Adventures Of Sariputta And Mogallana 5: Common Ground

You are listening to The Adventures of Sarah Puta and Mogulana.

I'm your host,

Morris Sullivan.

Today I'm going to talk about the intersection of Buddhism and Christianity,

And I'll answer a question from a listener about the value of shared silence.

But first,

I want to tell you about a group of people who heard a Dharma talk by Sarah Puta.

This crowd of 500 or so had heard about the Buddha and they wanted to hear the Dharma.

And he and some key disciples were staying fairly close by,

So they decided that they would go visit.

Well,

Along the way,

They happened to first encounter a monk named Ravada.

He was Sarah Puta's younger brother.

He was a very advanced monk and he was an interesting guy in his own right.

But for some reason,

He apparently just didn't want to be bothered by giving Dharma talks that day.

So he was kind of aloof and just didn't say very much.

The group were unhappy about that,

Understandably,

And so they moved on.

And they came to Sarah Puta,

Who graciously agreed that he would talk with them.

However,

Sarah Puta decided to delve into this very deep topic from the Abhidhamma,

The commentaries on the Buddha's discourses.

These commentaries can be very technical and complicated.

And so they got confused,

And Sarah Puta went into exhaustive detail for quite some time.

And so they got bored and they grumbled and they complained and they left.

Well next,

They came to Ananda,

The Buddha's cousin.

And he also happily agreed to give them a teaching.

But Ananda just gave them an overview of the main points of the Dharma,

And they didn't like that either.

He was too sketchy.

Well,

They finally got to the Buddha himself,

And they complained to him about the teachings that they had received from a few of his most distinguished monks.

Ravada didn't bother to teach,

They said.

Sarah Puta was too difficult and too long-winded.

Ananda was too short and too sketchy.

None of them liked any of the discourses that they had heard.

Well,

The Buddha listened.

And then he said,

Blaming others is nothing new.

It has been done since ancient times.

They blame one who is silent.

They blame one who speaks too much.

They blame one who speaks too little.

There is no one in this world who is not blamed.

There has never been and never will be anyone who is always blamed or always praised.

But one who is praised by the wise,

Who know him is endowed with knowledge and virtue,

That one is praised even by the gods.

All those words touched their hearts,

And all 500 of them became devoted followers of the Buddha.

Zen Master Dogen once said that once you find a teacher,

You should seek teachings everywhere.

Not long ago,

I talked a little bit about this,

About finding the Dharma in the sacred words of other traditions.

I'm actually going to talk about something today that I have never given a Dharma talk about before.

Not once.

I'm going to talk about the intersection of Buddhism and Christianity,

But Abrahamic religions in general.

And I'll talk a little bit about a few areas where I think there is some common ground and some differences that are kind of relevant and that I think is important to recognize.

And the reason I'm doing,

And by the way,

When I say differences,

I don't mean things that make one better than the other or anything like that.

I mean things that I think it's important to know and that can lead to misunderstanding if you're not aware of them.

So as I said,

I've never talked about this in a Dharma talk.

Sometimes questions about it come up in the Q&A section during the one day retreat or things like that.

And I get emails from people asking me about things and sometimes private conversations.

But it's a big subject.

Books have been written on this.

It doesn't quite lend itself to a short Dharma talk.

And it's really kind of difficult to talk about one religion in the context of another without looking like you're making comparisons or trying to convert somebody.

And also,

It's hard enough to know what you're talking about when it comes to one religion.

I don't know how these people who are multi-faith ministers do it because it's a challenge.

And so I'm going to talk about this,

But bear in mind,

I grew up Christian.

I sort of parted ways.

When I was a teenager,

I studied in college.

That was a long time ago.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a Buddhist.

So now and then,

I get questions from people who are trying to explain their interest in Buddhism to family members who may not really understand why they're doing this and things like that.

And in the past several months,

Maybe because of COVID world or whatever,

I've gotten a few of those.

And so I figured,

Well,

I would give it a shot.

And if I make everybody mad or if I bore everybody or whatever,

I won't talk about it again.

