Love Is Love With Father Carel

30:32

30:32

Love Is Love With Father Carel

by Rev. Dr. Cindy Paulos Msc.D

Rated

4.8

Type

talks

Activity

Meditation

Suitable for

Everyone

Plays

48

I talk with Dr. Father Carel-Piet van Eeden Ph.D., D.Emed, who is a gay priest with White Robed Monks in South Africa about the Pope's recent endorsement of civil unions. We discuss how various beliefs and judgements can be overcome with understanding and love so we can find peace in ourself and each other.

Meet your Teacher

Rev. Dr. Cindy Paulos Msc.D

Kahului, HI, USA

Meet your Teacher

Rev. Dr. Cindy Paulos Msc.D

Kahului, HI, USA

Transcript

I have a beloved friend who I've only talked to in person once before and is part of the peace project. Father Correll and I hope I'm pronouncing it right because we've never spoken before I've only seen your name on Facebook is it Correll? Correll. Correll. Correll P. Van Eden? Van Eden. It's a very Dutch name. Very Dutch. Very Dutch. We're in South Africa and we've connected in so many beautiful ways. You did a mass from my sister when she passed away and you did the mass in August. She passed away July 29th and it was so beautiful and so touching and we made a deep connection because I was writing words that I know were coming from her and you wrote this heavenly music that just touched my soul in such a way it still does and we're working on putting out a CD together but we hardly ever talk in person so what a blessing to have you here and one of the reasons I thought we had to have a chat is to try to understand how we find peace and understanding with each other when we have very different beliefs as peoples around the world. I posted this one post which I thought was a no-brainer because we're part of a metaphysical group. I mean you are and it's a very wonderful group that embraces all religions. You follow a path, Many paths actually. You're a priest but you also have done Zen and you're a healer and you work in many avenues and you're very, Very embracing of God's many ways of serving so I posted this about the pope. It says Pope Francis endorses same-sex civil unions for the first time as pontiff and I put yeah what a great courageous step. I happen to love Pope Francis. I just think he's wonderful and I was really surprised at some people's fears that came out in in terms of judgments that were kind of shocking you know and then I realized okay I've got to look at this deeper. I've got to try to understand what's really going on here. For me it was like a wonderful thing to celebrate but to some people it brought out deep fear so can you express about first of all about the civil unions also in South Africa and in some parts of Africa how civil unions are viewed. Okay so in South Africa we are very blessed that civil unions have been legal for almost 10 years now and it was a long path to to walk and to get there but we are quite proud of our constitution which says that you are not allowed to judge somebody on their sexuality on their religion. Our constitution I think is one of the strongest in the world currently and one of the most beautifully written ones and recently we had the law was updated now the Civil Union Act so that people could not refuse on basis of their own religious beliefs. So what was happening was all over at our department of home affairs people would say no we won't do it or they would put off a registration of a civil union for up to a year and that is now if you're a civil servant you are not allowed to do that anymore. So it's a beautiful thing and a beautiful step forward. In Africa we are not as blessed in all of the the other countries. We in the discussion that we had we spoke on specific countries and in Africa there are still countries where being gay has the death penalty linked to it. Now that shocked me you told me that in a chat and I was like death penalty seriously and that I don't think most people in the world probably would know that fact. Now I've heard about this in some places in Arab or Arab Emirates that there's some of those similar rules that still stand I believe. Yes that's true so it's only a handful of countries but they are they and it's interesting I've been a part of this movement for for a while now and not always active but just seeing what is happening and how people were you would have to smuggle them out of their country so that the families wouldn't know where they are in order to keep them safe. Wow. So yeah it's been it's an interesting journey and it's not something that a lot of people think about. No because you know we tend to all think it's like the people that are our friends and I've been I performed many many probably over a hundred civil unions first when that was only legal and then gay marriages when those were allowed and I had some amazing beautiful stories but I actually did a piece a spoken word piece about this on a rise above abuse about a couple getting married on the beach and they were from England and they're so beautiful but this one woman had like literally maybe only a year left to live and she had to travel from England to and she had a catheter on her arm and and her dream was to get married you know on Maui on the beach and walking out to the site there were some I don't know it sounds judgmental but kind of rednecks you know making nasty comments you know saying this is this terrible how can you do this and I was taken aback like how could they judge these two beautiful women this was their dream and then they're making comments so they could be heard and all I could see was the deep love that they had for each other and this at this point this was quite a few years ago so she's probably already passed on but that was one of the first times I'd seen it now you have been gay for a while and you must have experienced some of these harsh words and judgments in your life