Peace Walks Inward: Pilgrimage, Duality & Dharma With Asoka

1:22:17

1:22:17

Peace Walks Inward: Pilgrimage, Duality & Dharma With Asoka

by Joshua Dippold

Type

talks

Activity

Meditation

Suitable for

Everyone

Plays

13

In this wide-ranging Dharma conversation and a kind of follow up episode, Asoka and I discuss types of identity and self-exploration (e.g., her ongoing shaved-head practice as a lay eight-precept holder despite no longer living monastically), then pivot to the viral Walk for Peace. We also talk: resolving inner conflict; Brahma Viharas; non-duality; paradoxes; spatial/situational awareness; breath-focused meditation; Inspirations; Bodhgaya; merit; freedom from; contentment

Dharma Identity Buddhism Peace Non Duality Brahma Viharas Meditation Freedom Self Love Identity Exploration Inner Peace

Meet your Teacher

Plymouth, UK

Meet your Teacher

Plymouth, UK

Transcript

Holiness, Welcome. This is Josh from Integrating Presence and today I have Asoka with me. Asoka, What's happening? Sorry, Yeah, You already said good morning. So good morning. Good morning. Good afternoon here in Bangkok. Happy New Year, A bit late. It is. So Asoka is back for the, Maybe a part two, But something different too. So we're going to figure it out kind of as we go along. We've already talked for probably over a half an hour beforehand about all kinds of Dhamma talk topics, And I would consider Asoka a Dhamma protector, Dhamma enthusiast, And Dhamma globetrotter maybe, I don't know, Amongst many other titles. So if there's any kind of introduction you want to give to yourself for people who haven't listened to the first episode, Or we can skip right over that and jump in to kind of what you want to talk about today. It's interesting that you're asking me this because I've been wondering myself in terms of identity, What kind of identity do I have? Do I have a solid identity or not? None in disguise, Basically. That's why my head is shaved still, Although I'm not living in a monastery. And usually how I introduce myself is an A-precept Upasaka. So an A-precept lay practitioner. And can I add a little something? Go straight into the topic. The more I'm watching the Walk for Peace of all these monks, Monastics walking and doing something which concretely contributes to let some practices, Some schools of Buddhism actually, Be a little more known, Because usually Buddhism isn't really proselyting, Right? Especially Theravada. Theravada, It's also very culturally associated with Southeast Asia. So the more I watch them, I'm saying, Sometimes I'm really thinking, Why haven't I ordained? Why I'm still an A-person? So here we are in, What month are we in? January of 2026. For people that don't know what you're talking about, I would imagine a lot of people do because it's been kind of a media sensation to tell people a little bit about what you're talking about, This Walk for Peace. And then why do you think it's become so popular? Because I've been imagining things like this happen every once in a while, But just don't get the media attention that this has gotten so far. Yes. So we're talking about a group of, I think initially there were 26 monastics, And they come from a monastery in Texas. But I just found out recently as well that they had also done a similar walk in India. And that's how they brought this dog, Aloka, How they brought it back to, How it was brought back to the US, I mean, Brought to the US basically. So at the moment they currently are engaged in 120 days practice of walking. But while the practice of walking from monasteries, From places to places is very common in Theravada, It's called the practice of tudung. Usually that's what monks do during certain times of the year from monastery to monastery, Which is a practice of nomadism and a practice of non-attachment. But in their case, They are doing it with a specific purpose of peace. So the message is peace. So it's a sort of engaged Buddhism. They're walking for peace. And listening to so-called the leader, The one, The monk who walks ahead in the line of monks, Usually they walk on seniority of vasa. So they walk in seniority of how long they've been ordained, Something like this. But I don't know if they follow that in the current book. So I've listened to one of his talk, You know, When they stop for walking, Or when they stop for having a meal, Or when they stop for overnight, He said, Peace is something you achieve inside first. So he's giving, He's basically giving snapshots, Nano Dharma talk every time to a population that is from all walks of life. And that's very, We might be accustomed to listen to this, You know, Develop inner peace, Be mindful of what you're doing before you talk, Be aware of your, You know, Your mind's defilements, Be aware how you speak to others, Be aware of how you position your body, Be aware of your actions and things like this. So body, Speech and mind, You know, These are the three components of your training. But he speaks in a way that is really accessible to all, And especially people of all ages and all walks of life. And he's gathering momentum in the US at the moment. It's what started to, With just a few, I would say, Just a handful of people you can count on your on your two hands. It's now thousands, Tens of thousands of people. So what is going to happen when they reach in Washington DC? I don't know, But it's going to be massive. And the thing is, They also encounter some challenges. So I've seen in a video, The past few days, They were stopped on the road by a preacher who was telling them, Stop, You're going straight to hell, Because you're diverting from the word of Jesus, You know, Things like this. So what was interesting in that moment was the calm, The non engaging, And a very gentle way of saying, Okay, We are not going to hell anyway. But if that is what you think we're doing, Let us do it. You know, No, You cannot do this, Because I love you. You cannot do this. Please don't go to hell. And he said, We are not going to hell anyway, If that is your belief. Thank you so much for sharing it. But we would like now to continue to walk because we are on a different, You know, On a different path. So these little events, But the majority of the encounters are really, Really a message of peace, And also how to break it down to really understanding how living in the world today requires that sort of inner peace that we've been developing with our practice, Or that we might be more attuned to. Because we are, You know, We are living. . . Yeah, To say the least. And, You know, I haven't followed this very carefully. I have seen it online. And yeah, It just surprises me how much media attention that it's got. But of course, The message, The true message of peace, If it were really sincere about this, And there's no other political purposes involved, Which we'll see, You know, What happens in Washington, Right? I don't know that the backgrounds of these monks or anything like that, But which just go on what's presented to us, Right? This notion and message of peace, The true message of peace is so very important. And I feel with all the shenanigans going on, I mean, I like my country, And at the same time, There is so much warmongering and so much war that America is known for, Right? And I don't want to have anything to do with it, Completely into non-harming. So that's the core. And so, But now when we take that and leave that aside as a political topic and internalize non-harming, That to me is peace, Non-conflict. Because I would say, At least in the past for me, There's so much inner conflict, Right? Just within us. And so, How is that going to inform how I'm with everyone else? So, Once we have come to terms with this inner conflict, Then of course, My whole external life and my interactions and the way I relate and respond to everything around me is going to benefit when I work directly on such inner conflict and work to resolve that and come to terms and know how to deal with, Relate and manage that, And let go of a lot of it too. Because if we look closely within, We realize a lot of it's not really needed and necessary. And I think the Brahma Viharas are really helpful for resolving and dissolving some of this inner conflict. And not only that, But relating to everything. It's the best way I've come across to relating to everything internally and externally is with these four Brahma Viharas, These four divine abidings. Yeah. Yeah. So, The four divine abidings, There's loving kindness and sympathetic joy, Or supporting the effort of others also. Because sympathetic joy say, Well, I don't like that fellow. So, I don't care what that. . . It has. . . Rejoicing. I like rejoicing. Rejoicing. Yeah. Rejoicing at the success of others. And then compassion and. . . Equanimity. Basically. Equanimity. That's a good. . . Yes. I like this. I'm a little. . . Maybe because I speak numerous languages. So, I've come and realized, Yeah, But you know, If you're going to that language and speak of equanimity, It's understood to a Cartesian, To a French Cartesian structure of language. It says, Yes, But