102 Integrating Dark Masculine In Heart Connection

1:05:14

1:05:14

102 Integrating Dark Masculine In Heart Connection

by Ruwan Meepagala

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Last week, I coached a listener of the podcast on integrating the Dark Masculine archetype. I invited him on the podcast to share his experience with overcoming shame and fear of rejection in intimacy. We also discuss what to do when your needs seem to conflict with your woman's needs, and how to respond to a woman's past traumas.

Connection Trauma Consent Emotional Validation Shame Relationships Assertiveness Balance Self Acceptance Emotional Expression Emotional Safety Confidence Healing Emotional Resilience Masculine Archetypes Relationship Dynamics Healing Trauma Nonviolent Communication Trauma Responses

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Transcript

Today's episode is a slightly different kind of episode. The last couple of weeks I've had the pleasure of connecting with a few different listeners of the podcast, Guys who've also taken the Archetype Challenge. And one of these guys, His name is Mishka, Happens to live in Thailand. He happens to be on the island that I'm currently on, Koh Phangan. So it seemed crazy to not do our coaching session that came with the Archetype Challenge in person. And in our coaching session we spoke, We went pretty deep into, You know, Obviously his personal life but specifically the dark masculine archetype. And we worked through a current relationship he has of navigating that archetype and his intimate connection. And I felt like, Actually after our coaching session, I kind of felt like it should have been recorded because, You know, If you listen to the podcast, I did an episode on dark masculine conceptually a couple of months ago, I think. It's one of our more popular episodes in the podcast. But in speaking with Mishka, I feel like we got a little more direct into answering the question of how to navigate or how to embody the dark masculine specifically when you're with a woman who is maybe giving you signals that make it seem like it's not okay. How do you navigate your own shame? How do you maintain a heart connection while embodying your carnal, Sexual, Earthy, Predator nature? How do you navigate consent? And actually, Even though in this episode, We kind of worked off of our coaching session from a couple of weeks ago, We do spend some time more like the darker end of intimate relating. I think this episode also answers the question, What do you do when your needs and your woman's needs seem to not be able to coexist? Because I think a lot of guys get tripped up on that of like, Well, Someone's going to have to fail and this is where negative compromises happen and our people get resentful at each other and it kills the mojo between two people. Whereas there's actually a way to navigate this that maybe doesn't seem obvious at first. But anyway, I really commend Mishka for this episode of his vulnerability of actually sharing about his life and giving us an opportunity to apply the dark masculine concepts to real life in a practical way. Right now, You're listening to episode 102, Integrating Dark Masculine and Heart Connection. The Ruando podcast is an exploration of the unconscious and the game of life. Be sure to visit ruando. Com to get a preview chapter of my upcoming book, Infinite Play and free access to my content library. Enjoy the show. So what's been going on with that is that, So took the, You know, The realizations of last time that if I don't know, Just try anyway. And just the fact of like, Like if I reject myself before I can find out whether it's a yes or no, It's always going to be no. Yeah. Right. So I went with that realization and just with my confidence and just with a, With a good vibe and yeah, Maybe it was the next day or the same day. I can't remember, Arrived at her house and I was feeling good. Was really feeling my energy and I think she was like doing dishes or something. Yeah. And I like came behind her and like we started kissing and yeah, I was like feeling, You know, I was really feeling my sexual energy and there was like a lot of that between us and it was fun and it was exciting and it was like really like charged. And yeah, I was like quiet in like that taking assertive dark masculine sort of energy and it was fun. And it again got to the point where she went from body language being very clearly like a yes to that like, Which I can't like in how do you call it, Interpret. Yeah. Yeah. It's like just kind of like, I'm not sure now anymore. And so instead of like stopping or freezing as it was before, I was like, I was, And still my best, My interest was to have a, You know, Amazing experience for both, But I wasn't scared of, You know, Doing something wrong or getting a no. Right. So that was the thing we got down to the last time. So I just went from that and yeah, It didn't go that well. I guess she has like some trauma around like men not caring. Yeah. Right. And the old me would have like the old me was like really like asking permission and being like really like setting container and that sort of stuff. And like I've always got really positive feedback from that. But anyway, So now I was exploring this and I wasn't doing what I'd usually do. And this is kept kind of playing and I thought what's happening is, Which I later found out was accurate, Was that her breath, She was in her head. Her body wanted to continue, But like some part of her head, You know, Had doubts or fears or, You know, I might say this sort of stuff. And well, So I was like, Okay, Like instead of both getting in our head, I'm just going to like, I didn't do anything hectic, But I just kept like maybe kissing her body and just kind of like, You know, Just seeing like, I kept being with my desire in a way. I didn't, I didn't like go into, You know, Big extent with that. Like I didn't, You know, Like go to, You didn't do anything extreme. Exactly. Yeah. So, But then yeah, It really triggered her, Like really triggered her, Her trauma of, You know, Men not caring or not being considerate and stuff. And then especially when I told about my mindset and what I was like doing, Like, Like first it didn't land well because she was like, You know, I'd wish to know if you're trying out things like this, Like, And that was my first initial plan was to talk about it, But I came in and it was, It was just, It was like, It was on, You know, The energy was there and it was happening. So, So that's what happened. But so yeah, So, So it's been about integrating those two. Okay. Okay. I ask you, Do you, Do you guys feel closer now after that? Yeah. Like that made us feel closer. Yeah. I mean, Cause I, I mean, I don't know how much you want to share, But last time we spoke, It seemed to be identified. There was a fear of that negative discomfort as if it was like a final, Like, Oh, You lose the game. That's not true. Right. Like, You know, You had discomfort. You actually probably created more discomfort this time than in previous times, But in the results you're closer together. I think I'm guessing you probably both trust each other more. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely worth it. It was necessary. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you. A lot of the things you shared, I think really you touched on a lot of interesting things, Like just the fact that you said her body was into it, But her mind wasn't. It's like, You know, We have, We have multiple, We're not one thing, Right? We have these multiple parts of ourselves, Our brain and relating with a woman, You have to kind of deal with all, You know, You're relating to all parts of her. Yeah. So we're great stuff. Yeah. I mean, Those are one of the topics I wanted to discuss in general and it's beautiful that, You know, We could weave in like a real life example, But just that, That topic of balancing those two things, Like balancing in, You know, Integrating that carefulness of crossing boundaries and that consideration of her experience and, You know, For her to feel safe and all that. And like in, In like the sexual situation, Or let's say like in, Like in the bedroom situation and also like elsewhere, Just flirting or dancing, Whatever, Just, But balancing these two energies because, You know, There's so many women have trauma. So it's like, Like sometimes I have even fear of like, Like I've, It's definitely better now, But like even flirting or being a really bold with something just because the fear of being judged as, As like this, You know, Yeah. You know, After the Me Too movement and all these sort of things, Just being judged as like this, I don't know, How would you describe it? Like perpetrator or just like to, Yeah. Yeah. It's tricky because I mean, To really, I mean, From the men's world to really be, To really navigate this, You kind of have to expect that everyone's acting through their wounds and kind of forgive them for it, You know? Because I mean, So many guys your age and our age are also traumatized by being called perpetrators before they've ever done anything. It's kind of like this back and forth inhibitions being, Yeah. But so I think, You know, I commend you on doing this step of risking perpetration because you've probably healed a little bit of both of you, The two of you. Yeah, Totally. But yeah, Just like, Even like ecstatic dance or all these sort of situations and balancing like how can I like just be in full self-acceptance of what's happening inside me and my impulses and my, You know, Testosterone driven impulses and my masculinity and what's alive in me. And like if I want to show up like this, Like, Or even express like anger on the dance floor just in my own bubble or whatever, Just like navigating that thing of, Okay, Like I want to be full of myself, But like how much responsibility do I need to take of the traumas of others? Like how much do I need to facilitate that is kind of this, You know, Thing that I'm figuring out. Yeah, Yeah. This might be, It might be an odd example, But like, You know, You're talking about me too on like a society level, The guys who seem to really extend this narrative seem to be the ones who take on the guilt. Like you look at some of the celebrities, I don't know if you follow this stuff, But if you look at some of the celebrities who've been like, Oh, Me too, He did this bad thing. The only ones who are still villainized, I mean, I shouldn't say that. I mean, Obviously there's terrible ones like Bill Cosby, Like everyone agrees that was terrible, But like some of the ones where it's kind of like he wasn't really doing a bad thing. Like maybe he misread a signal, Like he meant well, But he's being in his masculine, Whatever. The ones who really got destroyed were the ones who like really took on this shame. Like you could see like the ones who apologized too much took on the shame and then not only did they kill whatever sexual energy is there, It's like, It just like reinforced this, The shaming narrative, Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's about owning that a lot of times, Like owning what's, You know, What's alive in me with respect and, And careful and same consideration. So it's just balancing those two, Isn't it? Yeah. Like for me to show up and express, You know, Sexual energy or interest or whatever. Yeah. Cause you can be a sexual beast without intending to harm anyone. Like those two things don't really have, They don't really have anything to do with each other. It's just when like harm or lack of oxytocin and that sexuality is together, That's when it causes harm, You know? So it's tricky though. It's tricky, Especially with like the whole generation of traumatized women. Yeah. A lot of guys are extra gun shy. Yeah. I guess that's it. Cause like, I don't feel it's, It's yeah, Like it's not, It's in a way, It's not nothing to do with me because I, You know what I mean? Like I'm like, I care and I'm, You know, Consider it and I don't obviously don't want to harm anyone, But because of, You know, All the trauma being there and, And for what other men have done and stuff like I need to have this assumption that every woman I'm interacting with has some sort of trauma from a man from before. Yeah. It's like, Can you beforehand accept that she's going to have a trauma response to you and you don't have a trauma response back? Like can you like forgive her that she's going to maybe throw some shame on you and not take on the shame and then love her back and then she can put her guard down and you can put your guard down. Right. And she can be hurt and she could be ravaged because that's what your animal bodies want to do and then no one has to feel like they're being violated. You know? Yeah. It's tough though. Actually I had a breakthrough actually similar in a similar topic. Did you hear my Madonna horror complex episode? I don't think so. Okay. It was an extension of the dark masculine is basically I'm sharing about how in my life there had been women who like I can go super dark with cause I don't really, Maybe we don't have that much of a heart connection. Like if I'm really honest, Maybe I have some contempt from them and maybe there's something I don't like about the personality because sexual chemistry and I could go like super, Super dark, Super polar, Super beastly because I wasn't in those connections, I wasn't really worried if she got upset at me. Like I wasn't worried about losing her love or something. Whereas with women who I've been in love with, It's been much harder for me to access that cause I'm so concerned about what she thinks. And with my current love, I was a little concerned before we became intimate that I would have that kind of experience where I was afraid to go dark. But I haven't had that with her because of the fact that even though I really care about what she thinks and I really am attached to her, She gives me so much approval that I know that if I accidentally like spank her too hard or go a little bit too dark, I know our connection will go away. And that's what somebody jumped out when we spoke out before, It's like one of the reasons why you and everyone, Myself included, Might put the brakes on their sexuality with a woman they care about is they don't want to risk losing the connection. But if you know the connection is there no matter what, Then you can kind of take those risks and mess up sometimes. Do you think with most men it's the fear of losing the connection or fear of being like shamed and you know like you're bad? I think the same thing, The shaming thing is like losing connection to all women. I mean in society if you get labeled as a perpetrator that might ruin. And then I think all of this is really primal like in Stone Age times if you're labeled as something bad then no women's going to want or like society won't want to connect with you. So yeah, I do relate to that experience. Yeah, Because the truth is if you really have good intentions and you really do have a real connection with a woman, You messing up one time by accident shouldn't destroy the connection. And it shouldn't even give you a lasting impression that you're a bad person. She should