12. Great Love: How To Achieve A Thriving And Conscious Relationship

To create a relationship where you do want to thrive and you do want to change and you are open to growing and you are also open to the influence of your partner,

There needs to be an energy between the two of you that consists of unity,

Of compassion,

Of empathy and also vulnerability.

In order not just for our relationships to thrive but for ourselves to thrive in all areas,

We need to desire and proactively push towards change,

Positive change,

Change of growth.

The things that you're fantasizing about,

You can have that relationship but it does require this kind of work and it's hard work but it doesn't mean that it's painful work,

It just means it's something you have to consistently do.

I think it's so important,

Especially those of us who want to have a thriving relationship,

Be vulnerable,

Become vulnerable and the other side of this is make sure that it continues to be exceedingly safe for your partner to be vulnerable for you.

Welcome to Spiritually Hungry Podcast episode 12.

I'm very excited about our topic this week.

I guess I say that every week because I am always excited to come together with my husband and talk about anything and everything.

So this week we're going to talk about relationships,

Specifically its purpose and how to cultivate the relationship you want and there's so many ways we're going to focus on two or three points.

So first I want to talk about what our goals are,

Right?

And often either myself or Michael will talk about something that's kind of elevated in terms of the concept or a little bit lofty but I think it's important to do so so you know where you're going,

You have big goals and that's the first step in getting there.

Kabbalists teach us that when two people in a relationship treat the other even better than they treat themselves,

There's no limit to the amount of blessings they can bring into their lives.

Who wouldn't want this,

Right?

Michael,

You want this?

Definitely want this.

You're supposed to say I have this.

I have this.

Oh,

Thank you.

Well,

We all want it but it takes discipline to have consistent awareness.

It takes doing all those little things like the check-in calls to say I understand you're having a hard day,

Just know I'm here for you.

Or share with your partner I'm really scared,

What if my test results indicate that something's wrong?

It takes a consciousness of coming together because often our exchanges are informed by how we're feeling.

We get so immersed in our own experience that we forget that there are two people involved.

The key is to have the same depth of empathy for your partner's feelings that you have for your own.

So how do we get there?

Where do we start?

Yeah,

It's interesting.

We have the opportunity to speak to many different people over the world,

Some people going through challenges and otherwise.

And of course,

The focus of our life and how we try to help or teach people is around spiritual concepts.

I found,

Of course,

That there are people in this world who are not that interested in spirituality.

They have other focuses or they simply don't see the importance of it for their lives right then.

But when it comes to relationships,

I don't think it's possible to have a powerful,

Growing,

Fulfilling relationship without at least some focus on spirituality.

Why is that?

Because there's a reason that most marriages end in divorce.

And it's not because people are bad or because we're not made to be married.

It's not even because they don't love each other,

By the way.

Right.

Or at least they did at some point.

It's because to grow in marriage,

To make a relationship continuously fulfilling and growing with that fulfillment necessitates work.

Now,

That work is actually often against our nature.

And I know we'll have the opportunity in further podcasts to talk about the ego,

But the reality is our basic instincts are often an effect of our ego.

And unless,

And this is the way we view the foundation of spirituality,

Spiritual work and spiritual life,

Unless you actually believe that my ego is something that I need to overcome,

What we call kabbalistically,

My desire to receive for the self alone is something that I want to transform.

I want to change and I want to change it not because my partner will then like me better or she or he will be happier in our relationship.

But at the core,

The reason I want to change and grow and diminish my ego and at least in my interactions with my partner,

Act more in ways of sharing than of receiving.

The reason I want to do that is because I believe that will ultimately make me a happier person.

So if I don't accept or to the degree that we don't accept and accepting is one thing,

Being conscious of it all the time is another.

As long as I don't really accept that I want to change for myself,

That I want to grow for myself,

That I want to find ways to overcome my natural instinct of always adhering to my ego,

Always adhering to my selfishness over all other things.

If I don't accept that I want that to change and I want to overcome that for my own benefit,

Not because I want to be a better husband simply or because I want again my spouse or partner to be happier with me,

Then it makes making a marriage work very,

Very difficult.

Well,

I always say that there are often three in a relationship.

There's the two people and then there's the ego that rears its ugly head.

That was before then.

Well.

Your ego,

My ego.

Okay,

Fine.

But unless you are constantly looking for how your ego is creeping into arguments,

Situations,

It tends to be the lead in the relationship,

Be the driving force,

And then you stop becoming friends along the way.

And when you're not friends,

Right,

And we did a whole podcast on friendship and how important it is.

But when we're talking about romantic relationships,

When you're not friends anymore,

You can't do what I just said about putting another person before yourself or loving them as much as you love yourself or having empathy because that that friendship is then gone.

Absolutely.

And the reason why in a relationship,

This is even though of course,

It's difficult to keep this going in regular friendships,

But the reason it's so difficult to keep this going in a marriage or in a committed relationship is because you're going to be spending obviously an inordinate amount of time with that person and you will have different opinions about many of the things that you're doing so often together.

So the friction will increase if the internal spiritual work of trying to diminish the ego does not increase with it.

And therefore,

It's more likely that marriages end in divorce than friendships end in breakups because the opportunity for friction is greater and therefore the need for a different focus is that much greater.

