Spiritual Bypass Vs. Spiritual Truth

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00:30

Spiritual Bypass Vs. Spiritual Truth

by Yaron Etzion

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talks

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Meditation

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Join us for a powerful conversation between Yaron and Dr Arielle Warner (PhD), an expert on the connection between trauma and spirituality. Together, they will explore the phenomenon of spiritual bypassing — what it is, how and why it happens, and most importantly, how to walk a path of genuine growth without falling into this common trap. Don’t miss this opportunity to deepen your understanding and evolve beyond the boundaries we unknowingly place on ourselves. Please note: This audio is ripped from a video.

Spirituality Trauma Personal Growth Psychology Self Compassion Mindfulness Ego Relationships Trauma Healing Transpersonal Psychology Present Moment Awareness Relationship Dynamics

Meet your Teacher

Edmonton, AB, Canada

Meet your Teacher

Edmonton, AB, Canada

Transcript

So, Hello dear people, Welcome to this unique opportunity we give ourselves to stop the rush and hold hands and walk the path together, Not just as individuals but also as a united consciousness that is growing and evolving by asking and answering itself, Harnessing that tension that hides between the question and the answer. So this is your opportunity to shine by contributing your questions, Your wonders, Your doubts, Your insights, Whatever you feel can help you and us to grow on the path. Together we have a very special meeting today. We're going to discuss the topic of spiritual bypass versus spiritual truth. And to do that, We have a very special guest, Dr. Ariel Werner. Ariel is an old friend, A colleague on the path. She is one of the first Israeli Ardor Living teachers. And I think best if she can introduce herself. Ariel, Would you like to say a few words? Yes. Hi, Thank you so much for this introduction, Yaron, But you're the first Israeli Ardor Living teacher and you're the one who initiated me to start teaching in Israel, My first Ardor Living course I did with you. Correct. I was teaching and you were backing me up. In that way, You gave me the. . . Ariel disappeared. Oh, Now you can hear me? Yeah, Now we can hear you. Oh, OK. So I actually, To introduce myself in this context, I'll say that I have a PhD in transpersonal psychology and basically I studied the impact of the Ardor Living course with women with breast cancer. And I did a study on the impact both qualitatively and both quantitatively. So I studied how it impacted their well-being, Quality of life, Spiritual well-being, State of mind, Positive and stress. And also I did interviews, Qualitative interviews. Something about your line is not stable. Excuse me? Something about your line is not stable. Really? I'm not at home and I'm not using my computer, But this is a friend's computer, Which usually works. OK, Let's give it another try. Can you hear me now? Yes. OK, So I was saying that I did my PhD on the impact of the Ardor Living course for women with breast cancer and as part of my PhD program in transpersonal psychology. And I decided to do this because of my own experience with the Ardor Living course, How it really transformed my life and how I had anxiety and worries and how it connected me with my true self and allowed me to really have connection with myself. That part of me that is part of us that doesn't change. Basically, It allowed for, It provided a huge transformation. So that's why I decided to do my PhD on the impact of this course for women with breast cancer and the results show positive impact on all the measures and great transformation. However, It's interesting because as much as it really brought so much good and so much relief in my life, There are some issues that it did not address. Because of this strong connection with the spirit and with the self and with the truth, It was some kind of a bypass actually to wounds that had to do with childhood, Developmental trauma, And so on and so forth. I didn't know that for years, But it took years for me to use the connection with my true self in order to do the healing of the trauma. And therefore, This whole idea of spirituality and psychology is very interesting for me. And you've been working with patients healing trauma for the past years? I don't call them patients, I call them clients. Clients, Okay, Sorry. Who have been dealing, Who are dealing with different crises in their life and the past few years have been adding the lens of developmental trauma to the work. So basically, The connection between trauma and spirituality is my expertise. Excellent. That's why I have sensitivity to that. Yeah, Let's give the people some context on why are we talking about that today. So like a week ago, Every once in a while, I post a short clip on Facebook and YouTube about different subjects. The last one I posted was about intergenerational trauma. And there was a question, Is there a thing? Is it a thing? And my answer was definitely. Intergenerational trauma is definitely a thing. Firstly, And mostly because we are interconnected with each other and with the universe and everything that happens around us influences us and we are influence it. So of course, It's a thing. And the more intimate the relationship is, The more tight the influence is. But I said it's important to remember when we deal with trauma that the bottom line of all the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves and about what happened to us is that