And I think that's why talking about forgiveness is so important because it's so liberating,
It's so freeing,
And it's the only way that you are actually going to feel comfortable in your body and in your soul and you're going to live the life that you want.
Like you were saying,
If you never admit a mistake,
If your shield is always up,
Then you're never going to grow.
So it's getting to a place where you get excited about realizing your mistakes and therefore the growth that will come to it without falling to the next step,
Which is beating yourself up.
You can actually practice forgiveness and you can be really clear of what you're going to allow in your life again and what you're not.
They're not really the same thing and I think often we confuse that.
Absolutely.
I think,
Like you said,
It's often very important to actually decide who are the people that I will allow or won't allow in my life and that is completely separate from the decision or the evil that I'm going to forgive.
You should be able to forgive everybody,
But only allow those into your life that are having a positive impact.
Hi,
Welcome to the Spiritually Hungry Podcast,
Episode 3.
We're so excited to be with you today and we're going to speak about something that comes up for all of us.
It's about being able to let go and offering forgiveness.
When we talk about forgiveness,
It's not just forgiveness to those who have hurt us,
But it's also being able to forgive ourselves.
Think about this for a second.
We get stuck in situations,
Thinking of situations and past things that have happened to us,
That have hurt us or even things that we've done to other people.
If you're anything like me,
I'm sure there's things that you wish you hadn't said or you hadn't done,
Things you wish you could take back.
How do we move on and get past that hurt and that pain?
How do we really let go?
As Benjamin Franklin once said,
The history of errors of mankind,
All things considered,
Is more valuable and interesting than that of their discoveries.
Acknowledging our errors allows us to make adjustments and to have empathy for others who have been making mistakes as well as ourselves.
Being wrong is a vital part of how we learn and change.
Every time we make a mistake,
We have a new opportunity to revise our understanding of ourselves,
Our partner and the world at large.
So Michael,
What do you want to add to that?
Well,
When we talk about forgiveness,
I think there's two main areas that most of us either get stuck in or get better at working through.
That is first,
Forgiving others for hurt that they or at least we believe they caused us.
Second is forgiving ourselves for mistakes we made,
For decisions that we've made that in retrospect we think were wrong or at least wrong at that time.
And when I think about forgiveness,
I think we have to start with forgiving ourselves.
There's a teaching from the Kabbalists that says that often it is not the mistake or the failure or the fall that is the problem,
But the upset and the sadness that we feel after the fall.
There is an example in the Torah,
In the Bible,
There's a story as many might know of a moment in history when the Israelites coming out of the Egyptian exile find themselves at Mount Sinai,
A place where eventually the wisdom really that from there forward took the humanity,
The Israelites and then humanity,
The Judeo-Christian tradition begins.
But in the moments before that there is a fall,
A mistake,
Sometimes referred to as a sin,
It's called the golden calf.
Interestingly,
The Kabbalists say that the light,
The wisdom,
The stature that the Israelites lost in that moment of failure,
They did make a mistake and they did fall.
But the problem the Kabbalists say was not that they fell,
But rather the upset and the sadness and the lack of forgiveness that they had for themselves after the fall.
And from there the Kabbalists teach that often the problem is not that we fell or that we made a mistake,
But the way we beat ourselves up afterwards and almost never letting it go.
And for me that's maybe one of the most important spiritual questions.
How quickly can I forgive myself?
And then of course how quickly can I forgive others?
Because I think these are too intertwined.
If I find it difficult to forgive myself,
I will find it even more difficult to forgive others.
And this I think is a good place for us to start our thoughts about in our conversation around forgiveness.
First,
How do I learn and what are the tools that I can use to forgive myself?
And then what is the benefit of,
Because it's important to understand the benefit,
And how do I really begin to forgive others?
And as I go through life,
I think it's important that we ask ourselves this question constantly.
How much more quickly can I forgive myself?
How much more quickly can I forgive others?
And Monica,
Before I ask you to both read the question and share with us some thoughts on this,
One of my favorite teachings is from a Kabbalist,
His name is R.
B.
Sarla Vrujian,
And he said that if a person does not believe that after making the greatest mistake ever,
Falling to the lowest place ever,
If a person does not know that a second later he or she can ascend to the greatest heights,
Then he hasn't or she hasn't even begun any spiritual understanding.
And this I think is really an important place to get to.
But I think as you're speaking,
There is a question we need to all answer for ourselves.
Why is it,
And it's harder for some than others,
But why is it so hard to forgive ourselves?
What is it that we think about ourselves and who we are?
Because we tend to be very self-punishing in many situations.
And I think we also tend to think that we are the last thing that we've done.
And that can work either way,
Right?
We're the last good thing we did.
Let's say I did something great and my ego is really excited about it.
So I'm an amazing person and I think that that's where I am and I'm not like somebody else,
Right?
It's easy to place judgment in that way.
And then also conversely,
If I did something really bad that I have a lot of shame about that I'm having a hard time forgiving myself with,
Then I feel like,
Okay,
I'm a horrible person and undeserving of good things.
And I think if you spend too much time in either place,
This process of self-awareness,
Self honesty,
Which all leads to forgiveness almost never happens.
You stay in that place,
Whether it's being a victim or feeling shame or blaming,
Right?