And therefore,

Again,

What I try to remember for myself as often as I can is that the ego is in the coming every single day,

Many times a day in our relationships,

In our arguments,

In our agreements,

In our conversations.

I want to be conscious of the fact to find those moments and try to change myself in the process.

Again,

Because I'm doing it for myself.

I'm not doing it for Monica.

I'm doing it for myself.

And being in a relationship gives me a greater opportunity to have those situations.

Because ego basically pits two people against one another,

Right?

What is ego saying?

I'm right,

You're wrong.

You won the argument last time.

Now it's my turn.

I want to be heard.

That's the most important thing,

Right?

So this sounds more like an exchange between two enemies,

Really,

Not friends.

And to create a relationship where you do want to thrive and you do want to change and you are open to growing and you are also open to the influence of your partner,

There needs to be an energy between the two of you that consists of unity,

Of compassion,

Of empathy,

And also vulnerability,

Which I'd like to get to a little bit later.

But also trust,

Because if a person is constantly feeling like they need to defend themselves or protect themselves,

Then they're not going to be open to growth and to elevation as a couple.

And slowly before you know it,

You're moving further away from one another.

So as I said earlier,

Love sometimes people still are in love.

I've seen them be in love and they get divorced because they just can't get along.

They forgot how to communicate or how to respect one another,

How to treat each other with a softness or a kindness and it becomes too difficult to live together.

So I always say love is never enough.

That's interesting.

That's definitely true.

And again,

I think just back to the core of what needs to be the foundation,

Right,

Of growing and thriving relationship,

It needs to be the fact that we both individually want to change and grow.

We both want to find ways to not let our ego overtake us and we want to be changed by each other.

And the one caveat is that to create that environment,

It needs to be a space where you feel safe,

Where you are allowing each other to have this place where you can reveal the most sensitive parts,

Most private parts of yourself,

The ones that are attached to ego actually.

And in order to do that,

I like to refer to it,

Well,

Actually it's by this psychologist.

His name's Donald Winnicott and he talks about how the knowledge that we're loved unconditionally creates a safe,

Secure psychological space.

And he calls it the circle of creativity.

And he did a lot of different studies.

He observed children playing in close proximities to their mothers and he noticed that they displayed higher levels of creativity than those who were farther away.

He describes it like this.

It's a space in which children and adults alike can take risks and try things out.

They can fail and they can succeed because they feel secure in the presence of a person who loves them unconditionally.

I think that's a beautiful concept.

Now adults are capable of higher levels of abstraction than children,

So we don't need to be physically near our loved ones to be in their circle of creativity.

Just knowing that we're loved unconditionally makes us feel safe and able to fulfill and manifest our potential.

It encourages us to pursue those things that are meaningful to us because sometimes all you need is someone to believe in you when it's too hard to believe in yourself.

And where this resonated with me so much when I had read it is I remember an experience in our lives,

In our relationship,

Where I was able to see this firsthand.

And I often talk about my struggle with anorexia,

How it was the darkest time in my life.

And I felt alone.

I felt lost.

I had no idea who I was or who I wanted to be.

And I was still in the process of healing when we fell in love.

And I valued,

I remember at this time,

And again,

I was just so broken.

But when we came together,

I valued your depth,

Your spirit,

Your truth.

And even though I couldn't fully embrace mine at the time,

Being loved by you,

An amazing soul,

Allowed two things to happen.

I learned to love myself as I was,

Which was really difficult at the time.

And I discovered I had a huge desire to shed aspects of myself that didn't serve me.

So instead of shaming myself and thinking I wasn't good enough or I wasn't deserving of good things,

I decided to shed the parts of myself that I actually didn't want to connect to anymore.

And that's the power of unconditional love because I was thriving in your circle of creativity.

That's beautiful.

And I think an opportunity now,

We,

I think,

Touched upon two both fundamental and powerful foundations for a thriving relationship.

And I think it's important for all of our listeners to really ask themselves if they're in a relationship now,

Do you and your partner both desire to grow into change?

And do you both,

Or at least from your side,

Do you want to be assisted in that growth and change by your partner?

I just want to pause for one second because when you say desire to grow and change,

That sounds so unappealing to most people.

Really?

And because it's hard work.

Wait,

I want to break it down.

It's hard work.

It's painful.

And,

You know,

I'm a self professed change junkie,

Right?

Did not come in the world like that.

When people think about change,

We all want things in our life to change,

Especially in relationships we often want our partner to change.

We don't naturally and automatically and certainly not the first choice is say,

Okay,

I want to change these parts of myself and then I'll be happier.

No,

I want to change this about you if you put the toilet seat down,

For instance,

Or if you do X,

Y,

And Z.

22 years later,

Getting better at that.

So I think that when we talk about change,

We have to understand and accept the universal truth that we are constantly changing.

All of us in every single moment of every day,

You and I,

As we're sitting here recording this are changing in ways that we can't even see fully or understand or not aware of.

The only choice that we get in life is which way we want to direct our change.

Do we want to go forward or backwards?

It's the only choice you get because it's happening.

So I just want to bring that out and make that a really strong point because change is going to be your constant companion in life,

Whether you want it to or not.

So you might as well embrace it so you can choose and put energy into what you want change.

And I would add that in order to be growing in happiness and fulfillment in life,

You have to be growing and changing.

