How Self Compassion Can Change Your Life

46:49

46:49

How Self Compassion Can Change Your Life

by Michelle Chalfant

Rated

4.9

Type

talks

Activity

Meditation

Suitable for

Everyone

Plays

180

Today, we’re discussing self-compassion with none other than Dr. Kristin Neff. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by self-criticism or caught in the comparison traps of social media, this episode is your antidote. Dr. Neff is here to share her groundbreaking research on self-compassion and how it can reduce depression, anxiety, and even those dreaded feelings of shame and guilt.

Self Compassion Self Criticism Self Worth Mindfulness Self Acceptance Self Care Mental Health Anxiety Depression Shame Guilt Stress Trauma Failure Parenting Burnout Mindful Self Compassion

Meet your Teacher

Michelle Chalfant

Charlotte, NC, USA

Meet your Teacher

Michelle Chalfant

Charlotte, NC, USA

Transcript

Hi, I'm Michelle Chalfant, Psychotherapist, Holistic life coach, And human, Just like you, Learning to navigate life's challenges. With over 25 years experience, I teach people how to get healthy using the adult chair model. The adult chair model is where simple psychology meets grounded spirituality, And it teaches us how to become healthy adults. From anxiety and depression to codependency and relationship issues, You can use the adult chair for just about anything. Each week, I share practical tips, Tools, And advice from myself and a wide range of experts on how to get unstuck, How to live authentically, And how to truly love yourself, All while sitting in your adult chair. Welcome to the adult chair podcast. Hello, Everybody, And welcome to the adult chair podcast. I am Michelle Chalfant, And today we have a very special guest on. She's a second timer. Dr. Kristen Neff is joining us again. We're talking all about a topic that I am passionate about. It is self-compassion. Self-compassion is so important, Especially I'm realizing in this day and age when we've got social media. Without self-compassion, I mean, We can have increased anxiety and depression and so much judgment. We need to learn how to cultivate a practice of self-compassion. We talked about that and so much more. What is self-compassion, The benefits of it, And no, It's not just for women only. We even talked about that. We talked about why it's so hard, And even how do you build this with your children? She is a wealth of knowledge. This is a life skill that every single human needs to learn how to build into their lives every single day. It absolutely will help you to live a more peaceful and even a happier life. Let me tell you a little bit about Kristen Neff. Dr. Kristen Neff is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research. She has more than 20 years in the field of self-compassion. Has been recognized as one of the most influential researchers in psychology worldwide. She's the author of the bestselling books, Self-Compassion and Fierce Self-Compassion. And along with her colleague, Chris Germer, She's developed the empirically supported mindful self-compassion program. She also has a new book coming out called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout coming out fall of 2024. Without further ado, Here we go with Dr. Kristen Neff. So welcome back to the adult chair podcast, Kristen Neff. Thanks, Michelle. I'm really glad you invited me back. Yes, I am really, Really happy to have you because this to me, I was just sharing with you is such an important topic. And I do not feel that people exactly understand what it is, Who it's for, And how to apply it. And the power of it, It sounds like such a simple term, Oh, Self-compassion, Oh, That's easy. No, No, No, No, No. It will change your life. And I don't say that lightly. And I also said to you in my next book, I am, I've quoted you quite a few times in that chapter, I have a whole chapter and self-compassion is so important. So you are the researcher on self-compassion and thank you for the work that you've done because it is such an important topic. Let's start out with what self-compassion is. What is it? Right. So if you break down the word compassion in the Latin, Passion means to suffer, Come as with. So it's really, How do we show up for suffering? And normally we think of it as how do we show up for other people when they're suffering? So self-compassion is simply how do we show up for ourselves when we suffer? Are we warm? Are we kind? Are we supportive? Do we listen like we would with someone else who was suffering? Or more typically, Do we beat ourselves up, Shame ourselves, Blame ourselves and actually kneecap ourselves and our ability to get through difficult moments? And the research really is pretty overwhelming at this point. There's like over 7, 000 studies showing that if you show up for yourself with kindness, Warmth and support in a sense of connectedness, Which is really kind of the more formal definition of self-compassion, Which I can get into. But if you show up with yourself with these three elements, You know, You're present with yourself mindfully, You feel connected to others, You realize you're a human being, You aren't alone and you're kind and warm with yourself, It will radically change your life for the better. Reduce things like depression, Anxiety, Suicidal ideation, Even increase happiness, Life satisfaction. So it's really, And it's not that difficult. I mean, It's hard to remember to do and there are blocks that get in the way, But we already know how to do it for other people. The trick is to show up for ourselves the same way we show up for those we love. So why don't we, Why don't we have what I would call, I don't know what the term would be, I'm just making this up, But like, Why don't we naturally have self-compassion versus like you said, It's so much easier to have compassion for others. If someone else is going through a hard time, Most humans, Not all, But most of us show up and, Oh, You know, What's going on, How can I help you? It's, You