Making The Best Use Of Your Time With Dr. Cassie Holmes

How can you use your time in ways that will lead you to feel happier and more content?

And how do you stop rushing through life and start living it?

That's the conversation that I'm going to have today with Cassie Holmes on Your Life in Process.

So you may feel like you don't have enough time,

Like you need to rush through things,

You need to be more productive,

You need to be more efficient.

But unfortunately,

Sometimes the more efficient we get,

The less time we actually feel that we have.

It doesn't solve the problem of feeling time poor,

It just adds to it,

Because we end up rushing through our lives rather than being in them.

And when you're rushing through your life,

You're more likely to put off important tasks with less meaningful ones.

And you may feel like you're just getting through the day,

I hope I can get through this day without completely burning out to get to the next day.

Time isn't just the problem,

It's also the solution.

And more time isn't always the answer.

Today we talk with Cassie Holmes about how you can expand your time and focus on what matters most with the time that you have.

Cassie Holmes is a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management,

Where she is an award winning teacher and researcher.

Holmes's work on the intersection of time and happiness has been widely published in the lead academic journals and featured in outlets such as NPR,

The Economist,

The New York Times,

The Wall Street Journal,

The Atlantic,

The Washington Post,

And more.

Happy Hour is her first book.

And we're going to be talking about today this concept of time,

The research that she's done,

And how you can use your time to build a rich and meaningful life,

Which is really the focus of this podcast.

When I bring people on the show,

I'm always thinking about how their work could actually be applied to your life to deepen your experience of living.

And certainly our relationship with time is part of that.

I've been applying some of Cassie's concepts to my life,

Which I talk about on the show.

And at the end of the podcast,

I will summarize things for you so that you have a plan to move forward and put these ideas into practice.

And in particular,

Thinking about the new year coming up,

How you want to spend your time in 2023,

So that you craft the life that you want to live a life that you will feel proud of looking back on.

All right,

Enjoy the show.

I've been having a good time reading your book and have actually incorporated a lot of things into my life because of it.

So that's fun.

This podcast is one that is really applied.

I try and give folks ideas from evidence-based psychology,

Contemplative practice.

And so your book is a good example of that.

Awesome.

Well,

I hope to be able to hear which pieces of it you've been applying and they really resonate.

Yes.

Yes.

A couple of exercises in particular,

And actually even my decision to just this last week,

I booked a trip to Mexico with my husband for one week later.

It was an impulsive,

Impulsive booking.

And it was in part because of these concepts of thinking about how at least I often will have a tendency to put off certain things that are really important to me until I get something else done first.

And my husband is in that category of the put off,

Until some future event thing.

Well,

Often that is the case because your husband is around and you have this sort of idea of like,

Oh,

We always have each other,

There will always be more time and everything else seems pressing.

But it's so wonderful that you are prioritizing him and each other.

Fantastic.

I'm really excited for you guys.

Yeah,

It goes hand in hand with,

I'm going to go with him and I'm also going to write,

I'm working on a second book.

So also that's the other thing that I tend to put off is writing a book that I want to write.

So putting those together and putting them up front to use my time in ways that are more aligned with my values and the life that I want to build.

And that's what your book is all about.

It's called The Happier Hour.

And I'm hoping today we can talk about some of the ideas you have in there just on a personal level and also give folks strategies about their own use of time and maybe changing some perspectives on time as well,

Which is what your book does.

And then some of the exercises that you do and I can share a little bit about some of those exercises that I've you take this concept of time where it's like a being time rich or being time poor,

Both are problematic.

It's not that we need necessarily need more time,

But it's how we're using our time that matters.

So can you talk a little bit about just the premise of this work and your research into time?

Yeah.

And it all sort of started from a very personal experience,

Which I shared as a story to open the book when,

As you mentioned,

There's sort of time poor and then time rich.

I was definitely in a time poor state.

So it was earlier in my career when I was still on the faculty at Wharton living in Philly.

And I,

It was one of those crazy days that so many people can relate to because we all have these crazy days that we're running around.

And in this particular case,

I'd gone up to New York that day to give a talk about my research.

And my presentation was sandwiched within these back to back meetings.

And then I was rushing to this networking sort of colleague dinner and then rushing like a crazy person.

I was so stressed to get to the train station to catch the very last train that would get me home to my four month old and my husband who were asleep in Philly.

And I remember so vividly sitting on the train,

And I was like,

Oh,

I'm so stressed.

And I was like,

Oh,

I'm so stressed.

And I remember so vividly sitting on the train that night,

Looking out the window as sort of the darkness was whizzing by.

And I was like,

I don't know if I can keep up,

Right?

Between the pressures of work,

Wanting to be a good partner,

Wanting to be a good friend,

Wanting to be a good parent,

The never ending pile of chores.

It's like there simply weren't enough hours in the day to get it all done,

Let alone to do any of it well,

Let alone to enjoy any of it.

And I was in that state.

I was like,

All right,

The solution is clear.

I need to quit.

I need to quit my job and move to a sunny,

Slow-paced island somewhere.

And so many of us in those crazy days,

I think,

Do have that daydream of like,

I can't do it all,

So I'm going to quit.