realize, Okay you're not a bad person, He maybe misread a signal or whatever. But it's hard. It's hard when there's a culture of everyone being quick to shame each other. And yeah, Like that culture of if someone does something quote unquote wrong, They deserve to be punished, You know that culture. They lose their career, They lose whatever, They're labeled as this forever. And I think that thing you mentioned, It also goes to like confidence and stuff like that. Like I've experienced this, I've heard you talk about it in your podcast even maybe about like when it's a woman whose opinion matters to us, Like then it's like we're more self-conscious and if it's just someone like one last time or someone could be like way more confident. Yeah. I met a lot of guys who like feel they can only have really good sex with women they don't love. Like the love and sex have to be a part of which is a shame of course. So yeah, I think this work, Even like you just working through this with your current partner, I don't know what she is, But like to you, But we're kind of feeling shame, Right? Totally. Because whether you guys are together for a long time or a little time or whatever, I don't know. You'll both go forth with less shame in you. So you'll shame future people more and we can create a positive effect on the world. I hope. Yeah. Yeah, Totally. I might have another, Let's see how this could start another topic, But maybe it's quite similar. I'm not sure. But like, So now what's happening between me and her is like, So her house got like her, The owner of her house, Airbnb in her house for three days. So she had to stay somewhere. So she stayed at my mind for three days. And yeah, I noticed it was really intense for me at some point and I had just had this like need of space and stuff. And we really managed that well, Like it triggered some of her stuff, Triggered some of my stuff. But basically the point I want to get to is this thing that, So yeah, She was someone I felt really attracted to when I saw her and the first, Like it was really like beautiful attraction and a lot of energy and stuff. And now there's this thing of like, I don't feel like, Like I haven't seen her since and there's like, There's resistance yet. So there's resistance in seeing her and like I can't tap into like that attraction that was there. And I feel like I'm having a bit of a blind spot or I'm having a really hard time to figure out whether it's just something organic that I just don't feel attracted anymore. And you know, There's just like a logical reason or whether it's like a blind spot of like some dismissive voiding behavior from me or like a, You know, Old narrative, Like trying to protect me from some pain or, You know, Some trauma based reaction of like, You know, That scary. And I'm like, Like, How do I not feel like, You know, Like in my mind I was like, I would just want to feel attracted to her. And then, Or I'm like, Or did some of the, There's like something happened to the clarity? Like, I don't know, But it's just like, I'm experiencing a blind spot right now there. And yeah, We'll see what happens. You cool with digging into it? Sure. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good thing. I mean, I think there's a lot of people are obviously just living with you. That's kind of a place where a lot of people lose polarity. Of course. Like there's, There's less, Less physical distance now. So like I wonder if by living together, You said it was intense. I wonder if you built up any resentments, Like maybe a little small things that you're like, Ah, I shouldn't do that. I mean, That's like a number one killer of sensation, The resentment. Yeah. Yeah. Any, Any resentment, Any little thing of like, Ah, I think I like. So for a couple of days now, Since I think she left on like, I don't know, Tuesday, Wednesday. So I've had a few days to myself now, But so today I hit something which I feel like could be closest to the truth. I think there was many things where like she took control or like, Or like, Like, You know, Like if I'd say like, Let's do this or let's go here, Like in, In, In insider exploration or whatever, Or like I need space or like then, You know, She, She took control. She kind of, I don't know, Like instead of following that, I'm not sure how much of this is like my interpretation, But like, I feel like, You know, She always had her input in what was happening and maybe, Maybe like that somehow, Like, I don't know, Maybe clarity. Let's talk about your experience. Cause it should seem, Oh, Actually her experience, Her experience. Do you feel resentful about that at all? Do you feel like, Do you feel like you were emasculated in any way from that? The first question felt more relevant. I think, I think, Yeah, There is, There is probably some resentment. Yeah. Just a little, Just, Just a tad, Just a little bit. Just cause there was like moments where I'm like, Like, I really just, I just really just need my space right now to, You know, Do this thing and like, I want to show up to you about whatever. But like she, You know, Triggered too much in her or like, I don't know, Like, So, Oh, Okay. So in those moments that you wanted space, You denied what you wanted for her sake. I was really trying to hold onto it and I expressed it to her, But then she showed up like fully crying. Like, Like she, She said, Okay. And then she went somewhere and then she came back, Like, You know, Like, Like it triggered, We had the opposite, Opposite trauma. Her being like, I'm not cared for, Like my experience doesn't matter. And mine is like, Um, Yeah, Like over giving. No, Actually I also like that, That my needs don't matter. Like if I want something like it doesn't matter because, Because I will be shamed and blamed and what I'm giving is not enough. That sort of thing. Like, Like I don't care enough or I don't love enough or, You know, And, And that, And my needs get diminished sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's so perfect that you guys found each other. Right. I can see how that triggers each other. Okay. If you weren't afraid, So can you state your fear in a sentence? Um, Yeah, I've said it already, But yeah, That my, My needs or desires don't matter or are not cared for. Was that it or was it, Was the core essence more that what you're giving isn't enough? Yeah. Yeah. Which one of those feels stronger? Well, It's hard to tap into that right now. It's also, It feels vulnerable with being recorded and everything, You know? Um, Not sure. Okay. Well, I'll say, I mean, I think both of those experiences are really common for guys. I mean, Especially men don't emote as much. So like you might be having a crisis and she might be having a crisis, But hers is always going to seem louder. And I think, I think a lot of men just had that general resentment towards women about that because like it's always louder. Like theirs usually. Um, But yeah, I mean, I mean, This is kind of a cliche, But like women are afraid of being too much and men are afraid of being not enough. And I think both of those things maybe are like one thing for you in this situation. That's very true because she's saying that that's, That is exactly one of the things she's expressing and did that and not being enough, Not showing up enough, Not having enough. Yeah. So that's, That's definitely a dynamic there. Yeah. Yeah. I will say before we even like explore it, I think it's a really challenging thing, Especially in your position because to go to like heal this in both of you, You kind of have to go and I mean, You have to go into a level of intimacy