044 The Male Hero’s Journey Featuring Joe Ducard

57:06

57:06

044 The Male Hero’s Journey Featuring Joe Ducard

by Ruwan Meepagala

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5

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talks

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Meditation

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Everyone

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From the outside it’s easy to judge men who want to learn “how to seduce women.” But few non-men recognize that almost always that journey is sparked by loneliness, shyness, and a deep desire to connect. Dating coach Joe Ducard comes on to speak about the male hero’s journey, spirituality, and even economics. He helps men attract through authenticity. Please note: This podcast contains explicit language.

Relationships Self Improvement Social Skills Loneliness Confidence Transformation Purpose Self Discovery Self Acceptance Depression Humor Confidence Building Life Purpose Communication Skills Overcoming Depression Personal Transformation Improvisation Spirits

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Meet your Teacher

Ruwan Meepagala

New York, NY, USA

Transcript

Today's guest is Joe Ducard, Who's a dating coach who teaches men to attract women through authenticity. So we had a real fun conversation speaking about his journey, Which is very similar to my journey in terms of learning how to connect with women as a way of development as a man. So just speaking about the man's hero's journey, A couple announcements. I did plug my charity briefly in the middle of the show. It's a collectively driven charity called The Neighbor Fund. I might speak about it more on a later episode, But the whole idea is we're trying to reverse the tragedy of the commons, Which is the economic situation where a lot of people are sharing a resource and it's depleting it, Like overfishing a lake or depleting the parks. Anyway, I'm not going to get into that part, But essentially what we're doing is anyone can join for a minimum donation of $10 a month. You put it into a pool and 90% of that money gets voted on by the members. It doesn't matter how much you donate. You have one vote, You vote on how to distribute it. And every month we're distributing it to three places. One that's people focused, One that's charity cause focused, And one that's we're calling magic focused, Which is maybe something artistic or increasing enchantment in the world of some sort. So you can check that out at theneighborfund. Com. Another quick announcement is that the podcast is in a new home. The Rondo podcast has been picked up by the Gotham Podcast Studios Network, Which doesn't mean anything other than you'll probably see it more places. It's going to be on iHeartRadio. It's just part of a fun network of other cool podcasts featuring people like Teddy Atlas, Who I'm a huge fan of in the boxing world. So anyway, It's a little thing. Right now you're listening to episode 044, Joe Ducard, The man's hero, Shurney. You're listening to the Rondo podcast, Perpetual orgasm, Infinite play. Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show. All right. Hey Joe, It's great to connect with you. Yes, Sir. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. We were introduced by a mutual friend, Justin Stentrum from Elite Men podcast. So yeah, I'm glad to connect with you. It's checking out your websites. It's all great stuff. Since I'm getting to know you now, As I share first conversation outside of email, Can you share a little bit about your story and how you got into coaching and doing the work you do? Sure, Man. Yeah. You know, I wasn't very popular growing up. I didn't really have much experience with women or anything like that. By the time I was 19, I was pretty depressed. And most of that depression was from loneliness. I didn't have any friends. You know, Still a virgin, No experience with women. And it was a really low part of my life. And then by then I wound up stumbling into my first girlfriend who I almost married by the time I was 21 because I felt I could never get another woman again for the rest of my life. That was truly my thought because I hadn't had any success before. And then at 21 I got another job. She was long distance. We had broken up and that's when I fell into the game and the pickup artist TV show. And you know, I saw that attraction was a learnable skill. Okay. And I knew that you can make more money. I knew that you could lose weight, Get into shape, Right? I knew that maybe you could be famous. I don't know how to get famous, Maybe you could, But I didn't know that communicating with women and, You know, Attracting women was a choice. I didn't know that it was an actual skill. So once I found out that that was possible, I really set out to do whatever it took to master that skill. And I mean, I read every book under the sun. I studied all the gurus and went out sometimes seven nights a week, Just approaching women and really working on myself. And it was a long, Long journey. I mean, This was 2007 that I started, Well, We're coming up on 12 years ago that I really dive deep into the stuff and every second of my day was devoted to self-improvement. I mean, This was still before social media was really big and I didn't have cable or anything like that. So I mean, I just devoted my whole life to the stuff, Man. It was pretty crazy. And then I started to get some success. I lost over a hundred pounds and you know, I talked to my father actually, And he said, I said, What should I do next? He said, You got to coach people and help them. You know, I saw on your, On your site, You had a video that said you know, Your passion is your purpose. I think that that's what it was called. Right. Or your problem was your problem is your purpose. Yeah. Your problems are your purpose. Right. So that's definitely resonates very true with me because that was a big problem for me. I never said, Okay, I want to be a dating coach. Right. I just said, I want to cure my loneliness no matter what. And I wound up diving so deep in it and figuring in figuring it out from the inside out and eventually I became really good at it. And then that became my purpose was to help other men transform themselves as well. So, You know, I wound up working for the mystery method and becoming a master instructor for them and, And meeting all the guys the mystery method, The company, Which then became a love systems. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Which was that first company to take guys out and show them how to do it. Is that the one with Savoy? The boy. Yeah. So if I work with the boy for, For many years, Yeah. And did that for a while. Then eventually went out on my own and kind of put my own spin on things because you know, Some of the pickup stuff I don't agree with anymore. I don't think you should tell other people's stories that someone came up with 12 years ago. I believe you should cultivate your own interests and build skills rather than rely on routines and certain things like that. But it definitely gave me a start and I've moved more towards my tagline nowadays to attract women authentically, Which is, You know, Through being your best self through building skills and becoming a guy who is more attractive to women rather than, You know, Manipulation or telling other people's stories and things like that. So yeah. There's a couple of reasons why I want to speak with you because I mean, I run in different circles and a lot of my friends are feminists, Especially like the fiery women I hang out with and there's a lot of hate, I think, Or misconceptions around a man wanting to learn how to be with women. Like immediately from the outside people like, I mean, I grew up in New York city, So you'd see, I mean, Even now you see in union square, There's always like a clan of pickup guys are probably just starting out who are all like a hot girl walks by and they're like, Are you approaching? Are you approaching? And it's a little, It's a little creepy at that time. I've been there. I've done exactly that. That was my journey too. And from the outside, It looks like, Oh, Look at those sleazy guys. Uh, They, People assume like they're like the Jackson high school. We're bullying people and trying to like get in women's pants and everything. It was really the opposite. I don't realize that for almost every guy I've ever met, Anyone who really commits to this journey, It started off with pain and loneliness, Which is what you started speaking about just now. Yeah, It's so true, Man. And, Uh, There's definitely some misconceptions. And like you said, Those guys are the opposite. They're definitely, They're not the jockey guys. They're the scared guys who are, You know, The guys who I work with, Uh, Whenever I say like, Who, Who do I serve, Who do I work with? They're usually good guys. Like we're just good people who just are shy around women and don't have the social skills, Never got to learn them because we don't teach them in school. Right. So those are the type of guys that I'd like to work with. And you know, Maybe if they say, Okay, You know, Guys going out, Just approach a bunch of women or whatever. Um, You know, Some people can look at it the wrong way, But you know, These are guys who are just trying to work on their social skills and get out of the shells. And eventually, You know, A lot of their goals is to find a woman they're really attracted to and, And, And develop a connection with her, You know, Which I think is an animal admirable goal. Definitely. Yeah. With every guy who comes to me, I mean, Not, Not every single guy, But most guys who are younger, They all say they want exactly the same thing, Which is to date a bunch in their twenties and then settle down when they're 30. I get that. That's the number one goal I get from guys. I want to play, You know, I want to play the field a little bit, Get some experience and then find the best one and settle with her out of a choice. And it's almost like, It's almost like in the 40 year old version where like he wants to play the field just so he can be a complete person when he meets his soulmate. Like it's kind of almost cheesy romantic to a point. Like, I just wanted people understand, Like, Even if, Even though the word pickup artist is kind of stigmatized now, Maybe with good reason, It comes from a place of like genuine desire for connection almost always. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't use that term anymore. I'm not associated with my stuff just because it's got such a bad rap. But you know, I definitely started learning from, From that stuff and learn really good principles. And like I said, Transformed it a little bit more to more the holistic kind of complete approach. I definitely tell guys what to say and how to say it and all that other stuff too. But you know, I've gotten more away from such dogmatic tactics and and scripts and, And things like that and a little more. Yeah. I mean, I'm a little removed from the, I mean, The dating coaching that that part of the world at least. Are there still coaches doing that? Like with the scripts and opinion openers and things? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I kind of assumed that I mean, I assume that as I evolved, Everyone else evolved and everyone I talked to like you seems to have evolved from that. I didn't know that anyone was still doing well. Most guys like us that that have some experience in learning this. And you know, I mean, You're to your 30 now, Right? I'm 32. So, You know, As we start to get older, We see that there's more to it than all that other stuff, Right? And, And there's a lot of with our own inner happiness and cultivating who we are as ourselves. You know, I spend a lot of time doing that stuff. And then when I took a very small break from it at 29, The biggest question I had was who the fuck am I? Right? Because I was so defined by going out and approaching and meeting and picking up women and all that other stuff that I had given up on all the things that made me me. So the last few years have been a rediscovery of who I am and, And what makes me me and what really makes me happy. And that's something that comes across definitely in my, The new way I've gone with my teaching, Trying to help guys cultivate that so they don't go down that, That road of just, You know, Trying to just hook up with women. Because that's definitely not the case. That's not the answer. For sure. Yeah. Do you