by Lou Ionis
Join leadership coaches Lou Ionis (WPCC, PCC) and Feroshia Knight (MA, MCC) for a behind-the-scenes look at this rewarding branch of professional coaching. We’ll delve into individual case studies that highlight the daily experience of a leadership coach, as well as the tools required for success.
Transcript
Hey, This is Lou with IONIS Whole Person Leadership Development and Coaching. And thank you for joining me for this episode of the Leader Manager podcast. This is a special episode with well renowned master certified coach, Ferosha Knight. She was seeking to dive deeper into understanding what both leadership and executive coaching is and the differences between them. Ferosha is a creator of widely developed systems for personal and professional development used by individuals, Businesses and organizations throughout the world. She's an author, Motivational speaker, Advisor and community builder. So let's now jump in to this interview to understand the effectiveness of coaching, Especially as a leader and as an executive. Welcome everyone. Before we jump in, I would like to introduce Lou as I know Lou, And then I'm going to ask him to talk about him, More of his professional background and what got into coaching and then go from there. But one of the things that I really appreciate about Lou is he came in from corporate America, You know, Kind of in the more technical project manager leadership way. And what I felt like from the get go was he really knew that there was something more, There was a transformation, A potential that was more around the human potential and in particular, The whole person. And I just have to say, I've always appreciated that Lou has been really able to take the method of whole person coaching and really make it his own, But also do something that I think is rare in our world, You know, Really reach into someone and help them to find that leader within. And so he's got a very holistic approach that is not only professional and comes from his background in corporate, But it really meets the person with who they are and what matters to them. And so I hope I didn't embarrass you, But Lou, I'd love if you would talk about maybe your background and take the lead. Yeah, No, Thank you. Thank you, Ferosha. That's such kind words. And I appreciate the invite to come and speak today because any opportunity that I get to sit with you is definitely an honor. So thank you. Yeah, For me, Coaching was something that was like 20 years in the making. I just didn't realize it until so much later in life. Because my work experience spans so many different industries. And like you mentioned in corporate America, Whether it be in technology, Manufacturing, Supply chain, Finance, Education, Product creation, It was all over the place. But it really wasn't until I was a people manager that I really realized my true calling. And it was to unlock people's potential. I mean, It was really clear to me when I began to yearn for that one-on-one time with people, My direct reports with peers, And all I really wanted to do was develop them, Mentor them, Seek ways to remove their roadblocks. And it became less and less interesting to do my functional job. And so at that point, It was, I think I'm really a coach. And now looking back, It's like, Oh, For my whole career, All the times that I was actually truly happy was the times where I got to hold the role of coach within the role that I was holding. And now I get to do it 100% of my life every day, Every week. And I love it. And so, Yes, I never miss all the corporate stuff. More so I appreciate everything that I gathered along the way because that definitely feeds into my ability to coach and help continue to unblock people. So yeah, That's how I got here. Yeah. And it's interesting, Lou, Because I was witness to your process of moving from being gainfully employed in the corporate arena to taking that chance to go out on your own and then come back and serve as an external coach. And I just really want to recognize that's a big transition. And I love that you said you took so much of what you've learned and now you're leveraging it, But you also are doing it your way. Right. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So our topic today is whole person leadership coaching. And one of the things that Lou and I talked about is maybe delineating what that looks like because there's a lot of terms we hear executive coaching, Leadership coaching, Team coaching. And from your viewpoint, What would you say are the similarities or the distinctions between kind of those two, Executive and leadership? Yeah. It is such a really good question because often people kind of blur the two together, Talk about them one of the same interchangeably, But there is definitely distinctions between them. And for me, Everyone in an organization can be a leader. And whether it's from the executives at the very top, All the way down to the individual contributors, Everyone can be a leader. So when we talk about leadership coaching, It's creating success in those who interact with people. And so if you're somebody who interacts with a peer, Cross-functional member, A direct report manager, Any level of the organization, Including executives this leadership coaching is really aimed at fostering connections with people, Communication, Effective building, Effective interpersonal skills which then begin to unlock people. And you can definitely be a leader and an individual contributor at the same time. So when I think about executive coaching, This is a bit of a nuance within being a leader. And at the executive level, The coaching there is more aimed at supporting those at the top tier of the organizations. These clients are often at a level where they're tasked with very complex, Multi-layer organizational challenges and there's a drive for growth in the company. And that expands far past just the leadership skills, But more complex relational strategic and influential kind of coaching that has to go on for them to be able to move further and faster. Absolutely. And as you were sharing that, I was thinking about the kinds of conversations I might have with the C-suite versus maybe the middle management or even the employees, Tends to be more outward and organizational. And of course the importance of kind of touching into that internal piece too, But often the competition between all these competing needs and attention everywhere. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. So just from your experience, And I know we've got people in the audience that have had leadership roles, Have had roles where they were influencer. When you think about the role of the coach in relationship to someone, What are some things that maybe a coach might support someone with specifically as a leadership coach versus an executive coach? Can you think of a case study or something that you would like to bring? Yeah, There's so many different examples that just rushed to my head. And one in particular that I feel represents that executive nuance level is a client and we'll refer to him as Michael for M&A. But so in Michael's case, He grew his own company from the ground up and for him, There was no politics. For people underneath him, There probably was, But for him, He just called all the shots and whether it was five people or the 250 people that it grew to, He was the one at the top. And he did very well to a point where his business got bought out for a sizable amount of money, Did well, And this new company wanted to retain him. And sounds good, Sounds wonderful, Beautiful story and now six months later, He's feeling like, Oh no, I'm a small fish now in a big pond where it was the inverse before. And he never had to maneuver in the C-suite. He didn't have to contend with a boss. He didn't have to argue with cross-functional partners. He didn't have to stand up and make, He didn't have to prove himself. And so six months in now he's realizing, Oh, I'm not really, I'm not even a small fish in a big pond. I'm more like a fish out of water. And so he's not sure exactly what to do or how to maneuver in it. And that's where Michael and I began. We really started with identifying, Okay, What are the functional gaps here? Functional gaps, I mean, Just skill sets versus understanding his emotional responses to what is happening around him. And this feeling that he had of being a fish out of water, Was it because he just didn't have the functional skills and he just needed some tools or was Michael just really getting up in his head and his emotion and that was really what was driving. So that was really kind of the starting point of his development. And the coaching within that is a little bit different because of that new level that he had no background or understanding how to maneuver in. And so he was a leader. He was already a leader. He ran his company. He did it all. And now what he was missing was that executive coaching layer and how to maneuver from that relational standpoint and to be able to influence people and then also address the confidence issues, Imposter issues, Things like that that he was having. Well, And you know, That is such a hot topic around imposter syndrome. And I feel like it just grows and grows. And it just reminds me of one of my clients who strangely enough knew they wanted to pivot their company. And interestingly enough, I had all the power to do it. And there was about 500 people in this company. They were married, So husband and wife team, And then they had three other people at the senior leadership. So that was pretty healthy in the sense that they had that. But one person wanted to pivot the whole system and the system itself started to believe that who was the company to make this decision. So it was just a multiple where you get, It's like having four people or five people in the room and one of them starts to doubt themselves and the whole system started to doubt. And unfortunately it nearly cost them their company because they were so stuck in old mindsets and worried about, We don't have the equipment, Who are we to do this? Our clients and our employees know us as X, And it was really sad to just see how mindset plays such a big role. And with that in mind, Talk a little bit more about with this particular client, What were some of the things that you had talked about or brought to life in the conversation and maybe a little behind the scenes of your skills? Ha ha. Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. For part of it is really as a coach is really just instilling a lot of listening skills right up front. There's a lot that this particular person was going through that he didn't quite understand what was going on. He didn't quite understand why he was struggling. He didn't quite understand that there were nuances of roles at that C-level suite that he just didn't even recognize before. He didn't realize that he had to partner with people. And this is where some of the very powerful things that we really worked through was really when he had an idea, When it was his own company, He could just make the decision and go. I mean, That was it. In his new world, He has some really great ideas, But it requires him to partner with people. It requires him to storytell. It requires him to be able to convince and persuade. And so when he would bring in these particular nuggets of things that he really needed to work on, There was a lot of times where we just had to dissect the situation and analogies worked really well with this client. It was really effective to be able to help him see that if he was from another planet and he decided to change the signal light system, Because it was more effective in his planet and he came into a new planet and just wanted to start putting up new lights, That that would cause a lot of havoc in the city. And it's like, No, You need to understand what's happening in your current world and create a bridge to help people along. And so talking through and using analogies and helping him see the effect of his actions to that point and why there was so much resistance and why people weren't following along like they just followed along before. So there was a lot of work there that we did together to help him to see the world bigger than what he was looking at it before. It almost sounds like identity level and what we would call social identity level coaching. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. A hundred percent. Something that comes up often in my coaching is when someone starts to feel that imposter syndrome, It comes out as distrust with other people or systems. And often I'm always looking at like, How do I help their nervous system to feel more at peace so that we can create them into that more prefrontal cortex, That more ability to think through versus react emotionally. And so just curiosity, What brings up that? Have you noticed that in your clients too? Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Imposter syndrome is such an interesting thing because it's so false. It's so false. Yeah. I mean, Yeah, There was another client who started a business with her, With her friends basically and it grew quickly. And before she knew it, She had this title of VP for this company of several hundred people. And she was a VP of operations and she didn't come from operations. She didn't, She didn't get a degree in operations. She just got a just regular business degree. Who says that she's capable to lead the operations function at this company anymore? You know? And so even though she was an expert in every in and out of the company, Knew the processes and procedures, And she knew everything and how everything needed to go, The point of view of the future, The strategy, She had the chops. She didn't feel she did. She looked around and saw, Oh my gosh, This new person we just hired, They have a degree from Harvard. Oh my gosh. I'm not even worthy at all. And Oh my gosh, This person comes from with 20 years of just doing that. And they came from this company titled company. Oh my gosh, I'm not capable. So it's so interesting because people who often feel that imposter feeling there, That is just at the surface below the surface. They have it all. It's all there. And so this particular client, It was just a matter of, Of helping her see that, You know, And helping her understand where are her superpowers and where is her knowledge? Where are the things that she, All the wins and things she created from the past and, And, And demystifying everything that was fogging her up. And so, Yeah, You know, It is so weird. You know, I mean, But to your point, It came out in the weirdest ways to her executive team and, And the strongest thing that came out was that her executive team began to feel doubt in her abilities because that's how she was showing up. She was, It was a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. And so, Yeah, It, Yeah, It's crazy. But yeah, Something that we can definitely, You know, Work with, With coaching and being able to understand where this person's at and have them be able to see within, To know where their strengths are and use that as like the foundation that not only that you go from, But you return to that you build that strong foundation. It's like, Ah, Yes, I'm rooted back. Now let me go back out again. You know? And so that's for that client, That's kind of what we did there too. Beautiful. And I really resonated with what you said about their own doubt started to create doubt from other people. Cause that's kind of what I was speaking to a little bit earlier. It's like, You know, Doubt is infectious. Oh my gosh. If someone is feeling inadequate, Not enough, Fill in the, The, Not, If not, Whatever, Not if blank, You know, That comes out and how they move through the world. And, You know, We witnessed that so much in, You know, Not only their self-talk is the approach, But also their behaviors or, You know, Not taking action or not speaking up or, You know, Getting distracted by their internal chaos as opposed to being able to do their job. You know, And I'm just curious, Cause this came up in another conversation around, You know, Like things that are happening now with all the complexity of the changes of our world, Suddenly everyone going online. I was just curious, Are you noticing anything with your clients and that as well? Yeah. You know, It's interesting. When we first started with COVID and people working from home, It was pretty devastating for a lot of different people at different levels and their situations. And it's interesting because over the past year, Year and a half, I've seen people come out of that, That dip in change that happens where there's that impact. And then people go through this ability to just get to a higher place on the other side and move on. So I saw a lot of people who go through that dip and stay there for a long time. But over the year and a half, I saw people come out. Right. And now what I'm seeing is that people are returning back because companies are mandating changes again, That yes, You're going to come back to work and you are going to be this many days a week or a hundred percent or leading with, Yes, We are not a remote company. So you're coming back and when, Whether people originally wanted it or didn't want working from home, They went through that change and now that's their new reality. And so, Yeah, As, As that model is beginning to morph again, Some companies are saying, You know, Remote first, Beautiful for some people, Beautiful other people, Not so much other people, It's a hybrid and others are like, No, You're coming, You're, You're coming back next week. So, And then on top of that, To mandate that you are coming back and you're proving that you took the vaccine. That one's another one that people are struggling with. Some people are struggling very hard with that one. Yeah. And I think companies are underestimating the impact that that's having on people and the impact of a company forcing employees to change versus bringing people along and having, Helping them through the change. So there's, There's, It's really hard right now, I think for a lot of people. Yeah, I've had several clients who've walked from their 20 year jobs. Cause they're like, No, Cause they suddenly feel, You know, Their story is that, You know, They should have the right, You know, They have personal rights and, You know, We could totally go off on a tangent here, But I think it kind of comes back to the importance of the company being able to really recognize that the people are again, The resources. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent, A hundred percent. So I'm noticing a couple of questions in the chat and I'm going to just go with the one that I think is closest to the self doubt here. And so Dan asked, Do you raise the halo effect to the client's attention itself? For example, Self doubt and their effect on their team. If so, How do you do that effectively? Awesome questions. In other words, How do you, How do you have that conversation? Yeah. Yeah. That is, That's a good question because it's so true. How I show up, People are going to pick up on that. And if I'm showing up in a, In a happy, Grounded way, Then people are going to show up. And so it's just for me it's a matter of having that conversation with a client, Asking them, How do you feel you show up with those around you? How do, What, What, What responses do you feel somebody has when they answer the question, You know, How do I receive that client? I also put it into the client's hands of how do you feel when somebody approaches and is like this with you? And whether it's kind of like, You know, Down in the dumps kind of low mood versus confident versus you know, Often we try to try to cover up how we truly feel and, And that doesn't always work either. So I, I work with the client, Not necessarily to call out what they're doing as much as having them talk through how they show up and how they feel they show up with others around them and how others show up to them and what they can do to influence that and in both sides. And the power of just that, That non-verbals that go on in that process too. Right. Well, I want to echo in I like what you're talking about is, You know, Moving them through different perspectives, You know, What it's like to receive someone that's showing up in this way, You know, How, What, How do you see yourself, You know, And so moving them back and forth, But also more importantly, It's not just a lot of times we talk about shifting into different perspectives around what's being said or done, But really what's the energy of that, You know, Like if someone is, You know, Coming in with a lack of confidence, You know, That has a felt sense to the other people around, You know, Which is, Sounds different than what did you say or do, You know, That really it's like what's going on in the insight again. Right. And yeah, You know, Just thinking back to the last story about this person who was in the operations and the self-fulfilling prophecy, You know, I mean, It's it, You know, I might pick up on it because I know, Yeah, If somebody shows up in this way, They're probably going to be perceived in a certain way. But me just stating that is not necessarily going to resonate with the client. I try to help model or create analogies to have them just come to this, Their own realization and connect their own dots because yeah, You know, It's one of those things that if they can come to figuring that out on their own, It's just so much more powerful. Absolutely. You know, And it kind of brings up how much we are the instrument of change as the coach and how our presence impacts the vulnerability factor, This, You know, Whether they sense safety to kind of explore themselves in new ways and maybe consider other possibilities for themselves. But also coming back to, You know, That the client, They themselves, When they figure it out for themselves, That's the safest and most transformational and longest lasting route because how many times has someone told us don't do X or when you do this, You get Y, But it's not, We don't have that felt of experience of coming to that neural network connection going, Oh my God, When I'm doing this, This is how people treat me. And it reminds me of, You know, A person that doesn't respect themselves won't draw people that respect them, You know, Or if someone that is not working, You know, On their confidence or their competence, Which they're so interconnected, You know, It's like that may be something deeper underneath that maybe we could go to a therapist for, But also just, You know, Having that awareness that that's going on and being able to hear it in a way that you can sense it, Feel it, Know it for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I love how you say awareness because awareness is so important. Once you have awareness, I mean that sometimes, Sometimes just awareness is half the battle, You know, Once you gain that awareness, Awareness is so key. Oh yeah. So our other question is and I think this would be fun to hear from multiple people. Do C-suite clients expect the coach to have C-suite experience themselves? I, Yeah, For, For me I, Yes. There's definitely a level of confidence that your client wants to have. They want to be sure that if I don't have the capability to maneuver in this C-suite thing, I need somebody who understands how the lay of the land goes or how, What are the things I have to contend with? So I do feel it does. I think clients are seeking that now, Whether or not a client, An executive client truly needs a coach with executive experience. No, Not necessarily. You don't have to, To be a coach doesn't mean that you know how to be an executive, An effective pure coach can help unlock anyone in any type of position, Any role, Anywhere in the world. It's a uniform language. Yeah. One just kind of building on that, You know, When you're able to work with kind of the real, The underbelly or the, The core versus the context, You know, You could certainly help, But I think that trust comes in when someone feels like you've traveled the road, Or at least you've been in that road. You know, I've had a different experience because I have not worked, You know, In a C-suite opportunity, But I've had people that were C-suite that championed me into someone else's presence. And so they said, You know, This is your go-to girl. So I was publicly