An Interview With Ian Tucker

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37:14

An Interview With Ian Tucker

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In this rare interview "Your Simple Path" author and Insighttimer teacher Ian Tucker shares his journey from burnout in the corporate world to life as a global meditation and mindfulness teacher. If you are at a crossroads or feeling stuck with your current situation allow Ian's gentle wisdom to inspire the change you wish to see.

Meet your Teacher

Ashburton, Newton Abbot, UK

Meet your Teacher

Ashburton, Newton Abbot, UK

Transcript

So I've known Ian for about, I don't know, 20 years, And I met him at a Reiki class. I've done Reiki before, Some years before, And I thought, Well, He'll occupy in a few hours, And I saw this Reiki class not too far from Kings Norton, And I thought, I'll go, You know, And yeah, Just go and enjoy it. So I got there, And Ian was the teacher. He was one of the best things ever. So Ian taught us from Reiki, And we just became mates ever since, Really, Didn't we? So that's where we kind of began, And I'm adding, Maybe 20 years ago. And I used to have a little house in Sturtley, In Ninety Road, And Ian would come down, And we'd chat, And we'd just talk. And at that time, I never had Birmingham Holistic, I just was a practitioner. I think I might have been in the university then. I can't really remember what I was doing, And you were working in the corporate world, And I used to say to Ian, One of the chats we used to have, I used to have many, But I'd say to him, One dad loved my own centre, Loved my own place, And the driving force behind that, We'd share lots of different conversations. And you said, One dad liked to write a book. Remember? And so we both kind of fulfilled those things, Really, In different ways, But I just wanna kind of go back, Just about that time, What got you into the Reiki? What was the Reiki for you in the first place? If there is such a thing as a coincidence, It was a flyer pushed into my hand on Harbour and High Street, Over one Christmas. So I'd stepped away from the corporate world just a few weeks before, And was feeling a little bit drifty. I knew the corporate world wasn't for me anymore, So I made a conscious decision to go in search of what did mean something. And over that Christmas period, I was walking down Harbour and High Street, And somebody pushed a flyer into my hand, And it said, Learn Reiki. I had no idea what it was, But just something said, Have a go, Have a look. So all these things, Like when you say you were in a corporate world, What did you do? What was that exactly? So for about the last seven or eight years, I was the sales and marketing director for the UK's second largest fighting company. It involved a lot of travel around Europe, Sometimes further afield. And I guess the catalyst for change came, I went over that December to present the sort of project for the next year on behalf of the UK to Frankfurt. And I'd sat in this room for two or three days, A big room, 40, 50 people. Salaries must have been crazy, And I just, Something loosened its grip on me over those two or three days. I looked around the room, And for the first time ever, I sensed everyone, Everyone was lost. Interesting. You felt that instinctively. Yeah, It was a room full of fear, Big salaries, Big mortgages, Big positions, And everybody was sort of, Was drifting. Nobody quite, You know, Outside of the name on the business card, I don't think any of us knew who we actually were. So I sat at Frankfurt Airport that night, My flight was delayed for four hours, Couple of glasses of red wine. So what were you thinking then? So you're in this job in this corporate world, And you've got a high salary, You've gone to this meeting, And something's happened. Just this almost like awakening now. They're the same as me. They just look lost. And that must have been like a big thing to acknowledge in yourself, Really. Well, It was frightening. It was frightening. Because the problem is when everything in your life that you thought made sense stops making sense. What did you hold on to? It leaves a void. And so as I sat there at the airport that night, I knew I was done, But I didn't know what was next. And that's frightening. So if we roll on a couple of weeks, It's Christmas Eve, My wife and kids are in bed, And I'm the only one up, It's almost midnight. And I just got this feeling to step away, To finish, Just to walk away. So you've got three kids? Three kids, Yeah, Yeah. And you were settled in Birmingham, A house, Wife working, And then you've come back and you've had this moment of just. . . Yeah, I knew life would never be the same again, But I didn't know what that meant. And now, You know, The work I do with people, I understand, I mean, I'll