Healing From Childhood Conditioning And Religious Trauma

Welcome to the Shifting with Marlee podcast.

I'm Marlee.

Thank you for joining me wherever you are.

All that I ask of you,

The listener,

Is to have an open mind and an open heart.

And in return,

I offer you myself.

Today,

We're going to talk about healing our inner child in childhood wounds and healing the conditioning we take on from our childhood and adolescent years.

We're also going to talk about taking back our power from all the ways we give it away and aligning with our true authentic selves and our intuition.

And we're going to talk about moving out of the paradigm of control that we've been in and into sovereignty.

And we're going to talk about all of this today through story and experience with a dash of astrology.

Here to share her story and wisdom with us today is Emily Gustafson.

Emily is an astrologer,

Poet,

Cacao facilitator,

Student of life,

And is training to be a therapist.

Welcome,

Emily.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for being here today.

I'm truly so grateful and excited to connect with you.

Me too.

So,

Emily,

We have a lot to talk about today,

And I am so excited.

But before we dive in,

A little content warning for everyone listening.

We're going to be talking today about cults and high control groups and organized religion.

If that triggers you or that's not your cup of tea,

I'll see you in the next episode.

So to start off today,

Emily,

Can you please share with us about your childhood and your experience growing up in a religious high control group?

Yeah.

So I think I just want to preface this by saying that my parents are incredibly loving,

And supportive individuals,

And I'm very close with my family.

So it's really interesting to contrast the people that I know they are with the way that I grew up.

I was raised in a Christian fundamentalist background,

And I attended church at least three times a week from the time I was very small.

My parents were actively involved in ministry when I was growing up,

And so the church was just a really vital part of my life.

And then I was also homeschooled,

And my parents decided to homeschool me and my three younger sisters because they didn't want us exposed to what was being taught in the public school system.

And so I think it was very much out of love and a desire to protect,

But I definitely look back and I'm just like,

Wow,

My world was so small,

And who I was exposed to,

And the ways of thinking that I was exposed to,

The different worldviews,

There weren't.

There weren't others.

And it's really interesting to look back on that.

Thank you so much for sharing,

Emily,

And just thank you for being here and willing to get vulnerable.

I'm super grateful.

And just a few follow-up questions.

So what were the ages that you were in this group or in this lifestyle?

Yeah.

So from the time that I was born until really I left to join the military,

I joined the Navy when I was 19,

And that was really the first time that I really broke away from that.

I had definitely done some experimenting when I got out of high school,

But I was still,

For the most part,

Living at home.

And so there were a lot of rules for what I was,

And I wasn't allowed to do,

And I was really rebellious and really struggling with those restrictions.

Can you share with us what some of those rules and restrictions were,

And what the lifestyle was,

And also what were the beliefs and principles of your family and the group that you were in at this time?

Yeah.

So I would definitely say that it was stricter,

A lot stricter when I was younger.

When I was born,

I was born in Louisiana in New Orleans,

And I lived there,

And that's the place where I was homeschooled.

And so during that time period,

I mean,

I loved music,

And I was only allowed to listen to Christian music.

And for a while,

I was actually,

I remember my dad taking me to the Christian music CD store,

And we would listen.

Back then,

They had those,

I don't know what they were,

But they had headphones,

And you could pick an album and listen to a track from it.

And I wasn't allowed to listen to music that was syncopated.

So it was the most obscure rules,

But it was like,

Anything from the kind of music that I was allowed to listen to,

To the people that I was allowed to hang out with,

They were really strict about that.

I really wasn't allowed to hang out with people that weren't associated with the church or the religion just because they felt like it was a bad influence,

And basically any media.

So movies,

TV shows,

Things like that.

Weren't allowed.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It's so interesting because I think it's all driven out of a desire to protect your child from the world and these outside influences,

But it turns them into little robots who have only ever been exposed to a single way of thinking.

And I think that's not just dangerous,

But really developmentally harmful for children.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

I agree.

And I'm also curious,

How do you remember feeling while you were growing up in this strict religion?

Yeah.

It's interesting because I remember struggling with anxiety and depression from an incredibly young age.

And I don't know if you're familiar with the term maladaptive daydreaming.

It's essentially,

It happens often in children,

Especially children who've been exposed to some kind of huge stressor or trauma.

And it essentially involves like creating this fantasy world that you are just like dying to get to all the time.

And I mean,

I was a very imaginative child and I loved to read,

But I would daydream almost constantly.

I remember being,

I was homeschooled.

So there would be times where I would just finish up my homework like as quickly as I could so that I could lay my head down on my desk and like go into this dream world that I created.

And so how did I feel when I was growing up?

I think that all of this kind of signs and symptoms of religious trauma that people experience when they're older,

I felt them so young.

I think that there's like a real a real adherence to this idea of being as good for God as you possibly can.

And it's this desire to just like to never fail and to always be perfect.

I remember feeling so deeply shameful as a child.

It makes me really sad to think about.

Thank you for sharing,

Emily.

And how did your family end up in this religion or in this church?

My parents both come from very Christian families.

On my mom's side,

Much less strict.

And on my dad's side,

My grandparents were incredibly Christian,

Like very focused on missions and very just very strict with what entered their household and what didn't.

And so my parents actually both met at a place called Jimmy Swaggart Ministries in New Orleans.

And so they met through the church.

And so that was like very,

Very foundational,

I think,

Just even in the kind of family they wanted to create.