So yes,

You're right in saying that we're all going to change and we have the choice to either to grow in a positive way forward or regress backwards and change in that negative way.

But I think it's really important.

And again,

I accept that for many people,

This might not be the most comfortable message to hear,

But it's not just based on the thousands of years of tradition of wisdom,

But also I have and thousands of people that I know have experienced this truth.

And in order for my life to be better tomorrow than it is today,

In order for me to be happier tomorrow than I am today,

I have to be changing and growing.

There is no,

I mean,

Again,

And I've seen people fight change.

I've seen people really not embrace change.

I haven't seen anybody happy who's done that.

Well,

Because the idea of change can evoke our most painful memories of difficult transitions and challenging circumstances.

That's how we really equate change.

However,

If we're honest with ourselves,

Change is a part,

Is a constant part of the ebb and flow of the universe.

And we should also give it credit for our happiest experiences.

I know if I'm being really honest with myself,

Those times where I really changed and I went through some kind of transformation,

That's when I felt the most elated,

Right?

Absolutely.

It's interesting.

There's a new book out by Bruce Filler who speaks about,

Who really brings many stories of people who are going through those transitions,

Especially in our lives today with COVID-19 and what's happening in the world.

Everybody's experiencing changes.

And obviously some people embrace it and even the most challenging changes in life,

Embrace it and find the way to grow from it.

But again,

I will,

Again,

I think it's so important to really reinforce this message for myself,

For you and for every one of our listeners.

In order,

Not just for our relationships to thrive,

But for ourselves to thrive in all areas,

We need to desire and proactively push towards change,

Positive change,

Change of growth.

That's the only way to really guarantee that my life gets better every single day.

Because one of the main Kabbalistic tenants that we understand is that our purpose for coming into this world is to transform and to perfect our positive traits and transcend our negative qualities.

So in short,

Change is a necessary part of becoming our best self,

Period,

Full stop.

And there's an American psychologist,

His name's Abraham Maslow,

And he once said,

In any given moment,

We have two options,

To step forward into growth or step back into safety.

I really liked that.

Right.

And the only thing I would say is that back is not really safety.

No,

It's an illusion of safety,

Right?

It's comfort,

Basically.

Right.

But I also wanted to really call attention to something else that you said,

Which I think is so important.

And I know that you and I,

In our relationship,

Have to work on this all the time.

And unfortunately,

I know that you've seen many and I've seen some relationships where this circle of creativity doesn't exist,

Where there isn't a safety and therefore there cannot be real trust in making yourself known to your husband,

To your wife,

And to your partner.

And I don't want to gloss over this point because it is so important.

We have to create in our relationship and constantly be aware of where we're failing in making our space both the circle of creativity,

The circle of openness and trust that I know that I can tell you that my innermost positive and negative thoughts,

Feelings,

And for the most part,

You will accept them.

You will listen to them without judgment.

Why did you laugh when you said that?

Because I'm trying to think that there's,

I'm actually thinking about in times when I have failed in really being as trustworthy,

Meaning,

And again,

Let's make clear what we're talking about.

Are you talking about last night?

It wasn't last night,

It was yesterday afternoon,

Wasn't it?

But the point is this.

I think the point is that any one of us who's listening to this knows a time probably in the last day,

If not in the last week,

Where somebody that you love came to you with sharing an emotion or something it's worse when you're actually involved in it and they just want you to listen to,

They want you to be open,

They want you not to judge.

Just to hear them.

To hear them and for the space to be safe.

And again,

I cannot,

Except for repeating it over and over again,

I cannot stress enough how much work that takes.

So what I'd like to ask our listeners at this point,

If you're in a relationship now,

Do you feel that it's a circle,

A true circle of creativity?

You feel that it's a bond of trust?

You feel that you are both comfortable in making yourself completely known to your partner?

And does your partner really feel comfortable making themselves known to you?

That's the first question I would ask.

It is so important.

And by the way,

There's no embarrassment in saying we're trying and we failed because I know that I try and I fail and our desire is to grow in this area.

But if the trust and what they refer to as the circle of creativity is not growing stronger,

Then it's diminishing.

Well,

I want to give you an example of a couple I actually worked with that is the opposite of what we're trying to achieve here.

And I think often it's important to point that out as well.

So you get a really clear idea of,

OK,

This is what it should like and this is really what it shouldn't look like.

So they're married for many years and the wife was often frustrated in relationships.

She wanted him to succeed financially.

Emotionally,

He also was a bit stunted.

He couldn't find consistent work and certainly not work that he was very good at or happy in doing.

And he couldn't pay off any of his debts that he had accumulated actually prior to their marriage.

So eventually her frustration turned to anger.

And by the way,

She was aware of this situation.

It's not like this was all new.

However,

When we're entering relationships,

We tend to overemphasize the positive and de-emphasize the negative at the beginning anyway.

And then this is an example.

Towards the end that flips.

This completely flipped.

Exactly.

So she became very angry.

The domestic dialogue changed from supportive at the beginning to denigrating.

And she would often yell things like,

You're such a loser.

She'd curse at him.

She'd say a lot of other things.

And not a circle of creativity.

No,

Definitely not.

Now,

She obviously and then she'd feel horrible about herself for judging him and berating him and belittling him.