tell you that Carl Jung, The eminent psychologist, Talks about our lives being like a typical day. He says in the morning of our lives, It's about fitting in, Keeping up with the Joneses, Beating the Joneses, Being liked, Possessing things, You know, Being seen. And that was you? And that was the morning of my life, Just like it's the morning of everybody's life in a different way. But Jung says, Goes on to say, Without exception, Without exception, We all step into the afternoon of our life. And what was important in the morning doesn't make sense after lunch, In his words. And then the afternoon of your life is more about, What's my life for? And that's where you were after that meeting. I guess it was lunchtime. Yeah. And then you were at an airport, You were saying? Well, Yeah, I was at the airport, And then I flew back, And then it was two weeks after Christmas Eve, Sitting alone, The family were in bed, And I just thought, I'm stepping away. I'm gonna leave it. Real sense of fear come up, Uncertainty, Anxiety. But a really interesting thing happened that I always hold on to, First time ever in my life, In that silence, Just after all of this, There was this knowing that it would be okay. I don't know what would be okay, I don't know how it would be okay, But then there was a knowing inside. Now, The problem with that is, You've then gotta try and satisfy or explain to people who depend on you that it's gonna be okay. So you've got this job, This corporate job. You've had this epiphany one Christmas Eve, And then the conversations began with your wife at the time, And you said what? I have to say, My wife at the time was supportive. I think part of her, The kids were young, So it wasn't really a conversation to have with them. And I think she probably realised, Like anybody I spoke to at the time, It may not make sense to them, But there was this conviction somewhere, It may be in your voice. And she heard that in some way. Yeah, I think so, Even though I couldn't perhaps hear what you said at the time. So then over that Christmas period, Harborne High Street, Somebody put a flyer in my hand that said Llewyn Rowan. Oh, So you didn't even have the Reiki at that time? Not at that time, No. Wow, I didn't know that. So it's a set process, Frankfurt Airport, Christmas Eve, Reiki. Didn't somebody say something, An old lady say something to you at the airport then? That was the trip before. So an elderly lady had come up to me, I was going up to the bar, It was my round trip, Three pints of Guinness. And she said, I need, Can I have a moment of your time? And she said, This might not mean anything to you, But I see a walrus, And it didn't. I didn't have to say anything to it. You thought she was up to drink? I thought she wanted a pint. I said, Yeah. And so she said, Look up and see a walrus, And I just need you to know that your life is gonna change direction. Wow. This was about a month before all of this. So whether a seed, I guess a seed was planted subconsciously. When she said that, What did you just shrug it off? Or did it say the same? I sort of went back to the table and couldn't forget about it. Over the next few weeks, It lessened, But. There was a resonance of truth that you heard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then ended up in a reiki class at Cadbury College a month later, Bournville College a month later. I had no idea what I was doing. Pat Mansell, Was it Pat Mansell? Bless him. Pat Mansell. And in that room, For the first time in my life, I've done Sunday school and sang the hymns. I've done the happy clapping. Yeah. Happy clapping. Over those couple of days, I've got this sense that there definitely is something bigger. Yeah. That was connected to something. There was just too much in that room that just kept making sense to me. Again, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know if it was God. I didn't know if it was silence. I didn't know if it was nature, But there was something that was just gently weaving its way through the group. So it was almost like when you kind of take that first step, Almost like everything's a relationship. So the relationship of Reiki stepped forward at that time. Well, Dr. Asui, The originator of Reiki, Said he finds you. And that's what he did. You don't find Reiki, You find you. On some level, In some way, You put out a bit of a call and Reiki, Universal energy, Floats to you. So that flyer was answering that. A need in there. So you kind of went into the Reiki, Did Reiki one-to-ones and then learned from Pat Mansell. And then was that the first class you taught when I went? Yeah, So Pat Mansell said to me, Pat Mansell was my Reiki master, And she said, I've been teaching at Cadbury College. I want to step away and I think you'd be great. I hadn't thought about it. I'd