which again even as a minister performing a ceremony it's not the same for me as someone who has chosen to express their love in a way that some other people think is wrong but I see God is very accepting of this so what have you experienced so it's an interesting thing when we say chose this this expression and I think that is it was chosen on a on a soul level before you were born and it is an interesting journey it is not one that I would have chosen myself if I had known that the journeys that that would have gone out but also it was very formative one of the the worst things that that I can remember is because I didn't do sports at school I'm from a very African proud sporting community very Protestant community but I can remember having my head shoved into a urinal because I was a musician. They shoved your head into a urinal because you were a musician? And didn't do sports and was soft-spoken and yeah so. How old were you when that happened? Wow so how did you how did you feel? At that time it was not fun of course and then you forget about it you kind of just bury everything in deep layers. I am I went to a psychologist many years later after a an armed robbery and he said that you've been blessed with resilience so take the lesson and move on from it and and I think I can do that because of the those experiences growing up where you would learn what what you needed to learn ask the question why did this happen not why did this happen to me but in the sense of what can I learn from this and how can I better myself so one of the lessons that I learned they or one of the experiences out of that is I started doing martial arts as an adult. So and you still do now I still do I actually teach Aikido and it's the art of spiritual harmony it still fits in beautifully with what I believe in on a spiritual level and if I were to be attacked I know that I can have a level of defense. Now how since we're talking about how peace is involved in all this how did you come to terms with peace was there having to be a process of forgiveness sounds like you came to understanding you said you were able to move on but was that at a place where you could make peace with it. It came very gradual yes after leaving school I did date a girl and we were going to get married and I I think a lot of people can can understand the feeling of you know you'll you'll wait till your parents pass away because you don't want to be a burden on them or disappoint them and then at some stage I think I was about 22 friends of mine decided for me that you need to accept yourself and go tell your parents so yeah. That must have been very difficult must have taken a lot of courage. It was challenging but I am extremely blessed to have two beautiful parents sat them down we had a chat and five minutes later they said you know let's go and check our new workshop let's yeah so and that was it. And it wasn't what you feared it might be. Not at all not at all it was actually quite a beautiful journey. Wow that that's that's wonderful. How did you come to be a priest? I've always wanted to be involved with healing and the spiritual side of healing was a big calling so I've been doing courses like Reiki and and core regeneration and other things as much knowledge as possible. I'm a bit of a knowledge addict and I came to the University of Metaphysics and where I met the most beautiful people became a minister and got my PhD and I wanted to start doing weddings here in South Africa or civil unions at that time. The only way to do that would have been to join a one of the larger religions so metaphysics didn't count as a religion for for our department of home affairs and they said that you also have to have a church based in South Africa. Oh. Which originated in South Africa so I said to them it's interesting because what are you going to tell the pope because Catholicism does not originate in South Africa. So we had an interesting discussion and they allowed me they said but you have to have a congregation and you have to have a bigger body and then I chanced upon the white rope monks of St. Benedict. One night I was just late to go onto the internet and search for a community and I met with my bishop here in South Africa and the the chancellor and the abbot in America and I was enrolled in the program. So the rest has been just studying and learning about Catholicism. I said earlier that I grew up in a Protestant community and it's beautiful just to have the other forms of ritual and the saints and learning about them and seeing that not from a traditionally Catholic point of view and seeing it from a an old Catholic or the Dutch Catholic point of view. So our journey is quite different to the the Roman Catholic Church. We still believe in all the people from Antioch Jerusalem Rome Constantinople so all the patriarchs we honor them as well as the pope so we see all six of them equal and then we are what we call independent Catholics. We have two rules in our community the first is the rule of St. Benedict because we are a monastic order and the rule of St. Benedict is listen. That is the first word of St. Benedict's rule and that is what we are taught to do as priests is to listen not to try and give advice but just to be there and let things unfold for people. Then the second rule that we believe in very strongly is that Jesus never said no to anybody. That's very interesting I have never heard that before that's fascinating. And if you believe that then what we do becomes makes much more sense so we offer the sacraments to anybody who asks for them. If you are Catholic or not if you are Christian or not and that opens up our ministry a lot to people who have been ostracized by the churches people who have been divorced and stolen to get married again. Also interfaith religion or weddings we are allowed to perform them either in a Catholic