136 Depths Of The Collective Unconscious

Mr.

Callipson,

Good to see you.

Mr.

Mepagala.

Is that how you pronounce your last name?

Mepagala.

Mepagala.

Yeah.

I realize I never have said your last name.

Yeah,

No reason to.

Yeah.

So you're in New York right now,

Right?

I'm in Pennsylvania.

Oh,

Pennsylvania.

That's where I grew up.

Yeah.

So just back in my parents' house,

I fly back to LA in a few days.

And yeah,

Then pretty much start right back with everything in the new year.

So cool.

I don't know if I should have told you,

I don't use the video for these anymore.

So I don't know if you did your hair.

Oh,

Okay.

This is only audio.

Yeah,

Yeah.

But let all the listeners know that James looks very dashing right now.

I'm in my pajamas.

That is good to know.

It's good to know now because I was also in my pajamas.

I'm like,

Oh,

I'm going to be on Rowan's podcast.

I have to look somewhat presentable.

I'm glad I showered this morning.

I should have told you.

I've been at my parents' house just on Christmas holiday for the past week and a half unwinding,

Stepping away from everything and actually relaxing.

So that's been really nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The first time I saw you was right before COVID,

Maybe like four months before the pandemic really hit the world.

And I don't remember if I had made my decision yet,

But I remember speaking about,

I was thinking about going to Pacifica to get my PhD in something Jungian related.

We talked about it.

You were thinking about it too.

I'm really curious to speak with you now,

Given that you've been in that program for over a year because you've kind of gone on the path I didn't travel.

So of course,

I'm just curious.

I'm also of course,

Curious about the actual content of what you learned,

But in general,

How has it been?

What have you been doing?

It's been amazing.

Totally life-changing.

What program are you going to do?

Do you remember?

I honestly don't remember.

I think it was something,

I'm sure,

I was really obsessed with that concept of archetypes.

So I think one of the descriptions had something about archetypes and I think I was going to minor in mythology or something.

And I don't remember if that's how the programs are structured.

Yeah.

They have,

Yeah,

There's Jungian studies,

There's archetypes.

Maybe it's Jungian and archetypal studies.

They have a few programs that are all focused on different things.

I think there's one that emphasizes mythology typically.

But yeah.

What was your decision like as you were deciding whether or not to do that?

I was just thinking about the last hour of this point because I made the decision kind of quickly.

If I'm honest,

The biggest factor was like,

It's a lot of money and a lot of time.

It's like,

I mean,

I'd imagine it's basically another full-time job,

Not to mention the tuition fees.

And I think I can get maybe some useful percentage of what I want to get out of it for free from reading the books.

And it just seemed hard to justify,

It was the time and the money too.

But I did think a lot,

I mean,

Lifestyle is,

You know,

Had I gone that route,

I kind of decided I was going to move to Ventura because it's like a short commute to Santa Barbara.

I was even thinking back,

Like it was kind of a decision between women I was seeing.

Like,

Had I been on the West Coast,

I would have dated one person.

I came back to Asia,

Dated someone else.

I'm glad everything worked out because I'm with my lovely wife now.

So who cares?

But it was just very interesting.

I was like,

Man,

I kind of made a major life decision basically like that week that I caught up with you in LA.

Wow.

Yeah.

And I think,

Was I in the program at that point already?

It was before COVID.

Was it,

Did I talk to you for a podcast that I wanted to do?

I think that's what it was.

Well,

I was on your podcast.

But when we met in LA,

You weren't in the program yet.

I brought it up to you and you're like,

Oh yeah,

I was thinking about that.

And I guess you must have signed up.

Right.

Yeah.

And in that conversation,

That was actually something that really stuck with me just because I think that was the first time we met in person and just had a conversation.

And I think I was really taking the leap for myself when I was like,

I'm going to do the coaching thing.

I'm really going to do this men's personal development platform that I want to do.

And that's when I reached out to you and that's when we connected.

And then we had that conversation.

And at some point later,

That's when I made the decision to go to grad school.

But yeah,

Man,

It's been incredible.

It's been a really,

It's been a really incredible experience for me.

The program that I'm in,

Just for people listening for clarity,

I'm in a clinical program,

Which means I'm going to,

It's basically a certification.

I'll get a master's degree.

I'll be certified to be a marriage and family therapist.

I think the ones that you were looking at,

Because Pacifica offers nonclinical degrees.

So maybe the ones that you were looking at were not clinical degrees.

I know they have Jungian ones that are not clinical.

Okay.

You know,

I actually thought all of their programs were based in Jung.

So you're not actually really studying Jung's work specifically?

No,

We are.

It's a clinical program,

But it's a specialization in depth psychology.

So it's all kind of nested in Jung's work,

Joseph Campbell,

A lot of Eastern stuff,

Eastern spirituality is we've dabbled in some of our earlier coursework.

At this point now,

It's really just all of the stuff that the state of California requires for master's students to get licensed.

So like family systems,

Child psychology,

Addiction,

Substance use disorder,

Like all the technical stuff.

That's been the majority of my coursework,

But I do have a couple.

I do have some archetypal studies courses coming up this year.

I'm curious with like Campbell and Jung,

Because something that I think someone can't get from just reading their literature is how to apply those concepts to working with someone.

Like I've made my attempts,

You know,

Reading Jung and creating courses and bringing it into coaching,

But I'm curious like how they teach that or like what is the.

.

.

Because it's going from abstraction to practicality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good question because how would I describe it?

Honestly,

A lot of what we've learned so far is just the fundamental basics of building a therapeutic container with someone.

And so a lot of the Jungian and mythological stuff,

Dream work,

All the stuff that those guys are known for in their contributions,

That's a little bit more.

.

.

It's a little bit more advanced at this stage.

We haven't learned a whole lot.

I think as far as the coursework and as far as how that's like wrapped up in our training,

I think first of all,

It's a smaller piece of a larger puzzle that Pacifica tries to present or like maybe just.

.

.

Maybe that's not the best metaphor,

Like maybe just one brick in the kind of foundation of being a clinician that Pacifica wants to prepare people as which is a clinician that focuses on the total human being as opposed to just like a patient from like a medical model approach.

That's kind of how our health system functions.

We work on diagnoses and putting people into boxes and labels.

This is what's wrong with you.

Here's the solution.

Let's fix you and let's get on to the next person.

Instead of that medical model route,

It's a more holistic human approach where it's not really about the diagnosis.

It's about connecting with the human that's in front of you.

Like Jung in the mythology,

That's all very related to that aspect because you're talking about your understanding.