And what were some of the teachings and values of this church that were instilled on you when you were growing up?

So Christian fundamentalism involves like a very literal interpretation of the Bible.

I think one of the biggest things,

One of the things that took me years to unwind within myself was the teachings on evolution and creationism.

The church that I went to was a huge advocate for the teachings of creationism,

Which is essentially this idea that God created the world in six days.

On the seventh day,

He rested.

But this was like 8,

000 years ago.

And evolution and basically all of modern science is just this huge attempt to disprove God's existence.

And so I remember that being a huge divide between me even as a teenager.

And when I was 17,

I had a job at a grocery store.

And I remember talking to some of other teenagers and they were like,

Yeah,

That's weird.

That's weird that you believe that.

I was like,

Yeah,

I think it is actually.

And what about some other values that were instilled on you from the church?

I mean,

Very traditional families.

Definitely gay was bad.

And that was really difficult.

For me,

I came out as bisexual during the time that I was in the Navy.

And so that felt just like warring within myself too.

I mean,

Just that idea of like,

This is what's right in God's eyes and in the Bible.

So it was like,

Just it's like cultural conservatism.

It's just this idea of like traditional family.

And this is what it looks like.

And this is how they act.

And this is the way that you're supposed to live your life according to God.

There were a lot of strict rules around sexuality.

I mean,

Not even just as it pertains to like homosexuality or queerness,

But in the ways that women were supposed to dress and supposed to act,

Supposed to carry themselves.

I mean,

When I was a teenager,

My youth group would have purity retreats for the girls and they could have had them for the boys too.

I don't remember that happening.

And like,

My memory could be faulty.

Maybe they were doing that.

But especially in like the books that were circulating at that time about purity culture,

The emphasis was definitely placed on the women.

And so I think that there was just a lot of ideas in the church,

Especially geared towards women,

Towards the way that we were supposed to act,

The roles that we were supposed to occupy.

I mean,

When I was young,

I remember that question that people always ask like eight-year-olds and they're like,

Well,

What do you want to be when you grow up?

And I was like,

I want to be a pastor's wife.

What?

I don't even want to be the one on the pulpit.

I wanted to be the one like sitting in the front row cheering him on.

Are you kidding?

Wow.

The times have changed.

Thank God.

Yes.

And what about your experience with being disciplined growing up in this culture and this religion?

Yeah.

I think in a lot of Christian circles,

And I certainly can't speak for all of them,

But in my homeschool group,

In a lot of my friends' families,

It's definitely geared towards this authoritarian style of discipline.

And that really centers just strict rules and respect and high expectations and really harsh punishments.

So I was spanked as a child.

It's a common,

Well,

Maybe not anymore,

I hope,

But back then it was more common.

And especially,

I think in Christian families,

There was this idea that you had to obey without asking any questions.

And it's like,

You don't ask why.

And I asked why a lot.

I needed to unwind the meaning behind things.

And I was like,

No,

I do not want to do things on command.

That goes against everything in my body.

I want to understand why you're asking me to do this,

And then I'll decide.

And that did not go well.

And I was spanked a lot.

Yeah.

I mean,

There's so many studies now about how spanking children leads to incredibly high rates of depression and anxiety.

And I mean,

I don't have children,

But I cannot imagine ever spanking a child.

It seems so,

It's counterintuitive.

Yeah.

So is there anything else you'd like to share about that group and your experience in your childhood in that group?

Yeah.

I was reflecting on,

Especially in light of everything that's happening right now politically,

I remember during the 2000 presidential election,

There being so many prayer nights,

Like prayer meetings at the church that I was attending in New Orleans.

And at one time,

I really do believe,

I'm like,

I don't think this is a figment of my imagination.

There was like a life-size cutout of George W.

Bush on the stage,

And we were just like,

Hurraying.

And that was a Pentecostal church.

So it was like speaking in tongues and just like getting slain in the spirit,

Like all of these things.

And it was just like,

This man is going to save America.

And I think that's one of the things that I feel like is most dangerous about Christianity when it leaves the playing field of just like,

This is the way that I live my life.

And this is the way that I'm going to interact with other people around me or participate in things because I'm living it according to my code.

And Christian nationalism is this idea that the United States was founded by Christians,

For Christians,

And it's this ideology that's like bent on really,

In my mind,

Reuniting church and state and putting all of the authority in the hands of the religious sex.

And so I remember being really young and having really strong political opinions,

Which is really strange.

I was 13 during the time of the 2004 elections.

And one thing that I remember is,

And this is so horrible,

But I remember driving with my parents and I would see signs for the Democratic candidate,

I think it was like John Kerry.

And I would be like,

I hate him.

I hate him.

He's trying to destroy America.

And it was like this fire that rose up in my young body over something that I had no fucking clue what was going on.

I was just so force-fed.

And I think that's really,

That is the danger is it's like almost turning children into these little soldiers.

And I wouldn't want to turn a child into this soldier who lives and breathes and eats and sleeps the Bible and everything that's been hammered into their head.

I wouldn't want to teach a child how to think for themselves,

How to think critically,

How to form their own ideas about the world.

And I would say that that is not common within the church.

It's about this unified front and this idea that you are being deeply persecuted by everyone around you.

I mean,

I remember thinking that when I was young and my parents have echoed that to me in recent years,

Like Christians are the most persecuted for our faith and we will be hunted for our faith and the end days will come.

And I'm just like,

I don't think that's a reality.