feel like the I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, But like the it sounded like you had like a bit of an existential, Maybe not crisis, But you had to reread it and like, You really think how you're doing things. Do you think that's a necessary part of a man's development when it comes to this kind of thing? Oh yeah. It happened at two points in my life that were very pronounced. And I know it's funny, They say the toughest ages for men, Mental health wise, And just, Just in general are 19 and 29 are the two toughest ages for men. And on the money, Those are the two toughest ages for me. The first one was graduating high school, Figuring out what I want to do with my life and being lonely and seeing that I was now, You know, Then I became overweight and things like that and didn't know kind of where I wanted to go. And then there was a very deep depression for me. And then 29 was the same thing. I was about to hit 30 and I was like, Well, What did I do with my twenties and who am I now and where do I want to go next? So that was definitely, Those were the two times where I had to really rethink my life and the direction that I was heading and things like that. And they're all necessary evils, Right? Yeah, It was a low point, But it wound up turning into a really good thing. I feel like I see the big picture so much better now than I ever have. And you know, I'm not perfect. I still struggle with things. Obviously we all do, But I feel like I'm seeing things much more clearly now, Which is super cool. So not every guy in these critical points comes out ahead. Actually, I think a lot of men in 19 and 29 fall into a pit and like the next 10 years suck. Like, What do you think or what would you say was helpful, Useful in those regards? I think that's a great question. And that's awesome that you said that because we can help people who are going through that as well. You know, For me I learned at a very young age you know, Like complete ownership of myself, Right? Anything that was going wrong, I never blamed it on other people. Maybe when I was really young, I did, But once I hit my twenties, I just said, Look, No one's going to feel bad for me. No one cares if I have to do more work than them. Nobody gives a shit. And like, I have to do what I need to do to make those things that I want a reality. I had your site up, Your tagline speaks to it pretty well. You know, How you, There you go. Yeah. How do you create your desired reality? Right. And that was a big question for myself as well. I was like, You know, I always wanted the same things. I think a lot of guys do, You know, We want to, I always want to be fit and look good. I want it to have money and financial freedom. I want to have fun and adventure. I want to have beautiful women in my life, You know, Lots of friends and live a good life. Right. I think mostly in general, Everybody wants to have that. And I saw at 19 and in my early twenties, My life was slipping away from me and I was kind of far away from that. So I just said, Look, I need to do whatever it takes to kind of make it happen. And in my early twenties, There were a few years where I didn't, I wasn't even close to that because I didn't know how to get help. I didn't know where the help was. So I'd started reading a bunch of random stuff, Trying things that didn't work out. Eventually I had to find things that worked for me. So there was a lot of confusion and a lot of throwing shit against the wall and, You know, Seeing what sticks in my early twenties, But at 29, It was a lot easier because I was a little more humble. I had really good friends in my life now that were other coaches and things like that and already bet on their own journey. So I could consult with other people. You know, I would go to a therapist and talk to a therapist about what was bothering me. I would read more books. I would apply these things. I had no victim mentality. I had no feeling bad for myself and I was ready to just be open and completely try new things. And with that, I was able to find things like a Wayne Dyer was a big help for me and finding spirituality, You know, Cultivating hobbies and rediscovering things I used to be into when I was like in my teens and starting to do those again. And you know, Spending time around good people and just being open with how I felt. And I got really good feedback and one of finding things that really worked for me. Right. But yeah, It sounds like you cut out stuff that wasn't working. That's a big part, I think in the second peak, If you will. I heard a great quote the other day and they said, Happiness isn't adding more stuff to your life. It's removing the things that are getting in your way. Right. And I know you work a lot with people with limiting beliefs and removing blocks from themselves. And that's, I agree with that a hundred percent. You know, There's definitely things that, That you're doing. Especially my first journey, Like it was removing things was really, Really big ways of thinking the ways that I thought of myself, My identity habits and things like that. And what I did with the newer one was I kind of removed that my identity was so tied around meeting women. And once I got that out of the way, I had an open slate to kind of, To kind of rediscover other things that made me happy. So it was kind of like a fun journey of discovering things and rediscovering. I think like that's a trap I've seen in a lot of guys. Like a lot of the guys that I started studying pickup with many years ago I'd see them progress, Maybe even faster than me. Maybe they slept with 200, 300 women, But they still hated themselves. And then they're in their thirties and they're still sleeping with a new woman every couple of days. And they still hate themselves. And when I was younger, I remember, I remember actually this guy who's maybe 10 years old with him and he was talking to me about how he went through a journey that I was starting and he's sleeping with all these women, But it didn't make him happy. And at the time I hardly slept with any women. So I was just like, Well, I don't care if I'm miserable. You gotta find it out for yourself, Right? Yeah. Dan Bilzerian has a thing like, As a quote, I think he said on Joe Rogan, Like, Of course