Episode Six: The Interview-Larry

And he said a lot of us feel that we're refugees.

And that we're just like,

I'm like,

Oh my God,

That's what I've been the last two years.

I've been like this refugee.

I don't fit in.

I mean,

My theology,

Everything,

His seminary just changed me and I don't fit in where I used to,

But I haven't found where I'm supposed to be.

And so it's like,

I'm this refugee.

And that was like the perfect description for the last couple of years.

So.

["In the Hall of the Mountain King"] It's one of the things that I struggle with.

I mean,

I identify as queer.

I'm a long distance runner.

Myers-Briggs,

I'm INFP,

Which is like 1% of the population.

So I've always felt like kind of this outsider looking in.

There was a great quote I saw,

Something about,

I used to walk into a room and wondered if people would like me.

Now when I walk into a room,

I wonder if I'm going to like them.

And that's kind of just this shift where I'm like,

I'm finally at almost 60,

Feeling comfortable with my own self.

I'm comfortable with my own skin and the person that I am.

And I'm still evolving also,

You know?

It's just this continual process,

Which I love.

I consider myself spiritual,

Not religious.

I'm executive director for a nonprofit.

I'm just trying to think of these different descriptions,

You know,

That describe who I am and what I do.

Things that I love,

I love running because it's taught me so much.

And I do believe that God has been there through all of that guiding me.

And that's been a gift.

And the spiritual journey,

You know,

That spiritual refugee.

When I talked to someone else from FCM,

She said she considers not refugee,

But an immigrant or a migrant.

And I was like,

Oh,

That's kind of cool too.

So maybe I'm an queer,

INFP,

Spiritual refugee runner,

Yogi.

Spiritual refugee runner,

Yogi.

I like that.

No,

I mean,

You're right.

Everybody's always evolving.

And this is just kind of like one snapshot of where you are in your life.

Exactly.

I suspect your answer would have been very different five years ago.

Completely different five years ago.

I don't even know if I would have said queer five years ago.

I mean,

It's just not,

I mean,

Yeah,

I don't know that I would have.

It's not a huge part of me,

But it is who I am.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

Did you grow up in a religious household?

Or was your family religious?

We did go to church.

I mean,

We were like the Sunday church.

You know,

We'd go to church on Sunday.

That was basically it.

My grandparents were very much,

My grandfather always said public opinion is what matters most.

And going to church,

People thought good things of you.

So we went to church.

I grew up in a very small farming town in southwest Wisconsin,

Late 60s,

Early 70s.

And they were like one of the first to get divorced.

So it was,

Which was scandalous back then and there and everything.

So I left the church two years ago just before seminary,

Before I graduated.

And yoga became my Sunday morning practice.

That's where I would go.

I started this meditation challenge,

Which has been great.

And so this past Sunday,

The Buddhist temple here in town,

They have a meditation service on Sunday morning.

So I sat in on that.

So back to your question,

Where do I worship right now?

I'm kind of like between my yoga and first you.

And now maybe some,

Do some meditation.

We'll see where I land.

When I come back to goal,

I get to pray.

I get tolive at the most appropriate level of Vsauce calls where I can pass it all in,

Take some time to ask questions in this way.

It's very interesting to me,

Just in the conversations I've been having with people.

How seminary really appended a lot of people's lives.

Everything,

Everything,

Yeah.

Well one,

I never planned on going.

That was never part of my plan.

Need.

And it all just kind of happened and the money just kind of came in.

So I was like,

All right,

I know I need to do this because the money is like coming from places that I would have never expected.

And I don't really know where I'm going with this or where it's all going to end.

But I did up until,

You know,

Things happened at the church,

I did expect to get ordained and,

You know,

Maybe have a congregation,

But I know that congregational ministry is not for me.

If I do anything,

It'll be,

You know,

It will be with chaplaincy.

Well,

It sounds,

You know,

I'm skipping ahead of a couple questions here,

But it sounds like that story you just told me about getting called and the money just showing up is kind of one of those occasions where basically you got to witness the hand of that energy or the universe or that wanted you to do something.