I think there are far more persecuted groups.

And so I think,

Yeah,

It really,

I had such a narrow,

Small view of the world.

And I think that unless you actively escape that,

You just live within that very sheltered environment and it's a vacuum.

You don't hear anything else,

But the sound of everyone else who agrees with you.

And that is not a way to live or grow.

Emily,

I just want to thank you so much for being so open and honest and also commend you for breaking the cycles and not repeating the patterns that you were raised with.

And that is really powerful and really beautiful.

And speaking of breaking free,

You mentioned it briefly that you were a part of this religion and living in this lifestyle up until you were 19 when you went into the Navy.

So can you tell us a little bit more about how you eventually got free from this group?

Yeah.

I was in my senior year of high school.

I was in a relationship with a guy from my church and I was very convinced that I was going to get married and that was going to be the thing that happened.

That was going to be my life.

And I'm not sure what it exactly was,

But something broke inside of me.

And I just remember feeling really restricted my self-expression and also my curiosity.

That was really the biggest part for me.

And I still am insatiably curious.

And the things that I was curious about were like,

Why do you want to know about that?

Why do you want to experience that?

That's wrong.

So something happened and I'm grateful for it.

And we broke up and I was kind of in this free fall of like,

I don't know what I want to do now.

I want to get out of small town,

Illinois.

I have to get out of here.

And my cousin joined the Navy and he was like,

Hey,

Emily,

You want to go to school.

You can't afford it.

You want to get out of East Moline,

Illinois,

Join the Navy.

And I was like,

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Can you imagine me for a moment in the military?

And so I became desperate and I went to see a recruiter.

I left 16 days after that for bootcamp.

And so for me,

That was how I got out.

I signed myself away to a different kind of high control group,

But I got out.

I was going to say the Navy also put lots of rules and restrictions there as well,

I imagine.

Yeah.

Funny to find yourself while in the military,

But I did.

And it was in the military that you kind of started unraveling everything you had been taught.

Yeah.

And I remember I had to check a box for my religion on my papers when I was joining and I checked atheist.

I was like,

Fuck that.

That is behind me.

I don't believe in anything.

And I was so curious about science,

Like secular science,

Well,

Normal science.

But I also remember being at bootcamp and being in such an unfamiliar and overwhelming state that I did go to some of the chapel services on Sunday and it felt really comforting to me.

And when I got to my first duty station in Whidbey Island,

Washington,

I attended a few church services there as well.

And then I kind of,

I really got to this point where I was just like,

Okay,

I know what I was raised to believe in and I know the religious forces that have structured and shaped my life.

And then I went through this period of not believing and it was kind of more of an act of rebellion.

Like me just being like,

Fuck you to my parents.

I'm going to do the worst thing you can imagine.

And I'm going to say that I'm an atheist,

But it wasn't really like me landing on any inner knowing of what I believed.

It was purely 19 year olds,

Angst and rebellion.

And so I remember having this moment where I was like,

I'm not going to go to church anymore.

And I actually just need to take some time to really research things and read things and find what resonates with me,

What rings true within my own body.

And so that was really the start.

And I was probably around 20 when that happened.

Mm,

That's so beautiful.

I'm so glad that you broke free.

And what about your family?

Did they break free as well?

So when I left Illinois and I joined the Navy,

My relationship with my family was very fractured for a long time.

I mean,

My parents are still incredibly involved in the church and I have a tremendous amount of respect for them,

Even though our views are so oftentimes polarized on opposite ends from each other.

But yeah,

I mean,

I would say,

And I don't want to speak for any of my sisters,

But my parents for sure are,

And I think that my sisters still hold those values.

The values of the church,

You mean?

Yeah,

I do.

And it's like,

I've gotten myself in trouble speaking for my family's experience or my sister's experience.

And so I really try my best to respect their own processes because everybody has to come to things in their own time.

And just because this is my path,

The truth that I've come to,

I really trust that they will land on their own meaning of that and whatever serves their souls best in this lifetime.

Yeah,

It's been a divide.

I'll say that.

It's been a divide.

But have you still been able to find your way to a relationship with them at this point after that fracture period?

Absolutely.

For me,

I think it really took my Saturn return and just going through that process.

But it also took me realizing that my family is one of the most important things to me.

And I had to find a way to have a relationship with them where we could all be ourselves.

And I'm not perfect at that yet.

I'm not.

I still get angry and snap and say superior condescending things.

But I am very close with all of them,

And I'm grateful for that.

That's really beautiful that you were able to come around to that place where maybe they haven't followed the same path as you and you're not in the same place.

And they're still in the church,

Some of them,

But that you have this still love for each other and common ground.

And so that is really beautiful.

Yeah.

And I just want to say I was really angry for a really long time at my parents.

I mean,

Just different aspects of the way that I was raised.

It took me a really long time to recognize that they were coming from a place of doing the very best that they could with the knowledge that they had and that it was all rooted in love.

It took me a long time to get to that point.

I was so angry and bitter for so long.

And I think,

I mean,

I would have conversations with my mom and I'd be like,

Well,

This is the way you screwed me over.

And you did this.

And I don't know if you realized,

But purity culture did this.

And I've had all of these experiences.

And then finally,

I just got to the point where I'm like,

Is this really going to be my story forever?

My story of my parents ruining me with religion?

I refuse to let that be my story.

But it took a long time.

I mean,

I'm 33 and I'm still coming into my own understanding of those things and moving past them.

