153 Fear Of The Feminine In Men And Women: Nalaya Chakana

Welcome to your perhaps yearly appearance on the Ronda podcast.

We have an in-studio special guest who hopefully will remain silent.

Right now she has a boob in her mouth,

But you may hear her add her thoughts.

Our daughter,

Kailani Moon.

Yes,

Kailani Moon.

Yeah.

So we've been meaning to record this for a few months now.

Of course,

If you know us,

We're new parents.

We have our four-month-old here on Naliah's lap.

And we've gone through personal journeys ourselves.

We're discovering things together about relationship.

There's many things you want to talk about,

Mainly in having a polarized relationship in there.

Baby goes biting the boob a little too hard.

She likes to play when she's done eating.

Okay.

That's enough.

So yeah,

This has been part of our,

Yeah,

Like you say,

Discovery.

And we've had conversations like,

Oh yeah,

We need to put this in a podcast.

We need to put this.

And now that we're about to,

Or I mean,

Now that we've started to record,

We both have blanked on everything.

So I hope that good.

I'm not blank.

Okay.

I am.

I'm breastfeeding.

The mind has just become completely mush regarding like clarity and time connection.

Yeah.

Which is actually maybe a first point in that.

Okay.

This is a little bit different of how we plan on starting,

But let's just go with this.

You know,

I'll speak for myself.

A lot of my views on masculinity and femininity and how the two come together in a sexual romantic relationship,

A lot of it has been theory,

Theory backed by personal experiences and all the things that we've learned as a non-parents.

And there's been a lot of like,

You know,

Obviously this is my realm of tying things to evolutionary biology,

But a lot of it has been in the head.

But this experience over the last year plus now of you becoming pregnant,

Giving birth,

And now we have a child and you're breastfeeding,

It has made it so clear or it's given us like real experiences that back these principles and that there's nothing more feminine than the experience of motherhood.

And I'm only watching from the outside or in relating to you,

But it's like,

Man,

Like what you just said,

It's like,

It's a huge burden or actually a better way to put it.

And you've said this a few times and I've quoted you on my podcast before on how you are so in your feminine and so at ease and so empowered as a woman when you get to be timeless because that allows you to respond to the needs of the baby,

Respond to what's going on in your body,

All of these things respond to the feeling needs of our household.

And we'll maybe talk about all of these things in this episode,

But that also requires you to lean on someone else to deal with all the stuff that most people in our consumerist world have to deal with on their own.

Yeah,

I want to add to that,

That I mean the depth of femininity that I touched upon during pregnancy and of course it's like evolving now obviously in motherhood.

It like almost came as a surprise.

Like I didn't know that this level,

This depth of femininity existed.

And I also very much saw,

Especially during pregnancy,

That it required me to be in that state of flow,

To disconnect completely from the needs of others,

Like messages and things or things that I thought were important.

I mean,

I dropped my work because I just fully wanted to experience the magic and the altered state of consciousness that happens during pregnancy.

And many women either don't make that choice or they don't give themselves that space even if they couldn't make that choice.

Or they don't have the opportunity.

Or they don't have the opportunity.

Well,

That part is really sad,

I think,

About the reality that we live in and also to think about how intense the postpartum was initially and how we should be in that flow of timelessness in order to like recenter ourselves,

Which I mean is probably going to take the rest of the year to really find.

But to give like one simple example,

I'm starting to record There to Love,

A course that I used to teach live and it's so freaking hard for me to focus.

It's hard for me to,

Sometimes I'll be saying something and I'll forget where I was coming from.

I'll like mid-sentence,

Suddenly forget the threat.

And it's something that is part of the hormonal realignment that is happening or the way that the brain has changed due to pregnancy and breastfeeding.

And so women cannot often be in the feminine even if they want to when they step into motherhood.

Yeah,

It's like you don't,

It's like whatever your ideologies are,

Or philosophies or political leanings,

It's like with something so real as the creation of life,

You can't really hide behind abstractions.

Like this is real reality beneath like however we want to think.

And I just want to say like,

We're going to speak mainly about polarity and the things we've learned about masculine-feminine relationship,

Obviously.

Well,

Hopefully everything we say is relatable to non-parents because it's really,

If anything,

This parental experience and we're only four months into being parents,

So we don't really know anything,

But it has reinforced and clarified and showed the purpose of why some of these ideas around masculinity and femininity matter.

Even if you don't decide to have children,

It's like this is why we're attracted to the people we're attracted to.

This is why women look for certain traits in men and men look for certain traits to women.

Like this is the reason,

Right?

It's all because of our biology.

No matter what you choose to do with your life or how you choose to relate.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And we were speaking before we started recording,

Maybe we could say it again about how we know a lot of women or you were saying this,

We know a lot of women personally,

But also like on the acquaintance level or who,

Oh,

Why don't you say it?

You said it better than me.

Well,

You were saying that you believe it's a new type of fear that men have where they fear women who are unable to sink into their feminine and I was saying that I almost believe that women are afraid of their feminine.

So it's like a collective,

Both men and women are both afraid of the feminine.

So even women who consider themselves highly feminine,

I mean,

I was one of them before this experience.

I mean,

How do I say it properly?

I am a very feminine woman.

I have done deep inner feminine work.

I've hosted women's retreats and sister circles,

But there's only so far that a woman can go with other women.

And there's one part that can only come forth by experiencing and experimenting with how to release and open up and allow the man to play his part so that the energies can truly polarize in a relationship.

And it requires two people with,

Yeah,

With the desire and of course the commitment and the trust to grow together.

And of course we all have bad experiences in the past that perhaps scare us because to be open as a woman,

It's very fragile,

But it is at the same time extremely powerful.