And then when I have a whole lot more time,

Then surely I would be happier.

But I did not actually quit.

I was like,

I wonder if it's actually true.

Are people who have a whole lot more time to do exactly what they want over the course of their days,

Are they happier?

And this is an empirical question,

And I'm a social psychologist,

And these are the types of questions that we can put to data.

And we did.

And we looked at what's the relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have and their happiness,

And we looked at data across tens of thousands of working as well as non-working Americans.

And the pattern was consistent across all of our studies.

Namely,

It was a sort of upside-down U shape or like a rainbow.

So what that suggests is that it's down on both ends of the spectrum.

So yes,

With too little time,

People are less happy.

So that was me on the train.

That was all of us in those days rushing around.

And the reason that we're less happy is because we have higher levels of stress.

But I think the really surprising and important piece of it was that other side,

That that other side showed that there is such thing as having too much time.

Actually,

When people had in that data set of the American Time Use Survey,

It showed that people with more than approximately five hours of discretionary time in the day,

They were less happy.

And then we dug into that.

Well,

Sort of like why?

Why is it that if you had all the hours of your days to spend exactly how you wanted,

People are less happy?

And what it turns out is that we are driven to be productive.

And we are averse to being idle.

And so when we have all the hours of our days with nothing to show for how we spent those hours,

It undermines our sense of purpose.

And yes,

There are activities that you can spend your time on that don't involve paid work that can provide a sense of purpose,

Volunteering or engaging in an enriching hobby.

But I realized that for me,

I got a great sense of purpose from the work that I do.

And so that is to tell us,

Okay,

Don't quit.

Don't quit these things that,

Yes,

You know,

There's features of our jobs and there's features of everything that aren't just absolutely happy.

But the solution isn't to do less.

And what is actually really interesting is also that you saw in the dataset that there was this like it went down on both sides,

But in the middle,

It was largely flat,

Which suggests that there's no relationship between the amount of discretionary,

Except at the extremes,

There's no relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have and their happiness,

Which suggests that it's not about how much you have for the most part.

It's really how you invest what you have.

That is,

It's not about how much time you have available.

It's not about being time rich in terms of having a whole lot of time.

It's really about how do we spend our time to make that time rich?

How do we invest the hours of our days so that we look back on the days and even if busy,

That we feel fulfilled and satisfied as opposed to that overwhelmed,

Depleted,

Stressed out,

Burnt out.

And so I didn't quit.

As I mentioned,

I actually went to study this and I actually shifted my whole research paradigm to try to figure out like,

Okay,

How should we be investing the hours of our days to make our time feel richer,

To make us feel happier in the days and more satisfied about our lives?

And from that,

I developed a course that I've been teaching to our MBAs at UCLA for the last four years.

And it's been so fantastic to see the effect of applying these empirically based insights to their lives and seeing just how much more connected,

How much more engaged,

How much happier,

How much more satisfied they are in their lives as well as being more thoughtful and intentional about designing their life and career track to be more in line with their values.

And as not only have I been teaching it to my students,

But I absolutely live all of this stuff.

I apply the insights and benefit and I'm happier as a result.

Yeah.

Well,

College is such a good example,

Graduate school as well,

Where I have college students that are my clients and I get to see them right before finals week where they're miserable because they have no time to do anything but study and they're just completely consumed by their work.

And then they're also miserable like two months into summer when they're stuck at home and they have no sense of purpose and how many times can you go to the beach or how many movies can you watch?

Right.

And so there is those extremes of the times when we are too crunched.

And I certainly see that in my life.

If there's no breathing space at all,

There's no margin,

There's no room between one thing to the next.

I'm in hurry mode and I'm not actually in my life.

I'm just getting to the next thing,

Which is not satisfying.

And then also the other aspect of when there's so much unstructured time that we're not able to do anything.

And so we don't savor it as much because it's an unlimited resource.

And maybe we don't see this aspect of impermanence and how impermanence really does help shape our actions into being able to live like this might be the last time you ever get to live this way.

And one of the things that you,

One of the exercises that you had us do in the book was start to look at sort of the number of times that you have left doing something.

And I think this is,

It's an impermanence exercise,

Which is very much overlap with active looking at sort of when we look at impermanence,

It highlights our values very well.

I did this exercise with my sons who I read to bed at night.

And I read about you reading your partner reads to your children.

And that's an important activity that he engages in.

But when you start to hit 13,

Reading to bed at night becomes a very limited activity,

Right?

There's gonna be,

The window is getting smaller and smaller of when I'll be,

You know,

Cozying up in bed reading.

And now we're reading books like the Da Vinci Code,

And where I have to censor half of it because I'm embarrassed writing about some of the content.

But this is a limited activity that now I only have sort of a handful of times when I'm gonna read to him.

And it really shapes my way in which knowing that in which I engage with that,

Because in my,

I think as any parent,

We've read books where we're just in our head the whole time,

And actually not even paying attention to reading.

And then we've also read books where we're just noticing how sweet it is to be in this moment with somebody.

But can you tell us how you do that exercise?

Because you had a fun way of mapping it out on a piece of paper and sort of doing some math around it to help people look at time and use of time.