There's one perspective,

For example,

That psychopathology.

.

.

A way of looking at psychopathology is a way that the unconscious expresses itself.

Instead of looking at something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or something that you can find in the DSM-5,

Instead of just coming at it with a,

This is a disorder,

We need to fix this,

Let's give you medication or let's treat you differently than we would someone who's coming to therapy because they want to get their money figured out or their sex life figured out.

Let's treat you differently than someone like that.

It's almost in a way,

It's like a more egalitarian approach in the sense that everything that's coming up for anybody is just a manifestation of their unconscious expressing itself in some way.

Another way to look at it is from the mythological perspective of that.

What is the meaning behind it?

What is the meaning in the psychopathology,

For example?

I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Actually,

It's making me think of an article I read by James Hillman,

Who maybe you've been reading at school,

Where he was.

.

.

And it was really long and honestly,

I didn't,

I kind of skimmed through it,

But what I got from it was he was saying how almost all our culture's assumptions about the mind comes from Freud.

Some of the things you're talking about of the clinical take,

Even though modern psychologists,

I agree or disagree with Freud,

We've all been incepted by his style of thinking,

Which Hillman argued was incepted by monotheism because even though Freud wasn't religious,

He grew up in a monotheistic culture.

This theory of consciousness is kind of like the Holy Trinity,

Even though he didn't mean to.

Whereas one of Jung's contributions is that he went backwards in culture and tapped into the pagan view of reality,

Where we have something like archetypes,

Where there isn't just like a single God,

The Father and Son.

There's just like a collection of forces.

What you're describing,

It sounds.

.

.

I mean,

It's hitting a few layers of how we all view the mind or we all view mental health,

Because even like these new mental health apps that pop up kind of take the approach that I guess Pacifica criticizes.

Here's a problem,

You got to fix it,

Versus like there might actually be something else.

Like BPD might not have to have that label.

It might be a totally different thing that could be redirected or even useful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot of.

.

.

I mean,

And one of the things,

The thing about being in Pacifica is that it's definitely a bubble and everybody knows,

Everybody at Pacifica knows that it's kind of a fringe.

The program and just the whole kind of aura at Pacifica,

The mentality is a very fringe perspective when compared to mainstream Western mental health culture,

So to speak.

And so it's interesting to have these conversations with people who are really like-minded and really also have been doing this and studying this stuff for their whole career.

And I think that's one of the biggest things that I've gotten from this program,

Just being in an environment where I'm surrounded by like-minded people who,

I mean,

Like my professors who obviously have training,

But they also have experience of being a therapist for 20 years,

Applying this kind of stuff in their practice.

And I think about our conversations a lot because what I'm really starting to appreciate about therapy is through this experience at Pacifica is that how it's really like in its,

I think in its highest form is like the perfect blend of art and science.

It's very much a scientific,

It can be very rooted in science and scientific approach to things.

But when you start talking about the Hillman stuff and the creative element that Jung taps into like this really spiritual deep part of what it means to be human and what it means to help people figure out what the meaning of their life is,

It's a very artistic,

That's a very artistic thing.

And it's really dependent on even things like what kind of people that someone wants to focus on helping.

Like you and I are really interested in working with men and men's issues and in the field of mental health,

There's an infinite number of sub-genres,

If you will,

Or just groups of populations of people who struggle with different things.

This is a huge tangent from what we were talking about Hillman.

I forget how I got on that.

That's fine.

All tangents are the new path.

But yeah,

Hillman,

You mentioned Freud and Hillman.

Yeah,

It's very interesting because Freud,

This is something that I heard Jordan Peterson say when he was talking about Freud once,

And it's kind of stuck with me ever since.

It's like everything that Freud,

Like Freud really contributed so much to this field of psychoanalysis and just the idea of taking the unconscious seriously,

That it's kind of absorbed itself.

But it's so taken for granted now that a lot of what people focus on are like,

Oh,

He was sexist or he had all these backwards views about sexuality,

Which yeah,

Those are all true.

But Freud really,

He really was the first one to put this field on a map.

And the interesting thing about Hillman is that one of the things that I'm learning about the field of Jungian studies is that even in post-Jungian thought,

There's a lot of diversity of viewpoints.

And Hillman is kind of a rebellious figure and he's kind of a polarizing figure in terms of scholars who studied Jung and who furthered his work and his perspectives.

Because he's so polytheistic and he's so,

The word deconstructionist has been used to describe him.

Because he really,

One of the things that he emphasizes,

Which kind of goes against,

I guess is kind of a foil to Jung's emphasis on wholeness and unity and integration into oneness.

Hillman was basically like,

Fuck that,

Focus on the many within the individual and honoring the individual parts that constitute the many.

And he had an interesting way of doing all that,

But now I feel like I'm right on it.

No,

No,

No.

It's like,

Actually,

Because like the name James Hillman is just a name I've read on papers.

Like I actually know nothing about the person.

And I think you're touching on something that's important.

It's like when it comes to thinkers whose ideas have kind of gone on their own to affect people in ways that maybe they're not even aware of,

Like,

Oh,

I'm thinking because Freud said this in 1920 or whatever.

It's important to know about the person who's thinking.

Like Freud,

We know maybe he was obsessed with sex because he was sexually frustrated,

Which is why all his theories went back to sex.

Jung,

His theories might have come from something else.

Like I've been studying general semantics lately,

Which is kind of like how words create thoughts or how abstractions create our assumptions about reality.

And Korzybski,

Who's the father of that field,

Basically goes back to like all of the errors of thinking in politics comes from Aristotle,

Who was a brilliant guy who contributed so much to the thought.

But,

You know,

Back in his time,

He just didn't know how,

I mean,

Nobody knew how the world really worked.

So his ideas,

Which have turned out to somewhat be false,

Some things turned out to be false,

The way of thinking still affects how we all think,

Especially in the soft sciences,

Because there's no experiments to prove them wrong.

And yeah,

It was just,

Yeah,

All of this,

I think is important and interesting.

Just recognizing that all thoughts come from a person who has a personality and flaws.

Right.

Yeah.

I think that's something that I've become more accustomed to taking into consideration through this process that has been Pacifica.

And I think that's a lot to,

I think that has a lot to do with,

I mean,

If I have to admit,

I have to say that I think that's a part of maybe one of the positive elements of,

Dare I say,

I don't want to say it's a positive element of wokeness because I don't want to admit that there's anything positive about wokeness,

But I think this idea of really examining the context out of which something emerges,

I mean,

We're talking about people,

So understanding their lives and their influences and the places,

The environments and cultures that they came from and how that's influenced what they expressed and what they communicated is a very important part of really understanding something in its fullest.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Actually on wokeness,

Because I think it's interesting,

It's like the motives of many of the woke imperatives are really good,

Right?

Well-being of people,

Rights,

Things like that.

And it is important to question previous norms.

One of the ironic problems with wokeness,

And I would say is also a problem with like third and second wave feminism,

Fourth wave feminism,

Which is kind of part of wokeness,

Is that as they attack the previous way of thinking,

They end up adopting the same style of thinking,

Right?

Like with wokeness,

The redefining of terms.

It's like,

Okay,

Maybe the old terms had the incorrect connotations or like unnatural connotations,

But then they create new terms,

Which are just as,

Or maybe even more incorrect because they're just trying to replace,

You know,

It's like that's one of the issues with that kind of thinking.

But I feel like with wokeness,

And I mean,

We can go down this conversation pathway if you'd like,

But we can also go down other ones.

I think with wokeness,

It's not even as much of a,

It's a redefinition of words,

But it's like a,

Like whatever the,

It's like de-specifying words.

Like it's broadening definitions of words to be less nuanced and less discerning.

And it's almost like a more abstract,

More abstract.

And it's like,

It's blurring.

It's like they're blurring reality in an attempt to be able to say,

This is the way reality actually is,

And this is what we need to do to fix it.

And they're detaching,

A lot of the redefinitions are detaching ideas from physical things,

Right?

Like,

You know,

Many traditional ideas can,

Are not like,

They're not all right.

Many of them have their own errors,

But at least most of them started with some perception,

Maybe a primitive perception of nature.

Whereas like this postmodernist woke kind of thinking is like detaching completely from reality,

Like physical reality,

Let's make it whatever he wants.

And that's not,

You know,

That's just not real anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I agree.

It's interesting.

I mean,

This,

This kind of stuff comes up a lot in our,

Well,

I wouldn't say that it does quite as much as it did in the first year because our courses are just more specific now.

But it's interesting to think about these things from like an archetypal perspective or from a Jungian perspective.

And I don't know if,

Have you had any,

Have you read anything or have you had any conversations with other people about what's happening in our culture from a depth perspective?

Not from like a Jungian perspective,

If that's what you mean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

It was,

I think I mean,

It's very interesting to look at from like a collective unconscious point of view,

Right?

Like if,

If we are going to go with the view,

Let's just say for the sake of argument that Jung was right and that human beings are connected in these ways that reach down into our lower levels of our unconscious that form the collective unconscious,

Which are the basically the biological patterns and instincts that make humans,

Humans,

And even deeper animals,

Animals,

And life,

Life.

What does,

What,

How does that explain what's happening now in our culture from a,

Just in terms of the,

The,

The tension and the,

And the,

The polarity that we're experiencing as a culture right now.

And I've had a few conversations with a few colleagues and classmates.

And one of the things that,

That I've thought about is the idea of the devouring mother archetype.

Well,

It's not,

That's an instantiation of the mother archetype,

But the overprotecting over compassionate mother who destroys her children because she's afraid to let them go out and be in the world and,

And experience hurt and be,

And,

And be harmed by the world.

And,

And I see that in,

I see a lot of that in,

In wokeness because so much of it is under this guise of compassion and equality.

And you know,

This is all for the oppressed.

This is all for people who have been marginalized and oppressed and we care about them.

And like you said earlier,

Like it's all under the guise of something good.

Like we want,

We want people to have equal opportunities and we want people to have as level of playing field as possible.

But there is a point where compassion becomes harmful.

And I think we're starting to see that where this issue of big tech censorship is starting to come up.

And I mean,

It's been present.

Things like that,

Where it's,

Where it's like,

How do we balance managing information around certain issues so that people can be protected from wrong information,

But can we do that without censoring people from engaging in an honest process of discovering the truth through dialogue?

Right.

It's like,

Yeah,

I mean,

Even what you just said,

Protecting people from wrong information,

It is a very parent,

Small child,

Even just like the idea of it,

Right?

Like an adult wouldn't do that to another adult.

In like an immediate social situation.

Right.

It is,

It is literal infantilization.

And I think there's a lot in what you just said,

Like this,

This coddling or this,

This kind of like overprotective mothering that the culture does,

And it seems to be stronger and certain.

It's very strong in Australia and Canada as per,

Yeah,

We could see what the government's doing there.

It seems to be most damaging to men.

I mean,

We've,

I think you and I have talked about this before,

But something I've been thinking about more recently is like,

Men,

Our psyche needs struggle.

Like,

Otherwise it feels useless,

Right?

Like our genes would not pass on if we didn't fight something.

And we know that testosterone makes effort feel good,

Right?

That's something that's been proven clinically.

So this,

The more that the,

These,

You know,

Greater systems over parent adult males,

Of course,

The more that males feel shitty because they're basically put in a cage where they can't do the one thing they can do or that they're meant to do for their own mental health.

I completely agree.

And I think something that I've been thinking about personally for me is,

Is like,

How do I as an individual who's,

Who's on this path of,

You know,

I want to become a therapist and I want to work with men.

It's like,

How do I,

How do I fit into all of this?

You know,

As a man who is trying to find himself and be the best version of himself that he can be,

What does that look like for me?

And,

And in what you were just saying,

Because I think about that a lot and like our culture,

As hard as it is on men,

Like what we're experiencing as a culture,

I think it's all the more reason to that.

For me,

It makes it feel more urgent that men figure themselves out and,

And get,

And kind of go out and do the things that they want to do and be a positive contribution to our greater society.

And this is,

This is how I'm viewing it for myself.

I'm not saying this is what people are meant to do,

But it's like,

I would,

I would add to that,

Like if we're taking this idea that woke culture,

This is like the modern culture over-parents the adults,

The way that you would over-parent maybe a four-year-old,

Like the young man or the young person kind of has to rebel,

Has to throw a tantrum or has to have basically the teenage rebellion,

Which I think in itself is also from over,

Over-parenting,

Over-oppression,

Right?

Like our biology wants to,

Certainly when our testosterone is being flooded into our system when we're like 13,

14,

We want to go do and use,

Use that function and anything stopping us is obviously going to make us feel angsty and upset.

There is like a bit of rebellion in there,

Which is why I think movements like Red Pill and some of these kind of more aggressive,

Like MGTOW,

All of this stuff,

You know,

It's in a way it's kind of like the teenager or the young boy like shaking his fist at mom,

Like mom's not going to tell me what to do,

Which maybe is a necessary stage.

