Mastering Relationship Skills With Dr. Stan Tatkin

54:02

54:02

Mastering Relationship Skills With Dr. Stan Tatkin

by Michelle Chalfant

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talks

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Could your relationship benefit from a deeper connection? Join us for a conversation with Dr. Stan Tatkin, co-founder of the PACT Institute and renowned for his psychobiological approach to couple therapy. We explore his inclusive approach to modern relationship structures. Dr. Tatkin reveals his secrets for maintaining excitement in long-term relationships and offers advice on living authentically, fostering self-love, and operating from your adult mindset.

Relationships Therapy Self Love Attachment Mindfulness Safety Relationship Issues Presence And Awareness Relationship Vulnerability

Meet your Teacher

Michelle Chalfant

Charlotte, NC, USA

Meet your Teacher

Michelle Chalfant

Charlotte, NC, USA

Transcript

Hi, I'm Michelle Chalfant, Psychotherapist, Holistic life coach, And human, Just like you, Learning to navigate life's challenges. With over 25 years experience, I teach people how to get healthy using the adult chair model. The adult chair model is where simple psychology meets grounded spirituality, And it teaches us how to become healthy adults. From anxiety and depression to codependency and relationship issues, You can use the adult chair for just about anything. Each week, I share practical tips, Tools, And advice from myself and a wide range of experts on how to get unstuck, How to live authentically, And how to truly love yourself, All while sitting in your adult chair. Welcome to the adult chair podcast. Dr. Sand Tadkin is in the house. Hello, Dr. Sand Tadkin. Hi, Michelle. Thank you for having me again. Again. And for the people that may not know who you are, Which I can't imagine that, But just in case, Instead of me reading your whole entire bio, Why don't you just enlighten us the high level version of who you are, Dr. Sand Tadkin? Well, Let's see. Should I start with where I was born? No. That's typically how I do them. It's too long. We want the abbreviated version. I'm the developer of a psycho-biological approach to couple therapy, Otherwise known as PACT, P-A-C-T. And along with my wife, Dr. Tracy Tadkin, We co-founded the PACT Institute, Which is a learning institute for therapists worldwide in this approach, Teaching this approach. That's me. Good God. That was great. Thank you. And your work is brilliant. I have to say, It's brilliant. As a therapist and a coach, I've taken trainings from the Gottmans and Margot, I mean, All of them, You know, Terry Real, All of the people out there. And what I love about you and Tracy is that it's common sense. You know, It reminds me of the adult chair model that I have, But it's common sense. When I read something that you wrote or my husband and I took your course, I'm like, Of course, It makes so much sense. That's what I absolutely love about it. So love your work. So let's jump right in because I have, As I said, Like so many questions and some people have written in. And of course we have our Academy members that are ready to ask questions at the end as well. So here we go. First of all, We're talking today about this incredible book, Wired for Love, But this is the second edition. Yeah. Second edition. So I just wanted to ask you why the second edition? It's like, Why did you feel that we needed to have a second edition? Because I wrote it in 2012 and I've learned a lot since then, Gotten a lot of feedback from it and COVID happened and all sorts of things have changed. But I wanted to bring people up to date with what I'm writing about today when I'm with the last book in each other's care and also make sure that this is going to be more inclusive. Because when I first wrote that book, Which was the second book, Actually, I focused really on heteronormative, Cis-gendered partnerships in dyadic formations, Right? So in just dyadic systems. So I have expanded it to include consensual non-monogamy, Polyamory, And all the other different ways that people form relationships today and actually have been for a long time. Especially today. And so I didn't realize at the time that I was excluding, But I've since come to realize that that isn't what I want. Excellent. Well, Thank you. Thank you for that update. It sounds like it definitely was an important update. So I'm going to dive straight in. Can I dive straight in? Sure. In the shallow end or the deep end? I'm not a shallow person, Stan. I tend to go like all the way in deep, Deep, Deep stuff. Okay. And I've got a lot of questions. Can I wear a floaty? Okay. Go ahead. Let me throw you a life jacket. Here we go. I want to start out with sex. Let's talk about sex. Sure. So my first question is, How do we keep the excitement alive with intimacy? And I have a little quick, Very quick, Little story I just want to share with you about, I think it was about 15 years ago. I was a soccer mom when my children were younger and I was at a soccer party again, About 15 years ago. Cause my kids were little. I remember they were small anyway. So I was standing around with a bunch of soccer moms at this like party someone was having. And there were probably about 10 to 15 moms standing there. And I love asking people deep questions and oftentimes they get uncomfortable, Which I don't care, But I really want the information. So I said to all of them, Hey, You guys, All this women, All the women were standing around. I said, How's your sex life? That's a good icebreaker. Yes, Of course. Of course they laughed at me. They're like, Of course you ask us this. You know, They're talking about something, A hobby and I'm like, I've got a great question. Let's all go around the circle. And I'd love to know how's your sex life. And they all went around the circle. Okay. And the first woman said, I haven't had sex in like at least five years, I don't want to do that anymore. And she had three kids who, By the way, Later got divorced probably five years later. Another woman said, Well, If I don't have sex with my husband every single morning, I mean, He is in such a