Little Women Podcast: Social Life In Victorian Times (1)

Hello friends!

This is Niina from The Little Woman podcast.

Before we dive in,

I want to let all our listeners to know that every episode of The Little Woman podcast includes spoilers from the novel Little Woman by Louisa May Alcott and its sequels.

If you don't want any spoilers,

I recommend finding something else to listen to.

However,

If you are familiar with the story or you are not familiar with the story and don't mind spoilers,

You are welcome to start listening.

That's all.

I hope you enjoy our discussions.

Hello Niina.

Morning.

Morning.

How are you doing?

Oh,

I'm good.

I finally got the,

What is it,

Penguin's copy of Little Women,

Which I read for her yesterday for today.

Awesome.

I think we can start by chatting about this chapter.

Yeah,

To read and dissect.

It really does occur to me that,

I think when I reread the book last year or a couple of years ago,

I realized that this chapter is not really adapted a lot,

If at all,

In a lot of BA film adaptations,

Like as you noted when you brought it up with Navy.

And it seems really strange because it's actually the foundation of why Jo goes on the path and is essentially forced on the path that she goes on,

And also it's the whole reason that Amy goes on the path that she goes on.

And it's so vital,

But we never really see that groundwork being laid in a lot of the adaptations.

Yes,

That's an important notion.

It's one of those moments that is a huge deal,

Like a deal breaker in their lives.

Yes,

Absolutely.

Yeah,

It doesn't seem evident that that's where it's going to go initially in the chapter,

Because Visit to the Ants and Mrs.

Carroll,

It's at the end.

But I think because we see a difference in attitudes between Jo and Amy,

And we don't really understand the significance of their attitudes until the end,

And we realize that Jo's way of going about things essentially doesn't really work out for her.

That is true.

It's really good because this happens in the beginning of part two,

So there's a four-year difference between part one and part two.

And people sort of know that in part one,

They remember Amy burning Jo's manuscript,

And maybe that's all they remember of their relationship.

But then in part two,

You can see that even though they sometimes argue,

This is a new type of relationship that they have.

It's a lot more equal.

There's a lot more equal dynamics between them.

Yeah,

So you even have Amy doing things to take care of Jo,

Like fixing her dress,

Picking out clothes for her.

And sometimes Jo is the kind of,

She's described a bit as a repentant,

When she looks at herself,

She realizes she's a lot dirtier compared to Amy.

So it is a very interesting shift in dynamics.

One of the things that I remember when I read it for the first time is that they argue,

But then they laugh after they argue.

I really like that.

Yes,

Yes.

Well,

It's kind of,

It's growth for both of them,

Right?

Because Amy obviously is a lot more mature.

She's not going to deal with things that upset her in the same way.

But also Jo,

She doesn't kind of take offense the same way that she used to.

Because I think they both kind of learned a bit of a lesson from that previous incident with the book burning,

Where Amy's like,

Oh,

Well,

Obviously I shouldn't have reacted like this.

But then Jo is also like,

Well,

Oh,

I shouldn't take these insults too personally.

I also shouldn't be reacting to anger in this way.

So,

So yeah,

No,

It is a very nice shift between the two.

Amy at this point is 16,

I believe,

And Jo is 20 or 21.

Thereabouts,

Yes.

She starts the book at 16,

Seeing as she would be around 20 or so.

Yeah.

When I was reading this,

There are lots of these moments when you see her wanting to go and play with boys.

So it's kind of foreshadows her future that.

It does to her,

No?

Yeah,

It does.

Yeah.

I mean,

It is what she was made to say,

Really.

And I think,

You know,

Amy,

We see her have her own ideas of what she's learned about life.

And going back to their shifting dynamic,

I think,

You know,

Jo is just,

I don't know if she has changed less than Amy has.

I wouldn't say that necessarily,

But I would say she's still very much like,

Oh,

I need to,

Like,

Why do I have to do all these things?

Like,

You know,

How much should I do it?

But then I think Amy,

I think,

Has gone through a very drastic change.

Since she had that experience living with Aunt March,

I think she's become very socially conscious about how people receive other people,

Especially women,

And also women of a different class.

Like,

I'm wondering if you kind of picked up on any of the very classist notions of their exchange.

When they go to these social calls,

Amy goes straight to the adults,

The ladies of these houses.

And then Jo,

She wants to stay with the kids or she goes to play with the boys.

And Jo is supposed to be the mature one because she's older than Amy,

But Amy has this social craze that she wants to do that.

Definitely.

She always has that instinct.

And also,

There's this very interesting exchange where Amy is talking with Jo about,

Oh,

You just gave a nod to Mr.

Tudor,

But then to this other person,

Who is just of a slightly lower class,

You actually said hello to them.

And then Jo's like,

Well,

Why should I?

I don't like Mr.

Tudor as much.

I like this other person.

And Amy's like,

No,

But,

You know,

There's more consequences for just,

You know,

For treating one person well versus the other.

Yeah,

That's a pretty common theme in Louisa May Albert's literal work.

Yeah.

There's sometimes with the upper class.

Yes.

So I think,

Well,

What connection do you draw between this and others of her work?

I recently read this novel called King of Clubs.