money and women won't make you happy, But until you have access to it, You won't really know. I watched that whole episode twice. Yeah, That makes perfect sense. There's something to that. Obviously, If you could be spiritually evolved faster, You can see it, But you don't really feel it. I mean, As far as having access to the material thing, Even if it is lower or whatever. Yeah. A lot of those things we have to discover for ourselves, Right? Cause it's like, It's easier said than done. Like, You know, Right now, If you told me, You know, Being a billionaire won't make me happy, I'd be like, Well, Let me damn sure find that out first that I'll let you know how it is. I'll gladly move forward on that. But you know, Seeing that the women didn't make me completely fulfilled, I could see now definitely more clearly that money and all these other things, They're not the answer either. You know, There's many studies on happiness. I've, I've looked up a lot of them and they all kind of say the same thing. And none of them say money or material possessions, Not even close. Is it something like after 75 grand a year, Money doesn't make a difference, But until then you do kind of need it right. Amir doesn't contribute to happiness. Yeah. I've seen that one, You know, I mean, Everyone has a different type of lifestyle too, Right? Like some people are really into the material stuff and whatever. I'm really not, You know, Even though I got to, I moved into a cool house, Right. But I have it with a roommate and I pay as much as I would from my studio apartment that I had before. Right. So like, It depends on, You know, You finding what makes you happy and if it's influenced by what other people think, You know, You go into the best restaurants and traveling and wearing cool clothes and this and that, You know, I just saw a blog post talking about the millionaire next door and they're saying like the people in the fancy neighborhoods of the fancy cars weren't the millionaires. They were in debt, You know, Probably under a ton of stress, But the people who had just enough and lived their lives on their own terms and, You know, Had some savings and interest coming back, Those are the people who were definitely more happy. Yeah. Yeah. Simplicity. Yeah. On the cutting out thing, I met another guy when I, I mean, This is maybe 10 years ago. He was an older dude, But he was like, Life is like a diamond. The way to play life is like a diamond. Like when you're younger, You're branching out and trying to find all this stuff, But at a certain point you have to subtract and focus on what's meaningful because you keep seeking out outward and outward, You're going to go nuts. That's a great analogy. Yeah. So, Yeah, I mean, I didn't think of the 1929 things when you brought it up, But when I turned 30 last year, I made a whole list of stuff that was cutting out and like even little things, Like I don't go to birthday parties and bars anymore. I don't like watch TV after midnight, Like little things. My life is a lot more, I don't drink beer with hops in it. I just don't like it. You know, I made a very specific list and yeah, I mean, I didn't add anything to my life, But I just noticed I have more time for what I care about. That's what I'm doing now in my personal life is I'm subtracting things and trying to get rid of them. I mean, A friend invited me to a landmark thing the other day and I've heard good stuff about landmark and whatnot, But I told him, I said, You know, I'm really not interested because I know what I want to do. I know what I want to focus on. I don't want more, Like I don't want a whole nother method and a whole nother thing of doing. Now that being said, I am very open-minded and I'll take information and this and that, But you know, I don't want to undergo another big seminar thing and a whole nother way of thinking, Kind of read new stuff. I'm happy with some of the way things are. And I do kind of like you're saying, Get rid of certain beliefs and ideas and other things that aren't serving me. One of them that I just got rid of was porn and masturbation. I completely cut that out a couple of months ago. And you know, I've seen so many studies and everything on it. And then I was like, Fuck it, Let me just try for a bit. My energy has gotten way better. I get out and I'm way more social and I've actually been losing a lot of weight too. I think it definitely affects your hormones and your testosterone and things like that too. So that's like, I was seeing the number one advertiser on Pornhub is Seamless. Is the food delivery. Seamless or Grubhub. Okay. And they realize that's the most profitable place to advertise this guy's drinking off on order hamburgers. They want to eat bullshit after that, I'm sure. Or like if not, You have to go out and meet the one and be like, Well, Shit, I want to be in good shape. So you're just eating probably good stuff. There's got to be some type of mental effect that goes with the two. That's a real good one recently that I cut out. That's been really well for me. Yeah. I like what you said about reducing information like with a landmark thing. I think the thing that makes me think of is at a certain point in my life, I realized I didn't need to try to sleep with every single woman I had a chance with. I think that's like an idea I try to get to a lot of guys. That's the shift into abundance. It doesn't matter how many women you have in your life. It's like when you're no longer like thirsty for every single drop of woman you can possibly get, That's when you're like, Okay, This part of my life is complete enough. I can go work on other things as opposed to being desperate for the next woman the whole rest of your life. Oh yeah. That desperation is terrible. And it's like a rabbit hole that a lot of these guys never feel. And once you've had some experience, You've been around a bit, I always say a funny analogy. A lot of times just hooking up with girls, If it's an empty type of thing, It could be just like eating cake. It looks good. It tastes good going down. But after you're like, Should I really have done that? Was that really worth the whole thing and this and that. And it's okay if you want to hook up with someone every now and then and you're traveling