grumpy mood and he's hateful toward me all day. So I have to have sex every day. So I just knock it out and get it out of the way every morning. I'm like, Do you enjoy it? She said, No, But I do it for him because otherwise he's just a pain in the ass. I said, Okay. And then almost everyone else said, Well, I mean, Of course I have to have Saturday sex or I have to have weekend sex or I have to have, You know, Sunday sex. And then I'm done. And I asked every single person, Every woman, Did you enjoy it? Do you enjoy it? Are you enthusiastic about it? And honestly, Stan, Almost every single person said, No, I just got to get it out of the way. And I thought, Oh my God, This is so sad. And there was one woman there of all of us that said, I actually have a healthy sex life. We have sex at least twice a week and I love my husband and it's all great. And I was like, Well, Like one out of 10 or 12 ain't so bad, But she was lying too, Right? She seems like she did, But funny, Because if you saw these women, It's like they all looked like they were happy and they were joking around their husbands at games and things like that. So I found it really fascinating. And I went on to ask a lot more people that same question and I got the same responses from so many people. So can you touch on this? Like what goes wrong? Can we get it back? I mean, This seems to be a common thing that happens with couples. Well, It's an interesting last thing you said, Can we get it back? The question is, Did we ever have it? Because in the beginning, Sex is a whole different thing, Right? Because we're on endogenous drugs that change our judgment. And it's as if we're getting a biological push from nature to procreate. Because remember, Nature doesn't care about relationships, We do, Only about continuation of the species. And so there's that experience when we're sort of super people, We're super performers in the beginning because of those endogenous drugs. And also because there are certain systems, Memory systems that have not yet been tapped, Like the attachment system. That comes about when we start to feel that we're committed to another person. And then we remember what it's like to depend on somebody and depending on whether you're secure or insecure, Distancing or clinging, You're going to defend yourself against what you know will happen. And that puts the kibosh sometimes on sex too. So there's, I think, A difference between what I would think of as intimacy or making love and sex. They could be the same, But they are also different if we want to look at it that way. So sex is a physical performance thing of usually people say it's intercourse because Clinton, Right? Didn't have sex with that woman, Meaning I didn't have intercourse, But everything else I did. So first definition of sex, What do you mean? What does this person mean by sex? Everyone has a different idea of what that is, Just like love. And so that could cause problems if you don't know what you're talking about. But also it's driven by systems that if we're experiencing it at the time, We don't understand. Because it tends to be for people in this country performative. And when that happens, A lot of trouble starts to happen depending on your attachment style. So the way I think of intimacy is being present and attentive, Right? Present and attentive and curious, Bedtime, Being curious with each other, Improvising, Nothing wrote, Nothing, No expectations, At least sometimes, Right? Being in each other's eyes, Allow yourselves to be awkward together and allowing whatever happens to happen, Which actually refreshes the novelty experience, The strangeness that we find in a person, Because nature has a way of automating everything we do. So that's due to the law of energy conservation. So energy conservation means nature has allowed all living things to do the least amount necessary. So it can do what it needs to do, Unencumbered and fully resourced. That means that as soon as we start to go out with each other and those drugs wear off, We begin to automate each other. And then memory takes over, Memory that goes all the way back to early childhood because these romantic primary attachment relationships trigger memories from the only relationship that does from our earliest dependency experience with the gods, The ones who created us, The parents, The giants, Right? And so that's why these relationships tend to be very difficult for most of us at some point. So now we're automating each other and literally stop looking, We literally stop being curious, We think we know the other person, But we don't. It's easier, But we are going to now make a ton of mistakes and attribution, All sorts of things, Because we've lost the need to be present and attentive. We're looking for other novelty. That's the human condition, All of us. In fact, There was a study that women get bored with their men faster than men get bored. They just don't say it. So this is what happens. And then we get lulled into an idea that we're family and then we start operating like one. That's not real sexy. The strangeness begins to wear off and the familial familiarity begins to take center stage and so we drop formalities. We tend to have, I think we have privileges, Entitlements that we do not or should not have, At least unilaterally. And so all these things get in the way, Plus the messages from our culture of what you should be doing. Keep up with the Joneses. You should be having sex three times a week or whatever. Pornography changes the game in terms of ideas, Expectations, And distancing. So intimacy, We're moving through time, You and I. We're strangers always trying to get to know each other. That's our task, Right? We're not family. I don't really know you. I'm trying constantly to get to know you better and better. What else is there to do? And that is what stimulates the strangeness, The novelty. I look into your face, I look in your eyes, I stay there and I start to notice that I haven't been looking, That I've stored your face for weeks or months in my memory, So I don't need to look, Right? And so that makes life easier, But it also makes life boring and I start to take things for