Totally,

Totally.

That was all spirit.

Just,

You know,

It's and it's and it's not usually,

I'm not usually like one to go in to do something where I don't know where it's going to end.

When I was exploring the Federation of Christian Ministry,

On their website there was a letter from the president and he said a lot of us feel that we're refugees and that we're just like,

I'm like,

Oh my god,

That's what I've been the last few years.

I've been like this refugee.

I don't fit in.

I mean,

My theology,

Everything,

His seminary just changed me and I don't fit in where I used to,

But I haven't found where I'm supposed to be and so it's like I'm this refugee and that was like the perfect description for the last last couple of years.

So I think what's interesting about that statement about being a refugee is that so many people I talk to and meet have that feeling that they don't fit in somewhere.

Oh,

Interesting.

They want to find a place to connect with that energy with God,

With spirit,

But they have no idea where to go or how to go about it.

I think there are lots of refugees trying to figure out where they belong.

Exactly,

Yeah.

Well and that's with seminary too,

I don't know for you,

But for me I kind of like expected to go and like be fed a theology.

I didn't know that I was going to be able to create a theology which was so freeing and I know like some of the people from the church,

Especially some of the older members who you know felt very connected to me,

They don't understand why I'm not coming back to church or not coming back to be with them.

That's been one of the challenges for me.

It's like,

You know,

I don't want to,

I mean I'm very,

Very spiritual.

It's just,

What they believe and I believe are very different now and I'm not,

They're not right or I'm not right.

I mean it's not right or wrong,

It's just different,

You know.

And that's one of the things I love about chaplaincy also.

It's like you're not there to change anybody,

You're there just to be present and support them in whatever their beliefs are or maybe they don't have beliefs,

But just to be that presence is such a gift and we don't have to believe the same things,

You know.

And that's what I like about chaplaincy also because you have,

It's much more intimate.

It's just you and that other person or you and that family you know.

It's not getting up on Sunday morning and you know all that clapping and that's fine.

And again,

I'm not saying it's wrong,

It's just wrong for me.

And I think what's also really precious about chaplaincy is that,

You know,

When you enter that room,

Is it gonna be an atheist,

An agnostic,

A Christian?

You know,

Who is it gonna be religiously?

And so walking in,

If it's a Christian or anyone of any religious bent,

You're there kind of as an agent of that higher power.

To just be present and be in conversation with the person.

I think it's such a sacred task.

It is such a gift.

It's such a sacred space and such a gift to be invited into that space and to be able to share that space.

You know,

It's just,

I think too part of it is like growing up,

My dad is bipolar and in and out of mental hospitals.

And so there was a lot of times where it was like just really scary as a kid.

And you didn't,

There was nobody there.

There was no one to share that.

I mean the people at the church,

They,

I mean because nobody knew how to deal with it.

It was all something new and so having experienced that and then having to been molested as a kid again in a space,

I don't,

There's nobody I can talk to about this.

I think it helps me in those moments of chaplaincy because I know what it's like to feel that.

Kind of like be like so alone and if I can be just a presence for someone else so they don't have to feel that or don't have to feel it as intensely,

Just that they know that somebody is there.

That's a real gift and it's,

I just thank God for that,

You know,

Opportunity to do that.

Well definitely as we were talking earlier,

I mean Seminary has been one of the pivotal places that just God has really guided and changed and that whole deconstruction process.

Kathy Kelsey once described it as going into Seminary,

You have like,

You may have had this firm foundation and thought you knew every,

You know,

And everything and you were this very strong house and we start to take the house apart and rather than putting you back together as a house,

You're now a boat and you're like,

Oh my gosh,

How do I navigate now?

What do I do?

But she's like,

You can invite people on and you're like floating down this river or out on the ocean or on a lake or,

And it's just,

Those are like those little God moments or things that just really struck with me and it's like,

Oh I'm not,

No I don't,

And I don't want to be the same person that I was before.