that's probably deeper than what you guys are at, Which may or may not be the desire of both of you or either of you or one of you, You know? So it's kind of a challenging thing. And I think a lot of, Uh, In like healing communities, People find each other to matching traumas. Uh, But it requires more intimacy than a lot of people maybe want at this, At the stage that I think I'm speaking kind of from my own experience, But I think it's a challenge that it's worth addressing. Um, That said, Uh, If you didn't have that fear, Let's say, Let's say you just knew a hundred percent that that wasn't true. Like that you are enough. Let me just somehow I knew it will imagine. What do you think you would do when she said, Uh, You're, You're treating me, My needs like they don't matter? Um, It's, It's hard to save me right now, But because there is a desire to like, How can we meet both of our needs? Because sometimes we, We, We think a strategy is that this one strategy, Like for example, Like getting your attention right now is the only way to meet my need. But you know, I know that there's more like there's more abundant way to, To, To meet one need. Um, So I guess there's always just, There is a desire to like, Okay, Can we just have something that meets both our needs for now? Um, Okay. It's fine. I mean, Uh, Well, I'll say what I have found with women, Even in my current relationship is that her need almost always is to be validated emotionally. And your need in this situation, Which I think is also common for most men is actual time. Like you actually need time and space. Like it's more material. Like you can measure it in minutes, In square meters, Maybe, You know, It's very, Whereas hers, Well, I'll just give you an example. Cause I actually had the same thing with my partner when she's upset and she often will come to me instead of my lap, Right when I'm in the zone, Like right when I'm like, I'm in the zone working. And in those moments I used to get really frustrated actually because that's my critical moment and I'm afraid that if I have to do a third problem, That's the hour that I was going to spend on myself or whatever that I needed. But almost always it doesn't take that much, That many minutes. It's like energy doesn't require, I'm thinking out loud, So I don't know if this is making sense as I'm speaking, But energy doesn't require minutes, Right? Like if you can let, You can almost like dump all of her needs onto her in a few seconds. And most women I think become satisfied. So that's something that's helped me at least. It's like, I'm going to not only meet her needs, I'm going to meet her needs, Really like dump a whole gallon of needs on her because then she'll be satisfied to give me my space. Does that help as a model at all? Or if I say that, Does something come to mind? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So what do you think that could look like in that situation? Well, What I also like, What, Yeah, Like, You know, I've studied non-violent communication, So like, You know, I know the method of, And that feels really good. And I do it from a heart, Not just from like a learned, You know, Technique, But just to connect to the needs that the other person is experiencing and just voicing them back to her in that situation. So like, You know, Like guessing at her needs. So validating, Validating to needs like that. That's what I did. And instead of then just like fully showing up to her energetically, Like I was like, Yeah, Okay, I like understand this way. I think there's, There's like this, This thing of like, I need to, I don't know, Like, It's like, Like I have a desire to know that, Like I have the freedom of choice, You know, And in my head it's like, Like if I can do, I can do this, What she wants, Or I will be, You know, Judged, Blamed or punished. So there's not that free will. You know, I think you've talked this about in one of your podcasts, I think of like how, You know, How did you say it to, There's only value in doing something that's considered like, I don't know, Like by choice. Yeah. There's no choice. It's not like really. It's not morality. Exactly that thing. So I think this is, This is maybe obviously the cause of your resentment. Like you lost your choice. Okay. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I think so. But it's amazing because we can talk about all these things. Like we talked about everything and she's super like understanding and even if I get frustrated like when she's not in her emotions, Like she can be really understanding everything. So we're able to talk about all these things. Well, Most of them, I don't know where we got stopped that now I don't feel like seeing her or haven't for the last few days. I think she might've done everything perfectly. My guess is maybe you still didn't act out of agency fully. Like when you mentioned the nonviolent communication thing, I thought it was almost like you're trying to appease her for her sake, Which in your, Except when you said there was no choice, I thought you were going to say like you doing this for her takes away what you're going to do for yourself. Is that? Yeah. That was kind of the thing was I was like, Like right now what I really long for, Like I had some crazy days with like visas and stuff. It was really hectic and I might need to leave Thailand actually. Oh damn. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. So there was like a lot of crazy. I was like, I just really need to eat this, This bowl of salad and bump my head to this music. Like I don't feel like going to some emotional drama like right now. So that was the, And then, You know, She's there crying. So it's like those two things can coexist, I guess. Is that, Yeah, I guess what I was trying to paint with this, Like dumping the energy on her model, It's like your needs exist in the material world. Her needs exist like in a different plane of existence. You can maybe satisfy her needs in an instant. So actually, So she was, She was saying whatever she said. I mean, It doesn't matter what her emotions were about. What do you think she really needed in that moment? To know that she matters and that I care and that, Yeah, What she really needed was that to know that like if she would lose her shit right now, Really like I would be there. Or if, You know, If she really needed me, Like I would be there and that I care. Okay. Yeah. So what do you think it could look like or could mean to 10 times satisfy her need? I don't know, Grab her, Like really just hold her and I don't know, Like voice how much I care or how much I am there. I think it's like something like something about the way you're talking about it gives me a sense that you're like doing the, Oh, She needs this thing. Let me get for like these 10 units of energy and then I can't go back to my thing. I think the thing with women often is like almost like you have to attack with love. Like you have to, You can't just like, You can't just like push off the invaders. You have to like go at them and defeat them and annihilate them completely. Right. Like, So like, You know, These invaders are like her fears that she's not loved. Like you need to like kill them all. Like you can't just push them back because if you could say the perfect thing and she's still going to keep crying because maybe, Maybe intellectually you did the right thing, But energetically she's still going to have that, Ah, I need, I need something from you and pulling. Like, I don't know. I mean, I'm just speaking from my, My, My own experiences, But like when I like, Which when my, When my partner comes to me in a need, Like I try to like do something that will eliminate all possibility that she's not loved. Like I'll get out of my seat, I'll pick her up, I'll take her somewhere. I'll even for 30 seconds maybe and like express to her somehow physically with my words that I'm there. And then when I feel her relax, Then I say, But by the way, I really need my time or whatever. And usually that's all she needs. You know, I can't speak for every woman obviously. And like the truth is there probably would some women who are so, So some people, All of us who are so in our wounds that they actually do need a lot. I would choose not to be connected with someone like that long term myself. But it doesn't sound like, You know, It sounds like the two of you have come together to like heal this thing. Both of you. Yeah. I do think it's on the masculine's role to do the annihilation of fears. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That's I think what exactly what happened. It's like, It's like, I was like doing that. What was your analogy to the invaders? Just keeping them back. I was like, Yeah, Babe, Like I hear your needs. I hear your needs. But, And the other option is like attack it and go full power. Like, Yeah, I hear your needs and here I am. That makes a lot of sense. That's that is helpful. Yeah. It's like, I forget where this comes from. I think it was in the art of seduction, Which I don't think is the best book for relationships, But like something about when, When she's coming to you, Pull her in more than she expected to go and she's going away from you, Push her away more than she expected to go. It's like either way, You're not going against what she's doing. You're actually following the direction she's going, But you're still leading it. Like you know, She's walking left and you pull her left. You know, She's going right and you lead her right. And that way you maintain polarity, But you also are going exactly in line with her consent with what she desires. Yeah. That's, That's just what came to it to me as well. Like the thing I did, Like push, You know, Keeping the invaders like that. I think that kills, Killed polarity because like, Like, I don't know, Maybe some part of my perceived that like I was forced or like I didn't have choice to do this. And then if I then initiate it, Attack it, Like, Like you said, Leading and very much, You know, Keeping the polarity of, Of, Of, Of the masculine role. And this might be idealism, But I would guess if you did this with full choice, Cause like the resentment is coming from your lack of choice, Right? Like if you chose to attack the fears, The fears between you, You might even feel better about all of your personal stuff. You might, You might have a little winter effect moment and be like, Ah, Yeah, So visa stuff, All this stuff is happening. I'm hungry, Blah, Blah, Blah. But yeah, I still did this. Like it might just feel good. Totally. Yeah. I could say that. Totally. Yeah. Cool. Well thank you for sharing all this. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I would just be telling real stories and this is great. Yeah. So how does this work? Is it going to be like fully like raw, Uncut or do you ever like, Unless, Unless there's something that you really feel, Right? Yeah. Yeah. I prefer not to one because, Well, Yeah, I just prefer not to keep it. Yeah. I'm just looking at my list of questions. Yeah. Unless you have something in mind. No, No. Yeah. I guess, Yeah, There's a couple maybe interesting topics we could talk about. One question that's coming up is like, What's like, I guess this is a funny question, But like what would you think is like a normal or healthy amount of attachment to having validation from women? Because you know, Like, You know, There's, You know, This nice guy bullshit of, You know, Pleasing and which comes from a really wounded, Unhealthy place. But then I guess there's also like this natural desire to have like a experience based feedback of, You know, Our competence or like our usefulness, Which also is validation for women, Right? It's a really good question. Yeah. I would go back to the whole king archetype thing of like, Whatever, It's not as politically correct, But like the masculine is supposed to be the head of a body, Right? Like when women are pregnant, They're vulnerable. When women are, When anyone's in their feminine, They're bad at making decisions. Like men too, If they're in their feminine, You know, Like it's kind of your role to assert what the reality is. So like in a moment of let's say, Or the earlier example of like, You make the correct read that both of your bodies want to go into this high polarity beastly mode, But maybe her mind because of trauma, Because of social conditioning is against it. Can you assert the reality that that is actually the correct reality? No, No. I mean, Not that you're going to say this, But it's like, No, No, Trust me. Both of our bodies want to do this, Right? And you have to be legitimate, Right? And it takes a lot of real ground of confidence because there's going to naturally be times when she or any people from the outside, Women in general, A given woman, Men, Whatever are saying, Oh, You're doing the wrong thing. I would say what has given me real confidence, I'll say with women first, But in general has been like in those high polarity moments, Like the ones that you described, I do what I actually think is right. Even if someone says it's wrong and then find out it's right anyway. It's hard. It takes faith. It takes real faith in your intuition, Real faith that your conscience is pure and you're not acting out of your own blind spots due to trauma or whatever. It's challenging, But I think that's the real feedback. So the feedback, Are you giving it to yourself? Like just from trusting? What do you mean? Well, It's like faith that you actually know what the right thing is. And no matter what people say, Whether they say, Oh, You're doing it wrong or they say you're doing it right, Like you're not using that outside thing to determine what's right. Using what you know is right with the faith and the assumption that eventually people will give you the real. I'll give you a clear example. Actually with women is the best because sexuality runs on certain mechanisms like say the dark masculine is like an architect we want to need to tap into. You do all the nice stuff of like being really attentive and really mindful of consent. That's really nice. Everyone loves that. It's better than being a perpetrator. It's beautiful, But it has nothing to do with sex. There's no sex in that. So like a lot of guys who eventually become really resentful of women, They do the nice guy thing. They do all the social niceties, But then no one wants to have sex with them because that's not what leads to sex. It's like, Can you, The beautiful thing about, I think why there's so much growth in sexual aspiration is that if you do the right thing, Women will want to sleep with you. It's like, That's the real validation. And then you have one hypothetical example is like she's verbally telling you all these things that seem like rejection, But you can feel her body's turned on. I know this is a taboo thing to say, But she's saying all these things and you feel her body's turned on, You sleep together. And then she finally admits, I was saying that because maybe I was intimidated or something. That's an experience a lot of guys have, Which give them the confidence in their instincts. I hope anyone listening knows that I'm not saying be violated or anything like that, But like it's scary