granted and I'm not getting excited. So there's no presynaptic dopaminergic squirt in our brains because it's the same old, Same old. The only way to break through automation is presence and attention. I don't care how you get that done, It has to be done, Otherwise you're not living, Right? You're in your head. You're in the past or the future and you're in your head only. So that's my recommendation because you want to be able to make love for all time because your body parts are not always going to work the way you want them to. Surgeries, Hormones, You know, Depression, Anxiety, Stress, Lack of sleep, All sorts of things are going to get in the way of body function. In fact, You'd be surprised how easy it is to interfere with genital function. It is amazing that we ever have sex. And so I think there's a more serious aspect here and that is presence, Attention, Curiosity. Who are you? I want to know you. I want to follow talk. Tell me about your most embarrassing experiences as a kid. Who's your friend? Who'd you kiss first? I mean, These are things we used to do and maybe didn't in the beginning, But we stopped. And so this, You know, We have to remember behavior wags the tail of feelings. You don't do something, You're not going to feel it. So if I'm going to summarize all of this, I kept hearing you say the word presence, Stay present, Stay present, Continue to look in the eyes, Continue to look in the eyes, Right? And then look through the windows to the autonomic nervous system. Oh, Okay. In fact, Graham just quoted you the other day, He's like, You need to be looking at me when you're saying that. Remember what Stan used to say? Yes, Graham. Okay. All right. So after the cocktail wears off, The hormone cocktail and that last nine months to a year, Maybe less. Yeah. Maybe less. For some even less. So then we, It seems like something else is quote unquote born. We can almost build a different kind of relationship than after that year, Just by continuing to slow down, Get present, Continue to look in your partner's eyes with curiosity and ask them the questions like you were saying, Like who'd you first kiss when you were a kid? Oh yeah. Well that's called pillow talk. It's kind of the shoot the breeze as you did when you were camping with friends or you were, Had sleepovers, You know, You would just talk about, You know, Just silly stuff that was not demanding, Not stressful. And it's so much fun and it's so rewarding that people can keep each other up all night and still feel rested in the morning. So what is that, Right? So there's something there about our, Our need to interact and to engage. And then there are things that get in the way of being engaging, Attachment, Trauma, And our modern life, Which is we're addicted to our screens and to information and we're hardly here at all. Something that you said, Which I, I preach this, I'm not going to quote you, But we attract what we know. So what we were raised with from our parents, Whatever emotional experiences and patterning that we learned from our parents, We then unconsciously find a partner that's going to bring up those same things, The patterns that we learned in childhood for us. Can you talk a little bit about how that happens? And because I know I've worked with so many clients over the years that are like, I'm moving to Australia so that I can get out of the United States. So I won't meet someone that I, You know, How my father treated my mother or whatever it might be. And guess what? They go to Australia and they find the perfect partner that still hits all that childhood wounding. So you talk a little bit more about that. Unless you go to Australia to meet a different species other than a human primate. Yeah. But no matter where you go, If you're, If you want to be with a human primate, A homo sapien, You're going to get the same thing because it has nothing to do with culture. In fact, This is like so many things I write about. This isn't personal. This is neurobiological. So what was the question again? The question is, Talk a little bit more about how we attract the perfect partner. And I don't care if it's the same sex partner or not, We attract that person to, To bring up what we experienced in childhood. Our childhood wounding is going to come up with our partner. So talk a little bit about that. So we, We pair bond by, By recognition and familiarity, Familiarity, Right? We don't, We don't pair bond with somebody who's too strangerish, Right? They're too far away from home. I don't recognize them. That doesn't satisfy a part of me that needs to be there in order for me to live and commit to you. Right. Unless we're the only two people left on the planet. And so that's going to happen. That's, That is a memory issue. Almost everything we do is by memory. If you think about that, You know, It's true. And so we pick people by memory, Gee, I like you right away. I don't know why, Or I don't like this person right away. I don't know why. That's a memory thing. We're matching them up in some way with a memory of other people, Other experiences, And that either attracts us or averts us. So that's happening. Again, It's not personal. The idea that you're marrying your mother or your father is, Is a, Is not true. You're not, That would be creepy anyway, But you're marrying someone that contains the potential to be a lot of different characters that are populated in your head. And those people, It's not the people, It's the experiences with them that are being tapped. Right? So, Oh, I keep attracting alcoholics. Well, It's not that you're attracting alcoholics. There's something about the way the person is behaving that is familiar to you. That is the positive part of that person or that aspect that you think is that person. Because remember, You don't know someone until maybe three years, Right? Really? So all of this is, Is in our heads. And so the problem isn't that I keep picking the wrong person. The problem is I don't know, I'm not picking the right or the perfect relationship. I'm always thinking about the perfect person. And we have to understand that all people are disappointing. All people are annoying, Irritating, A pain in