know, And we're compassionate with them. But why do we have such a hard time? Well, So I hope people don't beat themselves up for beating themselves up because it's actually more natural. So there's two reasons, They're both evolutionary and cultural reasons. So evolutionarily, So we're designed as human beings when we are personally threatened to go into fight, Flight, Or freeze mode. I'm sure your listeners have heard about this or you talk about this, Right? So when we're threatened and of course we feel threatened, Either when we make a mistake or we fail in some way or we feel inadequate, Or if something really difficult happens in our life, When we feel personally threatened, We go into fight, Flight, Or freeze. But of course the problem is in us, Right? We're the problem usually. So we turn that response inward. We fight ourself with criticism, You know, Kind of from the innocent desire thinking that maybe it'll help us get our shit together so we'll be safe. Or we, Like we flee into a sense of shame and isolation, Right? We kind of feel like we're going to protect ourselves from the judgments of others and we hang our head in shame or we freeze and we get stuck and we ruminate, Which of course just makes things worse. Now when your best friend, For instance, Maybe makes a big faux pas at a party, You're so personally threatened. So you're actually more able easily to tap into another system that evolved, Which is natural, The care system, That honestly evolved more to care for others, Like our family members or our group members, Which is where we extend warmth and feeling of connection. So it's more natural to respond to ourselves with the threat defense system and our friends and our loved ones with the care system. So we have to do a little hack, Right? We can do it, But we have to start treating ourselves like we treat our loved ones. And then we tap into, Like physiologically, When you put your hand on your heart, Just as if someone else puts their hand on your shoulder, Your body responds the same way, Like cortisol lowers, Heart rate variability increases. So we can do the hack, But it's not natural. So that's just one reason. And then add to that culture. I mean, Almost no one was raised with the idea that it's good to be self-compassionate. We should be self-sacrificing. We should always put others first, Right? And so people think like it's a zero-sum game, As if if we give three units of compassion to ourselves, We'll only have two left over for others. You know, It doesn't work that way. The more compassion that flows inward, Actually, The more we're able to show up for others. And people, You know, We can get into it. There's all sorts of like baloney myths, Like it's going to undermine your motivation. It won't. It increases it. I think people think it makes you weak. It doesn't. It makes you stronger. So there's a lot of misconceptions about self-compassion that, Frankly, Just stand in the way. They're roadblocks. They're fake. They're myths. They aren't true. I have heard that before. Maybe it was because I read some of your research from my book. The whole part about making you weak, Though, I think I probably read it from you. But it's interesting that people would think that if we speak compassionately to ourselves, Then it weakens us and we should be tough and we should push through and we should keep going and don't cry and don't show the emotions and just keep going. It's like, No, No, No. Right. Well, I should say there are two main faces of self-compassion, Which I like to call the tender and the fierce. Tender self-compassion is about acceptance. You know, We accept ourselves as flawed human beings. We accept our emotions. Things are hard. Life is hard sometimes. But there's also fierce self-compassion. So one way compassion is defined in psychology is concern with the alleviation of suffering. That's a broad definition. Well, So sometimes acceptance, Like accepting ourselves, Helps alleviate suffering. We aren't superhumans, But we don't want to accept all our behaviors if they're causing harm. And we certainly don't want to accept situations we find ourselves in that are unhealthy. So fierce self-compassion is all about taking action to protect ourselves. You know, Maybe say no, Drawing boundaries, Leaving harmful relationships or toxic work environments, Or it's also about providing for our needs, Figuring out, Well, What is it that I need to be happy and actually doing something to make that happen and then motivating change. So motivation, Motivating change is a huge part of healthy self-compassion. So that's part of the confusion. People think it's only about the tender acceptance. Sometimes it is, But sometimes it's about doing things. But also, You know, Think about it. If you had a friend who's really upset and you say, You're so stupid, I hate you. Is that really going to make them stronger, More able to deal with the challenging situation? You're just going to depress your friend and make it a million times harder. But if you say, Hey, I'm here for you. What do you need? I got your back. That's going to make your friend stronger. And it's the exact same thing with ourself. If we're an ally as opposed to an enemy to ourselves, Of course we're going to be stronger when facing the battle of life. You know, It's so funny. It's kind of obvious if you think about it, But people just have all these kind of preconceptions that it's just about, Oh, Well, You know, Poor me. That's not self-compassion. That's something like self-pity has nothing to do with showing up for yourself in a healthy way. Give us some examples. I like that you just said that it's not about self-pity. And I think some people might fall into the victim's stance and, You know, And go there. And that's not self-compassion. So can you discern, Like, Tell us the difference there? So when I first decided to research self-compassion, I had to come up with an operational model so I could create a scale to measure it. So there's actually