this and that. Look, I'm not wanting to judge or whatnot, But I found for myself that it's definitely the novelty. It definitely doesn't mean anything like it used to before. But that's everyone's journey to come to the other end of that. So what was it like moving from working with Savoy to do your own thing? Because I don't know much about him. I just remember that when I was first reading on pickup, These were like the superhero names that I would see on the fast seduction. Net or whatever. Yeah, I work with him and Future and Ten Magnet and all these other guys that were big names and stuff like that. And I'll keep them completely separate. But just in general, I'll just say one thing. Just because someone has. . . Now, These guys were all great. They're all awesome. I learned a lot from them. And especially the guys through that company were legit. They all had to be vouched for and all that. So they're really legit. But I'm just going to say just in general, A lot of these guys, Just because they have a reach and popularity does not mean that they're really anything special. Marketing, As you know, Marketing is a very big thing in this industry. I mean, Probably some of the highest selling products in the dating industry were video sales letters of cartoons that no one even knows who the guy is who wrote them. And I've read some of these products like, Man, This is the worst advice I've ever seen. But with good marketing behind them, They've had a lot of reach. I do think some of David D'Angelo stuff was really good back in the day. But who knows if David D'Angelo even didn't approach? He's a marketer. Yeah, I met him at a party once actually. And I told him, Your free emails changed my life. They were the best. Yeah. I never actually bought any of this stuff. I actually pirated it because I was in high school. I did too. It was all really easy to fire. But it was great. I mean, It made me realize like, Oh, I mean, This is what it means to be cocky in a way that's attractive and like, Okay, I get it. But he didn't seem like anything special in person. Everybody's human and everyone's normal. I mean, I've met mystery and all these guys and all these dudes. And it's like, We have this hero worship type of thing. And it's like, No one's a hero. Everyone's just a human and they have bad days too. And there's nothing that special. And I wanted to become one of the top guys in that company. And I remember I was on like a big tear and I was training other instructors and people thought I was like the top guy for a while when I was there for a bit. But that comes and goes too. What does that even matter? I told another instructor the other day, I was like, Who am I? Who cares? You know, I have bad nights and bad times or whatever. The real thing that I think is cool is, Yeah, If you could do it, That's great. But if you can teach it and you actually care about the students, I think that's what makes a really good coach and a really good instructor. Cause I seen guys, I seen guys who are amazing with women and the stuff they could go out and do was incredible, Right? Super high level. But they weren't that great of coaches. Right. And then the guys who were like famous dating coaches or whatever, They didn't give a shit about the students. So they were terrible coaches. Right. So it depends on what you're looking for, Especially if you're looking these guys up. So I wouldn't really worship someone until you meet them and you vibe with them. And if they can give you something good, I still wouldn't worship them, But you know, I'd give them, I'd work with them. If you, If you vibe with them, That's what I always tell people work with coaches that you, That you feel resonate with you. So what is it like when you start working with someone, Like let's say shy guy says, Joe, Hey, I want to work with you. Like you start them on approaches or do you work on inner stuff first? Like how does that work? It depends definitely on where they're at. And it depends on what type of training we're doing. I don't really do much phone coaching anymore because I don't really enjoy one-on-one phone coaching as much. I enjoy things like this, Right? So, So just real quick back to what we said before about me, Nodding, Me not wanting to take a new seminar and learn a bunch of new stuff. I'd much rather sit down with you and have one of these conversations and come to a lot of cool realizations and connect with you, You know, Then, Then go and sit in a classroom for a weekend and learn a whole bunch of stuff just at this moment. Right. I find personally that my education comes in waves. I don't know if, If, How it is for you, But there'll be a point where I'm like watching YouTube seminars, I'm reading books and I'm soaking in information. I want to learn everything I can. I just injured my shoulder a couple of weeks ago. So now I'm an expert on shoulder injuries and shoulder rehab, Right? Cause I just hammered that information this week. Cause that's what I want to learn. Right. But the shoulder is feeling better this weekend. I want to just go out and have fun and be in nature. Right. So I have been no mood to, To, To, To really read or soak in information this weekend. So I find that that goes up and down for me. There's moments where I'm ready to take in a lot of info and then I need to go through a phase of digesting that information and applying it and seeing how it fits in my life. And then after I do that, Then usually I'm open to taking in more. Now that being said, I'm always open to a lesson if it comes up. Right. But that's just one thing I was saying about taking in the information. So back to, Like you said, If I start working with somebody, So usually I take guys in a bootcamp, Which is like a three day weekend thing. We do three days of seminar, Two nights of going out and approaching women. You know, The whole point of that is to take a guy who's never approached women before, Teach them what to say, Teach them how to do it, Talk about inner game and self-confidence and self-esteem and all that stuff. And then we go out at night, You know, I give them the conversation skills. We work on them in class and they go up and approach women, Carry the conversations, You know, Eventually, You know, Get