stepped out of the corporate world by this point. So you weren't working at all? No, The money, Yes. So the money was handy. And I thought that it would be three or four people sitting in a room about this size. And I turned up, Opened the door, And there were 18 women. I remember going in. And I remember walking up, And I could hear me footsteps walking to the front. I didn't know what the first. . . Your heart was banging. And then about two minutes into the class, The door opened, Me and 18 women, And you walked in, Said, Sorry I'm late. I remember thinking. Yeah, I mean, We had a fantastic time. Them women, They were sult and dirt. That was fantastic. And it was a great time. So from there, You kind of almost began to build up a practice really with ranking. Yeah, And at the time, I started journaling for the first time in my life. So I talked about this void. Put the corporate world down, Put down sales targets and marketing and advertising expectations. Then I started to think, So what is life if it's not that? And I just started to sit again of an evening and write a few things down. And I looked at religion, I looked at philosophy, I looked at common sense that people had told me. And there was a pattern that started to come together, Just a few steps. You know, You've talked in the meditation about being in the moment. I know that's done to death, But it's your start of a 10. The moment, Gratitude, Forgiveness. These things have started to come to you. Yeah, And then I suddenly realised that actually, These aren't just scribbles, There's something here. And then I went into an Oxfam bookshop and I went to reach for a book and another book fell off the shelf. And it was A Simple Path by Mother Theresa. Wow. And as soon as it came off, I thought, Your simple path. Yeah, I don't know if any of your lawyers are watching. And then your simple path, Yeah, I suddenly thought, There's a book. There's a book of your simple path. From the journaling. From the journaling. From the journaling, And I realised that actually, There was no chance, There was no, There were chapters. These things, They were in chronological order. It had flowed and maybe I'd just listened or maybe I hadn't gone in the way too much. So it almost become like a blueprint for you initially from the journaling, You know, The way to live your life, Because you'd give up, You know, Like the past, If you like, You know, The corporate world, And you've got nothing to anchor to. What are you anchored to? And then in these moments for me, You know, The door that Reiki gives you, Because that's what it was almost, Like it opened the door and started to journal. And then this philosophy started to come through. And then I remember, Because of the conversation we had about you saying, You know, I'd like to kind of one day write a book. So that seed from obviously the book falling off the shelf and then that another light bulb moment. And I remember from there you took yourself off, Didn't you? Almost like into the wilderness in a way, But you had this little place that you started to use and born out of that become your simple path. The beginning, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. It's the hard sell. So yeah, It came about five months later. So I literally hired a little wood shed for 10 pounds a week. It had a log burner, A table and a view over a meadow. It was leaking and everything, Weren't it? Yeah, Spiders leaking, Ducks, Family of ducks. And then after about five months of writing and I couldn't think of anything else. And I thought, I've written the last page. That's it, There was just this release of. . . So yeah, I put it out to three or four publishers. I had two offers, Which was absolutely amazing, But something said, Don't do it. And I think at the time, Amazon had just launched its self-publishing KDP and I launched it as an ebook. And within the first few months, A few thousand copies and it just started to appear on sort of lists. And then I had the same publishers copy and the same publishers come back with a better offer. Still nothing to retire young on. And I went with one of them old books. It's been a great relationship. And I think now five, Six, Seven years on, About 40, 000 copies in all guises. That's amazing. Found an audience and it continues to. . . So why the book? I mean, You kind of used it as a philosophy for yourself, But why did you want to put it out there? I didn't. Okay. I didn't know if I had to put it out there. So I wrote it for me, Really. The journaling was for me. As I started to talk to people who had gained my trust, Because this was all very different for me, People from the Reiki and I used to go sometimes to Reiki shares, Meditation groups, And I wouldn't tell them it was from a book, But they would say, God, That's right on