Breath, Light & Vastness Of Samadhi With Richard Shankman

We can be particularly hard on ourselves and judge ourselves by how well or poorly,

Good or bad we think we're showing up or doing it,

Whatever the it is.

And I understand that,

But how well or poorly we act in any situation is really,

That's just the conditioned patterns of our minds.

That's what we're working on is shifting the conditioned patterns.

And when that happens,

What I found useful is to connect back with what my sincere,

As a Dharma practitioner,

My sincere aspiration or intentions are.

And I'll bet everyone has a good intention and whatever your own languaging is of wanting to live in a way that creates less suffering in the world for yourself,

For others,

Wants to create more wellbeing for yourself and for others.

And if that's true for you,

Even when you're at your worst,

You can still know that you really do care about that intention and that's alive for you.

And I find it going back to that somehow and know that still is my good intention and I'm doing the best I can.

We're all just doing the best I can.

And then it is helpful so we're not too hard on ourselves and we can still stay attuned,

Let that intention kind of bolster us.

Holiness,

Welcome.

This is Josh of Integrating Presence.

And today I have Richard Schenkman with me and hopefully I am containing my enthusiasm or bringing enough equanimity to my enthusiasm because seriously,

I really appreciate this.

I've been doing exclusively for,

Since I've practiced every day since 2012,

The last couple of years,

My practice has been exclusive on Anapana,

Around the Anapana spot in the Pa'ak tradition,

Just to give Richard a little bit of background here before I get going and to make this kind of more real.

And I still haven't gotten nimitta in this tradition.

So that's kind of my bias a little bit,

But I am also open to this huge topic on many levels from the text,

But we're gonna focus more on practice today.

So I'm already jumping into it,

But I'll throw it back here to Richard and say,

Richard,

What's going on today and how are you?

Well,

I'm well,

Happy to be with you.

And I'll just say my whole practice has been mindfulness of breathing meditation for 55 years.

That's a long time.

This is great.

And I've done other practices,

But really that has been,

And my experience has been,

It just opens up.

And I think any practice we do can be a doorway to open into everything.

It's a question of finding each person's best way.

And so for those for whom mindfulness of breathing in its many,

Many varieties is a good practice.

And I think it is probably for many,

Many people that it's been a doorway kind of to everything.

So really,

That's been my practice.

Of course,

Your name comes up in Dharma talks from time to time,

Especially when people talk about Samadhi.

Well,

I came up,

So first I'll just say my original practice actually started in 1970 and I was more in a,

What would you say,

Hindu oriented yoga traditions.

I lived in an ashram and actually I was doing mostly breath meditation.

It was a different tradition and different way of just framing everything.

And then it was in kind of the early or mid 70s,

I was still meditating,

But I ended up more in the Buddhist oriented,

Kind of Theravada oriented world.

And that's been kind of my world I've sort of lived in.

Of course,

Well,

I don't wanna get us too far off,

But having said that,

Of course,

As the practice becomes more and more alive,

You're not in any tradition anymore.

It's just the aliveness of being and where's Buddhism in that?

So that's a big topic.

People might say,

But wait a minute,

What do you mean?

But so to be honest with you,

Well,

It's too late,

I have to say now.

So people who I work with wouldn't really know this,

But I actually don't identify as a Buddhist anymore.

Nobody would know that.

This is the tradition,

It's the formulation,

It's the framework,

Tremendous respect and gratitude for it.

But in my own self,

Like in just the moment,

In just the aliveness of being,

There's no.

.

.

You wouldn't say it's a Buddhist thing,

But we still don't wanna throw the path out too soon.

Well,

Yeah,

You make good points.

Even the Buddha said,

Eventually the draft.

.

.

Easy for me to say.

Well,

The raft,

Right?

The raft of Dhamma has to be left behind on the further shore,

Right?

So there's that.

And I always tell people basically the same thing.

I don't consider myself a Buddhist.

I study and practice this primarily right now.

But to me,

I don't even look at Buddhism as a religion anyway.

To me,

One way to frame it maybe is one approach of how to see into the true nature of reality,

The way things actually are,

And the best way to go about doing that for my own wellbeing and for the wellbeing of others,

And especially in the longterm.

So I can definitely resonate with this.

I think you're alluding to even going beyond that as well.

Of course,

Let's not jump out of the raft too soon.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I'm still definitely on the raft by all means.

Also,

I wanna say,

I hope just to clarify,

I'm not making any claims for myself.

I don't make any claims.

I would say,

You know,

Anyway,

I feel like I'm very appreciative and gratified and about what the practice has done and where it's kind of done for me and gotten.

So in that way,

It's been great.

And I'm not making any,

I don't make claims about it in any way.

Well,

I just wanna,

And that's not me.

I'm not,

That's not code for,

I really am making claims,

But I'm too humble to say it.

I mean,

For real.

Yeah,

No,

It's a good point.

And I'm heavy with disclaimers myself a lot of times.

So it's really helpful that,

You know,

And I'll just say right now,

This is,

Of course,

It should be obvious,

But this is my current understanding where I'm at now.

I'm open to,

You know,

Being completely wrong with everything and moving beyond that.

But for right now,

This is the best I'm able and,

You know,

Accessible.

So let's jump in here at the Anapana.

I guess we can reference maybe the Anapanasati Sutta.

And I think to keep it even more accessible and still foundational for anybody doing this practice,

We can kind of just stay maybe more focused towards the opening part of it,

You know?

So I guess maybe one place to jump in here is how,

Like,

What are some kind of fundamental similarities and differences between,

You know,

The tradition you're in before,

The Hindu maybe oriented tradition,

And where the Buddhist tradition,

And I'll just,

You know,

Some ways we can answer here,

We can answer for the absolute complete beginner that has no idea of any of this stuff.

We've got maybe more of an intuitive level of how much we can sense into who may be listening to this and maybe in the future,

And maybe with repeated listenings.

I don't know if that's a little bit too much magical thinking or not,

But then we have,

And then another layer is just all,

No holds barred,

Use as much technical language and as depth and breadth as you want.

It doesn't matter if anybody understands it or not,

You know,

So any of those approaches or levels are completely,

I mean,

I would encourage any of those levels or anything else too,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Well,

There are two things there.

I know you brought up that you're gonna wanna,

I get into like actual some hands-on nuts and bolts about actually breath meditation.

Yes.

And so,

Yeah,

I know that'll be a big,

But you brought up the first part you brought up.

So I just wanna say,

I'm gonna say something that I think I don't intend it to be controversial and I'm sort of prefacing here,

But,

And you know,

By the way,

If I say something and someone doesn't like it,

That's okay,

You just move on.

Exactly,

Well,

We don't,

I don't shy away from controversy at all on this.

I mean,

Everybody that I have on is civil and diplomatic about controversy too,

You know,

But we don't shy away or run away from it either.

Yeah,

I say that,

Okay,

So now that I've said that,

It feels a little risky,

But I'm just gonna say it.

So I consider Buddhism,

Well,

More the Dharma or the path in any of its forms,

You know,

Buddhism is a big,

Big world,

Right?

Many,

Anyway,

It's a big world.

In any of its form to be a complete path,

But a narrow path.

And what I mean by that is this is the part that I think might feel a little,

I hope it doesn't seem disrespectful because I don't mean it that way.

You know,

As in many traditions,

You know,

Buddhism has a certain idea of where it wants to end people.

Traditionally,

The idea is what they might call Nibbana or they use the term the deathless,

And you'll hear this kind of language of ending the cycle of births and deaths and all of that.

So all of that stuff is for sure real,

No question about it.

But I would,

So,

You know,

There's a tension point here,

Not a tension,

That's not the right way to say it.

I think there's sort of two parts that can seem at odds,

But I think there's a way to come together.

One is we want to have an idea of practicing in a tradition or a system of where it's aiming.

And so we already come to it.

We might hear a teacher or teaching about,

What is it about,

What are you trying to have happen?

Where are you aiming the practice?

So there's that.

But then right along with that,

Because the world of Samadhi is so vast,

The things that can happen and just the world of spirituality is so,

It's just wondrous and amazing.

It can open in a lot of ways that may not align with a predetermined idea of what's supposed to happen.