But let me just say one thing before I start.

I have no interest in trying to change anyone's mind about their faith.

If you're grounded in your faith,

I'm glad.

If you have a healthy spirituality with healthy values and good relationships and things like that,

Then I'm all for it.

And generally speaking,

This is one of the differences that sometimes people don't realize.

Buddhists kind of don't try to convert people.

The Buddha himself would sometimes point out wrong views,

But he didn't disparage other religions.

In fact,

He gave a talk about how there are five factors that a teacher should establish in his heart before teaching,

And to not exalt yourself or disparage others is one of those five factors.

But there are some things that are different that it's good,

I think,

To understand.

Another is that when you give a Dharma talk,

And someone like me gives a Dharma talk,

You shouldn't preach.

One of my teachers used to say,

Never preach the Dharma.

To preach the Dharma is to destroy the Dharma.

Instead we teach.

My religious title is sensei,

Which means teacher.

So to preach is to advocate for a specific position or action or something like that.

To teach is to enable or assist someone to acquire knowledge or skill.

So we don't proselytize to the extent that we push our viewpoint on others.

There's kind of another thing we do instead.

There's a Pali word that applies to this,

Ehipasikō.

It means come and see for yourself.

So we invite others to hear the Dharma,

We make it available.

If it works for you,

Great.

If it doesn't,

That's okay too.

See for yourself if this is beneficial to you.

Buddhism also allows room for doubt.

You should find the truth for yourself,

Not just take it from someone else.

There's another famous discourse where the Buddha is asked by a group of people,

How could they know if a teaching is true or not?

And he says,

Doubt has a place.

He says,

It is right for you to doubt.

Doubt has arisen in you about dubious matters.

Don't rely on oral tradition or on the lineage of teachers or holy scriptures or abstract logic.

Don't place blind trust in impressive personalities or venerated gurus.

See for yourself.

When you know for yourself that something is unwholesome and harmful,

Then let it go.

And when you know for yourself that something is wholesome and beneficial,

Then accept it and put it into practice.

This is not unique about Buddhism,

By the way.

We tend to think of religion as having this sort of mine is the only way attitude,

But that's really not all that universal.

In fact,

Jesus himself said to see for yourself if a teacher's teachings were harmful or helpful.

In the Sermon on the Mount,

Which is kind of one of the places that I go,

If I want to look for parallels between Christianity and Buddhism,

He talked in the sermon about being wary of false teachers.

And like the Buddha,

He didn't say,

My stuff is good and everything else is bad.

He said,

Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?

No.

Every good tree bears good fruit,

But a bad tree bears bad fruit.

And thus by your fruit will you recognize them.

In other words,

As the Buddha said many times,

We look at the fruit of the teaching.

What ripens as a result of putting this into practice?

And based on that,

We decide whether to follow the teaching or not.

One of the most important differences that we should be aware of probably is that Buddhism is largely a system of practice.

And Christianity and a lot of the other Abrahamic religions are largely systems of belief.

So you could say that Christianity and those religions are concerned more with orthodoxy,

While Buddhism is concerned with orthopraxy.

Aren't you glad we're inside?

I drove through this on the way here.

It's kind of worked its way down here now.

I was at the Thai temple one time and this fellow I was talking with said something about Buddhism and he used that word Buddhism.

And this Thai woman standing nearby said,

Don't say Buddhism.

It's not an ism.

It's Buddha sasana.

It's Buddha practice.

And her point is kind of a good one.

So the idea of an ism is a belief system.

Orthodoxy is about having correct beliefs and correct rituals and things like that.

The sasana she mentioned refers to orthopraxy.

It's about correct conduct,

Ethical actions and right practice.

So that's not to say that Buddhists don't believe anything and it's not to imply that Christians don't practice.

But if I went out and asked the preacher,

What is Christianity?

More than likely he'll quote John 3.

16.

We believe that God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

But when the Buddha was asked in as few words as possible,

What is your teaching?

He answered just this,

Do good,

Avoid evil,

Purify the mind.