The romantic lead,

Once again,

Was a German immigrant.

So I guess it,

Of course,

Very much looked like Professor Bear,

Brown beard,

Teacher,

Blue eyes.

And there was a lot of talk how he's poor and noble and very much German.

And yeah,

So there's lots of these characters who come from lower classes that are heroes in her works.

But then I have one example.

And I think in Rosenblum,

One of the main characters ends up marrying this poor woman who still has a noble background,

But because she's an orphan,

The rest of the family is down upon that and marriage.

Yeah,

She has lots of these kind of marriages that have like rich man,

Poor woman,

Like Amy and Lori,

For example.

Yeah,

Yeah,

That is very interesting.

No,

Because I think I noticed there's a very interesting passage where I think Louisa goes on a bit of a long description of how Amy has this sort of reverence for Mr.

Tudor's family or the Tudors in general,

Because she has this kind of so-called reverence for European nobility and British nobility that seems to not have been shaken by Americans,

Or at least at that time.

She still has that kind of respect for class and this kind of,

Well,

Not antiquated at the time,

But not really applicable for the world order of the states.

And so it just seems like it's something that she seems to aspire to.

Now,

As an American,

It's very interesting to read that,

You know,

People always say,

Oh,

Well,

Americans care more about the British royal family,

British people.

And I feel like that's almost still the case here in this novel with Amy,

Where she's like,

Wow,

Look at these people from this old world where we supposedly came from.

And so there's almost a bit of a glorification of this whole idea that their aristocracy could exist,

Because aristocracy does not exist in the states as it does over in Europe even now.

Yeah,

It's the same here in Finland,

Because we do have people here who admire Swedish monarchy.

There's a certain fairytale aspect that people are fascinated by.

Then Amy and Laurie,

They have all the My Lady and My Lord things.

Oh,

Yes,

They do.

Hey,

Look,

I think Laurie always had this sort of romantic idea of his European ancestry.

So I think they both can bring that alive in their relationship.

Yeah,

Yeah.

No,

I mean,

In essence,

It is kind of a kind of fairytale relationship between Amy and Laurie,

Right?

Because he is a kind of European romantic type,

And she is this not very affluent person.

But of course,

Their relationship dynamic is a little bit,

By the end,

Quite even,

Right?

Because she's a bit pragmatic,

And she's not necessarily just taken in by the romance of that relationship.

But yeah,

No,

I thought it was very interesting revisiting this chapter to see that passage.

Yeah,

It is an interesting thing.

And I hadn't thought about that before.

So something to think.

Yeah,

Yeah,

No,

Absolutely.

I mean,

If we ever want to talk about sort of class notions,

Or notions of nobility,

That would be an interesting topic.

Definitely.

We keep that in mind for the future.

Yeah.

One of the things in this chapter that very much bothered me,

Because it hasn't been adapted in the movies,

Is that there's this notion that Amy somehow stole Joe's trip to Europe.

I've seen in the 1949 film,

1994 film,

And 2019 film,

Because this hasn't been adapted,

This discussion between Aunt Marge,

And Aunt Carl,

And Amy,

And Joe,

You do get this feeling that,

Well,

Amy somehow gets this trip to Europe,

And they don't give the reason why Joe doesn't get the trip.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Because 1949,

It's suddenly Aunt Marge says to Joe,

Oh,

Well,

I'm taking Amy with me.

We didn't really get along very well,

But like,

Amy and I get along.

And then 1994,

I think,

They're not as harsh about it.

I think there's a video about this month,

Where I think in 1994,

There's a bit of a discussion where it's just like,

Oh,

Amy's really artistic,

She could benefit from going to Europe.

And she's also now the new companion.

So like,

Of course,

She was so,

But not,

It's not really expanded upon in the same way.

2019 is,

You know,

They don't even really discuss it at all.

It's just like Amy announces it,

And there's no rationale.

We don't really get why the trip for Amy works out for her.

And we don't get that there's actually a,

You know,

From my perspective,

Legitimate argument for,

For Amy to go over Joe,

Because,

You know,

This is saying,

Oh,

Amy's just grateful.

Amy is open to new experiences,

And is open minded and likes learning things.

Of course,

Amy would get more out of the trip than Joe would.

Yeah.

But in the 1994 film,

When it said that Amy gets to go to Europe,

It happens right after Joe has rejected Laurie.

And then,

And you kind of feel bad for Joe.

But then when you read this book,

You're not really supposed to feel bad for Joe when it happens.

Right?

Yeah,

No,

She hasn't,

She hasn't really taken any hard knocks yet.

Yeah,

No,

We haven't even had a real conversation with Laurie as yet.

Yeah.

And like,

He proposes like two years after this event takes place in the book.

Yeah,

Yeah,

No,

It's,

It's really interesting.

I wonder if it's sort of a,

Both a need to compress events.

And also,

It just works kind of on a narratively in in the film format,

Maybe?

I don't know.

And then I was thinking like,

In the 1949 film,

Amy and Aunt Marge,

They pop up in New York.

And then they just tell her that,

Oh,

We're going to Europe.

It bothers me that movie because,

And Joe is like,

Oh,

They're going to Europe.

It said that she's in New York.