So anyway,

I'm kind of drifting off the fear of the feminine.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Because like on a practical level,

It's like for a person who lives,

Let's say a woman who lives in our modern day consumerist driven society,

For such a person to completely go into her feminine,

Like beyond just the connection to her cycle or a celebration of femininity,

Which a lot of women do.

And we have a lot of friends who are very deep in that stuff and very connected to that part,

Like you mentioned before motherhood.

But if you're paying your own rent and if you're having to deal with the world on your own as an isolated person living in your own apartment,

It's actually totally impractical to drop your masculine side because the feminine is vulnerable and that's where the magic comes from.

So I can share with you my practice because obviously I was the archetype of the entrepreneur,

The independent strong woman,

And I knew the resonance I had to be in in order to attract you.

This is basically how I was experimenting with this energetic presence or the energetic relating.

And what I understood in my journey is that I had to become a different person like in my resonance compared to the person I was in my work because that archetype is the person that people come to for either guidance or answers or to drop their dramas or their difficulties or their challenges or whatever.

And that became the main archetype that I saw was present in all my other friendships as well,

To the point where I knew I had to soften and practice that softening within my friendships in order to basically enter that state that would allow you into my life.

I don't know if I'm saying this.

Yeah,

Because like I'll say on my end,

Oh,

Go ahead.

I just want to give one more example.

So what I ended up doing,

This is like half a year before you knocked on my door.

I started opening up to the masculine.

So specifically I would look for men as teachers to be in the state of receptivity for or to receive the support of to receive the guidance.

So the sport that I was doing was taught by a man,

The books I was reading,

I ended up listening a lot to your podcast.

And whenever I had something going on in my life,

I would refer to my brothers.

So my male friends to kind of just be in that receptive soft energy,

Not always the person who has all the answers or who figures it out or who's self-reliant because those are the blockages that cause us for rejecting a true good man.

And I guess I'm bringing this up because one girl recently wrote me and she said,

Yeah,

But how can I still end up getting everything done that needs to be done and be in my feminine?

And this is kind of why I'm sharing what I just did to kind of like balance it out because it doesn't mean we can't do the things that are important,

But it's really about making space to practice softening.

Yeah.

Because like,

Not just sexually,

But also socially and tribally,

We're meant to be interdependent and the modern world is set up to be independent and it's not good for anyone to be completely independent and isolated.

But if you have to choose between being masculine or testosterone driven versus being in your feminine,

It's just more practical to be in your masculine because like who else will provide security.

But I wanted to say on my end,

You were very good on paper as a partner,

But I know a lot of women who are good on paper.

And one thing that made there basically no friction when it came to committing to you was that I did feel so much trust from you that there was a space for me to fill with my abilities.

And that's what made it very easeful beyond the intellectual,

Right?

It's like,

Okay,

You have all these traits that are great.

It's true.

But the fact that I felt that you really gave me space because the thing that I've seen with guys a lot that is troubling sometimes for them,

And I felt this in the past and past relationships,

It's like if the woman is not letting go for masculine,

Then there's no space for like,

What am I really doing here?

Like what am I supposed to do?

And then you see this crisis of masculinity on a macro scale where like,

Men don't feel like what they're good at is asked for or needed or valued.

And then you kind of,

I mean,

That's a whole other thing,

But that's kind of like the delusion disillusionment you see a lot.

So hold on,

I want to know,

Is this something that you are?

Because obviously,

You and I were in contact for about four years.

Is that something you sensed kind of from a distance or in the interview?

Or once we started really talking one on one?

Only when we started really talking before we really started talking,

And I felt that you really trusted,

I guess,

Actually,

I didn't really think about it consciously.

But I guess I can look back and see,

It's clear that you trusted the masculine in general.

And then I could see you trusted me and appreciated who I was.

So that gave me is all subconscious or semi conscious.

But before that,

I just thought you were some hot woman who was cool.

You know,

I didn't really think beyond that.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

It was very,

Yeah.

A long time ago,

I had a I ticked a few boxes.

One was my breasts in our hug.

Okay,

Well,

This is these are Yeah,

Okay.

All right.

So well,

Two things that kept my interest on Nalaiah over the years,

Even before we really connected was when we met,

We hugged and I felt how perky her breasts were against my chest.

And that that image has always that sensation always stuck with me.

And then we also collaborated on something where she sent me a foot,

You sent me a photo of you doing some like yoga pose was like,

Wow,

She's flexible.

Those two things.

You know,

Of course,

That's a more lust driven thing,

Which is also important.

Yeah,

So one thing I've been thinking about,

And we've been speaking about a little bit is that we have a daughter.

And our daughter,

Of course,

Will one day be a woman.

And regardless of what her interests are,

There is this thing that's probably going to get even more difficult when she's an adult,

Which is,

There's like the way that society has made it such that a person regardless of your gender,

Is successful,

Which is mainly having a masculine side where you're independent and all that stuff.

But it's not so useful in a relationship,

Assuming you know,

She dates men,

Let's say,

You know,

The thing that you're talking about in this like kind of archetype of like the corporate woman or the independent entrepreneur woman.

They're great skill sets for the marketplace where everyone kind of has to be testosterone driven.

But then it becomes a challenge.

And again,

We know a lot of women who they just struggle in relationships because of their fear of the feminine.

Yeah.

And I don't know what the solution is,

Because I've been trying to think,

Like,

Okay,

We want our daughter to be fulfilled in her relationships,

But also,

You know,

Economically secure.

And even the idea of like her going 100% into her feminine all the time,

If she ends up with a guy who's abusive or incompetent or anything,

You know,

That's terrible,

Right?

Like I wouldn't want her to be fully dependent or interdependent with such a man.

So there's kind of like this thing where for a woman,

I can see how challenging it is where you kind of have to understand how to play both roles and know when to switch one on and one off,

Which is not amazing,

Almost two totally different personalities that have to exist in the same person.