the butt. All people are burdens. There is no exception. There is no exception. And so if you're looking for the perfect person, You will be disappointed at some point because that's not the place to look. The place to look is what would be the perfect relationship with person X. And I'm looking for people who fit the bill and prove it, Right? Because it's a cultural, Moral, Ethical, Want, Need area that I'm pointing to. And I don't want to accept anything less because people are perfectly imperfect, Right? That's fine. That's fine. But we both want the same things. We both want the relationship to come first above all else. Or if not, And that's what I want, Then good day, Right? I'm looking for someone who wants the same thing, Right? Has to be. So that's the mistake that people make, Number one. Number two, All of us have bad pickers. There's no such thing as a bad picker. The problem is that we're not using our social network to vet these people because again, We're on drugs. We're not ourselves. We don't know what we're doing. The attachment system engages and the attachment system isn't love. The attachment system is a biological mandate that kind of says, I can't quit you. When that is engaged, It's much harder to end a relationship even in the beginning when it's inappropriate, Right? The relationship is not appropriate. So I get rid of those old ideas, Vet your partners with your peeps, Female, Male, Young and old, Ask them ahead of time, I want you to give me the straight skivvy on how do I seem with this person? Do I seem like myself? Do you like the me with them? Do you like this person? You know, What do you think of them? This way you get better data because if they don't fit in your social milieu, They're probably going to be a problem, Probably. This has been this way since the beginning of our time, Right? Villages picked mates. In religion, Families pick mates too, Right? And there's a reason for that, That they are fitting into somehow the culture that the person who's wanting to get married came from. And so they're more likely to fit in. And so that's why you want to do that. Don't trust your picker ever, Trust your people, And make sure you open the door for them to speak honestly, Because they won't unless you ask. That's a big thing, Right? The other thing that is a problem is that we don't like anything that we can't manage. We don't like computers, We can't work. We don't like cars that are too fancy. Anything that is too difficult, We feel incompetent with and we don't like it. And so that's the same with a partner, Same with a baby too. If you can't calm your baby a long time, You start to dislike the baby because you can't regulate, Right? The baby won't regulate with you. So I pick someone who has anger issues again and again, Well, That is something I've never been able to tolerate or regulate in myself. When someone's angry with me, I have this very same problem coping with that as I did in my childhood. So it isn't that I picked the same person, It's that I've never mastered how to deal with that particular state of mind, Right? Or the addictive state of mind, The addictive way that someone organizes in their head. I don't know how to handle you, I don't like you. And that is very, Very true, Right? That is just the way we are. So it doesn't mean that you've picked wrongly, It may mean that you still have to learn how to deal with these aspects of another person that you've never been able to handle inside yourself, Right? So my question is, I want to talk about, Let's say that example. I grew up in a household where my mother or my father was angry, It doesn't matter. But I grew up in that household, Let's just say for example. So then how would I then create a partner or go find a partner or choose a partner that wasn't angry? My question is, Would I even be attracted to somebody that didn't have those issues or that brought up, Let's say my codependency and trying to calm the anger down or help that person? Would I even be attracted to a healthy person? It's not a matter of healthy, It's a matter of whether what you want in a relationship will work, Can work, Or maybe it can never work and you're just not paying attention. So here's an example. You can't legislate feelings, You can't say we can't be angry. You can, But good luck finding somebody, Right? You can't legislate thoughts, You can't think that. So all you can legislate is behavior. One person's yelling is another person's whisper. So everyone is different, Right? Just because you think I'm yelling, Other people may not, It doesn't matter. If you are my partner, Your experience is good enough for me. And so I change my tone, Right? If I want to get along. And so we have to understand that we're dealing with a different animal. You're the animal I picked, I've got to learn you. I've got to learn how to master you without hurting you, Without using a stick or a whip. That's skill, That's interest, Right? I know how to calm you down. I know how to stop you. I know how to start you. I know how to move you over here without you being upset with me. I am a master at you because I study you. That's part of the gig. And you do that with me because it's a survival mechanism. I have to know you because if you go down, I go down. And I have to know how to pick you up, Right? I have to know how to restore you because it's just the two of us on this survival, In the survival team. So it's not a luxury, But couples never think about this. It's an amazing thing. Couples come to the table with a whole host of fantasies, Expectations, Entitlements, And they never organize. They never think, Okay, What is this thing that we're doing? I mean, Why are we doing? What's the point of us? They don't do that. How are we going to put things in place to protect us from each other? Because we're animals, Yeah? We are not so good on a bad day or when we're under stress. So we have to plan for our devils, Not our angels. That's safe, Right? That's smart. That's not naive. Couples don't do that. They do everything ad hoc, And they do it as if one person is declaring something, This shall not pass, When they're both supposed to come up with