then I need to. . . But if you speak about resilience, It becomes, Oh, Okay, Now I know what you mean. But equanimity means I have to be equal. I have to. . . So, I think it's because I know a lot of languages. I've come to my understanding, But yes. So, If I may just make a point, One of the first talk I heard about this monastic, He said, We are not connected with any politics. It's my witnessing in my life as a monastic. I've witnessed so much suffering. So, I want to do something. And basically, Along the road, They speak to a number of people and everybody starts. . . Lots of people burst into tears. And he said, I've witnessed a lot of suffering. And I want to realize that. . . I want people to realize how that suffering is not necessarily only caused by external condition, But we might be the ones who are maintaining it. So, You have to understand you're training your mind. So, He's coming into that point of saying the mind. And that comes with, You know, Start loving yourself. So, You know, Loving kindness for yourself before. . . For some people, It's very difficult to be kind to themselves. So, Understanding that, And then develop an understanding how some of the, What is called in Buddhism, The three poisons, Greed, Hatred, And delusion, Or you can call it greed, Violence, And delusion, Or whatever it is, You know. Ill will. I like the word ill will. Ill will. How those are actually connected to everything that stands behind the mind. A root. They're the unwholesome, Poisonous roots. Yes. Exactly. I know that in Himalayan Buddhism, It is also, There's two more, In the poisons, Two more I have added. One is jealousy, Which is a jealousy, Basically the opposite sort of rejoicing. But it has the other dimension. And also there is ignorance, Which is avijja in Pali, Which comes as delusion. But they define it differently in the sense it goes from the point of not having a right view. So, Your starting point is already kind of unwholesome in the basic. But I really appreciate the work that they are doing and that momentum that they are gathering. Because I think there's a seed being planted there. Somehow it might dissolve. And it's not planned because there is an opposition as something happening politically in the US at the moment. It's just, That's a good timing for things to happen, You know. Maybe they will become, You know, Like Thich Nhat Hanh also did something similar. Many, Many, Many. Actually, That main monk is actually Vietnamese. You were right in that sense. Anyway, The Brahma Viharas, To come to the point of inner peace, How do you develop inner peace when it's completely crazy outside? You can't avoid what's happening outside. Unless you are in a position of decision making, Or you are involved in that, You can only work in your own leverage, Your own environment leverage. And your first immediate environment is your mind. Yeah, I was just going to jump in here and say, And this is why I've been so disillusioned by politics in general, Is because it's just, If the problem was politically created, I don't think another political solution is going to solve it. So I look at this and I look at politics in the United States and it just goes back from left and right. And there's these two false choices. The only way I think anything is ever going to change on a fundamental last minute, Level, And maybe this is an oversimplification, But it has to come from within. We have to work on ourselves. And that's the only way really. And I found this in my own experience, That when I change internally, Then my whole world around me seems to change. I mean, Now if it does literally or not, That's not what I mean so much. I mean, Maybe yeah, But it's how I view things and then how I can respond to things instead of reacting, Right? It's, I'm able to see so much more than I couldn't see before. Then working to, On these defilements, Like you talked about, You know, This, These are like the roots of everything wrong in the world, Greed, How much of the ills of the world are driven by greed. But we can't just go and fight people that are greedy, You know, Because in the Dhammapada, Right, It says ill will, Then ill will, That's the antidote is metta or non-ill will. So, Ill will will never be overcome by more ill will, Only by non-ill will will be overcome. This is an ancient and eternal law. So, These things are done internally first, I feel, And foremost, Because if I don't have a degree of non-greed, Non-ill will, Non-delusion, Well, Then how am I going to help change anything in the external world to the degree that I can if it's there within first, You know? And so, That's the way I look at it. Again, I wouldn't see the value of this until, You know, How do we get people to actually value that and see how important it is? Because for us, It's second nature and a no-brainer, But for other people, We're trained, Everything external, Right, We're trained through, This is the external world, There's nothing, I mean, Within, That's something else for like therapists, Maybe, Or something like this, Yeah. Yeah, But what you're talking here is people see, There's a tendency to see the reality in terms of duality, Right? So, The conventional, The conventional world, The conventional reality, Which we need to act, You know, Conventionally, I cannot go to the bank and say, Josh promised me that he would give me a hundred thousand, And Josh is my friend, So please, Behind, I have to say, I have to show papers, My identity, Ahsoka, Josh, Here. Yeah, You can't say money's a concept, You can't say money's a concept, It doesn't mean anything, So you can just give me all this paper, You can just give me all this paper, It means nothing, Right, Yeah. You need to use some of the tracks or the path that allow you to be conventionally, To go from, On Monday, To go from Bangkok to Bodhgaya, I can't just teleport, Although I can do a lot of teleporting, I need to go to the airport and take a plane and physically go to Bodhgaya. I haven't seen anyone yet flying in the sky, But maybe it would happen, But this is one way of saying that we tend to live in a dual world and that dual world creates, Is reinforcing, I think, In my personal observation, Humble talking, It reinforces the, How to say, The triggering or the springing of these poisons, Of the unwholesome roots, Because I'm good, They're bad. So, If you haven't trained your mind to actually see, Yeah, But hold on, What makes me say this, That I'm good, They're bad? Yeah, Okay, They are not very wholesome, But what can I do? Can I go to XYZ and say, Hey, What you're doing here is not correct? I could, But I don't have that leverage, And that's, I've had a long, I've had several conversations with people, Talking even about people who come from countries who, That have been constantly on conflict, Right, And when you talk to them and you say, How are you still alive? Well, Because I developed compassion, And eventually you develop compassion and you also realize that to a certain extent you can't function. So, You need to step out of this conventional world and develop your own inner peace. Now, For some people, It means stepping completely outside and maybe not developing, Training the mind, But just, I develop compassion. My state has been in conflict. Millions of people have been passing away and dying for the past millennia. It seems like it will never stop. What can I do as a human being to stop that? Nothing. So, I can step out. But other people say, Those, As you say, For us, No-brainer. If you develop your mind, You train the mind to see that, Hold on, As Gandhi was saying, Somehow, You know, You have to do your cleaning in your own kitchen before you can actually do certain things. It means, Look at yourself first. You need to change you to have the change happening. Oh, Yes, But that has never happened. I've made all those people walking, Monks walking in the street will never make America a peaceful world. Me being trained in mindfulness will never not make my environment, But it might make my family more peaceful. You learn to have a not, To start living in a non-dual reality where what you put in comes back at you in a way, But also in a non-dual world, You realize how there is not just a conventional world. There is a different world that you can tap into. So, When you start really observing what is, As you say, For us, Maybe a little more normal, You know, You kind of start having a synchronistic thought with someone. You start having only realities that are made of metta, So loving kindness. Personally, I can say, Give you an example, You know, I never really have an obstacle where people have obstacles. Why? I don't know. I live maybe in a different, So there are different planes of existence, But if you definitely only live on the conventional level, You're going to have several issues, Because the samsara is made of these unwholesome roots. And I think also, If you remember yourself, The Buddha also spoke about this, You know? Yes. So, Someone the other day was asking, Why is the Buddha always presented as sitting down? And why is the Buddha always