I'm with Jennifer Tantia.
Who is writing a book.
About somatics beyond trauma.
So how?
Paying attention to what happens in the body in more everyday situations,
Not just in trauma.
So hi,
Jennifer.
Hi Serge,
Nice to be here.
So you very generously agreed to share a situation in your own life that actually allows us to talk about it with people in a way that they can relate to it that's not abstract.
Yeah.
Yeah,
This is a it was such a fun revelation.
That I think we discovered together while I was telling you about this book that I'm writing about somatics beyond trauma.
And as it happened,
We unpacked or unwrapped this experience about me writing the book that was an example of exactly what we're talking about.
I don't even know if that makes it so like kind of folded in on itself.
Yeah.
So,
Yeah,
So.
So it started with that sense of you recalling one episode,
Which is not infrequent,
But significant,
That happens often,
About a moment where you have that task avoidance,
That writer's block.
And so do you want to kind of recall a little bit of that situation?
Yeah,
So I was telling you about a moment where I would be sitting on the couch and staring at my laptop and not able to approach my laptop and actually write and noticing that moment and it would happen often and what I would typically do is I would sit on the couch I'd stare at the computer and then I would go the other direction and go clean the apartment or cook something or do anything else but write.
And it sounds like this is something that I've heard,
You know,
If you you can get a writer to do absolutely anything as long as it's not writing.
And it's this,
You know,
I'm very,
Very good at avoiding and hiding.
I've called it hiding from my book.
I would hide from it.
Yes,
Yes.
And interesting to add for context is it's not like it's the first time you're writing a book.
You've written several books.
It's a topic.
That you're really interested in,
And when you're actually writing,
You enjoy it.
So the task avoidance is really to be seen in that context.
Yeah,
And that's the confusion about it.
It's once I'm writing,
I'm really.
.
.
Just enjoying it and doing it.
And I think that's also something that I see a lot of people have an experience of,
The fear of.
Is that distance between where they are and where the joy is.
And there's a there's this fear in between that,
You know,
Some anxiety or whatever you want to call it,
This projecting into the future,
The the fear,
The what ifs,
You know,
All of those stories that we tell ourselves that keep us from actually living or actually enjoying things.
Yeah.
And so what's interesting is when we were talking about it,
So it was not a,
It was not a therapy context.
You were not my client.
I'm not your therapist.
We were talking about it as colleagues and friends.
And certainly what we were not doing is engaging in analyzing.
We were not going into the stories,
Recounting the various stories you can tell yourself,
But we were just,
You know,
What was happening is we were just staying with that experience.
Minutes.
Yeah,
Yeah,
It was wonderful.
So what I remember is telling you kind of,
I remember it being very clear as an image in my mind,
And I told you that I would sit on the couch.
And stare at my laptop.
And as I was describing it to you,
As I am right now,
I realized my eyes were very tight.
And then.
I think you noticed something.
And,
And asked me about how what my body was doing or how I was feeling.
And I,
You know,
And I sat with it and I realized that my body felt frozen.
And that hyper vigilance,
Looking at the perceived threat.
And it was a real revelation.
Just even right now,
As you're replaying it,
There is kind of a sense of that fixity,
That rigidity,
That narrow focus there,
And the frozen quality,
Like the deer in the headlight.
There's a danger there,
And you simply cannot make a move.
Yeah,
Yeah.
And in the past,
Now that we're talking about it,
I would use my slight response,
I guess,
When I would think about what else I could be doing,
That would be a relief,
Not necessarily getting the task done or enjoying,
But going and cleaning somewhere else.
In the kitchen,
In the bedroom.
Or doing something,
You know,
Cooking,
Would go the opposite direction of the threat.
It was both an avoidance and it was a flight response to run.
But I didn't even know,
I really wasn't even aware of this until we started talking about it.
Yes.
Yes.
And so,
And so there's something about the talking,
Which we were not analyzing,
We were not either trying to say,
Oh,
This is,
You know,
You should be able to do it,
You've done it,
You know,
It was not a pep talk,
It was not,
But something in the quality of the talking you commented on afterwards with that sense of giving you the curiosity to stay with the experience itself.
Yeah.
And sensing my body,
Which is what I do all the time,
But sensing,
Remembering,
Having the memory.