Well,

It's beautiful you were able to find that forgiveness and still love for them.

But it also,

I feel like,

Is a journey of you taking back your power from that story and narrative.

It absolutely was.

It absolutely was.

And that took a long time.

It felt like something that I could not grasp,

Like grasp onto and hold on.

So,

Yeah.

And I'm really curious,

Emily,

What patterns and limiting beliefs and conditioning do you think you took on as a result of your childhood and the religion that you were forced to be a part of for so many years?

Yeah.

It's so interesting because as I look back,

I'm trying to separate what was just the religious aspect and then what were all of these other formative experiences in my life that also,

I mean,

Were just such a melting pot of everything that's ever occurred in our lives.

I think what I touched on earlier,

Just these patterns of,

Especially for me,

Seeking perfection within myself.

And also,

I've carried around a lot of shame,

A lot of guilt.

And I think,

Too,

Something that I've realized in the past probably two years is it's taken a long time for me to learn how to access my anger as a woman.

I really think that we have this birthright of feminine rage within us,

And there are healthy ways that that can be expressed.

But I think I turned that in on myself for a really,

Really long time.

Yeah.

That's big.

That's a big realization,

And it makes a lot of sense.

And your self-reflection and self-awareness that you have is really inspiring.

And how do you think it impacted your self-love and self-worth,

If at all?

Oh,

It decimated it.

You should have seen me as a 20-year-old trying to discover my self-worth in relationships with terrible men in the Navy.

That was it.

It really destroyed it.

It was wrapped up in so many things.

And I don't think that it was only the religious structuring that impacted that.

I think there was just other dynamics within my home,

As there is everywhere.

But there's something too about yearning,

Being taught to even yearn for the approval of this masculine God.

And I think I sought that approval in every male authority figure that I encountered.

I desperately needed to be approved of and told,

Pat on the head,

Hey,

You're doing a good job.

No,

That was great.

That was perfect.

That was perfect.

Those were the words that I needed to hear.

Thank you for sharing,

Emily,

And being so open.

And I think sharing so honestly like this will be helpful and healing for a lot of people.

So thank you.

And here's a big question.

Why do you think your soul chose your family and that experience in this high-control religion in this lifetime?

That is such a hard question.

And I think that every soul comes in with experiences and the family that they are supposed to have.

Firmly,

I really do believe that.

And I've done a lot of past life readings and different psychic readings,

And I can see these patterns even that I experienced with my home life and this one cropping up in other lives.

And so for me,

I feel like sometimes we have to experience something until we're ready to get out of it.

And I don't fully know yet what my life path,

Where that's going to lead me.

But I also firmly believe that every experience that I had has led me to exactly who I am in this moment.

And so it was what I needed.

And I can't wait to see what else occurs in my life that's like,

Yeah,

You needed that.

I'm excited to see it.

I'm like,

Okay,

Yes,

I was prepared for this.

But I think it's out there.

Yeah,

I love that so much.

And it's so interesting,

Emily,

And I'll just share this because I feel like you and I have come around.

.

.

How old am I?

34.

And I feel like you and I today have come around to very similar values and beliefs and our spirituality.

You and I today have come around to a very similar place.

And yet my soul chose the exact opposite experience.

My soul chose a family that was open and spiritual and was not into organized religion at all.

And all of us together were not into organized religion.

And yet I have also done a lot of past life work and have come to know that my soul has a history and many,

Many past lives of religious persecution and religious trauma.

And so I think because maybe I didn't experience it in this life,

But my soul had it in past lives.

And yet you had it in this life,

Right?

And I'm sure past lives,

But you had it in this life.

And so you and I really come around to the same spot,

Even though we started from opposite ends of the spectrum.

And I find that so fascinating.

I do too.

And I'll bring astrology into it.

Even just really learning how to read my own natal chart and seeing everything that was housed within that soul map,

I can see like,

Okay,

Like for example,

My sun and my moon are both in the ninth house and the ninth house is ruled by Jupiter.

And it really speaks to this expansion of the mind.

And it's like higher education,

How much can you learn?

And it's also like ideologies and cults.

And it's like,

How wide can the mind become?

How narrow and focused can it become?

And so,

I mean,

It's very interesting for me to think of my sun,

Which is like my ego,

My expression,

My willpower in this life and my moon,

My emotional world,

My inner world being in the ninth house and that experience.

And then also my Saturn,

My Saturn is in Aquarius in the fourth house.

And that made all the sense in the world to me.

I mean,

From like a Jungian perspective,

Saturn in Aquarius in the fourth house specifically points to a child.

They were not received emotionally or did not receive the emotional nurturing or just even that like recognition for who they were uniquely in their childhood.

And so,

It speaks to a wound around that.

Aquarius is often referred to as like the black sheep.

And so,

I felt that energy very strongly.

What I loved about astrology was I was like,

Okay,

I can see that experience so plainly in my life,

But the upside,

The growth of that is that placement has the potential to emotionally strengthen themselves to be just so emotionally housed within themselves,

Not need outside things.

And I felt that also.

I'm like,

I feel like I can handle anything,

Not in like a lone wolf kind of,

I don't need anyone else way,

But I can literally make it through anything because I contain a world within myself.

CNH.

Full body chills.

I love that so much.

And we'll definitely get more into astrology.

And I'm curious,

You've kind of shared some,

But since you and I both agree and you've shared everything in life as an opportunity for growth and evolution,

Right?