Now as Buddhist monks went to other places and carried the teachings to other cultures,

Things evolved and so now there are actually a lot of different ways to practice Buddhism.

Some are still very humanistic.

Some are pretty theistic.

But still,

Buddhism doesn't require conversion.

You can practice Buddhism without abandoning another religion.

There are people here who are examples of that.

So you might let go of some things if you start to practice Buddhism but those are generally things that are standing in the way of your deeper relationship to life and the divine anyway.

I think all the world's religions share at their core some common understandings.

And Zen master Dogen who founded Soto Zen in Japan once said that once you find a teacher,

You should seek teachings everywhere,

Even ask questions of rocks and clouds.

Well if I'm going to get a teaching from a rock,

Why wouldn't I get a teaching from a Baptist or a Jewish person or a Sikh or a Baha'i?

Buddhism and compassion exist in lots of different places.

There are a lot of books on interfaith religious exploration and a lot about the intersection of Buddhism with Christianity,

Islam,

Judaism and so on.

For example,

Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh became friends with Christian theologian Thomas Merton and that led to him writing a couple of books and doing an annual retreat at Christmas time,

A Buddhist-Christian retreat,

A combined interfaith retreat.

And then from the other side there are Christian teachers who learn from Buddhism and one of the ones that I think is most interesting to read is Father Robert Kennedy.

He was a Jesuit priest who went to a Zen retreat during the ecumenical movement and Catholicism and he ended up realizing that this Japanese guy was trying to make a better Christian out of him during the course of this retreat.

And so he got very interested in Zen and he's written a book called Zen Gifts for Christians and he's a Zen master now,

A recognized Zen master.

And he suggests that people are often attracted to studying Zen not because they want to become Buddhists but because they want to seek a more contemplative life.

And he wrote Zen gives us a method to put contemplation into practice.

Training doesn't allow us to analyze or theorize about prayer or life.

Instead it plunges us at the outset into the contemplative act in which there is no subject or object.

In other words,

If you want to put that into Christian terms,

It gives you an awareness of God that you can't get just by listening to someone talk or thinking about praying.

There's this famous old adage about theologians arguing about how many angels could dance on the head of a pen.

And in Zen,

And I think in Buddhism more generally,

You would transcend that argument.

What angel?

What pen?

How are they different?

You know,

What theologian,

When the entire universe is dancing,

Then why get caught up in such a question?

Why not dance with the universe?

So Kennedy goes on to say that the experience offered by Zen and other contemplative practices offer us a deep insight into oneness,

Which reveals to us our true potential and calls us really to service for others and brings us into the present moment,

Clarifying and supporting our readiness to meet the ever-changing circumstances of daily living.

So sometimes people are afraid of other religions,

And people get caught up in clinging to a particular religion in and of itself,

Not realizing that religions are a way to seek spiritual freedom.

They're not spiritual freedom itself.

And so if you're kind of thinking,

Well,

Where do I go then?

Where should I be headed with my spiritual practice?

There was a Christian theologian named James Fowler.

He just died about five years ago.

But he was a professor of theology and human development at Emory,

And he was a Methodist minister.

And he wrote a book called Stages of Faith,

Which has become kind of a key part of a lot of religious studies programs.

And he identified seven stages of faith.

And I'm not going to go through them in a lot of detail,

But basically,

You know,

From infancy through the first couple of years,

You're kind of trying to figure out what's going on.

And if you have a sense that you're nurtured by the universe,

You tend to develop kind of a positive feeling,

Openness to the divine.

And if you don't,

You might be a little bit more skeptical of that relationship.

And then age three to seven,

Kids start hearing the stories,

And they start kind of getting a sense of what religion might be.

I remember when my son was probably four or five years old,

He was playing with another kid,

And they had some like Power Ranger action figures or something like that.

And one of them was being God.

He was like,

I'm God!

That's kind of how they start to get a sense of what being is and that sort of thing.

And then a little bit older,

You know,

You start to conform to authority.

What?