Yeah.

And I mean,

In my experience,

And many,

Many women I've worked with,

It's almost like you need to get your intuition crushed.

Like with me,

It was a relationship with a narcissist.

And I think many women have to go through it in order to know that you can trust what you feel and to know exactly where are those boundaries.

So unfortunately,

Many of us need to like,

Be crushed,

Let's say,

But have to take that as an opportunity to stand stronger.

And I think that this is really where a lot of women end up kind of defeated or like losing faith completely in men.

I mean,

I posted recently that I'm redirecting my work specifically for this archetype,

Like the strong independent woman,

Because I find it very fascinating.

I mean,

Obviously I was playing that role.

I mean,

Not like playing a role,

But it was the archetype that I found gave me confidence and gave me a sense of safety when what I really craved was to really feel safe with my man.

And I mean,

Now that I've been pregnant and now that you know,

Our daughter is here,

It shows that had I remained in that archetype of the independent woman,

I don't think our relationship would have lasted first of all.

So anyway,

I think I'm drifting off a little bit in the wrong direction,

But no,

There's no direction that's wrong.

Okay,

Great.

I'll direct us because I'm the masculine.

Okay,

Great.

I'm just going to keep on rambling and then you can pull this back.

So yeah,

The other thing I wanted to mention in that is that it almost feels like this fear of the feminine.

So a lot of women who feel that confidence in the independence or mid thirties,

They will put all of the emphasis of their energy into work and creating a business and so on.

Thinking that,

You know,

After that,

That they will have time and space for pregnancy,

Perhaps.

I mean,

I bring up the subject a lot because,

You know,

I've been pregnant,

So people,

Women talk with me about pregnancy and babies and things like that.

And I like talking with people about desires.

So I always ask people whether they have the desire and it has really caught my attention that there's this general vagueness,

Like somehow there's a desire,

Somehow they don't really care whether it happens or not.

But underneath,

There's something in me that feels that the confrontation with the how much a woman needs to then surrender to the feminine is the thing that women are scared of,

Because it's so much more confronting than I could have ever imagined.

And as you said,

I was very open to it.

I was very willing.

I was praying for it.

I've done so much work on my feminine.

And still,

For me,

There was somewhat of a challenge in certain deeper layers that I needed to sink in.

So even for us who are willing,

Who are open,

Who wants to be,

You know,

A wife and lover and a mother,

And perhaps in the future work,

But all of it combined,

It's like,

It's quite something.

Yeah,

Because you're really going against the cultural environment,

Because especially and for right reasons,

Right?

It's like,

Feminism in particular has been with good intentions,

Trying to empower women so they're not victim to shitty situations that women have been in historically.

And our culture gives a very clear roadmap about how to be economically successful,

Get educated,

Get a high paying job,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And there's even advice to women of like,

Don't be too vulnerable,

Right?

Don't let a man have too much influence over your situation.

But again,

Our reproductive,

Our sexual instincts still follow this.

And it's not,

It just doesn't allow space for one's feminine.

Our baby just bit Nalaiah's poo.

Yeah,

So recently,

I made a post about there to love and directing it at a independent strong woman.

And there was someone who said,

Yeah,

Well,

There's no good men left.

And if only men this and that little blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And my response was,

I think it's your lack of,

You know,

Your limits and beliefs that are causing for you to keep attracting the wrong man.

Because it's like,

It is difficult.

Of course,

If you've had a series of assholes in your life,

Which I think happens to the best of us,

It does become difficult to then trust that good men are out there.

But I think what we're doing in this podcast is not saying that assholes don't exist.

I think we're just really shining lights on this blind spot,

Or this barrier that is created through the archetype of the independent woman,

Which is a very fascinating one.

I'm curious,

As just something I've never actually asked you about this is like,

So all of us have relationship wounds,

As you said,

Whether they become traumas that affect our future relationships kind of actually,

I don't know what it depends on.

But I'll say for any man who dates women,

Like a woman who has been traumatized by previous men is probably the hardest woman to relate to on a deep level.

For good,

I mean,

It's not blaming anybody simply that like,

Okay,

Her defenses got went way up,

Maybe her first boyfriend,

She was actually in her feminine,

And he took advantage of her and harmed her.

And then ever since then,

She's always had her guard up.

But then it's hard to relate to such a woman.

What what does a woman do about that?

That's a big question,

Huh?

I almost want to say,

Will they sign up for dare to love?

Yeah,

Because I mean,

That is the inner work that has to be done to release those patterns that I mean,

The way that I approach it is really looking at ancestry first,

No,

Because many of the patterns are passed on.

For example,

I don't particularly come from a lineage where the women were very feminine,

They really weren't.

They were great mothers,

Including mine and including her mother,

As well as my father's mother.

But they weren't examples for me to know what it truly means to be feminine.

And so when I started to dive into this topic,

It really meant letting go of what I'd been taught,

Particularly around protection and how protection was very important.

Like whatever was passed on through the women in my family came with this sense of lack of trust,

If I can say it like that.

And so it required me to just drop that release that and really understand like,

Where did the first imprints come from?

And I think for many women,

Obviously,

That starts with perhaps either abuse that they know of within their family lineage,

Or that they suspect or something that happened in their own lives,

But to really release that and then to look at what patterns play out in past relationships.

And it basically comes down to like release,

Release,

Release,

Before starting to trust in something new,

To start envisioning something new,

To start practicing something new,

Kind of what I said in the beginning of this podcast,

Where I was practicing really being open to the masculine.

I was making it into a game,

I was like,

Okay,

How can I approach this in a fun way?

To really just,

Yeah,

Direct my openness and support,

Openness to support from the masculine.