Yeah,

And it is a really impactful and important exercise.

Because even in our busiest of days and weeks,

There are these little moments of potential joy.

But when we are so busy,

We don't even notice because we're rushing through them.

Or as you mentioned,

When we have all the time in the world,

We also don't notice because we expect that they will continue to be available to us.

So,

We sort of take them for granted.

Yeah,

It's these sort of moments of joy.

And in my research,

We actually found that ordinary experiences like reading to your kids at bedtime,

Like going for a walk with your partner,

Going for a walk with your dog,

We find these ordinary experiences can actually create as much happiness as extraordinary ones.

Like those extraordinary experiences like going on an incredible vacation or going to a concert.

And what we found is that it was when people recognize that their time is limited,

That they savored these simple pleasures more and they paid more attention to them.

And from that,

They,

Folks enjoy as,

You know,

Like wonderful amounts of happiness from these really accessible everyday experiences.

Now,

How do we make it so that we don't take them for granted?

So that A,

We make the time,

You know,

Even in those hectic days.

And when we're spending the time that we pay attention so that we enjoy the happiness from it,

And it's counting.

Counting how many times do you have left to do this experience and looking at the percentage.

And so,

An example is my coffee date with my daughter,

Lita.

And so,

This is something that we do each week.

And it was actually born out of a really functional routine as an on my way to drop her at preschool next to my office.

I wanted coffee,

You know.

And so,

We would stop at the coffee shop.

But we turned my routine into a ritual.

And it became this like really special and meaningful 30 minutes.

Not a lot of time,

Just 30 minutes.

And,

You know,

We should get our hot chocolate.

I got my flat white.

We would get croissants.

And it was just 30 minutes of just the two of us chatting and being together.

Now,

It happens every week.

So,

I could,

You know,

Like if I didn't recognize just how sort of precious this time was,

It would be very easy for me on a week when I need to get to a meeting or,

You know,

Something else takes its place that it's like,

Okay,

You know,

We don't have time for this.

But the first step in the exercise is to count.

Once you've identified a sort of joyful activity or something that you love to do,

Is count how many times have you done this in your life so far.

So,

I calculated if I include my daily coffee trips to the coffee shop during my maternity leave and then our weekly ones since,

I calculated that my daughter and I have gone on about 400 coffee dates in our life thus far.

Then the next step is to calculate how many times do you likely have left to do it.

And this is the important part to account for the fact that circumstances in your life are likely to change.

And if your joyful activity involves someone else,

Circumstances in their life are likely to change.

So,

You mentioned your kids now in their teen years,

You know,

Reading together at night,

It becomes more intermittent if at all.

And then,

Like at some point,

They're going to go off to college and they're going to,

You know,

And they're going to,

You know,

Live across the country,

You know.

And so,

I calculated,

So my daughter is seven.

I was like,

Okay,

When she's 12,

She's probably going to want to go to the coffee shop with her friends more than with me.

And then she's going to go off to college and then she's going to live in New York if she's like anything like me.

And so,

I calculated we have about 230 coffee dates left.

And then the last step in the exercise is,

Okay,

Out of your total dates in your life or times of doing this activity,

What percentage do you have left?

And so,

I realized that we have 36% of our coffee dates.

That's much less than half and she's only seven.

And so,

Recognizing that is so important because what it does is it makes me make the time,

Right,

As I mentioned.

Like if,

Even if it's a busy week and it might seem easier in the moment not to stop at the coffee shop and have those 30 minutes,

It makes me make the time.

It also,

When I'm,

During the day,

It makes me pay attention because I recognize just how precious this time is.

And from the sort of limited,

Knowing that it's finite,

Knowing that it's not going to last forever in that particular way,

You know,

Is really,

Really important.

And I think this exercise does a good job of not only sort of reminding us to make the time and to be engaged during that time,

But it also highlights just how important time is as a resource.

Like how important our time is.

Like these minutes,

The 30 minutes,

Are just part of the week and these weeks add up to our months and years and life.

And this is the,

Like these little bits are all part of the bigger picture and we can't pass them by.

So,

Yeah,

I'm glad you asked about that exercise because it's one of my favorite.

And I will say that like when I have my students do this in class,

I've had a couple,

You know,

Be like,

What are you doing to us?

You know,

Because like inevitably people tear up when they realize that their dinners with their parents are much more limited than they ever imagined.

Or one of my students,

He calculated watching sports on the couch with his best friend.

You know,

Middle school,

High school,

Years,

It was an embarrassing number of hours that they spent watching sports.

But then now that they have their own families and live in different places,

Like that simple pleasure of sitting with your best friend and watching,

You know,

Hanging out was really limited.

And actually sort of similar to you said,

Like afterwards,

You're like,

You booked a trip with your husband.

My student in the summer,

The next class break,

He went out and he called his buddy and he's like,

I'm coming to visit you,

Just me,

You,

It's a guy's weekend.

So it does motivate prioritizing these moments of joy.

Yeah.

So you do two things,

Right?

So one is choosing to spend your time differently than your automatic tendency would be to,

Oh,

You know,

I can just,

I can do that another time.

It'll always be available.