And so then the question is,

How much do we stay?

Do we aim ourselves knowing whatever's happening?

We keep aiming back to some idea where we think we want to head.

And a lot of teachers are very clear about that.

And we need those teachers to be clear and we want for sure.

And how much do we allow the inner unfolding,

The way to reveal itself and we follow.

So there's knowing we're aiming and how much to follow.

And I think we have to kind of bring a little,

And if I can,

I'll just give you one,

Can I just give one quick example?

Is that all right?

Please,

Yes,

Please.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So this is an example.

Just a few months ago,

Someone whom I work with in their meditation called me from a retreat.

And there were teachers there and for whatever,

Anyway,

She called me.

And she said,

So she's right in the Buddhist traditional Theravada Pali Buddhist Dharma world.

And she called me,

She used very non-Buddhist language.

She said,

She'd gotten in some deep state,

Some jhana kind of states and said,

This was her language.

A shaft of divine light has entered her body.

And I'm thinking,

Well,

You know,

That sounds pretty nice.

The next day she calls me again.

She said,

It's changed now.

Now,

Instead of being a shaft of light,

Her whole body has become filled with a body of divine light.

And then she said,

Mother Mary appeared to her.

And she said,

I don't know what that's about because she didn't have any relationship.

She's not a Christian,

No relationship to Mother Mary,

But it was Mother Mary and she was beckoning her,

Drawing her to merge in divine love.

What should I do?

And she had gone to the teachers and they had said,

No,

No,

No,

You're not supposed to have that because you're gonna cling to,

But they got off and whatever.

And you're supposed to be just letting go.

I forgot exactly.

And I'm not criticizing those teachers.

I understand that they were teaching from what their way and that's fine.

And what I said to her was,

I said,

Look,

If your body becomes a body of divine light and then Mother Mary appears to you,

Drawing you to merge in divine love,

You do that.

And I said to her,

It was so obvious,

The goodness and the rightness of it,

But that doesn't fit a traditional kind of Buddhist or maybe thing.

So then that's the kind of thing.

So the way can reveal itself in just amazing ways and I'll just end by this.

I know I'm going on a little bit here.

Is again,

Us Buddhists,

We like to think,

Well,

We've got the real highest and I think there's value in that,

But I think it's much bigger and more vast than any one view.

Anyway,

So.

No,

This is a really good point.

And I've done a few online things with Richard and I love this.

He's mentioned this before.

And I think this is a really good jumping in point for lots and lots of things.

Yes,

I think it even,

Maybe even more strict when I hear reports from,

Let's just,

I might as well just use different traditional names here.

The,

You know,

The possible style of Goenka,

Where the teacher is not even there anymore.

And from what I understand,

I haven't done one myself,

But they wheel out a television.

I hope I'm okay with saying this.

And,

You know,

There is no real living teacher.

They defer to his original teachings,

Which I can see pros and cons,

But when people are having,

And there's quite a lot of interesting experiences I hear can come up during Goenka retreats,

But they seem like they,

You know,

Where's the living teacher that can go in?

So that,

I would say even more extreme than what you're talking about.

And you're right.

So on one hand,

We have the Samadhi where,

You know,

Samatha practices that can get very kind of focused,

You know,

And laser beam focused and stable and exclusive on one object.

But the other end of that is what that does,

Or I don't know if that's the cause of condition for it,

But the states of Samadhi and the doors that can open,

At least in my experience,

I've noticed that,

And I'm not claiming certain types of Jhanas yet either.

It's just the perception can become so malleable and so expanded and so many more choices become available.

And just by,

I think some people's nature,

When you get into really deep and subtle realms,

Then certain phenomena that come up are not necessarily in the canon.

You know,

We think of the teaching with the handful of leaves and even though the Buddha knew all this vast knowledge,

He stuck to one of the most important things that he said and only taught that,

But he knew about all,

I would just assume,

Right?

But he didn't go into it.

But however,

For yogis,

We have some of these experiences happen.

And Richard,

I'm no stranger to this.

The people that I talk to in the circles are very bizarre.

And actually,

I might even flip this around a little bit from some of the accounts that I've heard here,

That even there'll be some interfaces with some beings that come in pretending to be vessels of light,

But are actually cloaking themselves in this.

And for some practitioners,

They will investigate it a little bit further and see something else behind this appearance that they're cloaking.

And I'm not saying that's what happened in this case,

But what I'm saying is I just wanna echo your point that,

Yeah,

The map is way bigger,

I think,

Than I think we're led to believe,

Especially in Western circles where there's so many academics involved.

And not to knock that,

We've got a lot of,

But their rear is on the line a lot of times to keep tenure where some of these things are just off the table to talk about,

Because in a rational scientific mind,

They can't really mention these things,

A fear of losing.

I know it's gotten a little bit better.

So we need really deep practitioners,

I think,

From all walks of life.

And we need,

I think,

Each other to check.

And of course,

Everything needs to be verified by the wise.

When we get into territories like this,

We do need alternative supports and people opening up to them,

Just because I feel it's so unbalanced in the West these days.

And I push my teacher to talk more about these things.

I think it can ultimately be a distraction,

But just due to the unbalanced nature right now,

I feel a more openness and willingness to explore these things just because it's been so scientifically materialist-based that these things need to be opened up to more in the West,

Really.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Well,

And there were a couple of things there that kind of struck me.

One is you mentioned the Goinga tradition,

Which is a good example.

And I know plenty of people for whom that's the practice they should be doing.

It's really,

It's great for them,

But for a lot of people,

It isn't.

And they're an example of what I call a one-size-fits-all practice.

That's not disparaging in any way.

That's fine,

Because what they're saying is they're very pure to a particular way.

And they're saying,

Hey,

If you want to come practice with us,

This is what it is,

And this is what you do.

And then you can go check that out.

And if that works,

Great.

The problem,

And it's not a problem,

But the only thing about that is it does not matter what the practice is.

No matter what,

It's going to work for some people and for other people.

It's just not,

It's not good.

It doesn't matter what it is.

And so that's where I think people who don't know and are new or can get into trouble because they don't realize that,

And they think,

Oh,

There's something wrong with me.

It happens in the POWOC tradition too.

I know you,

And I'm not trying to get into your personal practice or anything like that.

I don't know you enough to do that.

No,

Please,

It's on the table if you want to.

Yes,

So,

Yeah.

Well,

All I would say is I've known a lot of POWOC practitioners.

POWOC's method,

Which,

By the way,

In my book,

I've interviewed him,

And being in his presence,

I don't want to do his practice,

But when I was with him,

There was something palpable,

And I thought,

I want what he's got.

But the doorway in isn't his way.

And actually,

I know people,

POWOC is kind of funny because he tends to sort of have this certain way,

Like you have to do breath meditation.

Not good for everyone.

I mean,

You can do these four elements and other stuff too,

But you breath meditation,

And you got to pay attention to the breath in a very specific way.

And I know people who've gotten,

Through his whole system,

Authorized by POWOC as having,

One guy told me,

I was talking to him when I was doing my book,

And he said,

Yeah,

And he was someone who was,

I wanted to talk to him because he had been authorized by POWOC as having gone through all of POWOC's jhanas.

But he said,

Now listen,

Don't tell POWOC.

But what actually happened was he started seeing,

Right in the third eye area,

A blue dot,

And it was very compelling,

And he just kind of went with that.

And that's what,

And he goes,

But then he got into what POWOC said was his real jhana.

But he says,

Now don't tell POWOC.

But I didn't tell POWOC,

That's how he did it.

So even with POWOC,

It shows that,

Even though he's a great master,

But we,

Anyway,

So anyway.

But- No,

It's a good point.

Yes.

Yeah,

Yeah.

The other thing I just wanted to say,

Not to belabor on that,

Is as with all systems,

POWOC has a very specific idea around samadhi and jhana.

And it turns out,

I don't know if you want to get into this,

But the deeper stages of samadhi,

There's at least two main categories we can put them in and how they unfold that are equally deep.

People tend to think,

Oh,

Well,

The POWOC is just deeper.

Not deeper,

Different.

And I can tell you why,

If you want.

And most people,

The POWOC way,

You have to try it,

If you're drawn to it,

And see.