Because I mean,

These are very simple examples,

But I think it happens a lot these days where women would even reject men picking up the check.

Or I mean,

I've lived in countries like,

I mean,

In Peru,

If you step off the bus,

People always want to help you with the groceries or whatever it is that you're carrying.

And I think many women have the tendency to say no to all the support that is being offered in these tiny little gestures.

So it really comes down to paying attention to the details and starting small,

Because some women may have bigger trauma,

But it really comes down to like,

What do you want?

And I think that this is what I really want women in particular to think about.

Think about your fertility,

Think about whether you have this desire to really go deep with a man,

Because I know tons of women who passed the age of 40.

And they regretted not putting enough emphasis on that desire,

And ending relationships that clearly weren't going to last,

And really putting focus on,

Okay,

How can I change my sense of trust in order to attract the type of man I want to be with?

Yeah,

And I can see again,

This is obviously I'm not a woman,

But I can see how difficult it is even to let a man pick up the check or carry your suitcase or something.

For a couple things,

It's like,

There's maybe I've heard this from women,

Like there's some guilt around not being because like,

Our culture so emphasizes everyone carries their own weight,

And of course,

A masculine way.

But then there's also the thing that I've heard from many women of like,

Oh,

He just did this for me.

Now what do I owe him?

It's like,

Oh,

He actually a lot of my female friends,

Especially in New York would be like,

Well,

I'm not going to let a guy pay for my dinner if I don't want to sleep with him,

Because then he might expect that I'm going to sleep with him.

Right?

And I get that.

I totally get that.

And I actually I think that's a totally fair way to look at it.

It's like,

Okay,

I don't want to be interdependent with this guy.

Well,

I'm not gonna let him do stuff for me.

But the other side of it,

And I think this is what you're pointing to more is like,

Even in a small way,

I mean,

Of course,

There's assholes and there's guys who are creepy and want to take advantage of things and or just are deluded.

But most men delight at the opportunity to do things for women.

It's like,

And I've mentioned this on my podcast before,

It's like when we were fixing up that house in Chiang Mai,

I loved doing the hard stuff,

Like the hard hardware,

Hard hardware,

No,

Handy,

Handy work around the house.

Like I love doing these difficult things because I knew you were trusting me to figure it out.

And appreciating it.

And for that,

It's like,

It's actually fun.

I mean,

It was like I was trying to hang up our swing.

It was really difficult.

It's like I had to drill through – it's all this stuff that I've never done before,

Drilling through concrete,

Getting stuff,

These tools that I've never used in my life.

And it was difficult and I stubbed my finger a bunch of times,

But it was kind of like the right kind of effort that felt so meaningful because my wife,

I don't want my wife getting on a big ladder and doing that stuff.

And I knew you're going to be happy.

And that's what made it fun for me to put out that effort rather than,

Oh,

We should both put in – we should both hammer the exact number of nails.

No,

No,

This idea of equality,

You know,

Like we – or I mean,

This is another thing,

Finances,

Where couples sometimes make such a big or create such a big conflict within their relationship because the way that the contribution is happening has to be equal even within the financial realm.

Anyway,

Without drifting off into that direction,

I actually wanted to say that when I hear you speak of these gestures or when I think of the ones that you've given,

It feels very like classic.

Like I think of the era of my grandparents and it feels like so romantic in the form of gesture and so beautiful in its essence.

And it's kind of like sad that it's being denied and rejected for all the wrong reasons.

And when I think of your – our relationship and like our dynamic and the way that we basically uplift each other by really shining in our strengths.

And again,

I mean,

This comes down to women redefining what it means to be strong,

But we can get into that in a moment.

Can you remember?

Yeah.

Because I'll forget.

But the point I wanted to make is that I see our connection because we are so driven by what is natural based on biology and the way that our hormones influence our beings.

I almost see us as like an old school – or it's almost like,

Yeah,

You take these old school roles,

But you coat them in a modern wrapping.

It's like we're doing it by choice because we do have the luxury in the 21st century to not be forced into certain roles that we have the choice to actually do what feels good.

I mean,

We have a million examples,

But like I love dealing with our family finances.

Like I enjoy it.

You hate it,

Right?

So it's just like an obvious thing.

Like why would I make you look at half the spreadsheets?

Like that's silly.

Yeah.

I mean,

I lost my ability to even deal with numbers during pregnancy.

Yeah.

Because pregnancy brain is like you're flooded with oxytocin.

But I guess the point that I wanted to make aside from the examples is really that somehow it sounds like we're stepping into the old school roles.

And I think that this is the thing that scares people a lot because in that time,

Particularly women were quite suppressed,

No?

Which is the whole reason why this movement of feminism has begun.

But I think it's time for us to like let go of everything that happened in the past and just base the balance on our biology,

But then still contribute to the relationship with ideas or inputs in ways to make it better that have nothing to do with the strict role definition that happened in the past.

So for us,

Freedom is very important in the space that we give or the way that we deal with things regarding parenthood in a very like team oriented way as opposed to,

Okay,

The woman does everything and the man does everything regarding work.

Yeah.

Because I feel like people aren't looking far back enough.

Like if you look at the 1950s,

There are many happy families,

But there are many oppressed women too.

Women didn't have the freedom to choose things.

And that's,

Yes,

Of course there's many instances where that was not good.

But if you look all the way back to where I care to look back,

Which is like pre-civilization hunter gatherer times,

It was kind of just,

I mean that's what I think we're connecting to.

It's like we've evolved to be in a certain way and there's certain things with our modern lifestyle that just don't fit.

Like we don't live in big tribes with all of our extended family.

So there's,

Yeah,

Like as we're experiencing now in parenthood,

It's like we need the village.

Yeah.

