me aware of how much I need to be able to reconnect with the world again. Once I've been in my quiet, My nature, My whatever it is, It is for me a place to reconnect to the world and also to reconnect sometimes to people that maybe are not the easiest or not friends that I mean, Because there are some people you have to deal with some people who are not that understanding and who don't listen that well. Yes, Of course. Yes, Of course. We live in a community of people. And I mean, I would propose that we have to interact with quite a few people that are difficult just in living in the world. We already have a compliment of those people that we have to interact with. Some of them may be family members or people we work with or just people you encounter out and about. I'm talking about who we choose to be engaged with in our lives, Who we choose to have as our friends and really have as our as our touchstones of sanity. Right. And of course, We have to make adjustments and allowances even for those, You know, We can't have our standards too high or we'd have no one around. But but to have to feel a general warm well wishing that you are bathed in when you're with this friend and when you're with a community of friends of sangha. And I have found over the years having been I mean, From old Buddhist days in the early, Early days, Starting in 1974, And just basically always with quite good, Solid, Large group of people that we were just went everywhere. We were always in retreats together or in between retreats. It was a big community. And when there would be any kind of frictions, There would be an intelligent, Wise kind of working it out. Even if that meant that you just didn't spend so very much time with each other, Even if you're in a group, Let's say you're in a group. And you're all hanging out. That person that you might not really jive with isn't necessarily the one you'll sit next to at lunch, Or go off on an errand with just like animals, Right? Just just like other animals. Some group together, You know, In a pack, Some don't, They still run in the same pack. Like that, You know, There's certain people with whom it's just water into water. And some, It's a little bit oil and water. And some it's, You know, Gasoline and fire, Gasoline. I would still say to just for your own peace of mind and well being, To seek good company, And also to be good company. And I know you are. But to be good company is another way that things can stay very, Very calm, Usually, Even with difficult people. Like you can just sort of sidestep the gnarly thorns and, And realize, Okay, I can do this for a while with this person. But, You know, How long do I want to be avoiding minds that are laid out? I'm interested in what your friends comment about you in the world and, You know, Paying attention to what's happening in the world, Which I do. I do too. Yeah, Yes. Always been, Always been very engaged with the world. Yeah. And, But I mean, It comes with heartbreak. Anyone paying attention these days, It comes with heartbreak. I mean, You know, All these hundreds of people have just died in Canada, In Canada, Of a heat wave. Also 116 degrees in Portland. I used to live in Portland in June. I mean, You'd still be waiting for summer in June. Summer would kind of slip in and out in July and August. There's no way to be awake to what is happening in the world and not be sad about it. I'm not saying you have to be constantly sad, But it's a part of the time we live in is sadness has to also be there. And that too is part of my sweetheart crowd is that those who understand that sadness and are not in denial and covering it up and constantly being distracted. That for me also is what allows a certain type of frequency that is very attractive to me. I'm at the barbie, The barbecue in Berlin. And this is the first beautiful day we've had in about a week. It's just been shooting down rain rain here. There's certainly a world to comment on. And one one thing I just want to grab on to this toxicity is external and it's internal. And I suffered from a great deal of internal toxicity for a very large part of my life. In terms of self judgment and yes, That too. But I think that the most destructive thing was anger. I had a great deal of anger and it was sort of a default position, The default tool that I used. And it was very corrosive, Corrosive to friendships, Corrosive to career, Corrosive to those around me. And it took me years to do the the soul work that's part of my purpose of being here to unravel this this terrible toxicity and to rewire myself to find a different response, Find a different wavelength to deal with people and to deal with this issue. And I got a book written by Dalai Lama. And the title of the book is Healing Anger. And in this book, He talks a great deal about antidotes that for this emotion, Which is toxic, There is this antidote. So if you're experiencing these emotions that were in his mind, Burdens or blockades to his progress, He would meditate on the antidote. Yes. So I learned the antidote of patience in the face of anger. And I think that it teaches you to to step back. I mean, Whenever