phone numbers and whatever, But usually by the second night, Every guy, I mean, I don't think, I can't think of any student that I've taken out that wasn't able to approach and carry a really solid conversation by the second night. So that's pretty much the guarantee for that program, Which is cool because it's like the key to get in the door. And then from there, Obviously you can pursue and do whatever you want, But that's like the main thing that I teach really. Cool. Cool. How do you work with a guy on conversation skills? I don't know if it's given away too much of your stuff, But like when- No, It's all good, Man. We're only meeting for an hour and I teach a 20 hour weekend thing. So that's really nice. A guy is like, He just goes blank. Like that was the thing for me. Like I would just go blank when I speak to someone. It's like my just words were not forming. Like how do you- Absolutely. So we've mapped it out, Right? So we'll say we got a piece of paper here, Right? So we will map it out. We'll say, Okay, So here's this conversation. You say, Hi, I'm Joe. And she says, Hey, I'm Megan. And then it's like, Okay, Now I'm stuck. What do I say after that? So then we brainstorm. What can you say? You could say, Where are you from? What do you do? What are you up to tonight? How long you been in town? Whatever. And we'll brainstorm a bunch of questions. And then we could kind of pick from those questions and see which ones work for you. And then what I'll do for guys too, One simple tip that I give guys all the time is it's okay to ask questions in the beginning, But the thing you want to do is answer the question for yourself. That's a big mistake guys make is they'll say, Okay, Where are you from? Okay, Cool. What do you do? Where'd you go to school? Where'd you study? And they're totally moving on where just a simple question like, Where are you from? Can take you on a whole journey, Right? Where you grew up, Why you're here now, What you like to do in town, What you think of the city, What you think of the people, Right? So I teach guys to kind of take a single question that we pick and kind of branch it out into a lot of different ways that we can talk about it. So that's definitely one technique that I like to do that really helps guys open up conversation, Right? So for example, The girls, You say to a girl, You know, Hi, I want to come and meet you, Right? I'm Joe. She says, Hi, I'm Megan. You say, Megan, Where are you from? And she gives you a one word response. She's like, Oh, I'm from New York. Like, Okay, Cool. You know, I'm actually originally from New York as well too. You can ask her deeper, Like, You know, What part are you from? Or you could tell a story, You know, What I like about the people in New York are like this, This, This, This, And this. Usually she'll comment on that. She doesn't, You could say, Now I moved over to here. And what I've found about here is this, This, This, This, This. And what I like to do here is, And you could just, You can just add all these elements and it starts to open up the conversation. So I tell guys when you have a topic to stick to it and kind of expand it out a little bit more, That's one that helps a lot. And then another one that I do too which is the opposite of that is just using humor. I love to tell guys to use humor. Right. And these are old like back in the day where they had, You know, Specific lines and stuff they did, But I like to work on them with the students in the class. Right. So back to that question, Right? If you say, Where are you from? And she says, I'm from New York. And you can say, Okay, Cool. I'm from, And then you answer in your own question again. Right. Okay, Cool. I'm from, And then you could pick somewhere crazy or somewhere that doesn't exist, Right? You could say I'm actually from Westeros. Have you ever heard of it? And you're like, No, I'll be like, Yeah, You know, I'm from this park called King's Landing and I come from royalty. My brother's a midget and I'm trying to take over the throne by the end of this year, But I only have one more season left to do it. Right. Or whatever. So that's a Game of Thrones reference obviously, But you can just come up with something that's total bullshit and out from left field. And it actually does a lot of things. It's pattern interrupt, It helps women know that you're not taking yourself too seriously. They can relax, Not take themselves too seriously. It can spike good emotions. It could filter if a girl has a sense of humor, Which is you are pretty interested in a girl who has a little lighter and sense of humor. So it does a lot of things. So those two are like two things that I recommend right off the bat that can help a lot to open up a conversation. Have you done improv? I have not, But I teach a lot of improv stuff. I learned it from other instructors. One of the guys I learned from was an improv comedian. So he taught me a lot of this stuff. Cool. Yeah. It reminds me of one of the things that they teach in improv is you don't ask your scene partner questions because you're putting the pressure on them to come up with something. And you think of the question, But then answer your own question, Just making a statement and you're giving them value and giving them something to riff off of instead of forcing them to answer your question. Yeah. That's what it is. It's giving them something to kind of work with. I learned about a principle called disclosure reciprocity. And what that principle was is that if you divulge information about yourself, The other person's more likely to reciprocate, Which our instincts is to go in and just ask question after question. You approach the girl, She's not going to give you that much information. So you have to share about yourself as well. It goes back to the go first principle of NLP as well too. Yeah. I mean, I think this could apply to even sexual escalation. I always frame flirting to guys as like you're hitting a ball over the net and if you spike it in the beginning, Obviously she's going to get creeped out. Or if you ask her to serve it to you, She's going to be like, I don't want to do that. I'm busy. But if you tap it over the net, You give her something, She could tap it back and then eventually speeds up and it