three main elements of self-compassion. There's being present with ourself, Acknowledging we're in pain or we're hurting. There's the kindness and the warmth, But also a sense of common humanity. This is the key that differentiates pity from compassion. So, Michelle, If I were to pity you, You wouldn't like it because there'd be a sense of separation. I'd be looking down and you're like, Oh, Poor Michelle. But if I have compassion for you, It's like, Oh, Michelle, I've been there. You know, That's only human. There's a sense of connectedness. The same thing with self-compassion. Pity is poor me. No one else can understand my travails, You know. So that's self-pity, It's self-focus. Self-compassion, By definition, The way at least I've defined it, We frame our experience in light of the shared human experience. We remember that to be human means to be imperfect, To make mistakes. We fall down and we get back up again and that's how we learn and that's how we grow. You know, We aren't superhuman robots. And so when we have self-compassion, It's like, Wow, You know, As a human being, This is hard. I'm not the only one. That doesn't mean we're comparing like some, Yes, Of course, People suffer different ways, Different amounts, But we frame the experience of hardship in light of the shared human experience. And that's where we draw our strength from, Actually. Talk about, You used the word comparing. I was thinking, Wow, I'm wondering how much more self-compassion is needed now with social media. I mean, I remember, I mean, I don't see clients anymore, But when I did, It was when social media was really coming online. I stopped seeing clients about four years ago, But it was when, You know, Suddenly there's Facebook and then there's Instagram and all of these things. And I found my clients continuing to come in. And a lot of them were really feeling thrown by so-and-so was posting this on social media. So then they felt bad, Worse about themselves. And it was like, What the heck is going on in our world? And I'm thinking about self-compassion comparison. It's so hard to not compare yourself to someone else that you're seeing on social media. We forget that they've taken about 100 videos and they're posting the perfect video and the perfect light and the perfect everything. Talk about, Have you seen, I don't know the answer to this question, But as far as overwhelm, Anxiety and things like that since the era of social media, Which what has it been, 15 years now that it's really come online? Yeah. And so I think what social media is tapping into, What you're pointing to is actually a broader distinction between a self-compassion and self-esteem. When I first, My first study was titled like self-compassion, A healthier alternative to self-esteem. So it's really important to know the difference. Both are forms of self-worth. The self-worth of self-compassion comes from being a flawed human being like everyone else. I'm intrinsically worthy because I'm a human being. Self-esteem, The word esteem is like a judgment or an evaluation. Am I worthy or not? It's not presumed, Right? And why am I worthy? It's because I'm special and above average. I mean, Let's face it, Michelle, If I said your podcast is average, You'd be like, Oh, And if you said, Kristen, Your work is average, I'm going to be like, Oh, Because self-esteem is inherently for most people comparative, Right? So we feel good about ourselves when we're special and above average. When other people are perceived to do better than us, Our sense of self-worth takes a hit. With self-compassion, Because it's not comparative, It's like, You know, Inherent to our just our humanness, It's not based on social comparison. So this is, You know, Whether the whole advertising, For instance, World feeds on the need for comparative self-esteem, Buy our jeans and you'll be worthy. And social media also feeds like a vulture on this need for social comparison and feeling good about ourselves. So how many likes do you have? You know, She looks great in that photo. Is she using filter? I mean, I have friends who are like friends who are my age, Middle-aged woman. They put filters on. They look like they're 30. It was like, That's not reality. So our self-esteem is being based on this illusion. And that bit has really been negative. It was already bad social comparison. It's always been a problem, But it's really kind of a self-social comparison on steroids now with social media. And yeah, It's really difficult when we need to give ourselves compassion for all the pain we feel on social media. I mean, Social media itself is, You know, Can be used for good or for bad. I mean, You know, Our work, We use social media to get our message out. So it's not inherently bad. When we start using it as a source of self-esteem, That's when it starts really amplifying our suffering. So it's such a good point there. I'm thinking about the kids of today and how they're growing up with it. And that's what they're doing. This is where they get their self-esteem. I mean- Exactly. You know. It can be very superficial. I mean, It's not always, You know, There are podcasts like yours. There are ways in which it can be used to deepen people. But I think most people aren't using it in that deeper way. They're using it just to get their like little self-esteem fix or the dopamine fix of, Oh, Interesting story, Or it's starting to harm people's ability to think deeply or even focus for a long time. And that's the slightly scary bit about it. What about, When we're talking about motivation, Something I think I read from you was about motivating kids. That was fascinating. How you actually, You know, I think about so many parents that I know personally and professionally, You know, We would, If you don't get these grades or if you don't do this, Then you're in trouble or you're grounded or whatever it is. How do we motivate, Not just our, You talked about ourselves, But what about our kids using self-compassion? Because when I read what