So of course,

Through this process,

She was absolutely destroying the circle of creativity.

So we all start with that kind of safety.

I think when we're especially in the dating phase or it's the illusion of there's always layers.

It's a surface level,

Right?

Yeah.

I again,

I'm sure it's like,

Is it written in chalk or is it actually carved into the ground?

How deep is the circle?

I would assume that most people will admit that in the first week,

Month,

Year,

Two years,

Three years of a marriage or relationship,

You are not often completely making yourself known to your partner and your partner isn't necessarily at 100% comfortable.

No,

We're highlighting the best parts of ourselves,

Right?

And we're really covering up all the rest.

But what she did here is,

So now the circle is broken and he didn't feel safe to try and to fail or to stand up and to fall and stand up again.

And he wasn't able to thrive.

So not only did they have financial worries,

But on top of it,

They had a broken relationship and actually they were not able to recover from that because it was time and time and time again.

And when you don't feel safe,

When you don't feel supported,

When you don't feel like you can just be you and be authentic and be vulnerable,

Then you even start to shut down even more.

There's no creativity,

There's no trust,

There's no growth,

There's no change.

Absolutely.

And I think it's so important to realize that,

You know,

There,

I think there are the word that often comes to mind is that a spiritual relationship is a conscious relationship where you're thinking about these ideas.

And again,

Not always perfect and failing at times,

But you're striving towards them.

And when you understand that creating that circle of creativity is one of the most fundamental aspects.

So you might be lying to yourself by saying,

Oh,

We have a good marriage,

You know,

I'm off working,

My husband's off working.

And you know,

We had now our kids and we have our house that we built and so on and so many positive things.

It's true,

We don't interact that much or I can't tell him all the truth about myself or he doesn't desire even to make himself known to me in this way.

Again,

There are always going to be the anomalies.

If this is not something you're working on,

And not something you're conscious of,

The chances of your relationship lasting and not to mention thriving with the amount of fulfillment that it gives to you is almost zero.

And I can tell you,

And again,

That's where I think I just love this concept so much because it,

Again,

Is so important.

I remember I was talking to a student who was going through a difficulty in a relationship and I said to him,

And at the time there were different challenges that Monica and I were going through and I said,

You know,

I have my spiritual foundation and I am able to go through these challenges.

Not in our marriage.

Not in our marriage.

Not in our marriage.

I made it very clear.

Not in our marriage.

Outside of our marriage,

There were challenges that we were experiencing.

But I said,

I don't know that I could handle these challenges if not for the fact that thankfully our relationship is strong and growing and changing.

And this is true if you want to be successful at work,

If you want you or your wife to be successful in whatever endeavors they're doing,

This circle of creativity that needs to be both created,

Sustained and grown is so,

So important.

So really both ask yourself the question,

Does it exist?

Second question,

As important,

What am I doing and what is my partner doing to increase the level of safety,

Trust and this circle of creativity that must be,

Again,

Not only existing but growing in our relationship?

And I just had one more thing.

And again,

Speaking as the man in this conversation,

It's actually scientifically proven that it is more likely for the man to be the breaker of the circle of creativity,

Which means,

For instance,

They say when couples argue,

Usually,

Again,

And these are percentages,

The woman or the wife will match the level of anger in an argument or bring it down,

Whereas a man is more likely to either increase the level of anger in their response or stay at the same level.

So the reality is,

And again,

Not making blanket statements,

Although this is a blanket statement,

I think men often have difficulty in both understanding the importance of making themselves known emotionally to their partner and often not aware enough or conscious enough consistently of how important building this circle of creativity,

Right,

Of trust,

Of openness,

Of being known and receiving the other partner without judgment.

I think men are very sensitive.

I think that they are just not used to expressing themselves because early on when they were children most boys are given feedback that,

You know,

Boys don't cry,

You know,

They're tough.

I cry all the time.

Right.

It's funny.

Often I'll be speaking to different women and they're asking me for advice about something as it pertains to relationships and I'll use an example of something you've done.

They're like,

Well,

He's just spiritual or elevated.

And while that's true,

I think it's because you actively work on yourself,

Right?

And you take that seriously and it's a priority.

You have to.

You actually weren't like this when we first got married.

Absolutely not.

I mean,

I was,

I would hope,

A spiritual person,

But had because I spend most of my time prior to that studying,

I mean,

All of my time prior to that just studying and pursuing my spiritual growth,

That the importance of opening myself up emotionally and even receiving from you your openness was certainly not something that was natural.

You're good at individual sports,

Not group sports.

Look at that analogy.

Yes.

I really appreciate the fact that we had that really through your often support,

We have been able to create that.

And the reality is that a lot of the different challenges that we went through together,

Again,

Not within our marriage,

But outside of it,

Whether it's with Josh,

Our son was born with Down syndrome and other challenges that came into our lives.

I think that also,

Of course,

Helped in opening me up to both desiring,

Needing and appreciating the creation of that powerful,

Supportive circle of creativity.

And then I really like this idea too,

Because I don't want people to think it has to always be deep and heavy.

And the circle of creativity is really simply allowing yourself to just be.

I remember a friend of mine pointed this out to me,

And now I think about it as a really great example,

But you and I,

We never tell each other what we should do,

Right?

We'll give suggestions.

