Whispers Across The Veil: Haunted History Of Invisible Women

You're listening to Women's Dream Enlightenment.

Dream decoding,

Deep discussions,

And spiritual stories of self-discovery to inspire your personal enlightened journey.

I'm your host,

Megan Mary,

Founder of Women's Dream Analysis.

Let's bring in the light.

Welcome.

And today we have a very special episode for you for Friday the 13th.

I have a very special guest.

And today I have with me Leanna Renee Heber.

She is an actress,

Ghost tour guide,

And award winning author.

Welcome Leanna.

Hi,

Thanks for having me here with you.

Yes.

And I am so glad to have discovered your book,

A Haunted History of Invisible Women,

True Stories of America's Ghosts.

Thank you.

Yes.

Yes.

This book has been such a labor of love.

It's coauthored with Andrea Janes,

Who founded New York's premier ghost tour company Burrows the Dead 10 years ago this year.

And I was her first employee.

So when an editor came on to one of my ghost tours and said,

You know,

I love your fiction,

Leanna,

But you really need to think about doing a book of real ghost stories.

I thought,

Oh,

Well,

That's great.

Let me bring in my boss into this because the way I approach giving a ghost tour is very much informed by a very mutual exploration of ghosts and history that Andrea and I are very passionate about.

Our core mission is respect for the dead,

First and foremost,

And everything else,

All the uncanny things,

All of that is secondary because respect for the dead is first and foremost.

So that in line with a book about women's history,

Which,

As we know,

Has women has been fraught and has often been violent.

The reason this book was created was because of this interest from this editor,

Which was merged with interest for Andrea's women's focused ghost tours.

And so this book really came out of that,

A mixture of just editors and authors at the right time looking and seeing if anyone had actually addressed women's history issues and ghost lore together.

And no one had done sort of a feminist examination of ghost stories from the perspective of the women who then became ghosts.

So we just realized that there were so many misconceptions about some really famous ghosts and then a whole bunch of things about not famous ghosts that we discovered along our journey.

And so I'm excited to share some of that with you and what the very interesting paths that happen when you,

As the spiritualist would say,

Let the spirits move.

Yes,

Yes.

I was so excited to see the compilation of all the stories that,

Of course,

Many of us have heard over the years and knew a little bit about the myths,

But I just loved the aspect of it,

Putting it all together.

And I also loved your introduction.

There were so many things in there that you said that really resonated with me.

One of them was your lifelong quest to examine whispers across the veil.

And if that doesn't define me,

I don't know what does.

So I was like,

Oh yes,

Highlighting,

Highlighting.

Thank you.

Yes.

And so I really appreciate that.

A lot of people know that listen to my show,

That I take a very spiritual take upon life and that I have always been fascinated with the mystical realm and things that are unseen.

And particularly Halloween,

Of course,

Was my ultimate favorite time of the year,

Favorite holiday.

And it was because I knew that that was the one day that the veil was finished.

And that that was the day that everyone else kind of would acknowledge that the rest of the year.

They don't want to hear about that.

They don't want to think about spirits around us.

They don't want to think about us being spirits.

They don't want to think about the ability to communicate with them or any of that because it's destabilizing.

They'll just entertain it that one time of year.

And I really just wanted that day to be every day.

So.

Right.

Right.

I mean,

It's one of the reasons why I was so drawn to goth.

I've been a goth since I was a teenager because that was a space where I could bring these aspects into conversation and no one would be as surprised as they were if I wasn't kind of letting you know right off the bat,

Hi,

I like to talk about things that people would consider spooky.

And I want to normalize that.

And that's kind of one of the great things about goth as a subculture is it really has allowed for there to be conversation.

And so like this visual cue in some ways has opened doors that that not dressing all in black might be more surprising for folks,

Which has been an interesting aspect of of of this work.

And then when you mention that you're a ghost tour guide,

No one is surprised by you talking about spirits.