you wrote, I was like, Well, This is flipped. Like, This is not what I would think. Well, It's not just, If you don't get good grades, You'll be grounded. It's also, If you get good grades, I will love you. You're such a good boy or good girl. You got great grades, You know? So sometimes the positive, Dangling the positive carrot can also be harmful. I mean, Not as harmful as like the negative stuff, But again, What you're doing is you're telling your kids that their worth is contingent on success, On performance, On getting it right, On getting those A's. And that's the problem because this isn't gonna surprise you, Michelle. It's a truism, But it's true. Failure is our best teacher, Right? So if we aren't allowed to fail, How are we gonna learn from our failures? And so some people think self-compassion, Like this bottom line of unconditional self-worth means we'll lower our standards. If my self-worth is a contingent on getting that A+, Well, I'll just settle for the B+. I won't try as hard. That's not true. What is true, Though, Is the reason for why you want that A+, Or to get the very best shifts. You don't do it just to feel good about yourself because you feel good about yourself inherently. You do it because you care, Because it's important to you. And so maybe if it's not that important to your life goals, Maybe it's not so important to get that A+, But if it is, You'll do it. So here's an example. We did it, We published a study last year with NCAA athletes. So you know in the States, These are like, We're top level, UT Austin, Where I'm at, And other teams. Second best is not good enough. I mean, These kids, Their scholarships are based on their performance. A lot of them wanna go into the pros, Make their career out of it. So, But this is really, Truly important to who they are. So we taught athletes how to be more self-compassionate when they had a mistake in their games or their training routine. We had them, We actually did it, Interestingly, We didn't use the word self-compassion because we knew it would just create all this baggage that was unnecessary. We called it inner strength training, Right? We helped them imagine, Imagine the ideal coach who a compassionate coach gives it to you straight. They aren't gonna say that there is not a problem if there is, Because the most helpful thing was help you improve your game. But done from perspective, I believe in you, You can do it, I'm here for you, How can I help you? So supportive, Compassionate coach, As opposed to like the mean, Belittling coach or a piece of crap because you didn't do that well, Right? What we found, Not only did it increase self-compassion in their mental health, It increased their performance, Both self-rated and coach-rated athletic performance. So, And because of this very simple thing, If you're worried about, You know, I think about athletes, They're worried about, If I don't make the shot, What it's gonna say about me, They are not in the flow state, They are not gonna be able to be at their best. When they do their best, They're in that flow state, They aren't thinking about themselves, They're just doing what they've been trained to do. That's facilitated by self-compassion from this idea that if I fail, That's okay, I'll just learn and grow. You know, That gives you the sense of safety needed and there isn't an empirical connection between self-compassion and flow, Which is part of the reason I think it's so good for athletes. And so we talk about athletics, School, I mean, Business, We get the same over and over again, Self-compassion actually increases performance, Doesn't make you lower your standards. And I would wonder, As you're saying that, Like, That's fascinating. And I love that you, It's interesting you had to change what you called it, It wasn't called self-compassion, But I would wonder, I'm sure you've done some study on this, But what happened also in their personal lives because of what they were doing basically at work as athletes, They're learning the self-compassion, Did it trickle into their personal lives? Did it trickle into their relationships to how they parent to et cetera? Yeah, So we don't have research on that, But I know, So one of my ex-dissertation students who did the study with me, You know, She's got a training company in this field and she, Just a personal story she talked about is these college athletes, Not only did it improve their game, It really did help change their life. That's why the coaches were on board because coaches of course care about their players' mental health. And so a lot of the research, Yeah, It helps you at work, But it does generalize to other areas of your life. I mean, The research, It's just like, There's so much research, A friend of mine said, It's getting boring because it shows the same thing. It's good in your relationships, It's good for parenting, It's good for leadership, It's good at work, It's good for exercise. I mean, The reason it's so good is think about it, Anything you want to do in life, If you're an ally, If you have your own back, If you're going to support and care for yourself and desire health for yourself, Of course it's going to lead to better outcomes. It's really a no brainer. That's why sometimes I think like, Well, It is catching on, But like, It's so obvious to me. Oh my God, It is to me too. But remember, It seems obvious, But there are reasons we don't do it. A, Evolution. We're programmed to be hard on ourselves. So don't, Again, Don't beat yourself up for not seeing the light. And culture as well. I think that's starting to shift slowly, But our culture doesn't really help us. So maybe once our culture helps us, We'll override the biological instinct a little more easily, I don't know. So when you say biological instinct, Is the reason that we're so hard on ourselves, Let's say our inner judge or our inner critic, Whatever you want to call it, Right? It feels bad, Whatever that inner voice is, Right? Would you say that that's coming from our ego or