presented as someone who detached himself from everything? I said, Yes, He detached himself from everything, But to come back in a better way. There is a level of detachment. You have to go a little bit on retreat. You have to step out a bit from what you are accustomed to. And that's that comfort zone, That little void between the comfort zone and stretching in the comfort zone, Or stepping out, Where, How do I start? Okay, Every morning, Before you can decide, Every morning, Before touching the phone, First thing, I take a breath. Okay, How is that going to help? Well, Try it. I'm just saying try. Because scientifically it's proven it works, But if you don't try, You will not know. How can I try not to be angry at being bullied? Well, Realize that that person is having a bad day. It's not about you, You know, Things like this. It requires so much that eventually the seeds of the mindfulness path for yourself start. And then you start entering a completely different realm where it becomes easy to go to the bank and ask for money from John. You know, I mean, Living around monastics also helps understanding these how-to. Because the monastics, Even though they are on retreat, They still have to interact with the conventional world. For instance, Receiving meals, Or in other traditions as well, Having answer questions that for them are completely maybe irrelevant, You know. If they are not householders, How can a monastic who's not a householder, Who's never been a householder, Understand the issues of a householder divorcing, Children going to school? Because we, You know, For them, They are going to give you the base for you to understand your own problem. So I think that that inner peace is the seed for at least developing better humans in this world somehow. And it's important whether it is expressed by walking on a walk of peace for 2, 500 kilometers, Miles, Or whether it is to sit on meditation. I don't know what your take is on this. Raise so many good things, Ahsoka. And I think the kind of skepticism you present there is really helpful too, Because people, You know, What difference does it make? You know, This kind of apathetic giving up. And I would say people in power, They bank on that, That people get either outraged in conflict, Or they throw up their hands and say, What can I do? I can't do anything. It's pointless. I don't care. Just going to check out and do nothing. But even, You know, The Buddha said, Drop by drop, The water bucket's filled. I say this a lot. I use this a lot. But everything can potentially add up to something. So don't think, You know, Good's not going to come to me, Bad's not going to come to me, Or whatever. Every little thing does matter. And, You know, It's cliche, But the longest journey starts with one step. You know, We're seeing that in this play out, Right? So don't think that it doesn't matter. I mean, This gradual effort, Just a little bit here and there, It will add up over time, Especially if you keep with it. And a seed, Like you mentioned, A seed is another great metaphor for that. You know, Some seeds won't sprout, But others will. And others will be very fruitful and plentiful and beneficial. And, You know, Others maybe are more weeds. And sometimes they take really long time, But they can get really huge too over time. So, You know, You mentioned why you have all these good things coming. And they reminded me of another sutta that basically preceptors, They get their wishes granted in a way. You know, I don't know, I have to find the exact sutta, But basically, Especially a preceptors, They're saying that their wishes are more easily fulfilled when they're keeping precepts. So it's really amazing how foundational this ethical practice is for me and how important it is. And in Thai forest tradition too, I feel in Thailand that the precepts are really important. You know, Now the non-dual thing, This one, Maybe we can explore more because I know this is you have more of a Vajrayana background. And for me, I think it's a great concept and it's really helpful. And some of these teachings are so deep and so profound, And they're helpful to me. The few things I have trouble, Let's just say not trouble or maybe, But I'll ask you about, I don't really have a clear definition on what non-duality means. And even the term non-dual right there accepts that there is a duality, Right? So how can there, You know, Be non-dual with the duality? But what I'm the most want to know about is how we actually take those non-dual teachings and practices and then go on the street with the average Joe who is so far removed from this. It makes a lot of sense to me and brings a lot of peace and inner calm and puts me in a really great mind state and heart state with these teachings and really contemplating and feeling into them and using them. But then when I go into the everyday world, You just, It's just like, I'm not to the point where I can just pretend that Joe Schmo, That's not the right way to put it, But okay, How do I then take this wisdom of non-dual teachings and then use it for mutual benefit with just the man on the street, You know, That's completely asleep, You know, In either good ways or bad ways. So that's, Yeah. Well, The non-dual, Non-duality has, Is put it in really plain terms, Not would say almost non-technical or non-jargon or just plain, Really plain, Is realizing what is usually commonly called what you put in you get. So realizing a form of interdependence of everything, Of your body, Speech and mind, It's really literally the ball you throw comes back at you in that way. So it's seeing, You say you don't have certain things happening, But it's because you perceive them also differently. So it's, It's what is also called understanding how different levels of consciousness are operating. There is a very popular thing, If you have a golf ball consciousness, You just have a very narrow perception of the world. It's really to keep it plain is like that, Is to realize that the actual natural state of things that seems to be moving around or being permanent and stable, But actually you, We just are passing by, You know, Bangkok will be here probably in 50 years, But I won't be watching this building the same way because I might not be here. Non-duality is, It really is having a clear understanding of the interdependence of everything that occurs within body, Speech and mind and interactions with other people. Interactions, So the other person, The other people around there are a reflection of what you're calling. Does it make sense? No, It doesn't make sense in a conventional world. It doesn't make sense. But no, What I meant by, What I meant by, To me, Those are in Theravada teachings, You know, That's dependent origination. That's the interconnectivity of dependent origination. That's kind of a trained mind with, With, With Samadhi, You know, And this isn't kind of an expanded consciousness, But I guess the, Some of the non-dual teaching, And I don't want to get in the weeds here, But I'll just say this, What I meant by non-dual teachings is stuff like there is no, There is no observer and there's no observed, Right? Everything is one kind of this, When they're presented in certain ways, They can be like this watered down new age thing. That's not helpful, But actually what you said there is very helpful. And all those teachings are in Theravada too, You know, But I get this, This self and other, I think that's where it's really helpful in a sense, Like how hard is there a self and how hard is there an other. Exactly. Dissolving those boundaries. That's exactly that. They tried, And it's really helpful dissolving those boundaries in some sense, But then depend, Probably, And you mentioned kama too, Cause and effect, Intentionality. So it does help dissolve these boundaries a little bit, But then I guess, I don't know what it's depended on, But then it seems flimsy, You know, That's, That's what I meant by that, Because it's using kind of a mind trick to be helpful, To dissolve these boundaries that really aren't there to begin with. But it's almost like I've seen some people kind of spaced out and not being able to take some of what they've realized or are seeing or think they understand. And then they get, When they take that to the quote unquote real world, I don't know, It doesn't, Doesn't seem to translate well, Or I don't know what I'm trying to say here, But that's. You're trying to, You're trying to see that if you apply, If you don't, If you don't have a understanding, Or if you, If your understanding is too much on the intellectual level, Then when you step out, It's not going to work because there is no other opening, Like the heart opening, Consciousness opening. You haven't developed what is called in the Theravada tradition, The paramis, You know, To, You know, To loosen up this self of, This sense of identity. The other day, I completed a book, Which is written by Pachok Rinpoche. He's a younger, From the lineage of Tulku, Ugyen, Rinpoche. So it's a Karmakarju Vajrayanatish. But he wrote this book basically around the concept of dignity. And why am