It's also,

You know,

I don't think the final stage for men.

That's not,

Not also a happy place to end up usually.

So anyways,

Yeah.

Definitely.

That's definitely not a,

I mean,

It's definitely not the final,

Hopefully it's not the final place we end up.

But yeah,

I mean,

I think about it,

It's like,

You know,

If our culture is the overprotective mom right now,

We've got it,

Like the fathers,

The good father has to come in at some point and be like,

Hold up.

And smack her up.

Yeah.

Not,

I mean,

I know you mean that as a figure of speech,

But it's kind of,

It's like,

It's kind of true.

Like the positive masculine has to come in and what would it,

What would,

What would the positive masculine say in our culture?

I think something like it's okay to be hurt and it's okay to suffer because you're stronger than how you feel right now and it's going to be okay.

Something along those lines,

As opposed to,

As opposed to,

You know,

The overbearing mom saying you're a victim and you always will be.

And so I need to protect you for your whole life.

And that's,

That's the most important thing.

Have you seen any videos by,

I think his name is Jason Wilson.

He's got,

He's like a black guy,

Martial arts teacher.

He had some viral videos.

He was on Rogan too,

I think like six months ago.

He has some viral videos where he's like,

You know,

He's in a martial arts class teaching like a seven year old boy to break a board and the kid's crying and crying and he wants to quit and,

You know,

Yeah.

And like he,

He validates his feelings.

He lets them know he could feel what he,

He says,

He says,

Cry like a man,

Which is like such a perfect synergy of that.

And kind of what you're saying,

Like use that.

You are,

You can feel your feelings,

But don't quit on the board.

You're stronger than the board,

Which is such a great,

Yeah,

Such a great message.

And I think,

You know,

Certainly millennial and younger men seem to be missing that.

Totally,

Totally.

Yeah.

So actually I want to,

This is something I wanted to ask you anyway while we're on this subject because,

You know,

I'm expecting a child.

I'm actually expecting a daughter.

So,

And yes.

Congratulations,

By the way.

Thank you.

Thanks.

That's awesome.

I've been thinking about,

Cause obviously I've thought about the raising of a boy just cause I was a boy and we,

I think we talk about men's psychology a lot,

But I was thinking about like a woman,

A young woman,

And yesterday I was imagining like,

What would it be like if there was a five-year-old girl observing me?

Like,

How would that affect her as an adult?

Right.

And how I interact with her mom,

You know,

How I speak to her,

How I flirt with her mom,

How I do things around the house.

Like what is that,

How is that imprinting this woman that eventually will probably date men and treat them in a certain way based on how me as her first male imprint affects her.

Like I was thinking,

You know,

Cause I've been reading various things.

I've been actually,

Well,

This is another tangent,

But I'm curious if you've been studying things in school or what your thoughts are on basically imprinting a child in terms of them having a happy life.

That's a huge question.

And I would,

I would guess that you've probably read more recently about all of that than I have.

I mean,

I guess what I might,

I might share from what I've learned thus far,

There's a lot of,

I mean,

There's a lot about attachment theory that we've talked about in our coursework.

I don't know if you've,

If you've read any of that.

That seems to be,

That's,

That's kind of like where all arrows point to when it comes to,

You know,

Personality disorders and just general,

Just anxiety and insecurity in teenage and adulthood.

Someone having poor attachment patterns or non-ideal attachment as a young child.

It's like everything in one way or another points to that as being a very strong factor.

So,

Yeah.

Well,

Maybe we could go into your opinions because,

So I have a friend who's back on the dating scene.

He's a guy about our age and he was noticing,

We've been talking about how he has certain assumptions that were probably programmed into him at a really young age where he just like just misses positive signals from women or he's like,

They basically,

Things are not ideal and it's not even what he knows or his social skills.

It's like his worldview is kind of not conducive to like dating,

Certain dating things.

He makes things harder on himself just from what he can see.

And we may be related this back to,

To,

To youth.

Whereas we have another friend who like has all the best assumptions.

Like he just assumes that everything's going to go well and things typically go well with him in his dating life.

And there's other things like with,

We have imprinting for money,

We have imprinting for this and that.

And,

And,

You know,

I've been thinking about like,

How do you,

I mean,

It's just an interesting thought to like maybe actively or make an effort to imprint a person,

A person who hasn't been fucked up yet or hasn't gotten bad imprints yet to like actually give them the right imprints hopefully.

Well,

There's an idea there.

There's an idea called like good enough parenting,

Which is because there's something that's happened in our cohort.

Like there's,

There's a few moms and there's several people who have children,

Grown children,

But there's people who have babies who were just born and young kids that they're raising right now.

And we're going through a lot of material,

The material that we've gone through about child development and parenting and family systems.

And like,

They all become so anxious because they're like,

Oh my God,

Did I fuck up my kids?

Like I'm learning about all this stuff.

I didn't do that.

Like,

And they go into panic mode and it's totally understandable because it's very,

I mean,

There's so much detail and there's so much content that one can read about how to be the best parent,

But there's this constant reminder of there's this,

The idea of good enough parenting where you,

You can make mistakes and you cannot be a perfect parent.

You can be an imperfect role model.

I think,

And it's just,

It's,

It's,

I mean,

It carries over it's,

It's in every relationship,

Right?

Like when we make a mistake,

Like own,

It's how we respond to,

To the mistake.

It's how we respond to the rupture in the relationship,

So to speak and how we go about repairing it.

That makes all the difference.

Yeah.

And so having that open communication.

Yeah.

I have a childhood friend who actually just had a kid as well.

My friend,

Jamie,

When we were kids,

We had the same friend group and the parents of our friends were like a huge range of ages,

Right?

Like some had young parents,

Some had old parents and she observed that the kids with the older parents seem to be a little bit more unstable and like weird.

And her theory was when you have young parents,

The young parents are just like,

Are barely getting through the day.

Like they just want you to be alive and then they,

They,

They leave you alone,

Which allows you to develop more naturally.

Whereas the older parents,

Their careers established,

They have money,

They have free time and they,

They basically over parent because they have nothing else to do.

And those kids always end up weird.

She's like,

Yeah,

That you just have to have kids young.

So otherwise you're going to think too much and fuck them up.

Yeah.

I mean,

That's,

I,

I can't,

I don't know that I can like offer any sort of validity or not to that,

But I think,

You know,

I'm just trying to think of examples in my own life for people that I know,

You know,

Out of all my college friends,

There's one,

One of my roommates has him and his wife had two kids shortly after we all graduated.