So I can fit in this like sneaky work or,

You know,

Sneaky meeting just this one time when it's not just this one time,

Right?

Every time matters more when you start to count the limited resource.

But then you also spend your time differently when you're in it.

And,

You know,

I think about for folks that have,

That are adults with aging parents,

When you start,

And I've done this with clients,

When you start to look at something like the holidays,

How many,

Say you alternate with your in-laws,

How many holidays do you have left with this parent,

Right?

And how are you going to show up at those holidays?

Are you going to show up as,

You know,

In a place of conflict and non-acceptance and trying to change them?

But like,

If you only have 10 left or five left,

Like only five more of these,

How would you show up differently?

That the concept of people tearing up is very much related to when you make contact with things that are meaningful to you,

They touch you and it's,

You,

You're moved and it's actually being moved that motivates us to make different choices.

So,

I think that's a good thing that your students are tearing up.

That you can say,

Good,

That means you made contact.

They're tearing up and they're like,

We thought this was a happiness class when you're making us cry.

I'm like,

But it's so important.

And you will think,

And they inevitably do.

And it depends on how you define happiness,

Because I had Aaron Westgate on a while back,

And we talked about definitions of happiness that it is,

You know,

Sure,

Sure.

There's the pleasurable joy aspects of happiness,

But there's also meaning and also psychological richness and growth.

So,

There's another task that I have been thinking about,

Which is some of our daily activities that a lot of times people rate as low on the happiness scale.

So,

Things like commuting and housework,

Which actually I really,

I,

I love housework.

I'm like one of those oddballs.

I love to cook and I love to clean.

It's like super satisfying for me,

But commuting.

And I calculated how long it takes for me to this afternoon,

Go drive from my house to go pick up one child that's you know,

20 minutes away and then wait in the car line.

It's very slow to go around the loop.

It's like In-N-Out Burger car line for them to get in,

But then drive to pick up the other child to then wait for their car line of the In-N-Out Burger to them,

Get in the car to then take them to the afterschool activity.

And it's a good hour and 25 minutes,

Hour and a half of car time.

And I started looking at that based on some of your recommendations of the book,

Because it was something that I wasn't liking so much and looking at how I could insert more of my values into my car time.

So I did everything from,

I changed it now so that I get to the loop and I park a block away.

And I calculated it takes me just as much time to walk from my car to go get my kid at the loop and then walk him back as it does to wait.

And it's more enjoyable because now in my hour and 25 minutes,

I'm walking in the middle of it and I'm actually greeting him as opposed to him just jumping in the back of the car.

And then I also incorporated in some silent time.

So on my drive out,

I keep silent.

I don't turn on any podcast,

Any music.

And I use that time just to be quiet with myself,

Which is for me,

Something that I don't have a lot of,

Or don't have enough of in my life is just quiet reflection time to just breathe and experience silence.

And then the last thing that I did was made it connecting time with my kids.

So when we're driving,

I get a little bit of one-on-one time with my little one,

Which is kind of sweet to see,

Just have that tea.

He's usually eating like half of his lunch because he didn't eat it during the day.

And we're sort of chatting about what he,

Lunchtime and little things,

But reclaiming these hours that we don't like and shifting them to be different.

Tell us a little bit about that research and what you suggest for folks around the time that we don't like.

Yeah.

And there inevitably is going to be time that we don't like,

And you can identify.

So there's sort of two steps of this of identifying,

And maybe you don't even need to track your time to identify the times you don't like,

But I do suggest that people spend a week tracking their time over the course of a week,

Writing down for each 30-minute interval what you're doing,

And as importantly,

Rating on a 10-point skill,

How do you feel?

How did that activity make you feel coming out of it?

How joyful,

Satisfied,

Fulfilled on a 10-point skill?

And what's really helpful,

While I will admit sort of a tedious task to track,

It's really worth it because at the end of the week,

You have this fantastic personalized data set,

So you can look across your activities and see,

Okay,

What are those activities that get my highest ratings,

That make me feel really fulfilled and satisfied?

What are those that are my least happy?

And those,

You know,

I'll get to because that is sort of the point of your question.

But then you also actually pick out,

You can see not only how you're feeling in your activities from your activities,

But also just how much time you're spending.

And so like,

You might see like,

Oh my gosh,

I'm spending a surprising amount of time.

Are you in order commuting?

Or for some,

It's scrolling social media,

And it's this surprising thing because you think that like,

Oh,

It's just going to be a couple of minutes,

And those couple of minutes turn into a half hour,

And those half hours add up to tens of hours in your week.

And what's also surprising is that oftentimes those are getting very middling ratings.

And so people have this notion of like,

Oh,

That's my pleasure.

Like I enjoy scrolling or at the end of the night or at the end of the day,

Turning on the TV and sort of watching TV for hours each night.

And it's like this surprising thing because people are like,

Oh,

That's my way I treat myself.

But actually,

I'm not all that happy from doing it.

So that's a helpful thing to recognize,

Because it identifies hours that you can reallocate to activities that do actually make you feel more satisfied.

Now,

For those least happy activities,

And the time tracking research points to on average commuting,

Hours spent at work as well as housework are the activities that typically are associated with the lowest levels of happiness.

