16. Great Love 2: How Challenges & Fighting Can Bring Us Closer

Often,

It's from the mistakes that we make,

If we're willing to learn from them and come together after them,

It's actually one of the greatest ways relationships grow.

I think fighting is very healthy.

I think conflict is very healthy because,

First of all,

Then you know that both people care in the relationship.

We're both alive,

We're both passionate about something,

We have opinions.

If they're just protecting their feelings,

Then everything is going to be uncomfortable.

One of the reasons you go into a challenge is because there's an opening for your relationship to become even stronger at this point.

One of the most important indications about whether you've repaired,

And more importantly,

Whether your relationship is built on a foundation that can handle necessary conflict,

Is how quickly you recover.

It's okay to just be you,

Flaws and all.

If you chose to marry a person in a long-term relationship,

What's the point of the exercise?

What's the point of going through all of that?

If not even in this space or this place,

Can you be yourself?

Welcome to the Spiritually Hungry podcast episode 16.

So we are going to revisit the topic of relationships.

That was very popular and being that we've been married 24 years and happy,

We feel excited to talk about this topic.

Yes,

I'm actually excited to spend some time with you talking about relationships in general.

A little bit about our own,

I'm sure we'll come in.

And by the way,

Did you prepare a question?

I always have questions.

No,

No,

No.

A surprise question for me.

We'll be surprised when I figure that out.

I'll take that as a no.

I have one for you,

But okay.

You have to think about it now.

Don't underestimate me,

Honey.

What I do want to start with though is something that I wrote in my book,

Rethink Love.

And by the way,

If any one of our listeners has not yet gotten their copy of Rethink Love,

I strongly recommend going to Amazon right away.

You can pause the podcast,

Go to Amazon,

Order the book and then come back.

Is it because you're in the book?

Am I in the book?

He's read it,

Right?

Okay.

So in an interview,

A famous classical cellist who had been playing at the highest level for 50 years remarked,

It's strange in 10 or 15 minutes,

I could tell you everything I know about playing the instrument,

But it would be of little use to you.

It's taken me a lifetime to discover these things.

No matter what I tell you,

I have no doubt that it would take you a lifetime as well.

Now,

I don't claim to have mastered the art of love the way this musician has mastered the cello,

But I do believe that some of the most important principles in life and love can be stated simply,

Much more so than putting them into practice.

So I'm- I think that's always true.

And it's interesting,

Just last night we had an opportunity to talk to many of our students.

We always had an opportunity to talk.

Yes.

Getting tired of my own voice.

Really?

No,

Maybe not.

I'm not.

I'm sure listeners are not.

And I was reflecting on a teaching that my father spoke about,

And this is,

Again,

Over 23 years ago.

And he was talking about the fact that really the whole purpose of a spiritual life,

And it's always to get distracted,

But he said the only purpose to be spiritual,

The only purpose to follow any spiritual practice is to be an individual who is awakening more and more love in his or her life and the lives of those around them.

And when I shared that,

And I know it's true for me,

It's so easy to say that.

It's so easy to hear that.

But to live it consistently is probably the most difficult thing.

It's work.

It's absolute work.

And it's true.

Like you said,

I think it's true for absolutely anything that's important,

Any true life lesson.

It's going to be something that's going to be relatively easy,

Relatively simple to hear.

To understand.

And even to understand and accept.

Very difficult to practice.

Very,

Very difficult.

One of my favorite,

Sorry.

Well,

No,

I think that's why a lot of people don't do it.

They're like,

Yeah,

I know that.

And they actually don't take it seriously enough.

Yeah.

One of my favorite Kabbalists,

He's an Italian Kabbalist.

He wrote a whole book,

A very fundamental and important book,

And he writes in the introduction,

He says,

Moshe Chaim Lutzato.

And he said,

I am not going to write anything new that you don't know in this book.

He said,

But because you know it so well,

You don't live it.

And I think this is so true,

And especially again,

As we hope to be inspiring ourselves and our listeners to be growing in their relationship,

Growing both individually as a partner in the relationship and therefore hopefully growing their relationship.

The idea of both focus and practice.

What we know in our mind,

What we feel in our heart and what we actually live can often be so distant from each other.

A thousand percent.

And there's a few things that I do want to talk about that I think will help because I think I've counseled a lot of couples and often I get more resistance from men in doing couples work.

They don't mind one on one.

They enjoy that.

But somehow when it's like the work of talking about things,

They think it's going to be fighting and stretching up the past.

And it's distinctly unpleasant.

And they know it's going to be work.

Yes.

But I think that part of what I want to talk about today is how to make the work fun.

But before I get to that,

I want to share a secret with you.

I don't think we have any secrets.

I think it's going to be a secret to you.

But maybe to our listeners.

When I got married,

I thought I was the perfect wife.

Me too.

And you still do.

Yes,

I do.

I'm a Virgo and we usually aim for perfection.

So seeing myself as less than accomplished in this area just wasn't an option because I'd done such an excellent job in finding the right person to spend my life with.

Naturally,

I was also right about what it meant to be a good wife.

And I only realized how naive that was years later.

Michael,

When we first got married,

Did you think you were a great husband?

In honest.

.

.

I didn't think you gave a thought.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

I thought I was a good person,

A spiritual person.

But I think this is the biggest problem is that most of us don't even ask that question.

Am I a good husband?

And the answer of course should be,

Like you've always said,

How could I possibly be a great husband?

I had never done this before.

And even if you're in a marriage for one year,

Well,

I've only been doing this for a year and who knows if I'm doing it well.

Because I think it's tied into self-worth.

Like you just said,

I'm a good person,

I'm a spiritual person.

Anybody should be happy to have me.

That doesn't make you a good husband.

That wouldn't make somebody a good wife,

Right?

So we make it complicated because it gets tied up in our identity somehow,

Right?

And also I think it's important to say,

Again,

Like you said,

Over 23 years,

Almost 24 years into our marriage,

I don't think that I'm the perfect husband.