So maybe we have some thoughts,

Maybe we'll share later about how to recreate that in modern times,

But it's like,

This is what we have evolved for.

This is why,

You know,

I'm interested in the things I'm naturally interested in.

You're interested in the things you're naturally interested in.

I have one example I want to share it because,

You know,

Especially during post-partum,

You had some challenges and then baby also has had her challenges.

She had like a belly issue and there was a,

It's a couple of weeks ago where you didn't sleep well and she was crying a lot and you were having a hard time and I left the house for the day to work somewhere else just so I could concentrate.

But you're having a hard time and you asked me to come back for help because of course who's going to,

Who else is going to help?

But then one of your friends,

A woman who is also a mother came over with her seven year old daughter and I was already on my way home so I didn't see your message that basically hanging out with her,

All the problems were solved.

I came home and you know,

The four girls,

Including our baby and her daughter and your friend were cooking,

Reading books to the kids,

Like talking about your feelings between the two of you.

Like everything was handled in a way better way than I,

I mean I could have filled in with all those roles,

But like I suck at cooking.

It takes a lot of energy for me to understand your emotions when you're deep in them.

You know,

I mean,

You know,

All of those things are so much better handled because like it's just a natural thing that you're interested in it,

You love doing it,

You're good at it and I can do it,

But it's hard because I'm not really,

I didn't evolve to deal with these kinds of problems.

Yeah.

I look forward to coming home in our community.

Yeah.

So as,

As many hippies,

We do hope to find some sort of,

Maybe not,

I don't want to live on a commune again,

But I would like to somehow create or be a part of a,

You know,

Tribal thing with a lot of interdependent families.

Yeah.

Just people who we really feel inspired by and yeah,

To have that mutual sense of support.

Okay.

We were,

Oh,

I was going to say we have been interrupted by a hungry baby.

Yeah.

And my brain stops working when I hear,

When I hear a squeak.

So like,

Obviously this is all conceptual.

I don't,

I don't really know,

Like if I switch into oxytocin feminine mode,

But there are definitely certain states where I feel very responsive to the baby.

Actually,

I'll just say like when I,

When I'm high,

I just have definitely go into receptive,

Uh,

You know,

Feminine states.

And like,

I do feel like I can be with the baby,

You know,

I don't know,

In the way that I often see you,

Like when the baby cries,

Like you just seem so not phased and like,

I almost like,

Oh,

You're rising to the challenge.

Whereas like if I'm concentrating or I'm in like a more testosterone mode,

It's so hard.

It's like the,

It's like when the baby cries,

It's like everything.

It's like my,

My mental software gets like,

Like,

Like a scattered and it's like so hard.

It's like,

It's such not the right mental state to be with a baby.

Yeah.

I mean for both men and women,

Like if,

If you're in the doing energy and you don't want to be interrupted,

It's like the most frustrating.

Yeah.

It's the,

It's the,

It's the verbal,

Like when I'm,

Especially when I'm writing,

It's the opposite of empathizing with the baby,

Which is maybe why every time the baby cries,

You lose your words.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause in the morning I go walking and I usually reply to messages and I can't even concentrate on what the message is saying.

And I often,

Wow.

It's like the hardest meditation to keep my focus on what I'm saying.

Yeah.

The two different brains.

Yeah.

I think we can try it.

I mean baby is getting a little tired,

But,

But I think we can do it.

Yeah.

There's one more subject that we find really important to add and it's about the redefinition.

It's about the redefining of what it means to be strong when it comes to femininity.

Yeah.

Cause again,

Our cultural reinforcement is all strength.

Even with feminism is strength from a masculine perspective.

You're independent,

You're working hard,

You're ambitious.

You know,

Just the idea that it's somehow a negative thing to encourage women to be mothers.

I mean,

I'm not a woman,

But I find it so offensive,

Especially when I see the beautiful experience you've had through motherhood.

I'm like,

I wouldn't want any,

I mean,

Obviously not everyone wants that,

But like just the idea that that is inferior to wanting to be the CEO of a company really infuriates me.

Especially as the father of a daughter,

That's definitely not how I want her to think.

Right.

Of course I want her to be free to think whatever,

But anyways,

I'm going a little bit off,

But it's that it's that it's that a feminine or or strength or being a powerful person is really only viewed from a masculine perspective culturally.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So the example I want to give is actually about my postpartum.

I'm just trying to gather the,

The right words because it was such a vast experience that,

Yeah,

It was like many weeks after giving birth where it basically was like my identity got shattered completely and there were parts of my identity that basically died during giving birth.

All of this sounds quite poetic,

But it was very intense and new experience because it required me to really redefine femininity.

So the interesting thing about this is that I was already working on this very deeply during pregnancy because the depth of femininity that I was experiencing was unlike what I had experienced before.

And I knew that some kind of death was approaching,

But I never in a million years could have imagined it.

It would be that deep and that intense.

And there was this point where,

I mean,

I was journaling a lot and there was this one point where I was writing in my diary asking myself how I would find or what was it basically the redefinition of the strength and the feminine.

And the first examples that I gave were masculine answers.

It was like,

Oh,

It had to do with satisfaction.

Yeah.

So what would bring me a satisfaction?

Whereas the postpartum really showed me,

Okay,

What if you strip yourself from everything?

I mean,

You know,

We're in Thailand,

We hadn't yet fully connected with community here.

So there wasn't even the community outside of us to reaffirm the identity of me because people were still getting to know us.

Had this happened in Peru,

It would have been a different experience for me.

But I really felt like,

Wow,

Even the outside world can't tell me who I am.

Plus I stopped working,

Plus I stopped being the person that I used to find security in.

And I got stripped bare completely from all of these layers,

Basically external layers or layers that are part of the ego or part of whatever we construct from a mental experience of what we think,

Who we think we are or what I thought it meant to be a woman.