is that just coming from just part of who we are because it's been passed down? And again, I'm splitting hairs here, But I was just curious what your thought is around that. It depends how you're going to make, You have to define ego. But if you think, If you define ego as sense of self, I would say the arising of the emotions or the reaction, For instance, The feeling of shame. Even if you were in a state where there's not a lot of ego or sense of self going on, Sense of shame is actually biologically programmed into us that when we feel we've done something that's maybe harmed others, The sense of shame arises as just even a physical sensation. Now, It's more likely to arise, We're more likely to think about have we harmed others or done something embarrassing if we're focused on our ego. And of course, If we are really focused on our ego, It's going to make it worse, It's going to exacerbate the shame and everything. But it doesn't mean like you might be an enlightened meditation master. In certain situations, The feeling of the experience of shame might arise just naturally, Just like anger arises, Just like fear arises. Some of these are just part of the fact that we're in human bodies. But do we attach to it? Do we identify it with it? Do we exacerbate it? Or do we just see it rise up and fall away? So for instance, Shame still arises for me, Absolutely. Even though I've been practicing self-compassion for 20 years, It still arises, But I don't fixate on it. I just like, I actually give myself compassion for feeling shame and it arises and it lingers forever long, It's going to linger, And then eventually it passes. So, You know, We are human beings in human bodies and there are some things that have just been given to us, By the way, Our brains interact with other people and social situations that we don't control our thoughts and emotions. I have a feeling that's not going to be news to you. No, Not news to me. Yeah, They come out of left field for sure. But I would say, Based on what you're saying, If you're still, If you're somebody that is the, What I would call the master of self-compassion, If I may call you a master around self-compassion, The guru of self-compassion. Oh, No, No, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Just let it land, Let it, Just take it in. Okay, All right, Okay, Sorry. Take it in, Sister. Okay, So- Oh, My Christian G, Sorry. Okay, So if you are someone that is experiencing shame, Then yes, Again, We are, We have these, We're spiritual beings in a human body, So we're still having, But I would, I want to ask you this question. Do you notice that the shame comes up less and lingers for less time? And what's different about it compared to the, Before you were the self-compassion guru? Yeah, So it comes up less often, Kind of, You know, I mean, I still make mistakes as much, Maybe not as much as ever, I still do. I mean, I always say, Thank goodness I'm a self-compassion teacher, Not a mindfulness teacher, Because I don't have to pretend to be like, I'm always so mindful, I never say anything I regret. No, I'm still very human, And I'm kind of short-tempered, And just, You look at my mom, You'd understand why. So I still make mistakes, And when I make a mistake, Especially one that I, That goes against my values, Like, Oh, I really wish I hadn't sent that email type thing, The shame still arises, But really what is different is instead of saying, You know, Like, Oh, Kristen, You're a bad person, La la la, It's like, I just feel it, Like, I feel it mainly as a physical sensation, I'm there for myself, It doesn't last very long, And then very quickly, Like, Almost like 30 seconds after I sent the email, My apology email comes. So in other words, It still arises, And shame is a useful emotion, Because it really is a signal, It depends why you're feeling shame, But sometimes it's a signal that you've done something that's against your values, And in that case, It's really more like guilt. Sometimes it actually is more like guilt. Shame is, I am bad, Guilt is, I've done something bad. And so for me, It's more guilt, But it still feels like shame, Like, How do you know it's shame? Oftentimes, Like, There's this white, Hot feeling that spreads throughout your body, You know, You can then feel it in your face, And it's almost like energetically, It's like a, Almost this boom, This hot feeling, Like, Oh, I can't believe I did that, Or I wish I hadn't done that, Or something like that. So that does still arise, But it doesn't last very long. It doesn't stick. Yeah, It doesn't stick in, Like it used to stick. Especially if I hold it in compassion. So one of the things, One of the ways you practice self-compassion is, The three elements, Mindfulness, Common humanity, And kindness, You can think of it as loving, Connected presence, Or it's like a warm, Connected spaciousness, Which is another way to talk about presence. So one of the things I'll do is I'll actually imagine myself, Often we identify with our thoughts and feelings, Like, Oh, I am bad, Or I've got the thought I'm bad, Or I can't believe I did that, Or this hurts. And so when you remember that you're bigger than that thought and feeling, You're actually this warm, Loving presence, Then I actually physically imagine myself being this warm, Loving spaciousness. And I just allow that feeling of shame to arise in the spaciousness. I don't cling to it. I don't merge with it. I just kind of see it and allow it to arise. I don't try to push it away or shame myself for feeling it. It just goes more quickly. And I don't build a story out of it, Which is so important, As you know, The story of you and who you are and all that. Oh God, I just lost what you said. I was just going to say, You said something so important. Oh, I don't build a story about it. Make a story of it? Prior to that, Wait, What'd you say? The warm spaciousness, I allow. No, Like it comes in, But you see yourself separate from it. And I think what we do as humans, Oftentimes is we'll