And none of our other,

None of us,

None of the,

None of the rest of us have kids.

And their kids are,

I want to say six and eight right now.

And I was just,

I just spent time with them on Christmas Eve and they were so,

It was like a,

It,

It proved what you just were talking about.

It was a good example of like young parents really just trying to make sure that they didn't get mortally wounded throughout the day and were able to survive.

And these kids were great.

Like they were so like,

They seemed so positive and they were just,

They were,

They were like old enough to like play on their own and like not have people watch them,

But their parents were also not the parents who were going to like hover over them everywhere.

Like we were inside talking and catching up.

The kids were outside playing with one of those like rocket things that you stomp on and it flies up in the air.

Like they were doing that for two hours and like,

We didn't see or hear from them for two hours and it was,

It was fine,

You know?

Yeah,

Yeah,

The one,

Like per what you said about attachment theory,

The one parenting belief I have,

Cause I,

I've,

I mean,

I've obviously coached a lot of people on their relationships,

People who have kids,

We end up talking about their kids and I don't,

I don't really have anything that I've experienced with children obviously,

Or as a parent,

But the one thing I'm sure of is that the best thing you could do as a parent is be secure.

Like I mean,

That trumps every technique,

You know,

Cause they'll respond properly and a lot of,

A lot of imprinting comes from observation,

Not like,

Not the technique the parent was doing.

Right,

Exactly.

That's exactly right.

And it's modeling,

It's,

It's not even conscious observation necessarily.

And that's why being secure is so important because it's,

It's,

It's a lot of the communication and imprinting happens on the unconscious level.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

And I,

And I think this is especially true with young,

With boys.

I mean,

This maybe is also true with girls,

But certainly with boys,

Like I mentioned this in one of my podcast episodes recently,

Like this guy,

He was,

He had to adopt his sister-in-law's kids cause she was sick.

And like he was having a really hard time with these teenage boys and he was like,

Oh,

What do I do?

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

I didn't,

I didn't say this to him,

But it was just like,

I knew they didn't listen to him.

It wasn't what he was doing.

And I knew that he was a weak man that there's no way a teenage boy would respect him no matter how nice or how firm he spoke.

Like he was just a weak guy who like a teenage boy just won't respect.

Whereas if he was just a bad-ass,

Whether he,

Whether he was nice or not,

Like they would respect him and they would listen to him.

And this is kind of,

Yeah,

This is just,

Yeah.

Yeah,

That goes.

Yeah.

It's really interesting to think about how,

Like,

Even the idea of secure attachment,

I mean,

It's in complete alignment with this idea of like,

And I don't,

I'm sure we've talked about this at some point,

But like masculinity being,

You know,

Like the pole of the masculine being like the grounded awareness in which the feminine expresses herself as pure love.

And that's the,

The masculine is the field in which that occurs.

And I mean,

Secure attachment is really just like,

Is the ability to be like grounded in awareness regardless of the situation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And actually,

You know,

Having a pregnant wife now,

A lot of those,

Especially the esoteric side of like what like the masculine should be in response to the,

Like,

You know,

David Deida or Tantra perspectives,

Which,

You know,

Sometimes seem groundless,

They seem so absolutely undeniably true with a pregnant wife because like what you just said is because of pregnancy,

Right?

Like the point of her expressing love is not for like necessarily for a cosmic Shakti is like when a woman's pregnant,

Which is what,

What I mean,

It's the greatest thing a human can do for humanity.

She has to be protected by something strong,

Emotionally strong,

Physically strong.

Like she can't defend herself and that's the function of masculinity.

So anyway,

Yeah,

It's like,

You know,

It's,

It's helping me realize that these abstractions from spirituality are really grounded in nature and like they're absolutely necessary.

Even if you don't decide to have kids,

This is where our sexual instincts come from.

So what has it been like for you this whole journey?

Because I think the last time we talked,

I don't even know if you were dating,

Well,

I don't even know your wife's name.

We haven't talked in that.

Nalaya.

Yeah.

I mean,

I met her,

Well,

I met her many years before,

But we've connected during COVID.

And yeah,

It's been interesting on a relationship side,

Like really committing from the beginning.

I mean,

Of course,

Like she's,

I've screened her better than any woman I've dated for like traits that I would actually want to get along with,

But also there's something about really committing upfront that has,

I think,

Smoothed out what could have been,

Or in the past in past relationships might've caused rockiness.

Just like really giving a woman that security has made.

Yeah.

I mean,

We have a positive feedback loop between us.

Like she has no reason to,

Let's say,

Throw tests at me that often because I've really delivered upfront.

And I think in the other direction,

She's done the same,

But then like the impending fatherhood thing,

It really has,

These last six months,

Honestly,

Have been a journey of like letting go of certain things,

Honestly,

Letting go of certain dreams,

Which has been kind of a grieving process.

Not even that I wanted those things anymore.

That was the irony.

Like some of the things that were my goals at 23,

I don't even want anymore,

But the fact that I kind of have to give them up,

There's something about like that.

Yeah,

No,

I don't know.

There's a lot of things with it,

But it's been interesting.

What are you,

Okay,

So I have a couple of questions about that.

What can you share about that commitment?

Like that decision to put that commitment upfront?

Because that's a huge thing for the masculine to do.

And I think that's something that I've certainly struggled with.

And I think that's something that a lot of men struggle with,

This idea of commitment and voluntarily,

I don't want to say,

I mean,

I'll just say chaining ourselves to someone,

But voluntarily like,

Yeah.

I'll say the cynical side first,

Because that's been part of like the thing for me.

In the same way that a woman makes a sacrifice when she becomes pregnant,

Like sacrificing her body in a sense and freedoms,

A man in commitment is doing something too.

Our genes,

There's certainly our impulse is to keep spreading your seed.

That is one way to reward your genes.

Another way is to make sure your child grows up well,

Quality over quantity,

I guess.

And I will say that I've been in my mind ready for commitment the last couple of years,

Or you know,

Just dating around.

I have had this feeling of like,

Okay,

This has been fun,

But I'm kind of putting energy into something that is not a long-term asset in a sense,

Which sometimes gave me this kind of empty feeling or like that I'm kind of wasting my resources,

My attention.

You mean in relationships,

The relationships you've been in recently?

Like in casual relationships,

Which are fun,

Which is the thing that I've always wanted to do as a younger man.