knighted, You know, Fairly early on in my career as the one you need. And so I had someone else's deep vote of approval and confidence that allowed someone to open the door to me. And then once they met me they're like, Oh, She gets me. But I wasn't necessarily in transparency, Always getting the bigger systems like this. I worked in biotech and they would sometimes the jargon alone. Right. Right. Right. You know, I do a lot better with software development, But I was like, You know, Okay. You know, And what I would say as the coach, What I found was I had to manage my expectation of myself to have it all figured out. You know, So it took a different level of listening instead of getting ensnared with tech words and, You know, Listen to like, What is the context? What's what's really going on here in terms of the human element and the relationships and the thinking and the beliefs, Instead of getting caught up on how this company was going to produce this widget and that things, You know. But I think our minds naturally go to tell me more about the environment or this that you do, You know, And then again, That I sometimes feel personally that waste the client's time because, You know, But then also understanding the dynamics of the systems. Right. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to add anyone to that? Oh yeah. The only thing I was just going to add was that I've had already a few clients come to me saying, Yeah, My old coach didn't have experience with SaaS. Okay. SaaS. Okay. I don't know. Crap. Do I have experience with SaaS? I mean, I worked for HP. I worked for technology before. Okay. SaaS. Okay. Okay. Sure. Take the client on. Never once talk about SaaS. Never once talk about their database systems and web interfaces. And no, No, You know, It has nothing to really do with the thing that we're coaching. We're coaching you, You know, Not your company. It's not the function. It's you. So yeah, A hundred percent it's, But it's easy to get drawn into just seeking to understand more and more because you do want to help them and want to connect with them. But yeah, It's, It becomes sometimes a slippery slope for sure. Yeah. Well, As you said, I was thinking about how we go to like a social gathering and the first thing we talk about is what do you do? And it's like, We're looking for some familiarity because that's kind of that first level of like, Okay, This person might get me, You know? And so as the coach, You know, When you go to approach someone, You know, That could be a potential client or you're doing that informational interview with them, Then, You know, What is it that's going to build that trust quickly if you don't know the landscape, You know? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I'm curious. I kind of would like to switch gears a little bit because I think that, You know, We, We talked a little bit about this around, Like, What are companies looking for? And I think we're kind of edging into that in terms of one particular, You know, Segment of the company, The C-suite, But, You know, I think in general, When companies are looking for coaches, Like what are some of the things that you noticed that the company itself, Maybe not the individual, I think that's another conversation is looking for, You know, And so that as a coach, You know, What is it that people would be looking to hire a support, Even though maybe later what we do is a little bit different. Right. Yeah. That's a great question. And I, What I often see as large companies are often attracted to large coaching consulting firms. And so that, That might not, That might not be the right fit. It might be what makes sense to the clients but it all kind of depends on what the client is really looking for, What the company is really looking for. You know, The clients relies on the firm usually to know what's best. If you go with those large consulting firms, You know, The client will be like, Yeah, You know, What's best, You do it. So well, So this is usually your most expensive option when you just hand over all the reins to this company and you say, You know, Go for it. You guys know what's best. You just bring in a whole army of, Of coaches and, And we'll be perfect. And this doesn't necessarily create the highest quality situation. You know, These, These firms will do their best to bring in high quality coaches and, But often at the lowest possible rates. So these coaches, You know, Are that are attracted to consulting firms, You know, Usually are attracted to them because they don't have to deal with the sales and marketing side. You know, But the, The firm often doesn't really, Isn't able to really vet through all of the coaches in a, In a high quality way. They look on paper, Do they have schooling certifications, Previous employments, But not, Not always the actual coaching skills which is really what, What we're doing here is, Is the actual coaching. So this doesn't going, The consulting company is an option but doesn't really create necessarily the highest quality output. So when, When I ever have conversations with people about choosing the right company or the right coaches I really kind of try to start off with what it is that you actually are seeking. First understand what it is that you need. You know, Do you need a pure coach? Do you need somebody to, That, That will help you through and facilitate the discovery of, Of creating strength for your employees? Or are you seeking to have somebody come in and just do it for you or, Or do it for the employees or tell them what to do? Cause that's different. And you know, A great coach will assist the client and just uncovering the solutions to their problems. And they'll help them through the hard work of removing roadblocks for those employees. And they'll partner in the interpersonal development of that employee. You know, They'll ultimately take that employee to the next level. Right? So those are, You know, But if you, If the company is seeking more than pure coaching, Then that's totally cool. Just be upfront about it. Just be really clear about it, That you're seeking, You know, A coach that's