say, Oh, I'm so bad. I can't believe I did that. And then we pile on, Where what I'm hearing you say is you separate self. So let's talk about the two selves. Yeah, So we've got the small S and the capital S. So talk about those two. Yeah, So I'm increasingly talking about self-compassion as a process of switching from the perspective of kind of small self, Which we feel separate, We feel limited, We feel flawed, We feel less capable, And self with a capital S in which we're connected with the whole, We feel naturally compassionate, We feel much more empowered, Much more capable. And so compassion, Actually, The self receiving the compassion is often our small S self, The one that feels like hurt, Ashamed, Or not good enough, Or flawed. But the self giving the compassion is our big S self. And we know this, We know what it feels like when we're feeling compassion for others, Which is a much more common experience. Let's say your friend comes to you and so upset. When you're with your friend, Typically we aren't thinking so much about ourselves, Right? We're with our friend, We're with their pain, We're thinking, How can I help this person? And we feel connected to them, The warmth is naturally arising. So we're more in the presence of our big self. There's lots of experiences, Maybe in nature you have it, Or with your kids, Or having a moment of quiet. But the problem with, Or I shouldn't say the problem, The challenge with self-compassion is when we're aiming inward to the small self, We tend to naturally be identified with our small self. And then we think, It feels fake to give myself compassion. Well, It does feel fake for the small self to give compassion, Right? We aren't used to it, It feels awkward, It feels hard. You may think, Oh, I wasn't given compassion, I don't know how to do it. But big self has no problem with compassion because it has, Because big self is not really a lot of, There's no separation of big self. Big self is our ability to tap into the larger whole, Being, Presence, Whatever you want to call it. So it's almost like there's the wave and the ocean, They use, You know, It's a common metaphor, But it's so useful. I love it, I love this metaphor though. If the wave is the small self and the ocean is the big self, And normally we're trapped on the waves, On the surface and it's choppy, We feel like out of control, Especially when it's stormy weather. And then so what you're doing when you're giving yourself compassion, Also the same process when you're giving someone else compassion, Is we're like, We're going down into the ocean itself, Which is calmer, It's more peaceful, It's more loving. And then that's kind of the source of compassion. So you may think of it as just a shift into this bigger self. That's why actually one of the most effective ways to give yourself compassion, We show in research, Is just to imagine what if I had a very good friend, A loved friend who was going through the exact same thing I was going through. So you might imagine, Okay, Let's say Jill was going through this situation. How would I respond? What would I feel? Then what we're doing when we do that is we're actually accessing our big self, Our compassionate self. And then you just kind of flip it and do it towards yourself, But still coming from that perspective of big self. This is the thing, It's actually not that difficult. What's challenging is to remember, Again, Because of culture and evolutionary reasons, It doesn't come totally naturally at first. It's easier with time, It really is. I love what you just said, Because I think on our planet right now, People are starting to recognize the fact that there are two selves and that we are connected to something much bigger than who we are. And I don't mean like a little man on a cloud up in the sky, Like there's a big giant source of unconditionally loving energy. And we are very much part of that. And we've come down here to have this experience in human form, In our human suits. And that's our little tiny-ass self that is having these experiences where we're beating up on ourselves and we're in the inner critic and the inner judger. And then it's almost like we can shift a dial with self-compassion and we can almost go into a remembering, Because I have that experience that you're speaking of, Like, Hold on a second, It's not who I am. Like, I'm part of the ocean, Right? I'm part of this bigger energy. And then we tap into that beautiful energetic flow state. And all of a sudden, Everything feels like it expands out, Not only in my thinking loving thoughts, But I feel the love coming through me and the shame is evaporated, The depression, The sadness, The whatever. And again, I don't say that lightly. I was someone that was depressed 20-some years ago. I don't say that lightly. So please hear me now. But using a tool like self-compassion is a tool that we should use from now until the day we die, Honestly, Because it can turn around. Talk about this for a moment. Things like depression and anxiety and some of these things that we most, So many of us humans struggle with. Yeah, Absolutely. And I love the way you talk about that. And it's funny, People don't talk about it enough. And I usually don't even talk about it necessarily publicly, But it's so true. Sometimes I'll just be sitting in my backyard and I'll start resonating with the ocean and it feels good. Like physically, It feels good. It's almost like having a few glasses of wine. It's like, You know, You feel more relaxed. You feel more energized. It's actually very pleasant. And that's where happiness and peace is. Because you think of us as waves on the ocean. And by the way, It's important that it's not like the ocean is our true self and the wave is our false self. We are both, We are both the ocean and the wave simultaneously. And also waves have, You know, That's where individuality is. That's where works of art get created. That's where, You know, Like music and, You know, It's not like one's even better than the