I want to be constantly evolving and changing and growing and that's what's worked for me.

It may not work for everyone else but for me that's where I am.

The running is another gift where I've seen my God is just,

His hand is taught me God's hand.

I still get those pronouns still,

It's just after so many years they still come out and I catch myself but it's still,

It's still,

I don't like using,

Using.

So God's hand,

Growing up as a kid I was the most unathletic kid ever.

I would strike out at t-ball.

I mean I was like,

It was horrible but I started running and I started meeting people and I've like qualified to run the Boston Marathon and I've like gotten to run it and it has been,

There's been so many amazing lessons along the way about trusting the journey or just showing up and not knowing where the road's going to end but knowing that you are going to get to the finish line or you are going to get to the end of the run,

Learning to trust others and to allow others to support you and then also be there to support them.

It's just been a really interesting journey and a couple years ago my running group,

Which is like around 500 people,

They,

Every year we do like a little awards thing and they gave me like the award for like the person who most reflect the spirit of the run and that is like one of the most treasured that I went from the kid that nobody wanted and couldn't,

You know,

Hit a ball to the hit a ball on a stand,

You know,

To a marathoner,

You know,

A Boston marathoner and that to me is a God thing also which is,

Like I said,

God's hand taught me so very much about that.

Chaplaincy,

I love,

There was one time,

I guess this was one of the congregants that I was visiting before he passed,

He's like,

I don't understand why I'm still here,

I should have gone a long time ago.

I was like,

You're here because you're helping me find my path and that just made him smile and come alive.

He's like,

I'm helping you?

I'm like,

Yeah.

He's like,

I thought you were helping me?

I'm like,

Oh no,

No,

No,

I get much more out of this and you're getting trust me.

The thing that,

Another thing that I love about chaplaincy,

It's like I don't have to fix anything because that's one of the things that I spent most of my life thinking that I had to like clean up messes and fix people or fix,

You know,

And it's like,

No,

Just shut up and be quiet and when that happens and people are able to trust that,

It's like such a gift.

I remember there was one,

This woman,

She was just so agitated and the nurses were like ready to pull their hair out and it was my first day on this inpatient.

So I went in and we just started playing some music,

Some Christian music,

And we started talking and she started calming down and the nurses were like,

You're never leaving.

You have to stay here forever.

My mentor always said,

It's like,

People may not remember what you say,

But they will remember if you were there.

It all just kind of happened.

I had moved to Houston and I had a new job that was really stressful.

And so I just started like on Saturday mornings,

I would go to this golf course.

It was like a mile loop and I just started running it.

And then one day a coworker,

I ran into a coworker out there and she was like,

Oh,

You're a runner.

I'm like,

No,

I run a mile on Saturdays.

That's what I do.

And she's like,

Oh,

I belong to this club.

They're really nice people.

I think you really enjoy them.

You should come out and run with us sometime.

So I did.

She never told me that it was a marathon training club.

So I ended up signing up for the Houston half marathon.

They were all training for the marathon.

And on Saturdays,

We would meet to run.

And I just had so much fun running with them.

I mean,

The conversation,

The miles would just go by that I would,

I was basically,

Even though I was only planning to run the half,

I basically trained for the full.

And two weeks before the race,

They were like,

You've trained for the full.

You should just switch and do the full.

And me naively,

I'm like,

Sure,

Why not?

I'll do that.

I'm having so much fun.

You guys are nice.

Mile 21,

I was cursing them.

I was like,

I hate you all.

I'm never talking to you again.

I'm never running again.

I just want to get this done.

And then at the finish line,

They put like this foil blanket around me and someone else put a medal over my neck and somebody had water for me and a banana.

And I was like,

Oh my God,

This is the greatest thing ever.

When do I sign up?

And I did two more that same year.

So I'll just kind of,

I have a very addictive personality also.

So it's very,

It can be very dangerous.

So yeah.