the money. That's exactly so I thought, Okay. And then the day you press, I remember Amazon saying, Your book is ready. Would you like to go live around the world? And I pressed live, Go live. And I thought, What have I done? What have I done? And then. . . You opened up a box of worms. And now I remember, You know, Like you kind of taking yourself off, You know, Writing the book. I even remember you sending me a scribble of the book cover. Do you remember that little image? Yeah. And it was all kind of coming together. You put it out there on Amazon and then this realization, What have I done? And then your life went nuts, Didn't it? It was like, You started to promote the book. I mean, You give a lot of copies away. You give thousands of copies for free, Really. And you went on tour with the book, If you like. I went on tour with Shirley Cox, Shirley Scroggs. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, Shirley and I went round the UK and paid forward to it. Yeah. Free talks. Yeah. Just to promote the book. And then your life, In almost like the universe, In some way, Began to shake you up and said, You have an opportunity to practice some of the philosophy in there. Yeah. Now I know, You know, Like, You know, Things got very, Very difficult, You know, With your kind of relationship, With your daughter, You know, And even like houses flooding. I mean, Some of the things you went through, Your anxiety levels went through the roof. Do you want to just talk about whatever you feel comfortable with, You know, At that time, Because it almost like this went out there and life said, We're going to test you. Hmm. No. Yeah. Just whatever you feel comfortable with. Yeah, I just think that you're absolutely right. It was almost like, As I pressed go live, And somebody somewhere said, Can you walk it? Yeah. A bit of an Americanism, But can you walk it? And I had some real challenges, Like everybody who watches this at any point will have challenges in different guises. But yeah, I went through a divorce. We had an awful situation. We'd moved to Devon over that period of time. And we had an awful situation with flooding. The house was under thousands of gallons of water. We had to move out. For you to tell a brilliant story about the flooding. One night, I think it was at four o'clock in the morning. Yeah, We lived opposite a green lane. So it had turned into an idyllic place to walk a dog. And over that late autumn winter in 2012, It had turned into a river that kept coming through the house. And we were on our knees. Jesus. And we'd flooded once. The company had got us. And it was literally, It was three, Four feet of dirty, Filled water that was coming through the house every time. And we couldn't stop it. And then we were gonna flood again. We'd flooded twice. And I remember we were living in another house. We'd had to move out because of the severity of the flood. And I remember driving back and looking, And it was building again. The house was gonna flood again. And the insurance company was talking about, We can't keep covering it. It would cost you hundreds of thousand. And it was coming down this green lane, And our house was dilated. It was a yearly house. It was four o'clock in the morning. And I'd go up to the torch. I'd go literally a t-shirt. And my mind had gone, I was on my knees, Literally on my knees. Yeah. And it was building. And then I looked to the right, And there was two old sandbags ripped open. And something, Not audible, But something said to me, Put the sandbags there. So what people- In this calm, There's a storm going on. It's a bit of the night. And it's pouring. Yeah, It is calm. It's pouring. It's buckets. And this river's starting to flow towards our house again. And I've got these two sandbags, And I've got one in front of the other. So it formed like a line. And suddenly the flow of water, Thousands of gallons of water did that. And they start, They miss the house, And went down a lane to the river. Water just wants to keep moving. Yeah. And I remember standing there, And thinking, Well, The first thing I thought was, I wish I'd have put those two there two months ago. Yeah. But you didn't see them? But I didn't see them. Isn't that amazing? But in that moment, I'd give in. Surrender. Perfect. I was just about to say, Alcoholics anonymous, Say that you have to eat the bottle of water. You have to eat the bottom rung. You have to, Before you can start to climb again. If you're two rungs, Three rungs from the bottom, You've got, You've still got lower to go, Should you choose to. But you know, If you say that, I almost feel, Because they're words at the moment, But can you imagine, Anyone can imagine this, Middle of the night, Rain, Flooded, Absolutely saturated, Alone with a torch and nothing. And part of you prayed, Didn't