So,

Now that you're on the other side of your childhood experience in this strict religion,

What other gems of wisdom and lessons have you gained from your experience both in the religion and getting free from it?

CMH.

I think that I am deeply grateful to grow up in that environment because now I have this sense of,

Well,

I'm not easily swayed by things.

And also when it comes to any sort of truth,

Like any sort of like wisdom tradition or because my soul craves spirituality,

It really does.

I weigh everything against this knowing that resides within my body.

And it's like,

Someone can ask me,

Okay,

Well,

So this person believes this or there's this religion that believes this or whatever,

Or random spiritual truth.

And I'm just kind of like,

How does that feel inside my body?

Does that feel like truth inside of me?

How does that land in my soul?

And I don't need to be told what is right or what is wrong by anybody else anymore.

I have this like internal compass and I'm deeply grateful for that.

And so,

I think that that's one of the biggest gems for me is just this total release and free fall into the depths of my own intuition and not having to rely on anyone else outside of me.

I don't even have words because that is the most powerful,

Beautiful thing.

Oh,

I wish that for everybody,

Honestly,

To find that within themselves.

And it's universal lessons,

Really,

However we get around to them.

And Emily,

What helped you begin to heal initially after breaking free,

After joining the Navy in those first few tender years?

What helped you the most?

Where I got stationed in Washington,

It's this little island called Whidbey Island and I had a car and I would worry my parents all the time because I would go hiking on the weekends by myself.

And so,

I mean,

I grew up in New Orleans and Illinois.

These are not destinations for beautiful nature.

And when I got to Washington,

The land held me in a way that I did not have words to describe back then,

That relationship.

I was outside all the time and I lived on base.

I mean,

The base was on the edge of an island and there was a running path that went by a beach and I would walk that beach.

I would walk those trails and I did yoga.

I found hot yoga and I loved that.

But really,

For me,

It's been discovering the natural world and developing an active relationship with it.

The earth has held me so soundly,

Unlike anyone else has.

CNH.

That is so beautiful.

I'm so glad you found exactly what you needed in such a beautiful environment as well.

And I feel like that space and time away from that environment was also big too,

I'm sure.

CMH.

It was huge.

I mean,

Up until the time I moved to Washington,

I was living both while I was in New Orleans and in Illinois on my Chiron line.

So,

In astrology,

There's another little branch and it's called astrocartography and it basically maps out these lines,

These energies that run through our natal chart over the map of the world.

Chiron represents the wounds that we came into this life with,

Our deepest core woundings.

He's on that line for 19 years.

It was intense.

I didn't have any lines running through Washington,

So I think I really needed that space to just clear and there to be no outside influences or even those transformational energies of my natal chart I needed to break.

CNH.

Absolutely.

I love that.

And what about now,

Emily?

All these years later,

What are your favorite healing tools and techniques today that help you?

CMH.

I do a lot of ritual land work.

My relationship with the land is,

I think,

My most important practice.

I also practice Reiki and I've worked with a lot of plant medicines,

Plant medicine has been transformational for me,

But for me,

It's been the land.

And also therapy.

That's not as much a spiritual modality,

But I highly recommend anyone who's been raised in an environment like I did to go to therapy,

Even just to sit there and have the therapist look at you with deep concern in their eyes and say,

Emily,

I want you to know that that's not normal.

Because that was freeing.

I was like,

Oh my God,

You're right.

You're right.

Okay,

Wow.

That took a lot of pressure off of me.

That took a lot of guilt and shame.

And so,

Yeah,

I recommend therapy too.

Therapy in the woods.

Therapy in the earth.

That's it.

I love it.

I love your evolution so much,

Emily.

And I feel like it's also really important to say that our healing and our growth journey is a lifelong journey,

Right?

There's always more layers and more depth and more anger,

But also more magic and love to unlock within ourselves.

It's really the journey of a lifetime,

As they say.

It really is.

And something that has even shifted and occurred for me in,

I would say,

The last year and a half is being able to describe this force in the universe as God.

I do that now,

And I couldn't do that for a really,

Really long time.

It was far too entangled with this patriarchal,

Very rigid,

Destructive God that I was taught about.

And so,

I'm happy that I can say that again.

And it feels right,

And it feels good to me.

You know,

It's really funny that you bring that up because,

Again,

Us having different experiences in this lifetime,

But my soul,

Right,

Having all of this past life,

Religious persecution and trauma,

I,

To this day,

Do not like using the word God.

It's still too intertwined for me.

Just the word.

So,

I use alternatives that feel better and less triggering for me,

Right?

So,

It's so beautiful.

It's so beautiful that you released the energy around the word and then found it again in describing the divine,

And that is so,

So beautiful.

It's just,

I find it hilarious that I'm still not there.

And again,

Even though I have no religious trauma from this lifetime.

But things go so deep within our souls and our psyches,

So I think it's totally normal.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Emily,

Are there any other tips or tools that you can recommend to help those listening with inner child healing and healing these childhood wounds and deconditioning from all the things we took on in childhood that no longer serve us?

Hmm.

I would say create situations where you can play.

Because I was thinking,

I'm like,

Okay,

I've done a lot of guided meditation that have taken me back,

And I've done a lot of plant medicine that's taken me back,

And I've gone through all of these things that have taken me back to that time so that I could work on them individually.

But playing,

Anytime I go to the by myself,

I make a sandcastle.