And the commuting in particular,

The reason that people experience it as so painful is because it feels like a waste of time.

As you said,

It's an hour and a half that you're almost waiting to get through.

It's just something that you have to do,

But the content itself isn't all that satisfying.

And so one of the strategies to make that wasteful time feel more worthwhile is bundling.

And it's such a simple idea,

But it's really effective.

And it came out of research by Katie Milkman and her colleagues,

Which is just bundle that thing you don't like to do with an activity you do like to do.

So you noted commuting you don't like to do.

But having time outside,

Which actually research shows is a significant mood booster,

Is very,

Like,

It is really positive.

That social connection with your little one,

Again,

It's not just sort of like you guys both waiting through the car ride to pick up the next.

It's you've turned it into time that is really intentional and thoughtful as time just the two of you to catch up on the day and spend together.

For some,

It is an audio book.

So oftentimes we get in the car and we sort of scroll through radio stations without thinking.

So it's very sort of just filling the space.

But one of the things that people say when I am doing research on time poverty,

I ask them to complete the sentence.

I don't have time to blink.

And that is actually in itself I encourage folks to do because it that points out these opportunities of spending in these ways that are really important to you.

But oftentimes people are like,

I don't have time to read for pleasure.

Now,

If every time you got in the car,

You turned on an audio book,

Then every week or so you would read like you would get through an entire book.

And so it takes that time or listening to a podcast.

It's a time that is enriching and educating and illuminating and inspiring as opposed to just wading through it.

So bundling,

I am very impressed that you enjoy housework probably because it feels satisfying and you can see the immediate benefit of your work.

But for other oftentimes people don't,

I don't enjoy folding laundry,

But now I will turn on a stream a show that nobody else in my family wants to watch.

And so all of a sudden folding laundry is this like time that I sort of look forward to because I get to watch a show.

So you can bundle these unfun activities with more fun activities to make that time more fun.

Yes,

I love that.

That's one of the strategies we did in our house around laundry folding,

Which is it.

Laundry folding happens on Sundays with a sports game where we take the big bucket of laundry and we pour it in the middle of the playroom and say,

Have fun an hour and a half later,

I want this folded and put away,

Enjoy the game.

And then all of a sudden it's like,

It gives you something to do while you're watching a sports game.

So yes,

There is something to be said about,

There's this fine line between making every minute meaningful and productive,

Which could make us anxious,

Right?

Versus this pressure being in this minute and in this moment and not always thinking I'm trying to get to somewhere other than where I am.

Because going back to folding laundry,

I remember folding those little tiny onesies and those little tiny socks and those little tiny shirts.

And I would give anything to fold that little onesie again.

They were so cute and tiny.

Now I can't tell what's my husband's clothes and what's my son's clothes are the same size t-shirts.

So there is something precious in every moment if we shift the way that we see it and shift the way that maybe we place our attention around it.

I would like to add to that because often I am sort of in this realm of time management.

A lot of the advice is to how to be more efficient.

It's how to get more things done more quickly.

And I think that actually is what needs to be shift.

It's not about efficiency,

It's about what's worthwhile.

So it's about how do you spend your time to make it all feel worthwhile.

And that can come from,

As you said,

You have that quiet car time where it's just silent because that is worthwhile time.

That's time for reflection.

And doing the bundling of folding the laundry while watching TV,

It's not about getting it done quicker,

It's about making the time that you are going to be spending folding the laundry and maybe you don't want to spend.

But when you have the TV on and the kids sort of like playing around you,

Then not all of a sudden that time feels more worthwhile.

So I do think it is an absolute shift in mindset,

Even the goal of this whole time spending endeavor that it is about what's worthwhile and not efficiency.

Because the efficiency mindset is what I think trips so many of us up and the pressure of doing.

Doing every moment to make it,

Be able to check off better and more.

Yeah.

Well,

And to clarify,

It's my children that are folding the laundry in front of the sports game,

Not me,

Which is part of the practice of having them shift their relationship around.

We don't use the word chores in our house.

We talk about things as these are the things that a household needs to get done for a household to function.

Just like if you were in a workspace,

We all have to contribute to the workspace.

Or when you have roommates someday,

It's like,

How is this household going to function?

So if you want to make it more enjoyable while you watch a sports game,

Go for it and help them shift their perspective around it.

But that's an important component because oftentimes the things that make our life the most meaningful are actually not the things that are the most productive.

And I did another exercise of yours,

Which is interviewing an elder.

And I chose my neighbor who is a dear friend of us,

Our family,

And someone that I deeply respect.

She's like who I want to be when I grow up and has been who I want to be when I grew up and went over there and asked her a few questions.

I just brought my morning coffee over and said,

Hey,

Can I ask you a few questions?

I'm doing a little exercise for this book,

Happier hour.

And she listens to the podcast.

She's a big fan.

But I asked her these three questions that you recommended.

I asked her,

Looking back on your life,

What are your greatest sources of pride?

Looking back on your life,

What are your greatest sources of regret?

And then I asked her about some important decisions,

What's turned out to matter more than you expected.

And what she shared was interesting.