Even at the gesture tour and the direction.
This is my laptop right now,
But it was over there because I was sitting,
You know,
So I'm having a memory of the color of the couch.
And as I'm telling you and as I'm sensing into my body while I'm telling you the story.
Is when I realized I was frozen.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Yeah.
Self-state,
The different nervous system state in which all of this is not present.
Right.
Therapists are human,
Too.
Exactly.
And,
You know,
We can talk about the freeze response.
We can talk to our clients about we can describe it.
We can notice it.
But even when we're in it.
It by default,
When you are frozen,
You don't really have much cognition online.
Exactly.
And so your example is you're writing the book on it,
You know it.
And when you're in it,
You just simply can see it.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Which was really,
That's what I think was so amazing.
It's like,
Oh,
This communication and connection with another person.
Oh,
That actually works.
Look at that.
Yes,
Yes,
Yes.
And it's interesting,
Peter Levine,
Who developed somatic experiencing for trauma,
Has a great description of how he was once in a situation where something happened to him that was beyond his capacity to handle.
And he simply was totally frozen and needed another person to actually be there.
That's something you cannot do by yourself when you're in that place.
Yeah,
No,
That the the analogy I would have is the thinking out of the box,
If you're in the box of that shock,
You cannot go beyond the box unless you have some kind of connection outside the box.
Yeah.
And for you,
That connection was my curiosity.
About your experience.
Yeah.
Yeah,
So I'm trying to think of.
When I told you so that I was able to sense it and then I was able to tell you.
With words,
I said,
Oh,
I was frozen.
And then I.
.
.
In that realization,
I was going from a bottom back up to the top.
And I said,
I was,
I'm afraid of my laptop.
The fear was there.
The reality was the fear was there with my laptop.
Not with a tiger.
And when I said out loud,
I'm afraid of my laptop.
The absurdity of that was fun.
And I started to laugh.
And you started to laugh.
And that laughter moved my body.
And it started to shake or melt that freeze response.
And then I went back down again into my body and I was present again.
Yeah.
So you're describing right now how the laughter,
That something's happening.
And so in that sense,
It breaks,
You know,
In a way the walls of the box.
And you're connecting that danger experience with something else that say is none.
I think when you also talk about the absurdity,
The absurdity exists only because you're aware to see both experience to be in both.
You're into that fear,
And you're into this is only a computer.
If we were talking about it,
You know,
In a way saying,
Okay,
Don't be silly,
This is fine.
You're,
You know,
You're,
You're here.
You know that a computer is a computer.
Right.
So there's something about both happening at the same time.
Yeah,
And being my own witness to that.
Yeah,
I like how you said that being aware of both at the same time.
I want to add that what I'm thinking right now in working with clients,
They'll say,
Well,
And we say,
We say together,
I know it's not a threat.
But in here,
It's different.
And by keeping them separate,
You just go from one to the other.
When you can say,
And yes,
And it's both happening together.
Yeah.
And so I like I like your hand movement.
I like your hand movement.
And so just,
You know,
That sense of It's in my head and you have the hand here.
It's not in my body and you have the hand here.
And then you move the two hands.
Yeah.
And so the two experiences are present.
And so,
Again,
Why I'm mentioning this,
Because as human beings,
Our tendency is to say,
Okay,
You know,
Let me see rationally what the danger is.
And okay,
So no,
How could I be afraid of it?
It's just a computer.
When we do that,
We only go to the rational brain,
The cognitive brain,
And we're not the other part of the experience.
The intensity of the fear is not present.
And so that's how we can understand something perfectly and still not be able to do anything with it.
Because the part that doesn't know is that more emotional brain,
That activated brain,
That fight-flight mode,
That other self state,
And that does not have the information.
Yeah.
And when we stay in our head,
We're discounting that.
Feeling as illogical or irrational,
Instead of bringing it together.
Yeah.
And honoring that fear.
Yeah.
And without making it bigger,
But also without trying to push it away or get rid of it,
To actually hold it then lets it change.
Yes.
And so that kind of situation is what we call a corrective experience.
Or for those of us who are more into neuroscience,
Maybe called memory consolidation,
But essentially it's something that happens where you have enough of the intensity of the experience in a safe enough place that it's possible to bring the two together.