you're being patient, You're stepping back. And stepping back gives us that that wonderful bonus of self evaluation, Where you realize this anger is doing me no good. This anger is just destroying me from the inside. And it's making me toxic to myself and to others. So if you don't want to have any friends at all, Cultivate anger. And, You know, This is a person I'm saying this as a person who has spent his entire career with very, Very toxic personalities. And I'm speaking about the conductors on the podium, You know, One one after another of these individuals, I find to be very toxic. But I'm curious about this. Is that because their egos are so inflated and people are so kind of worshipful and that kind of thing? Yeah, I think any situation where we are worshipful of an individual, We're giving them a get out of jail free card, And we're willing to accept behaviors, Behaviors and emotions and other burdens that are toxic to us, Because our goal is something else. Yes, That's what I'm saying. We want to be in their shadow. And it's exactly what you were saying about the brilliance of individuals. In our case, We love the brilliance of some musicians, We're attracted to them, We can't we can't not be in thrall of their gifts. It's impossible. It's like the secret weapon. You know, Off stage, They can be the most horrible human being. And then they then they take out an instrument and all of a sudden, You're giving them everything. Everything's forgiven. But that also plays into a basic misconception that we have about gifted people. Yes, When when we come to a gifted person, We believe that they're gifted morally. Because we see this incredible achievement in one level of their lives. We believe that it carries over every other level of their life. So for me, It was very important to unlearn that that deficit and understanding. And as far as toxicity, I mean, I'll give you an example. We had a conductor recently, Who talked and talked and talked about love. He's you know, Music is love, And I am love and I love you and I'm bringing you to this love and you know, It's just it was just such nonsense. Because I was realizing that here's a conductor who's not listening. He doesn't listen to us. He doesn't listen to our sound. He doesn't listen to what we say. He and anyone who from from my ensemble who would speak to him, He would just roll over with words. And it was such a contrast for me because in the first place love for me means listening. You know, We say loving is kindness. But for me, Loving is of course, It's kindness, But it's also listening, Which means you're making time, You're making space for the other person. And I just feel that in the in the pandemic time, It's, It's been a reset for all of us and a chance for us to reevaluate all of those relationships of all the people who are impacting our lives. And for you know, I think we're all under the same pressure to to seek those people who understand us and the people who aren't harming us with their toxicity. Yeah, I think I think to your point about the pandemic is that it has thrown into high relief what the priorities are. Because we've had so much loss of all of our assumptions about how things were expected to go to some degree. And they just that just got all wiped off the board. And we're left with well, What matters? Like what actually matters? Like, Okay, We can't go here, We can't go there. I mean, One of the thoughts I have, And I wonder if you have it too, Given that your family's in the US. I don't know if I'm going to get to see my family again. It's a very painful thought, Actually. And yet, It might be true. And so then I'm left with, Okay, What matters in terms of how do I live? How do I keep a buoyancy in my heart? You know, I make a great effort to stay in good touch with my family through the ways that we can, All of those kinds of things that become very clear in, You know, When things are stripped away. And one of the things of course, Who are my friends? Who lights my heart in my life? That all gets very clear. And these kinds of recognitions of things that don't light the heart also become very clear. I found myself becoming very much more direct. And just not wasting time. It's interesting that you should bring up the family because the family is bringing a toxicity with itself right now. It gets very complicated. And one wishes to maintain relationships. And that's another point. What are we willing to, In our friendships, What are we willing to accept as compromises to maintain the friendship and maintain the family? I was with a friend of mine who's Jewish and whose parents who are Hungarian actually were survivors. They were Holocaust survivors. They were in the camps as children. And my friend and I were watching this documentary about the last days of Hungary, Of the last days for the Jews in Hungary before they were taken to the camps. And one of the things that was clear in the documentary and that my friend who I'm sitting next to told me was the experience of her parents and family was the way that their friends in the families that had known each other for several generations