these are just stories. And we'll have eventually receive an invitation to let go of those stories if we want to really ascend on the spiritual path. And our identification with that story will drop. It's just a matter of how mature we are on our path. Roughly, This is what I said in that clip. And I received the feedbacks from a few people. Some liked it. Some were triggered by it. And Ariel also contacted me and told me that she would urge me to reconsider to edit that because this might be an invitation for people for spiritual bypass. So I invited Ariel to have this meeting today to discuss that. And the first thing I would like to ask Ariel is what is a spiritual bypass? What is it? What are we talking about? Okay. The spiritual bypass is actually a term coined by John Wellwood, Who I think passed away a year ago, In May, I think, Last year. And he's a psychotherapist. He wrote many books, Among which books that have to do with enlightenment, The spiritual awakening, And walking on the path, And developmental, Like, Awakening and the development. How do you spell his last name? Wellwood. Wellwood. W-E-L-L-O-W, Wellwood. Okay. W-L-W-O-O-D. John Wellwood. And basically what he meant by that, Since then, Since the term that he coined, I think, I don't remember exactly when, But many years ago, He actually wrote a really very interesting article about it. Since then, Especially lately, There's so much about this topic. More books, More articles, More interest about it. And the idea is that spiritual bypass is connecting with spirit at the cost of addressing the psychological wounds that have behavioral and personality manifestations. So practically speaking, If we can connect with that spiritual consciousness, That is one, And that state of awakened state of spiritual, And we do it by bypassing the manifestations of the trauma, Then eventually there's a price that is paid by that. Especially in relationships, Because we know that trauma actually is not what happened to us. Trauma is what happens inside of us as a result of what happened to us. And this is the famous sentence that Dr. Gabor Mate speaks very clearly about. Basically, When we feel helpless and we feel alone, Then a trauma response happens in the body, And then our survival mechanisms start acting out. So spirituality can be a resource for us to ground ourself in the truth of being alone and helpless. But if we don't do it as a resource, But we do it as a bypass, And we connect with that essence of who we really are beyond the stories, And we do it at the cost of not addressing the stories, Then it's a bypass. And the reason I commented on your video was especially around the word, Just the story, Because you had addressed in that video the importance of connecting with the present moment. And it's the present moment, The essence of just being in the present moment without any story about the present moment, Or the past, Or the future, Or anything. Just the essence of presence. And I completely agree with you. And I agree with you anyway. But something about the word, Just a story, Not only was it, It wasn't about encouraging bypass. It was about dismissing the impact of trauma. And I think for people who are suffering from the impact of that, We all are to some degree. It could be helpful to hear that it's just a story, But it could actually do very, Very very wounding to hear that. So because I so agree with you, Yaron, And because I also feel that being in the present moment is such, And that's the healing. I felt sad that you used that word, Just a story. And you also talked about in the present moment, We're here Christmas Eve with internet, But that too is a story about the moment. Even that is an illusion. We know the truth, Like the Yoga Vasistha knowledge, And we know the truth. Even this sitting here in front of this video, This screen, It's just a story. And for us to go deep beyond, It's good to let go of the story. But at the same time, Intergenerational trauma and developmental trauma has its impacts. Okay. And how can we connect with truth and with essence in order to acknowledge the trauma and that provide regulation and provide healing? Right. Okay. I want to use this opportunity to invite our listeners to listen to this discussion in a way that is not judgmental. I mean, Don't feel that you need to choose between two opposing ideas or set of ideas. Okay. See if you can expand consciousness enough to allow everything that is being said today in, And then see what comes into fruition. But it's not that we are now debating between two opposing sets of mind. Okay. This is important to say. Another thing. Going back to the question, What is a spiritual bypass? In my experience, Spiritual bypass is basically the ego taking ownership over some spiritual truth that we've learned on our path for its own benefit. For example, I hear a sentence called, Like something like, This world is Maya, Is an illusion. It's not real. Right. So what the ego says, Okay, If this world is not real, Then I don't need to deal with it. Right. What's the point to give that energy if it's not real? I can just bypass the struggle of meetings, Life challenges, And, You know, Retreat and whatever, Smoke drugs and not be truly engaged. Because what's the point? Anyway, It's not real. Why bother? Right. This is a possible spiritual bypass that we can meet on the path. Or another example. We hear this invitation that our story is just an illusion. You are not the story. Okay. This is definitely an important lesson that we learn sooner or later on the path. Your identification with the story is the cause of your misery. So