And she's sad because Laurie was there.

And he didn't come see her.

But then it happens like,

After he has,

She has rejected him.

So why is she in New York waiting for Laurie to come?

So there's that inconsistency,

Historically there.

Yeah,

No,

I mean,

I don't like how 1949 really handles the Amy and Laurie stuff at all.

I don't think it handles,

I don't think it really handles Amy at all.

No,

Not at all.

Yeah.

Oh,

I mean,

I mean,

1949,

I have,

I have some feelings about it,

Not as strong as say,

My 2019 feelings,

But it tries to hold back too much from from portraying like,

Things that happen in the book,

Like Beth dying and Amy being caged.

It just doesn't have the,

It doesn't have the guts to go there.

I know.

I like a lady who plays Aunt Marge in that film,

Because she's very uptight.

But part that I like in that scene is when they are in New York,

Amy feels really bad for Joe that she can't go to Europe.

But that's like,

The only time when that happens that there's some kind of similarity to the novel.

So then it's like,

It doesn't give the explanation what's going on.

And then the 2019,

Somebody just pointed this out to me that,

Well,

In this book,

When Joe loses the trip to Europe,

Mommy is like,

Well,

That was your fault.

But then in the 2019 film,

Mommy goes like,

My poor Joe,

You really should have gotten the trip.

So once again,

I am not surprised that people think that Amy somehow stole the trip.

Yeah,

Because your adaptations,

They always imply that.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's weird.

Well,

Speaking of Marmee,

I think people really underestimate how much of a voice of reason she is.

Because people always like to think of her as just Joe's ally,

Joe,

Like on Jippo's side about everything.

I mean,

And it's not not a surprise,

Because I mean,

They went through very similar Marmee and went through very similar emotional developments.

But Marmee is always just calls it like it is she she's just like,

You,

You kind of messed up this opportunity for yourself.

This is,

This is on you.

That seems to not always come across in one of the adaptations.

Yeah,

And I sometimes I wonder,

Are they just afraid to show bad traits of Joe?

And then it kind of bothers me because well,

Little Woman is about Joe growing up.

Even if you see her doing mistakes,

You should see her growing out of them and learning from them.

But for some reason,

They just don't have the guts to show her growth.

Even if she is her authentic self,

She still needs to survive in this world,

Be nice sometimes.

It is very consistent across adaptations.

I think the 2017 miniseries,

Do you remember how they handled this?

Because for the life of me,

I cannot recall at the moment.

It did include the part with the ants,

But I think it tried to make it seem so that Amy was glad that Joe didn't get the trip.

And once again,

That doesn't align with the novel.

Not so good.

There's this one old adaptation from the 1950s that I think does cause right.

It's from 1957.

I can't remember the name of it.

That's like the only one where you can see Joe putting herself above the ants.

And then there's this interesting scene where you can see Mommy and Amy looking horrified by the way Joe speaks.

So I think that's interesting.

Okay.

Oh,

Interesting.

And I think in the end of the book,

When Joe and Fredrick are engaged,

I think it's where she tells the family that she's planning to start school.

I think there's a moment where she says that if she hadn't go to New York,

She hadn't met her Fritz.

She doesn't feel bad that she didn't get to go to Europe.

Yeah,

No.

I think you'd mentioned the 2017 adaptation.

I think about that portrayal of Amy and I like it less and less when I think about it because she just seems like such a deliberate mean girl in that adaptation.

I wonder if you get that feeling.

A lot of times I feel that way and it doesn't really give Laurie any kind of arc or growth.

So when they are in Europe together,

I just wonder where's the part where they fall in love?

I feel the same with the 2019 film because where's the part where they fall in love?

Like you said,

Laurie doesn't do anything for Amy.

Yeah,

No.

I think it's almost like they just sort of fall into a relationship.

The fact that Laurie doesn't do anything for Amy,

Doesn't have to prove himself.

I think it undercuts what the development that Amy is going through because Amy is very much like,

I am creative,

But I'm also pragmatic.

If someone can't do anything for me,

Then if you cannot work hard,

Even if you are wealthy,

I cannot respect you.

I think we respect her a lot more when this happens,

When Laurie has to go and get into business and stop pursuing artistic notions without actually doing anything or without putting in the work rather.

Because I think 2019,

They were kind of on their way there.

So I was just like,

Okay,

Well,

At least Amy,

It has this big speech about it's a business proposition.

Marriage is a business proposition and I really have to think about these things before I get married,

That whole speech.

But I think the fact that Laurie doesn't hold up his of things and actually do something for himself,

I think it really reneges on the bark of both of those characters and on that couple.

Well,

I think 2019 has a huge problem the way it tries to objectify the male characters as prizes.

I mean,

Greta Gerwig said that she needs to hire hot guys so that the girls can feel like winners.

I'm like,

Well,

That doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about this book because Laurie is not a great character for these sisters to fight over before he changes his lifestyle and his attitude.

I feel like it comes from this idea that,

Oh,

We now need to objectify the men of this story,

As now you've actually just reversed the gender issue instead of actually resolving it.

Reversed,

Objectifying the woman,

Now objectifying the man.

So where's the equality?

Where's the thing?