goes from saying hello and asking where you're from to something physical and making out going on. But it's like this understanding the momentum back and forth and giving them something to hit back to you and waiting for them to hit something to use. You can hit it back instead of trying to score on the first volley if you will. It's so true, Man. It's funny because whenever I meet somebody like yourself who's had a lot of life experience and is a great coach and done this stuff for a while, I wind up hearing things that resonate with other people of the same class. So like I remember the guys who taught me used to call it pinging and they'd say, You try something by going first and you ping and then see if she pongs back and forth. So it's going to throw it out there first. She comes in. So it's exactly what you just said. I like your volleyball analogy better instead of ping pong. But yeah, It's the exact same idea. Metaphors for flirting. Cool, Man. Do you have any stories like your hardest client? I'm always interested in that from coaches. Like I still have challenging clients sometimes. Sure. Yeah. I like to screen guys out before I work with them. So I don't always, It's very rare that I have a very difficult client because I could tell if they have, Most guys don't have much skepticism. Like all I need from a client is to have an open mind and be willing to do what I say. That's it. And if they have that, It's good. My toughest students that I'll run into every now and then is what I call the yeah, But student. Hey man, So we're going to go out, We're going to try this and I want you to go and do five approaches and this is what you say and then give it a shot. He's like, Yeah, That'll work. But and what the, What they do is every time they say the yeah, But they're coming up with an excuse before they actually do it. Right. So every now and then I'll run into a student like that, That'll kind of have some pushback. And what I try to tell them is like, Look, You know, This is just the stuff that I've done for a long time. It's worked for so many people and you just have to have some faith, Some blind faith and just try it. You know, The best students that I work with are the ones that say, Tell me what to do. I'll go and do it. I just talked to a student yesterday and he's like, Let me pull up the, What he said. I thought it was so interesting. And he said, He said, I said, I'd take your advice to a T and I think I, I have, And I've had a really good outcome. Right. So he just took the advice. He did it right. No questions asked and he's been doing great. Right. And I don't mind questions, But the thing is a lot of those questions that come up are like blocks and the main beliefs and all that stuff that start to get in the way. So I try to coach guys through those. But a big thing that I struggle with, And I think these guys struggle with too every now and then is I want to have everything figured out before I went and did it. That's the biggest, That's the biggest thing that these guys get held back. Right. So I wanted to have a comeback for every scenario. I wanted to be ready for everything that could happen before it actually happened. But as we know, That's not how you learn where you got to go out there and fail and make a mess and learn it on your own. Right. So I like to give the meat and potatoes of what to say and do, But I tell them to go out there and really experiment with it and see kind of what happens. But yeah, I think there's a faith element, Especially someone who's all feared up. I really want to control everything because they're what they're really afraid of is the unknown, Right? It's not even rejection. I mean, Rejection sometimes for, I think I've found for these types of guys is almost better because they feel like, Okay, I got rejected. It reinforces that I'm unlovable and I could go back into my hole. But like, It's a tangible outcome. Yeah, The uncertainty, The intangible situation is what they're so terrified of. And I think this is how kind of pickup led to spirituality for me. It's like really accepting and embracing the unknown. Like just not having to figure it out in advance, Like just knowing, Trusting whatever, Trusting your instincts or the universe, If you will, That things will turn out right if you just show up. I think it's a hard hurdle for a lot of people, Especially analytical men. It's funny you say that, Man, That goes in line with something I've just started teaching myself as well, Too. Just one more note on difficult students. The funny note is the most difficult students that I've had, I can only think of two from the past that were really tough. Were actually guys I didn't talk to before I trained them. So they were actually students that when I was with another company, They sold the student and the student kind of didn't want to be there or another friend introduced me to a student that he convinced to train with me. And then when I showed up there, We hadn't talked beforehand and that those were the only times I've had a difficulty, But just a conversation would have kind of weeded that out. But back to what you're saying, I tell guys that there's two parts of confidence. The one part is confidence in your game plan. Like I'm going to go up and approach women. What do I say? What do I do? That type of thing. So a lot of dating and pickup stuff taught that. Here's lines, Here's routines. But then the other second half of confidence is exactly what you just said right there, Which was super cool, Is having a faith in yourself that, Hey, Look, This guy gave me this thing and like, I'm going to try it. And if it doesn't go well, Whatever, I trust myself that the worst that can happen, I'll handle it. Right. And maybe I'll come up with something on the spot. So I teach on my boot camps to say there's two different types of guys and they could have the same level of game, Right. Or they could know the same skills or the same, Whatever. But one guy believes in himself that whatever happens, He'll handle it. And the other guy is very insecure that what, I don't know what, If whatever happens, I won't be able to handle it. And he has no security in himself. The guy, The first guy will get better much quicker, Even with the same level of skills, Because he's going to go and take more action because he's like, Oh, Fuck it. If I fuck up, It's okay. I'll learn a lesson from it. Right. And I'll tell myself that, You know, I can handle it. Right. The other guy is like, Oh, Shit. Well, No, Now I need more information before I go and take the action because he doesn't have that faith in himself. So yeah, That's actually really in line with students and the ones that have a tougher time than ones who do great. Yeah, It resonates with me a lot because one of the things that pulled me away from pickup and I worked with and for DJ Fuji for a while, I think came from Love Systems at one point on remembering. Sure. I know Jared pretty well. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. My first boot camp was with Jared. Great guy. Yeah, I love him many, Many years ago. But one thing I liked about them is they didn't really teach canned routines so much. But I found that even with improv games, I kind of got into this mode where in the club, I could ask a question, Answer my own question, Say something silly, Get her laughing. Yeah. As soon as we left for as soon as we went on that first date, I was suddenly like in an unknown and I was like, I would be sweating bullets when we were making out last night and I found that it only worked in certain environments because I was training myself only to prepare for a specific thing rather than to prepare for the unknown. So I would be comfortable in the bar, But then it'd be super awkward in parties with regular people. And it was just like, Oh man, Do I need to learn a game for every single possible social situation ever? That's going to take me 40 years to figure it out. And that's kind of what pulled me into the more inner game stuff of like trusting myself. And I forget what you just said. You said some line, Which I like, Like being with yourself or trusting your own. I don't remember what you said. Yeah. Having faith that whatever happens, You'll handle it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, That to me is the root of spirituality actually. Like I just wrote an email to my list about my skepticism of spirituality. I got into kind of an argument with a friend over email about it, But like to me, All spirituality is is trusting the non-conscious part of yourself, Whether you call it God or whatever, Like that's it to me. I agree. And that's in your game. Yeah. It's, That's so huge. I always say that confidence can be contextual, Right? Or like I'm definitely more comfortable in a bar or a lounge or a club approaching women than I am, Let's say in the middle of the aisle at the grocery store. Right. Because that's just something I don't do that much. You know, I don't go around, I don't run circles around the grocery store looking for women to approach. Right. But I've been out for many weekends for 12 years. And in there I go around and can socialize like crazy. But it took me a while to get more comfortable in parties. And I do talk to them in the grocery store now too. But it took me a little while to get comfortable in those other situations too. And that's cool what you said, Which I love is that I think a lot of my own inner development and confidence in myself has helped me to try those situations out more. Like, Fuck it, Whatever happens, Who cares? I'll learn a lesson. Right. I just, It's not going to be that bad. So I've actually gained more confidence to do things that I'm more uncomfortable with because of developing more faith in myself, Which is super cool. Yeah. And I do, I mean, I might overuse the whole hero's journey analogy in a person's life, But I do think once you've gone through one cycle of overcoming some pain, You're getting through some abyss, Whether it's at 19 or 29 or whatever in your life, It kind of reinforces in your mind like, Oh, I can overcome shit. So when new things come across, Like you, You conquer club games, Suddenly dating is like, You know, It's possible. Like, Cause you've viscerally felt yourself change over time. And yeah, I think that's why, That's why, You know, The hero's journey is so pervasive in movies now, Because we want to keep getting that reinforced message like, Oh, Luke Skywalker can evolve, You know, Like Spiderman can overcome. So yeah, That's what we're all searching for. I think now more than ever men, But I think all people are kind of starving for that message, Which is why people like Jordan Peterson are rising in popularity and stuff. Like people are, Men are craving this message like, Oh, It's possible for me to change. It's kind of like what we got from David D'Angelo many years ago. Just simply that idea getting into our head. It's funny you mentioned that. I use the Luke Skywalker analogy all the time when I talk about the hero's journey, You know, George Lucas actually credits the guy who wrote the book about the hero's journey. I forget what his name was, But Joseph Campbell, He credits Joseph Campbell for coming up with a lot of the ideas for Star Wars. And one thing I do on the first day of my boot camps is I ask around the room, I say, What's your favorite movie? And I ask guys around, What's one of your favorite movies? And everybody names them around. And I'm like, What's the cool part about that? And everyone's like the journey, The journey, The journey, The journey, The journey. So I get them to kind of see and notice that it's the journey that is the cool part of all this. Right. And you know, That's, And I tell them that because I don't want them to look past it. You know, I don't want them to say, Okay, When I get to that destination, Then I'll be happy. Right. And once I get there, That's it. I'm like, Dude, The journey is the fun part. We sit down and pay the money to watch the movie because we want to see the struggle. We want to see the hard time. So you really want to find the juice in that journey because like, Dude, Let's say me and you had everything we wanted right now. Let's say, Let's say we had all the money we'd ever need and women and what, And all this other stuff. It would be boring. It'd be super boring. Number one. And probably the first thing that you do, Just from me knowing you from a short time, I know for sure the first thing I would do is start another journey. