Love Vs Romance | Ashley Jordan & Saqib Rizvi

Hello and welcome everyone.

I'm here with my friend Ashley Jordan and today we are going to discuss a very significant topic which I believe is significant to everybody's life and that topic is romantic love versus spiritual love.

Now the first question or maybe a thought that might come into your head is that why are we segregating between romantic love and spiritual love and Ashley and I,

We have had long conversations regarding this and we came to realize that there is a significant difference between romantic love and spiritual love and that's what we are going to explore.

Ashley,

Good to have you.

It's great to be here,

Saqib.

This has been a while in the making so I'm excited to have our first chat to share sort of what we've learned on our respective journeys about the distinction between romantic love and sort of what we see in media and sort of what we're conditioned to think about love and partnership particularly versus true spiritual love and aligned partnerships.

Absolutely.

So,

You know,

Right away if we get into it,

What do you feel is romantic love?

So maybe we can first talk about,

You know,

Romantic love because that's how we,

You know,

That's what we have believed in the sense that that romantic love is true love and but,

You know,

I think we had this discussion before that there are a lot of misconceptions there.

So what for you,

Maybe not now,

But what has been in the past romantic love?

So the earliest memory,

I think,

For me about romantic love and sort of where these,

You know,

Conceptions came from was I have this memory of me at about five or six years old in the back of my parents' car and I was probably in kindergarten or first grade.

I remember thinking,

I can't wait to be 16 because when I'm 16,

I can have a boyfriend.

And my little self-associated,

I could have a boyfriend with I could have love,

Right?

And like that boyfriend will come and save me.

And I think even from a lot of the movies that,

You know,

I grew up on the Disney movies,

There is often the male character who comes in,

You know,

Sweeps the female character off her feet,

Right?

And they live happily ever after and it's all they need.

And so I think that was my belief that romance was love.

And what I've realized,

You know,

Through a really hard journey at times was that nobody was coming to save me.

And I needed to learn how to find wholeness in myself and to save myself,

To find a truly alive partnership that will last the test of time versus intensity,

Right?

That is fleeting and burns out fast.

It's really fascinating what you said,

You know,

And I'm really,

Really curious about what you said about like saving me.

So when you mentioned saving me,

What is that saving?

Like what are you or maybe at that time,

A girl of your age would want to be saved from or,

You know,

What is that expectation there?

I think for me,

It was,

You know,

Growing up and feeling not loved unconditionally,

Not feeling a lack of love early on in my life.

And so naturally,

From what I saw in movies and stuff,

My little self was like,

Well,

That will be resolved when somebody,

You know,

When a man comes.

And so that is something that,

Yeah,

I think I associated it with like my life will be,

So I will be so happy when someone comes to love me.

And also,

You know,

Coming from deep insecurity and also feeling like if some,

That man will come and he will love me so much that I won't have to,

It doesn't matter if I love myself,

Like if he loves me,

I will know I'm lovable.

And that I realized much later in life was absolutely untrue.

Yeah.

Hard truth hitting us.

So I'm curious though,

For you,

What have you learned about,

What were your earliest conceptions of romantic love?

Yeah,

I would say because we have like a cultural difference.

So I was born and raised in India.

And in India,

The idea of romantic love,

Although there are similarities,

But I would say is different in the sense that it is tied into marriage.

And from,

You know,

From the very childhood,

The conditioning is that whoever you meet,

You know,

In your life as a romantic partner,

That person has to become your life partner.

And so there is always this,

You know,

Even in children,

In India,

There is this idea of meeting others with the,

You know,

With this kind of a future goal,

Which is marriage.

And I think that's a very cultural thing because Indian culture gives a lot,

As you might already know,

You know,

That gives a lot of importance to marriage.

And maybe not really the,

You know,

Not that much importance to the idea of how a relationship is.

And this is something which,

You know,

Has a lot of,

I would say,

Downsides.

I don't see many upsides to this.

The downside is that if as a child,

You know,

I'm meeting a girl,

I am not present in that moment.

I'm not,

You know,

I'm not really looking at what is here now between us in this relationship.

The girl,

The boy,

They are so much conditioned,

You know,

By the family.

And I'm not saying that that is something wrong or there is deliberate conditioning or,

You know,

There is a propaganda there.

But what I'm saying is that this is culture,

This is tradition.

And due to this culture tradition,

That's how even children see each other.

And that is a very future oriented mind rather than the present moment love experience.

So that was one of the issues.

But that being said,

There were a lot of moments of like that present moment love that I'm talking about.

But then it would also,

You know,

The relationships in our teenage,

They would become something which is,

You know,

Based on the idea,

Okay,

Will this relationship continue and,

You know,

Kind of end up in a marriage and that expectation would lead to problem in even our teenage relationships.

So that is more of a like a general,

You know,

Idea in India.

And that being said,

Things in India are changing now.

But if I talk about,

So that was kind of a general idea.

But if I talk about myself,

I would because of this conditioning,

I would see whoever,

You know,

I would meet as a potential,

You know,

Kind of a partner or a romantic partner,

I would start seeing them as my life partner,

Even in my teenage.

And that was,

I think one of the upsides to that is the seriousness of the relationship that you,

That I was very into the relationship.

And I would,

I was very committed to those relationships.

But at the same time,

I think the more downside was that it was very future oriented.

And it led to a lot of expectations.

And when there are a lot of expectations,

As we discussed,

You know,

Previously that it kind of affects the love in a relationship.

So,

Yeah,

That was the experience.

So I know this is like a big cultural difference.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's interesting,

Though,

I think,

I think the conditioning for women isn't,

You know,

Here is not so different.

Like,

I think we were programmed to think that sort of,

Even this day and age that the penultimate of female existence,

Even if it's a subconscious thing,

Is marriage and motherhood.

And so thinking very young,

Like,

When will I get that ring?

Right.

And like,

It's not just about getting the ring,

But the big,

Beautiful ring.

And the,

You know,

When is my Prince Charming coming?

And what I realized in my own journey is once I got all those things,

They did not,

You know,

Sure,

In the moment,

They felt great,

But it was fleeting.

It didn't last.

Right.

And so I had to learn to,

It was a rude awakening to get to almost midlife and realize that I wasn't fulfilled by this externally perfect life that I had built.

Right.

That I was supposed to arrive at the place that the fairy tale of romantic love had promised,

And it wasn't there.

And so it was like,

Well,

Where is it?

And so I think,

You know,

I didn't understand that romantic love wasn't even the kind of partnership my soul was seeking.

It didn't know the difference.

I didn't know there was something outside of that,

Actually.

And when you say that romantic love was,

You know,

That's what your soul was like,

That is something that your soul was not seeking.

The romantic,

What is that?

You know,

I think the main question that arises now is that,

What is romance?

When we talk about,

You know,

We talk about romantic relationships and it's almost like an umbrella category,

But I think we both,

You know,

Read this wonderful book by Robert A.

Johnson,

We Understanding the Psychology of Romantic Love.

And,

You know,

I don't know about you,

And I want to know,

You know,

How it affected you.

But to me,

I think the first realization was that there's a big difference between romance and love.

And that is something that I,

You know,

We usually in our society,

We use it as a synonymous thing that,

You know,

Romance is love and love is romance.

We,

Yeah,

We do that maybe,

You know,

If we do segregate it in a way that,

Okay,

Love is a broader category,

Because,

You know,

We love our parents as well,

We love our friends as well.

But maybe romance is,

You know,

With this one person,

Who is a romantic partner.

But even in that,

I would say that,

You know,

There is,

I found that when we say that I love my partner versus I have a romance with my partner,

There's a big difference in that.

And we use the term love very loosely.

But I think what the author was mentioning that most relationships actually have romance,

But they do not have love in them.

And so,

I would love to know from you that,

You know,

What is your,

What is your,

What is or what was,

If you want to talk in a historical context,

Was your idea of romance?

So I think it was the idea of falling in love,

Right?

And it was the difference between I love you,

Which I think is spiritual love,

And I am in love with you,

Right?

Like I,

For me,

Those two things,

Because of the connotations are different.

And so it was about being in love,

Versus really knowing how to love myself deeply,

And then extend that to a partner.

It was the difference between passion and intensity,

Right?

And fire and those crazy feelings that we feel at the beginning of romantic love,

Versus grounded,

Embodied,

Like I can hold this connection that I'm feeling with someone and not go crazy and abandon myself and everything I care about,

Based on,

You know,

These feelings that are coming up.

So to me,

Romantic love is,

You know,

Grand gestures,

And things that really aren't necessarily part of daily life.

We,

You know,

He took me to the ballet,

He kissed me in the middle of an art gallery,

Right?

Those are lovely.

But to me,

What I've learned is true love,

Embodied spiritual love is showing up every day,

Is hitting growth edges together.

And instead of resorting to old patterns that inflict pain on ourselves and someone else,

Being willing to sit with that person,

Individually,

Like together,

And then individually,

To really look at ourselves,

Right?

And to show up and just say,

I love me,

And I love you so much.

I want to do this with you.

I'm willing to sit in the discomfort to really see myself and my edges,

And continue to meet you there.

Instead of,

You know,

Surrendering to all of the unhealthy patterns that we are often taught in love.

And also to have the maturity to say,

The newness that we experience in the midst of,

You know,

A romantic connection is lovely,

Right?

But it is fleeting.

And sometimes it may not even be totally healthy.

And so,

As I am,

You know,

Sort of feeling that newness with someone,

It was like,

Ooh,

I remember this,

I used to let it carry me away.

And now I say,

Like,

I can feel that.

But then,

You know,

I can be the empowered woman grounded in herself who feels it,

And then says,

Okay,

Now come back to yourself.

Stay here now.

And hold this with wisdom.

You know,

Yeah,

I think you said it beautifully.

And,

You know,

What I'm also hearing from what you're saying,

And I think this is also,

You know,

My understanding of romance is that,

As you said,

Falling in love,

If I'm correct,

You said that falling in love would be more of romance versus I love you would be more true love,

Right?

And so,

I agree with that.

And,

And,

You know,

It's that romantic,

That romance is usually the I would say,

If I have to summarize it,

I would say it's from the ego.

And the ego is involved in that.

And it's all about,

You know,

Me trying to feel good or having some pleasure,

You know,

Or me trying to kind of improve my sense of worth,

By someone,

You know,

By by wanting someone to like me,

Or wanting someone to love me.

It is about it becomes something about,

You know,

Me.

And that's very subtle,

Because you know,

When we say that I'm falling in love,

We might imply that we are falling in love with that person.

But what we don't realize is that,

You know,

That it's it's about me,

I am falling in love,

The I is stronger in the heart.

And it's,

I want to feel something,

Some emotion,

Which is,

You know,

Which is like a exotic emotion.

And,

And to feel that emotion,

I am,

You know,

Seeking some person,

I'm seeking an external person who can give me that importance,

Who can,

You know,

Take care of me,

And who can,

As you previously said,

Save me,

You know,

All those feelings.

And this,

This is egoic,

You know,

This is ego,

This is,

Is not really love.

Because for me,

That difference is that in love and true love,

The egos dissolve,

You know,

There is,

There is,

I'm not saying that the ego would completely vanish,

You know,

We are human beings,

We are supposed to have a ego.

But it is not about trying to satisfy that it is not about trying to,

You know,

Seek that pleasure for the ego or,

You know,

Have a lot of desires or attachments from the ego.

So that was like a big aha,

You know,

Moment for me.

And when when I read this book,

But even before that,

In also learning about the story of Rumi and Shams and that,

You know,

That we,

We,

Mostly in our society,

We love from a place,

We do romance,

But we,

We love from a place of ego.

Whereas true love,

You know,

Which,

Which I'm,

You know,

Which I would love to talk about with you and explore with you next,

Is that that is something totally different,

Right?

That is a very different experience.

But yeah,

For me as well,

That,

You know,

In my earlier relationships as well,

It has always been about,

You know,

Okay,

How can I experience romance?

How can I and in that romance they would there's always,

You know,

Whenever there is especially a push and pull dynamic,

You know,

That or there is jealousy or there is possession,

Or there are expectations,

Or,

You know,

All these things,

Then we know it is it is romance and not love.

And initially,

My relationships,

You know,

In life,

Especially in my teenage,

And then,

You know,

Even in my 20s,

Early 20s have been like that,

Till the time I realized that this is,

This is not,

You know,

Bringing that spiritual experience to me,

It's a very egoic experience that I'm having in relationship.

And that that is something which which for me is romance.

Yes,

I completely agree with you.