And I was just thinking about you being a child and,

You know,

Not being picked for the sports teams and,

And then to have this whole experience with running and where I see the God moment in that is that you're,

You ran into your coworker at that park.

Oh,

Uh huh.

Yeah.

Because she opened everything up for you.

Yeah.

And through this,

It completely redefined who you are in your physical body.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I know my family.

They're all like,

Who are you?

What's going on?

Why?

I moved here in 2005 and I,

There was this part of me that just wanted to find a church home,

But,

Um,

I did a lot of different church shopping and just didn't find a space where I felt safe.

And I heard the day,

Um,

At the joy,

Uh,

MCC,

There was a new pastor coming into town.

And so I was like,

All right,

Well,

Let me give it another try.

And I went and I usually feel much safer around women than men.

And so it was like,

Okay,

Having a female pastor,

I love this.

And,

Um,

There was something in me that she saw and I started singing the choir and did the Christmas play.

And soon I was reading on,

You know,

Scripture on Sunday mornings and then taking different classes and the doors,

Just as the doors open,

I just kept going through them.

And again,

I have to give running credit for that because it just,

It taught me just show up and just,

You know,

Be present and see where,

Where things go,

You know,

Maybe it'll be a great day.

Maybe it won't,

But just,

You know,

Just show up.

And,

Uh,

Anyway,

Just things just kept evolving,

Evolving,

Evolving,

And,

Uh,

Dee was there at the time also.

And she was like,

She was exploring seminary and the pastor there was like,

You know,

This is,

I think where God is calling you that you know you need to be.

And so I have,

Again,

It's kind of like that when I went out to go run,

Sure,

I'll go run with you guys.

It sounds like fun.

Let me see what happens.

And,

Um,

And so I did.

And I got accepted.

And then all of a sudden I started getting these scholarships and then I'll have had the,

You know,

Where they would match them and people at the church were giving mine.

It was just like,

And I was like,

Okay,

This,

I have to,

There's something here because I've gone,

I've got my bachelor's,

I have another master's degree.

And I went in debt both times for both of those.

And to have this,

The money just there,

I can't say no to this.

There's,

There's spirit as is doing something.

So to have then things change at the church and to have me leave the church was just like,

Okay,

Now what are you up to?

Because I thought we were on this path.

But to go back to what I wanted to,

I didn't want to forget,

My therapist said a lot of times when you experience childhood trauma,

You want to go back to the place to try to heal.

So I kept trying to go back to church to be healed.

He said,

Though,

When you were able to walk away from the church and say,

You know what,

This really isn't a safe space for me.

I don't want to be here right now.

And you walked away,

Even though you had all this other stuff going on,

That's when the healing started to happen.

Because that's when you started to take care of yourself,

Rather than doing what everyone else wanted or not to try to rock the boat.

You said,

No,

This isn't a safe space.

I'm walking away.

And I was like,

Well,

Why didn't you tell me that like the first month that we were in therapy,

This whole thing,

What kids do?

This is like years.

You had to discover it yourself.

It was yours to find.

I couldn't tell you.

Well,

I'm much more drawn to Eastern traditions,

Just because I love their connection to Earth and connection to others.

And I don't feel that my experience with Christianity hasn't been the same.

It's been a separation,

The whole original sin.

And now I think of like original blessing.

And I often wonder,

It's like,

What would this world be like if rather than we're told,

You're bad and you're going to hell,

Unless you do this,

And instead that there's this God that loves you so much,

Just as you are.

And it's kind of,

I mean,

The more that I think about it too,

It's like with the Christian God,

It's like,

Wait a minute,

Do you hate me or do you love me?

Because I get these two different mixed messages and it's a little confusing for me.

And that's me that God just doesn't work for me.

I don't want to serve that kind of God anymore.

That's just not who I am.

So there's also that sense,

God now and another with the Eastern traditions,

It's more that God is inside each of us rather than outside or up there.

And that to me is just a very,

A much more powerful place to be knowing that.

And also that realizing that when you're in the presence of another person,

You're in the presence of God.