I don't get it.

And then there are already people who are shipping like Charles Rohn and Timothy Chalamet,

So I'm not sure about the casting.

Why not hire people who play Joe and Fredrick and then ship them?

Or Amy and Laurie?

Who asked me about this?

Louisa very much set them up to be a pretty terrible couple.

Set him up to be very toxic to her.

I mean,

We've already discussed how Greta Gerwig is very pro this couple.

They're like,

Oh,

Well,

You know,

I had these two as a couple in Lady Bird,

So why don't I have Joe and Laurie?

I'm not a fan.

I'm kind of contemplating how Amy goes through,

Kind of the development that Amy goes through in that film,

Because if we want to dial back to this particular chapter that we're discussing,

I feel like all of the development is kind of given to her later arc.

I mean,

We've already discussed how it's not completed just because of Laurie's things.

Yeah,

That kind of dynamic between her and Joe,

It's not really given that same kind of nuance.

It's just sort of,

Oh,

Well,

Joe always took everything from me.

Joe always had the talent.

Joe always had Laurie,

Who was after her.

It's still set up in this context of them competing over things.

She's also still,

You know,

She's trying,

You know,

Is Florence Pugh trying to play a girl at this point,

Trying to play like,

You know,

A very young girl,

Which is awkward.

She's not coming from this context of,

Oh,

I have matured and I know social races and I can get something out of this opportunity,

Which I think the 1994 actually implies,

Right?

So she's like,

Well,

She's asked me,

I'm her companion.

And then there's that conversation about her,

Like,

You know,

The aunts,

They're just like,

Oh,

Well,

She's like grown up really well.

And she's so sophisticated now and she's so artistic.

Whereas Florence Pugh comes up in 2019 and is just like,

Oh,

I have an opportunity now.

Yeah.

It's still her as like a young girl and kind of flaunting what she has,

Which is totally not what it is.

So we will read paragraphs and then we analyze them.

All right.

Sure.

Little Woman,

Chapter 29.

Calls.

Come,

Jo,

It's time.

For what?

You don't mean to say you have forgotten that you promised to make half a dozen calls with me today?

I've done a good many rash and foolish things in my life,

But I don't think I ever was mad enough to say I'd make six calls in one day when a single one upsets me for a week.

Yes,

You did.

It was a bargain between us.

I was to finish the crayon of bed for you and you were to go probably with me and return our neighbor's visits.

How would you define these calls in the 19th century?

What the calls were about?

Calls.

I think,

Wouldn't it be to just kind of establish your kind of social connection to the,

To your community?

Because I think people would sort of think you were impolite if you didn't occasionally drop by.

Yeah.

And I think it's really to at least give the family a bit of a social presence.

These were very tight communities.

In this kind of community,

You would have to have good connections,

Be in good terms with your neighbors.

And the marchers,

They are not in a very good position in this society.

The family is a bit suspicious,

A bit eclectic.

So I think this kind of shows how Emi wants to give the family a better position.

And you can kind of see that when she says that she wants to marry rich so she can take care of her family.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

No,

I think something that doesn't always come across adaptation-wise is that Emi is very much thinking about the whole family.

Rather,

It's still true.

Oh,

Both Joe and Emi,

The family always came first.

Yeah,

No,

They're always trying to put the family first and earn for the family.

I mean,

Both of these people,

I think they're essentially very big-hearted in their own way.

They're always trying to be the breadwinners in their own way.

Of course,

Joe is sort of like,

I am very self-sufficient.

I can do it with my own two hands.

And I don't need this kind of the conventional bearings of society,

Whereas Emi is just like,

No,

We actually need society to survive.

This is how we,

Literally,

We live in a society.

That's why we have to do these things that sometimes make us uncomfortable.

Yeah,

They essentially want to do the same thing,

But with a different approach.

Yeah.

If it was fair,

That was in the bond,

And I stand to the letter of my bond,

Shylock.

There's a pile of clouds in the east.

It's not fair,

And I don't go.

Now that's shirking.

It's a lovely day,

No prospect of rain,

And you pride yourself on keeping promises,

So be honorable.

Come and do your duty,

And then be at peace for another six months.

At that minute,

Joe was particularly absorbed in her dressmaking,

For she was a man to a maker,

General to the family,

And took a special credit to herself,

Because she could use a needle as well as pen.

It was very provoking to be arrested in the act of a first trying on,

And ordered out to make calls in her vest array.

On a warm July day,

She hated calls of the formal sort,

And never made any till Amy cornered her with a bargain,

Bribe,

Or promise.

In the present instance,

There was no escape,

And having clashed her scissors rebelliously while protesting that she mouthed ponder,

She gave in,

Put away her work,

And taking up her hat and gloves with an air of resignation,

Told Amy the victim was ready.

Joe March,

You are perverse enough to provoke a saint.

You don't intend to make calls in that state,

I hope,

Cried Amy,

Surveying her with amazement.

Why not?

I'm neat and cool and comfortable,

Quite proper for a dusty walk on a warm day.

If people care more for my clothes than they do for me,

I don't wish to see them.

You can dress for both and be as elegant as you please.

It pays for you to be fine.