Oh,

Well,

This person that I recognize as an authority figure says this is true,

And so I'm going to follow that.

And then a lot of people get hung up there.

That's as far as they get.

They sort of get sunk into their religion and believing what they've been told,

But other people go a little bit farther and start taking personal responsibility for their spirituality.

And so they become a little bit more open to complexities and gray areas and things like that.

So around mid-life,

A lot of people really develop this ability to have kind of a multidimensional view of spirituality.

They can recognize the point where you recognize the mystery and you don't feel like you need to answer it.

You can just appreciate it for what it is,

That sort of thing.

And then finally,

There's this point that some people might call enlightenment,

This sort of universalizing.

This is where you can have compassion for everyone.

You see everyone as a universal community regardless of who they are or what they believe.

And you recognize universal principles of love and justice,

And you recognize oneness and things like that,

And you see that these things transcend differences.

And so that,

I think,

Is something maybe to work toward,

Is that ability to recognize the divine everywhere.

You hear that in sermons all the time.

The Buddha is everywhere.

God is everywhere.

But when you can really experience that,

Then it doesn't matter who you're talking to.

You can find commonality,

Common belief,

Common love,

For lack of a better word.

So there are some things where you can look at Christianity and say,

Oh,

Look,

There's a real parallel here.

One is in the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus says,

You have heard that it was said,

Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

But I tell you,

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

And what did we do just a little while ago?

May all those who have wronged me be happy and well,

May no harm come to them,

May they learn compassion.

We're putting that into practice here.

There's another area in that particular sermon where he says,

He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good alike,

And sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

And there's a section in the Lotus Sutra,

Which,

When I first read this chapter,

I went,

Oh,

That sounds familiar.

The Buddha is like a great cloud,

A beneficent cloud full of moisture,

Bringing gladness and ease to all.

People their forms and capacities,

Some are great and some small.

The enriching rain,

Though one and the same,

Enables each to flourish.

The Beatitudes,

You know,

That's where Jesus says,

Who's blessed?

And when I first read the Mangalang Sutra,

Which is where the Buddha says,

These are the people who are blessed,

I said,

Oh,

There's a lot of similarity here.

Jesus said,

Blessed are the poor in spirit,

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I was listening to a minister talk about this not too terribly long ago.

He was talking about what it meant to be poor in spirit,

Which is one of those things that I've probably heard a million times and never thought about very much.

And I realized that what this minister was describing is something that in Zen we call not knowing.

There's a famous Koan.

Fa Yan was going on a pilgrimage and Di Zhang,

The master at the monastery where he stopped for the night,

Said,

Where are you going?

Fa Yan said,

Going around on pilgrimage.

Di Zhang said,

What is the purpose of pilgrimage?

Fa Yan said,

I don't know.

Di Zhang said,

Not knowing is most intimate.

If we're to approach the divine,

If we're to approach the ground of being,

Whatever you want to call that,

If we're going to experience oneness,

We have to set aside this idea that we know everything.

We have to let that go.

And so it's right there in the Beatitudes and it's right there in Zen.

In order to know,

We have to first not know.

He said,

Blessed are those who mourn,

For they will be comforted.

And there's a famous exchange between a student of Soham Roshi who was struggling and struggling with his practice and he came to Soham Roshi and he said,

Master,

I'm so discouraged.

What can I do?

And Soham Roshi said,

Encourage others.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

For they will be filled.

And in the Blessing Sutra the Buddha says,

To be generous in giving,

To be righteous in conduct and blameless in action,

This is the greatest blessing.

Blessed is the pure of heart,

For they will see God.

And the Buddha says,

Self-restraint,

The holy and chaste light,

The perception of the noble truths,

The realization of nirvana,

This is the greatest blessing.

Blessed are you when people persecute you,

Insult you,

Falsely say all kinds of evil against you.

Rejoice and be glad,

For great is your reward in heaven.

And the Buddha says,

A mind unruffled by the vagaries of gain and loss,

Honor and dishonor,

Praise and blame,

Pain and joy,

Free from sorrow,

Delusions and fear,

This is the greatest blessing.