turned against them as Jews. They turned them in, They turned against them, They wouldn't sell to them. They basically like, And it was like this part of this was unbelievable to them. And in the documentary, There were some older, It was made in the 90s by Steven Spielberg made the thing. There were a lot of older survivors being interviewed and they were saying, They were Hungarian once, And they were just saying over and over again how shocking it was that their own friends, People that they had said good morning to for many, Many years, Who had broken bread together, Who had helped each other throughout all kinds of other things. So yeah, It's a very strange time. It's another part of this story. I want to really emphasize about good company to find your good company where you can and want to be accepted for who you are and how you are and your own decisions. Yeah. Thank you. But for lots of us, It isn't a walk in the park. And just that thing about the logical, Yeah, The logical family. And yeah, It is something that I am mindful to. Wow. Don't make life any harder than it already needs to be. Swim with my logical family. Yes, Absolutely. Yes. And it's not to in any way diminish the importance of the blood family. But if it's super difficult, And if being in their company is just hard, You don't have to expose yourself to it too much unless you're in a circumstance where you actually are under the same roof or having to see each other frequently for whatever reason, Somebody's in the hospital or whatever. But in any case, The logical family, Again, There was always a great emphasis on Sangha in my Buddhist training, But I also like the Christian understanding to house the line from Jesus where I'll never remember it. My memory is really fading actually. But just the line about if the bonds of the family are pulling you, That you resist. And many, Many people I've known over the years have had to be disengaged from their biological family or from certain members of their biological family. It's just the way it is. As I mentioned to you, The flow in my life of what was happening was having my friend who was dying and then died. And I was thinking one of the things about him was that he was always good company. And over many decades, We were able to talk about so many things and always met each other from filmmaking to social, He wasn't so social, Sort of private things on the side. And it's that that I'm already thinking about the gifts that we shared. And you were actually there in the room. Yes, It was such an honor. Such an honor. It's a funny, Strange thing to say, But I feel so privileged to be at people's deaths because time stops. And with this, I was there as service to him and his partner who is also a very good friend. And she had her own grief and anguish and all questions of life. Whereas I had simple things to sit and whisper to him. And in all of that, These days in lockdown and people here and not here and dying and I don't know who's around and who isn't anymore. I think after you spoke about Leonard and then it was something that I shared with my friend and his partner that we went to see Leonard together and we shared new like when a new album would come out, Let each other know and we'd sit with her to things and it remains a precious connection. And those connections remain, The music remains, The poetry remains. Yes, Absolutely. Yes, Yes. And the love in your heart. I often reflect on that's really what's left of us when we die is the love in the hearts of those who loved us. And then when they're gone, Then the love of their lives in the other's hearts is left. And I often think about that in relation to my Italian grandmother who died when I was seven, A long time ago. And there wouldn't be many people now around that knew her. And when the few of us who did are gone, It's like poof, Poof, This beautiful being came and went and had a life and had children and grandchildren and immigrated from Italy and to the US and had a whole, You know, Write a book about her life, Even though it was on one level an ordinary life, But no life really is ordinary when you really think about what constitutes a life that, You know, Has love in it and has adventure and has all that. And even people who didn't have any adventures, You know, Even people who lived so-called extremely simple lives, Perhaps in history, Or even in our time, People who live more as villagers or peasants or whatever, The richness of a life, All that we all that a tender heart shares throughout the day. I often think about just the poof, Poof quality of it. And like how like back when I used to watch the Oscars, I haven't watched them for the last couple of years, But you know, When they show the memoriam part of the Oscars where they're showing the stars that died. And in many cases, I had actually known that they had died, Except that I forgot that they had died. And then I see them on the memoriam, It's like, Oh, Yes, That's right. That's right. And it's kind of like that in general, In a way. It's another point in terms of the priorities, The need for the recognition of the priorities of the