eventually growing beyond that illusion of creating an identity around the story is inevitable. So people hear that and might think, Okay, So if I am not the story, Then why deal with it? Why bother about past events? Why try to heal relationships that are broken? Why, You know, Give energy to old traumas? You know, I can just tell myself this is not the truth. This is just an illusion. And not deal with it. And sometimes dealing with it is essential. And not dealing with it leaves an internal wound that will keep on festering unless it's dealt with. You see what I'm saying? So spiritual bypass is some kind of a way for us to avoid the challenges of life by using spiritual knowledge to our own benefit. A classic example that I remember is if you remember a few decades ago, There was a big hype around a book called The Secret. Do you remember that book? That book basically was using a spiritual truth that was saying that reality is created by your own consciousness and not the other way around. Okay, You create reality. You attract into manifestation basically what represents your internal truth. So you are the creator of your own reality. This is a spiritual truth. Is it true? 100%. Can you use it for your own egoistic agenda? No. So all that hype around if I think about $1 million, I will generate $1 million, You know, Because I create my reality. All that was terrible mistakes. Then millions of people around the world fell into that trap, Believing that it's only about me thinking positively about my future and I will create a better future for myself. That's a bypass as far as I can see. So spiritual bypass, In a nutshell, Would be using spiritual truth to my own egoistic agenda. Or to avoid confronting with life's challenges, Which is inevitable. What do you think? By the way, Our audience, Either on Zoom or on Insight Timer, You are most welcome to interfere with your questions. That's why you're here. You're not passive. Please join and ask. I completely agree with what you're saying. It's you kind of explained the mechanism of it because the ego, Its survival mechanism is using the spiritual truth in its service as a survival mechanism. So that's spiritual bypass. But you know, Sometimes it's like in relationship. For example, I can speak about my story. I did the Art of Living course in 2003 and I experienced a very deep transformation and healing. And I was like, All my anxiety basically vanished. And easily, I could really connect with my true self. And it was like, It was access to consciousness on a deep level. Manifestations in my life. However, That part of me that was wounded in childhood that prevented me from being in relationship, In intimate relationship, Was not addressed. For me, The spiritual, The breathing techniques and the knowledge and the path allowed me to really relax and know myself. But that part, That wounded self, Was still there. And it manifested in relationship, Preventing me from being intimate. And it was really tricky because if you saw me and you saw me then, I was so, I was always very alive and amazing and beautiful and smart and sexy and blah, Blah, Blah. No one would notice that on me. But I was not in a relationship. I was not married. I now am married. Essentially, Three months ago, Got married. But I don't have children. My healing happened after I was able to have children. I wasn't able to have children anymore. That's okay. I'm okay with that. 100% okay with that. However, I know that had I done that healing of the trauma earlier in my life, I probably would have a different path. And it's okay. I'm okay with what is and everything is fine and it's perfect the way it is. However, It's really important for people to be aware of that, How spirituality can sometimes prevent you from meeting yourself and all the parts of yourself, Including the hinderers and including the fears. Because let's chant Om Namah Shivaya, You know, And then the fear of abandonment and the fear of whatever goes away. Because Om Namah Shivaya, If I chant Om Namah Shivaya for three minutes, I'll be in bliss. Meanwhile, That part of me that is scared to lose, That little girl that lost her father when she was 12, That little girl that is scared to be engaged again out of fear of wound doesn't get any. So somehow the Om Namah Shivaya has to meet that little girl in the real-time, Real-life situation. So then it's not bypassed. And that happens, For me, That happened thanks to an illness that I had in my body that I went deep and was able to meet the blockages in my body through the illness and I healed the illness. And then something very deep happened to me in terms of the healing. And then I was able to meet my husband and have a healthy relationship. So it's really important to not bypass the pain and the wound. And there's always that potential. And it's really wise to have that awareness. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. There is definitely, You've mentioned an important issue that, You know, Many people on the spiritual path get caught in that trap. I'm sorry, I'll try to speak louder. There are many people on the spiritual path that do get caught in that trap. We call it feel-good spirituality, Right? Many people somehow use spirituality as a sort of a plaster, You know, Not to deal with the pain, But to cover it and just, You know, Feel good about it. You see them, There are so many. In every ashram, You'll find a group of people who seem so blissful, Just because they just use this opportunity for the spirituality can provide for sure. And that is a temporary elimination of the pain that life suggests from time to time. Definitely. And, You know, Here on the white path, The invitation is to start with the body, Experience the pain if it's there, Not avoid it, Not try to cover it with some kind of an artificial masquerade. Ariel is calling it Om Namah Shivaya. I don't know if you're familiar with the term, But it's just chanting that brings a lot of peace while you are practicing. And, You know, It's like taking Tylenol, You know, When you have a headache, Instead of really dealing with the pain and realizing the cause of that pain, You just take a pill and hope the pain will go away. So we need to be careful that we don't use spirituality in that way. Yeah, Spiritually can provide temporary relief of that pain, But that's not what spirituality is for. So if we if we need some temporary relief, Fine, But it's not a substitute to doing the work, Getting your feet dirty. You know, The mud is there and to cross to the other side, You have to step on it, Step in the mud, Get dirty. Life is not temporary. Possible. Without getting dirty. It's it's it's not a thing. Let me see how many there are many questions here. Let me see that I'm covering everyone. V. S. Is saying, Loving the discussion, Very relevant and important topic. And I think you both are actually not in conflict at all. Good. Is validation of the story sufficient to avoid bypassing? Good question. Ariel, Maybe you would like to refer. Is validation of the story sufficient to avoid bypassing? Not quite. Validation, Like acknowledgment, First of all, I want to differentiate between the story and the pain and trauma. Like the story is a story. But the invitation is to go deep and see what's going on in the body and what are the feelings and emotions and what's going on in the body associated with the story and to acknowledge that. Acknowledge is like to give some acknowledgment, To give that heart a feeling that an experience of it's not alone. And perhaps use spirituality as a way to resource in order to be with that story so that it's not alone. That story is not it's not so much a story is the experience associated with the story. So it's a step acknowledging the story. But then again, I totally agree with you, Yaron, That identifying too much with the story can can take us into the victim consciousness and actually enhance. And the other side, So it's not enough to just be in the story, It's like you say, To go into the body and see what's going on inside and how does it manifest like in your life and acknowledge it. Validate is not so much the word I would choose, Although validation is important, But it's more like acknowledging. Acknowledging without identifying, That's beautiful. You know, When we relate to our story, We don't dismiss it, Just saying, You know, It's not real, It's not true. I don't want to put any attention on it. That's bypassing because your story is definitely there behind you all the way until the last step that you made. And it's definitely influencing the way you experience yourself today in life. So just dismissing it as unreal without dealing with the entanglements that it created for you along your journey, That's bypassing. So acknowledging that the fact that all those things did happen to you and are a part of you right now is definitely important. As you keep reminding yourself not to generate an identity around that. What does it mean to generate an identity? The story is the answer to the question, Who am I? That's who I am. All those things that happened to me, That's not true. OK, Because when you are identified with your story in that way, It's almost inevitable that you experience yourself as a victim of circumstances. It's almost inevitable. You know, We all are scratched by life. It's inevitable. Life can be very painful, Very harsh, Cruel. And we are all scarred by life in one way or another. The difference is some of us are completely identified with these scars and generate an identity and answer to the question, OK, This is who I am. All the things that happened to me. And as long as you are attached to the story in that sense, You cannot be free. You are in almost. With no exception, Some kind of a victim. Of that story. So again, It's a fine line between. Ignoring the story and dismissing it. Or to be completely attached to it and create an identity around it. See if you can find the middle way between being with that story, Acknowledging whatever happened. If you can be wide enough, Appreciate and. And be grateful for all those opportunities you had to learn about life and about yourself through those circumstances that brought you all the way here now. And at the same time, Release yourself from the attachment to that story. The story also, It doesn't always work from where you are to the past, It also work from where you are to the future. When you believe that the story is. Broken. And only after it is fixed, You can be free. Then again, You put yourself in a trap, Self-made trap. I cannot be free, I cannot be fulfilled, I cannot be truly happy, I cannot be enlightened, Whatever you hold on in your head is. Your fruition. I cannot do that because my story. Cannot allow that, You know. I'm damaged goods. I'm not worthy. How do I know that? Because my story is teaching me that. I'm not worthy. This is a pandemic. More than for women than for men. I'm not worthy of bliss. I'm not worthy of grace. How do I know that? I look back at my story and I learn that from my story. So identifying with that story is not just how it reflects on your past, But also on your future. So we discussed what is spiritual bypass and how do we use it. And now the question comes, How do we avoid creating