I love what you said about that push pull dynamic,

Right?

Because I think,

You know,

One thing that really moved me,

And then I wasn't far along enough in my own journey to fully,

Even contemplate,

It sounded nice,

But I couldn't really feel into it at the time was about three years ago,

I was having a romantic experience with someone.

And it had ended and I and I said to this Buddhist monk whose lectures I was attending on a weekly basis,

I said,

You know,

I love him.

And he said,

True love wants nothing but someone else's happiness.

True love wants nothing for itself.

And I remember being like,

Well,

Yeah,

Like,

But,

Like,

I sounded beautiful.

And it's only been in the three years since that I have been able to really understand and embody what he meant by that.

But it's only by embodying the love I have for myself.

Because only when we come into our own wholeness,

Can we step out of the pattern,

The egoic patterns of romantic love and stop seeking wholeness through other people and release expectations and attachments to what will you if I do this for you,

You will give me this,

Right?

And love becomes some sort of,

It's almost like a barter system.

That reminds me,

You know,

There's a there's a rabbi,

His name is Abraham Tversky,

If I'm not mispronouncing his name.

And he,

He talks about something called fish love.

And so he says that,

You know,

We,

We,

For example,

We usually say that,

Oh,

I love fish.

But what what what do we mean by that?

That is the question.

The truth in that is,

I don't we don't love fish.

We love eating fish.

We love to kill that animal and then eat it.

And he said that,

You know,

People in the world today,

Mostly,

You know,

That's what they have.

They have fish love for for the other,

Because it's all about what do you what can you give me?

Right?

And,

You know,

What what can you may do for me?

Or,

You know,

How can you make my life better?

And that is that is not love.

Because love,

You know,

You mentioned that you mentioned you said something about expectations and,

And that's so right,

That love does not have,

You know,

Expectations.

It does not have expectations.

Because if I have expectations,

I'm coming as you said,

Correctly,

I'm coming from a place of lack of wholeness.

I'm not feeling whole,

I'm feeling lack.

And I'm trying to fill that lack,

You know,

With by someone else.

And that is fish love.

And so I just love that term,

Fish love.

And that makes you realize that,

You know,

Especially early on in my life,

That how much love that I was practicing was just was fish love.

I love that.

That is such a great,

Such a great way to,

To think about it.

Most of us only know fish love,

You know.

And so and and I think I have really started the the distinction for me between romantic love and,

You know,

Spiritual love.

Some of that learning for me has come through relationships that will never be romantic.

Some of that for me has come through friendships,

First and foremost,

And sisterhood.

And seeing what it's like for to have people really love me unconditionally.

And without any expectation without like,

A lot of times romantic love is like,

I love you,

Because you do all these other things for me.

That,

You know,

Is great is a really great part of being in a physical body.

Um,

But when you are in a in a friendship,

What I realized is that that love,

Like love is so powerful.

It's just as powerful.

And like they sisterhood started to teach me what unconditional love looks like.

And I'll never forget it.

My very best friend in the world,

Who is,

You know,

My soul sister looked at me and she said,

One day she said,

You know,

Ash,

You want,

She pointed at herself,

You want this,

But with a romantic partner.

And it was like,

Yeah,

I want this,

But with a romantic partner.

And so that is the thing.

It's not romance.

It's love.

So I think this brings us to,

You know,

The ultimate question,

Then that what is,

You know,

To love what is we using the term here,

Maybe spiritual love,

But I would say the spiritual love is just love.

And,

You know,

It is it is it is true love in that sense.

How do we the question arises that how do we then segregate between,

You know,

Romantic love or romance and spiritual love or true love?

Because you see that,

You know,

We have this kind of this when we go into a relationship.

And,

You know,

If I talk about relationships that,

You know,

End up being relationships of partnership in those relationships,

Especially,

We see that there is this kind of a desire for this,

You know,

Push and pull dynamic.

And there is a desire for,

As you said,

You know,

Somebody,

You know,

Kissing me in the middle of the street or something like that.

There is a desire for these butterflies and,

You know,

Orchestra playing around us,

All that great romance.

There is a desire for things being almost like other worldly and not realistic in many ways.

Whereas,

Whereas love would be,

In my understanding,

Would,

You know,

Would come with a certain level of acceptance of reality.