But you kind of like you're saying,

There has to be sort of this caveat almost every time there has to be something that allows for that door to be open because it still isn't OK in average everyday conversation.

It's we're still this country is really difficult with its discussion of death.

And yes,

We're making progress.

Things like the order of the good death and death positivity as a movement is making strides on being able to talk about these things.

But then when you start actually talking about ghosts,

People are either afraid or they want to be entertained or both.

They want to be scared and entertained.

But what about actually the positive ghost stories?

What about the ghost stories of your loved ones that when they appear to you,

You are comforted by them?

That's the stuff that gets to me.

That was my first ghost story when I was six years old,

The ghost of my great grandmother who I'm named for.

She came to me,

Spoke through me at the time of her passing when she was hundreds of miles away.

So I went into a rhapsodic ode,

A trance using words I'd never been taught.

And I'd had a horrible fever and my fever broke as I went into this kind of state.

And that was the time that my great grandmother had passed.

So this is one of those things where this work shows me and I've just been trying to honor it ever since.

It's definitely been a meandering path as working with spirit.

I know you know this as working with spirit at all is always a wandering path.

And sometimes we've fought it along the way.

How much I want to be open to it or not,

That really depends.

Everybody will come into it at their own time if they want to.

And the other thing that you said in your introduction that I liked was they are of us and we all may someday become them.

And that's really,

I think the part of talking about that,

That people don't want to accept.

And I have always been,

I don't know if it's because I'm a Scorpio or an introvert or what it is,

But I've always been just like asking those big existential questions,

Loving to have those deep,

Dark discussions,

Loving to delve into the things that a lot of people don't want to talk about.

And I pretty much live in that shadow inner world.

That's where I dwell.

Yeah.

As a Cancer,

I really feel you.

So yeah,

As a Cancer right on the cusp of Gemini.

I'm on the cusp of Sagittarius.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There you go.

Yeah.

You mentioned my favorite two words,

Existential questions.

So that's actually mentioning my introduction,

The title of my introduction.

I know.

There's no coincidence.

And it's,

And it really is like that for me has been my animating force since I can remember.

Yep.

It's,

There are those things.

And I really feel like working in the edges of what would be considered the paranormal is the way in which we can actually continue to have these kinds of discussions rather than it just being a philosophical prompt.

What if it's actually a human prompt and what if we actually use real people to talk about it?

Yes.

Yes.

So in your,

I love to hear about how your ghost tours are really so unique from other ghost tours and how that really led to this book.

So talk a little bit about how,

When you do the ghost tours and tell the stories of the women,

How it's different.

Honestly,

The company was founded because Andrea had been taking some other ghost tours around the country and just noticed how sloppy people's history was about things that are easily verifiable.

And and she sort of asked the question,

Why,

Why are people less concerned about the facts when it's a ghost tour?

The history is still the history.

And if you're not really sharing the actual history,

Why are you even talking about it at all?

It's easy to know when the date of this building is it's it's in public record.

So there's a lot about the ghost tours that we tried.

We just try to make sure people have real facts and and rather than just discuss hearsay,

We really wanted to try to find the most sort of literary paper trail we could find about a given ghost.

There's a lot of historic ghost stories that have been frequently picked up in historic texts.

And so for us,

Sort of the more the more we could find that had been put out into print about a certain place,

Then we thought,

All right,

There's something to this.

And of course,

You know,

Stories would vary and sometimes it would be a sort of game of telephone that you could definitely see,

Oh,

Well,

This person is picking up on these things.

But if we could get if we could try to get to the source text,

Then we could really talk about someone's personal experiences.

In the case of the one building that is the most harrowing chapter I wrote called an unreliable narrator about Jan Bryant Bartell living in 14 West 10th Street,

Which is Manhattan's most haunted house.

She wrote a book about living in that address.

And that kind of firsthand experience,

Which is which was written seven six years before a very violent murder took place in that building.

Kind of like a real life shining.

Those kinds of things where where it starts to not be coincidences.