I become a feral child on the beach,

And I dance a lot in my house with my cat.

I think getting in that state of play really unlocks so much.

I mean,

I've been dancing.

And a lot of these things are somatic tools as well.

It's like you're shaking the body,

And you're moving it,

And things are dislodged.

But I would remember something that had happened to me or something that I had done or a situation,

And it's like,

Okay,

Well,

I'm still in this form of movement,

And it's like I can still work this through my body.

And my God,

I just want to say,

Go on walks in the woods.

That's all I want to say.

Because the thing is I love plant medicine,

And I love past life regressions,

And I love psychic readings,

And I love all of these tools that have honestly really not just supported but validated my path in life.

I think that has been the biggest gift of those modalities.

But the enduring thing and the thing that I do as often as I can is go out into nature by myself.

It's so simple,

But it literally rewires our brain and puts us into a different relationship with the world outside of us.

I think for a lot of people who have experienced just trauma in general—it doesn't have to be religious trauma,

Any form—connecting with others can often feel unsafe and dangerous and scary.

And the thing is that maybe we just take it one step at a time,

And we don't have to connect with our human kin,

But we can go on a walk in the woods and observe the birds or see a very cool slug or mushrooms.

I think that is the thing that's changed my life,

Is forging those connections with things that feel very safe and steady and not changing.

I have a huge smile on my face.

I love that so much.

I totally agree.

And you know what?

That's been exactly my experience as well.

The biggest practice and healing tool for me that has helped me heal my childhood wounding is developing my relationship with the earth as well.

It's our earth mother,

Right?

Everything I didn't receive from my own parents that I needed,

I found in nature,

Like that unconditional love and acceptance of who I am,

That spaciousness,

That groundedness,

Learning how to process and flow with anger and rage,

And also at the same time learning surrender.

I feel now,

Similar to you,

That I can turn to the earth for literally anything,

And she holds me and she listens to me and she loves me and holds me with these loving arms.

I just feel so held by her as well,

So I'm so happy you brought that up.

Just so much inner child healing for me as well through building my relationship with the earth.

It's hard to even put into words.

Also,

That's where I found my connection to the sacred and divine as well,

And where I learned that everything is connected.

I'm going to use the G word,

Even though it makes me uncomfortable,

Where I found God in nature.

Nature is both my school and my church.

Literally.

Literally.

Yes.

I resonate.

I have full body chills.

It's my turn for the chills.

Emily,

You already shared a little bit about this,

But something that I know is really common in these high-control groups is people in the group give their power away and give their decision-making power away and mask and suppress often their inner voice and inner knowing.

I'm curious how your journey has unfolded from your childhood until now with discovering your intuition and your inner wisdom and your inner voice and inner power and sovereignty.

Yeah.

You know,

Something that's so interesting is I grew up hearing when I was really little,

I would wake up early in the morning and I would walk out to the living room and I would lie on the couch and I would kind of like doze off because my parents would be walking together and praying every single morning.

And I find that beautiful still because I do think that prayer is a way to connect to that intuitive voice within you or the source outside you.

But I also think that many people don't develop that and many people just turn to whoever the religious leader is to tell me what to do,

Tell me how to live my life,

Tell me what is right and what is wrong.

That's the part that gets so icky because who are we outsourcing our power to?

I mean,

They're not God.

They ain't goddess.

Who are they and what are their motives?

So I think for me,

The way that I have found my way back to my own intuition is I have two answers.

Really sitting with myself in silence and allowing myself to not know what to do.

I think we strive for answers quickly.

We want the answer.

We want the next step.

And especially me.

I mean,

I'm speaking for myself.

I'm like,

Okay,

What's the next thing?

I need to know.

I need to know the step like five years down the line.

I need to prepare for that in this moment.

So please someone tell me what to do or please let me just land on a decision.

And I think really being willing to sit in that darkness,

In the murky darkness where you don't know where the next step is,

Has allowed me to hear that inner voice again.

Because when we don't listen for a long time,

When we've outsourced our intuition and our power to anything outside of us,

That voice,

It gets really soft and it gets really quiet.

And it's hard to hear it.

And you have to retrain.

You have to retrain yourself to be able to receive it.

So I would say that.

And I love myths and I love old stories.

And reading Women Who Run With the Wolves by Dr.

Clarissa Pinko de Estes changed my life.

I think myths are so powerful because we are witnessing these archetypes,

But also ourselves or facets of ourselves through these old stories and we can really find ourselves within them.

And so I think really orienting my life to these myths that I resonated with,

I think that really instilled a deeper communion with my intuition,

Especially as a woman.

I love that so much.

What a journey.

And now you're literally an intuitive and using your intuition like 24-7 and helping others even.

And it's,

Yeah,

So beautiful.

So beautiful.

And since you're an astrologer now too,

Emily,

Obviously you shared a little bit about your natal chart and how that's helped you.

But I'm curious when you've discovered astrology and how it's helped you on your healing journey and also how it's helped you uncover through under all the conditioning from your childhood,

Your true authentic self.

CMH Yeah,

I love that question.

I would say I played with astrology for a long time,

Very surface level.

The memes that are like Aries does this and Gemini does this and this is what a Cancer's like.

And I really liked those,

And I was really curious about it.

I mean,

I'm a double Cancer,

Sun and Moon,

Libra rising.

And so I ate that up.

But I started reading the work of this woman who is a Jungian analyst and also an astrologer.