it? You were on your knees and said, Out me, Out me. And then you saw the sandbags. I think I said, I can't go through this anymore. Where? Something like that. I mean, We're going back 10 years, But something like that. Yeah. It was like the scene from a film, Apart from with a awful accent. Yeah. And yeah, The two sandbags, And the whole direction of all that water, Just subtly changed and missed the house. But I remember you telling me the lesson from that, Which was the right thing appears at the right time. Yeah. You know, You might not have seen it before, Because you didn't. Yeah. You know, But then that moment when you needed it the most, Yeah. You saw it. Well, I think the right thing appears at always at the right time. Yeah. But we're too busy to notice it. I'm talking from a selfie. I'm not talking from a working phone. No, I agree, Yeah. So the noise in my head is too loud. The anxiety in my chest at times is too much. The to-do list is too long. And these right things just keep dropping, As if to say, Pick this up. Talk to that person. But of course, You know, You went to one of my talks once, And everybody said, Thanks, God, But I'll take it from there. I remember going to the other time, And we went twice, I think, But the one time I went there, And you began your talk, And you said, You know, Thanks, God, You've done a great job up to now, Like, You know, But from now on, I'll take care of it. And that's where you began your talk, And that's where it all went pear-shaped. And it still does, Because just as I think I've nailed it, I turn me back on the very thing that wants to guide me. We all do. And then I get into a mess again, And I pause, Normally sit in silence, And I'll just shake my head and turn back towards the light, The hum, The guidance, The silence. And it's- I have a great friend, Sorry, Who says more or less like that, You know, I go away and do my thing, Same as you, You know, Go on my knees and come back, And this divinity says we've been here all the time. You know, So it doesn't move. It's the one constant in life. Yeah. We move, Don't we? I talk about it sometimes as like a dim porch light. It never, Ever goes out, And it's on this porch outside. For some reason for me, It's this rural house, And the porch light's gently shaking, And I set off. Ha ha ha. I know, I'm finished with my flame. Yeah, And I set off into the darkness, And I start tripping up, And I get lost, And I get hungry, And I'm cold. And all I need to do is look back, Because it's always there. Yeah, It's coming home, Isn't it, Really, To that place of kind of stillness, Really? Yeah. So, From there, You know, You carried on with the book, You know, You've had all these issues with, You know, Your kind of relationship, Almost parting of ways, Because the next part of your life was about to begin. You know, Really, You've kind of finished the book, Gone on tour, You know, Your kids are kind of settling into their new rhythm, And then what? What happened? You remind me, What happened? So, From there, You kind of settled into Devon, Got your own place, You met someone. Yes. Yeah. And from there, What? Where are you now? Are we talking about literally now? Yeah. Okay, Yeah. So, Yeah, I'm with a lovely partner now, Ariadne, But you're fantastic. The right things appear at just the right time. And yeah, I've just got this sense recently to step back again. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, Because, You know, You've done Reiki here, You know, Since we began, Really, And you've always been the one that's done the Reiki, And that's coming to a close now, Isn't it? Almost like, You know, You're kind of not pulling back from the Reiki, Because I know it's your philosophy, You live by it, But almost like the next phase of your life, Because you've gone through phases with the corporate world, And then you've gone through almost like this transitional period of your life to try and discover who you are, What you're about, And what you're connected to. Yeah. You know, And kind of all that's famous level, You know, With your ex-partner, And she's good, And it's all good with the kids, And you've met somebody else, And you're in your own place, And then there's almost like a letting go again, Because at one point, Along with the book, You were driven, You know, Okay, I want to get this book out, I want to promote it, And tell everybody, You know, The philosophy, And share, You know, This philosophy, And fantastic, But now, There's another phase in your life. Yeah, Yeah, I'm getting a sense to, You see, If all of that isn't me, What you've just described, Who am I? Yeah. So the corporate world wasn't me, I didn't know who I was. This makes a lot more sense to me, But I still don't truly know who I am. So without the book, Without the name, Without