a mentor too. That's done this before down the path of where our needs are. A consultant that's, That's specialized in the industry. Beautiful. A coach that's also the consultant. Great. Or an educator is bringing in training and education and as a coach, You know, That's great. You know, But the company I feel needs to pump the brakes and first understand what it is that they're really seeking. What do they need? And then when they're really clear on that, Then yeah. Set off, Figure out what, What company is the right company for you with the right coaches, Whether it's a pure coach or coach who has the business experience or tools and strategies you're seeking or whatever that might be. But I don't know, Long winded answer, But yes. Yes. Well, You know what I'm hearing inside of that is that, And I would fully agree that especially the larger companies and I've worked for some of those consulting firms like Stephen Covey and you know, Where someone finds an on the shelf solution that sounds good. And unfortunately that solution is generally like, Here's our 10 steps or hers are seven steps and maybe the coaching is guided by that, But then sometimes the real needs of the individual gets, You know, Somewhat met because the system is kind of working, But it's not really what we would consider, You know, Customized to the individual. It's more customized to the program itself, You know, And certainly there's companies that will, You know, Coaching firms have really boomed, You know, And because they're getting so large that, You know, A lot of the leaders at the top of the company aren't managing their two to 500 coaches below and they don't really know, And the coach is their product, You know? And so there's that impact too, But it sounds like a lot of times companies may need to be educated around what is it that they need by understanding more clearly that a coach is a different, You know, And a coach might be a trainer, But it's a different way of development, You know, Or someone that comes in like an OD consultant, Which is my background where you're going to hire that problem solver, You know, And then kind of come forward from there into the coaching, You know, Like, And that's my favorite way of doing it, But I think the key thing is, Is really knowing that the company is going to have different layers of needs and even that C-suite versus middle management versus, You know, What I call it, My growth opportunities. Very different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, For sure. Well, We've got another great question. So Dan's asking, Who's your primary business buyer? Is it, You know, The HR learning development execs? Like who's, Who's contacting you and then how do you reach them? Yeah, That's a great question. For me, It's been all over the place. And what I'm finding is that the, The executives often are feeling the pain and their HR is our solutions aren't filling the need. And so sometimes I find going and having those conversations with the executive directly is what's resonating. And they work back with their HR, HR department to say, Okay, This is, This is what we need. So that's, That's typically what I'm finding. There are situations where especially in a lot of the startups that I work for, They don't have HR departments. They don't, You know, It's really driven by the founders which is especially in startup organizations, Things are moving so quickly, So fast, And people have started maybe in those companies very junior and they need guidance. They need help. They need coaching to be able to get stronger, Faster. So that seems that the, The type of company seems to make a difference as well in targeting. But yeah, Did I answer that fully or did I leave a part out? I think the second part of it was, You know, How are you reaching them? And it sounds like they're contacting you. Yeah, Yeah. There's usually a referral or some sort of warm connection already created there. Yeah. I personally am not reaching out and doing mass marketing and cold calling personally for myself though. Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that, And correct me if I'm wrong, Is, You know, You've got a network and you've also let people know, You know, So you've got that kind of the relationship building pieces there that you would leverage. They're super oriented. Yeah. So, So, So key though. I mean, It really is developing a good network of people that, That, That you trust and they trust you and partnerships with people and, And making sure that it does go both ways. You know, You want to help your network and the people in your network and be there for them. And so I think that's important. Yeah. And I'd actually like to build on that because of my marketing love. I think that is so important is that you go out and you help people and they get to get a felt experience of your way, You know, Of really showing up for people. And that was super helpful for me when I was beginning my business to go and volunteer for like organizational development network or American training development, You know, Or organizations or get on boards, You know, Where I would get to be meet people. Cause those relationship referrals are going to be faster and cheaper than any, You know, Writing your book, Trying to get up on a stage, Doing your podcast, You know, And I think when it's especially the C-suite, You know, They're really looking for somebody, Not something they're looking for that trusted partner. At least that's been my experience. If you really think about it, Bringing in the coach, Especially at the executive level it can be very intimate. It's a very intimate thing. And, And that's where if somebody has an experience with a coach already and they feel that there's there's trust there versus them blindly reaching out or just kind of opening their door and see who comes in. I think there's a lot, A lot of weight that goes into whether or not that that person has developed the trust before they even meet. Right. Yeah, Vulnerability of being in that role, Luminary, Visible role, And sometimes asking for help can feel how it's