And I just got so curious because I was learning psychology and I was also seeing how astrology could be woven in and so informational.

I had a session with a therapist who is also an astrologer.

She read me to filth on our introductory call.

I'm like,

How do you know?

How do you know these things about me?

And so I was pretty hooked.

And so I did the Deborah Silverman Applied Astrology School and I completed that in the spring,

I think March or April of 2023.

And so that's when it really took root.

I think our natal charts,

Our birth charts are so magical because they really paint a picture of not just our struggles or the potential woundings that could occur,

But also our deepest strengths,

Our greatest assets.

And I saw myself within my chart.

I saw the pain,

I saw the hard things,

But then I also saw it through this lens of like,

Okay,

Well,

If I am able to alchemize this,

This could be my greatest gift.

This could deepen my wisdom and my compassion and my understanding.

And so I think that that's really the way that I have utilized astrology.

And that's really the approach that I take to the readings that I do with other people.

It's like,

Well,

Let's look at this and let's validate first some of the life experiences you've had.

That's crucial and that's like healing in and of itself.

And then like,

Well,

Let's see the potential for growth.

Let's see where we could go.

Yeah,

I love that.

And I view healing,

Especially when it comes to healing our childhood wounds,

Right?

It's like wading through all of the mud and the muck and digging through the layers and knocking down the walls until we basically end up at our true authentic selves.

And I feel like astrology really,

Really helps with that and helps get there quicker.

And I know for me,

Astrology helped me because it gave me permission,

First of all,

To be who I was.

And then I found so much understanding about my wounds and my childhood wounds and past life wounds,

Et cetera,

Et cetera,

Through understanding my birth chart.

Astrology,

I feel like,

Helped me understand both my power and my wounds on a deeper level.

CMH Yeah.

It's such a comprehensive map.

You can see so much in it.

I'm always reading astrology books and always just fascinated at everything within it.

Yeah,

Me too.

Not with the reading astrology books,

But just always fascinated,

And there's always more to uncover.

CMH There always is,

Truly.

CMH So Emily,

Bringing it away from you now,

The spotlight's been on you this whole time.

Bringing it a little bit to the collective,

Why do you think humans are so susceptible to high control groups like cults and strict organized religion?

I think that innately,

Humans have a desire to not only just connect and belong to the people around them or whoever's in their environment,

But also to touch the divine,

To witness the divine.

I feel that.

I feel that so deep within my being,

And I think that humans are longing for that connection.

I think also in this age of,

I would say,

Disconnection that we live in,

It is harder to find those things.

I think that cults and these high control group,

Whether it's religious or even political followings like these groups,

If they find a sense of belonging,

They find a sense of communion and of a kindred spirit feeling,

And I think those groups really prey on that feeling and that feeling of loneliness.

I totally agree.

Very well said.

And I think also humans have historically had this habit and propensity to put our power outside of ourselves and place it in the hands of somebody else or in a religion,

For example,

Or political figure.

We also have this habit of doubting ourselves and not trusting ourselves or our own inner wisdom,

Which leaves room to be influenced by outside voices.

I also think,

Like you said,

Humans are always seeking community,

And that is beautiful.

It's part of human nature,

But I think if you're not using your discernment and listening to your inner voice and not listening to your gut responses,

Which are warning you about red flags,

You can get sucked in.

Yeah,

I totally agree with that.

And Emily,

What do you think are some of the larger lessons that we can all learn from these high-control groups?

What do you think the mirror is for humanity here?

I think that,

Just even touching on what we just spoke about,

Don't ever outsource your power.

I think it was Mary Oliver who said,

Do not give anybody else the responsibility for your own life,

And it's so true in so many aspects.

But I think also this idea that we are superior to others based on what we believe in,

And that does not just happen within religious control groups.

You know,

That happens in all spectrums.

I have been guilty of that.

A sense of moral intellectualism as a left-leaning person.

I have definitely done that.

And so I think this idea that we are not more deserving of anything or have more right to anything based on what we believe,

Because I think that is often lost in translation in those groups.

I love that answer so much.

I totally agree.

And I'll also add as well,

From an outsider's perspective,

Right?

Because I am on the outside,

But from what I can see,

I'll also add that some of the other larger lessons that are being mirrored to us,

Because it's all a reflection,

Right?

And there are lessons and growth available in all experiences on Earth.

Everything we need is within us.

If we can learn to value ourselves and trust ourselves and stand in our power and stand in our sovereignty,

We cannot be controlled.

And the age of the guru,

Which is basically putting your power outside of yourself,

Is over,

Right?

We are our own gurus now.

Yeah.

I'm just snapping my fingers over here.

And I also think as well,

Anything or anyone that makes you feel shameful or less than or unworthy or not lovable or not enough as you are is a red flag.

And also,

Our time and attention are our sacred currencies.

So we need to use our discernment where we give them away.

I think that's a big lesson that's always being mirrored to us.

And then I'll also add another big lesson being mirrored to us by these high control groups is hyper-individualism.

You touched on this,

But I think it's so important to say we're forever learning the lesson that we are all connected,

Nothing is separate,

Everything and everyone is so intimately intertwined and connected.

And even more than that,

I think we're all always being given the opportunity to learn that we each matter,

We are each important,

We are each sacred and divine and worthy aspects of the all that is.

It's just there's so many lessons being mirrored to us here,

Even if you haven't been in a high control group.

There are so many.

I like to think of the ideal society as a mycelial network or even the way that roots of trees interact with each other.