It doesn't for me,

And trouble overs only worry me.

It's funny because I read this quote somewhere that when Louisa May Alcott had extra money,

She liked to buy fashionable clothes,

Though being very unfashionable.

Yeah,

Well,

Here's the thing.

I think Louisa May Alcott,

She always has the most amazing descriptions of clothing.

Yeah,

I've always loved rereading her books and reading her descriptions of clothes,

Because she's so amazingly descriptive.

You can just feel how luxurious a dress is.

You can feel how clean another dress is,

And how a hat comes across.

I love reading these passages.

And even the hairstyle sometimes.

Or it's like,

You know,

The chapter where Jo is observing Fredrik,

And then she kind of talks about how benevolent his clothes are.

Yeah.

It's interesting when people try to make Jo so boyish.

I think sometimes they try to strip all these feminine qualities of her.

Mm-hmm.

Like there are these moments where it's mentioned that she liked to make clothes,

She had clothes,

She liked sewing,

And I think she's like knitting socks in Little Man,

Because lots of boys.

She appointed pride for her,

Because it says that she is now what the dressmaker in the family.

She can use the needle as well as the pen.

It's now something that she takes pride in,

That she can actually do these tasks.

It seems like now,

I mean,

She's gone through this experience where I think the whole family went through this when Marmee was gone,

And everyone had to kind of stand up for themselves.

Now she's in a position where she can do feminine tasks.

It's just that she's like,

Well,

Even if I can make clothes,

I just prefer to dress for comfort instead of appearances.

So yeah,

It's a very interesting detail.

I was thinking,

What are these adaptations where we can see Jo sewing?

I think the 1949 might be the only one.

You see her with Kitty and Minnie,

And then she's sewing something,

And then she fixes Fredrik's coat.

I always noticed that part of it.

She always has a sewing bag or a sewing basket with her when she's tutoring those kids.

I think in 1933,

There was a scene where all the sisters are gathered together with Marmee,

And they're sewing,

I think it's a flap or a blanket.

It's for the soldiers.

I think it shows how they all had to learn these skills because of necessity.

If you cannot buy clothes,

Then you need to make your own.

And if you want a new one,

You need to make new ones.

And I feel like some people just kind of aren't happy that Jo becomes more feminine over the course of the story.

And I'm like,

Literally,

It was just how you made new things for yourself.

Always buy things.

It's that perspective.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with you doing that sewing.

You could be so many things for Jo.

It's also a way of being self-reliant.

Yeah,

No,

That's very true.

Why buy new clothes when she can be,

In her words,

Completely independent?

Do you feel like the dynamic between Jo and Aimee here is also kind of like the dynamic between Jo and Meg,

How it used to be?

It is a bit similar.

I think Meg used to be the person who was like,

Oh,

Jo,

Don't wear that.

Wear this other thing.

Jo,

You need to look better for this thing that we're going to.

And then Aimee is now in the same role where she's like,

Oh,

Well,

You can actually do all these things.

You can actually look really good if you do this.

And she kind of puts it a into how she does it as well.

And it was always like that.

She liked to make things more pretty.

For sure.

But also Jo submits to that.

And this is later on,

But she's shown to be kind of submitting to Aimee's already in many ways.

But also because she trusts her.

Oh,

Dear sight,

Aimee.

Now she's in a contrary fit and will drive me distracted before I can get her properly ready.

I'm sure it's no pleasure to me to go today,

But it's a debt we owe society and there's no one to pay it but you and me.

I'll do anything for you,

Jo.

If you only dress yourself nicely and come and help me do the civil.

You can talk so well,

Look so aristocratic in your best things and behave so beautifully if you try.

But I'm proud of you.

I'm afraid to go alone.

Do come and take care of me.

You're an artful little puss to flatter and weedle your cross-pulled sister in that way.

The idea of my being aristocratic and well-bred and you're being afraid to go anywhere alone.

I don't know which is the most absurd.

Well,

I'll go if I must and do my best.

You shall be commander of the expedition and I'll blindly obey.

Will that satisfy you?

With sudden change from perversity to lamb-like submission.

You're a perfect cherub.

Now put on all your best things and I'll tell you how to behave at each place so that you will make a good impression.

I want people to like you and they would if you'd only try to be more agreeable.

Do your hair the pretty way and put the pink rose in your bonnet.

It's becoming and you look too silver in your plain suit.

Take your light shades and the embroidered handkerchief.

We'll stop at Meg's and borrow her white sunshade and then you can have my dove-colored one.

While Amy dressed,

She issued her orders and Jo obeyed them,

Not without entering her protest.

However,

For she sighed as she rustled into her new organdy,

Frowned darkly at herself as she tied her bonnet strings in an irreproachable bow,

Wrestled viciously with pins as she put on her collar,

Wrinkled up her features gently as she shook out the handkerchief whose embroidery was as irritating to her nose as the present mission was to her feelings,

And when she had squeezed her hands into tight gloves with two buttons and a tassel as the last touch of elegance,

She turned to Amy with an imbecile expression of countenance,

Saying meekly,

I'm perfectly miserable,

But if you consider me presentable,

I'll- I die happy.

Is that good?

Yeah.

This is so funny.