way or in a spiritual way or in Christian or in a mixed way and to me again with the studies that we have done at the University of Metaphysics it fits in and it jolts beautifully so I am allowed to have a husband or a wife or a partner who is not Christian necessarily. And do they accept that and how does the community accept it and how do you feel being in a community like this which sounds very open and very accepting but again this is not what you'd normally even believe would be possible so how did that work out for you? Well I mean when I introduced my partner to the bishop and to the rest of the community everybody was happy and the big thing is that we want to spread the message of unconditional love and that is what I believe that we are meant to do as Christians because that is the energy of the Christ consciousness. I totally agree. So when you saw this post going back to the Pope what was your impression because you know and I guess it was just reinforced by what I saw how some people reacted I don't think we as lay people can understand what a position the Pope is really in between those who want to hold on to the old way of thinking and the very conservative people versus the way he's living he's not living the way other Popes have lived and he's taken some bold steps but it has put him in a situation where people are getting upset so what was your first thought when you saw that post? Well it's another word I thought it was a ballsy move because of the fact that it would garner a lot of people's anger and resistance to the decision and the post that you made I loved it it was my words were also kind of you know finally yeah and even from the start of the Pope's reign the name that he chose was very specific and we knew then already that he is going to come and bring in a lot of change and yes yes and he has done that maybe not as fast as a lot of people would have wanted but also I think it is at the best pace that he could or can at the moment you can't change a society overnight and societal views overnight. So I think some people were very unforgiving and very angry at the church still because the pedophilia and of course you know I don't know if they know the history of how he's trying to address this and how he's made it something that has to be addressed but obviously some people seem to not being able to forgive that so you have that on one side versus the people on the other side that are really angry that he would allow even the term civil union to be brought up and even accepting accepted so what a what a path he must be walking on trying to heal the anger and I have to say I'd love to see women as priests I'd love to see women able to perform more in the church and that hasn't come about yet you know but but I understand that this takes time I think for some people they just can't get past the anger they have if we take that part away from the civil unions that part of the pedophiles and the fact that so much was hidden for a long time that's a huge huge thing that the church and a lot of people have left the Catholic Church because of this. Yes definitely just on the the woman priesthood our order does ordain women into the Maybe I'll be coming to South Africa I will introduce you to the the abbot in the States because the order is is it's a worldwide order Wow Amazing It is it is wonderful I mean we were created equal and in the discussions that we had on that post specifically some of the comments were made on the balance between male and female and women needing to know their place and to me that's a very very very patriarchal point of view and we're learning more and more as we study the bible as we study the new books and the new gospels that are coming out that are being translated so beautifully I mean I was just reading a study on the gospel of Mary Magdalene and where women are equal on a spiritual level so if that is true then then how can we still stick to this idea of the woman needs to be at home and she needs to do her work the homework and wait for the husband to bring home money or whatever to bring home the food it doesn't work that way in a modern society and I think for 2 000 years we were forced into that point into that that thought process and it was a process of control and of dominance in trying to subdue strong thinkers I totally agree and I think that goes back maybe even to a division at the beginning of the religion of the church you know there was you know both Mary Magdalene and Mother Mary were not allowed to participate in the ways that I would have liked to participate because they were so so beautiful but there there was the control issue starting right back then of course and Peter and the others had their own ways of dealing with it and a lot came from that but I don't believe that was the way it was in Jesus's eyes I think Jesus Christ you know really embraced both and obviously he did because he embraced Mary Magdalene and also he embraced his mother and recognized who they were we only have about five six minutes left I can't believe we need something we're gonna have to do another talk we are we're gonna have to have another talk dealing with the issues that were kind of shocking about some of the there was just a few but a couple of the people made posts about how the bible doesn't endorse any they want man and woman to be married they don't want a man and man to be together this is one of the things you've probably heard for a long time this is one of those always goes back to that this isn't a new statement how how do you respond to the people who go back to the bible and say this read the bible there's been many books written on this on on how to refute that but again for me I go back to the idea of the message of Jesus was unconditional love and if that love is between two people who are of the same sex who are intersex I mean we