the story, Who am I? So they're things that you've anchored to, Aren't they, Almost for that stability? Yeah. You know, So when you kind of let the corporate world the reiki came as a form of stability, And now you're letting that go to discover much more. You know, Where do you anchor to that? Hmm, Well I think, I don't know again, Is the answer. Yeah. And I think, You know, The enlightened few in thousands of years, The rest of us just search, But I think it's really important at times in your life, If things around you don't feel right, And I'm not talking about just people or relationships, I'm talking about just that sense that you're off centre, That you're away from your centre point, That you're not on the line. So I think it's time to stop. A good analogy would be, If you're lost, It's good to stop walking, Because you could just be moving further away from the direction you should be taking. Now I've had a wonderful 10 years, 12 years, Of teaching reiki at this amazing centre, And I'll roll it out for the rest of this year, We'll run it down, But there's something else now. For you. Something else for me, And I don't know what it is. It's, You know, It would have been so easy, I've got another book with the publisher lined up, Seven years ago, I haven't gone back to writing. So I'm just gonna stop walking for a while. But don't you feel in like, You know, With all, Everyone now, You know, Since lockdown, You know, That big shank of where you're in, Still even now, That people, I don't know about you, But more and more people are sensing something similar that you're sensing now. Yeah. And can't quite put the finger on it, Almost like, Not lost, But it's beyond seeking. I can't quite put my finger on it, But it's almost like not a slowing down and an alignment, But there is that involved, You know, To kind of almost throw away all these different labels to discover who we really are. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think COVID has knocked us all off our axis. In a good way. In a good way. I mean, We thought, You know, We thought it was disastrous. We thought furlough was the end of the world. Yeah. We thought, You know, I mean, One thing that, And I know the mind, Body, Spirit world's done this to death, But the one thing that it's taught everybody is, We're not in control. If you grasp onto control, You will suffer. If you grasp onto needing something a certain way, Further down the line, You will suffer. The only thing we had was each day in furlough, Each day in lockdown, And for some, It drove them mad. And I get it, Absolutely. But it really sort of planted a seed with people who thought they could map out the next 25 years that there's no foundation for life. But you know that uncertainty, It's a scary place to be. So the first thing you've had to have is courage to step into the unknown. And that's what you're even doing again now. Yeah. Almost like stepping into, I don't know, You know, What's the combo, Because I know we had a conversation the other week, You know, I don't know if I'm going to write, Not write, I'm just going to kind of step into, Almost like this nothingness. Yeah. And that takes courage to do. It takes courage to do, But the right thing will show up at the right time. Yeah, Because you've had that, You've got that belief. No, My ego takes over and said, I'd like the right time to be the middle of March, I have a couple of weeks off, And then I'll get back into it in March. The right time might be three, Four, Five months away. The right time might be tomorrow. But if I keep walking, I could be going in the wrong direction, Pause, Just take a breath, Have a look around, See if there's two sandbags lying about. Fantastic analogy. And almost realigning to that voice that you've heard in those moments of desperation, To kind of discover what that voice is connected to perhaps. Yeah, Exactly that. But you have to get past the noise for that. How do you do that? The truth is it's not simple, But it's not easy. Everybody has to find the way through. So for a while, Red Wine and Van Morrison got me there. Yeah. You know, Damien Rice got me there, Some music by its very nature. But the one seed that was planted for me around Reiki was silence. I can't believe I've been so loud for so long. See, If an issue come into my life or I needed to sort something out, It tends to come with noise, Even now. You don't get too many silent issues. So what I've done for most of my life, And at times now, Because I forget, I think I know what I'll do. I'll get louder than the issue. Because if I create more noise and more heat, I'll be bigger than the issue. But the issue tends to get louder than you and starts bouncing off. So what I've found is if I can just fall silent, Call it meditation, Call it walking through the local