The last couple of years has felt like it's still fun,

But like,

I kind of want an asset that I can hold on to rather than rentals,

If you will.

The flip side,

And I guess this may be a warning too,

Because I definitely haven't done it perfectly.

Since I kind of made the decision that I wanted some level of consistency with a person,

Building something with a person prior to this relationship,

I did end up applying commitment where I shouldn't have.

It's just discerning.

Actually,

One of the people I was dating when I met you,

I don't want to go into it,

But I basically had a hammer and I hit a nail that I shouldn't have hit.

It was just like,

Man,

Fuck.

I was just kind of like on this ideal of like,

Oh,

I want to commit.

I want to start,

Stop messing around.

I just applied it in a wrong way.

I think actually Joe Rogan spoke about this,

I think with Ben Shapiro on his podcast of like,

It's kind of a dangerous thing to decide you want to get married and then find someone to pick the role because you'll probably end up with someone,

You'll end up committing to someone you shouldn't have.

Anyways,

I don't know if I'm answering your question.

I'm just saying random things.

No,

No,

It makes total sense.

I mean,

Basically what I'm hearing is like,

It was something that you noticed yourself wanting over the past few years.

And it's just a matter of implementing it effectively.

Because I think that there is like,

You know,

As far as stages of male development,

There's a,

I think it's actually important for a man's psyche to have a period of time where he has adventures with women,

Right?

Like it's,

It's,

It's a very normal,

Natural thing.

It's why men watch porn and play video games.

It's like the same thing,

You know?

And I actually,

I see this in guys who are settling down who haven't had that experience and it kind of eats at them.

It's like,

Ah,

I never really played the field.

Like I think it's important for most guys,

But I think also,

Well,

I'll say this actually,

A couple of things that I've in retrospect,

Recognize as like good ways to discern someone that you should actually commit to besides the obvious of someone with your values and you get along with and all that good stuff is when you put in,

When you invest your resources,

Your energy,

Your time,

Maybe your money,

You get positive feedback.

It's a positive return on investment,

Which I think is something I should have recognized in some previous attempts at commitment,

Right?

I would put in my energy and I would get less back,

Which is like,

Ultimately we're both draining each other,

Right?

Whether not even to put the other person at fault,

Maybe we're misaligned.

As opposed to like,

You put an energy and you get two X back and you send it back.

And then it's just like,

You're,

You're constantly,

You're compounding interest is just great.

Obviously there's still no relationship is perfect,

But like that to me is the ideal or that to me is at least one test for someone worthy of your resources,

Because you are,

Unless you're a super alpha male or with,

Unless you're a billionaire or a billionaire either in money or in energy or whatever,

Or awesomeness,

You know,

You only,

You have limited funds with which you can commit to someone.

So were you,

So when you were in this earlier stage of like wanting commitment and like applying it,

Maybe heavy handedly in like earlier relationships,

Did you have an idea of like what you were expecting as you were doing it?

Or was it more of a,

Like,

I want to commit,

So I'm just going to do it.

And it was a gradual process,

Like,

Wait,

I'm not getting back what I feel I should be.

I broke down what I think is my,

My,

My pathology or my remnants of nice guy stuff with Dr.

Michael Pariser,

Who was on my podcast,

I think last year.

He kind of analyzed me while I was interviewing him.

But what I kind of concluded was I was ready for this and I maybe,

What's the word,

Naively advertise this,

Which obviously is a thing that women want of like a man's commitments.

Right.

And I think,

Yeah,

I mean,

I'm an,

Especially someone my age who typically maybe isn't committing like,

Oh,

And I even look back to those,

That period.

I seem to have been getting a lot of advertisements of like,

Oh,

Commit to me,

Commit to me.

And I basically fell for,

I hate to say this because it's so uncool to maybe talk shit about your ex,

But is this my perception?

If I'm honest,

Like I fell for someone who was advertising what I thought I wanted to get what she wanted.

And I know that sounds really bitter,

But that,

That is kind of how it seems looking back.

Like it really wasn't what I was hoping for.

And it seems like a reflection of just what I was saying I wanted.

Anyway,

It was confusing.

I don't know.

I wasn't good at screening basically.

Okay.

Okay.

And I was kind of,

I know I say I,

I,

And this is maybe my warning to any guy who can relate to this.

I was vulnerable to someone saying,

Hey,

I'm the person you're looking for.

Because I had pre-decided in my head,

I'm ready for something more serious than just hooking up.

That's my,

That's my warning.

If you take nothing else from my rambling,

That's what I want people to hear.

Yeah.

Well,

That's,

That's,

It's interesting because like,

As I've been,

I don't have a whole lot of time for,

For dating in my life right now.

But I am trying to,

I'm trying to do what I can to stay active in that space.

I'm,

I'm,

I'm single right now.

I'm kind of seeing someone,

We haven't known each other that long,

So it's not that serious yet.

But it's something that I think about a lot because I too have this feeling of like,

I'm ready for something emotionally intimate and serious and committed.

And it's interesting that we're having this conversation because it's something that I'm kind of like,

I'm what I'm trying to walk this fine line right now as we speak of like,

And it honestly,

It feels really good.

And I can feel how like,

For the type of woman that I want,

Like they're looking for someone who's willing to commit,

Like commitment to at least the women that I'm attracted to or I want is a really good thing for them.

And so I'm,

I find myself having conversations with women who are like,

You know,

I,

I talk about,

You know,

Generally what I'm looking for in a relationship and,

And their eyes light up and like,

We have emotional,

We have pretty intimate conversations.

And in my head,

I'm like,

Fuck,

That was that easy.

Like this is,

This is really not that hard because I know I have a better sense of who I am now than I ever did in my life.

And I feel good about myself and that makes everything so much easier,

But I have almost,

And I've kind of been aware of what you're talking about,

This idea of like committing to the wrong person or being a poor screener.

Because especially if you're advertising,

Hey,

I'm ready for,

You know,

It's like,

It's ultimately what a woman's instincts wants is someone to take care of her baby.

Who you know,

Whether or not she has the baby with you,

If you want to really get cynical and like look at nature as metal.

And,

You know,

If you are advertising that it's kind of like the yeah,

I mean,

Yeah,

You're making yourself a little bit vulnerable to,

I don't want to say it like,

A little deception basically.

Right.

It's just,

It's something,

You know,

That I was a little naive about up until very recently.

Yeah.

And was it something where you felt that she was changing her behavior or saying or doing things in order to like,

Keep you,

Keep your commitment,

So to speak.

In that case,

Yeah.