And you'll know if it's work.

Most people are never going to get a visual,

Nimitta has nothing to do with how deep their practice is.

The nimitta manifests in many,

Felt sense in the body.

So it's just not going to get a visual.

For visual people,

They will.

Most people aren't going to get what we call the narrow,

One-pointed ekagata.

They'll get an open,

Broader,

But they're still just as ekagata,

If people may not know the term.

So it's a lot of flavors for it.

So I don't know,

Josh,

You may very well be getting into what I would call a sutta jhana.

It may just not be a vasudhimagga jhana.

I mean,

I don't know.

Yeah,

No,

And so,

Yeah,

Let me give you a little background here.

A lot of things.

And before all this,

Though,

You said the narrow path,

And that's actually my ex-partner described Theravada as the narrow path.

It's considered the lesser vehicle,

And Mahayana is considered a greater vehicle.

So for me,

That makes sense,

That it's more of a straight,

Not everybody can do it.

That's a whole nother thing.

Maybe that's not what you meant by that.

That's not what I meant.

Okay,

That's not what you meant.

That's fine,

You can say what you mean.

It reminded me of that,

Though,

But yeah,

I kind of see where you- I meant something different,

Which I can explain,

But that was your way.

I like what you said,

Too.

Well,

Yeah,

I think maybe both apply,

But I'll give you a chance to go back and say that.

So yeah,

The paak,

As far as what I noticed,

Oh,

And I'm sorry here.

I forgot to,

I'm getting a call here,

And I forgot to mute or turn off this.

So sorry for the technical difficulties,

Which,

By the way,

Richard and I,

Richard was experiencing technical difficulties,

And I didn't say that because it was seamless behind the scenes,

But I think it's worth pointing out that this happens to me sometimes,

And I just take it as maybe a sign that this is an important conversation.

Okay,

So now- Both things happened.

Exactly,

You know,

Anitra,

Right?

So the blue dot,

Though,

From what you said,

Really great things that I want to hear,

And I tell people I won't talk about jhana solo because it's so controversial.

It's almost like a Buddhist trigger word for some,

Even nimitta- It shouldn't be,

But it is.

It shouldn't be,

Of course not,

Exactly,

And even the word nimitta is a trigger word,

But I think people are getting better,

But I talk to other practitioners and teachers about it,

Of course,

And I would say,

Yeah,

The things that I was experiencing in more of what's known as sutta jhana,

Which is not as strict criteria,

Yeah,

I thought that I was,

You know,

Experiencing,

You know,

What was described as jhana by a lot of those other,

You know,

Folks,

But then when I get to this really more narrow criteria,

I don't even know if narrow,

Different criteria of what some people call visuddhimagga jhana,

Right,

Or whatever we want to call it that Paak uses,

It's usually light-based,

And I love this reference about visual because I've noticed before I go into my regular practice,

If I do another practice outside of it and focus more on visual phenomena,

Then I tend to have more kind of light arise,

But it still hasn't stabilized,

And from what I've heard,

This notion of a dot,

Or a blue light,

Right,

That is maybe considered a nimitta for some,

Too,

And then once it's stabilized,

Then you can use that as the meditation object,

And- Yeah,

Yeah.

Yes,

Hardly any people will ever get that,

But there are some who do.

So maybe we can talk about that.

So why you feel that this is,

And it makes sense to me,

But maybe you can go into more detail about how this is,

For some visual people,

It's more,

You know,

Or it's more accessible,

This type,

I would just say because it's,

You know,

It involves light in a visual nimitta,

But for some people,

You don't feel it's like this,

And I do wanna echo,

Too,

That skillful means,

Right?

So yes,

Skillful means is where it's at,

And I think that some people would be maybe better off,

Depending on their disposition,

Where they're at,

Too.

There's also something to say about continued effort.

Where I came to this,

Though,

Richard,

And I need to take a pause here,

While I do something else in the household,

I'm so sorry for the interruptions I experienced in today,

But everything seems almost on a conceptual level,

So this is where,

When you get into,

Once you pass the Samatha stage in Pa'ak,

You get into discerning ultimate materiality and ultimate mentality,

Which is not a concept,

Apparently,

And so,

And then more difficulty for,

Or challenge for me,

Not difficulty,

Is that I practice and live more in the Thai forest tradition,

Where I have to be careful not to get too much into Pa'ak stuff in Thai forest tradition,

So it's a balancing act.

Oh,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Well,

Let me just back up here.

So,

I can just say where I come from as a,

Both as a practitioner and as a teacher,

Getting back to this notion that I mentioned earlier about this kind of bringing together these two aspects of having an idea of where you're aiming,

But also allowing just what's happening to reveal itself in kind of a path,

Presents itself that we follow.

What I do is I definitely have ideas,

I start off,

Not what should happen,

But I want to help people work in a way to help their minds start to stabilize,

And that's the Samadhi part,

Start to grow.

We can get in a whole nother conversation because I don't actually separate out what you'd call mindfulness,

Concentration,

Insight,

And the heart qualities.

They're actually,

They're not the same thing,

But they're all,

You can't really,

They're all come in there.

So,

I don't,

You,

A lot of people will separate them with separate ways of practice.

That's totally fine.

For me,

They're all there,

And you get the best of all of it.

So,

We start by,

And so even with that,

I don't come at it with a predetermined idea.

What I do is when I meet with people,

Oftentimes they know,

But if they don't know,

Then I want to say,

Well,

Let's find together your best doorway in,

The best practice for you that may not be breath meditation.

Some people,

I don't know,

It could be mantras or meditation on sound or body scans.

There's a lot of practices.

Most people,

I think breath probably is good.

And then how do you work with the breath?

It turns out it actually does not matter where in the body you,

There's nothing special about here.

It's just a sensation.

Actually with Pawok,

It's not even a sensation.

It's a mental idea because he wants you to be out in space.

You know,

How do you do that?

I don't know,

But if you can do it,

God bless you,

Go for it.

So,

Whatever.

And so we help people find their practice.

It could shift over time,

Sure.

Everybody can find a good practice.

Sometimes they need a little help.

We can always get there.

We might have to do some experiments.

We'll try this and we see,

But we can get there.

And then once that happens,

We see how is it unfolding?

And we let the present moment experience reveal itself and it tells what's needed next.

So in that way,

We're doing two things.

It's helping us to follow the deepening,

What helps the deepening of Samadhi.

And it also helps us then stay attuned to what's happening.

What are the experiences that are as the Samadhi is deepening?

And then that's kind of revealing itself.

And then sometimes I do want to help people say,

You know,

I do think we should steer,

Not go that way and steer it back here,

Which you can do.

And there's this a big topic.

I'm just speaking so generally here.

I can't get specific,

But let's steer it back because that seems the way.

And I've actually had people not follow my advice and kind of get off in the things that maybe weren't so great.

And it's like,

I told you,

But anyway,

We need to steer them back.

So that way,

Sometimes we still do want to steer people,

But right along that way,

We're letting the organicity or the wonder,

The magic,

Not magic,

But unfold and reveal itself.

And they're really connecting with their own deepest inner guidance teacher.

This might sound a little new agey,

But really the ways there,

And it can look a lot of ways.

This is what I meant by the way,

When I said about,

Well,

I appreciated what you said about a narrow path because it can be a narrow path right to Nibbana,

Right?

For sure.

You didn't use the word,

But I think that's what you meant.

I mean,

In a different way.

I mean,

Even the idea of what we would call,

Some people might know this term Nibbana without remainder,

Or what we call ending the cycle,

The deathless ending the cycle of birth and deaths.

Actually,

Let me back up for a second.

So here,

I'm going to be controversial again.

So,

You know,

In the Buddhist tradition,

It's said,

If you could,

This is the tradition speaking,

If you could see as the Buddha could see,

Immense incalculable lifetimes of all the beings,

You would know that the only thing that you really want to do is like end this process,

Right?

Two problems with that.

Okay,

I'm going to say it.

Number one,

We don't know what the mind of the Buddha was.

I don't mean that disrespectively.

Nobody knows.

And are we really claiming that he actually had direct knowledge into every living being,

The billions upon billions you've ever existed,

Who do now or who ever will?

Maybe,

I don't know.