policies. They're both supposed to come up with social contracts, Agreements that keep two different wild beasts, Because wild we can be, Just look around, From being so when the time comes and behavior starts to get out of control, Right? Because we have to stay allies. We have to stay collaborative and cooperative. So it's a different thinking, And couples just don't think that way. Everyone else in every other union that's free and fair does. You would never start a band without having a shared purpose and a shared vision and knowing where you're going and knowing what the rules of conduct must be in order to succeed, Right? Because we all want to win. We all want to make money. We all want to succeed. Same thing with a couple. They don't have any idea of why they are or what structure they have created that contains them and makes good things possible and bad things difficult to happen, So say us both. And there we have a real problem with the ideology, The expectations of love relationships. It's based on emotion, Not on a purpose. And we do better when we set things up based on purpose, What we both think is good, What we both think is best, Or what we both think is right, Right? It doesn't matter if we feel like it. If we decide that this is the right thing to do, We do it no matter what. We do it when it's the hardest thing to do because that's the only thing that protects us from each other. Otherwise, We might as well not have any agreements at all, Right? So this is how it's always worked, Accepting couples. I have. . . Couples are not built to last long or be happy for that much. Yeah, They're not built to last long. That was a really important comment too. That's because human beings are built more for war. We're very good at war. We're not very good at love. That's good. So then what's the one thing we need to do in order to stay connected long term? Understand ourselves, Understand that if you're a human being on this planet, You are by nature selfish, Self-centered, Moody, Fickle, Opportunistic, Easily influenced by groups. You can turn on a dime, Fickle, Right? And xenophobic. We otherize, Otherize, Otherize. If you're not like me, You're not like me, You're opposite me, You're an other, And then I treat you accordingly. So that is part of our DNA. That's part of our heritage. And if we don't know that, We're going to act out in terrible ways. So that's why we have laws. That's why we have culture. That's why we have social norms to keep us from being our worst selves. And you can see that that's not happening today, Right now, Right? People are showing their worst selves. People are fragmented, Tribalized, Because there's no coherent shared purpose, No shared vision as a group of Americans. We're now divided. So that will happen with a couple, Same thing, Or a family. No shared vision, No shared purpose, No guardrails, No relational morals and ethics. It's the Wild West, And people will fight. So what if I'm in a relationship and my partner, I'm hearing you say a couple of different things. Okay, So I'm in a relationship with somebody, And like you said- Is your husband named? Graham? Graham Stout, Do you want me to call him up here? No, No, I'm in a relationship with someone. I just said, Is your husband named? No, Stan, I'm not having a relationship outside of my marriage. Let's just say I'm in a relationship with someone, And I'm having realizations that, Oh, Wow, I'm noticing, I'm going to use this again, Maybe I'm codependent, I'm really enmeshed with him, Or he's, I don't know, Angry, He's detached, But I'm noticing what's going on with myself, And I do then my own personal work, Right? I then might start seeing a coach or a therapist and doing my own work, And my partner's not doing their work. So then when I have conversations with them and I'm saying, Hey, I'm realizing that I've got these issues, You've got these issues, Let's come together, And my partner goes, Yeah, No, I'm fine, This is all on you. What do you do with couples where they're not aligned? You know, They're just not aligned. It's a great question, And there's actually a simple but very difficult answer. Before therapy, People behaved themselves. You didn't need to go to a shaman or to a therapist to get your act together, Right? You were expected to do things, And if you didn't, You'd go to jail or you'd get kicked out of the tribe or things happened or consequences for bad behavior, Right? So the way to take care of that is to organize. Do we want a relationship of equals? Both of us share power, Authority. We are two generals, Two executives, Two top dogs. We have to reckon with that, And therefore we have to comport ourselves as leaders and bosses. Do we want that or something else? Because if one person doesn't want that and the other one does, That's called a deal breaker. That can't work. It's not because I say so, It's just, If you think about it, It can't, Right? We will forever fight over power. It just can't work. So when we're thinking of relationships in this way, It's not a matter of good, Bad, Right, Or wrong, Right? You have every right to be a drug addict, But if that's not the life I want and I don't want to be around drugs, Neither of us are wrong in my game. Neither of us are wrong or bad. We're just pointing in two different directions and it won't work, Right? It just won't. There's no way. You want monogamy, I want polyamory. Okay, I'm not wrong, You're not wrong, But it won't work. We can't, We won't be able to do business together. We won't be able to decide things. We won't be able to do anything. So people have to look at this as it is in reality. You have to decide, You have to make sure that you're on the same page with what you want this to be and where you want to go. Do you want to put the relationship at the top of the food chain? You and I are going to be in charge of everyone and everything. Why? Because everyone and everything is depending on us being a good couple, Good collaborators, Good cooperators, And happy. Because if we're not, Everything else will suffer. Kids, Health, Happiness, Creativity, Money, Everything. So since everything is hinged on us being good, You and I are at the top of the food chain. You and I come first. We decide we're the most important people in this room and any room. Everyone else is secondary. That doesn't mean they don't get served. It means they get served even better because if we're in good order, Then we can actually be available. We can actually do and serve other people. But if we're tied up in threat, If we're tied up in chaos, If we're tied up in conflict, We're no use to anybody. We don't make anything. We don't solve anything. We don't create anything. We're a mess. And so that's the reasoning why people might put the relationship, The union, As the holy grail, Right? This is the altar to which we pray. It's our creation. It doesn't exist except in our heads. And since we're the creators of this thing called relationship, We're kind of responsible for how it turns out because that's a design issue, Right? So people confuse this with a person issue. It isn't. People have been working together that are completely different forever because they understand their differences and they understand how to find where they are the same and where they agree. Unfortunately, Humans always look to where we're different and where we disagree, And then we can't get anything. We can't get consensus. So organization, Structure, Hierarchy, That has to be decided, Has to be. Without that, All your problems are probably due to it because you don't have policies. Yeah, So it's a deal breaker then. I mean, You said it's a deal breaker. That means- If it's a big, We're not talking about, You know, What color to paint the wall, Right? We're talking big ticket items. You want children. I never want children. That's a big thing. Here's what people do. You want children? I never want children. Let's buy a house. That's what people do. Oh yeah. I'm gonna convince them to have a baby at some point. It's okay. It'll work out. No, It won't. It's too unfair. It's too unfair, Too unjust. So anything that's too unfair, Too unjust, Too insensitive cannot work because it accrues threat, Memory, And resentment, Which is going to snowball and to a level where it'll be very hard to deal with because threat eventually becomes wholly biological. In other words, I picked up so much threat cues, So many, That anything you do or say reminds me of you're gonna hurt me. So I shoot first and I ask questions later. That is a tragic end, But that's where all will go if they don't do this correctly, Everybody, Everybody. So thank you for that. Over the last, I wanna say maybe 10 years, The word narcissism has been thrown around more than, I mean, I've been a therapist for 25 years. I've never heard it thrown around as much as I have in the last 10 years. So I guess that, Would you agree it's 10 years or so? But anyway, My point, My question for you is if we are with someone that we are feeling is a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies or traits or whatever you'd like to call, And I know there's a spectrum, Someone that is true blue DSM four or five, Whatever it is, Narcissist over here, And then someone that has these tendencies. If I realize I'm in a relationship with someone like that, What do I do? Is there hope? So what I've written about this, We're in a culture that has appropriated medical terminology, Psychiatric terminology, Psychological terminology, Research terminology for purposes of, As a cudgel to hit people over the head, To otherize, Again, Another example of otherizing, Right? All men are narcissists, All women are borderline, Codependents are borderlines, All this shaming and using these terms completely inappropriately. And yet that's where we are. So the truth is folks, Human primates are by nature narcissistic. So just understand that, That's my whole point. If you think you aren't, Then you're not aware, Right? Narcissism is basically supporting the self. Narcissism, When it's a problem, Is the self has been injured and damaged at a very early time in life, And this person isn't even aware that their behavior is all in protection of a fragile sense of self, And that is what causes the person to behave in ways that are unlikable, Right? They're unaware that they're being driven by a singular issue of having a fragmented sense of self, Underneath that is a terrible fear of abandonment, Okay? So we know these things by studying babies, That's it. Otherwise, We're all narcissistic, And that's not a bad thing. There's healthy narcissism, Right? So, But here we're talking not about why somebody won't play along. All that matters is they won't play along. It doesn't matter whether you're a duck or a dog or a cat. If you won't play along with the game I wanna play, You're not appropriate. I don't have to think about why. I don't care, Right? Because you either are on the same page or you're not. So you can be, And I can be as messed up as I want or as I am, But I want the same thing you want. I'm driven by my own interest in this idea. I will self-govern that part and allow you to govern that part for me as well. And I will do what must be done in order to protect the union that I value. That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if you have trauma, You're still expected to behave in a manner that is like a team member. It's not a solo sport, Right? Unless you decide it is, Which case you better be able to defend why it's a good idea, Because your life depends on it. So we're talking about grownup stuff, Being an adult and deciding your future. What, Who do I wanna be? What do I wanna be? What do I want this to be? And am I sincere and am I willing to put my money down and actually set things up that will force me to do things even when I don't want to, Because I believe that's where I want to go. That's it, That's character. So when we're talking about agreements, We're talking in principles, We're talking about things we want or don't want, And we're planning and we're vetting this for when we least want to do it. So let's say you and I have a, We decide let's do something. Let's build something in where we are admiring, Loving, Affectionate, Romantic, Appreciative of each other through each day. Each day, It's like just how we breathe. That's