because sometimes you have to trust what your body feels over what other people are saying. Like that validation of someone saying, Oh, You're a bad person when you're doing what you know is right or what you know is okay, What you think is okay. Because maybe there's some gray areas you're not really sure. That's not the validation you want to seek. The validation you want to seek is when you're actually feeling that you're doing something right and then she tells you, That was great. So to follow your own. And then. Yeah. And it's hard. I would say, I said this in workshops to younger guys, I think one of the best educations for a younger man is to sleep with older women who process through a lot of their stuff because younger women have just as many or just as innocent or had older women, Like a woman who's not looking to marry you, Who is just there. She can give you the real feedback. Not you, But I mean anyone, Any man, Real feedback where you get to know like, Oh, When a woman means this, She actually means this. And that's okay that I listen to what I know is right. It kind of takes some, I mean, For my case, It took a few experiences before I could trust my, Like, If I talk to a woman and she rolls her eyes, It doesn't mean she hates me. Maybe she's just testing me or maybe she's unsure. Maybe she's intimidated by me and she wants to push me away for her own safety. And then I don't have to blame her for it. I don't have to take it seriously. I can still connect. So I hope that wasn't too long of an answer, But yeah, It's a great question. Yeah. And I think it's important or it could be a good topic also to talk about. Like the importance, Like there's clearly a problem with men and women relating together. Like there's, You know, Either like crossing boundaries and the women being traumatized and men having no sensitivity or, You know, Then the other extreme of no polarity and like this, You know, Balls chopped off, Nice guys. So I'm like, What is it that like the mass of men, Like what tools do they need? Or like, You know, Like how can we as influencers and content creators, Like what do we, Like how can we make an impact? But yeah, Like for example, Like maybe half a year ago I posted a video about like how to receive a no and how like all this, Like how to create a safe sort of container. And like it got received like, You know, It has like maybe 5, 000 views and like, You know, Like the world is hungry for that sort of stuff. But to not then take it to the extreme of, You know, Where the polarity lies. So I'm just wondering, Like what's your opinion on how, Like what do the men need or like what does the world need to balance this thing out? Yeah. Like on the super macro level, Like world, World, I think it's kind of what we touched on earlier. Like if everyone can respond without increase, It's like you can respond by increasing trauma or decreasing trauma, Right? Like if you say fuck you to every woman who makes you feel bad, They all go off feeling terrible and they are even worse to the next generation of men. It's cycles. I think that's why we're at where we're at now. Where like women have to be extra mean when they say no. Men take it extra personally when they receive a no, Just to use your example. Like and this just makes it worse and worse and worse and worse. If you could forgive someone for being mean to you, You send the cycle in the other direction of like, Okay, She said something really mean to me. It was uncalled for, But I'm not going to retaliate. I'm just going to accept that she's going through something and do something else. I think that's the general, I mean, How you make the world a better place. With this though, I think it's, Yeah, I mean everything we're doing, Education, It's a shame that most of the beliefs between men and women are very wrong that most people believe. Between men and women, Like meaning men and women having different. . . Well, Having different realities is one thing. We have different brains. We perceive the world differently. Different things matter more than other things, And that's one thing. Then also like our culture gives us wrong information about how people connect. That consent stuff is great and important. It's amazing that this generation of men are the most aware of women's feelings of any generation that's beautiful, But to think that that's going to get you laid or that's going to make you attractive to women is just not true. You have all these guys who end up getting resentful that they did all the right things supposedly and then no one wants to connect with them internally. I wonder though, Because I was doing that for a couple of years and it did work. Which part? Like asking, May I touch your whatever. Yeah, Yeah. May I do this? Can I. . . Women loved it. I was getting laid a lot and a lot of women would get emotional because they were like, This is the first time that I really can feel like a man cares and stuff. Maybe I was doing it with intensity of like I was really present and there was still that energy of. . . I would assume so. Yeah. Because I just want to be clear, I wasn't saying that it makes a woman unattracted to you. I mean, It's just like that exists on the safety level where she maybe dropped her guard, She was a nice guy, But that's not what makes her want to jump your butt. Right. It would be the assertiveness and the penetrative sort of presence. It might remove the block if like, Oh, Maybe she thinks you're a man, But she thinks you're an asshole. She's not going to want to sleep with you either and those types of things are nice. But yeah, And then also, I mean, I think just like as a man becomes more confident, As a woman becomes more confident, I've heard this more from older women, They get kind of tired when there's too much consent conversation. But for someone who has maybe been disrespected, It might be the most important thing for her at the time. Yeah, And it feels like most of the women I've connected with, They all have such a baggage of trauma. I don't know if it's just the women I'm connected with or. . . Well, It's a few things. I mean, You're 24? 25. 25, Okay. Yeah, I may think it's age a little bit, Not that I'm that much older than you, But also when you're in healing communities, People come here to get healed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more, And we can talk about relationships more, But what are your goals in life? I know you're becoming a men's coach, Or you are a men's coach. How's that experience been for you? It's been really great. So right now I have two men that I'm taking on a journey for a few months, Like one-on-one coaching. And so far it's been really amazing to show up for them and yeah, Just to see the process bubbling, Just to see in a few weeks time them being more in touch with their masculinity and having a more healthy relationship to themselves and feeling more confident, Just in a few weeks. And especially after our session, It inspired me to just show up as myself without planning anything, Without having. . . Just to show up and just to follow my curiosity and my intuition. And since I've been doing that, The sessions have been going even deeper and really diving in down to the shadows and back up and to wholeness. So that's been quite beautiful. So yeah, My goals is to fully pursue that. I feel so passionate about this stuff. Just to take my own journey and yeah, It's really the source of my fuel, All the things I've went through in regards of my relation to myself and masculinity and my femininity, To just navigate that whole thing. Yeah, So I just