All of these different emotions come and we just start to feel just not great.
Right.
It's interesting as you were talking and I'll take maybe all of this conversation even one step back.
And I think the big question is,
Why do we make mistakes?
And I think it's important to realize that you can call it failure,
You can call it a mistake.
It's actually not only a necessary part of our soul's process in this body,
But actually is the most important part.
You know,
I think you asked the question,
You know,
Why is it so difficult for us to forgive ourselves?
And I think the most obvious answer would be our ego,
Right?
Nobody ever wants to be wrong.
Correct.
Right.
I mean,
Even the smartest one in the room have all the answers and have the last word.
Even in preparing for this podcast,
We had,
We were going through the questions and we had conversations.
And I think it's important that we admit that no person ever really wants to admit that they're wrong.
Because the ego,
The ego,
And again,
This is not the better part of us,
Right?
The ego wants to always be right.
So I think you have to start,
You have to start there,
Which is that actually admitting failure,
Admitting a fault is not only not a bad thing,
It's actually an amazing thing.
And I have to say,
That's where growth actually stems from.
That's how transformation occurs,
Which we know leads to happiness.
It's funny as you were speaking,
I'm thinking that when,
If we have a big ego and we keep feeding the ego and we don't allow ourselves to actually own up to our own mistakes,
Like,
Oh no,
It's the other person,
You know,
You reflected on something else and it's about them,
Then you are going to feel lack inside.
You are going to feel unhappy.
You are going to feel empty and you're not going to actually necessarily connect it to that,
Right?
Because we're so busy saying,
No,
It wasn't me,
It's them.
Take zero ownership.
But unless you can really be authentic with yourself and be honest and own up to it,
It doesn't mean that you're bad.
If you made a mistake,
It means you're human,
Right?
I think that's exactly the point.
I think the ego's game is this.
It says,
First of all,
Never admit that you're wrong.
Why?
I'll die.
The ego will have a death.
Well,
Exactly.
And it wants you to think if you ever admit that you're wrong,
You're a bad person.
And you're unworthy of love or whatever your objective is.
Whereas the opposite is true.
That both admitting that I've made a mistake and admitting that I've fallen is actually the most powerful,
Positive thing you can do for yourself.
As long as you then don't listen to the egos next,
The ego then says,
Well,
Okay,
Well,
You're admitting that you made a mistake,
You're wrong.
Now you've got to prove,
Or you've got to really go very far to prove that you're better than everybody else,
Which is also ego,
Right?
It's a very lonely place to be and to exist.
And I think that's why talking about forgiveness is so important because it's so liberating,
It's so freeing,
And it's the only way that you are actually going to feel comfortable in your body and in your soul,
And you're going to live the life that you want.
I mean,
That is the goal of us doing this podcast,
Right?
To be spiritually hungry isn't suddenly that you have a desire to be enlightened.
We want to offer this so that you have a happy,
Healthy life and relationship with yourself first and foremost.
Right.
And a lot of it I think has to do with shifting our thoughts or consciousness around maybe the most some of the most important situations in our lives.
And I think this one is one that is so important because it influences our lives every single day.
So what we're saying is this,
Right?
The ego,
We have to realize that first the ego is that voice within us that always says,
Don't admit you've made a mistake.
Now once you've admitted even internally that you've made a mistake,
The ego then takes it to the next step.
This is what you are,
You're a bad person.
Whereas if you resist the force of the ego and you're excited to admit mistakes and you're excited to learn because like you were saying,
If you never admit a mistake,
If your shield is always up,
Then you're never going to grow.
So it's getting to a place where you get excited about realizing your mistakes and therefore the growth that will come to it without falling to the next step,
Which is beating yourself up for it.
And I think that also the scary part for people probably listening is,
Well,
It doesn't feel safe for me to be that vulnerable in front of other people because they might hold it against me if I admit that I'm wrong.
But this is really about you and your relationship with yourself and then expressing to those that you deem worthy,
Right?
That you love that are in your inner circle.
Let's say that I'm going to be vulnerable right now.
It's very difficult for me.
Please just hear me.
It's going to be uncomfortable at first.
It's going to be a growth,
But ultimately it will be something that you're comfortable with.
So how do we actually get past the hurt and the betrayal,
Right?
How do we start that because there's no playbook in life that tells you how to do this.
So what others have done to us because we're addressing two types of forgiveness.
One is forgiving myself and second is forgiving others.
And there's going to be an overlap because sometimes we blame others because we can't.
It's too uncomfortable to not blame ourselves,
But to look within and say,
OK,
Where was my part,
Right?
They're connected in that way.
And I think we'd all agree that forgiveness is a simple concept,
But it's the execution that's really difficult for the reasons we mentioned,
Mostly connected to the ego.
But there's this quote that I love from this author.
Her name's Catherine Schulz.
And she says that it's the wrongness,
Not the rightness that can teach us who we are.
The experience of being right is imperative for survival and it gratifies our ego.
And really in our culture,
It associates error with shame,
Stupidity,
And ignorance.
I can understand why this is something that most people run from,
Right?
That's a really important point,
Because like we said,
I think even for myself,
I think every one of us needs to actively separate those two thoughts.
Making a mistake,
Falling,
All that is not only an important,
Necessary intrinsic part of our reality.