Those who thus abide ever remain invincible in happiness established.

Those are the greatest blessings.

So you know,

You'll hear people say things like,

All paths lead up the same moon.

I don't really quite agree with that because when you look at different religions and kind of where the teachings are supposed to go,

You know,

They'll have different objectives.

But I think that we could say that all paths lead out of the same valley.

In Psalm 23 that valley is,

That's the valley of the shadow of death.

In Buddhism that's the Saha world,

The world of pain and sorrow,

Where nothing is permanent and everything changes,

And where if you're born you're going to experience difficulties.

In any case,

Whatever mountain you climb,

The view from the mountaintop is a good one,

No matter what mountain you end up climbing.

So thank you very much for your attention.

I appreciate your time.

I got a great question from a listener this week who left a voice message on our anchor page.

Hey,

Sensei Morris,

This is Ben Collins,

Pastor over at Collective Church.

Thanks so much for your teachings.

We're actually this coming Sunday talking about silence and how we can practice silence together as a way of cultivating a more healthy neighborhood.

And so I'm wondering in your Buddhist practice what you think about that.

How is the practice of sharing silence together helping us to create a healthier neighborhood together?

Whatever thoughts you have on that,

I'd love to hear.

Thanks Sensei Morris.

That is such a great question,

Ben.

For those of you who don't know,

Collective Church is an inclusive religious community and a land where I live.

So we share a neighborhood and I'd like to think that my Buddhism is as welcoming to people of all faiths as Pastor Ben's Christianity is.

So to this question,

How can being silent together help create a healthier neighborhood?

Well,

Silence is an important factor in many Buddhist traditions.

The Buddha often told monks to go meditate in a secluded place,

Under a tree in the forest,

In a cave and so on.

But seclusion involves being alone and that's a good practice.

But Buddhism also includes recognizing the sanctity of community.

People will often tell me how important it is for them to sometimes meditate with a group.

There's a shared energy that comes from being silent together.

It is very special,

Very profound.

As we're learning now,

Even to be silent together in a virtual setting like a Zoom room or something like that has at least some of that effect.

On a retreat together or during the meditation portion of a service,

You're not interacting in any way,

But you're being present not only with each other,

But for one another.

I sit in silence in order to develop calmness and serenity and there are many health benefits to that.

But my ability to be calm and my willingness to be silent alongside my neighbors also benefits my community.

Your silence benefits me,

My silence benefits you.

We're together sharing an activity where we are at once looking out for our own well-being and for the well-being of others.

And that's really the role of spiritual practice,

I think,

Isn't it?

To care for ourselves and simultaneously care for and receive care from others.

That's a very profound thing.

And to be silent together is a perfect expression of that.

On a more practical level,

When we sit in silence,

We get the opportunity to really study our own minds.

That's why silent retreats are silent.

We're reducing the amount of distraction,

Reducing the number of things that can stir up a lot of mental activity so that we can see more clearly how we,

With our mental actions,

Create stress for ourselves.

When we meditate,

We practice letting go and letting be.

You don't have to fix anything,

You don't have to judge anything.

You let go of those things that you can let go,

The others you let be.

In that process,

We develop mental resilience and we reduce our reactivity.

So if each of us can do that,

Even a little bit,

Then we're participating less and creating external stress and we're paying attention to more things that are really important.

Suddenly our relationships and our community become calmer.

So thanks again for that great question.

If you have a question for me,

Please feel free to ask.

Just go to the podcast profile on anchor.

Fm and leave a voice message.

It would be great if you'd also leave your first name and where you're from.

I want to thank you for listening.

Thank you to White Sands Buddhist Center,

Where I gave the Dharma talk to Sprinkle Graphics for the artwork,

To Edward Simon for the song.

If you haven't listened to episode four yet,

Please do.

You'll enjoy hearing about how the Dharma has informed his music.

I hope you will subscribe,

Continue to listen,

And put the Dharma into practice in your own life.

Now,

Go save the world.