I speaking about dignity and non-duality? It's because it comes into the sense to dissolving the boundaries that you might have between I am, These are, But at the same time, Understanding that you also have a form of integrity. So other teachers call, Would call this having compassion and having to help. Okay, This person is suffering a lot. I need to help. Can I actually help? Do I actually have the skills to help that person? And how can I help? And does that person want to be helped? So it goes, That boundary can become very loosened and not understood probably correctly, Deeply. And that becomes what is called idiot compassion. Some other teacher called that the idiot compassion, Like Chogyam Trungpa was calling that idiot compassion, Which means I have to help because I need to be compassionate. I love to become, I love to give, I'm a giver. So I need to give. But then you lose your own dignity because you can't sleep anymore. Maybe you haven't eaten. It comes at the detriment. It actually depletes your own capacities. And the Buddha also said that, You know, We do have this experience of having this human life, This human body is given to us. It's very rare because there are a lot more ants than there are human beings. So it's very rare to obtain this human. And if you have the chance to hear the Dharma or to, You know, Understand a bit about your mind, Just have that dignity to sometimes say, Okay, You can have compassion, But it doesn't mean, Don't go too much out of your way. And sometimes that fact that non-perceiving, The actual understanding of non-duality means I have to help. You know, This, You and me is the same. We are one. No, No, No, We are not one because we don't have the same karma. We come from, At the subatomic level, We are one. We are made of the same flesh and bones, But we are not one because our intentionality before we were born and during this. No, I am a very, Very strong on that, But, You know, I keep it for myself because it goes against someone. But that non-duality can easily become, Okay, We are one. We are one love. Now, Love is very important, But maintain the dignity of your practice. Maintain the dignity of your sense that you are not that so much important. So you're very right. You're very right when you speak about the self-identity because it actually touches the very important point across all the schools of Buddhism about non-self. So what we are seeing today is a lot of proliferation of teachings coming in all directions, Including Buddhist teachings and a lack of understanding of that Buddhism is not nihilism, Nihilism, That, You know, There's nothing exists. So I don't have a self. So no matter what I do, You are like me. No, It's the grasping attachment and the grasping is not so much about the assets. It's about the sticky mind. How do you stick to the stories you tell yourself? If you're losing that, You start really realizing non-duality. Yes, The other person is suffering more than me. That doesn't mean that I have to help every single person I meet on the road, But it means that I can be kind to that person. We enter another path where this non-duality becomes, You know, It's not like a concept you have to, It's not like glasses you have to put in and remove. It's just your world becomes a completely different world. So when you see things happening in the reality, Like warmongering and this and this, You realize why they are doing this because they're unwholesome roots and sorry for them, But I can't change them. So I have to only, I can only rely on my own inner peace. And I'm really coming back to that. It's really, And I was actually thinking and what we were going to discuss, To come to converse about our conversation today. And I said, You know, I come up with this, What is inner peace? It's love in action. Love for yourself first, But it doesn't mean you have to become so selfish that you don't love. It means you even, You love your heart. You can go inside the body. You love the stomach. You love your, Start there and then everything starts softening up because eventually you can't battle so much outside. And by developing that love in action for yourself, You're developing it for others. And then you can step into other paramis and then you can, You know, You start understanding on, I don't know, These are also the basics of healing. You know, There's a lot of, There's a lot of healing and understanding and practicing Buddhism as you want to put it, Just globally like this. Exactly. So great points here. So the self-love I want to get on in just a second, But I wanted to address some of this. What Sokka mentioned here, There's a lot of paradoxes, You know, And I found that a lot of the spiritual path is being comfortable with these paradoxes because when it's, There'll be one thing presented one way, Another thing presented another way. And if some things are just paradoxical and that doesn't mean that they're, They invalidate each other. It's just, When we talk about teachings like this and views, They're just, They're, They're so subtle and so profound that a lot of times we don't have normal worldly reference points for this. So the, What needs to be pointed back to again and again is an experiential level. So we're just trying to put words to things that we kind of see and know in our experience. And even though conceptually it's, It's really challenging to put it, Put a lot of these things in non-paradoxical language sometimes because they do are, They are paradoxical. It doesn't make them invalid or not helpful. So I can, I can totally see how people say, You know, I can't resolve this paradox. Yeah. A lot of them can't be resolved. So they just have to be comfortable holding paradox. And just a quick aside I found, Cause there's so much cognitive dissonance, Right? In our world too. Like one thing we'll say one thing and then somebody says the other thing and they're at odds, But I see the value of both of these and that can cause inner conflict or it seems to promote inner conflict too. But actually, If we take these two things that are causing cognitive dissonance and we can hold them lightly and sit with them, Then I've found, Yes, It may be unpleasant, But then these things start resolving themselves and working out and being okay with holding these two seemingly conflicting things. And then what I found is a lot of the distortions will start to fall away and more understanding and wisdom will start arising and then be able to kind of see through both and come to how it should be kind of held and responded to and addressed. I know that's kind of a lot of fancy language. I'd like to give a real solid example, But just think about two opposing things and how there seems to be some uneasiness. And if we can just hold both of those at the same time in our awareness and sit with the unpleasantness that's involved with that or comes along with that and see how they can kind of resolve each other and things can kind of fall away and there can be some peace with being able to be with those. It's also, I think, It's also an understanding in doing these things. There's a very big understanding that comes to, Or realization about how certain things work in the mind is, Where do these thoughts all come? Where do they come from? So there's a lot of imagery, You know, In Zen you say it's clouds passing by. So people who have a tendency to visualize very easily, They're going to start wandering in the clouds, But that doesn't mean that it's just imagery. If you actually understand who and what and where are these thoughts coming from and going and why am I sticking to it? So I'm coming back to the dignity, We're saying the issue is not so much having or not having, It's really the sticky mind and the storytelling attached to the sticky mind. Where is it coming from? This very strong sense of self that I am a solid person in flesh and bones, But the story I'm telling is basically my label, My inputting, My constant inputting that I am more important than the other. I am this and I am that and usually I'm coming in the elevator. I don't want anyone else in the elevator. And all this expanding, Expanding constantly and becomes so solid that that becomes your reality. But that's not the reality. So that's where there are issues. So whether you come from Theravada or you go to Vajrayana, You pass all the Madhyamika schools, Zen, Mahayana, Everything, Everybody, Everything touches back on that point. So how you develop inner peace, Loosen up the grasping on that sense of self. Clinging is the problem. Clinging, Like you're saying, The stickiness. I like that word sticky because that people can relate to. But clinging, People know what it's like for someone to be clingy, Clingy, Right? So that's where all the trouble, I mean, That one is pretty much everyone can relate to, You know, And how when we can loosen our grasp and not cling so much, How much peace and ease that we can feel in our own experience, Not a theoretical thing, But a real energetic reality. And yeah, Just a few words about, You know, The boundaries and it's really important, I find