really want to package my journey and. . . Nice. And yeah, I want to really share it into the world and be there to support men. Yeah, That's great. Yeah. I like your vibe. I think you're going to be very successful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, And what you said, For me, It became a huge weight off my shoulders when I stopped trying to do anything in my coaching sessions and just like, What is the most interesting thing, About their lives obviously, Not about anything, But like, All of this is just stories. Exactly. It's like, Can you make their more. . . Can you help them make. . . Can you help your client have the most exciting story possible? That's all you're doing. Yeah. Right? Solving problems is just a part of their story. You're having them achieve goals. It's just part of having a good story. Yeah. Yeah. And after doing that, It's like dropping out of my head and thinking and rational, Sort of like what would be the best thing to do or whatever. It just comes up. It just comes from somewhere deeper. Yeah. Okay. Ask this question. Okay. Suggest this exercise right now or whatever. It's coming from. . . I don't need to even weigh them out much. This is the thing now. Yeah. Because worst case scenario, It's just a silly thing. I don't know if you mind me sharing, But we did kind of a visualization thing when you and I spoke. It was towards the end of our session too. Yeah. And I even thought, I guess it might be silly because I just met you. So we visualized some stuff and I thought it was interesting. I think it was useful to you as well. Just visualizing. Totally. We were visualizing middle fingers or something. Wagging fingers. Oh, Wagging fingers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know how much you've experienced with psychedelics, But that's kind of the experience I've had that has been healing. Sometimes random images that are symbols that I figure out later and that's kind of what you're doing with a coach sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Can I have a look at the list? Oh yeah, Sure. If you want. Yeah. I don't know. I guess. Yeah. Maybe what I'm actually interested in is like, What's your biggest source of fuel in the work you're doing? And what's the source of motivation that makes you want to stand up for men and do what you're doing in your work? What's motivated me actually is people like you who I actually get to interact with directly and say they've been possibly affected by my podcast or stuff like this. That makes me excited to come up with more stuff. I think I'm kind of going in a direction where I want to bring something new or different. That's why I'm getting really into this history stuff. I think there's a lot of grounded lessons in history. And then really understand the roots of say masculinity or why people are certain ways. I really want to get to what reality is and why it exists the way it does. There's stuff that seems dark of like men do have a raping impulse in them. It's natural. It doesn't mean that we should, But that's in us. And why does that in us? Because for many of our ancestors, It was a useful behavior. Anyway, Stuff like that I think is just fascinating. And I like getting into that stuff. Totally. And that sort of stuff helps us men to have self-acceptance and understanding instead of shame. Like, Oh shit, I have this impulse. I'm so bad. I'm so bad. Whatever. But everyone has it. So instead of that, It's like, Oh, OK. It's normal. And I don't have to act it out, But I can still gain integrity with myself. I think that's really maturity, Accepting that there are things that are unpleasant, But that's what they are. Because the alternative is shame, And that's not useful to anyone. I should go share something from my history stuff. I don't know if you're into history at all. But I've been working on this series for a while, And it keeps getting bigger and denser and deeper. And it keeps getting lost in my head of like, I'm focusing on warfare. And for a while, I kind of went off on this tangent. I was like, Oh shit, What does this have to do with masculinity? I kind of lost. So this week, Actually, I found this missing piece of how warfare connects to masculinity and why war is the backbone of masculine behavior in human culture. And it's Stockholm syndrome. You know Stockholm syndrome, Right? Yeah. I realized war has never meant anything to women. Not because women couldn't fight, Like cave women are probably way stronger than you and I. But in the Stone Age, If women didn't care who won the battle, Because whoever won the battle would be who they mated with. That's the reason why, I don't know, It was a profound moment to me of like, Okay, That's why women have never been interested in war, Because genetically, It doesn't actually matter. They'll fall in love with whoever's taking care of them. Which is a taboo thing to say, That's the reality. And I was speaking about this with my girlfriend and she's like, Oh yeah, That's why so many women have fantasies about being abducted or being taken or being captured. That for thousands of generations, The best thing for a woman genetically was to be taken by an alpha male because she would be safe, She would be fed, She would have high status children. And that's why women are drawn to that, Even though it's unpleasant to be around someone like that, For example. Anyway, Stuff like that I think is so interesting and I could talk about it forever, But that's what I'm working on these days. Do you think that is why there's this thing of women being attracted to assholes? Yeah, I know. Even if there's strong assholes, They have to be strong. Well, It's the strength. It's that someone who is willing to be an asshole doesn't have the nice guy behaviors and in the steps in the Paleolithic era, That kind of guy was more likely to win a battle, Probably. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think it all comes down to stuff like that. And I'm not saying that all masculine traits are good or not that everything about traditional masculinity is positive or even useful to men, But they all come from something real. It's not like people just made up stuff. There are reasons why these behaviors exist because at some point to our ancestors, They were useful and important and they're in us because of that. So we have to integrate them because they can't just be deleted, Even if they're not pleasant. I would even think. . . Well, Anyway, I'll just say when I was getting into the darkness and getting in touch with my dark side and sexuality, I would get so frustrated that women wanted to be choked or taken control of because that was so beyond my comfort zone that I would rather than just want to have nice vanilla sex. I would prefer that actually. But I had to get real with myself, Like this is just the thing that exists. And it was actually very freeing for me to get in touch with that because I was so disassociated from that. I couldn't even feel it. Yeah. I remember being shocked. This is way back. So I'm having sex with this really cute, Innocent, See me hippie girl. And she's like, I want you to choke me and slap me and stuff. And I was like, Literally, Choke me? I was like, What the fuck? And back then I thought this comes from culture and porn and stuff like that, Not realizing like no, It actually has like. . . Yeah. If anything, Porn is like a perversion of these deep, Archetypal psychodramas in us. So I think it's the most freeing thing to be able to create so much trust and safety that you both could go off the deep end and play out this archetypal drama of you