And then all of that,

Yeah,

It kind of asked me,

That experience kind of asked me to redefine and really come to the essence of femininity and how to experience the freedom.

That was really what it was about.

Like how to experience the freedom of being in the feminine because a lot of people,

A lot of women,

They cling to this independent archetype for the sense of freedom and they're unwilling to let go of their freedom when it comes to being in a relationship.

And I fully agree with that.

I mean,

Ruwan and I put a lot of emphasis on freedom in our relationship in various ways.

And so I had to go really deep into like,

Okay,

Where do I find that strength?

Where do I find that freedom?

And it really comes down to that timeless space that we keep talking about,

Disconnecting from time completely to be able to be in a state of flow.

And one thing with a newborn is that you can't particularly plan things like it's hard to say,

Oh yeah,

Next Saturday at 11 I'm going to do this because it depends on all these different factors.

So somehow life has to be more in flow and somehow it is the ultimate expression of spontaneity.

Whereas when I was contemplating about this,

I thought I had lost my freedom.

I had lost my spontaneity.

I had lost all of this space to basically just jump and do what it is that I want.

Whereas,

I mean,

Obviously life is,

We have to approach it with more of a creative approach of how to do these things,

But ultimately the freedom is experienced in flow.

And maybe you can add to this because I don't want it to sound too airy fairy.

It kind of relates to a thing we've been talking to a lot about,

There are concentric circles in a family of many kinds of polarity.

I talked about this with Mac Lethal when he was on the podcast a few weeks ago.

It's kind of like the nursery rhyme,

The farmer and the dell.

The farmer takes the wife,

The wife takes the child.

And it's like there are these relationships where each point has something they're providing the perimeter for and one that they're also within the perimeter of.

So baby is the most feminine entity.

She's the most receptive.

Her feelings kind of have to be responded to because we can't plan for them.

We can't control them.

Like you just said,

We can't plan to be somewhere at a certain time on Saturday because we don't know how she's going to feel.

And then her feelings dictate our actions,

Mainly you because you're mostly with the baby.

So you're in the young pole or the masculine pole in response to her.

But then your feelings,

Which of course are driven by her feelings in many ways,

I need to respond to because I'm providing the container around both of you economically,

But also with everything.

And then there's containers beyond us that are maybe more abstract,

Like spiritual and whatever.

But that's basically the family.

I provide the container for you.

You provide the container for baby.

There's that directionality,

Which I think is the piece that people only look at,

Typically the superficial side of like,

Okay,

I'm making decisions for us and you're making decisions for baby.

That means we have power.

But the other way there's an exchange.

It's not a symmetrical exchange.

It's not exactly the same,

But there is an equal exchange where and you can't say that you're dominating baby,

Right?

You're responding to her emotional needs.

Well,

This is,

I think,

A really interesting perspective because very often the feminist likes to look at things through the lens of the power dynamic and looking at who is stronger or who has more power,

Whether this is something that happens consciously or unconsciously.

It's all about kind of what you said about,

Oh,

This guy picks up the check and therefore what do I need to give in return?

It's kind of like,

Oh,

You give,

So I give.

Where is this transactional way of being in relation as opposed to,

Okay,

What do I give that is very unique to my strength and what is it that you give?

And yeah.

And there is an exchange,

Even though I don't think you shouldn't.

I mean,

It's not useful to look at it as a transaction because transactions mean that you're two separate entities,

But if you're an interdependent unit or like you're a combined unit,

There is like an internal exchange where like,

Yes,

I'm making decisions and technically,

Yes,

I have power over our family,

Right?

I control all the money and other material things,

But your feelings like you would then also baby through you determines what I choose to do and like why I would make a certain decision.

And this is the thing that,

I can only say this from the outside,

This is something I would want our daughter to know growing up and I would hope all women,

And I've only seen this as from a man's perspective,

But like how much a woman in her feminine can actually in a sense control what the masculine does.

And it's not about,

I mean,

I don't know what language to use.

It doesn't make it sound like power plays,

But it is influence,

Right?

Like when you are say getting off on something or like you're really appreciating something,

I want to do it.

Like I want to do the thing,

Even if it's something that requires a lot of effort,

Like a household task or making money for our family,

Like when I feel the positive reward of your feelings,

Which you and baby again are the source of,

It makes me want to do things.

And it's like,

Yes,

You do give me a lot of power in our relationship and,

But your energy,

If you will,

Or like the feelings you give me make me really want to use that power for our good.

So maybe I can translate it differently because funny enough,

I was about to make the same point,

But use different words.

I was going to use the words of like,

How does the feminine really take the lead in a polarized partnership?

And I wanted to make that point because we have talked a lot about parenthood and family life.

And I think there's a lot of people who aren't there,

You know,

But are looking at how to balance a partnership in a way that,

Yeah,

Both the man and woman can really shine in,

In their essence.

So what I wanted to say is like,

You know,

Women,

It's not about stopping to take initiative or stopping to have all these qualities that are part of your masculine because me too,

I have them,

But when it comes to polarizing the power and the way that the woman takes the lead is by being open.

And it's kind of,

It's not taking the lead and I guess the superficial sense where you're making,

It's like almost like you,

You make a certain decision or a certain set of decisions feel good for him to decide,

Which is what you wanted.

And then that's what ends up happening.

And then this might seem like a spiritual ideal,

Right?

Because obviously there are various dynamics where say a woman is really appreciating a certain something and the guy does something else that's selfish.

And of course that's going to happen,

But it seems to be,

And you know,

It maybe seems like a mystical idea that if you really appreciate what you want in advance,

I'm going to do it.

And of course it's not always the case,

But that is how healthy interdependent polarity works.

Yeah.