But yeah,

I would like to I will talk about that later.

But I would love to ask you first that,

You know,

What then for you is spiritual love or true love?

To me,

Spiritual love and true love is,

Is not,

You know,

I learned for myself that intensity,

Right?

Fire,

Passion,

Like I said earlier,

You know,

It is,

It's blinding,

It's exhausting,

Right?

We lose ourselves in that.

And it burns out.

It doesn't last that I'm so in love.

At some point,

You will,

I am no,

I am no longer in love with him.

Because you were only in love,

You never loved each other.

And I think that love,

Love is quiet,

Right?

It is not showy.

It is not.

And I and I'm going to use the example of,

You know,

Wedding culture here,

Right?

They are productions,

Right?

Like,

This is my fairy tale wedding.

And when I only knew romantic love,

That is exactly what I wanted.

I wanted the big production.

I wanted everyone to see how much,

You know,

We love each other.

And now,

You know,

When I partner again,

If we choose to do,

You know,

Something public as a commitment,

To honor commitment,

Or just our love for each other,

What I feel is I could care less how it looks.

It's not about how it looks.

That's the ego.

It's about how it feels.

And it hopefully feels steady,

Safe,

Secure,

Grounded,

Real,

And quiet,

Peaceful.

It is real love is peaceful.

It's not going to cause you to lose your mind.

And so I think that's the difference.

You know,

Romantic love is,

He kissed me under the full moon.

He kissed me in the art gallery.

It's,

Oh my gosh,

What I'm with him is just fire.

And embodied love is like,

Wow,

I really like this person.

I feel really good in his presence.

I want to learn about him.

Right?

I want to get to know him.

Let's go for a walk,

You know,

And let's and let's see,

You know,

Versus I just met my true love today.

I think that true love,

Spiritual love is a lot more mature,

Frankly,

Than romantic love.

Yeah,

I'm mature and long lasting.

And I feel that,

You know,

It lasts long,

Because that intensity,

As you said,

You know,

Is not there,

Like,

It might be there in the beginning,

You know,

Which,

Which is okay.

But that relationship is not dependent on that intensity.

Because,

You know,

What I have,

You know,

Learned from my experience in relationships is that the more intensity there is in the beginning,

The faster the relationship comes to an end.

Have you experienced that?

Sakip,

Yes.

110%,

My friend,

I have.

And I had to learn that the hard way.

I mean,

I really thought I met my person.

And like,

Oh,

My gosh,

This is what I prayed for.

This is what to meet this person.

Like it is fire and passion.

And,

You know,

We know from day one,

Like,

You know,

And no,

No,

It was romantic love.

It was.

And I would say in that experience,

I remember saying to my friends,

I have had the most romantic dates of my entire life with this man.

And that was true.

I had had the most romantic dates with that man.

But when it came to devotion,

That wasn't there.

Intensity does not equal devotion.

And I think that that is a key difference between romantic love and spiritual love.

Yeah,

Here,

Here,

It's,

You know,

The,

That is what I and it feels true to me,

Whatever you're saying.

And it's the,

You know,

That love spiritual love for me,

I think one of the very prime factors for that would be the dissolving of the ego,

Right?

Rather than saying,

Why are you not doing this to me?

Or why are you not giving me love?

Or,

You know,

You should do this for me.

It's about us.

It's about us.

First of all,

It's it's not about me or you.

And I feel there's a dissolving of that the feeling of separation in spiritual love.

And it becomes about,

Okay,

How can we how can we,

You know,

Live a good life?

How it's it becomes about how can we also not only think about ourselves,

But make the world a better place.

And I think that's so important,

Because I have noticed this that when we see relationships,

Which are all about each other,

You know,

And that I'm into that woman or that woman is into me.

And we are so much into each other that we are not at all considering others,

We are not thinking about others.

And what happens there is that at some point of time,

There will be a saturation of,

You know,

This desire of wanting to do things for each other and not for others.

Because how long can you,

You know,

How long can you only think about yourself and your partner,

There has to be something bigger than us in a relationship.

And that's where I feel the beauty of a spiritual partnership comes in where,

You know,

Two people are together,

But they are serving the universe,

They are serving the universe and they are,

It's not only about them.

And,

You know,

There is also a curse,

There's also a certain like reality to the relationship.

Because,

You know,

In my earlier times,

I would feel okay,

Why does not this relationship have has intensity,

You know,

There should be intensity,

As you said,

There should be fire.

And,

But now,

As you correctly said,

It's about peace.

Now it's about okay,

How can I,

You know,

Be peaceful with this person?

How can I meditate with this person?

How can I,

You know,

Have a longer relationship versus a shorter and an intense relationship?

Maybe,

Maybe not that a relationship that is not that intense,

But has more stability.

And I think that what,

You know,

That word for me is really important now in a relationship that stability,

Because if that stability is not there,

If my grounding is not strong in a relationship,

Then yeah,

It,

It shakes up things and then it's not in love,

Then it's only romance.

And I think that's such a great point,

Because stability comes by stability can only come by the level of stability you've created for yourself within yourself first.

And then I think it's,

What is the foundation then for this relationship that we are building together,

Right?

And,

And I think that a true solid foundation with someone is built piece by piece,

Brick by brick,

Day by day.

And so even that feeling of,

You know,

Love at first sight,

Which I fully believed in.

And,

And there is some truth to that.

Like I'll say my very best friend in the world,

Like the second time I met her,

I felt,

I wanted to say,

I love you because there was this deep knowing,

Right.

And,

And I was right.

But what I'll say is like,

That was a feeling of connection,

Right?

The love comes by the relationship that you build with someone after that feeling,

You know,

The feeling is fleeting,

But love is built on a firm foundation.

Yes,

Yes,

Absolutely.

Well said,

Well said.

And,

You know,

I absolutely loved having this conversation with you.

And,

You know,

If maybe let's just kind of,

You know,

Take this moment to kind of summarize that what,

You know,

What it is,

That is love for us.

So if you,

If I ask you that,

You know,

And you can answer this in any context,

Maybe in the context of,

You know,

What you're looking forward to in the future,

Or what is there for you in the present.

But what is now,

If you have to summarize,

Then what is love for you?

I think that love is,

For me,

Now,

Love is wholeness reflected within,

Reflected without,

Right?

So it is the wholeness,

The stability,

The safety,

The security,

I have learned painfully,

By the way,

Through some really hard lessons in romance,

That I have cultivated in myself to become more myself than ever.

And to really stop seeking,

You know,

Love outside of me,

And instead allow love to just be reflected back to me and someone else.

And so when I feel that feeling with someone,

That instant energy of,

Right,

We know it.

But then it becomes,

Okay,

I'm curious,

Let's see,

Right?

And I,

I can't know who you are,

From a feeling that I have,

No matter how intoxicating the feeling,

We're going to show each other who we are,

Experience by experience,

Day by day,

Brick by brick,

And build something solid and stable,

That protects our individual peace,

And each other,

Each other's peace and doesn't dim each other's light with conditions or expectations or egoic,

You know,

Seek trying to feed the ego through one another,

But instead,

Empowers each of us to burn more brightly in the world and serve on a deeper level.

That is what love is to me now.

Amen to that.

Yeah,

For,

I would say for me,

Love is being really one.

Because,

You know,

We usually have this idea of being two in a relationship,

But being really one.

And I would,

I would also agree with you on the part where,

You know,

That it starts with us,

It starts with us.

If I am not feeling whole in myself,

If I feel something is lacking within myself,

And I need the other to,

You know,

Complete that,

That is,

I think,

A very flawed premise for a relationship.

Because nobody else can complete me,

Nobody else.

And I think that's where the problem lies with the word better,

You know,

With the term better half.

I'm not half.

So the other is not my better half.

In fact,

The other is my better full,

And I'm full.

And I love that.

And so,

And so,

To make sure that whatever I'm seeking,

You know,

I find it within myself.

And when I go into a relationship,

I go from a place of sharing that versus seeking something.

And that I think that would be for me,

Love.

And that is,

You know,

That is something I look forward to in my life now.

I love that.

And I just want to,

I'm going to take better full.

I love that.

But it also reminded me in what you said,

That what you just said,

That is true love wanting nothing for itself,

Because it doesn't need anything.

It simply wants to be with someone else,

Right,

Not seek from someone else.

Yes.

Wonderful,

Wonderful.

Totally enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you,

Ashley.

Thank you,

Saqib.

It was a pleasure as always.