We'll say what we think could be nice,

But we never say,

You know,

You should do this or this is the right thing to do or that's the wrong thing to do.

We really changed that dynamic in our relationship.

Firstly,

I don't like being spoken to that way.

I was raised as I've shared with you in a home where there was a lot of guilt and regret and you know,

Why didn't you do this?

You should have done that.

You're never going to be able to do that again.

And I remember when we first got married,

You know,

The first time you said the first couple of times you're like,

You know,

Monica,

You really should.

I remember just like my eyes rolled over in my head and I just,

I completely shut down.

I wasn't interested and I would get angry at you only when I could realize why it was a trigger for me.

I shared it with you and actually you never did it again after that.

But anyway,

My friend was telling me that she's,

She's noticed this exchange between the two of us.

I'll say something like,

Honey,

I'm so tired.

I don't like giving this class tomorrow morning,

Right?

You've heard me say something like that in the back of my mind.

Of course,

I'm thinking that canceling at the last minute would be completely irresponsible,

Which is why I'm deflecting the decision onto you,

Which I'm not really,

But this is the banter we have.

Right.

And you would reply.

How would you think reply?

Sure.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Sure.

Whatever you think.

And we would go back and forth like this and I'll say,

Really,

Can I cancel?

And what would you say?

Sure.

Cancel if you're really tired.

Right.

So of course you're smiling the whole time during the exchange like you are right now.

And I know what the right thing to do is.

And you know that I know and you know I'm going to do it.

But giving me the freedom to choose makes me feel loved unconditionally.

It allows me to be vulnerable and reminds me that I'm in a relationship that's supportive,

Empathetic and leaves me room to grow as a person and as a wife while still making your opinion clear to me.

So that's what that looks.

And it's something it's super light,

Right?

It's not a big deal.

This conversation is really.

But it's it's that kind of energy,

That kind of exchange that will exist when you have a relationship that operates on this level.

And again,

I know you said you want to shy away from making people think it's heavy and it takes too much work.

It takes a lot of work initially.

I think that,

You know,

I know you have and I know I have seen too many failed relationships where where this is not something that was focused on.

And and I just don't know.

And again,

Every one of our listeners is a different place,

Both in their understanding of relationships and if they're in a relationship,

You know how much work they're investing in it.

But the reality is that there's very few things in our lives that will bring us as much joy,

Fulfillment and support that we need going through life than our relationship.

But whether you like hearing it or not,

Whether I like doing it or not at times,

Unless I'm conscious of of our relationship,

Conscious of of growth and change,

I would say,

But most importantly,

Really catching ourselves,

Either enabling the growth of a safe circle of creativity or,

You know,

What are the things that I'm doing that is either hindering that or or hurting that you have to be conscious all the time.

And again,

I know we're all busy.

We have work and we have family and we have kids and we have responsibilities and we have friends.

But this can't wait.

This is something that cannot be put on the back burner.

I think,

Though,

By the way,

For all of our listeners out there,

When you're watching those romantic love stories and the films and all the things that we watch growing up that makes us create these love stories in our head that we're chasing,

If you want to actually live what it is you're seeing on film or hearing and song or reading and poems,

It's this.

Right.

I wish that those movies would talk about the circle of creativity.

Of course,

That wouldn't make for great entertainment.

However,

The pictures that you're viewing,

The things that you're fantasizing about,

You can have that relationship,

But it does require this kind of work.

And it's hard work,

But doesn't mean that it's painful work.

It just means it's something you have to consistently do,

Which the funny thing is,

And every other part of your life,

If you want to be successful,

You know you're going to put in the work.

You're going to put in the hours,

Right?

You're going to do it at your job.

You're going to do it at the gym.

You're going to do it even as a parent,

Right?

Because those are things that are really clear to you.

You get a baby,

Baby's born,

And they completely depend and rely on you.

Well,

If you look at your relationship in the same way that your happiness,

Your partner's happiness is dependent on how much energy you put into it,

Cultivating it,

Nurturing it,

Growing it,

Then you'd be much more successful at it.

Yeah.

And I think that's a lot,

Which I think is such an important point,

That we don't assume that we'll be good at anything without either learning about it and actually practicing it in every other area of our lives.

But somehow we have writ large come to the thought that,

Oh,

I'll get into a relationship with somebody that I find really attractive,

And I really love whatever that means in the first week,

Month,

Year,

Whatever.

And then it will glide to romantic,

Everlasting love.

Impossible.

Yeah,

It's a cherished illusion.

I do.

I have a chapter in my book,

Rethink Love,

About what it takes to be great at anything.

And it's based on Malcolm Gladwell's book,

Outliers,

Where he did a lot of research.

And he said to be good at anything takes 10,

000 hours,

Which equates to 10 years.

And so in my book,

I write about,

OK,

When you first get married and have that first big argument,

You're like,

I don't understand what happened here.

I don't deserve this.

I'm a good wife.

Well,

No,

You're not.

You've been married for a day or a week.

Exactly.

But we misunderstand that.

And that's back to the ego,

How it gets involved.

But if you really want to be a successful partner,

It's going to take consistent,

Unwavering effort for 10 years.

Right.

To be clear,

Not to be married for 10 years,

But to be practicing good marriage for 10 years.

Exactly.