And so the woman being open,

It sounds really fragile,

But it is the ultimate state of power.

And so I want to look at this from the two perspectives of,

You know,

Me being open when I'm happy and loving.

And obviously that gives a lot of energy to you,

But we have had a lot of conversations as well as what does it mean to be open when I'm down?

So for example,

When the baby is having a bad night or I feel completely depleted or whatever,

You know,

It's like how to then be depressed,

But still be open or be angry and be open,

Or actually I've come to notice that it's impossible to be angry and open at the same time.

The anger usually comes because of some kind of contraction.

And so it's kind of interesting to see the influence that happens because obviously we want our partner to be in their best and the way that the woman can contribute to harmonizing and polarizing the relationships,

Just be open regardless of what goes on.

You can be angry,

You can be sad,

You can be depressed,

You can be happy,

You can be loving,

You can be horny,

You can be whatever,

As long as you're open.

And it's,

It's like really beautiful to play with that energy.

And obviously we've had quite a bit of practice,

But it's like we're getting closer and closer and closer to like having more longer periods in which that is just a constant.

And it's so energizing even in the days that are depleting.

And I want to say something because I used to coach women a lot and I don't much at all anymore,

But I did,

I mean once in a while and I did coach a woman recently who's dealing with this kind of dynamic.

And my suggestion to her was essentially this,

Like she didn't trust her man who she loves to do the things that were right.

But I told her like,

The only way this is going to work is if you give him the space and you're open essentially to give him a chance to do what's right.

Because if you do it for him,

Your relationship's going to fail.

If you're open,

There is a chance that he doesn't do it right.

And then you have to decide,

Okay,

Am I going to give him a chance for how long?

Hopefully you do give him a chance,

Especially,

You know,

If this is a new kind of dynamic you're entering,

But that's the only way it's going to work because otherwise you're not actually connected.

Yeah.

And I kind of want to approach this from,

Or talking towards men.

Cause I mean,

We've talked a lot about women and two women,

It seems,

Or,

But it's also interesting to see like,

Okay,

What kind of tip can we give the men who perhaps are dating someone who's very independent and strong and you do feel attracted to this woman for these qualities and you see the potential,

Like kind of like what you were saying about me,

Like you see the openness and the trust that is there,

But,

But how to basically push her a little bit into that.

I wanted to give the example of,

I remember when you and I were conversing a lot,

I mean,

Obviously we were on different continents.

So a lot of it was audio messaging.

And I told you that one of the qualities I appreciated was stubbornness.

And you said it was the first time you'd heard a woman say that.

And I explained to you that in my language in Dutch,

The,

The,

The word stubbornness,

And it basically means like to have your own wisdom.

And there's something about stubbornness that is like,

I know what I believe in.

I know what I value and you know,

I can appreciate and respect what you believe.

And here's my truth.

And I really love that.

And I also said that the thing that I want sometimes is a little bit of resistance or a little bit of challenge or a little bit of a push.

And I think there is a lot of like strong women who know their truth,

Who are intelligent,

Who know what they believe in that really,

Really,

Really crave that in a relationship,

Particularly from a man.

And they even test the man sometimes to bring that out.

And many men fail those little tests and end up agreeing with their woman because they just want to please her,

But then they lose their masculinity.

And then she feels like she's in the power spot and she loses interest because she just wants to soften and she wants to see your strength.

Anyway,

You can compliment whatever.

Yeah.

Well,

I guess I haven't spoken too much on that because that's what most episodes on my podcast have to do,

But I'm happy to share.

And actually,

I kind of forgot you said that,

But now I'm remembering.

And actually one of the things I appreciate about,

I guess we could say I appreciate about your masculine side,

Ironically,

Is that even when you are emotional and maybe being difficult,

Very often you call yourself out of like what you're doing.

Like there's many times you've been emotional and being like,

You've kind of like said as like a sidebar,

Like this is not really about us or about you,

Just like don't take it personally.

And like those moments,

Because even I forget,

I can say all these principles,

But in the moment when I'm with you,

A woman who's very emotional and irrational and I'm like,

Fuck,

I mean,

Of course I have limited patience,

Of course.

Those little things of like,

Oh,

She's still saying,

I said this to you recently,

Like the other day,

It's like,

Oh,

Even though she's super emotional,

She's still aware of what's actually going on and therefore,

You know,

This is just going to pass.

And that's something that's always given me willingness to engage in our difficult moments.

Great.

I'm also willing to engage in our difficult moments.

Yeah.

Cause I mean,

You know,

I've had,

I think many men have had these experiences where it's not that where it seems like,

Oh,

Is this like a never ending onslaught of like past trauma stuff coming up?

Like,

Is this going to be forever?

Like that's a thought I've had in past relationships,

Like in difficult moments,

Like fuck it's like,

Is this going to be forever?

If so,

I'm out of here.

Yeah.

I actually see it as one of our strengths.

Um,

The way that we can move through difficulty,

Like it's all just in flow.

It really is just like,

Okay,

We say to things that are hard to say,

We express ourselves shamelessly and without guilt and we hear each other and we respond in ways that are sometimes difficult for the other to hear.

And that's it.

That's the end of it.

Yeah.

Cause we have our conflicts,

We have our fights,

But they have a very quick turnover.

Like they never get dragged out,

I guess because of that mutual trust that we've developed so far.

We're like,

Even I,

Even for my end,

Even at your worst,

Right.

I'm like,

Oh,

This is not going to last that long.

Right.

So of course we can endure.

I do want to say what you're saying about,

You know,

Being stubborn and it's like my,

My,

You know,

I've other episodes that focus specifically on helping a woman into her feminine,

But you have to,

This is from a man's side,

You have to prove to the woman that you can handle the external functions better than her.