other. But the problem is, Is when we're identified with being a wave and we forget about the ocean. So you might say when we're identified with our separate self and we forget that actually we are also the ocean simultaneously, Then it's like all these waves, Like they feel alone and they're trying to connect with other waves and they can't. And it's like, You know, And then we feel anxious and we feel like afraid and we feel lonely and we feel separate. Like just because we've forgotten, Oh yeah, We're also, Yes, We are a wave. It's not like we aren't. We are also the ocean. And that's like a big also. It's not like we are also, Big also. And I mean, I don't think, You know, Some of my feeling is you don't want to do this as spiritual bypass. Some people, I don't think put you in this category at all. Some people say, Oh, Don't worry about it. You know, You're really just the ocean. You're really just, We're all one, You're all peaceful because there's a lot of suffering going on among the waves. Wars are being fought. People are being abused. You know, Trauma is happening. So we don't want to like somehow think the ocean is the only thing that's important. We forget about the suffering of the waves. But we do want to, Because you might say our true nature is that we are both, We're our individual wave and we're the whole ocean simultaneously, That we have to work to alleviate suffering. You know, What is compassion about? That's like the ocean trying to alleviate the suffering of the waves. The ocean cares about the suffering of the waves. Also adores and loves the beauty and creativity created among the waves, But cares about the suffering of the waves. And we need to care about our own individual suffering and the suffering of others. So it's not like we just need to bypass that. So for instance, Let's say a feeling of pain or shame arises. Some people might say, Oh, Well, It doesn't matter. I'm just the ocean. You know, We're all one. You know, That's like, It's not facing the reality. And that's why you get some spiritual teachers. They're just revving with the ocean. And as a wave, They're like abusing people or like not living poorly. As you know, You gotta be both, The ocean and the wave, Both are true. And then ultimately it's like, Is there even a difference between the ocean and a wave? And we can get into philosophy, Which I don't think we even need to do. But I think experientially, And this is something you could actually do. And sometimes I, Actually, I usually don't talk about this, But because you went there and because maybe your audience is used to it, It's really a way you could access compassion, Self-compassion, Like recognize, Oh, Okay, I'm identified with small self. Let me just drop into my big self, The ocean, For a moment. And however you do that, You might drop into it by thinking about how you would treat a friend. You might drop into it by like, Oh, What would Obi-Wan Kenobi say right now? Maybe some cultural myth of people who kind of, Are a spiritual teacher or Jesus or whatever works for you in terms of, It's expressing what it feels like to be in the ocean. And then that's a way when you drop into the ocean, But then remember, You wanna come back to that wave. You don't wanna leave that wave stranded. Come back to your sense of self and be there for yourself. And yes, It hurts and it hurts to feel separate and I'm in pain right now. And so it's not all there is to have, And it's both, But how can I embrace the pain, Embrace that feeling of separation, Give myself that love and that feeling of connectedness. And then what happens is the waves are changing constantly anyway. Then that wave just changes and then some other emotion or thought or feelings is gonna arise. I had a spiritual teacher one time, She said to me, I was going through a really hard time. And I said, I can't handle the pain. She goes, Okay, You can feel the pain. I go, Well, What do I do after that? She goes, And you breathe. I said, Oh, What a concept, You know? And I was like, Oh yeah, You're right. And it doesn't last. You know, We keep breathing and then I'm able to go through the words of, Okay, Now let me bring on self-compassion. But sometimes it's like, I can't even breathe. And it's like, Oh wait, I can breathe and feel right at the same time. I'm in the wave and then I'm gonna keep going. And with breath and all of a sudden I'll go, Okay, Well, Maybe I can make it through. And you talk a little bit with us about, Give us some examples of self-compassion. And by the way, It's not for women only. Let's just, Let me say that again. It's for every human on the planet. But how do we, And I like that you changed it for the guys on the basketball team, For the basketball team, Right? Yeah. Whatever term you got to use, We've got to start practicing self-compassion because it does bring you back into that oneness state. Call it the ocean, Call it the source, Call it God, Call it universe, Whatever the heck it is. It's where we're all from. So how do we get ourselves back there using self-compassion because it's hard to make that jump from the yardstick going from, You know, Zero to 46. It's like, No, How do we go zero to one, To two, To three, To four, To five? How do we move up that stick? Yeah, So it's really, There's no right way to practice self-compassion. It really is what works for you. So for some people, For instance, They're more physically oriented. There's a research study that just came out earlier this year that showed 20 seconds a day, Two zero seconds a day of doing something like putting your hands on your heart and just saying, I'm here for you, Dramatically increases your mental wellbeing. So the reason touch is so important is because remember part of the instinct to criticize yourself comes from our physiology, From our, You know, It has to do with like the sympathetic nervous system arousal state. So you put your hands on your body, You're probably activating the vagus nerve. It's not, We think so, We don't