And I hope you do,

But I don't.

And I want to be a better husband tomorrow and the next week and the next month and the next year.

And I know that one of the ways to make sure that our relationship continues to thrive is if you're thinking that as well.

Nobody in the world and certainly neither of us are perfect and we're going to make mistakes.

But and I have found that often it's from the mistakes that we make,

If we're willing to learn from them and come together after them,

It's actually one of the greatest ways relationships grow.

I think also we touched upon this idea in one of our talks this weekend and that I think people get very excited at the beginning of things,

At the inception of things,

Right?

A new relationship,

A new business,

Even the inception of a child,

Right?

The idea of creating a child and they put a lot of effort.

Let's say somebody had trouble conceiving and they went to every measure,

IVF and infertility treatments and then once they gave birth,

It would be ludicrous to think they would stop caring or investing in the child,

Right?

I think we understand that when it comes to- Or even more importantly,

Investing in themselves as a parent to that child.

Exactly,

Right?

But we don't,

For whatever reason,

As a culture,

We put a lot of emphasis- In the beginning.

In the beginning of things.

And we don't go back and keep checking in with ourselves to,

Why did we want the relationship?

Why did we want the child or children?

Why did we want this business?

And because I wanted it so badly,

Am I making sure that I'm showing up as the best version of myself in all of these things that I have now created,

Right?

We tend to,

It's like off our checklist,

Right?

And we think that we'll just coast through now.

The hard part,

Falsely we believe this,

The hard part was finding it or creating it,

Not investing in it.

That's so important.

Again,

I would ask all of our listeners right now to ask themselves the question,

What am I doing?

Even if the marriage,

The relationship is going swimmingly right now,

What am I doing today to become a better husband,

To become a better wife,

To become a better spouse or a partner?

Because if you're not asking that question- Then you're not.

Forget it.

Forget it.

You're not doing it.

Right.

Forget it.

I also think another thing that's interesting is that we grew up with shows that created a vivid picture in our minds of what relationships or marriages are,

Right?

Because we didn't come up with these and we didn't find ourselves where we're at,

Right?

This investment or non-investment in relationships from nowhere.

Everything's impressed upon us through our own experiences or things that we see or watch.

So remember June Cleaver?

No,

I do not.

Well,

I don't either,

But you knew the show.

I've heard of it.

Have you ever watched it?

No,

But I knew that.

But why do I know the show for this exact reason?

I knew that Mrs.

Cleaver was just- By the way,

I grew up in Israel in the younger ages and in Israel at the time there was one TV channel.

And if you were lucky and we lived in Jerusalem at the time,

You can get Jordanian television.

They had a few more- They had Mrs.

Cleaver on there.

They did an instrument,

Very few options of TV shows to watch.

But yeah.

Well,

So maybe I shouldn't be having this conversation with you.

Do you remember Mrs.

Brady?

Yes.

Okay,

Right.

I think I started watching that once we moved here a little bit later.

Yeah,

I don't think that was on the Palestinian show either.

I don't think it was on the Jordanian,

But yeah.

And Mrs.

Walton.

Nope.

And it was like,

Leave it to- Beaver?

Beaver.

I've heard of it.

I haven't watched it.

Okay,

My point is that was one model of what a house,

A family,

A home should look like.

And then later it was Peg Bundy.

But by the way,

Again- Which I actually remember Peg Bundy.

And also Edith Bunker.

Oh,

Yes.

Yes.

But my question is,

In many of those,

It wasn't about the relationship between the husband and the wife,

Except when I had been married with children.

They were smiling.

Yes.

And when he came home from work- There was no work.

.

.

.

She was outside waiting for him.

Was there any work on the relationship?

And there was dinner cooked and they were just so happy and there was no challenge,

No conflict,

No issues,

No infidelity.

I mean,

The list,

Should I keep going?

And then later we saw the opposite in these other TV shows,

Right?

Which were really in the 90s.

That's what we grew up watching.

The problem is that first they both had different views of marriage clearly,

But both models set us up for failure,

Right?

One with standards too high and one with standards too low.

There's never been.

.

.

And by the way,

We're talking about television,

Right?

But I don't think many have had healthy examples or role models,

Most likely not in their own home.

And not even if you look at presidents or.

.

.

This is not an area that is really explored in this way.

Right.

And therefore worked on,

Right?

The work that must go into.

And my point is that we have to throw away our misconceptions about a relationship is in order to embrace what they can be,

Right?

I think that people don't ever push that envelope of where can I take the relationship?

How should it evolve?

We're meant to love each other more every year,

Not just learn to tolerate each other,

Right?

I think it's just to really break open what is it that you want from your relationship and what do you think is possible to achieve?

Right.

And I think,

Again,

It goes back to the idea of.

.

.

And again,

I don't use the word work too much,

But I think there's many people and I think maybe men more than women,

I'm sure there's some science on this,

That they don't even think too deeply about what they really.

.

.

As long as everybody's happy on some level,

But to go deeper,

The question has to be,

Do I know my partner in a deeper way this time?

I don't know,

How many couples really ask each other?

I have asked you.

You asked me,

Are you happy?

And do they ask themselves,

Am I happy?

I think it's more like,

No one's complaining and you should be happy because I love you and that's enough and you have everything provided for you or I provide this for you.

I think the bar is way low.

It's possible.

I'm sure that's true for many cases.

So I think,

Again,

With these models,

We tend to believe that a successful relationship is one that is conflict free and that is challenge free and that if you're really married or your soulmate,

It's fun,

Happy all the time.

Again,

Another misconception,

Another cherished illusion that people have.

If we look at couples who survived the instability of World War II,

They had a great appreciation for each other.

When people saw people dying every day and then they went home and had their family,

It would awaken greater appreciation and therefore investment in the relationship and feeling more love.

The same thing happened with the crisis of 9-11.

It had the same effect.

It created a sense of urgency that put the relationship on the higher list in terms of priorities,

Where usually it's not.