I mean,

They are so connected spanning miles that trees will literally send nutrients through their roots to another tree that needs it.

That's the world that I want to live in.

Standing tall,

Standing independent,

But also grounded and rooted into a greater system of belonging and of care,

Caring for each other.

CBT Absolutely beautiful.

I love that so much.

And Emily,

Bringing it back to astrology,

Since life and the stars mirror each other,

What do some of the recent larger astrological transits say for the collective in terms of the lessons we are moving through currently related to everything that we've been talking about today?

CMH Yeah,

So last year and this year have been really big years in terms of outer planets changing signs.

This is a big deal because it takes a lot of time.

For example,

The moon changes every few days.

And then some of these planets,

I mean,

Pluto is going to stay in Aquarius from last year until 2043.

That's such a long time.

So when the transit times of these outer planets are longer,

We can expect to feel those changes and that energy shift on much more of a collective standpoint than we would for the inner ones that move more quickly and affect our own cycles and rhythms like here on Earth.

And so I think that there's been a lot of speculation around Pluto in Aquarius and just the age of Aquarius and what are we being called into as a collective for me personally with a lot of these transits.

What I see is a lot of these systems that have been functioning for a really long time,

Not necessarily that they're all crumbling.

That would be really nice.

I mean,

We have until 2043,

So let's hope that happens.

But I think we're seeing the underbellies.

We're looking at the underbelly of the system,

And I think that we are going to be seeing that more and more and more.

And there is going to be this chance that emerges for us to,

Because Neptune is also moving into Aries this year as well,

And Neptune is this planet of like,

It can be spiritual delusion,

Like it can be like this foggy haze that like circles us.

I think that there's going to be a really clear choice that emerges like,

Are we going to open our eyes?

Are we going to hold on to the power of our own intuition,

Our own discernment of what is actually going on here?

Or are we just going to submit to the haze and be like,

No,

Everything's fine.

Functioning is normal.

It's okay.

I don't have to change anything in my life.

I don't have to make new moves or alter my behavior in any way.

So I don't know.

Those things are hard to predict,

But I just really feel like a lot is going to come to light,

And it's really this chance of like,

Do we wake up or do we stay asleep?

CNH3 I love astrology so much.

Thank you for sharing that,

And I certainly hope that we wake up.

Like,

Hello,

Hello,

Collective,

Please wake up.

And I just want to share as well,

Because I love reading about astrology and the current transits,

And it's the energy for the collective from everything I've read as well with,

Like you mentioned,

Pluto and Aquarius until 2043.

And then I also want to bring in the North Node now being in Pisces until July 2026,

Collectively,

We are really in a time of ideological shifts where performative leadership and those in power that lack integrity are crumbling.

The false gurus will be exposed,

And that's what you were just sharing.

We are being pushed to think for ourselves and to find our sovereignty,

Like you said,

And we are also really moving out of the paradigm of control that we've been in and moving into freedom.

And this is playing out in so many ways,

Big and small.

And I think with these high control groups in many organized religions,

They also push this narrative of us versus them and judgment and right versus wrong,

Like you talked about,

And hierarchy that are really representative of this paradigm of separation that we've been in as a species for a long time.

But that really has kept us small and kept us from our true power,

And it's really time to move beyond that.

And I really feel like the astrology is pushing us and encouraging us and supporting us to move beyond that.

Yeah,

I absolutely agree.

And I think just to touch on what you said,

We are so weak when we are so divided.

We are weak and we are seeing things wrong when we cannot recognize the human in another person standing across from us.

And I think that whatever force,

I don't know,

Whatever forces you want to label it,

Want people to be separated and want people to be pitted against each other in these extreme gaps.

And I don't think that that's going to work,

And I don't think that's going to carry us into the future that we want.

The future that we want,

People have to find a way to see the soul in another person.

It's truly a powerful and transformative time to be alive,

For real.

Yeah,

It's exciting.

I'm excited.

I'm grateful to be alive right now.

Emily,

I just want to thank you so much for being here today and for being so vulnerable and open and sharing so much.

I'm truly so,

So grateful.

Oh,

Thank you so much.

This has been a wonderful conversation.

I've enjoyed it.

Me too.

And I just have one final important question for you.

Okay.

What is your vision for the future of humanity and the Earth?

Well,

There is an eco-philosopher named Joanna Macy,

And she believes that we are in the midst of the great turning versus the great unraveling,

Which that's not good.

We want to be in the great turning.

And it's this movement away from this industrial growth society into a life-sustaining society.

And I think we are in the great turning too.

And that gives me hope because even as things seem to be falling apart,

Communities are coming together in different ways,

And they're rallying together.

And to me,

That's the future.

I see a world where we are living in reciprocity with the Earth and with other humans,

And we are living with the cycles.

Yeah,

That's what I see.

I think it's within our grasp.

The overarching message I want to leave you with today is healing is possible and growth is inevitable.

You in your authenticity,

You in your power,

You tapped into your worth and value and sovereignty,

You connected to your innate wisdom and intuition and inner love is what humanity and the Earth needs.

Anything holding you back from that and keeping you small has got to go.

I'll end today with a quote from Clarissa Pinkola Estes.

I hope you'll go out and let stories,

That is life,

Happen to you and that you will work with these stories from your life.

Water them with your blood and tears and your laughter till they bloom,

Till you yourself burst into bloom.

That is the work,

The only work.