Yeah,

It is.

It is a really funny section.

Jo sounds like she likes to be pampered by Amy.

Yeah,

Yeah.

She's almost babied by Amy,

Which is like- it is- which is a very interesting aspect of their dynamic.

Yes,

And I think this part where Amy's sort of like trying to persuade her,

This is like the way I talk to my sister when I want her to do something for me.

Yeah,

Yeah.

She's like that.

She's like talking to a kid,

Almost.

She's like,

Oh,

Like,

You know,

Can you do this?

You're so- you're so good.

Can you- okay,

You know.

She's like,

You can.

You know,

I know you can.

And then she- and then Jo is just sort of like listening to her and obeying her,

But like also just acting like a kid generally.

She- and she's protesting and she's irritated by all of it,

But she does it anyway.

And it just feels almost maternal in a lot of ways.

I mean,

I wonder if,

In a sense,

Jo always almost needs someone in her life like this.

Now,

Like Meg is married,

So now Amy has kind of taken up that role of telling her what she needs to do to present herself to society.

That's a good point.

Yeah,

She- I mean,

She always falls into this dynamic with one person or one sister or one sibling or another.

And it's interesting because,

You know,

In a way,

Meg is this role model in the beginning for her because she's the big sister.

And I wonder if Amy becomes this role model now in the second part.

There's this quote from Louisa May Alcott that she's a hero worshipper.

And I think that's interesting because we'll talk about this with Lori and Felix.

At first,

Jo admires Lori,

And it's not always such a great thing because Lori's not the greatest guy always.

Right.

And then she moves on to admiring Fitz.

And that changes her views on life a lot.

Yes,

We offer a different kind of perspective on things.

So in a way,

Amy offers another perspective.

Yeah,

Yeah.

She always needs someone who's not so much going along with her,

But actually is contrary to her.

Exactly.

Yeah,

No,

That's a really good observation,

Actually.

And also,

I think going back to what we were discussing earlier about the importance of calls,

Amy not only just talks about calls as like,

Oh,

This is just something we do.

It's a debt we owe society,

Which is a very heavy-headed way of putting it.

But she literally sees it as a duty to go out and socially call and essentially keep this family standing in the community.

Yes.

And it's like that part later in the book when Amy writes home that she's going to marry Rich.

She says that Beth can't,

Meg didn't,

Jo won't.

So I'm going to do it and save everyone.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It doesn't go exactly as planned,

But it's fun.

No,

No,

Yeah,

No,

It is really funny.

Yeah.

No,

I mean,

Literally,

They are kind of the only people who really can.

Because it's funny,

But you have this chapter where you essentially have the two ultimate breadwinners of the family who are going out and abridging society in their own way.

And you step back and you're like,

Oh,

Yeah,

No,

Meg isn't there to make social calls with them anymore.

She's married.

She's got her own stuff going on.

And then Beth,

Of course,

They've always taken for granted can't go and she really can't.

So,

Yeah,

No,

It's really just on them to do everything,

To formulate social connections and get the family on its feet.

And if we are being realistic with Amy being this poor woman and then having some artistic abilities,

That doesn't automatically mean that she can make a living with her art.

So she has to be more realistic.

There weren't so many jobs for women at this time.

You could be a governess or maybe a maid or a writer.

If you wanted to save the entire family from going to a poor house,

Then you had to do something more drastic.

Yeah,

No,

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I know that Mommy was some sort of a social worker.

She's portrayed as doing a lot of volunteer work and doing a lot of,

Yeah,

She does do a lot of social work.

Do you recall where she is necessarily in the framework of the story at the moment?

She's still around.

It's not really the kind of the social networking of the family doesn't seem to be very much in her hands at the moment.

No,

Not really.

I think she works more with the soldiers.

She works with the poor people.

I think that kind of work back then was really looked down upon.

And then her husband,

He's at home at this point,

I think.

And he's a minister.

But then there was that part where it's mentioned that he had to close his school because he took the black child to the school.

So I would imagine that if he was a minister,

Then it was difficult to find work after that.

It's left me to make in the book what's going on with the parents.

I realize I'm not very clear about where they are career-wise at this point.

I realize that's not the point of the book,

But I'm like,

What are they living on at this point?

It's so fair.

If the parents are involved in professions that are not necessarily glamorous,

Then it's not always.

.

.

Presumably they're busy and they are not available to perform to these social niceties in the same way.

So yeah,

No,

It's on these two kids.

I recently read the chapter,

Dead Secret,

Which happens a year after this close chapter.

So that basically tells Jo that she has known the entire year that Jo is in New York,

That she's deadly sick.

So maybe the parents are more involved with Ed at this point.

Yeah,

That's very true.

Because they're trying to support her health and well-being in her last days.

And if that is the case,

Maybe their own careers are secondary.

Well,

That's just speculation,

You know,

All of the circumstances.

Yeah,

But it's interesting to think about.

Yeah,

No,

Because I think I have such admiration for Marmee as a character the more I read and see different portrayals of her in adaptations.

And I really like when adaptations bring out how strong she is and how tough she is,

Because she really goes through a lot.

She has to go through a lot.

A lot of people threw perils between Jo and Marmee.