We get busy with all the things that we're doing.

I know we've shared this before,

But when we are certain seconds in,

Josh was born with Down syndrome,

We went to visit families who had children with disabilities and I think there's a statistic,

I don't remember the number exactly,

But that when that happens as with any type of new challenge that enters into a marriage,

It either brings them further high,

It's like over 50 or something like that.

It leads to divorce or again,

Leads them to come closer together.

I think that's the idea that every one of us in our relationship and in our individual lives,

We're going to have challenges that come into our life.

The question is,

Are we conscious enough to make sure that through the challenges,

We're coming together?

Or if not,

Naturally,

Entropy will lead any couple,

Especially once the challenges enter their relationship,

To drift farther apart and eventually end in divorce.

I think the thing is most couples blame each other.

It's the closest relationship you have.

You live with each other,

You share things,

Same space,

Finances for the most part.

When something happens that's difficult or challenging,

The first thing naturally you do is blame your partner.

I tell the story in my book and it's a very light version.

It's not a traumatic situation,

But everybody knows I don't like the dentist at all.

I remember the story.

And because I feel like a failure.

Your gum is too high here and your teeth and you're not cleaning it,

Whatever.

The list is long.

I remember one incident,

I started shrinking in my chair and I was like,

Oh,

This must be Michael's fault if he took better care of his teeth.

I like how creative you are with your blame.

I really am.

It's hilarious because it's not your fault,

But what I found so interesting and fascinating,

That was like my immediate response to the disappointing news of the state of my teeth.

I think that that is what couples do and it gets dangerous later in life,

Especially when couples might have regret about their choices or where they find themselves in life.

Instead of saying,

Okay,

What can I do differently or how can I change,

They tend to put that all on their partner.

If you had been a better partner,

Then I wouldn't be in the situation.

Right.

I think also what happens is when anybody is going through stress,

Their tolerance for things that they would tolerate before goes lower.

Therefore,

When you're in your closest relationship,

You're much more likely to lash out even for things that are insignificant.

Certainly if you were not under stress,

They wouldn't be bothering you.

I think one of the important lessons or ways to grow is to make sure to really ask yourself the question if you find yourself either fighting more or blaming more,

Whether you're actually verbalizing it or just thinking it,

Blaming your partner.

Is it really,

Is that the truth or is that just my reaction to stress that I'm going through?

Also,

Everybody has a choice,

Right?

I think that in those moments when big things happen or even things that are smaller that are just disappointing,

Like a dentist visit,

You have to stop and ask yourself,

What am I choosing in this moment?

Do I want to choose to blame my partner or blame something external?

Do I want to choose to see what is first the opportunity for me or how can I actually grow from this?

I mean,

Even when Josh was born,

Really it could have completely torn us apart,

But instead we leaned into each other and we became more vulnerable than we had ever been.

There are parts of myself that I hadn't shown you and it wasn't even conscious.

I didn't consciously hide anything from you,

But I had the belief- It was raw.

It was a raw time,

Right?

I had the belief system before this has happened that,

And again,

It wasn't something that I was fully aware of,

But that I am strong and I never need to rely on anybody because it's something that I adapted when I was younger.

I survived my childhood by that and I'll never be let down.

I can only rely on myself.

When this happened with Josh,

My first reaction I think was still that,

Right?

Then I didn't have the choice because I was so fragile,

So raw and it only happened to us,

Right?

In that moment,

I thought,

Okay,

We're the only two people that Josh was born to.

Although many offered empathy and many tried to be there,

It happened to us.

In that moment,

I chose you and I chose us.

It was definitely a choice.

It's not something that we got lucky with.

I think the other important element is that we don't realize how fragile a relationship is.

When I say fragile,

Again,

Even though so many marriages end in divorce,

Many of those marriages that don't end in divorce don't progress towards greater connection and a thriving relationship.

I think we either take for granted our partner or the marriage relationship itself.

You know,

Pat,

I think it really starts with the self.

I think that people don't realize how fragile individuals are.

Most relationships,

Where it starts,

Where the breakdown begins is that,

Well,

We talked about ego many times,

But also I think that people are not aware of the stories in their own head and the movies in their own head.

Therefore,

They can't articulate when something upsets them or hurts them or how they feel about a challenge or maybe they feel that it's their fault,

But they don't want to admit it,

Right?

There's all these unsaid things.

Unless you make the choice to completely be vulnerable with one another,

Even though that's very uncomfortable and choose the relationship,

Like you said,

You know it's fragile.

But I think that's where people really get stuck.

That's an important point,

Right?

So you're saying that if you're still trying,

Either because you're unaware of the true nature of where your emotions are coming from.

And how do you feel about what this horrible thing that just happened?

So either your ego says,

Okay,

I'm going to protect myself and hide it and not bring it and not be vulnerable in that way,

Then what you have to do is in some way have conflict with your partner because I'm not willing to show or don't have a desire to show the true rawness of my emotions right now.

So what do I have to do?

I have to put up a wall.

So in one way or another,

That's going to manifest as friction in their relationship.

So the challenges,

Right,

Then this really segues into the other topic I want to talk about,

Which is how do you handle conflict?

I have a chapter in my book called Spiritual Sparring.

I think fighting is very healthy.

I think conflict is very healthy because first of all,

Then you know that both people care in the relationship,

Are both alive,

Are both passionate about something,

We have opinions.

And I think like you said,

If they're just protecting their feelings and they're hurt or whatever it is,

Then everything is going to be uncomfortable.

I didn't want to have a conversation about anything,

Right?

They just avoid it and shut it off completely.

And what I would say to our listeners,

And I know that we,

Again,

Not perfect,

But we try to practice this,

That the reality is that when you are raw with your partner and really open up your emotions as much as you can,

That actually brings you closer.

There are very few things,

I believe,

And I know in practicality in our relationship,

That have brought us closer than those very difficult moments where either you or I have shared with the other really what we're feeling,

Like the either painful or very challenging emotional process that we're going through.

Right.