But so that's the tradition talking.

Secondly,

You can dissolve out of existence.

It's a way of speaking into the deathless.

It's not a thing that you can't go into.

It's just a way of speaking,

But that process can happen.

And then you can read,

Come back into being and know what had happened.

And absolutely that's real.

However,

In that,

You know,

To know that if you could really see what's going on,

You'd want to just snuff out and end it.

That's,

Nobody knows that either.

I don't care if they're sitting up on the stage with a shaved head and dressed in robes.

They do not know that.

It's religious belief.

And I've had these things.

Well,

Now I'm making a complaint.

This can happen.

Not to be confused with a cessation,

Which is a different thing,

But they can mask as each other.

So that's a different conversation.

So that can happen.

If you're opening into the divine,

It's a different feeling.

And there you're not thinking of,

It's a different way.

It's like going to,

This is kind of weird.

It's popped in my head.

Actually,

It's kind of nice.

So we'll see.

Going to nirvana is like going to zero.

Opening to the divine is like going to the infinite.

And so there are sort of two ways.

And,

You know,

So that's what I mean by narrow.

It's like,

If you want to have a certain idea,

It's beautiful.

You go for that.

But it's,

No matter what way you're viewing it,

It's not the entirety.

These are,

Wow,

A lot of great points here and a lot of things to address.

You know,

It reminds me- You know,

I'm gonna get in trouble.

Oh,

It's okay.

We're supposed to be forgiving anyway,

Right?

So,

You know,

This,

It reminds me of the Nisargadatta Maharaj quotes where,

You know,

Wisdom tells me I'm nothing.

Love tells me I'm everything.

Between these two,

My life flows.

And so as far as nirvana goes,

You know,

And the mind of the Buddha,

And I asked my teacher this,

And I asked him how he perceives the 31 realms and like,

Where does Mount Simeru,

Mount Meru,

Fit into this whole thing?

And he basically,

I don't,

I think it was maybe a non-answer answer,

But we don't really know the mind of a Buddha and how it maps on different cosmologies,

Which is one- There you go,

That's more what I'm saying.

Yeah,

And that's one way.

And,

You know,

To fit it into some other things in the canon,

He said there's no discernible beginning,

No discernible end.

So in that sense,

We don't really know the extent.

What it said,

Though,

He wasn't all knowing,

But what he aimed the mind at,

He could then penetrate and know.

So it's not like this omniscient all the time.

So in that case,

You would have to be directly- We don't know that either,

But sure.

We don't know that either,

That's right.

It is saying there's a lot we don't know.

And so that's it.

The one thing that sticks out,

Another thing that sticks out,

We're going to these more vast vistas here,

Is that I don't remember too many mentions of divinity in the canon.

We have the divine eye,

Which is really interesting,

I think.

We have that notion- Yeah,

But that just has a very specific meaning.

Exactly.

That's what we're talking about.

Because- I always wondered about that.

You know,

Look,

When dissolving away,

And there's only the deathless,

Which is,

Again,

We're using these words for things that are really ineffable.

Exactly,

They can only point at best.

But there's no problem,

Because there's nobody there to have a problem,

Right?

Well,

That's- It's just no problem.

But it's so fine.

And,

You know,

Whatever way people go,

I respect it.

It's beautiful,

And it's laudable,

And we want to support people.

But then,

You know,

People are having,

Whether it's happening through meditation or other traditions,

Or even,

I don't want to get off into like psychoactive substances,

But I'll just say,

People are doing things through that,

Too,

That are opening and that's coming into dharma.

So the realm of what's possible,

I think,

Is quite,

People are experiencing on some vast ways.

And then they see,

How do these map together?

And then you have to,

We have to feel our own way.

I would agree for the most part with this.

And especially,

I think,

These days,

Where we've kind of been dumbed down a lot and constricted and narrowed,

Now it's a time to go back and open up.

The one thing from the canto that kind of blew my mind and put things into perspective,

Because we talk about this tetralemma of,

Someone asked the Buddha one time,

You know,

I think,

You know,

After enlightenment,

Will I exist,

Will I not exist?

Will I both exist and not exist?

Or will I neither exist and not exist?

And he said,

It doesn't fit the case.

It does not apply.

So then all the things we're kind of talking about here,

They're just not really fathomable.

And it doesn't,

You know,

We talk,

So it cuts for me,

That one cuts off a lot of proliferation around this topic that,

You know,

That I want to try to pin it down with existentialism or not,

You know,

In all these different combinations.

And it just,

I just,

It blows my mind to think that none of that even applies.

So it's,

You know,

And he just,

You know,

He laid out a path and then once that's reached,

The holy life's lived,

There's no more work to be done,

But he doesn't go into the detail about after that,

You know,

And then the Mahayana view of all that.

So it gets,

It can,

There's a lot to this,

You know,

And.

And there's another aspect to this,

Which is,

I think,

Not really separate,

But it's another way of speaking.

So,

You know,

We've been using,

We've been kicking around ideas that,

Well,

I would use labels from what we've been talking about,

You know,

That we'll use what,

What?

Enlightenment,

Idealization.

Awakening.

Or some of the terms.

Liberation,

Sure.

Well,

So liberation is an interesting one because in my mind,

This may not be other people,

I tend to use it as something connected,

But actually different because liberation,

And I was about to say,

Actually,

I'm glad you brought that up,

That to me,

A simple way to bring this right back down,

Very accessible is if we use this framework,

What I would call liberation through non-clinging,

It kind of encompasses everything because it's,

We do these practices of non-clinging,

Letting go,

Letting go,

Letting go,

And it gets right down to everyday life and it carries all the way up through whether it's the divine or the deathless or anything like,

Or into,

Or just as deep of a liberation as we just move about in daily life.

And it's very,

And that way,

And so it's a different way to hold things.

That's tends to be for me now,

My own practice.

You know,

I still meditate and,

You know,

I don't know what would happen if I stopped.

I don't know,

I still do.

I haven't done that experiment,

But mostly my practice now is,

For me,

It's gotten very simple.

I just live and mostly,

You know,

It's pretty good.

And I move about and I'm,

You know,

Anybody's practiced for a long time,

You know,

That stream of Samadhi carries through,

The stream of wakefulness,

The stream of non-clinging,

It's very alive,

Right?

And so you're just,

It's kind of like that.

And you kind of cleaned out and there's,

And you're sort of emptied out.

Well,

You're kind of filled up to it.

Well,

That's,

Okay,

Sorry,

I'm getting,

That's kind of hard just to talk about.

But then you just live.

Anytime I end up in any kind of clinging or reactivity,

You know,

Pretty much,

You know it.

And during those times,

You know what to do and you can,

You let go.

When my heart's in ill will,

Open the heart.

So I mostly live.

And then when needed,

Let go,

Open the heart,

Let go,

Open the heart and live.

And so it's a very,

And I don't have to do it as a practice.

You just live.

As we all know,

A fruit of the practices,

The actual mindful knowing gets way better.

We claim you can never space out.

Okay,

We won't maybe go take it that far.

It gets pretty good.

If something's going on,

You know it,

And you're not entangled in it so much.

You just know,

Oh,

I got a mind of ill will here.

And you might even know,

You know,

I don't really want to let this go because that person really is a whatever.

And it's like,

Okay,

You know what to do.

Open the heart.

I'm in reactivity.

I don't like this.

You know,

I know what to do,

Let go.

So in that way,

To me,

It's kind of come full circle around and something that's actually very,

Very simple.

And this is so great because I often look for commonalities amongst all these different schools and religions.

And I think that's one that is more universal too.

You know,

We talked earlier about lineages and I like to say about preserving lineages so we have something to draw on so it just doesn't get this huge soup or gray hive mind type things.

But there's also something to be said about where's the commonality,

Where's the common language.

Of course,

Non-clinging,

Letting go is one of them.

And I like translating between people more on a divinity path with Buddhist language too and having these things talk and share amongst each other.

You know,

The Brahma Viharas are I think one of these commonalities too.

And so yeah,

All this stuff is really great.

And the non-clinging and this notion of an awakening of a Buddha,

Which means awake,

Right?

This is one thing that all the schools kind of acknowledge.