Like I can even go back and again,

I know I sound maybe just bitter about an ex and there's truth to that too,

But it's like,

I kind of shared with her the things I was looking for.

And then over the short term future after that,

It was kind of like,

Just like showing to me,

Because I remember having all of these thoughts,

Even speaking with one of my buddies about it's like,

Something doesn't totally feel right,

But everything is exactly what I said I wanted.

So maybe I'm maybe,

And I actually thought,

You know,

Trying to self-analyze myself,

Am I just like afraid of,

Is this self-sabotage?

Like,

Here's the thing I said I wanted and I don't want it.

Like,

Ah,

Maybe I just have to push through this resistance and which is in itself a self-help trap like that.

It's just,

It's hard.

It's with those types of thoughts,

Which relates back to the woke thing of like really wanting to be self-critical and maybe just going too far.

It's like,

Sometimes it's hard to discern,

Especially when you fall back on maxims,

Like you should protect the weak or you should be self-critical or recognize.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So how do you,

Like,

Do you have any advice for,

Like,

How did you get out of that predicament?

That like that ping pong,

Because I know exactly what you're talking about.

Like,

Yeah,

Well,

Like,

Am I self-sabotaging or like,

Am I making,

Is there validity to the feeling of uncertainty that I have about this relationship that I'm in,

Even though it's everything that I thought I wanted or am I self-sabotaging?

Because I think that's like a critical juncture that I've experienced multiple times in my life of like,

Who the fuck am I?

Like,

What do I really want?

Like I have everything that I thought I wanted,

But I still don't feel,

It doesn't feel quite right.

Like,

How did you.

.

.

Yeah,

I don't think I have a definitive answer.

But I mean,

In hindsight,

I could say that,

Well,

I'll just say what my experience was in that situation,

It just got to the point where it felt so bad that even though my mind was convinced of something else,

I was just like,

I can't,

I can't fucking do this,

You know?

But I think also just in the right relationship,

It's normal to have thoughts of like,

You know,

It's,

You know,

The mind is constantly thinking things.

So in that sense,

I don't know that I have a clear answer.

I do think though,

That if something doesn't ever feel like a hell yes,

It's one thing to waver,

It's one thing to like,

Have a disagreement or a fight and be not so eager about the relationship in that moment.

But if you don't have at least some,

Like a general feeling of like,

Hell yeah,

This is like,

This is great.

That's probably not going to come,

Right?

Like if you've been dating someone for a while and you're like,

Yeah,

She's okay,

You're probably not going to suddenly be madly in love with her.

Or you're not suddenly,

Or like,

You're like,

Oh,

This thing about our values,

Like,

It always gets on my nerves.

It's not going to get better.

It's just not,

You know?

So like,

Do yourself both a favor and maybe end it before things get really chaotic.

Yeah,

I think the point about like,

Looking backwards,

Like it just,

It,

With time that negative feeling accumulates and you,

You have to end it at that point.

And actually something I think is very valuable about red pill philosophy,

Obviously I have my criticisms,

But something very valuable about that is really recognizing the dark side of human nature.

I mean,

In that world,

They point out the dark feminine,

If you will.

But also,

I mean,

I mean,

I guess that's what matters to a man if he dates women.

But just recognizing that human nature involves deception.

It involves,

You know,

Male and female incentives don't always align.

Sometimes they do,

Sometimes they don't.

And if you can really have a proper model of how people and women behave,

You don't have to be surprised.

You don't have to be upset,

Don't have to be resentful.

You don't have to be,

You can limit your hurts,

I guess.

Whereas I think all of my pains and all the,

All the resentful red pill guys' pains and all of this stuff comes from like improper modeling.

We were conditioned by feminism or Disney to believe a certain,

If we do A,

We get B,

We get Z and we're like,

Fuck.

So do you,

I mean,

I don't know how,

I don't know how active you've like,

Are you still coaching?

Are you still doing everything that you've been doing since we last spoke?

Like coaching the online stuff?

I haven't been on social media.

I've been like really disconnected from a lot of it.

Well,

I am doing that.

I've also,

I mean,

I've,

I have,

I've developed a loathing for social media,

Which is why I don't do YouTube.

That's why we're not recording the video.

Like I don't do YouTube.

I got rid of my Instagram.

I don't check into my Facebook group much anymore,

Pretty rarely,

Although it's like a useful thing,

I guess.

But yeah,

I basically simplified and I'm doing the same stuff,

Coaching.

I still have my online courses,

But I'm trying to not feed the tech woke machine in my small,

Small,

Maybe only symbolic way.

I salute that.

Have you noticed anything like in terms of the people that you're working with or just trends as far as like big zoom out,

Like men's personal development,

Like,

Have there been any like any,

Any people or like influencers that have like become more popular,

Like over the past year or like any kind of new ideas like is,

Is red pill stuff evolving in any meaningful way?

I'm not really tapped into that so much.

The reason why I read pills been on my mind is that I have a friend,

I don't know if I mentioned that a few minutes ago,

But I have a friend who's who I think red pill is actually very useful for.

So I turned him on to it and I decided to like,

Look into what I sent him to just to see what it was like.

I don't really know.

The last time I was,

I mean,

I listened to Joe Rogan and that's kind of my,

My only media.

In people that I speak to,

Which is obviously not representative of the population at all.

It does seem,

I think this is,

It is something I heard from a coach when I started coaching that you end up coaching people in a similar life stage to you,

Which kind of just makes sense.

And I have noticed that maybe partially because all of my clients find me through this podcast now,

It's kind of been a screening process where I'm no longer coaching guys who just want to pick up girls or anything,

Which I never really liked anyway.

And talking to more people like you and me who are interested in obviously these ideas,

Otherwise they wouldn't reach out to me.

That's been cool.

So I don't really know.

I don't know.

I don't know what 23 year olds are into other than the ones who happen to listen to this podcast.

I don't really know what's popular in men's work right now.

Jordan Peterson's age seems to has just passed,

It seems,

But I don't really know.

Jordan Peterson,

He's making a little bit of a comeback.

I think he,

Yeah,

I've actually,

I mean,

He had some health issues for a while,

But he's seems to be back even better than before he was before he had his health issues.

I mean,

He's his podcast,

He's having some really interesting conversations with unconventional people that aren't necessarily making the podcast circuit,

So to speak.

He's got some of those guys,

But he's got a lot of interesting things that he's exploring and yeah,

I mean,

It's,

It's good to see.

It's good to see him back,

Honestly.