So she was actually pretty quick to answer these questions.

She's pretty self-reflective.

And her answers to the greatest sources of pride and greatest sources of regret all had to do with connections.

And they all had to do with being present with her children,

And now her grandchildren,

And some regrets over not being present.

And then the important decisions,

Sort of what turned out more than she expected was the value of being patient.

She said,

We don't always need to act and fix things.

And we can trust that we are evolving.

And sometimes things fix themselves if we are patient enough.

So it was great because it was such an example of,

Wait,

This isn't efficiency with time.

This is actually the opposite of that.

It's like being present and being patient.

But this was her wisdom from someone that's now a grandparent and an elder.

It's so fantastic.

And I'm so glad that you did that exercise because I think it's a really powerful one.

And the reason that I encourage folks to do it and I have my students do it is because here we are sort of so often just thinking hour by hour of like wanting to make choices that will make life overall,

Quote unquote,

Successful or satisfying.

And then the question is like,

Well,

What is even a good life?

And there are people who have lived one that we can learn from.

And so I encourage folks to,

We have wisdom that can be gained from those who are looking back on like those who from our perspective have lived a good life that are happy,

Who are satisfied or quote unquote,

Successful in oftentimes it's like happy and satisfied.

And ask me,

What are those greatest sources of pride?

What are those greatest sources of regret so that it can help inform us as we're making decisions today?

And I mean,

I've been having my students over the years do this every time I teach the course and the consistency is remarkable about what these remarkable people are proud of.

And I think that's what these remarkable people regret and connection,

Social connection and those relationships are so far and away what people point to as their source of pride.

And these are in many cases very professionally successful and accomplished individuals,

But it's their relationships with their family that they're so proud of.

And also the regret as like your neighbor,

It's the regret from not investing enough in those relationships.

Some people actually say they don't have regrets,

Which is really wonderful.

And it's not baloney because maybe your neighbor with her patients,

If we sort of live well and sort of fix the things that we mess up along the way to the extent possible or wait them out patiently,

Then actually we can reach a state without feeling regret.

And that's actually really the goal of things.

It's not that we're not going to mess up.

Of course,

We're all going to mess up at points,

But it's how we deal with those mess ups and also not missing out on investing in ways that matter so that we look back and feel like we've messed up on that really big thing of not having really lived and been present and missing out on so many moments.

What I liked about this exercise is you get to borrow your elder's regrets.

And to help you maybe make different decisions,

I had a conversation with Daniel Pink about his book,

The Power of Regret.

And it was great because he has studied thousands of people's regrets and what are the common themes around people's regrets.

And that can inform us so that we make different decisions in our lives.

I think it's actually one of the gifts of being a psychologist is that I hear many different stories and it helps me shape my life of like,

Okay,

I could see where this could take me if I were to continue on this path.

Even something as simple as my mom for Thanksgiving compiled this whole video montage of all Thanksgiving's past.

And it was really sweet.

I mean,

She just had the best time collecting all these pictures.

And then she sent it to me and I was too busy to look at it.

And I was just like,

I don't have time to look at your Thanksgiving montage,

Mom.

I have so many,

Like,

I'm just trying to make it to Thanksgiving.

Okay.

And now I have this trip to Mexico to plan,

Just putting a wrench in everything,

Which is good.

It's good I'm doing it.

But then I had a client come in sharing about what it was like for their daughter not to look at her pictures that she shared and being able to have that reflection of,

Okay,

Wait,

This actually really matters.

This is a moment of connection of someone sharing something with you that's important to them.

And it's important for you to look at it and to take the time for it because how many more times do I have my mom sharing Thanksgiving montages with me?

It sort of could be limited.

I may regret it at some point if I don't take the time to look.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean,

That actually,

Even doing this exercise,

Often folks do it with parents.

That it's also an avoid,

Not only are we learning from their regrets to avoid them,

But then we also don't regret not having asked these really illuminating questions and connecting questions of these elders whom aren't going to be around forever.

And I've had,

Actually,

Within the last month,

One of my former students emailed me and was just saying that they are so glad that they did that exercise,

She said,

With her grandma because her grandmother has passed away and that she's so grateful to have had that conversation which was so connecting before it was too late.

So that's also,

Not only do we learn their regrets to avoid them,

But it's also,

We won't regret not having those really connecting conversations.

Yeah.

I know.

I think about that with my neighbor because she's not going to always be my neighbor.

And neighbors and everyone where you think,

Oh,

They're going to be there forever.

They're just your neighbor.

Go and borrow some butter and,

But that's not the case.

And being able to do that really,

It was a little bit awkward to step into someone's house,

Going to ask them these deep questions,

But it was that awkwardness built something,

A more meaningful connection.

And I'm sure she was so flattered.

It's so interesting in a lot of these,

And there's research to support it,

That we think things are going to be more awkward than they are in the future.

And they actually tend to turn out to be really beneficial both for the initiator and the responder.

So complimenting.

So there's work by Nick Epley and his colleagues,

Which we think that it will be awkward to compliment someone,

Like just anyone about anything,

Walking by and complimenting someone's shoes or whatever it is.

We think it's going to be awkward.