And I would say even the schools acknowledge Four Noble Truths,

At least in Buddhism,

Even if it is to completely say,

Oh,

There is no suffering in Mahayana or whatever,

No cause or whatever,

They're still acknowledged in some way.

So I think this is- Tell that to them when they're suffering.

Exactly,

Right?

I mean,

Come on,

Seriously.

How's that working for you?

Yeah,

Exactly.

So the Buddha was a pragmatist for sure.

But if it helps them let go to bring that in,

Then now it's a practical efficacy.

That's a really good point.

Very good point.

Okay,

So let's bring this back to the breath too.

And I just want to say from my own practice,

This is what I was doing for years too,

Richard,

Is kind of sitting down either right before formal sitting practice or during it,

Just kind of tapping into intuition and say,

Okay,

Like what's needed now?

Like where does the mind really have to,

I mean,

What does the practice look like now?

What's needed now?

And I was practicing like that for years and it served me fairly well.

But like I said earlier,

It kind of came down to,

I was just dealing in concepts,

You know?

And I was wondering,

And then you also mentioned,

And I think this is really important too,

You know,

Okay,

We can't just not have any kind of point or goal,

But then we also can't be like in our Western mindset where we're all goal oriented and goal driven and having all these metrics,

You know?

So,

You know,

Where's the practical balance in this?

You alluded to a lot of this and also the importance of a teacher too,

To,

You know,

Help nurture and bring forth an inner teacher but also get someone back on track and make sure that they're not completely off in the weeds.

And there's like a kind of a mirroring aspect,

You know,

In a guiding aspect and a really rooted in deep experiential practice and that has also other people checking them.

And so I think this comes in as well.

Yeah,

And how do we,

I guess just,

I wanna go into like the more of the nuts and bolts of Anapana too.

Sure,

Sure.

Like the big thing I think we come,

I think that's enough to comment on then we can get into nuts and bolts here.

I think,

And I know you wanna move more into nuts and bolts,

Which is great,

But just one thing you brought up,

You know,

I think the way I would kind of rephrase exactly what you were saying is,

You know,

It's interesting because you'll hear teachers use language like there's nothing to do,

Nothing to be,

Nowhere to go and that kind of language.

But at the same time,

We are on a path that is a path of development and is leading somewhere.

So in a way it can seem like,

Well,

Wait a minute,

We're kind of on a path and we're going somewhere and not going anywhere at the same time.

Well,

How can that be?

But actually,

And I can understand this,

But actually I do think those things,

I actually talk about this a lot.

Those things come together,

I think,

Quite nicely when we realize,

Of course we're on a path of development and cultivation that's leading somewhere.

So that's the getting somewhere part.

But the way we do that is just,

It's kind of a cliche,

The quality of how we're being here,

That's the not going anywhere.

So we're tending to the present moment,

Which really is all we have.

That's kind of a cliche,

But it's true.

We only have the present moment.

By being here without a sense of what's happening,

What's skillful,

What's wise,

What works best just for being here,

We both have the not over-striving,

Not over.

.

.

And the other thing is,

Sometimes people say,

Yeah,

I'm not supposed to want whatever.

Of course you want it.

Everybody wants,

Like Samadhi's great.

It's really pleasant.

Chanda.

Everybody wants it and everybody goes through clinging.

So it's,

They don't make a big deal about it.

It's all right.

Go ahead.

This is a whole nother thing.

I think teachers make too big of a deal about people not clinging.

I'm trying to be a little humorous,

But really I think,

You know what?

You just go ahead,

Cling away.

It's fine.

Now you're going to suffer,

But maybe that's how you learn.

So it's part of the path.

Of course,

Knowing suffering and ceasing suffering.

That's right.

And you talked about wholesome desires.

So we don't want to throw away that raft too early either.

There's a whole notion of,

Okay,

I've been trying to let this go and let go,

But it seems like it's clinging on to me.

And I've heard some teachings saying,

Well,

When the time's right,

Maybe what we're trying to let go of,

We'll let go of us,

Which I thought was an interesting way to flip it in perspective.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Because it's true,

Isn't it?

That there exactly,

There's times when,

It's one thing when we've lost our mindfulness,

We're just entangled in things and we just aren't clearly seeing what's happening.

And then there's a step when we know what's happening and we're clear and still we're either not able or willing or something's not there,

Still can't let go around it.

And then at some point it shifts,

It lets go of us,

Or we find the key or whatever it is,

And then it can happen.

So yeah,

We can totally,

That's the worst,

Right?

We see what's happening.

I can see I'm creating my own suffering right here and it's hard to let go.

But that's,

It's such a good sign because it's at that point,

It's as long as there's continued,

I think effort and practice,

It's only a matter of time before that happens because that's what's so great about awareness and knowing some,

Because then there's a chance to make a choice if the choice is involved,

That's right.

But sometimes maybe the paramy is not ripe enough or the insight hasn't sank deep into the bones or maybe there's some action we still need to take or whatever,

There's so many different causes and conditions and kind of mysterious processes that happen.

But I think for practitioners listening to this,

They can definitely relate to what we've been talking about here,

Yeah?

Yeah.

Okay,

So now I think maybe a good jumping in point here,

Of course,

That across all what constitutes jhana or not,

I think the commonality here is the jhanic factors.

Even in,

We hear about paak jhana or visuddhimagga jhana,

Right?

Or nimitta-based,

Light-based jhana.

It's,

From what I understand and I don't know from personal experience that the absorption is so deep that you're not supposed to check the jhanic factors.

You're supposed to have to emerge from jhana first and then in retrospect,

Look back and say,

Okay,

Check the jhanic factors,

Which I just like,

It's hard for me to fathom that.

That's such a deep concentration that it's not even possible to get knocked out through a sense of,

Like if somebody were to come up and hit you.

You know,

This classic story where Moggallana and Sariputra are sitting there and some,

I think,

Yaka or demon hits Sariputra on the head and he's unfazed and Moggallana tells him later,

Oh,

I can't believe,

You know,

There was a big yaka there and you got hit in the head and you didn't even notice it,

You know?

You're unfazed,

Your concentration is so strong.

He said,

Oh,

He's like,

Oh,

How amazing it is that you were able to see that yaka do that,

You know?

So- Right,

But what I would say is,

What you're getting to is different,

Not depths of samadhi,

But flavors.

So can I back up just for a moment here?

Would that be all right?

Yes,

Yes.

So the word samadhi,

You know,

We translate it as concentration.

I think it's probably,

We're stuck with it because everyone uses that,

But I think it's actually a quite terrible,

Because there are too many connotations in English.

Especially in the West,

Yeah.

Yes.

But it means undistracted.

So you've talked,

You've spoken since we,

During our time here,

About a particular flavor of undistracted where you can be so good at becoming undistracted on,

We call it a one thing.

We say,

It's not literally a point,

But it's on the one,

If you're seeing light and bliss,

It'll only be light and bliss,

Say,

Or something like that.

And you get so good that you stop noticing other things around you,

And that's the kind that you're talking about.

We call it like an exclusive one-pointed samadhi.

Because for you,

If that happens to that depth,

The changing flow of experience stops for you in your awareness while you're in that state.

But there's a different kind of samadhi that's just as deep of a stopping.

But rather than the being on a narrow,

On an object fixed like that,

The mind can be quite broad and inclusive and all experience are there,

But it's the mind itself that's unmoving and imperturbable,

Just as deep.

And matter of fact,

The way I think about it is,

So I don't know brain science,

What I'm about to say may not be actually how it works,

But I think the idea works,

That whatever it is in the brain centers that have you come to,

But we use this jhanic factor of ekagata,

We say one-pointedness or unification of mind,

Is the same in all these jhanas.

In this Vasudhimagga style,

The other brain centers along with the one-pointedness that allow you to have any other experiences come to quiescence and they can't arise,

Whereas in like a sutta kind of jhana,

Those can still operate,

Even though the depth of samadhi,

Undistractedness,

Utter,

Unmoving,

Fixed samadhi is the same depth as in the,

Now the Vasudhimagga people say,

No,

No,

No,

It's not,

It is.

They don't know,

It's the same depth.