It's one of the best things that can happen to us.
The other part,
Which is that we think we're stupid or all the negative beating up of ourselves that can come from admitting a mistake,
That has to be separated out.
And this isn't something that happens in a day.
Nobody's going to listen to this podcast and already be able to disassociate those two reactions to a mistake.
But I think unless you do that,
Unless you do that and really take the time to think and realize,
No,
Admitting a mistake,
Failure,
Falling,
All that is amazing.
It's actually part of the system.
That's part of my process.
And that never,
Ever means that I'm a bad person,
That I'm a stupid person,
Or that I'm ignorant.
And really,
Again,
Really taking the time to meditate on that truth is maybe one of the first steps you can take to begin to come towards forgiveness.
And it reminds me of a quote from Gandhi.
He says,
The weak can never forgive.
Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong because to forgive requires honesty,
Humility,
Commitment,
Generosity,
And courage.
It is very difficult to do.
But again,
It's the first step.
I think that the thing we need to at least agree with,
The first thing is to understand that we're wrong about what it means to be wrong.
Right.
As you just said.
And if you just have that for your mantra.
I almost feel like we should stop the podcast right here,
Give everybody a few minutes to think about that.
And myself included.
That imagine what your life would be like if you were able to get excited about failure and mistakes and never making that about you being stupid,
Ignorant,
Or bad.
I saw an interview with the well-known investor Ray Dalio and he said one of the most important things in his company is that you have to remove your ego and receive feedback from everybody,
Which means being open for literally anybody telling you from the lowest person in the company to the top person in the company,
Having that interaction where anybody can tell the other,
Well,
I think you're making a mistake here.
He said it's so important.
Logically,
It's so important because again,
As you said,
Otherwise,
You're never going to grow.
But again,
I think this is the real salient point.
We need to be able to separate those two out.
Get to a place where we embrace being wrong.
Embrace even somebody else pointing out a mistake that we made because that's how I'm going to grow.
How amazing is that?
Separate that completely from the other thought that ego wants us to have,
Which is,
Oh,
You made a mistake.
You're a bad person.
Oh,
You made a mistake.
You're an idiot.
Oh,
You made a mistake.
Or I think even with your example you gave,
If somebody is running a company,
They have a very,
Very healthy ego.
If somebody is telling them what they could be doing better,
They might think that,
Oh,
They're being found out.
They're not good enough to run the company.
Again,
All of this first has to do with what we think of ourselves,
How we value who we are.
The more that you think you're worthwhile from a healthy place,
Not from ego,
The more open,
Of course,
You're going to be to feedback and opinion.
Start there.
It might not be so easy to practice it in your company right now,
But at least start in the places where you're walking around with a heavy heart because of things that you just can't let go of.
I'll give you an example.
I've shared this before.
I know Monica knows the story because she was in it.
It's a small story,
But I think it's really a good indication of where we want to get to.
We were at an event some time ago,
And somebody had baked something.
He was so excited to come share it with me.
I'm sitting there at the table.
I'm engaged in conversation with other people at the table.
He comes behind my shoulder,
And he gives me the plate of what he baked.
He was so excited.
I took it.
I think I said,
Thank you.
I put it down.
We all took of it.
Then Monica turned to me.
She said,
You know,
He was so excited to share it with you.
He really wanted your feedback.
He didn't want just a quick thank you.
He really wanted you to engage.
I think I said,
Because you didn't see his face.
You didn't really look up.
You just motioned and said,
Thank you.
I kind of saw the hurt in his face.
Oh,
He was hurt.
I didn't tell her that.
Disappointed.
Yeah.
When Monica told me that,
I have to say I got excited.
Who wants to be that person who goes through life either hurting people by actively doing it or just not paying attention?
We don't want to.
I don't want to be that.
I don't think anybody listening to this wants to be that person.
But unless you embrace feedback that comes with not listening to your ego.
Imagine if I would have said,
Oh,
I'm not going to listen to you.
You're wrong.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
My ego,
Of course,
Wanted me to say that.
But we want to be that person who embraces mistakes.
I'm sorry,
Of course.
I know that I'm going to make a thousand more mistakes.
And I really hope that Monica or somebody else is there to point them out to me.
And hopefully I will know that none of those times will it ever mean that I'm a bad person or a stupid person.
It's just that we all this is part of who we are.
We are here to grow.
Here to grow means we're going to fall and we're going to get up.
We're going to fall and we're going to get up.
And hopefully we can embrace the failure,
The mistake and completely forgive ourselves knowing that not only is it part of the system,
It's some of the best moments of our lives when we are fallen,
Forgiven ourselves for it,
And then gotten up and hopefully grown and changed from there.
And then you know next time somebody comes over to you,
You look them in the eye.
Being the joy yourself on that person's face actually makes you feel good,
Right?
And that's how we're all connected and that's how we have less misunderstandings and miscommunications with one another.
But the foundation has to be your ability to forgive yourself,
Right?
Because if for every mistake,
Which I know can happen,
For every mistake you beat yourself up and can't forgive yourself,
Then you're never going to be able to be open to grow from it.
I remember,
You know,
I speak about this openly,
But when I had anorexia,
There was so much shame,
An overwhelming amount of shame,
Mostly for what I was doing to myself,
You know,
Starving myself to death,
But I just felt like I had to be perfect.
And that was self-imposed,
Of course.
I was a perfectionist and I just felt like if I made a mistake in any area,
Then people wouldn't like me.
And I certainly didn't like me,
Right?
And when I realized that that was an impossibility and one that was not going to bring me much happiness,
I started to practice forgiveness and I started to be so much freer.
And then I started to finally,
Over time,
Recognize when I made a mistake,
I'd be like,
Okay,
When you know better,
You do better.
And then I would make a mental note and then next time I would make a different choice and I would feel really proud.
So then the feelings of shame got replaced with being proud of being able to make better choices from the ones that I felt were not good enough.
And that was the really,
That was the beginning of the relationship,
Of the healthy relationship I started to have with myself.
I think that's such an important point because eventually you were in touch with yourself and you knew that it came from your thoughts about that you needed to be perfect.
Well,
It was either that or I was going to die.
I didn't really have,
I couldn't survive that reality anymore,
Right,
Of trying to be perfect and never making a mistake.
I could hardly even take a deep breath in because,
Oh my,
I know I didn't want to draw attention to myself in case I did something wrong.
I'm just not sure how many people are self-aware enough to know that the reason why they don't forgive themselves is because they have a sense that they,
Or the ego tells them,
You have to be perfect.
But I think that's such an important realization that not only am I not perfect,
I'm not meant to be perfect,
I will never be perfect.
You know,
It reminds me,
Yesterday we had a memorial for one of our friends in London and he was a beautiful,
Beautiful soul,
Really an amazingly giving and sharing person.
And I touched upon the point that,
You know,
In Kabbalistic terms there's a title,
It's called the tzaddik,
Or righteous person.
And I think often people think that being righteous means being perfect,
Right?
He does everything right all the time.
And I think,
Again,
Honestly,
If we look at,
We all know we don't do everything right all the time and you'll never find anybody,
Not even the most righteous elevated people.
What makes a person righteous is their desire to do good for others and to become better all the time.
And I think that's such an important point.
And you can only do that by recognizing when you could have done more and you didn't,
Right?
It's to be able to see where are the little areas that need improvement.
That's the only way to grow.
And we know this in every other area of our lives,
Right?
We know this,
You know,
If you're going to go to the gym,
You understand,
Right,
That you're going to start at one point and the goal is to get better and better.
And that requires constant effort and hard work focused on the thing that you want to change.
We apply it to everything,
To eating,
To everything,
Our jobs.
We don't apply it to our souls.
We don't apply it to our self in that deep,
Introspective way.
And I think what I would say to the listeners is that next time,
It's probably going to happen today to most of you or tomorrow.
Something's going to happen,
You're going to do something and then you're not going to want to either accept it or worse,
Forgive yourself for it.
Just remind yourself that that voice in my mind that wants to beat myself up for that mistake,
That's not you,
That's not your soul,
That's not your essence,
That's your ego.
And I'm not going to be foolish enough to give any energy to the ego.
I'm going to forgive myself completely.
I'm going to embrace whatever mistake I made knowing that it's part and a necessary,
Intrinsic part of my life's and soul's purpose.
And I'm going to grow from it.
I'm going to change from it.
But I'm not going to beat myself up.
I will forgive myself completely.
The next part,
As we said in the intro,
Is how do we forgive others?
But I do think it's true that if not coincidentally,
We began speaking about forgiving ourselves because unless we get better at forgiving ourselves,
We're never going to be able to take the next step in life,
Which is almost as important,
Really finding the way to forgive others.
And I think one of the questions that was emailed,
I think really raises and hopefully will give us the opportunity to really address how we can more fully forgive others for wrong that they have,
Or at least we perceive that they have done for us.
So Monica,
Maybe you can share that question.
Yes.
So this is from Daisy and she asks,
I was,
Well,
She states first,
I was brought up in a domestically abusive environment.
There was a great deal of emotional abuse and scarcity.
I can't seem to remove the internal victimizer that was my father's voice and is now my internal voice.
I see the world full of people who are,
Have loving,
Wonderful families and relationships.
Of course,
I'm focusing on the people who have so much and ignoring the fact that so many have so little,
The loneliness and hurt are so paralyzing.
I want to learn how to move beyond this and heal.
I'm turning 57 this week and I can't believe I lived my entire life in this condition.
All I've ever wanted was a feeling of connection with a loving family of friends.
Talk therapy doesn't seem to remove the blame and the anger.
I want to heal,
Feel better about myself and enjoy what's left of my life.
How do I do this?
I know this isn't simple,
But any insights would be greatly appreciated.
So before we answer the question directly,
I want to ask you something.
Ask me?
Yes.
All right.
Imagine that right now in your bank account,
You have 600- In our bank account?
Let's start over.
Okay,
Michael,
I want to ask you a question first.
Imagine that right now- We're not editing that out.
Give me that out.
We are.
We're not editing that out?
I think so.
No,
No,
No.
In your bank account,
We have $604,
800.
Now imagine that someone stole from you,
Let's say $20.
Are you with me?
Yep.
Would you spend all of your remaining money to chase down that person and hold them accountable?
No,
Of course not.
Why not?
It's such a small amount of money,
Certainly,
Objectively and certainly relative to the amount of money in our bank account.