life. That sitting by the bedside of your friend, It's pretty clear. As you were talking, I was just having a memory I haven't thought about in a long time of being in Hawaii, In Maui, And one of our friends who was, She was only probably in her forties, As I recall, She had a massive stroke and she was brain dead and she was in the hospital. And the decision was made to take her off life support. And there were probably about 20 or 30 of her friends, Me included, Who came in the moments before they took her off life support. We were there for probably for 15 or 20 minutes. People were chanting, People were reading from Ramana Maharshi. The doctors asked us to leave at the point that they were going to actually unplug her, But then they let us come back in right away. So we were just out for a few minutes and then we were back in the room. And there was something so profound about being in that room with Sangha in this incredible silence, Because when we came back in we sat in silence. And if there was any kind of last ethers of her awareness, Who knows, Maybe not, But there were her friends sitting in that room. And it was an amazing experience to have that happen with a community in that kind of consciousness. I remember thinking and even to this moment, I think it was a lucky death for her. I was reminded just in that pause that we all had, During which, By the way, I felt in good company, That pause, I recall you talking about something to do with the growing up and hanging out with a childhood friend and that sensation of what the hell did we talk about? I couldn't remember. I didn't remember at all. I was just reminded of that with that little hangout time that I experienced just now. I also had a friend called Jane and I must have spent hours and hours just, I know, Calling in to her and she called in to me and sat in her bedroom, I don't know, Whatever, Listening to things. I love that quality of being able to hang out. Maybe that for me is a definition of good company. Kind of pause a little bit, Kind of look around, Not speak too much, Because I find now I'm almost, When I kind of have an event, Especially now, Because it's like, Oh, God, We can meet up and have an event and it's all like starting afresh again with seeing a person face to face again. I'm trying to watch myself and I don't always succeed in discerning this. Not to fill too much time with talk. I feel I'm saying it out loud as a little support for myself to just say, Look, Just maybe hang out a little bit more, Even though it may seem like a waste of time not to use it drilling down into what's going on with you, Et cetera. But the lightness of hanging out is what I was just reminded of with just being here with you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, That's it. Just cruising along, You know, And something very, Very free and accepting when you're with someone and you're just cruising along and you don't feel the need to fill up the space with words or words come in, They're welcome, But it's not like there's some pressure that they have to be spoken and it's about the quality of listening, You know, Just how that's a form of love, Its presence. And that is so, So valuable. And a lot of people don't know that they, Again, In the conditioning of having to present somebody, Somebody interesting or somebody who has a talent or something, You might lose sight of the fact that just your attention with someone is lovely. Just that alone is very nice. Yeah. I don't know if you remember me. We met more than 20 years ago and I was on silent retreat with you in Ganshaus in Dorset. Oh my goodness. No, I'm sorry to say that I don't, But I'm sure I thought you wouldn't remember. I was twice, But the memories are still very vivid with me, You know, The memories of kind of open awareness where things could just rise up. And just because we talked about good company, Being in good company, Being good company, Being good company to ourselves. I remember this exercise we did right at the end. We were kind of gazing into other people's eyes. Yes. Yes. And I think normally I would have found that very difficult because I usually, I feel very touchy with things that kind of come out of people's eyes. And it just seemed like, Like nature looking in other people's eyes. I remember that experience. It just seemed like nature, Just like when you watch the weather, You know, Sometimes it's a cloud. You might not like it. Yeah. It's a powerful exercise because it allows you to, It entrains the awareness in a certain way that whenever you're looking at anybody's eyes, You might have a moment of that kind of experience that you have in that context, Doing that exercise, Especially in a retreat. The first time I ever did it again, It was on Maui a long, Long time ago. And it did something to me. It really did something such that I'll look up at a waiter or I'll look at someone anywhere, Actually, Any stranger or any friend. And suddenly I'll have this entrainment of like you're describing, Of just looking like at this pair of eyes. It's like nature or just, You know, You could call it self unto self. There's a kind