too, That just because, Well, For me, My compassion practice is first acknowledgement, Right? So just acknowledging to begin with, Some people don't want to acknowledge anything, But that's like the first step. Then comes care. And this is before we even do anything. And for me, That's a really challenging one because I have doubts about my own authenticity of care or if I'm caring enough, Right? Or if I'm caring in the right way at the right time. So it's a little bit different, I think maybe with males and females sometimes about that. So males kind of show care in a different way than females in general, Because we all have these feminine and masculine qualities too. But then it's like this wanting for this pain to be resolved, You know, Wanting for the pain to release and then to know peace. Now, Sometimes the most compassionate thing I can do is say, Okay, I need a boundary here. I need to get as far away as possible. And then I can do this from a distance because what I'm doing now is entangling with someone or something and I'm causing more problems than I'm helping with. So for me, At times like that, I have to do compassion from afar because there's just too much conflict or entanglement. I can always come back maybe, But that distance and boundary is needed for compassion, You know? And how do we have compassion for ourselves when we don't have compassion? So we can have compassion for the fact that we can't have compassion right now too. And as far as the self-love goes, To me a huge part of this is honesty, Right? Because when I first started doing these I Love You's to my heart, I've talked about this before, It just didn't feel honest, You know? It felt sappy and goopy, You know, And just not helpful. But that honesty itself is a form of self-love, Right? Being honest with ourselves. So hopefully most people that are watching this have already addressed this self-honesty, But there's plenty of people we interact with that haven't got there yet. And it's a huge form of self-love just to be almost brutally honest sometimes if some people haven't looked at themselves honestly and they're constantly kind of lying to each other themselves or are glossing things over. So I won't discount that as love either. And one of the ways that Ajahn Jeff uses that I like for Metta is just, You know, A really practical thing that it doesn't have to be an overt lovingness. It's just may you realize, Not you Ahsoka, But like someone that I have hard finding loving kindness to or Metta towards, Is may you soon realize the errors of your ways and change your actions for your own benefit and for those around you. You know, It's a very practical, Real, Direct, Kind of no-nonsense care for someone to acknowledge, No, They've done something unskillful and harmful even. But so my well-wishing to them is that they change, They see the errors of their ways and change, Not from a judgmental point, But from a place of care for wanting their well-being to come about. And to me, The ground level is just an absence of ill will. You know, It's not even an absence of ill will because that is so detrimental, You know, For me to harbor that I want to hurt something, You know, Even if it's just a thought that I'm not going to act on, It is so painful for the heart and has consequences and can start wars even with this, With ill will. So I think that's some of the things I want to address around. Interestingly, There, You know, I was involved in the global peace event in Bhutan. So it was enormous, Major. There were a few days we got about 100, 000 people. It had different section, I mean, Different section, Different events in one event, But it all involved chanting mantra or chanting aspirations, Prayer, You know, Like some of the paritta sutta, What you would call paritta sutta, Some of the, You know, Some of the very cardinal chants also. So there was basically two weeks, 10 days full on that. And what was interesting is being on the conventional level, I was really literally involved in doing a lot of logistics and moving around. So I haven't had a chance to sit down and enjoy like most of them. But on the unconventional level, When I was asked, And I had feedback with the prime minister office, He said, Did you attend? Did you, Were you able? I said, No, It's very difficult to be when you are the host to also, You know, Enjoy the party. Usually you are the one. However, On the non-conventional level, The energies were there. So got this look, Meaning, Ha! So it doesn't have that, But you get the energy of it. So that's also a way of explaining non-duality in the sense that sometimes we are removing ourselves from some places that we don't feel this is going to be maybe wholesome. And sometimes we are in places where, Oh, We gather, We get the benefits of having been there. And that's because at the unconventional level, We have attracted that. But what I wanted to say also connected with that is that some people were saying, Yeah, Okay, You chanting, You chanting, Chanting, Chanting aspiration mantras. How does that help for peace? Or like, You know, The monastics now have been walking, How does that help for peace? You know, Having peace means sitting conventionally at a negotiation table. Well, No, Not necessarily. And in part, Because you have to realize how much leverage you might have to do certain things. So if I expand what you're saying about having compassion for the self and having compassion for others, But understanding the interplay where we have a leverage or not, You start to realize how you can have compassion for some of these political figures that we see constantly on TV. Because the idiocy on what they base their action is just so blatant. You can only have compassion for individuals like that. And they are not just one, There are many. But when you understand, When I said that to some people, They were, How can you actually have compassion for such an individual? I said, Just look further, Dig further. The ignorance at the basis of, I mean, The unwholesomeness of even their intention. It's not a matter of judgment. It's just a matter of facts. It's separating the person from the defilement too. It's their defilements that are acting. Exactly. And they don't know they are doing this. That's where the compassion comes in. Come on, Fellow, You know, Really, I feel really sorry for you. The problem is that when you sneeze, Everybody else has a cold. That's the thing. But this is also where I think it's very, What I am a little concerned with, If I may step into a follow-up topic, What I'm a little concerned is that, And you know, I can only live with it. And that's where I really like to stick to wherever are the lineages and the teachers and the traditions, Where still what is called the perfect dharma is available. I like to stick to that. It's called, In other languages, It's called the perfect dharma, The true dharma, And not the deluded versions, Which can lead to what you spoke earlier, The spiritual bypassing. How come this non-dual thing, If you extract it from the, You know, You become very secular. It doesn't, I go outside and it doesn't work. People are attacking me. Okay. Because maybe there's something that is missing. So what I am concerned with, And it's been discussed a lot with a number of scholars as well, Is the world we are entering where AI becomes a major agent. How can we contribute to, I mean, Seeing already online, You know, A number of delusion and Buddhism says this, And the Buddha said, No, The Buddha didn't say anything of that. How do we maintain this? How can I say? The thread, The path is, I think, Something that I've learned a lot during this year by connecting more and more with Vajrayana schools. Really check the lineages of the teachers you connect with. If the person who's giving you a teaching or the, You know, Source on internet, On chat, GPT, Double check your facts, Your sources, Your information, But ask, Where is that source comes from? Where? What's the lineage? And that teacher, Can that teacher give me the names of his own or her own teachers? And it has to go up to a line of something. Then it has a sense. If it's just blah, Blah, Then everyone can create blah, Blah, You know, That's a little bit of a concern. And I think all of us who have been diving, Delving into Buddhism in a way or another, Whether it is from meditation, Whether it is, You know, From many entry points, I think we have a responsibility there to somehow, For me, At least for me, It's really my sincere aspiration to contribute to keeping tracks of what are the factors where somehow I appreciate some of even any of the teachers who say, Okay, Eventually the Buddha said that it's in the Sutta number one in this book, Because at the moment it can go in any other, In any direction. Yes. Very important. For me, It's very important. Just a few, A few words on that. This is one of the whole reasons I was drawn to what's called Buddhism is there's not very many doctrines, But the one of them that's been called the doctrine of open inquiry. And so I was always getting in trouble in school. I would partly