So you you you put those things forward and say this person wrote about this building being messed up.

And then later,

This person comes into this building and and murders a little girl.

And people say he changed when he moved in that building.

Those to us,

It's like that's not necessarily hearsay.

That's some other thing where it goes beyond a coincidence,

Because Jan Bryant Bartell,

When she wrote Spindrift,

Could never have predicted what was going to happen after she passed away after finishing that book,

Just,

You know,

These uncanny things.

So we're we're trying to find the spaces where history juts up against stuff that's wondrous and strange without without making things salacious.

We are very interested in,

Again,

First and foremost,

Respect for the dead.

That's the core mission.

Because if we make a spectacle out of that murder,

Then we are we are just complicit in recycling trauma.

And I'm not interested in doing that.

And people ask,

Will you go into haunted asylums or haunted prisons and things like that?

And I'm like,

I don't personally have an interest in going into those spaces that are full of of energetic misery,

Personally,

As a bit of an energy sensitive myself.

I'm very careful about what kind of spaces I will allow myself to be put into.

I can I can get a read on a building from outside of it.

I don't necessarily need to go in.

I will research it.

I will learn its history.

I'm not a paranormal investigator.

I'm not interested in the ghost hunt.

I don't actually like the term ghost hunt.

That sounds very it sounds cruel.

And it's also not respecting that those are people who we don't hunt people.

So the language even of some of the stuff around the ghost tour industry is very disrespectful to the dead.

So we're very careful about letting people have fun and letting people enjoy a fall atmosphere and allowing for there to be the atmospheric tingles.

But and we want people to feel in the mood of these various spaces and and delight in the uncanny nature of some of these things.

But when it comes to the stuff that's actual trauma,

We're very serious about that.

So when it when it came to talking about women's history with this,

The same rules that apply of like,

Wow,

There's a lot of trauma here to unpack.

But we also were interested in the ways in which some of the ghosts end up being kind of defying stereotypes by the way in which their ghosts have perpetuated through through the years.

I really love that Gertrude Treadwell,

Who is one of our one of Andrea and my favorite ghosts.

She haunts the Merchant's House in on Fourth Street in Manhattan.

And she was a spinster her whole life,

Lived 93 years in the same house.

Ghost stories were told about her before she even passed away.

And all of the all of the ghost stories about her are of her still persisting,

Of her showing up,

Opening a door when someone didn't know that that was her later on,

Saw a photograph or yes,

It was at this point it was a photograph of her and just went deadly pale.

And like that was the woman that had opened the door.

So,

You know,

These things.

And here she is,

She's famous now because she's lingering on her house.

And and she would not have been famous had she not lived a kind of quirky life and kept her house like a Victorian time capsule.

So she was quirky in that regard.

And so because she left this house,

A Victorian time capsule,

And it was in the 1920s by the time she passed,

It became a sort of curious museum piece.

And the Merchant's House has certain things in it that only exist in the Merchant's House because other people of her status and station and money redid things and made them modern and all these things.

So it just is this fascinating quirk that she wanted to keep everything in the 1870s.

And it's this wonderful little sliver of time.

And so the time slip angle of those things and the fact that she's still there watching over her house,

There's an empowerment in that she made her choice to stay in that house.

She made her choice long after her father told her she couldn't marry this one guy she might have married.

She stayed single.

She could have married somebody after he passed away,

But she didn't.

She's lived life on her own terms.

And so there's a way in which even the spinster narrative that has been lobbied at a lot of times,

A lot of women ghosts through the years that we love when there can be something that that,

You know,

Maybe maybe we can let these women live their own lives and let their ghosts kind of be living large in a way that their lives were made to feel like they should have been smaller.

Do you ever feel that or what are your thoughts on ghosts that are part of your your tour?

Do they ever pass on or are they always dwelling there?

And if they're dwelling there,

Do they need assistance to pass on or are they?