604,
800 happens to be the number of seconds in a week.
Did you know that?
I didn't know that,
No.
Twenty seconds of a negative experience has the ability to stain the rest of the week if we let it.
Now,
We all have a tendency when someone says or does something hurtful to hold on to that pain to bring it into our minds over and over again.
Yet,
There's a powerful tool we all have at our disposal.
Do you know what that is?
Yeah,
We've been talking about it for the past half hour.
That's right.
Forgiveness.
So there's a beautiful exchange.
I don't think we saw this movie together,
But it's really,
This is my favorite part of the movie.
It's in the film The Light Between Oceans.
You recommend it?
I do.
It's kind of heavy,
But this one part that I'm going to share with you made the whole movie worthwhile.
Some of you might know I do not like heavy movies,
But okay.
Well,
I think they're important sometimes.
We can discuss that later.
But it illuminates forgiveness in a really powerful way.
So there's a scene where the man's wife asks him how he finds it so easy to live a happy life when he's endured much adversity,
Right?
Because it is a drama and so much pain.
And she says,
You've been through so much in your life,
Yet you're always happy.
How do you do it?
And his response was to forgive,
You only have to do it once.
To resent,
You have to do it all day,
Every day,
All the time.
You have to keep remembering the bad things.
It's just too much work.
Now not only is it too much work to keep resenting and holding anger,
It also keeps you from growing as we said,
And that's the whole point.
So I think that's the first step is just think how much energy,
Mental space to hold on to rethink over and over again.
That person did that to me.
That story of what happened to me when I was five,
And then it happened again with somebody else when I was 10.
And we carry that on,
And then we feel heavy,
And then we don't understand why we feel alone,
Or why we are alone,
Or why we are unhappy.
That's a very important point.
But I think that the one thing I would add to that is that we have to understand that it's human nature though,
To focus on the negative.
In the book Thinking Fast and Slow,
But Daniel Kahneman,
There's a very interesting anthropological reason given for this.
He says it is a scientific fact that human nature will remember one negative action or situation over five positive ones.
I know you've spoken about this as it pertains to relationships.
That if you have one negative interaction,
You have to have five positive ones to just make that one negative feeling go away.
To bring it back to equilibrium.
So we asked the question,
Which is,
Again,
Hopefully we'll have the opportunity to speak about relationships,
But that's such an important understanding for couples.
You can't have one negative interaction and then have one positive,
And your whole emotional thought about your relationship is positive.
That's not the way it works.
You literally have to overwhelm the negative with five positive interactions in order for you to sense equilibrium in your relationship.
So we already have a working against us,
Basically.
Well,
Our nature or what we would call our ego is working against us.
So he asked the question,
Daniel Kahneman,
He asked the question,
Why is it?
What's the original reason for it?
Now,
Kabbalistically,
We will talk about it.
So he says,
For instance,
That when we were cavemen and there were,
Let's say,
Three caves and you were looking for water and you walked into one and you found a bear and you ran out and saved your life.
And then you walked into the next one,
You found water.
Now it was much more important for your brain to remember the one cave that had the bear than the other two or three or five that had water.
Because if you don't find water in a cave,
You'll find it maybe in the next one.
But if you walk into the bear and you die,
You're never looking for water.
For survival.
For survival,
Our brain was set up in such a way where we focus on,
Remember the negative much more than the positive.
I often use this example in my lectures where if you go to a party and we've all experienced this,
Right?
And you were there for,
Let's say,
A three hour party or four hour party and it was amazing.
You had the best time,
The best food,
The best music.
And then one person walked over to you and for 10 seconds in there,
He gave you a nasty look or said a nasty word.
Driving home with your spouse in the car,
The one thing you're going to talk about is,
Did you see what he did to me?
I know,
I hate that.
But now first we have to accept that while it seems obviously stupid,
It is actually our nature and the way we naturally react to things.
Now,
Don O'Connellman gives the scientific reason or theory,
At least why it's like that.
But kabbalistically,
There's a reason for that as well.
We are meant to grow and we grow from the,
As we were talking earlier,
From the not negative interactions but the things that don't necessarily go our way.
So it actually is important for us to focus often on what we need to grow from,
What we need to change.
But forgiving others,
Like you said,
Not to take away from that beautiful quote,
That is one of the more important things we have to do in life.
But as we've all experienced,
It's really,
Really difficult.
So I think one of the important understandings or maybe shifts in consciousness,
And I think last time we touched on this as well,
That everything that happens to us needed to happen to us.
The person who did it could have been somebody else.
So if you really accept that what happened to you was necessary for your growth,
For your transformation,
For your soul's process,
Who did it becomes much less important.
And,
You know,
We've had,
I'd say at this point,
The opportunity in our life to have a number of people who objectively,
Right,
You know,
There's a time that we think somebody's doing harm to us or trying to do harm to us,
And it's not really the case.
But we've had in our life,
People who we know objectively,
Try to do us harm.
And I can say,
And again,
When I say harm,
Really bad things.
For a long time.
For a long time.
But in retrospect,
And I think often in the moment,
Really living this teaching,
Which is,
If this is happening to me,
Then what we call the light of the Creator,
That light,
That energy that surrounds us,
Knows that it's the best thing for me.