of disappearing of the separation. I'm just mentioning it because I actually have to deal with a lot of people. I work in a hospital as a therapist with people who are very, Very deeply afflicted with strokes, With brain injuries. And I just, When I can remember, You know, When I'm able to remember, Which is not always this kind of openness of just, How should I put it, Of just kind of meeting what's arising, I just feel those are the moments when I'm actually not affected. There are days when I'm really downtrodden by all this suffering and going in there with a closed heart without compassion is not an option. So there has to be an option which is where both is possible. And it just came up when you started talking. I just remember this experience. About good company, Yes. So how do you keep your own well-filled? That's actually, That's my second question because now in lockdown, I just have, You know, It just has been a very lonely time, Partly, Not always, But partly, Especially since my partnership ended just before. And I noticed there is, On one hand, I also noticed this going forward is really important. Like I started to meditate more again. And that's something which is really, To me, It's really important. It's half an hour in silence. Just now having everything arise, But not reacting. That's one thing. But the other thing is, I've watched these needs for touch, For example, This need to be touched by another human physically or emotionally. Emotionally has been possible because, You know, We have been able to go for walks. I'm German and I moved back to Germany about 40 years ago. Wow. So I'm in the kind of middle part of Germany now. And we've been able to go for walks with each other. So there has been some contact. But what I've noticed with myself, Either why I accept bad company or the moment I'm bad company to others is usually neediness. Interesting. Yeah. So the times when I asked myself, Why did I actually get into this relationship? It was because it seemed to fulfill a need at that moment. As you say, It's usually, You know, The cost is much higher than what you get. Yeah. But also, I notice always when I feel I need, I really need someone now. That's usually the moment when everybody's running away from me. People usually call when I'm really happy at home in meditation. That's usually when all the phone calls come in. Well, At least you have the choice to call back later when you feel like having some company. Exactly. Exactly. But one thing is how to deal with these needs, Which I think are underlying wounds in a way. How to deal with them in awareness, Basically. I mean, It's very human to have needs and to have emotional needs for contact and for company. And we each have our own amount of need in those regards. Some people can have can can handle a lot of aloneness, Right? A lot of people I know, And I'm one of them, Who can handle quite a bit of aloneness. But there comes a point where it's too much. There is a need to be around, You know, My own kind, My own creatures. You know, I hang out with turkeys a lot here where I live, But they're not very conversational. So I would say that it's fair enough to fulfill human needs. It's one can't help but have that. In fact, I really like celebrating our humaneness, You know, The good bits. I really understand and appreciate the way that we're these, These creatures made by evolution. And that a lot of stuff is encoded as survival strategies, Like even the attachment about about family, Right? And about tribe and about having a mob that you hang out with is this that's very survival conditioning, Very much survival conditioning. That's how people had to live. That's how you could survive. So we can't deny any of that. The question though, Then becomes, Okay, How much of this do I have to go out and chase how much of it can I can I just sort of sit back and be content with whatever amount makes sense. And also not not out of some kind of ego need or some sort of desperation, Put oneself in circumstances that are just unpleasant and out of, You know, Some kind of hunger inside, You find yourself in in this circumstance that you can't wait to get away from. So it's all it's all about awareness. You'll know in your body, It's telling you whenever you're in somebody's company, Like I said earlier, Tonight, Your body, Your own inner barometer is going to tell you, Do I feel good in this person's company? Is this relaxing? Are we just cruising? Or is there a kind of tension? Is there some kind of positioning or one up mentorship going on or a bunch of opinions that you really don't feel like listening to or all of that kind of stuff? Your body is giving you signals along the way saying, This isn't quite a fit. And there doesn't even have to be any blame in it whatsoever. And I may not be speaking what I'm about to say for you specifically, But somebody on this call, No doubt it'll be true that you discover that maybe you're more of an alone or than you knew and that you're at a phase of life that being alone a lot is fine. So yeah, It's it's also a way of being honest with oneself about who you are and how you are.