Because we just learned,

I think,

Because again,

It wasn't easy at the beginning,

Over time we learned how to do that.

But I- Yeah.

I think about a lot of couples that I've counseled,

Right?

And I've been the third person in the room where they're screaming at each other and yelling.

And from my perspective,

I can see the hurt behind the words,

Right?

I can see it with each person and they just won't go there.

And I try to get them there and sometimes I'm successful,

Sometimes they're not,

But I can see that wall they put up.

They want the other person to recognize it in them.

And if you love me,

You would know this about me,

You would see this thing.

But it's so naive and foolish because they don't even know it about themselves.

They don't have access to that in a very clear,

Strong way,

Or they would be able to express that.

Right.

So what I would really ask our listeners is to,

And again,

This is not comfortable usually,

But to take the opportunities when either if you're going through some challenge together or one of you is going through a challenge,

To really take the opportunity to be as open and vulnerable as possible because there are very few things and opportunities in a relationship to grow closer than being completely vulnerable with your partner.

And again,

Like I said,

I know this in practice with you and rather,

Again,

I would say,

I think there is that fear,

Right?

The ego says,

No,

You can't be this weak,

Right?

We see vulnerability as weak to your partner.

They won't respect you like they did before and so on and so forth.

There's so many excuses or even maybe something's valid reasons that we give to ourselves why I can't or I won't be.

I mean,

I won't open up so completely.

But by the way,

I think there's a whole step before that.

I really do believe that people expect the other person to read their minds and know,

Like if you really love me,

You would know this about me.

If you were really paying attention to all the other conversations or arguments I had,

I wouldn't have to explain it to you.

I see this not just in romantic relationships.

I even see this,

Like I'll get a text from somebody and I'm like,

Oh,

That's odd.

And then I'm like,

Okay,

Let me think about the bigger picture.

That's not really about me.

What is it that they're really not saying,

Right?

It's not what they're saying,

It's what they're not saying.

And you can tell by the way they've said what they've said,

Right?

So I think that that,

And I see this with children also,

Often they,

Because they're just starting to be emotionally intelligent if they're raised in a home that has that kind of conversation.

And it's really hard to find your voice and to advocate for yourself and say what you want and not have shame in it and speak up.

And when they're not doing it,

Because I've seen this,

This happened with some of our kids and I'll say something and then they'll get a smile on their face and they're like,

Yeah,

That's what I wanted you to know or I was trying to tell you that.

And by the way,

They weren't saying anything with words.

What were they trying to tell me?

That emotion,

Whether that feeling or that want with.

I think a lot of things in relationships is one has a want and they expect the other person to offer it and also know exactly what it is that they want.

And it's impossible.

When like you said,

Even sometimes they themselves aren't even completely aware.

But they know what they're not getting and that's hurtful and painful.

I know that even with our arguments that we've had and even now,

Like this morning.

This morning,

I remember when I was working.

I was going to approach you with something that I thought maybe we would have a hard time hearing because it was about you.

All right.

I'm not going to go into the details.

Do you want me to remind you?

No,

No,

I remember.

Okay.

That was scary for a moment.

And I said,

You know,

I really need you to hear me right now.

Just hear me.

Yeah,

Go into the details.

And then hear me and then I want to hear what you have to say about it.

But I approach it with,

This is what I'm going to offer.

I do want to hear what you have to say,

But I want to be fully heard as well.

It's a style that we've created.

We did not have this style.

It was non-existent when we first got married.

You were the silent type in our argument,

Which made me very,

Very angry.

And I was a screamer because that's what I saw both of my parents do.

That was the model I had.

So we finally came together,

I think after Josh was born.

So for the first like four or five years of our marriage,

That's really our arguments were like that.

And once we had Josh and we came on the other side of that challenge,

I remember we had the conversation that no argument or no disagreement is bigger than our commitment to one another.

And from that place,

We made that choice and we make that choice again and again.

And I think then we started having conversations like when we argue,

This doesn't feel good.

What are the ways we can do this so we'll both feel better?

It's not going to be great at first,

But we started just like trying different things until we really found our style.

Right.

And as it relates to challenges,

I really would hope that we're able to awaken within our listeners almost an excitement as it relates to what can happen to their relationship while they're going through a challenge.

Because you know,

Life has the time is when things are going smoothly.

And then those challenges.

It can be a challenge within the relationship or a challenge external to it that they're both experiencing.

One of them is experiencing really on a deeper level.

What the challenge is,

Is an opportunity to deepen the bonds of your relationship.

And you might disregard the challenge,

Get through it and then onto the next and things go back to being smooth.

But what you've actually lost is an opportunity to become stronger together.

Closer.

And by the way,

Friends.

Right.

Which I think what I want to say is I really think,

And again,

Maybe more for men than for women,

But certainly for women as well.

When you go into a challenge,

Nothing happens by coincidence.

One of the reasons you go into a challenge is because there's an opening for your relationship to become even stronger at this point.

And if you just get through it without taking the opportunity to go deeper,

Then you really miss that opportunity.

And a year later,

You might have needed that stronger bond that would have been created through that challenge had you really used it as an opportunity to come closer.

By the way,

If you don't take advantage of those moments,

You're actually not really going to be satisfied in the relationship.

You're not going to be happy with the relationship.

I think it leads to boredom and distraction and looking kind of,

Oh,

That other couple seems happy or maybe I could be happy with somebody else.

You could lose appreciation.

I think those moments come up and not only,

I mean,

They're necessary to the point of that is what's going to take your relationship to the next level and to the next level and to the next level.

It's going to deepen the friendship,

Deepen the love,

Deepen the bond.

Exactly.

And I think it's important to realize,

Again,

And often this is our reaction to what happens in life.

Even if I have some consciousness of the fact that this is a moment and a challenge that can bring us closer,

I just don't want to deal with it.

It's too much now.

Next one,

Right?

But if you really understand that in life,

You don't necessarily always get those same opportunities one after the other.

And if you don't grab the opportunity,

The next one might not come over.

The next one comes,

You might not be ready.

So to really be conscious of the joyful opportunity in the challenge and that hopefully will give us the impetus to say,

Okay,

Even though it's not comfortable,

I'm so busy with the challenge itself.

I don't even have the,

Don't think I have the energy to invest now in coming closer with my partner.

Grab the opportunity.

Don't miss the opportunity of a challenge to bring you closer together and to bond you closer.

As you're thinking,

I just thought of this analogy.

It's a little bit strange because my mind works in this way,

But it's almost like wearing a pair of shoes that are too small,

Right?

And you wear them day in and day out and you complain every now and again and then you get a blister,

You get a callous and then it gets bigger and bigger until you don't feel as much anymore and you don't even notice that they're uncomfortable.

You don't really enjoy the shoes so much,

But even have a desire for a different pair of shoes because your experience in wearing the shoes is not great or fun.

And that's what you did at some point,

You actually start thinking that's what wearing shoes feels like for everybody.

Exactly.

And it's this like dull,

Numb existence,

Right?

You just go along with it.

Whereas if you said,

Okay,

Well,

These shoes suck.

I don't want to wear them anymore.

They're tight,

They're uncomfortable.

Maybe I'll get them stretched or I'll cut a little part out of it or I'll cut the back out.

Or maybe I'll get a new pair.

Well,

Maybe,

Maybe.

But the point is,

Is that if you keep thinking about ways to make things better and to change them and not just accept mediocrity,

Then you're going to get more pleasure out of life.

You're going to get more pleasure from your experiences and you're also going to feel good about yourself.

So obviously that analogy is relationships.

And I think that you have to approach it that same way.

All of those things don't settle for something that's not great or that's not working.

I'm not saying leave the relationship.

I'm saying it's your responsibility and your birthright to be in a relationship that is nurturing and that is growing and that is evolving.

It's your responsibility to offer that and also to receive it.

I would say some of the saddest.

.

.

Did you like my little cute story?

I know.

That was really great.

I didn't know exactly where I was going.

I didn't either.

Very good then.

But some of the saddest couples we meet are the ones that are just like blah,

Right?

They're together,

They're not really fighting that much.

There isn't that much conflict but they're not passionately in love and in a thriving relationship.

They're just not enjoying themselves.

That trickles into every other aspect of your life by the way.

So again,

I think the call here is to embrace the times of challenge,

To really use it as a way to become vulnerable.

And again,

Even though it's going to be uncomfortable and not what our ego would be excited about,

To grab those opportunities because they're not coming coincidentally and they're there,

Whether they're small or great,

As an opportunity to deepen the relationship,

Which again leads to the idea of conflict.

It's interesting,

I was reading this idea,

A statistic that in marriage,

I think John Gottman speaks about this,

There's two types of he says,

And I have a little bit of a disagreement on this,

That there's two types of conflict.

That there's what he calls solvable conflicts and those that are not solvable.

And he said,

Which again,

When I read the statistic,

It's a little bit surprising,

That in his research,

Let me ask you,

What percent of conflicts in marriage do you think are solvable?

You're going to be wrong,

So don't worry about it.

I'm sure it's the exact opposite of what he said.

I would say,

I think he said,

I'm looking at us,

At 90%,

He probably said 10.

He said 69% of conflicts is not solvable.

69%,

Almost 70%,

Which is crazy.

I was going to say 10% is not.

You're saying 60,

Right,

That's the same thing.

He said almost 70% is not solvable,

Meaning it's going to be a chronic conflict throughout their marriage,

Even throughout good marriages,

Is what he was saying.

30% are solvable.

So I have a few thoughts on that,

But think about what that means as it relates to arguments and fighting.

So what's his solution then?

Well,

His solution,

Again,

He says that you really,

When you're choosing a partner,

You're actually choosing the problems you're willing to live with.

Which again,

I- But I love John Gottman's work and I actually quote him a lot in my book.

This part though,

I don't agree with.

Okay,

Neither do I,

But I want to talk about,

So like you said,

Fighting.

I think fighting,

And again,

In our relationships- Why aren't we talking about winning,

By the way?

Okay.

Oh,

No,

No,

No.

We're just talking about fighting and discussing and being heard and finding new ways that you both can be comfortable.

And sometimes,

I also think that if,

For instance,

If something was more important to you than it was to me,

And we're disagreeing about it,

Right?

I think in those times,

If it really matters more to you,

I'd give in to you and you do the same thing if something's really more important to me,

But it's not,

You don't really want to do it,

You don't see the value in it,

And maybe we're having an argument about it,

You'll agree and you'll go along with it.

That's not- Right.

But I think,

But the first thing,

Which is what you said,

Is that if you're not arguing or having,

Again,

It doesn't have to be a yelling argument,

Although those are sometimes nice,

But we've had,

I think,

Some of those.

But also,

But just a passionate conversation about things you disagree about.

It could be important,

It could be silly.

Like you said,

I think the saddest relationships are the ones where there is no disagreement,

Where there is no argument because- You just don't care.

Exactly.

To some degree.

I forgot years ago,

I heard you tell the story about a woman who,

When they stopped arguing,

She left this ringling bell?

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

What was this?

Do you remember the story?

Yeah,

They used to fight all the time.

And then I think I asked them,

Like,

Well,

How are things now?

And the husband said,

Oh,

It's good.

We don't really fight anymore.

And then I asked the wife and she's like,

I don't really care.

So what he read as things are better because we don't fight,

She was just figuring out her exit plan.

Which reminds me also to be a friend whose parents,

I don't want to be too specific so nobody can tell I'm talking about,

But whose parents,

Basically I asked him how is the marriage working?

And he said,

Well,

They're living in two separate states,

So it's going pretty well.

But that's the idea.

And the point is that,

And I want to be careful how I say this,

But if you haven't had an argument with your partner in a few weeks,

That might not necessarily be a good sign.

It might just be a sign that you're either not in each other's life enough or that you don't care enough about the relationship.

Because if you're- But I think also you need to define what argument is.

I think a lot of people have a hard time having,

They don't like to have any confrontation.

It doesn't need to be in that kind of way.

It could be a very strong conversation about what you believe.

It doesn't have to be yelling and by the way,

You should never go below the belt.

There are rules to how to fight,

But- Right.

But what I'm saying is,

Tell me if you disagree,

But I think you do agree,

Is that it's a sign actually of a healthy relationship.

Yes.

Of a healthy and thriving relationship.

You're both growing and changing and there are things that are coming up maybe for the first time,

Maybe for the 50th time that you don't want to just let go because you know that if you allow that conflict or disappointment or disagreement to be left untouched,

What you're actually saying is that I've given up on a piece of this relationship.

He or she is not going to see my side.

They're not going to hear me.

It's not even worth my effort to talk about.

Let it go.

Now,

Let it go might be the right thing,

But sometimes it's just,

I just don't have the energy for this or I don't care that much about this part of the relationship.

But if you're in a thriving relationship,

Then you really care about almost every aspect of the relationship.

And if there's something important that you disagree on or there's something important that one or the other has either hurt or disregarded,

You want to talk about that.

You want to talk about that.

And whether it's an argument or whether it's a strong conversation,

I think one of the most important signs of a thriving and growing relationship is the fact that there is conflict.

I think like you said,

Conflict is not necessarily a yelling match,

But it does mean conversations about important things,

Either from within a relationship or about life in general together.

And I think what we're saying is just not to fear that.

It is not an indication of an unhealthy relationship.

It's quite the opposite.

But if now,

The second part of that is how do you fight?

How do you fight?

And unfortunately,

You can tell,

I think objectively,

I'm saying most of our listeners can probably tell when you're seeing a couple fight,

You can tell whether this is a fight that is based on love- You can tell a lot about the relationship will stop.

Yes.

I don't know if I shared this,

Right?

But we've fortunately,

Unfortunately,

We've been with many couples and probably unfortunately,

Unless in the times when it resolved in a positive way,

When they would fight.

And I remember in the early 25 years ago,

In the early years when we'd be around couples like this,

It would be surprising.

Because people say the nastiest things when they argue.

But you can often tell- That can never be taken back,

By the way.

Yeah,

Right.

Unfortunately,

Sometimes.

Whether there's contempt in the argument or you can tell whether it's based on love and a desire to come closer.

And I think,

Again,

There's probably a lot of keys to learn about both your fighting style and the way to do it in a way that's actually constructive.

But used properly,

Conflict in argument can actually be one of the more powerful tools,

Opportunities to grow a relationship.

And I think the first step,

Honestly,

Even before you find a style is to try to hear what the other person is really wanting,

Right?

Often when we're angry,

We say things we don't mean.

We're not even talking about what the argument is anymore.

What is the want behind the words?

And that,

Again,

Does take some training and some emotional intelligence,

But I think it's necessary.

Reminds me of an article I read once where Oprah had interviewed somebody for a position,

A very high position for her magazine or for the show.

And they agreed on a number of what she was going to pay him verbally,

Right?

So then when she offered it,

He came back and he came up with a higher number.

So she said,

Okay.

And then the third time he comes back again and then she says,

Wait a second,

What is this really about?

Because I don't think it's about money,

Right?

And he said to her,

I just want to make sure that you want me to be here as much as I want to be here.

Now,

You would never,

It's just such an example of what happens in relationships because he didn't feel safe to say that he was maybe testing her or wanting to see if she would straight out say,

I really want you to be here.

That's what he wanted to hear those words.

At the end of the day,

The money at that point didn't really matter.

It was already a high salary.

I think that happens a lot in relationships.

We have an expectation or we have a want or we have a hurt or we have an unmet need.

And instead of being vulnerable and saying those things,

We get really complicated and maybe we pick a fight or we find a roundabout way of doing it.

So I think the first thing has to be,

It's okay to just be you,

Flaws and all.

If you chose to marry a person in a long-term relationship,

What's the point of the exercise?

What's the point of going through all of that?

If not even in this space or this place,

Can you be yourself?

Can you actually say,

I want this?

Can you choose vulnerability?

All of this will be uncomfortable until one day it's not.

And it only becomes comfortable once you practice it over and over again.

So we can give you tools and tips and how to,

And I want to talk about all of that,

But I think at the core of everything,

It's to really say,

Okay,

I've chosen this person to be my life partner.

And if I'm in,

I want to be all in.

To be all in,

You have to reveal the parts of yourself that are the parts you want to hide the most.

And one of the,

I know you've spoken about this,

Is that after the conflict,

After the argument,

Right,

You have to repair.

Yes.

And even if it's an important conversation and I hope you don't mind me sharing.

Well,

I might.

So I was actually thinking about this a lot.

So I think it was like last week we had a pretty significant argument.

It sounds like we argue a lot.

We don't argue that much.

Well,

We do,

But we recover pretty quickly.

We don't have serious arguments.

We don't have serious arguments.

We have important conversations probably,

You know,

Once every two weeks or so.

And we recover very quickly.

Right.

But this was actually an argument.

These we hardly,

I mean,

This was like,

I don't know,

Once in every six months or so.

Yeah,

I'm not really sure.

I want you to share this.

I'm not going to go into too much detail.

All I'm going to say about it,

I'm going to say a few things.

First of all,

As I think back to it,

And this is probably- Oh,

You're going to apologize?

This is sweet.

I actually think fondly back to that argument.

I do.

I do not.

Well,

Not from what I heard you say at the time.

So we had some trend.

I remember how it started.

This was,

Right?

There was something- I'm not going to help you.

You're not going to help me?

Okay.

Well,

There was something.

Oh,

You were asking a question.

I thought you were asking in a way that I didn't like,

Right?

Now you're enjoying this.

Anyway,

Long story short,

We got into a heated argument.

And we went back and forth,

Back and forth.