spiritual bypasses on our path? How do we live an authentic life without avoiding? Ariel, Would you like to further this question? Yes, I think we do that. I think the way to do that is to access resources among which spirituality in order to be with the pain. So we commit to like compassion. Compassion is to be with the pain. We commit to allow ourselves to not to put a plaster. When something comes up in our life, Especially in relationship, When we're triggered, Or even now with what's going on collectively in the world, And here specifically, The Middle East. So when we have pain, Pain or sadness or fear or whatever it is, How do we, We commit to stay present. We take responsibility, The ability to respond and not just react. And in order to respond, Be responsible, We are willing to be with the pain. We don't look for something to take the pain away. On the other hand, We don't chew on the story, Like you say, In order to enhance the pain. But how to stay present. We learn how to stay present. This is why the present moment is the doorway. The skill of the present. So to make it practical, Like if something, All of a sudden I feel a wave of some anxiety or I feel a wave of sadness. I'm curious about it and I learn and I regulate. I breathe and I resource in order to stay with what is. Without the story, Just with the sensations of the body, With the breath. Like for example, When I saw your post, So I got a little bit triggered. And I then respond, I was response able, I think, Because I wrote you, Not feel it. I shared with you and I continued feeling inside of me what was going on. Yeah, So beautifully said, You know, Compassion is mostly referred to as me being compassionate for your pain, Right? I'm compassionate about your pain. But you're saying now, No, I'm compassionate about my pain. It's so beautiful, No? How to reverse that energy flow and fill yourself with compassion about your own pain, About your own wounds. It's so beautiful. Be with the pain. So I think this really is the main invitation here. When we refer to spiritual bypassing versus spiritual truth, The spiritual truth is not meant to give you a more sophisticated tool to prevent experiencing pain. It's not the point at all. If it's painful, The invitation would be, Be with it. Be with the pain. And if it feels like it's too much and you can't hold it, Don't run away. That's the definition of trauma. What is trauma? An event that you somehow convince yourself that it's too much. I can't take it. I can't hold it. It's overwhelming. And so I shut down. That's trauma. So if it's painful, Yeah, Sometimes life is very painful. Sometimes the emotion seems to be, Whoa, Too much. Just remind yourself, It's never too much. But Yaron, This is where I defer with, Again, It's mostly in terminology. It's not that you convince yourself that it's too much. The nervous system automatically, Autonomically, It's an autonomic nervous system response. It shuts down or it runs away or it fights back because they're anyone to regulate the nervous system and teach it how to be with the pain. So I think this is where I got triggered and I'm getting a little triggered now as well. When I hear you say you convince yourself, It sounds like if it's a decision, This is where spiritual practice can help you become able to respond. But in trauma, When the nervous system is so automatically triggered, It's impossible. It's not about a decision at all. And this is where it's really important, Especially in today's world, Where so many people are in trauma. You can't go to somebody who has flashbacks at night and is unable to sleep. Kid is driving him absolutely nuts that he wants to jump out the window. You can't tell somebody like that, Well, You're convincing yourself that it's too much. This is super triggering and not useful. So this is where I think spirituality and spiritual practice can help regulate the autonomic nervous system and then get out of the trauma response versus use spirituality as a way to say, Well, The trauma, It's get out of it, Snap out of it type of thing. And it's really annoying to hear that message of come on, Snap out of it. What I'm pointing at is that trauma is not a consequence of an event. Event cannot be traumatic. Trauma is caused by us unable, For some reason, To experience that event, Usually because we feel it's too much. It's like, I can't take it. You know, Whether we think about it or that's the way our body automatically reacts to it, You know, But it feels like, Oh, No, No, No, No, This is not right. This is way beyond my means. I either fight or flight or whatever, But I can't deal with that. I need to avoid that. This is trauma. Okay, So one thing important to say about trauma is it's nothing to do with the event itself. Of course, The more extreme the event is, The more probable that I will somehow, I'm trying to avoid the word convince myself, But I somehow react in a way that would be impossible for me to experience it. So looking back, Yeah, You know, Sometimes terrible things happen to us when we were children or, You know, Young adults or whatever. And yeah, We didn't have the tools to deal with it any better, You know. And of course, Survival mode, Our body tried to protect our soul by contracting and creating some kind of a shield and hoping that this terrible wave will pass. But I'm not talking to that child who is three or five or seven or 12 years old now. I'm talking to you guys today. Looking back to past traumas and looking forward to difficult events that will definitely hit your path in the future. How do I deal with these extreme events? And the invitation you hear