Even though it doesn't feel great at the time,
It might feel terrible at the time.
And again,
You have days where you're down,
And you're upset,
You know,
Because of what others are doing,
If they are doing to you.
But the first step I think is really accepting.
Everything happens by coincidence.
There is what we call the light of the Creator that has brought this into my life.
It happens to be this person who's chosen to behave badly towards me.
But the fact that they chose to be the conduit doesn't change the fact that I needed to experience.
So basically what we're saying is that their actions are on them,
Right?
We're not condoning bad behavior,
We're not condoning people taking advantage of us or abusing us or speaking ill of us.
That's all on them.
But then you're given the opportunity,
Because this is again,
How do you practice forgiveness,
To say,
Okay,
If this is coming in my life,
If this is in my movie,
I know it's there for a reason,
Because I don't believe in suffering,
I don't believe in things just happening,
Then there's a great opportunity for me to embrace this and learn something that my soul needs for my own growth and development.
We call it also Tikkun,
Which I think we can go into,
Which is correction,
It means correction.
And it means that when we find ourselves in these situations that really make us upset,
That brings something to our awareness,
Is an indication of something we need to work on.
I think though what is difficult for people,
And as you were speaking,
I started thinking,
You know,
How must people be hearing this and how does this apply to their own lives?
There will be people in your life that cause you harm and you may not want them to be part of your life anymore.
And that's okay.
There are other people that maybe were influenced or weren't strong enough to stand up for themselves or what they believe,
And they are part maybe of a group and they hurt you and you can still practice forgiveness,
But maybe you want to allow them in your lives,
Right?
That's up to you and at your discretion,
But there's still an opportunity to forgive.
I think where people get stuck is they feel that if they forgive someone who's hurt them,
Somehow they're allowing a behavior,
Right?
Maybe they're being taken advantage of.
What I think happens is we think that if we forgive,
We're going to allow them to do it to us again.
And to create a boundary,
You have to hold a grudge.
However,
What I want to say is that you can actually practice forgiveness and you can be really clear of what you're going to allow in your life again and what you're not.
They're not really the same thing.
And I think often we confuse that.
Absolutely.
I think,
Like you said,
It's often very important to actually decide who are the people that I will allow or won't allow in my life.
And that is completely separate from the decision who are the people that I'm going to forgive.
You should be able to forgive everybody,
But only allow those into your life that are having a positive impact.
But see,
I realized this because I was having a hard time forgiving one person who really wronged me.
And I had to ask myself the question.
You mind sharing the details?
You have to give names.
You don't have to.
No,
It was just he had a real thing for me and to really diminish me.
And I think that I often speak about this.
The one thing you can take from somebody,
Take away from them is their character.
Because if somebody says things about you and they steal your character in a sense,
Then that's what people believe.
And you might be given the opportunity to prove yourself or show them that you're something else or you might not.
But once some seeds have been planted,
It's tainted.
And you never really get that back.
So this person did it to me for over 20 years.
Unbeknownst to me,
I had no idea this was going on until I discovered it all,
All in one day almost.
But I realized I don't really care to have relationships with this person.
I don't really care for this person.
I don't wish them bad at all.
But I don't want.
.
.
They already took enough from me.
That was my feeling.
But yet I couldn't forgive.
So what I realized is,
From my viewpoint,
I don't think the person has really changed.
And therefore,
I realized I was not forgiving because that was my way of saying,
You can't do this to me.
That was my way of putting them at arm's length to protect myself.
So if I don't forgive,
It means they can never do it again,
Which isn't true.
They're not going to do it again because I'm not going to be in that situation again.
I have changed.
I have grown.
They're in a different place somewhere else.
We're not really in contact.
So now I can practice forgiveness.
I had that realization and I think that many people probably go through that too.
Let's say that they have a relative that's an alcoholic.
They can't change the alcoholism.
So how do you forgive them for their behavior while they still have the behavior?
Right.
And again,
Like you said,
You don't have to allow them into your life in ways that they can hurt you.
Right.
And I think.
.
.
And that's where your free will comes in.
That's where your choice comes in.
And once you realize that,
Then you actually are able to practice forgiveness.
Right.
And I think the other part to this,
When you realize,
As we said,
That nobody brings into your life something that for whatever reason,
Some that we can understand and some that we can't,
A situation that you needed to go through.
Right.
But separate from that,
Once it's in your life,
You have to learn from it.
I think,
Whatever the relationship is and whatever they've done,
Unless you learn the lesson,
It's going to come from somebody else again.
Right.
That's the Tikkun part.
Right.
So it's almost a three step process.
One,
You make a decision,
Do I want or do I not want this person in my life more?
If they're a family member,
If they're a friend.
That's one decision that's really separate from the other two.
And the only way you can make that really is to be kind to yourself.
And it's okay.
It's okay.
If you don't want to choose that you don't want them in your life for a year or two,
Then you can re-choose that.
Right.
So just give yourself that space to give yourself what you need.
And second,
And this is an easy process or a short process sometimes,
Especially if the hurt is large,
That accept and embrace that this situation,
The pain,
The difficulty created is actually something that you needed.
And by the way,
Honestly,
Back to the situation with me,
I think that's what saved me from becoming bitter about it and holding onto resentment because every step of the way,
I mean,
We used to have these conversations all the time and there was a lot of pain at the time,
A lot.