And I think there's a very strong peril between Marmee and Bette because,

You know,

Marmee is this person who works with the poor people pretty much all the time.

And then we have Bette who follows her when these others decide to stop at some point.

And that's how Bette becomes sick because she goes to help with the Hummels.

So she's doing something that Vermonter would have done as well.

So that,

Of course,

Has to go through the crisis.

I think it's interesting to think how if you work in the healthcare industry in the 19th century,

You didn't have any kind of protection.

Yeah,

Right.

Or anything from the,

I don't know,

From the government or anything.

There wasn't no vaccinations.

Yeah,

No,

You didn't get immunized.

I don't think me,

I don't know that they have the same standards about sanitation that we would doubt.

I know that Louisa Mayalba,

She was a nurse.

She used to work in a hospital.

I think that's sort of one of those things in Illinois that nobody likes to talk about.

Because people are like,

Oh,

Bette is just a victim.

She's a weak person and all kinds of things that I disagree.

I think it's interesting to think how much her own experiences with Louisa Mayalba wrote to Marmee and Bette as well.

Bette,

I think,

Also tries to be a moral center of the family in a similar way that Marmee is.

I mean,

She's the only one who keeps up visits to the Hummels.

These are people who,

They don't have to make social calls to the Hummels families.

Going to the Hummels with no social consequence to them.

But of course,

Bette is,

Of course,

That one person who keeps it up and we know what happens.

Somebody quite recently told me that in German literature,

There's this very strong idea of self-sacrificing.

So we can see that in the little woman,

Not just in the way Bette goes to the Hummels,

But also in a way how Jo sort of loses her own integrity when she works with the Navy Volcano,

Because she wants to know that she's making a sacrifice for her family.

Well,

That's what she tells herself.

And then we had Amy saying that she's going to marry Rich and then sacrifice her own happiness.

I don't know.

It's supposed to be something admirable,

But it always has these consequences.

If you're doing something solely for another purpose,

For somebody else,

Then there's always a cost to you personally.

And of course,

Beth takes the full consequences of that.

Yeah,

Like,

Now that I think about it,

That's pretty much every single Brother Scream fairytale.

Okay,

Yeah,

It is.

You were violently satisfactory,

Then slowly around and let me get a careful view.

So Revolt and Amy gave a touch here and there,

Then fell back with your head on one side,

Salving graciously.

Yes,

You do.

Your head is all I could ask,

For that white bonnet with the ropes is quite ravishing.

Hold back your shoulders and carry your hands easily,

No matter if you're gloves to itch.

There's one thing you can do well,

So that is wear a shawl.

I can't,

But it's very nice to see you,

And I'm so glad Miss Norton gave you that lovely one.

It's simple,

But handsome,

And those folds over the arm are really artistic.

Here's the point of my mantle in the middle,

And I have looped my dress evenly.

I like to show my boots for my beat-up pretty,

Though my nose isn't.

You are a thing of beauty and a joy forever,

Said Jo,

Looking through her hand with the air of a connoisseur as a blue feather against the gold hair.

I am to drag my best dress through the dust.

Well,

Loop it up,

Please,

Ma'am.

Throw it up when you walk,

But drop it in the house.

The sweeping smell suits you best,

And you must learn to drag your skirt gracefully.

You haven't half uttered one cough.

Do it at once.

You'll never look finished if you are not careful about the little details,

For they make up the pleasing whole.

Jo sighed and ceased to purge the buttons of her glove.

They drew in not her cough,

But at last both were ready and set away,

Looking as pretty as pictures,

Hannah said as she hung out the upper window to watch them.

Now,

Jo,

Dear,

The jesters are very elegant people,

So I want you to put on your best deportment.

Not make any of your abrupt remarks or do anything odd,

Will you?

Just be calm,

Cool,

And quiet.

That's safe and ladylike,

And you can easily do it for 50 minutes,

Said Amy as they approached the first place,

Having borrowed the white parcel and being inspected by Meg.

It may be only charm.

Yeah.

No,

I mean,

That's kind of a continuation of what we've been talking about,

Right?

First of all,

I mean,

There's all of those dress details.

Then we just have more of that dynamic between them where Amy is just kind of the final word.

I was thinking just the Under the Umbrella chapter when Jo and Freddy go and buy the dress for Tina,

Then Jo ends up trying these different clothes for him.

And then here we have Amy telling Jo that she looks great in the shawls.

Yeah,

Yeah,

It has a nice little detail I hadn't noticed before.

Yeah,

She is a shawl wearer.

She seems to be a model of shawls for different people.

I feel like sometimes Amy almost treats her as an artist model.

Yes.

She's kind of looking at her not only just as a aspirationally fashionable person,

But also as an artist.

And you get that sense from her language looking at her,

Right?

That is very true.

I like,

Let's put this here and let's put that there.

Wear these clothes.

Yeah.

I love that.

And she has a sense of what suits Jo best with the skirt style.

I think she has the sense of details,

Right?

Because she's just like,

You just have to get every detail,

Right?

Nothing out of place.

I get the sense that Amy just has that eye for what is aesthetically pleasing in general.

And because I think Amy is never a very flashy dresser.