what we do, Right? And then the question is, Of course, How do you want your love admiration, Right? Because you're different than me. But the real question is, Do we do that when we're pissed at each other? And the answer, If it's a purpose-centered principle that must happen, The answer is yes. Do we do it when we hate each other? Yes, In all instances, It must be done. That is where I'm pointing, People. That's the only way to have a good life. Otherwise you get what you pay for, Which is nothing. You have to set the bar high because the bar for us off the factory line is low, Very, Very low. It's at the level of a five-year-old or less. And so if we want to live a life of being feral, Go ahead. But this is a higher level of social emotional thinking, Interacting, And a higher level of moral, Personal moral thinking. If you and I are in a two-person system, I have to take care of you and you have to take care of me. I have to be responsible for your ongoing felt sense of safety and security, And you are doing that with me. We guarantee it. That's a social contract because we can do that, But the world will never do it. We can do it because the alternative is terrible. We can do anything we want, We just have to agree. And we have to be sincere in wanting it, Right? And then we can do magic. Then we can do the sky's the limit. Sky's the limit because we're working together. So the answer to the question of codependency, Codependency is one direction only. I give and give and hope I'll get something in return. No, Two generals, This is based on terms and conditions. This is reciprocated or I'm not interested, Right? We have to play by the rules that we set up and how we envision this, Right? And I think we always do better when we believe in something greater than ourselves. In this case, Partners, Their creation that's constantly being shaped by them is this shared mythology called a relationship. That's greater than them. And so we are pulling our behavior up to have a better life, To be better people and to be happy. But we have to be disciplined and play fair. I can't win at your cost, I'll lose. I can't afford for you to lose. So we have to bargain. We have to make sure that every decision before we move is good for me and good for you or it won't work. It'll cause downstream trouble. So this is a different way of thinking, It's teams. It's a three-legged race, Right? Our legs were bound, We're two different people but we won't be able to do anything unless we move together with permission. Otherwise we'll fight and we go nowhere. We won't, We'll probably starve. And if you were tied together, You'd get exactly what I'm talking about. You can't do that. It's not a social sport. But again, I go back to, What if my person doesn't want to move forward with me? What if they're not interested? What if they, Bye-bye. I love you, But it won't work. Yeah, Yeah. It won't work. It's not, You're wrong. Yeah. It can't work. I love that answer because I worked with so many people, Excuse me, Over the years that have said, Well, Maybe if I do this or maybe if I change this or maybe if I have more sex or maybe if I, And they're going to change. It's like, They're not going to change. No. And it's not our job to change someone else. I can't change you. You got to want it. Yeah. What changes me? By having a purpose and a personal purpose that I selfishly want for myself, Not because you want it. If I do it because you want it, Watch out. I'm going to resent you. Right? Yeah. If you do it because I want it, You're going to resent me. I'll pay for it. Either way, We pay. What happens to you happens to me. Our fates are tied. Therefore, We have to think of each other and ourselves at the same time or the other will see us as an adversary. Fact. Yep. If I talk in a way that only is about me, It compels you to do the same. And now we're adversaries because we're not talking collaboratively. I'm not including you in my calculus and you know it. So it's a different thing. If you were in armed forces and you behaved in this way, Well, I just don't want to do it. You're in the brig or you're scrubbing toilets or you're doing pushups. It won't be tolerated, The culture won't because your life depends on you being a team player. You're risking other people's lives. This is not about you. This is about everyone. You have to care more or as much about the group as you do for yourself. And so that's affirmed. In a dance troupe or if you were going for the Olympics and you were an ice skating couple, Do you think that you're gonna fight so much that you won't get what you want such as to get the gold? No, You're going to work with each other because you both have the same want. We wanna win. Therefore, You're gonna have to work together. And if you're not, The coaches aren't gonna make you because you're jeopardizing this for everybody who's interested. So couples don't have that pressure except from me or you or anybody else who believes that this is reality, This must happen. And that's a hard thing because of orientation. Everyone knows how to do this. They just don't think they should. Got it. Ooh, That's so good. All right, Let's do one more question then we're gonna- Thank you for letting me blather so much. No, That was so good. That was so good. We're gonna do one more question and then we're gonna open up to the Q&A for the Academy here. Let's talk about the couple bubble. It's so important. You've talked about it on other shows with me but I love the couple bubble. It's in this book again. So can you share with people, What is the couple bubble and why is it so important? The couple bubble speaks to fealty to each other. We know exactly who and why we are. We have to protect this union at all costs. Therefore, We're gonna protect each other in public and private at all times. By the way, That protection is always measured by the person who experiences something hurtful. So if you think I didn't protect you, You win. I cannot and should not ever argue that because I'll just make you more threatened. So I am so sorry. I didn't know I did that. You know what, Next time I do that, Cue me and I'll cooperate, Right? So we