And also we think that they know it already,

But their research shows that people are more surprised,

The recipient of the compliment,

And they are significantly happier having received that compliment than they predict,

Anyone predicts.

And so it suggests that we should sort of get over this fear of awkwardness of like complimenting or going to someone and being like,

I really admire you and I want to learn from your life.

And I have a couple of questions.

So yeah.

Another awkwardness is reaching out to relationships that have maybe just sort of lost their thread for whatever reason.

Maybe there was a little bit of conflict at some point,

Or something got awkward between you,

Or you just didn't tend to it because you got busy in your life.

And I find that clients have a really hard time,

People,

Including myself,

Have a hard time reconciling and reconnecting with people.

And that is time well spent,

Because it even though it feels awkward,

Actually have never I think most people just feel grateful that someone has remade that connection.

So that's another way another good use of your time.

Yeah.

So what other things have come up in this research,

Either personally for you,

Things that you've changed in your own life as a result of doing this?

I mean,

Obviously,

You moved to UCLA,

More sun.

But things that you're doing differently in your life because of this research?

As I mentioned,

I do live it.

And I think that the little things along the way,

Like the coffee date example with my daughter,

I continue to sort of touch to because it shows up as beneficial in a lot of different ways.

Because what it highlights is that it's not about how much time.

I already said,

It's not about how much time you have available is how you spend that time.

But it's also not even how much time you spend on these things that matter.

It's how you engage in that time.

And as a parent of young kids who is working in a profession that I also really love,

And I have a partner whom I also really love and friendships whom I also really love,

That there's the potential for sort of guilt of like,

Oh,

I can't spend all the time that I would like to on all of these different sort of relationships and parts of my interests.

And so that feels bad.

But when I sort of shift that to it's not and recognizing again and again,

Through my research,

And I have to like remind myself,

Pointing to the work of being like,

It's not about amount.

It's how I engage during those times that I do actually,

And I'm so grateful for,

I do have a really wonderful relationship with both my kids and my partner,

While also doing this work that I really love,

That takes a lot of my time.

And so that is something helpful that it's not a sort of thing to do.

Actually,

I mean,

I guess it's like how I show up in the time that I spend is the thing to do and making those times.

But it's also sort of coaching myself that it's like,

I'm doing it.

Like I'm not a bad mom,

Because I'm not able to be in the carpool line at pickup because of my work,

But I do spend quality time in other ways.

Another thing is exercise.

Exercise is so important,

And the research speaks to it.

And I know it,

Because when I don't exercise,

I can feel I get into this funk.

Yeah,

It's the thing that is the first to go when I feel busy.

It's like I don't have time to go for a run.

And because it's like taking care of the kids and work,

And it just seems like this thing that feels like it's too much about me.

But when I make the time,

And I,

Again,

Have to touch to my research and read my own writing to remind myself that,

Yes,

I need to make the time to go for a run,

Because not only does our work suggest that by increasing a sense of self-efficacy,

It actually lessens this sense of constraint from time and makes me feel like I have plenty of time,

But also it makes me show up better.

Like,

I enjoy the rest of my day more,

And I am a better mom when I am hanging out with my kids having gone for a run that morning.

I am a better partner.

I am better in the work that I do.

So,

It's also recognizing that these investments of time into ourselves,

It's not selfish,

Nor is it frivolous,

That we do need to prioritize some time to take care of and fill ourselves so that we feel happier and show up,

Because the research shows,

And when you feel happier,

It does make you nicer,

Makes you more helpful for those around you.

It does make you more motivated,

And it does make you more adaptive in your problem-solving.

It does make you more creative.

It does make you healthier so you can be alive longer to help those around you.

So,

All to say that reframing.

Yeah.

Well,

There's a lot of things we could put in that category that people tend to skimp on,

Whether it's sleep,

Because they don't think they have enough time,

Or they,

You know,

I'll just wake up early because it doesn't matter so much,

Or nutrition in terms of how,

You know,

It does take more time sometimes to eat nutritiously or choose foods that,

You know,

Often,

Unfortunately,

The quick foods in our world tend to be ones that aren't as nutrient-dense,

Or,

And you start to see how everything interacts with everything.

But no matter what,

Our mind will probably have something to say,

And it's,

You know,

In ACT,

We talk about cognitive diffusion of just knowing your mind's excuses and knowing your mind,

Your,

Every single time,

Your mind will say,

Oh,

I don't have time for that,

And that you don't have to necessarily let that be what drives your actions.

You drive your actions based on what you know from a deeper knowing of yourself and what,

You know,

What will help you show up in your life with greater meaning and purpose.

And,

And also that third component of psychological richness,

Which is just about growth of spending our time in ways in which we feel like we are growing and evolving as humans,

Right?

So that's another aspect of that happiness triad,

At least for me and my understanding of it.

I love this book because it has all the research,

And then it has a lot of personal anecdotes and stories about how you're using this and your students as well.

And then it just has the concrete stuff that people can try on activities like the ones that we talked about today,

And even more activities that are great for folks that are maybe have a little bit of a new year's,

Okay,

2023,

What am I going to do differently?

How do I want to spend my time this year?