You don't get that sense from her because she's not fashionable without knowing what actually looks good.

She has a very good understanding of what looks good on different people.

Amy's a good model when it comes to her dressing.

Yeah,

Yeah,

She is.

Because initially you're like,

Well,

If Amy were really aspiring to be rich,

Like people who aspire to be rich,

They try to look rich as well,

Right?

But she always has an understanding of like,

Okay,

Well,

I can do something that's very tasteful.

I'd rather be actually tasteful rather than look very gaudy.

And sometimes I'm not sure that really comes across adaptation-wise.

Because I mean,

I always love her outfit,

Especially because 1994,

They adjust her dress to see a muscle style of the 1870s,

Especially when she's in Europe.

Everyone at home is still dressing in sort of the skirts of the late 1860s,

Where she's just transitioning into the classical style.

She's doing very well.

But I think it doesn't always come across.

She's like dressing herself and also other people in like white and maybe just adding some details with flowers or in tulle,

Whatever that material that she's using in the later chapters.

I like these details that Louisa adds.

You can really see her personality here.

She's a very detail-oriented individual and it really comes across.

In the sequels,

There are lots of mentions how Jo wears different shawls and scarves.

It's really interesting.

And then I was thinking,

Because there's this Disney version of Little Men from 1998.

And I think that's one of those versions where Jo really wears lots of shawls.

See that in other adaptations.

I think in 1949,

She is a bit more,

Right?

Yeah,

Yeah.

Remember,

She does wear shawls in that.

Yeah,

I mean,

She's in New York,

At least.

That's where she wears shawls quite a bit.

And then it's also mentioned that she likes knitting.

In a lot of parts in the book,

It's mentioned that Jo likes to knit.

So she probably made herself these beautiful shawls.

Yeah.

So,

And I think,

And it's kind of like bringing that back to Amy,

I think,

Because she says like,

That one is just simple but handsome and it's really artistic.

So,

I mean,

She has a sense of what suits Jo and even to an extent,

I think Jo actually understands,

You know,

What looks good on her.

I really like the sense that Amy's not necessarily trying to make Jo something she's not.

She is just trying to make Jo look like the best version of herself.

I think that in a 1949 film,

I think when she wears the shawls,

I think some people might say that it makes her to look more mature or maternal.

Yeah.

But that is also Jo's nature.

Yeah.

So in a way,

Their clothes symbolize their personalities as well.

Yeah,

You can see how Amy has that very,

Artistic and detailed nature.

And Jo essentially is a very matronly character inside.

She's motherly in a very different way.

Filling her character to take care.

And somebody pointed this out to me that in the 1949 film,

A lot of Jo's dresses,

When she's younger,

They almost have this military look with these high buttons.

And then she admires boys and wants to join the army.

So it makes sense.

And then she has this other side of her that she's this maternal mother nature.

And then she wears these very nice,

Comfortable little scarves.

Well,

I mean,

She's not really glorifying masculinity in this way anymore,

Right?

I mean,

I guess with the historical environment,

We can understand that because the war is over.

But she isn't really displaying that really misogyny that I think we've talked about before.

Where she's just like,

Oh,

I've got to go with just everything a boy does.

Everything a boy does is great.

I like it better.

It would be unfair for us to be like,

Oh,

Now she's resigned to be feminine.

I feel like she is picking the feminine aspects that fit her and suit her.

And I think Amy has a very good understanding of that.

But yeah,

Of course,

She's a bit of,

But she's still a bit of a disaster because like when she burst the buttons off her glove,

I just kind of witzed a bit.

I'm just like,

Oh,

I hope the glove made it out okay.

I think in the 1949 film,

You can see how she starts to wear more softer colors.

She sort of has still these sort of military type of dresses.

Their cutting is a bit different.

So you can see this slow transition of her growing up to be a woman in a very subtle ways through her clothing.

I think 1994 shows this a bit as well.

Her clothing,

She seems to sit a lot more comfortably in her clothing,

But also with her hair as well.

See,

He does it up in a more mature style,

But maybe not to the same extent as it mentioned in 49.

But it also shows that she becomes more comfortable in her own skin.

Yes,

She definitely has more instances of being,

You know,

Not fitting into dresses and just feeling like just like kind of like a horse.

I think she's like described like a horse in a flower garden.

And she has less and less of that now.

She's very tall,

Very clunky.

I had one friend who was a very,

Very tall woman.

And she told me that when she was in school,

It was always so difficult because she always felt as an outsider because she was half taller than most boys and most girls.

So I think Jo would feel the same in her isolation.

I read somewhere that Louisa Mayall,

She was taller than most men.

I'm a very short person.

So I don't really know what they like.

But I would imagine that if you are like 21 years old and you look very different to all the other people around you,

It's natural that you feel very different to others.

For sure.

And I think maybe not surprising that she contemplated another way of life as the forexing of someone with her features.

She has pretty realistic expectations that,

Well,

She can be married for money because the way she looks like.

Unless she marries Lori and she doesn't marry Lori.

No,

She wouldn't just look.

She would look the part.

Yeah,

At least not at that time.

Thank you so much for listening.

Emily and I continue our chat next time.

Take care and make good choices.

Bye.