take responsibility because there's, There's a type of unhelpful doubt, Right? Where you're doubting something because I'm right. I know it. And I want to show that you're wrong, Right? That's not the kind of doubt that I'm, I mean, That that's not a helpful doubt, Right? But open inquiry is the sincere wish to, To find the truth and, And, And a truth that's helpful. And Buddha, Where the Buddha said, You know, Ahipassago, Come and see for yourself, You know, You need to check this out and has to be seen and known for each wise one for themselves. So, And how do I learn a lot of things as I ask questions, But it's, It's, It's, It's questions in order to get at the real true meaning and an understanding and one that will benefit me and those around me, And especially in the longterm. So that's why I'm just, I love that it's encouraged to ask questions because some people take questions as, Oh, You're not respecting my authority. You're doubting me, You know, No, No, No, No. This is about getting to truth and holding, Holding things to it and taking on the accountability. So I don't recommend everyone do this, But I say again and again in my stuff, You know, Please, If I've made any mistakes or you could add something to it or give a little bit of a different understanding or teaching that will help me understand, Will help other people understand, Please do so. If I've got something wrong, Please reach out. Cause I know, You know, That this is really important to me. And, And like you said, The references and I don't, I get lazy about that too, But I'm, I'm totally into that. This is what we have to work with. Even to the point where I get a little bit nerdy on the original text, I would love, Love, Love to, For like the polytech society to list more in detail where they get the source texts from, And then try to go trace it back to the most, The oldest original text sources that we have and then preserve those in images. I know there's a lot of preservation and different schools going on, Which is great taking the images. Cause some of them can be really, You know, Flimsy palm leaves and things, But we, I mean, These are just as a scholarly pursuit, So it's not for everybody, But I think the more documentation and the more details and, But I don't know how we would do it for, Sorry, And I just wrapped this up cause this gets into a little bit more specifics than we want, But you know, Some of these texts might be hidden or well-protected too. So I don't know exactly how to do that. You know, Some of them might be interned and interned in a stupa or something protective somewhere, Or maybe kept away from the general knowledge in order to preserve it more. So I don't know exactly how to deal with that. But I feel, You know, Since in Theravada, At least there's no secret teachings that we can trace, Trace as far back as we can to the original text and have a cataloging system and a reference system to preserve, Because this is what we have to work with, Right? Now we can go into a whole nother talk of, Did the Buddha actually say this or not? That's another thing, But to have well-organized and documented what we do have to work with, It's really important, You know. Yeah. That as well, But you know that there's been several councils because initially it was a tradition, So we have to rely. But the Mahabodhi Society in Bangalore and the Pali Society in Sri Lanka has, I mean, There's the Pali Canon and the Pali Society. Yes. Sri Lanka is actually a good repository of the original text or whatever, Original quotes, Original teachings of the Buddha. Manuscripts too. I'm not talking about the physical manuscripts, Like the palm leaf manuscripts and the Gandhar fragments and all these things. I even went to the British Library and talked to one of the librarians about a little bit of this. But yeah, And there's huge digitalization efforts underway too. So I think these are all really cool things. And apparently, They also uncovered, Thanks to AI and thanks to GPS and GAS, No, No, GIS and GPS, So the geolocation and geolocalization, But of how the earth and the movements. Oh, GPS, Global Positioning Satellite. Yeah, And GIS. And the one that actually, GPS is more like the map, But it doesn't give you the actual location, You know, The actual layers of the territory. So apparently, They found some old Buddhist societies under some gods in India. So things that have, Yeah, That were covered over the years. So they found all sorts of, Yeah, I show you, I will show you. Yeah, No, No. There's a book, In Search of the Buddha. So it was a, You know, They literally unearthed so many things, Like some of the Ashoka Pillars, Even, You know, And so many things that were literally buried in India. It was some old white guys, European white guys that unearthed a lot of this stuff in India in what, The late, In the 1700s, 1800s. So yeah, Quite incredible. Yes. And they also now, The state of Odisha, Which is a southern eastern state, It's in between West Bengal and Tamil Nadu, Somewhere in that area towards, It's between Chennai and Calcutta, Somewhere over there. The state of Odisha actually has, Also has unearthed a number of places. There's Ratnagiri, Altagiri, There's a number of places there. So there are now festivals starting, Chanting Tipitaka and Guru Parmasambhava festivals being organized over there. I can also send you the link. Saru, Saru, Saru, Yes. Yeah. So there's a lot happening, But okay, How does that help with inner peace? Well, That's right. So that's a good thing. We talked a little bit about things that inspire, You know, We have these, You know, Some people get overly involved in physical things or physical locations, But I think if they can inspire faith and then draw people to the practice, Then it can be very helpful. And it's, It's, It's interesting to hold this too, When it's even prophesized that, You know, This sasana, This Buddha's dispensation will eventually come to an end, You know, It won't last forever within permanence. So holding this, Another paradox of, Okay, How do we best preserve and represent what teachings we have, And then at the same time, Knowing they will eventually come to an end, You know, And die out and, And holding these two and being okay with that and doing what we can to, To skillfully act with, With these paradoxical things here. Yeah. Yes. So on Monday, I'm traveling and I'm starting a three months journey again, Being on the road, But I'm starting with a month in Bodhgaya. And I was recently hearing, So I've met Luang Por Pasanno in December, Who he passed from the Thai, One elder of the Thai forest tradition here in Bangkok, Passing by, He had, He was on his, He had just come back from Bodhgaya. Then I met last week, Abodh, The Ab Ajanyaniko, Who is the Abodh of Abhayagiri Monastery in the Redwood Valley. And he had spent a month on the pilgrimage on the holy places in Sarnath. So we were also talking about Bodhgaya. Now I'm going again, And somehow this is to say that we came to the same conclusion, Or at least the same observation, Going there repeatedly for different, Different actual purposes, But same purpose somehow. It is that regardless of the tradition you practice, Regardless of your entry point into the Dharma, You are in the Dharma. So your practice might differ from mine. Your sitting posture might differ from, You know, From your neighbor, But somehow that place of Bodhgaya is a center where, And it was really interesting to hear an elder of the Thai forest tradition, Which is, You know, One of the ascetic branches of Theravada Buddhists in Thailand, Speak and observe Tibetan devotees chanting Om Mani Padme Hum, Some having the women with the prayer wheel and others with the mala and saying, And eventually, How is my practice better than that? And how is their practice different from mine? But it has the same, So the container might be different, But, I mean, Sorry, The content might be different, But the actual container and expression remain different, But the same. It's just a different, So Bodhgaya has become really a conversion of these, It's not that it has become, But over the centuries, Over the millennia, Where the Buddha originally sat down on that Bodhi tree, It has become a gathering of people of all walks. You can see everything there, Everything. And that's just, That's where I think it's resourcing. For me, It's always, And for everyone who goes to Bodhgaya, It's always, Oh my, It's complicated. Bodhgaya is complicated, Because it's the poorest state, And you're talking about compassion, It's the poorest state of India. So you say, Well, If there wasn't any Bodhgaya, How can you develop compassion? It's really a complicated place, But somehow everything dissolves when you're there, Because this is a magnetic power to go. So what I wanted to say is that it doesn't really matter the practice that you have. What matters is that you have a chance to hear the Dharma. You have a chance to hear the Dharma. That's already an enormous merit, Because it's not just because it's rare, But because it's a chance for you to plant a seed that can basically