In the cases of the ladies of the house that we specifically mentioned in a haunted history of invisible women,

Those women love their houses and they are not unsettled ghosts.

They are they are watching over their domain and there's nothing about their energy that is sad or malevolent or in any in any other way other than then they are connected to the house.

And in some ways,

I mean,

As I as I always say,

When I'm standing in front of the merchant's house,

I say,

I don't know if it's the house remembering her or her remembering the house.

It's I do believe that sometimes place memory is really what is also taking place,

That all of those 93 years of Gertrude's energy in that house,

Maybe she's a bit of a projection sometimes from that energy,

You know,

And so I don't I don't claim to know other than I know that that energy,

I can feel that that energy is not disturbed or distressed.

It sometimes doesn't want to be disturbed.

That's why sometimes it sometimes Gertrude has actually closed the door on people.

But that just that doesn't mean that there's anything violent or unhappy there.

It's just that that that that's just not a time that she wants to to talk.

And I was overnight in the Morris Jumel Mansion,

Eliza Jumel,

Very present at that haunted house,

The only colonial mansion still in Manhattan.

She's uptown.

And there's a whole bunch of people who were trying to get her to communicate via a a flashlight that was unscrewed towards the end and the directive from from someone doing it,

Doing a paranormal investigation.

In this case,

I don't go on paranormal investigations,

Except in this case,

This was a specific fundraiser for the historic museum.

And so I thought,

OK,

I'll spend the night in this haunted house as a way to raise money for the museum.

And then you brought your sleeping bag and you rolled it out.

And it was really fun.

And the and the person who is leading this investigation was one of the events managers of the house.

And so so just,

You know,

In this regard,

This felt very much like this is being a part of a patronage of this museum in a way that is relevant to the rest of my work for sure.

So so we unscrewed this this flashlight and the directive was we were in Eliza Jumel's bedroom and we were asking questions.

And if it was going to be a yes,

Two blinks on the flashlight.

And if it was going to be a no,

One blink on the flashlight.

And again,

It was just a regular flashlight,

Just barely,

Barely touching at the end so that it wasn't on.

And there was this prompt for there to be a conduit.

And we were 20 minutes asking questions and nothing was happening.

And I finally said to to the gentleman running it,

This is a Victorian lady and there is mixed company of men and women,

Strangers in her room.

And that just would not happen in her era.

And so I think she might be reluctant to talk with strange men in the room.

Blink,

The flashlight goes on.

So so so then it was very clear she did not stutter.

You know,

So it was just this really great moment of.

And so,

You know,

The the the director was like,

Would you would you like us to leave?

And she blinked yes again.

And so for the next 20 minutes,

The girls sat around a circle asking Eliza if she enjoyed having people in her house.

And yes,

Blinking yes,

She did.

Does she does she have limits of what she will and she won't talk about?

Yes,

That was very clear as that there were.

So we learned from that that there were certain things where don't ask a lady something that you wouldn't ask a lady in her era.

So that was really,

Really fascinating to me.

I can't explain it like I just can't.

You know,

There are all these witnesses,

You know,

Another author friend of mine.

We were just like,

Are you really believing this?

And we just we just her her her presence is so palpable in that place.

And so I,

You know,

I did a lots of book launches for several of my books at the mansion,

And I would always have this freezing cold.

My left side would be freezing cold because any time I would do a reading,

She would be at my left side.

She used to be an actor,

So she wanted to be on stage.

I'd be on her front porch talking to the crowd and in Washington Heights,

You know,

Looking named for where General Washington surveyed the American Revolution.

You know,

So all this incredible history all around us.

But she's just she's a potent force there.

We do have stories that are very old,

And I do not get the sense that those entities are still there.

There's some definitely some places in Greenwich Village where where the the latest ghost story we have is maybe around the 1920s.

And and and there's and we cannot pin it to a specific person.

But the reason why we tell some of the stories at at 16 Gay Street is that several different people who happened to end up being famous all corroborated the same ghost stories from different time periods of not not knowing each other and they weren't published accounts.