In that way,

Rather than it being an exclusive samadhi,

I use the word for that,

I translate ekagata rather than one-pointedness in that style,

I'd call it unification of mind,

It's still a oneness.

The mind is completely unmoving,

But experiences come and go,

And in that way,

Actually all the insight stuff happens right there in the jhana.

So it's a different flavor of the way that ekagata,

The jhana factor,

This one-pointedness can manifest in two different ways.

Most people on their own,

You can steer it either way,

You'll naturally go in one direction,

And you can do that,

And it can be steered in the other direction,

That's a big topic,

How do you do that?

Most people on their own are gonna go into this,

What I'm calling inclusive unification of mind.

A relatively small percentage can go into,

This is why the Pawak way,

It works great in a respected path,

But for a small percentage of people,

We'll go in that way.

But it's not because they're better concentrators,

I mean,

They like to say that,

Because everybody,

Look,

We all wanna have the best and the deepest,

Come on,

We do.

So that's fine.

No,

And in the Vasudhi Maga says how rare it is,

They say,

You know,

Not deeper.

Different grade,

Yeah.

Not deeper.

So it's really interesting,

I even heard this called aware jhana,

And I kind of like that term,

Which you're talking about too,

Where there's still an amount of awareness there.

So I guess where the question that comes up next is why the confusion then in your opinion?

You know,

Why are there.

.

.

I have an opinion about that.

Well,

Yeah,

You can give opinion and give factual background too.

Sure.

Yeah,

Everything,

And then more if you want around this.

Sure,

I would say two things.

One is people are really practicing and experiencing in all of these different ways,

And that's what worked for them,

And they're teaching the way that worked for them.

So there's a range of experience,

But there's also,

If you're using the suttas or some texts,

Or tradition or formulation as your guide,

Well,

That'd be okay too,

If you wanna do that.

However,

There's a lot of places in the Pali text where what's being said is very clear,

But there's a lot of places where it's not clear,

And the definition of jhana is about as unclear as can be.

So by definition,

Jhana is a specific state of samadhi that matches the exact words in this phrase that's one sentence for each of the jhanas.

And so anything that matches those words is jhana.

Well,

If you go back and look at the words,

It's so vague that it does not give you much help at all.

We could get specific if you want.

So there's a huge range of experiences that match the verbal description,

Which means all of these different people from what we would call kind of light samadhi that I might not call as jhana to powwow,

All can legitimately be teaching jhana,

And it's not right or wrong.

It's just,

It matches the words.

It's jhana.

Now,

Back in the day,

They probably,

I'm guessing,

Had some shared understanding.

So fine,

But,

You know,

We're not there to have to chit-chat with those guys,

Well,

It was women too,

But yeah.

No,

That tends to be my current understanding too,

You know,

The questions of,

Well,

Why wasn't,

You know,

The Buddha gave very detailed,

Like on four foundations,

Four frames of reference of mindfulness,

Right?

Way more detailed and even anapana compared to jhana,

You know,

Just go find a secluded place and you're basically in first jhana.

I'm oversimplifying a little bit here,

But so the prevailing sentiment,

I think today in the West seems to be that,

Like you said,

Maybe during that time,

It was way more familiarity with that.

You didn't need to go into such vast,

Intricate detail about jhana.

The other thing I wonder about too on this is what happens if,

You know,

Let's just say the Buddha thought,

Well,

Maybe,

You know,

Maybe due to Aditya or the sasana of the Buddha,

Where things will change a lot.

And so he needed to be more,

Not as detailed because maybe what one part of the world with one person's energy system could get into jhana one way,

But then maybe in a different era,

In a different time,

You know,

It changed significantly in a different area of the region to what,

So maybe that's a possibility.

I don't know.

So we look at the word jhana.

I think it's from the,

What a root word,

Jayati,

Which means to like steadily burn.

Is that right?

So it's actually,

It turns out a lot of people say that.

I spoke with a Sanskrit scholar and he said,

Actually that's coming from a different root actually.

So it's not that.

Okay.

So yeah,

Say more about that if you'd like,

Yeah.

Well,

I don't,

I can't go back to the etymology.

I could look up some books and do that.

It just means to meditate.

Yes.

That's it.

It's now.

It's right,

Yeah.

Again,

There are places in the Pali texts,

A few places where there's a wrong jhana,

Like when the Buddha,

You know,

You see the statues when they show his body was like a skeleton when he was doing those ascetic practices.

And in the text,

It says he was doing a breathingless jhana that was not,

Like not good.

So there's a few places,

But overwhelmingly,

Almost all of us were referring to what we call the four jhanas there.

And then the interesting thing is also,

I spoke with this when I was writing my book,

I spoke with Peter Skilling.

I don't know if he's still,

I guess he's still with us on the surf.

I don't know.

He's a great Sanskrit and Pali scholar.

He used to be the president of the Pali Text Society for a while.

And he's,

Peter Skilling,

If anyone wants to look him up.

And I had a conversation and he said to me that at least two of the phrases,

Two of the word of the four of the jhana factors,

Vittaka,

Vichara are extremely problematic and we do not know the original meaning.

And so when you look at the way it's defined,

There's two,

We don't have to get into it unless you want to,

But there's two groups of different piles of translations that each have these two sets of meanings that are very different.

And because people just take it that way,

Maybe that's what their experience was.

We don't know what the original meaning was and the scholars can't get to it.

Yeah,

That's fascinating.

Problems.

Sure.

Actually,

This is,

To me,

As we talk about jhana,

This is absolutely fundamental because these are the first two jhanic factors.

And just a little bit of background,

There's a site called pure dhamma,

Is it .

Net,

.

Org,

Where he really points to this thing of possible misinterpretations,

Early interpretations of the canon in the Buddhist language that a lot of these,

The interpreters back then,

They didn't really have a huge comprehensive understanding of a lot of the things.

And he said there's a lot of fundamental things they got wrong,

According to him,

And he goes into detail,

But that's kind of an aside.

So this is kind of bring potential validation to it,

Richard's saying.

So jump into the talk of a chart,

Because I think,

From the standard that I've heard,

It's applied,

It's the same thought,

Or somewhere along these lines,

But apparently there's a lot more to it than just that.

Well,

Right.

So the translations,

When I was writing my book,

I went and looked up every English translation,

As many sources as I could find.

And so in a Palak style,

Which is a Vasudhi Maga,

Now,

Here's one other thing we should say.

Are your viewers,

Are they,

Do they know about what the Vasudhi Maga is?

Well,

I would share some of them are,

So you can maybe give a brief thing,

Because what we talk about in the suttas versus all the different commentaries and sub-commentaries,

Quite a different thing a lot of times,

But yeah.

Well,

I'll just bring it in.

I mean,

Obviously,

You know this,

Josh,

But I'll just say for your audience.

So we're talking in a tradition that's been preserved in the language Pali.

So it's Pali text,

And the suttas are these discourses or teachings,

Just like sutra in Sanskrit,

It's sutta in Pali.

And so those,

Of course,

Were an oral tradition for many centuries.

I think they were probably written down three,

Four,

500 years after the Buddha,

And they got written.

And then there was a,

So that's kind of what we're talking about,

But then there was a whole commentarial tradition where people were sincerely trying to come to the real meaning in their own understanding.

And so,

You know,

We're really trying,

Honestly,

And got commentaries.

So we don't know,

But five,

Six,

700 years after the Buddha,

I mean,

A long time,

Buddhaghosa,

Who was a well-known commentator,

Wrote this,

It's not a commentary,

It's a treatise,

But it pulls in the commentarial understanding into a meditation manual with a V called the Visuddhimagga.

It's kind of a long tongue twister,

But it means path of purification.

And so in Theravada Buddhism now,

It's kind of these two camps.

This one camp is,

If you want to understand the way to meditate,

The Visuddhimagga is explaining to you what the suttas meaning,

You have to filter it through the lens of the Visuddhimagga.

That's fine,

That's a system.

There's the whole other camp that says,

Well,

The Visuddhimagga got it wrong.

For me personally,

I wouldn't use the word got it wrong.

It's just another development,

But it is different.

The suttas is,

And a lot of the reason I wrote my book was there was so much confusion.

And so I said,

Wait a minute,

Let's go back and pretend there's no Visuddhimagga.