I do believe in like,

Kind of mapping out your life a little bit rather than just having your life,

You know,

Sort of end up where it ends up,

That you have some choice around how you engage in,

In your life,

How you set up your life so that it's in line with your values.

And this book would be a great adjunct as you prepare for 2023.

Awesome.

Well,

I'm so glad that you are going to Mexico and going to enjoy as a as a result.

And then I absolutely agree.

I think everyone has a choice in how we invest our time.

And from that,

We have a choice in the happiness we experience and the joy we experience in our days.

Yes.

And actually,

To speak on the Mexico thing,

Something that you actually how I first learned about you is through an NPR story where you're talking about how to spend your weekend as if you were on vacation.

And if you spend your weekend,

The research you did on that,

If you spend your weekend as if you're on vacation,

You'll have it,

You'll be happier than if you just spend your usual weekend.

And so whether you're going to Mexico or not,

There's ways in which you can bring the vacation to your life by how you're shifting the way that you relate to your weekend,

You don't have to be in Mexico to connect with your partner or have a lazy,

You know,

Cup of coffee in the morning and enjoy time together in that way.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And what the the benefit of treating the weekend like a vacation,

Which we saw empirically has these wonderful effects.

But you can actually apply it to sort of any time off.

And the reason it's so effective is that it shifts us from that doing mode that we've talked about earlier,

Where we move through things to check things off of our lists,

Which tends to be our,

You know,

Routine weekends.

And it shifts us into being mode where you can have that lazy morning and are just sort of in it and present with yourself and as well as with those around you.

So I'm glad that you brought that up.

Yeah.

Well,

That's what hooked me in the first place to wanting to read your book.

So I could be by mentioned it at the end.

All right,

Folks,

Well,

I'm going to give you all some tips from this conversation with Cassie Holmes to follow up on in terms of your week this week to try out and then go check out happier hour.

It's a great book for the new year.

And I'll also put some links in the show notes for places you can find more about Cassie and her research and her many resources that are available to you.

Thank you so much,

Cassie,

For being on the show.

It's wonderful to talk with you.

Thanks so much.

This is a treat.

The purpose of this podcast is really to help you live a rich and meaningful life and how you use your time is part of that.

If there's any take home message from this episode,

It's that how you spend your time,

Not the amount of time that you have is what matters.

And yes,

There is a sweet spot.

You can have too much on your plate.

You can be too scheduled.

And if you have less than two hours of discretionary time a day,

You will be less happy.

If you have more than five hours of idle time a day,

You will be less happy as well.

But once you get into that sweet spot,

How do you use your time?

Cassie and I talked about impermanence and being able to look at how precious time is as a way to guide you to make decisions around not only what you prioritize,

But also how you are in your time.

And we also talked about some exercises that you could try out to take a look at what is meaningful to you and good use of your time.

Here are some things that I would love for you to try this week.

First,

Focus on the periods of your day where you are less happy and feel less meaning.

These could be periods of time when you are commuting,

Doing housework,

Maybe even at work.

Those were the top three that Cassie mentioned from her research.

But pick a section of day when you are least happy,

And maybe you're spending time on it,

But you'd rather be somewhere else.

This would actually be a time to make more meaningful through activity bundling.

How could you take this time and spruce it up?

It's like bringing fresh flowers into a room to enjoy it more.

Maybe you could spruce it up by adding meaning,

Maybe you could make it more pleasurable,

Maybe you can add some element of getting outside into nature or with people.

But try it this week,

Pick a least happy time and make it more happy and more meaningful and see how it shifts the course of your day.

The second thing that I'd love for you to do maybe this week,

Or you could just put it on the this month goal list,

Is to have a conversation with an elder.

And these are the three things to ask the elder that you're having a conversation with.

Number one,

Looking back on your life,

What are you most proud of?

Two,

What do you most regret?

And three,

What has turned out differently than expected?

And you can learn a lot from elders that you respect in terms of what is a life well lived.

It also is a gift to them to reflect back on their life.

This type of reminiscence on your life is actually really healing and beautiful thing to do when you are an elder as well.

Finally,

Turn one day of your weekend into a vacation.

Some of Cassie's research in this area is fascinating that if you take a day and just change your mindset around it and say we are on vacation,

We're going to act as if we are on vacation,

We're going to do activities,

We're going to go out to meals,

We're going to sleep in,

We're going to do what we usually do on vacation,

It enhances your happiness levels.

So try that out this weekend.

Choose one day to be your vacation day and act as if you are on vacation and you will feel as if you are on vacation.

Oftentimes it's our actions that change our feelings,

Right?

Okay,

Try those things with your time this week.

I'd love to hear from you if any of them are helpful,

If you have any feedback or thoughts on this episode,

And I will see you when I get back refreshed,

Rejuvenated,

And excited to share another episode of your life and process with you.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of your life in process.

When you enter your life in process,

When you become psychologically flexible,

You become free.

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody,

Please leave a review over at podchaser.

Com and if you have any questions,

You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776 or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at your life in process.

Com.

I want to thank my team,

Craig,

Angela Stubbs,

Ashley Hyatt,

And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell and Branch for his original music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.