So it later came out,

Like,

You know,

In the early 20th century that several of these people had lived here and they all had these different experiences,

But they all mirrored one another.

So in those cases,

It's like,

Oh,

There's something to be said for that.

But those stories have not necessarily persisted.

And so we're not sure.

I do have a feeling that unless you were still participant in the energy of a place,

I think it might really dissipate after some time.

I think there's a certain amount of feedback loop that happens.

People have interactions with Gertrude and Eliza,

So she stays interacting.

So I really think that that the less traveled spaces or the spaces where a private owner takes over or makes it something it's not,

You know,

In some places in some spaces might be capitalizing on the haunted location in a way that's disrespectful,

Then you're going to have some disconnect there.

I yeah,

I think that I think that axe throwing at Lizzie Borden's house is a big gosh.

So but that's a thing.

So.

Oh,

Wow.

So,

Yeah,

Well,

You had shared that you are going to be releasing an article next month called Between the Dreaming and the Dead.

And I was thrilled to hear that because I want to hear your take on dreams and the spirit world.

Absolutely.

Well,

As I'm sure your listeners know,

Dreams in the spirit world have been closely connected going back to like the dawn of time,

Really.

I mean,

There's so many ancient stories.

The Greeks in particular really had a lot of of parallels between the dream world and the spirit world.

And that is a great foundation and some of it kind of made it into to Greek literature and plays.

When you think about there's so many quotes from Shakespeare that especially from Hamlet that are directly linking to to sleep,

Perchance to dream,

And then all of the spirit stuff that comes after all of that as he's contemplating like that to be or to not to be to be or not to be speech is the ultimate existential question discussion.

And and really is there that those precipices of life and death that when you are in a dream state,

You are as close to death without dying as possible.

You are still you are unconscious.

And I truly do believe your mind opens up to things.

The most the most common thing I get.

So I use the phrase in the in my introduction of Haunted History of Invisible Women,

I use the phrase that I've become a sort of paranormal chaplain where I'm sort of in almost a pseudo religious capacity because I'm seen as an authority on something that is,

In fact,

A spectral spiritual matter.

And people will tell me their ghost stories between stops as we're walking along.

And sometimes they tell them with delight.

Sometimes they tell them with trepidation.

Sometimes they tell them with hoping I will tell them they're not crazy.

Any of these various things.

And they all different reasons and they all come with different energies attached.

And I try to just be very open and just receive them with love in my heart because I am called by the spirit world to do this work.

I really have been since I was a kid.

And I it's an honor when somebody shares something personal about a loved one with me.

That is that is an offering brought to a temple.

And so with with this,

I've started to get a certain amount of empirical data of how many people through the years,

Thousands of people that I've talked to about spectral things,

More often than not,

The people who share a ghost story with me will talk about a dream,

A loved one coming to them in a dream and saying something very specific.

It is one of the most common ways that loved ones will say goodbye.

And it doesn't necessarily make for a ghost story,

But it is outside of their normal purview because it is because generally speaking,

It happens in a way that's not like a usual dream.

It is usually very brief,

Specific,

There's almost a time clock sometimes,

And it is does not have any of the fantastical narratives or any of the really crazy stuff that our brain likes to do in all of its neural firings.

When when the visitations happen,

It's generally pretty straightforward.

And that to me is really interesting.

So so whenever people bring me something about that,

Someone visited them in a dream.

And does that count as a ghost story?

I ask them,

Well,

Well,

Do you do you want it to count as a ghost story?

Because it can if you want it to.

Like,

It depends on how if you have some kind of issue about that or if you don't want it to be seen as trivial and as trivialized,

Because a lot of ghost stories can become trivialized if we don't honor the dead properly.

But if they but I say the whole the whole word paranormal is something that's outside of your normal that these things,

When something like this happens and you get some kind of message from a loved one who's passed on,

That is outside of your normal day.