And I think,

And again,

The reality is that in order to come back more quickly,

It's like a muscle that if it's based upon real love and real respect,

Even if you have a significant argument,

When you come back,

It's much easier to come back from it.

And I think,

Again,

So we had that argument.

It went on,

I forget how long exactly,

Maybe half an hour later or an hour later,

We had a much more calm conversation about it.

And I think we came to a good place.

You heard me,

I heard you.

And what I wanted to share,

And again,

Maybe I'm sure all listeners are probably enjoying hearing about the argument,

But for me,

As I think back now about that,

It's not a moment of friction in our relationship,

But rather almost a loving memory.

That was the time,

Not for you,

Not for you.

The time that we really went at each other verbally.

And then we took the time- I wasn't even that upset by the way.

It was kind of like- It was a little silly.

It was a little silly.

Yes.

But it was an argument.

And it was necessary though.

I felt stronger after it,

I think together.

Yes.

And like I said,

For me,

Probably one of the most important indications about whether you've repaired and more importantly,

Whether your relationship is built on a foundation that can handle necessary conflict is how quickly you recover.

And you have to take the time to recover.

Somebody asked me once,

And we were giving a relationship lecture together.

He said,

What was the worst argument you ever had?

And what was it about?

He always asks good questions.

The worst argument you ever had?

Yeah.

And I said,

I actually don't remember,

But I remembered how we repaired from it.

I remembered what- because I don't remember the details of it,

But I know how I felt after.

And I felt heard.

I felt loved.

I felt closer to you.

I think that is the point.

And the point- and like we said about challenges,

Conflict is such- can be a significant force of unification if the repair is done.

But the opposite is that if you don't repair,

It remains there as an open wound.

And then the next one,

Another one,

And another one,

And then another one.

So I think while certainly conflict is both a sign of a thriving relationship and two people who are growing individually and in their relationship,

You should think about your last argument or even your last significant argument and say,

Did we repair?

And as I look- think back,

Not just at that moment or that time that we repaired it,

But even as I look back to the conflict,

Do I remember it fondly?

Because I know for me,

And again,

You say from your perspective,

When I think back to that argument that we had,

Again,

I think it was last week,

It brings a smile to my face.

Right?

I always feel- and I always feel closer to you after I do.

Yeah.

So my surprise question to you- But I do want to say one other thing.

Are we ending now?

I wanted to bring up one more point.

Oh,

One more point.

Short one.

Okay.

Because I think this is important also.

I think another really key important ingredient to relationships is to have laughter and levity.

And I think that you can bring that into arguments.

And I love this example of a story from us when we were driving the kids- we were going to Pennsylvania to visit two of our kids in camp.

Did I tell the story already?

I don't think so.

And you're going to get to hear me sing.

I'm really going to sing.

Not really.

I'll try.

Maybe you'll do it.

But it was like what,

A three hour drive without traffic going.

It was a hot summer New York day drive there.

And we had to go visit two different camps.

And Abigail,

Our youngest at the time,

Was like three.

And she gets horrible motion sickness,

Any kind of motion.

So we discovered that the hard way when she was eight months old and I was on a flight with her headed to a wedding where I didn't have time to shower before.

And she threw up all over me and herself.

Being the good mom that I am,

I had packed a change of clothes for herself,

But not me.

And that began the journey of Abigail's motion sickness.

So when we got back in the car,

Right,

We're grimy and sweaty and sticky and she had a spoiled diaper and she's just not happy.

And then she threw up.

We're hitting traffic.

It's four and a half hour now drive back.

And it's just like we can't get there fast enough.

And I'm starting to get irritated.

And of course,

My irritation,

I think,

Might have been directed to you.

And I remember that sometimes we had ways on the directions.

And I remember the lady's voice was so bossy.

She kept saying,

Turn left,

Turn right.

And actually hearing her scream Abigail's in the back.

I'm getting annoyed at you for no good reason.

And instead of losing it,

Right.

And like exploding is what I felt like doing.

We got really silly.

And I think you said,

I don't know,

We started playing around with the navigation,

Like different voices.

I was like,

Jane is really bossy.

We got to tell Jane to be quiet.

She kept telling me,

Like,

Yelling at me how to turn,

Right.

So we found a Justin Timberlake type boy band that was like,

Turn left,

Turn right.

And I just thought it was the funniest thing.

And then we put on the Santa one that's like,

Ho ho ho,

Turn right,

Right.

And it's like singing all these things.

And we just started laughing.

We looked for a Middle Eastern one because I'm Middle Eastern and Israeli one.

I don't think we found those.

But we got super silly and we avoided a fight altogether.

And in fact,

We changed the whole energy.

There was no,

I didn't feel upset anymore.

And so I think that's another,

Like not every argument by the way,

Right.

It has to be so serious or so heavy or so like,

Sometimes you just have to say what you can say,

But you can say it in a silly light way.

And also,

And again,

Going back to the argument we had last week.

You liked that one.

I'll do more of this.

I'll tell you our listeners how they go.

But I think part of what allowed us to repair relatively quickly after was the fact that even while we were arguing,

We were taking it seriously,

But we don't usually between us take ourselves too seriously.

And I think again,

The ego wants to say,

Well,

What I'm thinking right now is so important.

I'm really angry.

And yes,

That comes out,

But I think we've trained ourselves.

And again,

None of this is for granted.

You have to keep reminding yourself of this as you continue to grow,

But that,

Let's not take either each other or even the argument too seriously.

It might be important and let's get to the bottom of it.

And then,

Let's realize that we were both silly to some extent.

A thousand percent.

And I also think another thing that people do,

They just get so hung up on like,

As I remember when we first got married,

You used to,

Actually,

I think you did this your entire life before we got married.

But when you would get undressed,

You would just throw things on the floor.

On the floor,

I think I'd find it shared.

No,

No,

No.

That's the point of the story,

My friend.

Yes.

Okay.

Everywhere.

Oh,

I remember it.

I remember the great detail.