help you. So if somebody asks you, Josh, I'm asking you, What is salvation for you? What does salvation mean? How do you relate to salvation? Probably saving myself for myself, And I also have taints of, Okay, That's a Christian baggage that I have with salvation. I'd have to contemplate that a little bit more than getting on the spot. But I would say end of suffering, You know, That is possible, And that the path is there, And nobody's going to do it for me, You know. I have help and friends along the way, Yes, But nobody's doing it for me. And that's where the inner peace comes in. I cannot force you to have, Or at least it's not something that you can force someone to have in there. You can only say, Listen, I am encouraging you to find that inner peace, And you have a super active mind, But you can't find inner peace, Because somehow you have the true, You know, Your true nature is a beautiful nature. And this is not Buddhism who said that. There were a French philosopher 300 years ago, They were saying the same thing that, I mean, French or other, I mean, You know, Greek philosophers as well, Your nature is basically pure, And everything else that you build on is just about defilements. So in that defilements, You clear the bush, You keep what is important for you to function in a that is socially acceptable, And wholesome, And then develop that inner peace, And that inner peace will help you out, No matter what, Because once you discover how it works, You want more of it. And it leads to wisdom, And wisdom, Yes, Wisdom can overcome everything. There was someone, Someone asked us, I mean, A number of groups, And I often see people saying, Okay, But in the Theravada tradition, Or the Thai forest tradition in particular, It's all about restrictions, And restraint, And restraint. Okay, That's their practice, Right? But then you hear the elder, In this case, In my case, It was Rampo Viradhammo from Pisaranam Monastery, When I was in Ontario. He was saying, Yes, It's true, It can be perceived like there's a lot, And it's true eventually, That you cannot, You don't eat after the sun, And you know, There's the highest point of the sun, And you have to wake up early somehow, Somehow there has to be some discipline of communal life. Yes, You can see it as so much restraining, But think about the other side too, That's where the non-duality comes in. Think about the non-conventional thing. Instead of seeing it as restriction, See all the freedom and the liberation you have from everything. By not having certain things, Your life is simplified. It's freedom from, That's usually like in America, We think about a freedom to do this, Freedom to do that, But a freedom from, It's a freedom from crappiness, You know, Stuff, Freedom from stress, Freedom from all these negative things, Yeah. Exactly, And I personally, Just to make a point towards me, Because to come back to the introduction you gave about me, Because it's something I've been pondering a lot, People ask me, How can you still, You're not living in a monastery anymore, So you're officially not an Upasika anymore, You're not a long-term resident in a Thai forest tradition, Why do you keep your hair shaved? Well, Because for me, It's challenging restrictions. It's one, For me, For instance, It's been one of the greatest obstacles, As a woman, I guess. I had very long hair, So there's a lot, So, And recently there is a friend of mine who has shaved her head and took a temporary Samanera ordination and did the pilgrimage on the Mahapajapati. This was a pilgrimage of Buddhists, Of Bhikkhunis, From Bodhgaya to the birthplace of the Buddha, And we had this conversation about shaving head, You know, How for women it's completely different, It's something a man can't talk about, Even if you've had, You had short hair, It's complicated. So why do I have that? But it's not just so much that, It's that, Why don't you just have more? And I realized I still live as though I'm actually a nun, I'm actually still in a monastery, And it's not a life of restriction that I give myself, It's just, I realized, I go, And yesterday I accompanied someone doing some shopping, And I said, The freedom of not needing anything, I don't, It's not that before it was bad, Before I was in a different realm and I had a child and so I had to buy certain things, You had to afford, Now it's like I see certain things, Do I actually need, No. So I still operate with my bowl and I still operate, Although I have a full kitchen just for myself. Why do I choose this? Because it's freedom from. Yes, Yeah, It's really important and I want to change my not freedom from negativity because we're still going to experience that, But yeah, It's a reorientation to not what can I do, But what can I be free from? And I implore people to, You can hear a little bit about these things, But you have to take it on for practice for yourself and see how it lands in your heart because maybe it's not for everybody, But maybe once you give it a real honest shot, Then you can kind of feel some of the peace and freedom that comes from these practices as well. So it's all about what we can let go of, What we can orient, What can we be content with? If we can be content with very little, Then if you view people that have to have everything a certain way and they can't tolerate this and they can't tolerate that, I've got news for everybody. There's going to be a lot of times in our lives where we don't have choices. We won't be able to have the option to do what we want to do, Right? So then how are we? How are we when things don't go our way? That's a very important spiritual question. So once I've trained to be content with very little, Then none of that's a big deal, Where it can be a huge deal for a lot of people. But then it's, Oh, I've already trained and practiced this. I can be happy and content with very little. And so it's just a beautiful strategy and training in just so many situations in life, You know? And it's kind of fundamental and foundational too, You know? It's very much so. And I was going to say, You know, Before you, Earlier on in the conversation, You mentioned how to navigate dual, Non-dual world and how some people find it really challenging to navigate that. And so when I'm practicing and then I go outside, It's completely different. But when you have those foundations, Those ethical foundation, Not just understanding, Okay, It doesn't mean that I'm not buying a new cushion if I really need it because the cushion has not yet fully disintegrated. That's not what it means. Or that more is not better. And that the basic requirements are really always taken care of. If your basic requirements are always taken care of, Basically you have a very good platform to go outside and start seeing how, Just look at, Look at other human beings. Just look at them. Just not walking with this phone like this constantly in the head. And that is one of the closing remarks I want to make regarding Luan Pau Passano, The elder from the Thai forest tradition. He often speaks of one of the aspects of mindfulness. It's about maintaining spatial awareness, Being constantly aware of spatial awareness. So spatial awareness, Being aware of your surroundings. It's something that we use in yoga since I've been teaching yoga for 15 years. So spatial awareness doesn't mean copying the other person or necessarily having to talk to everyone, But having spatial awareness, Who is around, How to move in a crowd, How to move on the road. And that's mindfulness. It can save you from an accident because you're going to see the car coming in. That's also something very important. But also it's teaching you to actually maintain that kind of steadiness. You can see a danger coming in, But you can also see, You know, The beauty, The beauty of the sky. Because if you kind of walk like this, Like people do a lot these days, I'm really sorry, But you're going, The more you do that, The more, The more complicated it's going to be for you to understand non-duality. You know, It's beautiful. And it's also called situational awareness too, Right? And even just this practice with the space, Because this cup that you've seen me drink from, If you're watching this, What's around this cup? We don't, We're focused on objects too, But what about the space that's around it too? And another really interesting practice is peripheral vision. So just if we just, With our physical eyes, Just expand so where we can look at the periphery now, How it just kind of brings one into the present moment as well. And it kind of expands the mind state really temporarily. Yeah. It's it's a really important practice because we're so focused on objects. And I would just say with the phone, And this is not an excuse, But because I've heard there's these apps now that will turn your experience transparent. It will have the camera on and then whatever you're doing on your screen, You can see what's down below as you're walking. So it's, It's ridiculous what we've come to now that we'll have to have an app to do that. So we don't, So we can continue looking at our phone and