wood, Call it sitting on a park bench, But you can be anywhere. But if I can consciously become silent, Then it creates, I'm not saying answers start flowing to me like the old Donald Walsh, But it creates a little bit of space, Just a bit of space between all of that noise. I'm not saying the noise goes away, The issues and the worries, But something in me says, You know that's not gonna be around forever, Don't you? That's temporary, Because everything goes. And so for now, Sit on this park bench. For now, Just keep taking a few steps through this wood and just keep with that bit of space between this and the craziness. And what happens then to you is that noise goes down, A, Because you've created a bit of distance, And B, Because it always does. Everything is temporary, Everything. So in that gap, Almost like that stillness, I think we can find our true nature. Because we're so busy searching, You know, Out here and like, And kind of made to feel we need this, That and the other. I'm as guilty as everybody of chasing those, And still do. Even like driving the centre forward in my own way and you with your own thing. You've come to a different standpoint now, You know, In as much as you want to discover what's in the gap, You know, Which is an amazing space. So I think here's the thing, We call it happiness, We call it success, But ultimately, All as we're looking for is freedom and inner peace. Just freedom from the suffering. Suffering is a big word, But you know, In Buddhist terms, It means the ability to live with an open heart and a calm mind, Just for a few minutes a day. And you know, I've sat in this room with you a couple of years ago and said, I'd give everything I've got for five minutes of inner peace. And now I've found more than five minutes, You know, But life is life. So here's what I've come to find. For most of my life, And again, Even now, I keep going in search, In search of happiness, Whatever that is, I don't even know what it is, In search of success, In search of things, In search of the bits that are missing so I can be complete. And yet, I've come to know that if I can just sit here and there with you, In silence, All of that comes to me here, Call off the search. Now- That's a great title for a book there, Isn't it? Call off the search. It is, Yeah. Because really, Even from childhood, You know, Like Christmas, And then we'll give them gifts and almost like that brain, That mindset, Is almost instilled in us to chase things. You know, Like, So I got, You know, A car I loved about five, Six years ago, And I loved it, But the love didn't last. You know, You might've had things, And these people might've had things in the past, Where they've loved and they've wanted it, And when they've got it, It lasted all of three minutes. Absolutely. And so what you're saying is, You've achieved all of those things, They never bought you the success, The happiness, The joy, The inner peace. You're not searching for them anymore. Well, I know they won't give it, Mate. Yeah, Not searching externally. You need to stop walking. You need to stop walking towards the things that haven't brought you to yet. Isn't that like the irony of your book, Is like it's almost as steps. You know, You get the analogy that you're walking through steps, And now you've discovered, I don't need to step anymore. I don't need to walk anymore. I need to stop on this path. I need to pause. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Thank you. So you're settling, Devon, And life's good now. And when you look back over the past few decades, If there's one thing you've learnt about yourself, What would it be? You could have tipped me these questions. I thought I saw it. If there's one thing I've learnt about myself, What would it be? That I create my own suffering. So is the responsibility for that. Yeah, That I've been unable to take, To accept and take responsibility for the things that have happened in my life. And so I've blamed others and loosened the chance I've got to become well myself. And if there's one bit of advice, You know, We spoke about, You know, Some things earlier on that you'd wanna give somebody else. And you spoke about forgiveness earlier. But if there was one kind of thread, One kind of a bit of advice that you have to give someone you love, That would help them reach the point where you're on the edge of, Or coming close to them. What would it be? I'm gonna quote you. The simplest things deliver my deepest needs. The simplest things deliver your deepest needs. Your suffering is very, Very rarely in this moment. The suffering is always something that's happened and we can't let go, Or something that we're desperate for or think we need, That we can't control the outcome of. And the simplest things in this moment deliver your deepest needs.