I mean,

I've,

I've always been a huge admirer of him and it's,

It's good to see him back.

I don't think he's quite as,

I think he's,

How do you say,

I mean,

He's coming out with his new book.

I think most of the attention on him,

If there is any,

It's not like the negative mud throwing that it was a few years ago.

It's not all about like the culture wars necessarily as much.

I don't know.

Anyway,

It's,

I'm,

I'm seeing him in LA in April.

I have a meet and greet.

I'm going to actually get to talk.

I'm really nice.

I've got to like,

I told myself I have to like think of something.

I have to plan what I'm going to say so I don't get up there like a bumbling fool and like make a moron of myself,

But yeah,

That's cool.

Yeah,

I,

I,

I spoke briefly to a therapist,

I think like a year ago who mostly works with men and he was,

He had this theory that,

Or something he noticed in his practice was that when guys first start working with him,

They're obsessed with Jordan Peterson.

And then after like a couple of months of therapy,

They kind of get bored with Jordan Peterson and then become obsessed with Joe Rogan and his theory,

Or at least my interpretation of his theory is that Jordan Peterson really speaks to the gaps in most of our boyhoods.

Like,

You know,

Like kind of like his commanding tone.

He's like the good father who's stern,

But eventually you grow out of that and you're like,

Okay,

I don't need someone to tell me to tell the truth and clean my room anymore.

I kind of just want to hang out with like a,

A cool older brother who's doing cool shit.

Right.

Jordan Peterson is really,

I can,

He's kind of an old figure whether or not,

Regardless of his age,

Like he doesn't,

You don't look at him as someone doing cool shit.

He just tells him good things.

Right.

Clean your room,

Get your shit together.

Yeah.

I mean,

It's great advice.

And like,

I've been really moved by some of his talks about like male pain and stuff.

I think that's where he really like hooks a lot of people,

But I don't know.

Do I want to hang out with him?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I haven't been compelled either way.

Right.

Right.

That makes a lot of sense because I can see someone like getting their life together in some,

You know,

Meaningful way to themselves and then being like,

Okay,

Like let's party a little bit.

Like let's have fun.

And that's where I can see,

You know,

Someone like Joe Rogan and like introducing them to psychedelics or like any of that.

Yeah.

Any of that stuff.

Because Joe Rogan,

He's such an interesting figure for men,

Even though he doesn't like attach himself or give direct advice so much because of the fact he doesn't give direct advice.

He's just doing stuff.

And he kind of talks to people kind of taking for granted obvious advice,

Which maybe isn't so relatable or useful if you're dealing with an acute problem.

But once you've kind of gotten past your acute problem phase,

It's actually more fun or more enjoyable to just have the casual,

Like,

Yeah,

Just do hard things.

We go hunting,

You know,

Whatever,

You know,

It's like,

It's actually more palatable,

I think.

Because I think he does,

He really,

Now that I'm thinking about it,

His nothing that he says or does really contradicts anything that Peterson says about like getting your life together.

And he's pretty much in alignment on those core things of like,

Do difficult,

Meaningful things that are good for you,

Even though they suck.

Yeah.

They're just different.

Like Joe Rogan is like,

You know,

Go crush a kettlebell workout and then like smoke some weed or like do a DMT trip and like blast off into the universe and see what happens.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's Yeah.

Because like Jordan Peterson is like,

He comes from a logos perspective,

Will explain to you why you need something and like explain to you why you've been having troubles.

But Joe Rogan kind of takes it for granted.

Like he's more of an ethos guy.

Like he's just got the character or he's secure to go back to that idea.

Like to him,

It's like,

Why wouldn't I,

On the podcast when someone says,

Oh,

I can't lose weight,

It's like,

Why not?

It's like,

He takes it so for granted that if you're having problems,

You might be like,

Ah,

I need more from this,

But he just like says it matter of fact,

Which yeah.

That's a good way to look at it.

The logos and the ethos.

I think that's a really good way to describe both of those guys.

Yeah.

Whereas someone like David Goggins is a pathos guy with the same message.

He's like,

Stay hard motherfucker.

Like,

Oh yeah.

Okay.

He's not convincing you with your mind.

It's like,

I got to put on shoes and run,

I guess.

He's like doing pushups the whole time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool,

Man.

Well,

It's great to catch up.

I'm glad you're here to chat more often.

Yeah,

Man.

I'm glad I reached out the other day.

I am too.

Yeah.

How long have we been going?

Like an hour and a half.

Yeah.

An hour and change.

An hour and 15.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But definitely going to have to have you on maybe in a couple of semesters when you've learned about the dream stuff,

Because I'm curious.

Yeah.

And yeah,

I'm always curious about what you're thinking about learning.

So it's been fun.

You completely closed the door on any sort of graduate study?

Well,

Actually,

One of the other kind of factors of choosing not to do that was like,

I knew I wanted to have kids in the next couple of years and I just thought it would be challenging.

So right now,

No,

But maybe when my kids are a little older,

Which will be in a while.

So yeah,

Who knows?

18 years.

No,

I mean,

Not that long,

But like not young kids,

I don't think.

Yeah.

But who knows?

Maybe it'll be a breeze.

Maybe I'm overestimating how hard it will be and I'll be at Pacifica as well.

Well,

The thing is,

Is like it's work and it's energy and it's effort,

But it's also for me,

At least it's been so like it's been so nourishing,

Like it's so energetically like exciting to explore these ideas that we've talked about and like be surrounded by people who also love studying that stuff like professionally.

It's like it's a real like it's a real plug in from an energetic perspective.

Yeah,

Actually one of the draws and you kind of touched on it early on and remind me of this is that it kind of reminded me of being in a cult in the positive sense of like there's some tribal elders who know some shit you want to learn and a bunch of people wanting to learn the same things and it's just so refreshing that you can just think out loud with the right like-minded people.

Yeah.

It's a very positive cult mentality.

Cool.

Do you still have your coaching website up or are you open to your clinical practices as it opens to people?

No.

No,

Everything is I've yeah,

I've stepped away from everything and I'm trying to like allow myself to go through this process that is this program and dedicate all my energy into that and yeah,

I have a lot of ideas and I'm just kind of waiting for the right time to start putting them out.

Maybe it might be after I graduate it might be before but okay.

Cool.

Well,

Next time you're on we'll have to plug whatever you have going on.

Sure.

For sure.

Yeah,

It was great to chat,

Man.

I'm glad we could do this.

For sure.

All right.

Take it easy.

All right,

Man.

Take care.

I'll see you in the next one.