still see the ground below us. So yeah, I don't, It really something, You know, I mean, We talked about this a little bit before. I mean, The pros and cons of this, But this is really important to get a handle on this now because I find I have challenges with it, You know? Yeah. I think it's a generational, It's a generational thing as well. You can listen to any talks about AI and, You know, Social, Even you can go from political to health, To Buddhism, To tech, To finances. They're all going to say the same thing. This is going, You know, That there are certain things that I cannot do for the bank on the website. I have to do them here. I cannot do it simply because there's no facial recognition on the computer. So this, It's not something that is, It's actually, It is something that we have to deal with. But generationally, We come from a time where we are accustomed to do without. And therefore, For us, We are using it as a tool, As a simple tool for connecting. But for some in the new generation, This is the non-duality. As you see, As you say, The app can make you, So you can look at the screen and to actually look at the screen. And at the same time, You can see what's happening. So that's going to be the duality. And we cannot get away. It's going to be like this. But how do you manage? I think you just keep going. You keep going the way because it's their issue. Eventually, We cannot, We cannot, We can make, We are going to come to, I was listening to some, Several actually, Podcasts in the past few days where considering the samsara is not going to get any better. Having mindfulness, Anxiety prevention and resilience building, But not the same kind of resilience as something that you have to add on is really something that you have to build. Because there are people who are extremely empathic for the damages to the environment. And they cannot get away with the fact that the environment is being damaged. And I said, Okay, Fine. But empathy is, The problem of empathy is that it stops there. It makes you very, It can drain you. If you step in and understand and having compassion, Maybe you can start doing something at your own. And that's one aspect. The second is that there are lots of people who are, Oh my gosh, This person has passed away. Oh my God, This is personal. We're all going to pass away. So don't get too much attached to this actually physicality and how everything is changing. And it's very difficult because things are going much faster than in our generation and or past generations. I mean, The pre-2000s, Whichever age you are, It's extremely difficult to now to say, To stop things. It's just accelerating. So you can only, Even more than before, You can be, You need to build your own resources. And that inner peace, I'm coming back to this inner peace because it's really going to be your asset. It's going to be your asset because very few people realize how everything can disappear from your life in just one instant. And you cannot grasp it because if it has to go, It has to go. And as you know, I know, I know, I know quite a great deal of that. But what does it teach? It teaches you that that inner peace is your strength. Yes, Exactly. So as people look at peace sometimes and they think it's weak, But no, Actually invulnerability can be a strength because it does allow this, Well, Vulnerability allows openness and connection and inner peace allows stability, Groundedness, Collectedness, And a place of where we can come from wise action and wise response instead of reactivity and destruction too. So yeah, And I will, I will challenge people though to do a slight digital detox. I mean, We were talking about Ahsoka's retreat before here and how she just limited it to bare essentials online. I did a month long Zen retreat in Korea where I turned in my devices and let me tell you that was some of just that alone was so challenging. And my whole, I didn't even realize how much reference point for reality and my sanity actually is tied now to digital devices and digital interactions. But no matter what we want to do or how we want to digital detox, I think we need to do some degree of that. But at the same time, I'm not a Luddite either where we throw it all away and just live in some kind of caveman world or something. So it's about balance and we can never have enough mindfulness. That's for sure. So I welcome people to help me interact with my devices more mindfully. I know it's way easier for me when I'm not constantly interacting with the device to be more mindful like this, Just talking and communicating. Then I can realize I'm talking to a computer screen in front of me and not actually Ahsoka. But when that mindfulness is there, It's just like I'm not even aware. But so yeah, These are important things. And we still have a one last thing. We still have a reference point, Our generation for what life was like before the internet gets today. They don't have that reference point. They don't know a world without internet. No. And there are already two generations who don't know about that because there's an earlier one that yeah, That's right. Millennials. I mean, They just the 90s, The one from the 90s. But anyway, What I wanted to remind ourselves that the Buddha spoke always about the middle way, The middle way in everything. So do not engage in extreme of everything. So it requires, You know, Mindfulness is maybe has become the McDonald of Buddhism as Melvin McLeod was talking about it. Actually, We invited the Lion's Roar to Bhutan, But he has retired. So someone else came in. And however, He spoke about this in a very good way in the sense that it was symbolizing, Expressing the fact that it's mindfulness for eating and mindfulness for walking and mindfulness for educating the kids and mindfulness for my yoga and mindfulness for my cosmetic routine or whatever it is. That's not what mindfulness is. Mindfulness is the basis of everything. But having said that, He reminded also the middle way. So the middle way is always being able to catch back where it is, Because we go, We are human, Right? So we tend to go to extreme. I can't say yesterday I didn't buy anything because I was really free from any desire of having or purchasing or whatever. I can't say that I didn't say, Oh, This is nice. It was nice. What I had in my hand is really nice. But then I look at it and I say, Well, It's nice. And I put it back, You know, So you come back to the middle way. Do I actually need this? Is it useful? And that's a mindful effort because also the Buddha taught that if Dharma is easy to you, Then it's not real Dharma. So you need to put a little bit of effort, A little bit of training here. Come on, Just not let go too much of it. And as you said, Also, I think being honest about the fact that there's going to be my tendency is to sleep late. Okay. If my tendency to sleep late in the morning, Okay, Then I shift something and I'm mindful. Mindfulness, My meditation in the evening or I do it later in the morning. It's okay. It doesn't mean that every one of us has to become a monk or a monastery and go into restraint. It just means what is the middle way that works for you? And the relationship to you. Yes. And how can you navigate yourself, Your own little middle way? And that already is going to be an enormous training for your mind. And then something else I have come back to is a Buddha. In my case, It's been the Buddha. So it's been really checking the breath and checking the breath either with the Buddha, Which works, But also stopping the breath here. The focus of the breath here, Which is something that has been done in Dzogchen as well. But you stop. So you're not concentrating too much on breathing in and breathing out and it's going. It just stops here. And then after that last breath, There is a moment where nothing happens. And that's where you start really realizing what it means to rest in awareness, Rest in the natural awareness. Wow. And you can stay there. And if you start doing a little bit pieces by pieces, Eventually one day you might end up staying one hour. And that's where something is one day is going to switch. So that's what I recommend to people. And that's really the seed of inner peace. That is something nobody can take away from you. Whether you are in a hospital, Where you are tending to rush in the airport, Whether you need to wait in the hot sun to cross the road, Whatever. It stays with you. We had a big earthquake here. And that's already almost a year ago. But that moment you realize how it's very easy to be shaken. So that inner peace, Seeds by seeds, It goes and grows. And then you find your middle way. Well, That's beautiful. I think we'll leave it there. And yeah, May everybody's mindfulness practice become optimal for their own well-being and for everyone else's. And yeah, May we all come to know optimal peace and how we relate in skillful ways to ourselves and to everyone around us and everything around us for our own well-being and that of everyone else's. So may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free. Thank you all for listening. Bye.