Just let's look,

What does the suttas say?

And then I said,

Let's presume there's no suttas.

What does the Visuddhimagga say?

We can compare them.

And what it turns out is they're just two different,

They have some overlap,

But two quite different systems of how to practice,

What jhana is,

The place of insight.

And they're just different systems.

So we have to be careful judging one from the view perspective of the other system.

We can just respect them both,

But the idea is we hold them.

So in the Visuddhimagga understanding,

Is this okay that I'm doing it like a jhana?

Absolutely,

This is great Richard,

Thanks.

In the Visuddhimagga understanding,

Vittaka,

Vichara,

Those first two jhana factors are translated.

So another thing is they should be,

According to Peter Skilling,

They should be taking as a pair,

They go together,

Vittaka,

Vichara.

And it means connecting and sustaining.

There's other ways,

It's like aiming.

But basically it's a mental process of directing your attention,

That's the connecting onto your meditation object,

And then mentally holding it there on the object.

That's what vittaka,

Vichara is.

The whole other understanding,

Which the suttas don't give any explanation,

But I think of it more in a sutta is that there's other mental activities.

And so people translate it as reflection and discursive thought,

Thinking and pondering even I've heard.

It's just other mental activity.

So for example,

I'll just give you an example.

You can be a jhana,

And this is an interesting thing.

And we say,

Well,

The mind gets to a place where it's unmoving,

Which is true.

But then it's very interesting because there's another part of the mind that can,

It's not a lot,

But can move.

I'm saying it verbally,

It may not be verbal,

But it might be like,

Huh,

This is interesting,

Or what's that,

Or let me feel into that.

And you can actually direct your mind and use it to move through jhana to see what's going on,

Investigate.

So what's going on?

Are there like two minds there?

And anybody I've ever talked to about said,

Yeah,

I know,

I know.

There's the unmoving,

And then there's another part on top of it.

So it's that part on top of it that,

Now,

That's other mental activity,

And it could even be a little light verbal,

Or this is interesting.

Let me let go of this,

Or let me incline this way a little bit.

That would be the vitakavi char that's more than just connecting and sustaining on the object.

So you can come into practice holding either view that's flavoring,

Influencing how you're gonna practice.

And depending on how it unfolds,

You can look to see how it's presenting it.

So there's a lot of ways to work with this.

It's not one way.

And some teachers will say,

No,

No,

You gotta go back to one way.

Great.

Others like me are saying,

Well,

Let's just look to see how it is.

Great.

So again,

It's a big world.

Really good points about this vitakavi chara.

And yeah,

I've heard the other translations you said as well.

So the very practical thing you mentioned here,

It reminds me of Ajahn Suchart,

Who I've done a few Zooms with him.

And I think how he translates a gagata is one mind.

And I never heard it put like that before.

So what you're explaining there is kind of like two different minds.

You kind of almost have like a supervisory or something other than.

And well,

I will ask you here in practice,

Do those mind streams,

I don't know if we wanna call it,

Do they ever unify?

And that doesn't happen.

That goes away.

And so like maybe the second jhana experience when vitakavi chara are supposed to fall away,

Does what that phenomena you were describing there,

Does that go away?

And there's even a more.

.

.

So I think that might be the follow-up here,

Yeah.

Yeah,

It gets subtler and subtler because even people who teach going beyond the four jhanas into the four formless attainments,

In the Vasudhi Magga,

They call them the formless jhanas and the suttas.

Just so people know,

Different terminology.

So it's not a right or wrong.

Sometimes you'll hear them formless jhanas.

In the suttas,

They're not called jhanas.

They're the formless attainment.

So you could hear it both ways.

Even people I know who teach would even say,

Well,

Even there,

You can kind of incline.

So it gets subtler and subtler.

I would say as long as the sense of yourself there as an experiencer is there,

It gets subtler and subtler and subtler until it's kind of.

.

.

Then you've kind of merged or different things happen and then none of that's operative anymore.

So that's what I would say.

Maybe someone might have a different.

.

.

It gets so subtle,

I want to be careful of making a categorical statement.

Exactly.

There's really fascinating things too with the Vasudhi Magga.

I guess,

Maybe just a little bit more background for the scholarly background.

Why do you think there is such a divergence?

Because I can kind of see it your way.

I think maybe if I'm getting this right,

The Pahak approach,

It's primarily Abhidhamma and Vasudhi Magga.

However,

There's still a huge referencing of the suttas to back up the method of approach.

And of course,

Within the Vasudhi Magga itself,

It's constantly referencing suttas,

But you have Buddhaghosa and there's so much legend around this text too,

Right?

Like it being rewritten from scratch,

Like multiple times.

Am I getting that right?

Or that he was actually trying to legend around it.

Oh yeah,

I don't know if he was trying to gain a Brahma rebirth by doing this.

So I thought there was some interesting kind of magical legends around this or not.

So I guess the more practical thing around this is why do you see such a split between these two?

I don't even know if a split's the right word,

But just the way you painted it,

Why?

Yeah,

Well,

Look,

That's an interesting question.

And so it's sort of like,

I can think of two options,

But there could be other options I'm not considering.

Were people,

Did the understanding of the teachings or of the methods of meditation evolve?

And then the commentarial and Vasudhi Magga approach reflected an evolved understanding over time.

And then they started practicing in ways to match that understanding,

Because that's what you thought you should do.

Or was it the other way around?

People were having certain experiential experiences happening,

And because of that,

Out of that became the commentarial kind of writings about it.

So was it coming from a practice first leading to the texts?

Was it a textual thing?

I don't,

Maybe both.

I mean,

I don't know,

But I'm imagining,

Things evolve,

Right?

They don't stay the same.

It would be amazing to me if things didn't evolve over time and before they were written down.

That would really,

Over centuries,

If it had not shifted,

That would be really amazing.

Well,

Absolutely,

And it's a really good point.

When people get too,

I think,

Locked into one thing,

Maybe you have to remember Anicca.

We also do have maybe more timeless aspects of the Dhamma,

Which are going to be more or less the same throughout no matter what time period as well.

So,

It's maybe a balance of these,

But yeah.

You know,

Just what,

Can I just say one more thing?

Oh yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And here's another thing that might be controversial,

But I'm just one person speaking.

Again,

If people don't like it,

Just let it go,

Right?

We need to push the limits and test these things,

Yes.

What I'm saying is the good news,

So it can feel confusing to people of no,

What should I do?

What's the right way?

Is there a right way?

I'm hearing all these voices and I understand that.

I want to offer that the good news is it does not matter what you do.

I mean,

I'm not meaning in general,

Like you don't want to go out and create harm and all that,

But I mean,

As a Dharma,

Doing these practices,

It's an all of the above.

And,

You know,

Any practices that help your mind come to more steadiness,

So it's not just scattered all over the place,

More clarity of mindfulness,

Insights,

All the heart qualities of kindness,

Empathy,

Compassion,

Love,

Discernment,

Non-reactivity,

And just all every quality you can think of can bring you to liberation.

And there are many,

Many ways to do it.

And so I just don't think it matters you just at all.

It's,

You know,

It's a really good point because what we're talking about here can easily lead people into doubt.

And that's not what I want to do here at all.

We bring it back to skillful states,

You know,

Skillful means and skillful states,

What Richard was saying.

And then we will eventually see and know it for ourselves,

And then we can test it with our own wisdom.

So yeah,

I agree with that.

So yeah,

I mean,

That will lead us here into maybe the five faculties,

Which I feel that,

You know,

Pak teaches really well about how to,

You know,

Bring more strength and balance to one's practice.

At least my teacher points to the five faculties quite a bit in balancing those as well,

As far as helping with Samatha.

A real practical one for me,

Maybe being a little bit over active on a mental sphere,

I wouldn't say overthinking,

But like a lot of mental activity from time to time.

So I just want to ask for maybe some real practical guidance because I hear some teachers,

You know,

Where they'll say,

Well,

Thinking's not the problem,

But,

You know,

They give lip service that,

No,

It's okay,

It's no big deal,

But,

But then they go into micromanaging every little thing,

Which basically says it is wrong.

And then I have teachers say,

No,

It's actually thinking is a hindrance.