And most people actually only start to focus on their relationship in the seventh year of their marriage because it starts to feel bad then a little bit.

And by that point,

There's so much water under the bridge.

There's a lot of resentment usually.

And often,

You know,

It's it's a bit hard at that point to turn it around.

Right.

That's why it's so important,

Again,

For those listeners of ours that are in a either loving relationship or in a marriage or in partnership now,

Especially if everything is going well,

Now is the time to do this work,

Because the problem,

The big problems or some of the problems start coming into the relationship that might it might be too late.

But I also do want to say something else,

Which is,

I think,

Both inspiring and exciting.

Every one of our listeners,

Every single there's no person in this world.

Well,

Two partners in this world that can create an amazing,

Thriving and fulfilling relationship if they both are invested in making it grow and investing the work that's necessary for it.

So I think that's,

You know,

I don't want to make it sound too lofty,

Like you often say,

Because the reality is every single person in the world deserves and came to this world to have a partnership,

A marriage,

A relationship that will be growing and giving them great joy and love throughout their lives.

But you have to be investing the time,

The effort and the work.

It's your birthright.

Right.

Absolutely.

I do want to talk about one other very powerful idea that is related to this exact thing we're talking about,

And it's how to achieve the relationship you want.

And I'm sure some of you probably have heard about it's about being emotionally intelligent.

I've worked with couples,

Some couples who are high on the emotionally intelligent spectrum in terms of the relationship.

It means understanding and taking responsibility for our feelings and the situations we find ourselves in.

When you're an emotionally intelligent person,

You use your emotions as data.

This data unearths the root sources of sadness,

Anger,

Frustration,

And why emotions change and escalate seemingly without warning.

Now if we're talking about emotional intelligence just as an individual,

We can navigate that somewhat,

Right?

But now throw into the mix a partner while we're talking about all these ideas and it can get really complicated if you're not emotionally intelligent.

And you're referring to being emotionally intelligent about your own emotions or about your partner's emotions?

So first and foremost,

You need to be emotionally intelligent with your own emotions because if you're not aware of what you think,

Feel,

What makes you angry,

Sad,

What your triggers are,

Dealing with your childhood,

Your past,

How you arrived to where you are and who you are.

Imagine you haven't done any of that work and then you enter a relationship and then you expect for your partner to read your mind,

Understand how you feel,

Do things for you without you even having to express what they are because you're not comfortable with saying what you want.

It's a recipe for absolute disaster,

Right?

Right.

I was going to say again,

I know we're trying to shy away from the word work,

But the reality is in your experience,

What percentage of people are emotionally intelligent even on their own emotions?

Very few.

I mean really 10% if you haven't done the work.

And then how many couples are emotionally intelligent about each other?

Probably even less.

Yeah,

I would say less.

So again,

Accepting that this is a foundational element of a powerful relationship,

Then let me and you and all of our listeners really accept that this needs to be a conscious effort to be emotionally intelligent about ourselves and about our partners.

But it's so amazing.

Like the example I gave earlier of the should have,

Right?

You should do this.

You shouldn't do that.

You,

I'm emotionally intelligent with myself.

So I knew that that was a trigger for me,

Right?

Because we are an emotionally intelligent couple,

I was able to express to you what that did for me when you would say those things because you are also emotionally intelligent with me.

You're able to respond quickly,

Right?

So this is a formula.

These are tools for you to take shortcuts on how to actually get the relationship that you want.

So emotionally intelligent couples,

Right?

So now we'll talk about couples,

Keep their negative thoughts and feelings about each other,

Which all couples have.

Okay.

I'm not going to sugar coat that.

Except me.

Right?

From overwhelming their positive ones.

To be emotionally intelligent in a relationship is to know each other's worlds in great detail,

Starting from childhood to current experiences.

It means you know your partner's history even before you were in the picture,

Even their exes,

Right?

There's some things that couples don't want to speak about,

But it's going to limit how deep and how connected you can be.

There's a lot of things that people try to hide from one another.

But do you think it's important?

I mean,

This is an interesting question.

Do you think it's important for,

It might be a little bit off topic,

But do you think it's important for couples to know all the details about all the exes?

If it affected you,

If it hurt you,

If it impacted you.

I know a couple.

Okay.

So I think,

Sorry,

I didn't cut you off,

But I think it's from my understanding,

I just understood what you just said because when I first heard that,

What I thought was I need to know about every time you work together and so on and so forth.

That's not what you're talking about.

If there were powerful emotional experiences,

Right?

If an ex,

For instance,

Cheated on you or if an ex did something that has impacted you emotionally.

Right.

But you don't need to know all the details of every previous relationship.

Because I'm going to,

Again,

Thinking,

Just thinking out loud here,

That can be a source of friction.

It could also be a source of jealousy,

Unnecessary jealousy.

I'm not saying compare them to the ex.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

It's what you just said,

That if it's something that impacted you,

Affected you in some way and that you still carry,

Right?

That's your emotional intelligence.

I do know a couple though that they were married.

He knew she had been with many men before.

He did not want to know about it when they weren't married.

Years into the marriage.

One day he decided now he wanted to know because there were other issues now going on in the relationship and when she told him,

He just couldn't get past the number and it created even more problems because now she felt shame,

Right?