know for sure, But what we do know is you're actually moving into parasympathetic reaction, Lowering cortisol and those reactions, Increasing heart rate variability just by, And it doesn't, You know, If that's too much, You can do like a fist of strength. You can touch your face. You can, You know, Whatever works. You can do arms akimbo like Wonder Woman, Whatever works for you to feel physically supported. That's a very good way for many people. Just that little physical gesture. There is things like you just imagining, How would I treat a friend? Or what would Ted Lasso say to me? Or, You know, So no, Literally whatever works. Imagery, Thinking how you treat a friend. For some people, Meditation is a really powerful way of actually changing your habitual reactions, But it's not for everything. And our research shows it actually doesn't matter what you do, Whether you meditate, Whether you do through 20 seconds of hand on heart, Or you say something like the self-compassion break, You bring in the three components of compassion. What does matter is that you just practice this response when you suffer. The more you practice, The more the habit, The stronger the habit will be. Yeah, I used to tell my clients, Imagine having a parent that loves you, A grandparent, Aunt, Uncle, Best friend, I don't care who it is, But imagine that they're standing right next to you as you're beating up on yourself, As you're in this horrible space, What would they say to you? Like, Just imagine them right next to you or in front of you, Let them speak to you to help move you out of that state that you're in. I love that. I also think of part psychology is very, Very useful. I'm friends with Dick Shorts, You know, Created an internal family systems. There's a lot of part psychologies. Recognizing that it's just a part of us is criticizing ourself. And that part actually thinks it's helping. You know, We don't want to demonize that part. It's just, It's the only language it knows how to use. That's his role. It thinks it's going to help you stay safe, Ward off danger, Maybe change your behavior so you'll be less vulnerable. You know, So- I do a ton of parts work with this adult chair model. Ours is more spiritual parts work. Yeah, I mean, I absolutely believe we're a whole bunch of parts made up. It's like a whole bunch of pieces to a pie made up into the whole- We're at one wave. We're actually lots of waves. We're lots of waves. Absolutely. Tell us one last point I just want to ask you. We just touched on something like depression. What is the research around, I don't know, Depression, Anxiety, That kind of thing. And you even mentioned suicide. Talk about that just for a moment before we end here. Yeah, And also I want to touch on burnout a little bit, Which is really- Yes, Yes, Yes. We'll do that. So the research really is overwhelming how powerful it is for all those negative mind states, Because basically depression, Anxiety, Stress, And suicidal ideation is really a way to try to escape pain. Depression is a way of like shutting down in response to pain. Anxiety is being worried about pain, Is desire to prevent pain that might happen. So all of these are related to how, Not being overwhelmed by pain. And so what compassion does is because it's, You might say it's a way of wrapping our pain with love and support and a feeling of connectedness and presence. So what that does is it prevents the downward spiral into these things like suicidal ideation or depression or anxiety, Because you have another way to cope with the pain. Or eating disorders, Alcoholism, All these things are ways to try to cope with pain. So when you have self-compassion, You have a healthier way to cope with your pain and it's actually more effective. And that's why it's so powerful in reducing these negative mind states. Including, I wanted to mention burnout because I have a new book out called Mindful Self-Compassion to Burnout. You know, And burnout is so ubiquitous. And sometimes it's people maybe with mental health struggles. Often it's just because people, They're in a situation that's untenable. They're overworked or like you're a healthcare worker and you can't do your job or the system's broken. And the natural response is to burn out, Which is kind of burnout. It's a little bit like depression. There's elements of there. We become exhausted and we shut down because we're so overwhelmed by the stress we're facing. We stop caring as much. It's called depersonalization. We stop caring as much about ourselves and others because it just hurts too much the fact that we can't get things done the way we want. And we feel incompetent because we blame ourselves for not being able to cope. So there's a lot of research showing that self-compassion is really effective antidote to burnout. So if you're in a situation where you've got kind of overwhelming stress, Instead of blaming yourself, Instead of just shutting down, You have another way to cope with that overwhelming stress. The tender self-compassion, The acceptance is, This is overwhelming. You know, It's kind of like, I'm not going to blame myself for it. Any human being would react this way in this situation. That's the tender. And the fierce is, Well, Is there anything I can do? I can't fix it, But maybe I can draw some boundaries. You know, Maybe I can change a situation. Maybe I can do small little things like small, You know, Small little breaks to meet my needs during the day. I'm going to reject the notion. Like for instance, Nurses often it's like, Oh, The patient comes first. No, I can't, I got to put my own oxygen mask on in order to, You know, That type of thing. And so I just, This new book really talks about how self-compassion can very powerfully help people reduce burnout and recover from burnout and also prevent it from happening in the first place. Thank you so much for that. I will go ahead and put that right in the show notes. And this was wonderful. Yes, Thank you. Kristen, You're just amazing. Yeah, For sure.