And that is just,

I don't know that the tradition that I grew up with taught me any of those things.

I grew up with the Christian tradition taught me any of those things.

I remember when,

I don't know if you took New Testament with Eric Smith,

But there was,

We were reading one of the readings one day and it,

In the textbook,

And it talked about how this person was divinely born and was a healer and resurrected.

And I was like,

What the fuck?

Excuse me.

But there was somebody else after the deconstruction process.

I just,

I can't do that.

I can't do that anymore.

And as much as I have loved watching our cohort,

Like watching them on Sunday mornings,

The Christian services,

There's something inside that I just get a little,

I don't know,

My skin starts to crawl a little.

And I mean,

I'm really excited for them.

And I'm excited for the congregations because I know that they're going to be doing amazing and wonderful things,

But that's not who I am.

And I'm still in that refugee,

Immigrant,

Migrant,

Trying to figure all that out,

But I know what I'm not.

There's also this really great quote from James Baldwin.

He's writing about when he left the church,

People I felt ought to love the Lord because they loved him and not because they were afraid of going to hell.

And I think that that's what the church does.

It just,

There's so much fear that it just creates.

And I don't think that that's what God's about.

One of the things I think is,

I feel that that message of fear that you're going to go to hell is supposed to galvanize you into leading a more pure life,

A life that is more moral,

Where you are acting right in society.

But to me,

God is about invitation.

Spirit is about invitation.

And part of the peril of our modern society,

You can call it magic.

You can call it energy.

You can call it quantum processes or whatever,

But that part of that invitation,

People are so,

They're too busy these days.

They're so hooked up to their technology.

They are so distracted that how would you ever see or hear the invitation in the first place?

Now,

If that spirit wants your attention,

That spirit will bitch slap you as long as it takes to get your attention.

But God is all about the invitation.

And you have free will whether or not to accept that invitation.

So every time you meet a new person and you were saying that God is inside everybody,

Which I believe as well,

Every time you meet someone new,

There's another invitation to get to know God.

Oh,

Exactly.

I love that.

I love another facet of God.

Yes.

Yes.

It's a way of moving through the world with,

I think,

A little more grace,

A little more awareness,

And maybe compassion too.

The idea of the invitation shows more generosity of spirit on God's part.

Uh-huh.

You know,

It's not fire and brimstone.

If you don't show up,

You're going to die.

It's more like,

Here's a really nice invitation on beautiful,

Expensive paper if you want to show up.

You know,

And I think that's one of the interesting things about your life,

Right?

The theme is showing up.

It is.

It's all about showing up.

It's all about showing up.

It's all about showing up.

You've shown up over and over and over.

And because of showing up,

Because of hearing those invitations,

You,

Your life has been transformed.

Exactly.

It's so true.

And I think that's so beautiful.

It is beautiful.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you for reminding me.

I read something recently too,

About how people often want God to intervene,

But God wants somebody to collaborate.

I think that's really beautiful because that makes you an agent in whatever's happening.

You're not just passively receiving or passively watching.

You have skin in the game.

You got to show up and do whatever needs to happen.

This has been episode six of Bite Sized Blessings,

The podcast all about the magic and spirit that surrounds us.

If only we open our eyes to it.

And whether you choose to listen to our Bite Sized offerings for that five minutes of freedom in your day or the longer interviews,

We're grateful you're here.

I'd like to thank Larry Watchorn for sharing his story today,

As well as the creators of the music used,

Sasha and Raphael Crux,

Winnie the Moog,

Alexander Nakarada,

And Kevin MacLeod.

For complete attribution,

Please see the Bite Sized Blessings website at bite-sized-blessings.

Com.

And remember,

That's bite spelled B-Y-T-E.

On the website,

You can find links to other episodes,

As well as to books,

Music,

And change makers I think you should know.

Thank you for listening,

And here's my one request.

Be like Larry,

Accept the invitations,

Accept the invitations,

And then show up.

Thank you.

Thank you.