feeling. Yeah. Right. A hundred percent. Yeah. So another question came in, You know, Are your clients looking for bottom line results, Like increase in sales revenue, Reduce costs, Reduce those, You know, Measureables. Yeah. That's that's funny. So if I was a consultant, Sure. You know if I was trying to consult them on how to increase the revenue or how to, You know, Increase output or something. Okay. What's important for me is that we, That we take a snapshot at the beginning to understand where they are. And that's, And that's important for me because when we, When we go six months through and we want to reflect back and check in, There's something there to, To help them realize growth and feel that they are making progress. And so when we, When we start off at the beginning, I want to make sure that we get a clear picture of where they feel they need to improve and where they feel their gaps are. And, And time and time again, You know, It's, It's what continues our, Our coaching relationship past the introductory period is that there's that snapshot that helps them see and feel that. Yes, I am because a lot of the development that goes on with these clients is truly inside and you can't necessarily open it up and see, Oh, I'm at this level now. And I bet that level it's inside. And so it's like, How am I resonating with people now? And how, How much progress am I making with this relationship over here or influencing people over there? And what's the dynamic on my team? Is my team more engaged now? Are they more motivated now? You can't always equate that to a metric. And so with my clients, I try and help focus them there. And not so much on the business output side. If they have a team that's strong and capable, Feel supported, They're engaged that type of team they'll work and they'll work hard. They'll invest in you if you invest in them. So I mean, If you focus on that, The by-product will be increased sales, Increased metrics of whatever you're measuring. But yeah. Yeah. I always like to redirect when I, If the conversation goes that way. You know, It's interesting because 25 years ago, I remember always having to have some specific measurable. You know, And rarely, Rarely did we see the immediate results in the timeframe the client had in mind. Right. And part of it was, You know, We used to joke, It takes seven years to turn an organization in a new direction, You know, Change a culture over, You know? And so what we started to do with our stakeholders is ask them to say, Okay, So what are your biggest problems right now? What do you think are your biggest barriers that are happening before? You know, That make this impossible or make this not possible, You know? And we would have a candid conversation around, You know, Well, The team doesn't communicate well, Or there's, You know, A lot of, You know, Absenteeism. There's a lot of people that aren't, Don't even know their jobs. I mean, You know, And so we would find things that I would say were smaller deliverables, Start the measurement earlier. And, You know, And I, Cause I would recognize that everyone would think I could come in and, You know, Two months later we'd be done, You know, And it'd be like, Okay, Well, Maybe we can get through, You know, A few things, But when you talk about the human element, Which is really, You know, Again, That human resource piece, You know, Putting some kind of value on it, That is probably going to get realized 12, 24 months later, You know, Which begs that point of, You know, Some people would choose, You know, Maybe a consultant to come in to solve the problem, But you would still lack the motivation of the employees to act on it, Including, You know, And they're going to get the, They're going to figure the problem out where the coach is going to be much more sustainable, You know, Then, And the results are going to take a little bit longer, Undoubtedly. Oh, A hundred percent. And as I hear you say that what triggered in my mind was how many times a company will replace a system or a tool because it's not working. So they just put another tool in because the new tool is going to fix it, But they ignore the fact that the humans are the ones that are entering in and using the tool, But if they're not supported, Engaged in and, And motivated to, To do, To use this tool, It doesn't matter what tool you put in front of them. You know, People often forget that there's that human element and, And, And the leader really needs to just pause and spend the time to invest in their employees in that quality way. Cause that's, What's really going to turn the company around and, But it's hard. It's really hard to do that. It takes work and it's so much easier to just throw money at something and just buy a new system and, And it's just not effective. It is not, It's just a waste, Such a waste. So something else just came up that sometimes the relationship itself with the coach part of training, And I'm going to use the word training, Training the client to feel safe to show up as the client and really participate fully in the session, Which can be, You know, Which is something I love doing as a coach. It's like, Okay, If you could tell me anything and know that it wouldn't hurt my feelings, You know, That I could just totally take it. What would you say? You know, And of course the first couple of times they're like, Yeah, Oh, This is great. You can tell the bilingual. He's like, Okay, Something's going on, You know? And just to build that deep trust, That the leadership, The stakeholders, That the, The clients, You know, The employees, You know, The teams that you're working with, If they could feel so safe that they could help you to help them, Then you can be really exponential as the coach, You know, And it comes back to you as that instrument of change, But also it models it for the company itself. So I hope that wasn't totally off. No, Yeah. I love that though, Because yeah, It makes such a difference. And anytime I've ever talking with a prospective client I make sure, You know, To, To call out that pick, Pick a company and a coaching company or coach that you feel