And she hadn't before yet.

She had hidden that part of herself.

So I don't think that you,

Maybe that's a different topic,

Right?

I don't think that you hide things about yourself.

I think you need to be able to reveal the deepest parts of you and for the other person to accept it.

Again,

Just as it relates to exes,

We've both spoken to couples where that becomes a very strong source of friction,

Right?

So I think we're saying that it's not necessary to know the details of every prior relationship,

But if you're emotionally intelligent,

You know the times and the situations and the relationships that cause either a great pain or any other type of deep emotional reality,

Right?

Yes.

Yes.

Because even if you think about what trauma does to the body,

It leaves an imprint,

Right?

So I think that expressing those things is a very healthy thing to have with your partner.

It's also knowing each other's feelings about your respective bosses.

For instance,

These are just examples.

Or if you visit your spouse at work,

You would recognize the receptionist.

You know where the coffee machine is located.

You know where they hide the creamer.

You would never tease your husband for instance about his lack of athleticism.

If he had been,

For example,

Labeled the fat kid growing up and worked very hard to overcome his weight challenges.

You basically learn what shaped them into the people they are today and into the person that you fell in love with.

Because the thing is,

When you first get together,

We ask so many questions.

We really are curious to know everything about the person.

You're so excited.

It's romantic.

You love them so much,

You want to know every detail.

And then at some point in the relationship,

We stop asking questions.

And that's really dangerous.

That's a very important point,

Right?

Because and again,

Not to be too harsh on men,

But I do think that often it is a quality of many men to not appreciate the importance of really creating that emotional map of their partner.

And I think one of the things that I've,

You know,

We're blessed to be married 23 years and thriving,

But I get excited when I learn something new about you.

And thankfully,

Monica is so interesting.

There's always something new to learn.

But the reality is,

Again,

I ask all of our listeners to stop and ask that question.

Am I discovering new things about my partner,

Whether I'm with them for five years or for 10 years or for 50 years,

Am I really taking the time to know their emotional map more completely?

And that is the only way to really have a thriving relationship.

It's one of those things because life gets so busy.

And we often have to reset in our own relationship because,

You know,

We have so many responsibilities in work and with family and children and so on that it's often,

Especially when things seem to be going well in a relationship where you say,

Okay,

We just don't have the time,

You know,

Once a week,

Twice a week to sit down and really go more deeply into our emotional experiences of that day of that week.

But it is so important.

It is so important.

And like you said,

It's unfortunate that often as relationships get started,

That's when the curiosity is really,

Really at its highest and sharing to most degrees is at its highest when in reality it should be,

Yes,

Very strong then,

But even stronger five years in and 10 years in and we should making sure we're remaining curious and we're desiring to get even a more full picture of our partners.

Dr.

John Gottman,

You know,

I love his work.

He posits that the opposite of an emotionally intelligent couple is a disengaged couple,

Right?

That sounds very unpleasant.

Unfortunately,

You've seen many of those.

And those couples are marked by the absence of positive effect during conflict,

No interest,

Affection,

Humor,

Or empathy.

During conflict you said?

A perfect example of this is when your partner is stressed or acting odd and you have no idea why so you take it personally.

We've seen that a lot.

Sometimes you think it's either something you've done or said and sometimes you just literally have no idea.

Well,

I remember early in our marriage,

This is before we were emotionally intelligent and we had an argument and it was so long ago,

I can't even really remember the specifics,

But what I do remember is that you said,

That's just crazy.

And you didn't call me crazy,

But you used crazy in the sentence in relation to me and I became enraged.

Now,

I just want to say that that is an odd reaction,

Right?

To something very innocuous that you said,

And it wasn't the worst insult either,

Right?

But at that point we weren't emotionally intelligent.

You knew my uncle was schizophrenic,

But you didn't know how that had impacted me as a child.

At that time,

You also didn't know that that was one of my greatest childhood fears that I would somehow suffer his fate.

So when you said that,

I heard you call me crazy.

And to your credit though,

Once I explained this to you,

When we did become more communicative,

You never said the word crazy in an argument.

Again,

In fact,

We don't even use that word in our house,

But that's just an example of how a couple who's not emotionally intelligent,

Where that would go.

Right.

And again,

I think it's so important being honest about where we were in the beginning of our relationship.

Certainly I,

If you asked me the day that we were married,

Am I in love?

I would say absolutely yes.

When you asked me then,

Do you have a understanding of Monica's emotional map?

I really wouldn't know what you were talking about.

And if you asked me,

Is it important for you to know it?

I probably would not have seen any importance in it.

So I think that,

You know,

Again,

Wherever you are in your relationship,

You know,

Take the opportunity to at least awaken a consciousness of the importance of growing your understanding of your partner,

Especially the emotional map of your partner.

And wouldn't you say we were so much happier once we went there,

We were so much,

We felt accepted.

And I don't even think you knew that you wanted that,

Right?

You weren't even aware that that was something that would be nice or that you needed.

It's almost like,

You know,

On one level,

If you're not emotionally intelligent,

If you're not really focused on creating a circle of creativity,

As we spoke before,

You're you're even if you're in love,

You're in a relationship with a shell.

And hopefully,

And this is really what we're talking about,

As time goes on,

And you're investing the effort and the conversations and the time,

You actually fall in love with a more full version of the person you're with.