today is when something extreme is happening, Which is extremely difficult to experience, It's good that we remind ourselves of that truth. If it happened, It happened because we can experience it fully in the present moment. And if you are wide enough with a whole heart and a willing soul, This is how you make sure that new trauma is not created as you go through life. When it happens, Take a deep breath, Remind yourself you can deal with it. It's not too much. As overwhelming as it might seem to be. If it was too much, You wouldn't be invited to experience it. That's an important thing to remember. We're talking about burning karma. This is how you burn karma. This story will not have to repeat itself again and again on your path. Why? Because you finally were available to experience it in the present moment when it happened. Think about it. When there is a trauma that affects your behavior today, An old event that happened once, And now your system reacts in a non-proportionate way. So you go to a therapist and you start working on that trauma and how it affects you and how to heal that. What do you do, Basically? It doesn't matter which method this therapist is using. But eventually, All of the therapists will invite you to go back to that traumatic event and re-experience it. This time in a more safe and secure way. No? You don't agree? No, Not at all. Okay. It depends in what way, But it really depends. Again, It's not the event because you're talking about trauma as an event. Trauma is not an event. Trauma is what happens inside of you. It can be something really small that happened over time. For example, Unattuned parents, Unavailable parents that were not with you. Something really, Really small that many people say, What? Worst thing happened to other people. It's not a big deal what happened to me. Of course, It's not a big deal. But something inside happened that your whole mechanism started reacting. Yeah. Going back to the event. And it's really not necessary to go back to the event. It's more necessary to go back to the experience associated with the event. Because this experience is living right now, In the here and now, With whatever triggered you. That person gave you a message. It's not about the person. It's about it gave you a message associated with an older event in you. Older experience in you associated with the event. Anyway, It's about how to be present in the moment with that loving, Passionate presence in order to help regulate. That's trauma healing. Fantastic. So again, The invitation is to make sure that you don't use spiritual knowledge in order to avoid that confrontation. Confrontation with those past events. Confrontation with the pain that it causes and the wounds that you feel that are still there, Waiting to be healed. And maybe it's not necessarily the right word, Confrontation, Because confrontation sounds like some kind of a struggle. It's more like how to use, How to not use spirituality as a way to avoid making, Acknowledging, Being present. It's not even the event so much. It's about the experience inside. So, You know, I have an experience with somebody we both know years ago. We were involved in some leadership in some organization together and we were triggering each other because that's how it is in relationship, Right? Leaderships of organization, People trigger each other, Blah, Blah, Blah. And I was very unregulated then. And I was like, Oh, Upset and very, Oh. And like her answer to me was, Oh, Emotions are not important. It's just emotions. Go beyond emotions. Which it's not that she's completely wrong, By the way, But it's her way of avoiding what's going on between us in the relationship and we're triggering each other. I annoyed her just as much as she annoyed me, But she was like, Oh, I'm not annoyed. It's just emotion. They go with this. And I was like, Bernie, I'm so annoyed with her. So that's what I mean. Why was I annoyed? Well, Because of her, I was annoyed because something in the relationship triggered something in me. So I was one extreme of being all like this, And she was like, All quiet. You know, Those are not authentic, Really. So that's just an example of avoiding. Yeah, Beautiful. So how do you know that you are resolved? It's not because you develop some kind of sophisticated mechanism to avoid the confrontation, To avoid the pain, But that you are recognizing your ability to experience it when it happens without identifying with it. Yes? Yes, Beautifully. Beautifully. Beautifully put. Fantastic. OK, One hour is over. So let's give five minutes to people to ask any additional question before we wrap this up. Mel is saying, Agree with identifying the triggers if they are still present. Good, Yeah. Not avoiding, Identifying, Recognizing, Acknowledging without identifying. I think some people who experience trauma respond differently to different approaches. A direct versus a software approach can both work. Yes. Any question on Zoom or inside timer? Any final words, Ariel? It's a pleasure. VS is asking, Do I do this often, Yaron? We meet twice a week, Every Thursday at 7. 30 p. M. Mountain time and every Saturday at 12 p. M. Mountain time. This is the first time we had a guest like Ariel joining us, Having her perspective, Which is beautiful. I hope we can do it again. I think it's really helpful and fruitful for everyone. I would like to thank Ariel for joining us at Rublis, And thank you all, Guys, For being here and asking your questions. And we're going to meet again this coming Thursday, Follow up for additional updates. Thank you very much. Good night, Good morning, Wherever you are. Thank you.