haven't even started talking about people who are transitioning and one of these things but love is love and and that is what Jesus came to teach everything else is just extra rules that man has put on onto the original message and that's my answer to to everybody I think that is is the answer making peace how do you encourage people to make peace with these changes in the church with the changes that they don't understand yet I'm hoping by hearing your story that might make a little difference because behind each beautiful story like your story and so many others I've seen there's such love and and I'm hoping any kind of pre-judgment can start to melt away but how would you see the church and you and others who have these very extreme opposite views coming to peace with it the thing for me is you need to make peace with yourself because most of even in that discussion that we had it started off it's man and woman when you refute that no but it's not natural when you refute that and say and bring the proof that it's in nature then another excuse and another excuse and slowly slowly and what it came down to in the end was I don't like somebody of the same sex hitting on me and I don't even like another man to touch me someone said yeah I was like wow something happened there right that is exactly and that's the comment that I'm referring to I don't like people hitting on me either and and that was what it burnt down to it was a personal prejudice that was fueled by a societal view and bit by bit it was the most beautiful discussion for me and I hope it sparked some thought in some of the people who were heavily opposed to the post and I remember some of the posts were even removed because of the swearing that was going on I didn't see one of the ones that was removed before it was removed but I could see the one before which even with that was intense and it's like yeah oh and this is this is these are people who are you know spiritually involved people so it's so good that we can delve into that shadow self that we and many people have in fact some studies have been done that people who don't like homosexuals most actually get excited if they see homosexuals they want to turn it down but I won't go that's another whole discussion but yeah but but you know if we delve into that part that deep shadow self and things that nowadays a lot of people don't say because they're afraid of being judged we can now say okay this is this is out there we've got to make peace in ourselves yes and we've got to love ourselves and our shadow selves and our fears that is so important yeah as the acceptance of the shadow and not judging it and accepting it as part of you you know we're not just light beings we are beings and the expression of God is not always light the expression of God is always in the light and the dark because point very good God is everything very good point then that takes that division away yes wow and as we're seeing more people becoming at peace with these thoughts and accepting it should bring the world together but I think it actually for the people who haven't accepted it's making them more upset and more angry maybe more withdrawn because they're not able to talk about it or face it but they actually I think it's fueled in some ways the fire as this has become out in the public more accepting it's definitely here in Hawaii you know and I don't know about the midwest yet I haven't been there ever but but there is this other side and we're seeing this division across America right now this conservative liberal name calling anger you know and to the point where it's almost like wow look at what's happening here you know the two ways of thinking needing to come to terms and make peace together to unite everyone yeah we have here in in some of the communities what they call corrective rape we corrective rape yes where they would rape lesbian to show to her what it is like to be with a real man because that's both processes that are here that lesbian has just not met a proper man yet and that is fueled by again the patriarchal view of the man that needs to be in control in charge of everything and it is a a a tribal thing of dominance and in in the tribes you see the most beautiful interactions between people but then the fear comes and it spills over into something as as horrendous as a corrective rape and it takes so much I was abused when I was young I was raped when I was young I completely closed it off I didn't even go and until I was in communion with mother Mary and then I was able to discover all these things that I had buried and could see the domino effect of what happens when this happens and one in five women are in domestic violence situations and I know in many countries that you've been higher than that you know there's there's rape actually one in five and domestic violence one four here but we're gonna have to talk again this is we're definitely we're gonna schedule another talk because this is really a powerful subject and I'm hoping as we're talking people can find the caring and the love behind your words you are such a beautiful loving individual and such an inspiration to me in so many ways if people I can't wait for people to hear the music you've created which touches my heart so deeply it's it is heavenly truly the music you're creating is heavenly and you're working there so diligently with the community and doing amazing work and it's just an honor to be able to have an open discussion on this and I'm hoping people can really look into their own hearts and into their own souls and also into the part of them that holds fear and find peace and make peace and understanding and love all of themselves and because love is the answer true true and the honor is mine thank you so much god bless you god bless you too and much aloha from Maui until the next time peace from here. You