So thusly,

It kind of goes into that realm if you want it to.

If people want a scientific explanation for it,

Then I will allude to all of the various things in theoretical physics that sound a lot like a ghost story.

And it's you know,

I don't think that science and the paranormal are at all antithetical.

I don't think they're at all at odds.

I don't think they're at war.

I just think that part of the spectral field is something that science just can't quite quantify yet.

And it may or may never.

It may just decide it whenever wants to be pinned down.

And that's totally fine.

I don't mind existential questions.

I actually really revel in them.

But a lot of people get very upset about not having answers.

And I have every empathy for that.

But I just don't know how that brain works because I have always been OK with the existential mystery and the divine mystery.

I'm OK with that.

It's a great comfort for me.

But I understand it's actually something that not everyone is very comfortable with.

And I totally respect that.

So I'll meet them where they are and try to give them something that they can hold on to if they want something to grasp on to.

I'll work with them to get to that point without lying to them.

I can't prove anything to them.

So I'm not going to lie to them,

But I'm going to be in conversation with them,

In communion with them as this in this job,

In this role as a paranormal chaplain.

Yes,

And I love that title and I love that that bleeds into the work that you do,

Because it,

Of course,

In the work that I do,

I'm very often asked that.

And of course,

I mean,

I've had that experience.

So,

Yes,

That is possible.

And I always bring that up.

I always say,

You know,

Look,

Time and space,

Dreams are outside of time and space.

And so anything,

In my view,

That's metaphysical or mystical or magical or spiritual or mysterious can happen there because it's not it doesn't go by those rules.

And so we can meet other spirits.

We can travel to other places.

We can see people we don't know in this life.

We can experience things that we haven't experienced.

And it's all possible.

And that's why it's so amazing and why it's so mysterious.

And quantum physics tells us that time might not be the linear thing that we think it is.

It's very well an illusion.

And that is so destabilizing to people when they think,

OK,

It's one thing for me to like maybe listen to my dreams.

It's one thing for me to maybe consider that they're not just nonsense.

But now you want me to consider that maybe time and space isn't what I thought it was and that this reality might not be what I thought it was.

And so it's really a path that I lead people down to open their minds and blow their minds and,

You know,

Guide them in this.

Hey,

What if right exploration of the inner world,

But also the world beyond what we perceive or beyond what we are told,

What we think it is.

Yeah,

Right,

Right.

Totally.

And I think I personally find it really freeing that I don't have to have all the answers because the answers cannot yet as cannot yet be proven by science.

They just can't.

So that to me sort of feels like it's a nonstarter.

So we might again,

We might we may yet get there.

And so if if science is comfort,

If pinning this stuff down to a scientific thing is is comforting for you,

Then I think that there there is this progress and process towards finding finding what the God particle might be or any of these various things,

You know,

That all of that's possible and that work is being done.

So so leaning into that's great.

But for me personally,

I just I find the not knowing to actually be a freedom.

But again,

I can't I can't force someone to see that perspective.

I will work with them to get there if they want to.

But it's really like where how open and closed is your mind at a given point?

Because sometimes folks have to close their mind to things because that's just they need to just get through their next day.

They can't actually be you know,

We have to be empathetic for wherever folks are on their journey.

And sometimes it's not a time to up uproot and upend.

And I also respect that,

Too.

Yes,

Very true.

Yes.

You have to be open and willing to explore and already be in that seeking state,

I call it.

You have to be willing to want to have your world kind of cracked open because it's then it's going to be in a dramatic,

Amazing shift.

But you have to be willing to do that.

And also to a point on the the the alignment of dreaming and the spirit world,

Another thing,

In addition to people coming,

Loved ones coming through in dreams,

Waking up to a ghost or a spectral event is also common.

So wherever you are in that sleep state and if you wake and there's something,

Whether it's whether it's a sleep paralysis thing or whether it's something else that has woken you and you see something that you're not sure how or what you're seeing,

That's definitely happened to me where I've had spectral experiences that I've been woken,

I've been awoken and then there is something that's happening.