And I would get super irritated.

And I think for six years I complained about this.

Like six years.

You're placing up your clothes,

Whatever.

And it didn't matter to you.

Like it didn't matter to you.

Just for you,

It didn't matter if there was clothes on the floor.

But for me,

Clutter really upsets me.

And you realize that about me now.

Like,

I'll just get,

I just can't,

It just hurts my feelings.

But it's funny,

And I don't want to cut off your story,

But.

.

.

Oh,

But you just did.

But like that knowledge about you,

That would have never happened had we not forced each other to go more deeply into what was happening.

Because I could have.

.

.

Totally.

You would never have.

For the next 30 years thought,

Oh,

Monica just like just nags.

She's type A.

Yeah.

But your personality,

Your personality actually,

When you see clutter,

It actually literally has a negative effect on you.

It really does.

I'm so sorry.

I wish it didn't,

But it really does.

Right.

But knowing that,

It's a completely different way of coming at it anyway.

Right.

And so you would,

I think that had you known that,

Right?

But you did,

Again,

We didn't have that emotional intelligence.

This is like the early parts of our marriage.

But I remember when we started to really take our relationship to the next level,

I decided I'm going to get a chair for the room.

We didn't have a chair.

Now we always have a chair in the bedroom.

And I said to you,

Just take your clothes off and pile it up on this chair.

Just put everything there.

And you did.

And then I said,

Over time,

I was like,

And then on Friday for the weekend,

Just on Fridays,

Hang it up.

And you agreed.

And then you started to do that.

So the chair had a pile of clothes and then come Friday,

You would clean it up.

And now you just put your clothes away.

Right.

And I never,

It's just something that evolved because you understood what it meant to me.

And I stopped nagging you and I didn't expect it.

Right.

I let you have your space.

You let me have mine.

I think that's really good example of,

First of all,

You know,

Don't sweat the small stuff.

And this idea that some things are just what they are at the end of the world.

And I think there's an additional point,

Which is something we touched upon before,

Really coming to understand each other,

Where we're coming from.

Very important.

Right.

The want behind the words.

Right.

So what's your question,

Mr.

Berg?

Oh,

So I was going to ask what is,

I was going to say the most significant lesson from an argument we've had,

Right?

It doesn't have to be a significant argument,

But just what was a lesson,

Understanding that you gained from an argument that we had?

The one that always stands out to me.

It was when I had a falling out with my best friend of 20 years and I was really struggling and you couldn't understand that because I don't think at that time,

Well,

I know at that time you hadn't had any friendships like that on that level.

And I think even though you never said this,

I think that you couldn't understand it,

But I think also maybe you thought I was overreacting.

I don't think you really,

The deep pain that I was in.

And it was such a big break between me and her that this feeling that I was in lasted for a few months and I wasn't always down,

But it was really like a heavy weight.

And I started to be really cynical about friendships.

And I remember we were away and I went to the spa and I saw these two girlfriends chatting and I remember thinking like,

Oh,

Just wait,

She's going to backstab you because you reminded me of me and my friend and how we used to be.

And then I caught that thought and I was like,

Monica,

You're not going to become this bitter person.

And I think I shared that with you and I don't know for whatever reason,

And I was really crying.

I had like really,

It was like the end.

It was all of the pain and felt was coming out.

And it was the first time you actually really felt me about this and you kept apologizing for not understanding me sooner.

And like you held me and you hugged me.

And I mean,

I really just felt so understood.

I'm emotional now.

And it really like,

And you admitted that where you were at and kept apologizing.

And I just,

I mean,

My heart just grew even more fond and in love.

And yeah.

Yeah,

And it's that's such a great story.

That's such an important story for me in that.

And I think this is true,

Not just in this case.

I want to be helped to grow to be a better husband.

So it actually excites me to realize and I realized then that I really wasn't feeling you there for you as I should have been.

That's not,

I don't look back at that as,

Oh,

You know,

That,

You know,

I wasn't,

You know,

I was doing something wrong.

That's the ego would like to say,

Let's go past that.

That's an exciting moment for me.

Right?

And I think once you start off on the point,

No matter how long you've been in,

Hopefully a successful marriage or relationship,

There's so much more for me to learn.

More to learn about you,

More to learn about me,

More to learn about relationships.

And I have to be open for where I know as we're sitting here today,

There are things about you that I am blind to.

There are things about me that you are blind to.

There are things about our relationship that we're blind to as meaning places we need to change and to grow towards.

And that's going to continue hopefully for the next hundred years.

And that's exciting.

I'm excited.

I think it was really special too about that moment.

I think up until that point,

I think a lot of people do this in relationships.

You're trying to understand what I was feeling.

Of course you love me,

But you were only seeing it to the capacity or the ability of what you could understand from your own perspective and your own experiences.

In that moment,

What was so profound,

You really put yourself in my shoes.

You really,

Really,

Even though it was foreign to you,

You felt it and understood it through me.

And I think that was a big shift in our relationship for sure.

It was another level.

And I think that's why that one stands out so much.

It wasn't just about what I was feeling and not receiving from you,

But from that point on,

I think that you were able to do that.

Right.

And I think that we learned to do that more and more all the time.

Yeah.

You get some points.

Yay.

Well.

My wife loves me.

OK.

So before we go,

Please continue to send in your questions,

Stories,

Inspiration on relationship and all other topics.

And we will try to get to as many of the questions,

As many as the topics over the next few podcasts.

And again,

As I always say this,

We are overwhelmed by the amount of listeners we have to the podcast.

Thank you to all of you.

And please continue to show your support by giving five star on the Apple podcast,

By writing reviews,

By sharing this with your friends and family.

And we do this because,

Well,

We enjoyed spending this time together,

But also because we hope to inspire our listeners to have deeper,

More meaningful relationships,

Thriving relationships.

And when you share those stories with us,

That continues to inspire us as well.

So we hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast as much as we enjoyed recording it.

And we look forward to sharing with you again next week.