Because if she at any point thinks that she's the stronger one,

Then why should she surrender with you?

And that's,

That's basically the,

That's just the simple answer.

And I think,

You know,

For both,

It does take two to tango.

It's like your level of surrender has inspired me to put in the effort to offer my masculine function to our relationship.

And I think that's been a positive feedback loop between us where you can go deeper into your feminine.

I can go deeper into my masculine.

Neither one of us feel like we're getting screwed because the other person is holding up their end of the,

The interdependent exchange.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have had times where I felt like,

What?

I've already sacrificed so much.

I've already done so much work.

I've already,

You know,

Connected to these like deeper layers of the feminine and there's more and I'm being asked for more and there's more and more and more like I have had moments like that,

But actually it's like the most beautiful journey ever.

But I just wanted to admit that because it's like,

It's,

It's so different to all those years that I've lived as an independent free woman,

Traveling the world and constructing different businesses and doing whatever it is that I wanted and taking the lead on that.

And now I really find a freedom in allowing you to take the lead and it's really like a desire.

It like,

It just gives me so much space and warmth and to be me.

Yeah.

Something you've said a few times in those moments that have,

I guess,

Given me a greater sense of responsibility have been you saying that you haven't been this dependent on a man since your father when you were a child and that feel that has always felt significant.

If like,

Oh,

This is like a really important level of vulnerability and I better,

I better take care of it.

Yeah.

It's really like touched me in different ways in very intricate ways that I never expected,

But especially postpartum,

It was like,

I could not believe that it was 100% dependency on you.

And then,

And then the baby of course on me.

Um,

And you know,

Having to stay in bed,

Having to stay indoors,

I mean to respect the process of healing and all of that.

But it was very,

Very confronting.

And now that pieces have fallen into place and we are really just an incredible team,

The way that we're,

You know,

Practicing to be parents and learning and growing.

I,

Yeah,

I don't see that part coming up so much anymore,

But the deep conversations we've had were in which I realized like,

Yeah,

That feeling,

No,

It's like,

Like being a child,

Like being so free because there is that male presence.

And I think it's the most beautiful thing when we can achieve that in a relationship.

Yeah.

And you've brought up this,

Uh,

Example,

I think more with parenting of like,

Uh,

A child can play more freely when they know there is a gate.

Oh yeah.

This is the,

Um,

Yeah.

The,

What is it?

Freedom in confinement.

It's like this paradox understanding.

There was this experiment that they had done with,

Um,

Toddlers,

Uh,

One of the experiments in which they put a group of toddlers,

Like free in a park,

Like quite a big net natural space to just roam around and play and do whatever it is that they wanted.

Um,

And what happened is they all kind of hoard it together and hid under a tree just to kind of feel safe.

Whereas if they put a fence around a particular area of land,

The toddlers actually felt safe enough to go explore all the corners,

Um,

Within,

Within whatever space they got to explore.

And this is what obviously can happen in a relationship that has those boundaries set really clearly,

Um,

In order for us to really explore our freedoms together,

Um,

Basing them on our core values and the way that we respect each other and the way that we clarify,

Like,

How do we contribute and it not being this transaction,

But rather what are our qualities and how can we help each other shine in the qualities that we bring so that both of us contribute to the foundation that we build?

Yeah.

So it's like,

Uh,

I think this is a difficult reframe for a lot of people,

Especially men that it's actually a gift you're giving a woman to give some sort of boundaries,

Whether it's,

Uh,

Being stubborn that you're not going to take a certain amount of shit actually makes her feel safer,

But also creating either,

Uh,

Well,

I guess a metaphoric perimeter around the family or the relationship.

Um,

And I do want to say on the other end,

Because we've been mostly speaking about the vulnerability of a woman,

You know,

There is the fear of a man,

I guess the more traditional fear of like,

Say,

You know,

I guess in more modern parlance is like being cuckolded.

Like he's,

Uh,

Offering his provider abilities to a woman who's either not gonna,

Who's not going to deliver her end.

Like she's not going to appreciate it.

She's,

I mean,

The extreme would be,

She has some other man's baby after taking his money,

That kind of thing.

Like that's like that.

I mean,

That is the deepest among the deepest vulnerable male fears the men have.

And it is,

Yeah,

It is the give and take,

Right?

You know,

There's vulnerability on both sides and you can,

Regardless of who you are in the relationship,

You can reduce the fear of your partner by willingly and boldly bringing your end to the table.

And that requires the man to always be extremely authentic and real in whatever it is that he needs to express.

Because before we started,

I kind of just like went through my pages in my diary and I found this part where I was speaking directly to this point where very often I feel you so deeply and it often remains in this like abstract form unless we like talk certain things through.

And this topic has come up in different occasions where it's like,

Not that you have wanted to protect me,

But I could sense that some part of the truth wasn't completely there because of whatever remaining memories of past relationships or whatever reasons we carry for not wanting to be as direct.

Like not wanting to hurt you with the truth.

Exactly.

Whereas it's that level of vulnerability and openness that I demand from my man in order for me to remain open.

Because it's like,

It's,

Yeah,

It happens simultaneously.

Like the woman cannot be the one who is open when the man isn't vulnerable to that same extent.

And yeah,

It requires that level of truth.

And that's what I mean by,

I mean,

I always call it true love when we are really truthful in a love relationship because yeah,

Truth can hurt sometimes,

But when that truth is there always from both parties,

Then ultimately we know what our trust is based on.

Yeah.

Any last words?

I think she has something to say.

Okay,

Great.

Good job,

Baby.

That's your first recorded sounds.

Okay.

Well,

We're going to leave it at that.

Cool.

Well,

Thanks for coming on.

We should do it again sometime.

Yeah.

Thanks for inviting me.

Nice to see you again.