And we always would turn to each other and say,
We trust the creator,
Whatever is meant to be will be,
And this must be happening for a reason.
And eventually we discovered the reasons,
But this person also had such a thing against me that I couldn't even speak publicly.
So that's why I started writing.
I've written books now.
I probably wouldn't have even done that if someone wasn't saying you can't do it.
You're not whatever the dialogue was.
So to find the silver lining,
There is always one.
But I think again,
For me,
And we often have this back and forth,
I think there's two ways to embrace the pain or the hurt or the damage done to us.
One is consciously,
Logically say,
Oh,
Well,
I realize five years later,
10 years later,
20 years later,
That because I had to go through that pain,
I made me a better person in this way.
I manifested this or I manifested that.
I moved here or I moved there.
And second,
Which is very powerful,
I often use this one is really surrender.
I trust.
I trust that nothing happens by coincidence.
I trust that this situation that I am in,
Although it seems unfair and I really don't like that this person did it and I can see the benefit today from it.
But I trust and I embrace the good that must come from it either now or in the future,
Or maybe I'll never even see it,
But it happened.
And I think both of those are positive ways to embrace that external damage or pain that caused by others,
Either because I can see how it made me a better person,
How it made me grow,
Or I embrace the fact that I can see it right now,
But I trust the system and I trust the creator that it's coming to my life.
And eventually,
Sometimes even in ways that I can't even tell has made me a better person.
There's an interesting story about the biblical King David.
Some of you might know about this story.
He was a very known,
Successful,
Elevated soul.
He started off life in the opposite way.
He was viewed with disdain by all of his brothers,
And he was literally treated like a slave by his family.
Growing up,
He was completely mistreated until he was chosen as Samuel,
The biblical prophet,
To become the next king of Israel.
And I saw a very important teaching from one of the sages,
And he says that the reason why King David had to go through all those years of pain wasn't because he deserved it at the time,
But because had his ego not been bashed for those early years in life,
He would have not been able to handle becoming king,
And his ego would have overtaken him,
And he would never have been a successful king.
And so in that case,
What do we learn?
King David could have done two things in those years of pain.
Why am I brothers treating me this way?
It's not fair,
It's not right.
And he was right that it was not fair at the time,
Or logical,
Certainly not right for his brothers to mistreat him,
But in the big scheme of his life,
He needed those years of ego bashing so that when he became king,
His ego would not overtake him,
And he would not have been a terrible,
Negative king.
So again,
I think in life,
Like we said,
There's the embracing pain caused by others,
Either in ways that we can logically accept now,
Or it just changes us in ways that we can't even tell,
But make us a better person.
And just the third point,
Right,
So if the first step is really making a decision,
Do I want this person,
Do I want to allow this person in my life?
Second is really embracing the pain that they have caused me,
Embracing what it has done for me.
And then third,
Making sure I learn the lesson from it,
Because often there are lessons to be learned by what the pain or the hurt that others have caused us.
And often in life,
If we don't learn that lesson,
We're bound to repeat them.
So I think as we go through the process of forgiveness for what others have done for us,
I think it's important really to think about these three stages separately.
Again,
Do I choose to allow this person further in my life?
Yes or no?
Objective decision that has nothing to do with the next two steps.
Next step,
I accept that whatever hurt has come into my life is ultimately going to benefit me.
And third,
What are the lessons that I can and should learn so that I don't have to necessarily go through similar hurt or pain in my life?
You know,
I think another thing is that often people wait to forgive until somebody apologizes to them.
And I think it's really important that when we expect those who have wronged us,
Like an abuser,
To think that they're actually capable of asking forgiveness is interesting.
Because if you think about this logically,
They don't necessarily have those characteristics to be able to do that.
If they really hurt,
Like we're talking about people who cause extreme pain,
They have the ability to do that.
Do they really,
Unless they go through a process of a lot of repentance and their own internal work,
To be able to say I'm really,
To own what they've done to you.
So we can't wait for an apology because in some cases it's never going to come.
I wrote about this in my book,
Fears on an Option,
That nearly every time someone hurts you,
They lash out at you,
Whether they make you feel insecure,
It's a manifestation of their own pain.
It has very little to do with you other than you happen to be in their proximity.
Everyone's fighting their own battles and conflicts will arise.
People will be hurtful or nasty,
And yes,
It's going to hurt.
But just remember,
It's really not about you,
It's about them.
And of course we can learn something from every experience and correct part of our nature,
But you don't need to accept their judgment or blame as fact.
And I think that that's also where we get stuck.
We think that,
Oh,
Because they said this or they did this or they convinced 30 people to think this too,
Then they must be right,
Even if we know it's not necessarily true.
And then of course we get stuck in the blame and the hurt and we stay there.
And then resentment builds and then we find it almost impossible to forgive once we get to that space.
That's very important.
And I was thinking in the question,
And I hope that some of what we're sharing really helps you let go of both the hurt that your father has caused you,
But that you keep living that,
Like Monica said,
At the end of the day,
One of the most powerful ways to let go,
To forgive,
Is when we take that hurt and share in a positive way with others.
And I've had the opportunity over the years to speak with people who've been severely hurt by others.