comfortable with that you feel at ease with that you feel you can open up to it, Not because of their necessarily their resume but because you can truly open up because that's, What's going to create the greatest growth for them, The fastest growth. And yeah, If they're guarded, That's not going to work. It's just not as much as they want it to. And they try and force that, That, That square peg in the round hole. It just won't, It'll be just again, The client's waste of money. And so, Yeah, You really want to as a coach show up in a way that is truly there to serve. I mean, I doesn't, I'm just the mechanism for you. You can use me in any way you want, And I'm just here to provide coaching for you. And if you don't like it, I'm not going to cry. That's perfectly fine. That's that's I need to know so I can help you. So yeah, Definitely. I echo that a hundred percent. My favorite line from a client was like, You don't have to be nice. And then the minute I took a bold step, They're like, Okay, You need to be nice. So it looks like we've got a comment. It takes a mile and a half to turn an aircraft carrier. That's awesome. You know, And then from Neil, How do you differentiate between someone who can realistically feels they cannot do a job or function and someone who has imposter syndrome and has mistakenly feels they can't do the job due to a lack of confidence. That's a good question. Yeah. So when in, In the little case study that I was talking about you know, Michael, Who was the guy who had his own company and it got bought out, There's a beginning part of that whole coaching relationship where we do need to understand, Is there a functional gap or is it an emotional, An emotional situation where they Michael's up in his head and doesn't understand how to process what's going on. And to me, That's, That's the point at which, Okay, Oh no, Michael's, You know what? He might not be capable to do this job. He might be weighing over his head. But part of the coaching is like, Okay, If we're steered into the functional gap, Then let's understand that. And what action can Michael take to help fill in those gaps? And once we understand what the gaps are, Michael can make a decision. I don't want to fill those gaps. I didn't realize those are the gaps I needed to fill. So you know what, Peace out. Or he might go, Oh, Okay, I'm going to do this, This, This, This. So as a coach, All that we're doing is empowering them to make forward momentum wherever that forward momentum that they feel is the right direction, But we're there to help them process. Okay. Something's going on with Michael here. Okay. Okay. All right. So let's tease it out a little bit. Let's see. Okay. Yep. You're, You're, You're, You're maybe kind of, It's not an imposter thing. You're it truly is. You don't know how to do this stuff. That's okay. And let's figure out how you want to tackle that. So that's, That's the kind of how I've kind of addressed it in the past. Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of just being conscious to the different parts of the, What the client shares, You know, Listening to self-talk, Listening to how they describe their behaviors, You know, From their thinking, Their beliefs, You know, To maybe their feeling, Or we would say you know, What they would be doing and, And starting to go, Like, I'm hearing, You know, There's this and this and this, And what you're doing with your job. But I'm also sensing that you're feeling this or you're thinking this too. And so being able to separate, You know, To that whole person coming back full circle. I love that, You know, You talked about, You know, Kind of hitting both ends, You know, The who and the what and the how. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, For sure. Yeah. Well, I want to just take note, We've got about five minutes left. If anyone wants to unmute themselves and ask a question or share a reflection before we close up. So just a quick comment, If you don't mind. Lou, Thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate the effort you put into putting this together for us. It's great to get that perspective on leadership coaching versus executive coaching and how a chance to address some of these, Some of these important issues that we all need to think about as we, As we go out there and, And speak with these clients. It is a unique environment we're in right now. So I really appreciate the efforts you put forward and thank you for Russia for putting this together for us. Thank you. Thanks, Dan. Yeah, I know second that loop. Great job. I really is good to get the, You get the different brain as executive and leadership. So that is good to get the differences. And I appreciate all the insights. Thank you. You're most welcome. Thank you. Yeah, I just want to echo both Lou and, Or Neil and Dan. Thanks Lou. Appreciate the candor and the authenticity. I wasn't sure what, You know, What the value, But this has just been fascinating. Great stories and appreciate the way you describe things. Thanks so much. Cool. You're welcome. Thanks Mark. Okay. Thank you, Lou. You're welcome. Thank you. And I think, You know, Again, One of the things that I've really, I've always enjoyed about you is you have a voracious appetite for learning. Yeah, For sure. And also being the change that you're trying to invite in your clients and really focusing on your own development. And, You know, I think it's always amazing how we can support an individual that supports a system. And in many ways we're kind of that behind the scenes partner that our impact is global. Oh, For sure. Yeah. Thank you so much, Lou, For being with us. Be in touch with Lou. He's amazing. Bye-bye. So there you go. Some insights into coaching examples and the differences between leadership and executive coaching. I hope you found this podcast interesting and insightful. I welcome your feedback on additional topics that you would like to learn about. Drop me a note at coach at IONISWPC. Com. That's coach at I-O-N-I-S-W-P-C. Com. This is Lou with IONIS Whole Person Leadership Development and Coaching. And I thank you for joining me.