And I do really believe that the dream state is a liminal state.

And so I really feel like that's.

You know,

That's a place that we are also our spirits are vulnerable in that moment.

And so,

You know,

For anyone who gets really scared about those kinds of things,

Then I just talk to them about psychic shielding,

Which,

You know,

Is we always have to kind of protect ourselves and think about that.

You know,

Nothing,

No entity or no energy has the right to encroach upon us if we do not allow that.

So so just a certain amount of like boundaries,

I have to say to people who are if they're in a I've actually given advice to people in haunted places where they have felt kind of beset by things that they get it,

They get to establish their own boundaries with the spirit world and just and to tell the spirits what is and what is not OK,

And to draw that sort of line in the sand in whatever ways that they that they want.

I am I am not I am not a priest.

I do not I do not have I do not conduct cleansings or rituals or any of those kinds of things.

I do not.

That is above my pay grade.

But but I would I can't encourage people to find their boundaries with the spirit world for sure,

Because just because it's out there doesn't mean you have to be communicating with it just in the same way if a person is being disrespectful to you and disrespecting your boundaries,

A living person,

You can tell them and reestablish your boundaries that way,

Too.

It's really important to share.

So I'm glad you mentioned that.

And I think that if we can empower ourselves that way,

Maybe we become we can allow our curiosity to blossom about the other world and feel that we're not so.

Wide open and unprotected in doing so.

So it's nice to know that you can still explore while still protecting yourself.

Yeah,

You've got to have a sense of where your energy is and where it stops and where other things begin and just that.

And I don't know how to tell people that whatever that radar is,

Is for you to determine.

But but yeah,

I think that a lot of times people just think,

Oh,

I've got to open myself up without any kind of filter or without any kind of caveat like no,

No,

That's actually not throwing yourself into the openness is actually not healthy if without a little bit of guardrails.

Right,

Right.

Well,

For the people that want to maybe be in the New York City area and want to check out the ghost tour and meet you in person,

Where can they find you?

Well,

I'm only giving a few tours in October,

And I am grateful that I have a lot of public lectures and more book talks about a haunted history of invisible women that I'll be doing around the nation.

So so I'm only going to be in the city for a few days,

But all the tour guides at Burroughs of the Dead are fantastic.

So and so that's listed there.

The ones I'm doing specifically the calendar for Burroughs of the Dead has what what tours are happening when it does not say which tour guide is leading them.

So if you want specifically to know,

I've got some at the very end of the last weekend in October.

I'm doing four different tours and you should come on the one that Andrea and I are doing together because you meet the stars of a haunted history of invisible women and we take you to some of our favorite places that are noted in the book.

So that one's really that's that's very fun.

And that's happening on Saturday and Sunday,

October 27th and 28th.

No,

Wait,

27th,

28th and 29th of October.

OK,

So yes,

This this fall.

So as for next year,

I have no idea.

But yes,

Coming up.

Yeah,

Coming up,

There'll be definitely and we do our tours do sell out.

So so go quickly.

And Andrea is a particularly delightful tour guide herself.

So I really hope that you'll support the company because it's really been an incredible journey to to be walking these paths with her as a co-author.

And the book's done well enough that we were contracted to do another book examining Gothic themes.

So in 2025,

America's most Gothic haunted history stranger than fiction will be out with Kensington.

And that's going to be examining ways in which real life events mirror tropes from Gothic literature.

Amazing.

Well,

I definitely want to check that out as well.

How exciting.

Well,

Thank you so much,

Lena,

For being here today.

It was wonderful to do this special episode with you.

I'm so glad to be able to speak with you.

And it was just it was a very special episode.

So thank you for being part of it.

Well,

Thanks for yes,

For for all that you do in in this work,

Which I happen to think is very important work.

So so here's to those spiritual journeys.

Thanks again.

Thank you.