And while we never have the ego to think that we can understand the complete reason why it happened,
One of the reasons is it makes us a more compassionate person.
And I've often asked those who come to me with real deep pain and hurt caused by terrible actions of sometimes family members or others to them,
Is one of the ways to heal is to use your pain to help somebody else.
Because the reality is that others have,
I promise you,
Countless others have experienced the pain that you experienced.
Find a way to use that pain and the compassion for others going through that experience and find a way to share with one other person who's experienced what you've experienced.
And I promise you that if you find a way to use the compassion awakened by your hurt to help somebody else in the same situation or a similar situation that you've gone through,
It will help you both to forgive and to let go of the darkness created by that pain.
Can you think of a time where you did that?
I think forgiving,
As I think for most of us,
It's a process.
But whenever I forgive somebody,
I always try to learn.
I'll use an example,
For instance.
Like I said,
There have been a few people in our lives that went out of their way to do harm.
And there's a teaching from the Baal Shem Tov who says,
Everything that we see and experience is there to be a mirror to us.
Now it doesn't mean,
So for instance,
One of his students asked,
What if you read about a murderer or you see a murderer?
Does that mean that you're a murderer?
You know you're not a murderer.
So what do you mean that everything that we see is in some way a mirror to us?
But well,
The sages tell us that when you embarrass somebody in public,
For instance,
It's like murdering them.
It's an aspect of murder.
So whenever I've felt the hurt and gone through my internal process of forgiveness,
I say,
Well,
I do the same thing,
Hopefully not to the degree that they do it,
Pretty sure not to the degree that they do it,
But I must be doing aspects of that in my life.
Think about it.
Today,
Yesterday,
Last week,
Last month,
Did I embarrass somebody,
For instance?
Did I allow somebody to be embarrassed?
Did I behave in the ways that they have damaged me?
And I know for myself,
I do not complete the process of forgiveness unless I also find an aspect again,
Not 100% of that that I do,
But an aspect of it that I know that I do and hopefully learn from that and change from that.
So we've spoken about and hopefully we've given some insight into how we can both forgive ourselves,
Which is probably the most important aspect of forgiveness,
And then forgiving others.
So I wanted to share a story about self-forgiveness that hopefully will open all of our eyes to both appreciate the process of self-forgiveness,
But also as we forgive other people.
Well,
It's not,
I mean,
Even though I talk about my personal experiences a lot,
And I think that's probably why I do it from any pain that I have gone through,
By sharing it,
It actually alleviates some of it,
But I also feel that it inspires people hopefully to be able to have the courage to do the same in their own lives.
But this is a story of Maya Angelou,
And if you,
Are you familiar with her childhood?
Oh,
Her childhood.
So I thought it was so interesting when I came across it,
When she was five,
She was raped and she was repeatedly raped,
And she finally spoke up and told her mother about it.
And the day that she told on him,
He died.
It wasn't connected,
But he died.
So in her mind,
Because she was so young,
She thought that her words killed him.
So she didn't speak for another five years,
Did not speak.
But what she did in those years is she read avidly,
Everything,
Poetry,
Every kind of book.
And then when she finally decided that she could speak again and understood that she wasn't going to kill anybody through words,
She used her words as the most powerful motivator for people for decades,
Right?
And all through that five years of not speaking,
Right,
She just soaked everything in.
But I think that that for me,
Is an example really of all the things we talked about,
Right?
It's self forgiveness,
It's understanding that everything happens for a reason,
It's using the bad things that happened to us.
And being able to forgive that and see that it was something necessary for our growth and our transformation.
I think it's such a powerful example.
That's beautiful.
And like you said,
I think maybe this is a very practical tool that we can share with all of our listeners that I know for myself,
And I know for you as well,
That when you take the opportunity to share your experience in a constructive way with others,
That also helps you in the process of forgiveness.
So I would strongly recommend and again,
Be thoughtful about who you share this with.
We've all had experiences where we need to forgive ourselves and we need to forgive others.
Use three people,
Maybe three people who you know,
Are having their own issues with either self forgiveness or forgiving others,
And share your experience how you grew from the pain that others caused you and how you were able therefore to forgive them.
And I'm telling you that you will experience a greater ability to forgive yourself,
A greater ability to let go and forgive others by sharing your experience with those who need it.
And by the way,
The conversation realistically is going to sound like this.
I mean,
If you find a trusted friend,
You go to them and say,
You know,
I really still hate this person maybe,
Or I'm really angry at them and I really don't.
I want to be mad still.
But if I'm being honest,
I can see that X,
Y and Z was my part in it,
Or this is what I can learn from it.
Right.
So be real and it's not going to be all roses at first beat really real about what you're feeling with the understanding at the same time of where you ultimately want to arrive.
So just ask yourself,
What pain are you holding onto?
That's it.
Start there.
And then from that the dialogue starts.
This is about a shift in consciousness and from there everything will flow.
So thank you all for listening.
We hope that some,
If not all of what we said,
Will enable you to more and more forgive yourself and more and more forgive others.
We hope you enjoyed this almost hour as much as we did.
And please keep on sending your questions to Monica and Michael at kabala.
Com.
We will get to them over the next number of weeks.
And most importantly,
We hope that something of what you heard today is something you can share with others and something that brings light and forgiveness into your life.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you.