So,

You know,

I don't know where I feel on this all because,

You know,

The mind can be like a genius machine at times,

But it's not the only tool for the job.

Well,

We have this huge background in the West where a lot of us get validation and importance and make our,

Make livings and,

You know,

Have brilliance and it's encouraged to have kind of a popantia proliferation.

But what we see and we're just,

Then it doesn't really help to struggle with it and fight it either because that just kind of makes it worse.

So what is your view and approach to the thinking mind as well?

I think it's a big one for a lot of us.

Yeah,

So before I tell you the most important thing,

Which is let's not make a big deal about thinking,

And I'll say a little bit about what I mean.

First,

I want to say,

Yes,

Of course there are times when it can serve us well,

Especially in the case like if,

So when there's a lot of thinking going on,

It could be many causes and conditions.

The main one for many people is our minds just aren't trained and that's the practice we're doing.

So we don't make a big deal.

We're on the path to train it and it will settle out,

Get better.

Will it become zero?

I don't know about that,

But it can settle out a lot.

But also,

So that,

But there can be times when it can be interesting just to feel in if there's really,

Especially something repetitive or there's an energy or a feeling to it,

It might be,

Let me feel underneath this.

Is there,

And you may or may not get anything,

But is there something fueling this?

And then it might be,

Well,

Yeah,

Before I came on this retreat or before at home,

I sat on this,

I got in an argument with someone and I'm still feeling,

Ah,

Okay,

Ah,

Let's put our,

That's where we need to hang out with our mindfulness.

And then maybe it's like,

Yeah,

I've got some anger or I've got some fear or resentment or whatever.

And then I've told people sometimes,

You know,

On retreat,

I would say,

Well,

Look,

If you want to sit and be with that and let go,

Fine.

But you know what?

It might serve you to,

Don't tell the other teachers I'm telling you this,

But there's a phone down here I can let you use.

Go call the person up,

Tell them you're sorry or see what they,

See if you can clean it up.

And then what's the point of sitting there with that?

And then,

Because do whatever's wise and skillful is what I'm saying.

So yes,

There can be times we want to tend to something to help bring it down.

But to me,

It's more in the context of,

I don't think in terms of,

I think of it like this.

When we're practicing,

The way I mostly work with people is,

We have,

I mostly work with what we call meditation objects,

Where there's some experience like breathing that you're putting your attention on.

I should say there are some people even in the beginning who do more of an open,

Inclusive,

Non,

It's like you're resting back in open awareness and more receiving experiences.

That works for some people,

But I,

So yes,

That's fine if that works for them.

Most people,

You put your attention on whatever,

I'll say the breath,

You keep coming back over and over.

And I'm not worrying about anything else about the thoughts,

Just don't worry about it because there's all kinds of things going on,

Body sensations,

Sounds,

Moods,

Emotions,

Thoughts.

What you're doing is you're giving,

I would say,

A preference or predominance of awareness on that without overly pushing,

But you're just giving an emphasis there and everything else you allow just to be in the background,

Unless it's,

You can't allow it in the background,

Then we need to work with it.

It's as simple as that.

And then we don't have to think about,

Just don't worry,

We don't need to spend time on the thoughts,

Just do that and let's see what happens as it settles out.

Very,

Oh,

And then also,

That's combined with,

To me,

The most important meditation instruction there is,

Is ease and relaxation the best you can.

Now,

Not always easy to do,

So you don't wanna struggle to not struggle,

I understand that,

But especially we're dealing with physical pain,

Mental pain,

But the best we can,

Is there anything I can do to help me feel safe here?

Help me feel just as relaxed and at ease as I can?

What will do that?

And we could have a whole conversation how you do that.

And then checking in several times during a sit,

Oh,

Am I suffering in the mind?

Is there something in the body?

What can I do to help me drop into the ease and relaxation?

And then if we're in that place,

We don't struggle against things so much,

Including our thoughts.

And we just say,

Okay,

Now let me just continue with coming here.

If thoughts intrude,

Fine,

Let them go.

If my mind won't stop obsessing about the fact that I'm obsessing,

Okay,

Let it go.

You just keep coming back and we can hold it all more lightly.

So that's kind of,

To me,

A way that I would think in general about the thoughts.

I understand other people have a different,

If you're practicing in a tradition that says thoughts are a problem,

Then they must have some methods for you to work with.

And I don't know what they are,

But they'll tell you to do something.

And then you could do that.

I don't know what they would say,

Because if you can stop your thoughts,

If you wanna stop your thoughts,

I'll say,

Great.

But then the question is,

Well,

I don't know how to do it.

And then what do I do?

And I don't know.

Maybe somebody else knows.

Yeah,

Don't go under anesthesia without a doctor's permission,

Right?

But I don't even know if that stops it.

You just won't be aware that you're doing it anymore.

So bad joke,

I guess.

Yeah,

So Richard,

I think we ought to start at least wrapping up a part one here.

That was great because for me,

Yeah,

If there's an overemphasis on it,

Well,

Then we're gonna amplify it,

Right?

We're gonna give it more energy and artificially inflate it too.

But there is a lot more to be said,

Like you said,

On this whole thing.

For me,

It was ethics.

Waking up to the fact,

What,

2012 when I first started,

How actually bad I was treating myself and other people around me and had no idea about it.

So the five precepts were,

And still are,

And absolutely foundational because a lot of interpretations on restlessness and remorse,

A lot of people leave out remorse.

And of course,

There's a healthy remorse and an unhealthy remorse,

Right?

The heriotopa,

That's a helpful thing.

And then there's rumination and beating oneself up.

Yeah,

Beating yourself up.

Exactly,

So yeah,

There's a difference there.

But for me,

Yeah,

The early part of my practice was waking up to all this stuff.

And actually,

Yeah,

Reaching out to people to ask for forgiveness.

It was time,

I wanna do it,

It was helpful.

And it was even funny how,

I don't even remember that.

Well,

I did,

So either way,

It's a huge accelerator too.

And forgiveness,

I think,

Can't be forced.

And you can ask for forgiveness,

We can forgive,

And then forgive oneself,

Which with the Judeo-Christian background,

We're not really taught that a lot,

That we can forgive ourselves.

A huge letting go of a burden,

Not to be forced,

Not to say the action should be even tolerated,

But that,

Yeah.

So anyway,

That's just one tiny aspect of what we're talking about to help them.

Very foundational and fundamental for sure.

But there's so many different aspects to getting the mind to calm and settle and to come into unification and settledness as well.

And then the benefits of that,

Maybe if we do a part two,

We can go into,

Why bother with all this stuff to begin with,

Which is fundamental as well.

So Richard,

I so appreciate your time.

I mean,

We did this despite the technical difficulties online and offline,

But that's life,

That's real life.

It's great hanging out with you and just kind of talking about these things,

For me,

Just brings it really alive.

So I've really appreciated getting to know you and hanging out with you.

It's great.

Well,

Great.

It's my pleasure.

Take out a message if you'd like,

If you have any kind of way to wrap this up or what you'd like to leave any listeners with.

Sure.

I guess what comes up for me is,

I know for some of us,

We can be particularly hard on ourselves and judge ourselves by how well or poorly,

Good or bad,

We think we're showing up or doing it,

Whatever the it is.

And I understand that,

But how well or poorly we act in any situation is really,

That's just the conditioned patterns of our minds.

That's what we're working on is shifting the conditioned patterns.

And when that happens,

What I found useful is to connect back with what my sincere,

As a Dharma practitioner,

My sincere aspiration or intentions are.

And I'll bet everyone has a good intention and whatever your own languaging is of wanting to live in a way that creates less suffering in the world for yourself,

For others,

Wants to create more wellbeing for yourself and for others.

And if that's true for you,

Even when you're at your worst,

You can still know that you really do care about that intention and that's alive for you.

And I find it going back to that somehow and know that still is my good intention and I'm doing the best I can.

We're all just doing the best I can.

And then it is helpful so we're not too hard on ourselves and we can still stay attuned,

Let that intention kind of bolster us kind of a thing.

So that's what I would share.

It's been helpful for me.

Well,

I could only echo that Richard.

So thank you for that.

And thank you for everyone listening as well.

Bye now.

Okay.