And then,
As you described,
The absurdity of the two situations put together.
You know,
Shatters some of the constructs we had,
And it's a new experience that's created.
Yes.
Oh,
I like that.
It's a new experience.
It's not getting rid of or grasping onto.
It's really just it's something new is created.
Yeah.
It still makes me laugh.
Yeah,
Yeah,
Yeah.
And it's what's interesting is it fits into what you're writing about,
Because we're not talking about trauma.
You know,
We're talking,
I mean,
You know,
We can talk about,
Say,
Me,
It's some experiences that you haven't digested in the past that are reactivated and things like that.
But this really qualifies as one of the incidents of everyday life.
Yes,
Yeah.
And,
And so,
In a sense,
By sharing this story,
You're inviting all of us to actually notice in everyday life of moments when we have that flight that avoidance that,
You know,
That frozen quality,
And to actually stay with the experience in a safe and curious way.
And maybe with somebody's help when it's when we're too much inside the box.
So one piece of that,
What I'm remembering now is clients often when they do stay in their head and try to get rid of and separate,
They're also being critical of that part of themselves.
So really,
As you're saying,
This corrective experience of attending to and tolerating the difficult feeling that comes up.
And in relationship with another person who is there in support.
Allows it to change.
Another piece that I've noticed after that.
After that experience with you,
That was just so much what we're talking about today is so much fun,
Was the next time I was on the couch and looked at my laptop,
I was able to giggle a little bit.
And come over to the laptop and write.
So there was also a greater sense of losing that grasping onto my own fear.
And it kind of,
I felt like.
Somatically,
I felt like I was bigger than the fear that I was holding on to before,
That I became bigger and there was a sense of resilience.
That I now bring to my life.
So it really is bigger than just getting rid of trauma or getting something out of your body,
But to actually shift into a greater sense of aliveness in yourself.
Of the fight flight mode.
And we kind of disappear into all of it.
All of me is this fear.
And,
And and that experience is there's more to me than this fear.
And so yeah,
There's more of a whole person.
Yes.
And in movement analysis,
We tend to narrow and retreat when we're afraid.
And when we feel safe and engaged,
We expand and come forward.
So there's this contraction and expansion that becomes more available.
Yeah.
In that new sense of,
Oh,
OK.
I feel a little nervous right now.
Part of what we're doing is normalizing this and to say,
As you're a human being,
It's unavoidable that at times you're going to go into that retreat and contraction.
And so,
And as you pointed out,
Part of the obstacle is a self-criticism.
And so when you have a felt sense of something there,
Instead of experiencing it as a natural function of what it's like to be human and have a nervous system,
The self-criticism kicks in,
And then it actually makes it narrower and makes it more unbearable.
And what we're talking about is cultivating the capacity to be in the experience.
And so from there,
Something new can emerge.
Tolerating the difficult feeling without.
Trying to push it away or be consumed by it.
And that allows it to shift.
Yeah.
From this contraction and retreat to,
Oh,
I'm feeling contracted and narrowed right now.
Oh,
What's going on?
Let me be curious about that.
Huh,
Okay,
Rather than fixing it,
I don't wanna do the opposite to force it,
But to really just slow down.
What's happening right now?
What do I need?
I don't know what I need.
Okay,
Hang out there.
Yeah.
So I really appreciate that you're demonstrating this,
Because,
You know,
We tend to go into the fixing.
And and so the and there is some of the self criticism and shame in the fixing,
Because it's not okay to be in that place.
And what you're describing the staying with it does not mean falling into the the vicious cycle of you know fear increasing fear because there is a calm acceptance of the fear as something from which we have something to learn There's something really valuable in there.
And a lot of it is not verbal.
So I remember when we were talking about it the first time,
You had a phrase about curiosity,
Self-criticism,
Something like this.
I'm just wondering if you remember it,
Because I think it might be a good place,
A good handle for what we're talking about.
Sure,
Yeah.
I think it's curiosity is the gateway.
From criticism to compassion.
Yeah,
Yeah,
So curiosity is the gateway from criticism to compassion.
Or the gateway between criticism and compassion.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Curiosity is the gateway between criticism and compassion.
So thanks,
Jennifer.
Thanks for sharing this.