being the caveman. If you don't, Assuming that's what you both want. I have a question. How often do you face very actual criticism or some shaming or blaming for masculine behavior or that sort of stuff? Is that something that still appears in your life? Oh yeah. Actually more and more. Yeah, Because you're very visible. Yeah. I mean, I'm not very visible, But as I become more visible, I talk about being in a sex cult. Yeah, All the stuff that we're talking about, There are ways that men and women are different and for some reason in our society, That's a taboo thing to say. And anytime you speak about power dynamics, People always assume that women are being oppressed and it's understandable women have been oppressed a lot, But yeah, So I do get criticized. I had a video speaking about. . . Well, Maybe I shouldn't have titled it Women's Crazy Emotions, But when a woman is being emotional, Sometimes the kindest thing for her is to not listen to what she's saying and listen to what she's feeling and then chart things out based on what you know is true rather than the stuff she's saying. The stuff she's saying might be a detour or it might be a whatever. Anyway, I get criticized for stuff like that a lot. And then because I speak about being in a cult without saying that I'm traumatized, Everyone who's in a cult says, Oh, I'm a victim, I'm a victim. I'm like, I had a good time overall. I had a positive experience. People get angry at me for that a lot. So I think it's part of it. Sometimes I get hate mail and they're obvious. They're always anonymous. They're always from a fake email address. So I just know, Even though sometimes the words that they say to me are mean or they do hurt my feelings a little bit, I just know that they're hurting. And yeah, I just try to recognize that. Do these things ever happen in life outside of online media and your podcast and stuff? Live interactions? Getting criticized for being, I don't know. I just trust that my intentions are good and anyone who actually gets to know me will see that. For sure. So it's not something that happens much. No, I think maybe someone who didn't know me well maybe heard me say something out of context, But then once they got to know me, They didn't. I think that's true with everything. You know, Anyway, That's all I'll say on that. Is that a fear you have as you grow out of exposure? Yeah. Yeah. It's something I had to work with. Because I'm very expressive, Very much on the path of emotional embodiment and stuff. And for example, At Ecstatic Dance, If I feel any sort of fiery energy, I'll express that and I might really be flexing my muscles or making scary sounds or screaming a little bit or making aggressive sort of movement just in my own field, Just embodying what's going on inside me and just giving that space. Yeah, There is fear of being judged for what the fuck is he doing or that sort of thing of dangerous, Toxic masculinity. But it's not that I've ever actually, No one's ever confronted me on that, But it's just in my head. It's been a thing I've just needed to face. And it's that thing of like, Hey, Just deeply recognizing that this is right, There's nothing wrong with this and it doesn't really matter how other people opinionate that. And this is kind of a cliche thing to say, But if you're not offending anyone, Then you're probably not saying anything or doing anything. Exactly. Playing it safe is just not interesting. And it's not helpful to anyone. And the truth is, When you're being in your dark masculine, You might accidentally cross the boundary and you have to work through that. You might do something too much or you might do something that you're late. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I've done things for the sake of self-expression that afterwards I'm like, I really didn't need to, Or I'm a little embarrassed, But that's part of it too. Can I be right with myself for putting out something that I thought later was dumb or something? You could always delete it. Yeah. I'm actually realizing now as we're speaking that ecstatic dance is such a playground for me to work with different things. Lately I expressed last time was that I'm practicing this thing of being okay with my desires and impulses and I'm being in the energy of taking and claiming what I want by going and dancing with women with very assertive presence that they for sure know that I want to dance with them and I'll show up right in front of them. And it's fun. But that used to be so scary because of all the things that we talked about before. Right. Yeah. So anyway, There's so many things I'm playing with there. I don't know, Yesterday I found an interesting edge while dancing, Which was like, Yeah, Just for the last maybe month, Every time I'm ecstatic, I go and dance with women. And it used to be, Used to for some reason be scary because of things that I've expressed, But now it feels quite comfortable. But there was this moment where it's like, Okay, This will be like a moment where it would feel good to share touch or grab her. And even thinking there's a high chance that she would also want that, But just again, That fear of being too abrupt, Being all of a sudden too much like touching someone, Because there's no verbal consent. And I don't know her. I've never seen her. It's just like, We're both moving quickly. Like can I just grab her waist or her neck or something? It's like, I want to do this and this high chance that she would like it, But I was like, I don't know how to do that right now. And then it was just like frustrating. I was like, Fuck, I don't know what to do. I was like expressing in one body also. I don't know, This is kind of an edge and something I want to play with and ask my friends who do that. Like, How do you do that? Yeah, Yeah, And like with anything, It's pre accepting yourself that if you do something perfect. Yeah, That's the worst thing. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, Cool, Man. Yeah, It's fun to walk and speak with you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Was there anything else you want to speak about? No, Not really. What's going on with your visa? Are you going to get kicked out of Thailand? Yeah, Probably I need to go within like, I'm over staying right now. Oh shit. Yeah. I had a court case a few months ago. It's a little bit of something and yeah, Apparently no place. It should have been all good, But some weird bureaucracy like court and immigration not matching. You have to go back to Finland? I'm thinking Bali or Finland. I'm not sure yet. Okay. Probably Bali is better. Have you been? Yeah, I was there like a year ago. Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I went younger or sooner in life. I wish I traveled sooner in life. Yeah, I heard you talk about it in one podcast about there being so much more women and I was like, Oh, Okay. That's why I had such a great experience there. I think it's actually being in such a feminine environment is really healing for a man. I think every masculine man probably eventually gets sick of it. Because once you feel healed and complete, You want maybe something more edgy. But yeah, I think I googled it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Cool, Man. Cool. Do you have a website? Anything you want to promote? You can find me on Instagram, Empowerment with Miska. Cool. M-I-I-S-K-A. Also Facebook. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Content. How soon are you leaving? I'm not sure yet. It's kind of open. Okay. Let me know before you go. Maybe we could do this again. Yeah. Okay. I'll see you guys later.