And it's almost like,

You know,

Like,

I love 2% of you,

Whatever that number is,

When we first got married,

Hopefully today,

I love,

I know and love 80% of you or whatever that number is,

And you will continue to grow and change and I'll love more of you and more of you and more of you.

So I actually,

In a beautiful way,

Get to love more of you,

As we open up more and more to each other.

And I do again,

I'm always thinking about how are people hearing what we're saying,

Thank God we are in a successful relationship.

And it might feel very far from where people find themselves today.

But just know this,

That when you share your past fears,

Traumas,

And embarrassments,

It does require a vulnerability and an openness,

Which also is another word that gets really bad rap,

It sounds very unpleasant,

And uncomfortable.

And it's not easy,

I understand that.

But when you open yourself up to your partner in this way,

You create a safe space where you both become stronger together,

Stronger than you could ever be apart.

And that is the strength,

The beauty,

The purpose,

Really one of the purposes of having a relationship.

Emotional intelligence gives way to an even deeper facet of the relationship.

It's the active ingredient for self revelation,

Which for me has always been something that I've wanted.

The more you get to know somebody,

Assuming you feel safe and understood,

The more you start revealing about yourself.

In a successful relationship,

Both partners make themselves known,

Gradually disclosing their innermost selves,

Divulging their desires,

Which again,

A lot of people don't do in relationships,

Their fears,

Their fantasies,

Their dreams,

And even those things that don't show them in a favorable light.

This is what it means to arrive.

And this is what it means to belong.

And this is the best feeling when you get here in the world.

Personality is opening yourself up to the possibility of being physically or emotionally wounded.

Again,

That's why it sounds unappealing,

Even terrifying,

But at its best,

It creates a deep connection that when you walk in a room,

You know what the person is thinking just by looking at them.

So being a vulnerable,

And we talked about choices at the beginning,

Right?

Being vulnerable isn't a choice because you're already vulnerable every single day of your life.

Think about it.

Right.

But you do,

Again,

Going back to the ego,

I think our ego,

And this is true by the way,

Not only in relationships,

But certainly necessary in relationships,

Our ego tells us,

No,

I want everybody to think only that I'm only doing the right thing all the time.

But if you're honest with yourself,

You know that that's absolutely never going to be the case.

Of course.

But really,

And again,

Not to beat up on men again,

But I can speak for myself at least,

That becoming vulnerable is both something that I didn't appreciate the importance of.

And maybe even more,

I would say,

I thought that being vulnerable,

You know,

Opening yourself up in this way to your partner or to the world,

You know,

Can have a negative effect because people are going to think less of me and so on.

But like you said,

And I think it's so important,

Especially those of us who want to have a thriving relationship,

Be vulnerable,

Become vulnerable.

And the other side of this is make sure that it continues to be exceedingly safe for your partner to be vulnerable for you.

I think these are the steps,

Right?

If we look at everything we talked about today,

I think you start with the idea of the,

You know,

The creating a circle of creativity.

I think then there's emotional intelligence that's a component.

And then I think ultimately you're able to be more vulnerable.

And just know this,

Know this as you're listening to us,

You can achieve the life that you want,

The relationship you want.

It just means that you first do all the things we spoke about today for yourself first and foremost,

And then you bring that to your relationship.

Absolutely.

And I would say my final thought on this is the understanding that every single person in this world is meant to and can have an amazing relationship.

As a matter of fact,

It's necessary for our most elevated life to have a partnership with somebody who,

With whom you have a circle of creativity,

With whom you can be vulnerable,

Whom you both know their emotional map and they know yours.

And as I said before,

If you asked me on the first day of our marriage or the first day that we dated,

Do I love Monica?

There wasn't a day that I would have said,

No,

I don't love her greatly,

Certainly on the day of our marriage.

But 23 years later,

As I look back at whatever I thought my love was,

It was a tiny fraction of real and true and lasting love.

And my hope is that 23 years from now,

Even though today I do truly feel great love towards Monica that I will tell you in 23 years,

The love that I thought that I felt 23 years ago is greatly diminished by the love that I experience now.

As long as Monica and myself continue investing the time,

The work,

The care,

The removal of the ego to grow our emotional connection,

Our circle of creativity.

In every marriage,

And I think in ours certainly,

It evolved into something stronger,

Right?

It was strong,

But it evolved in something stronger,

More tender and more intimate.

I think that's the idea that whatever it is that you feel now,

Assuming you're in a happy relationship,

It can be stronger and deeper and better.

And if you are in a relationship that doesn't have these things,

I think it's time to reassess where you're at and where you want to be 10 years from now.

Wherever you find yourself,

If it's tolerable now.

Even if it's good now,

Especially if it's good now.

Especially if it's good now.

It's going to go one way or the other.

Absolutely.

So thank you for joining us.

And again,

We are overwhelmed really and appreciative of that literally thousands and thousands of people all over the world listening to this podcast only 12 episodes in.

So we appreciate all of our listeners and we really hope that what we're sharing is bringing some positive change,

Some light,

Some inspiration into your life.

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Five star reviews and beautifully written reviews so that other people will be inspired as well to listen and also to continue sending us questions to Monica and Michael,

Monica,

A and D Michael at kabala.

Com.

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