are constantly assuring each other by our behavior. When we misstep, We fall on our swords fully. And that is an art and a discipline and it's very hard for most people to do. You know what, You're right. I was wrong. That was not good. I shouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have liked it if you'd done it. Full stop. No, I did it because, Well, Let me explain why. These are aggravants. Well, What about what you do? These are things that set up for war. This is what people do when they go to war, Right? You cannot afford to have a war in your own foxhole. That's stupid, Right? That's suicide. So I yield to you. If you thought that I said that, I said it. If you felt that I looked that way, I looked that way. I fix it because the relationship is more important than being right. The relationship is more important. I'm protecting myself and the relationship because if the relationship goes down, I'm screwed, Okay? It's a different thing. It's a different orientation. It's not a tool set. And I wanna be clear. The focus is not on the other person. It's on the relationship. Yes, Here's another one that people are gonna have a hard time with. I'm responsible for your reactions to me. Hold on, Say that again. I'm responsible for your reaction to me, What I say or what I do. I am, Because I should have known better. I should have known the animal I'm with. I should have known how to approach you, How to talk to you. You are my particular audience, I'm not. So obviously I messed up. So the emphasis is you're in my care. I am your handler in the best way. I have to be able to work with you without triggering threat or I get nothing. That's a fact. I could blame you, But that's war. Nothing will happen. So this is a different grownup set of responsibilities where the self is subordinated by something greater that includes the self. And that is the union that I'm going to benefit from because I've built it that way. We are both gonna benefit. Neither of us are going to lose, Which means we're confined to win-win. We have to actually work that. But if we think we shouldn't have to, We won't. I cannot afford you to lose at all because I will pay for it. I cannot. That's not how, It's not possible. So I understand that. Therefore, I have to make you whole and be okay at every move. And you have to do the same with me or there's trouble. Period. It's not personal, It is a fact. And it's always been that way with our kind people, Humans, Always. It's a hard one, For sure. It's hard. It blows us up in our self-esteem when we hold to it. And I can attest, It's hard. I'm as stubborn and annoying and as difficult as the next person, But it's worth it. It pays out immediately. When I do the right thing, And it's the hardest thing to do, Even though it's still hard and I just want to punch somebody instead of saying I'm sorry, My self-esteem goes way up because I know I did something that I believe was right when it was the hardest. And the other person knows it too. And that they appreciate and return because that's where gratefulness comes. That's where earned love comes. We're doing what we believe, What we've decided is good, Best, Right, Even when it's the hardest. You can't beat that. That's an awesome life, But it takes discipline. It takes conviction in your beliefs and in your agreements. And then it takes follow through as a fair player to do what you say, Period. And then everything starts to work beautifully. People soar because they're actually working together, Taking threat off the table systematically to where there is none and lowering interpersonal stress to a low hum. Now, All these resources that are used for doubt, Fear, Worry is gone. And now we can do anything we can create together. That's how I wouldn't be here and doing this, If not for my wife, She'd say the same. We made this, We created this by design to where we actually don't have anything to fight about. We still piss each other off. That's human beings. But we have issues to fight about because we already agree on those things. And so there's peace and there's profit. There's surviving and thriving. And that's what I wish for people, But it doesn't come cheap. And it really is all about safety. I mean, That couple bubble is all about safety. We've got to feel safe within our relationships. Otherwise you can't do anything. Yeah, Then there's no relationship. Here's the deal. If I start to make you feel unsafe and I can see it on your face, And if I know you, I can see it. I will not be able to influence you. That's a fact. Why? Because the slightest amount of corticosteroids in the brain changes the brain and dulls or inhibits the executive functions from being able to think properly. So I am more automatic and I'm more self-protective. The higher my heart rate goes and my blood pressure goes up. So all of that is a neurological. It is not purposeful. It happens autonomically because our survival instinct is extremely acute and will not do what we tell it to, Right? So now you can't influence me because you're not a friend. You're not friendly. And if I don't know that, And if I don't know how to manage that in you, We both walk away with nothing. That's the bottom line. We won't get anything done. And people who are experts in consensus making know this. And so that's what's difficult. It's understanding our nature and putting guardrails to keep us from doing what we naturally do, Which is pro-self only, Not pro-relationship. That's what we will all do under enough stress. You have to know that, You have to own it. You have to believe that that is true. It's not personal. Everyone's like that. But you've got to put things in place to keep you from going there. Otherwise, The plane will never take off. So safety and security and trust is everything. Everything. Such good stuff. Everything. This was phenomenal. Thank you. Thank you, Thank you. You're welcome. I believe this stuff, So. I can tell. Oh yeah, It's great stuff. Everything you've put out is great. Let people know where to meet them. Probably because I needed to know this myself. Isn't that the way it is? We have to learn it for ourselves first, Right? Yeah. Absolutely.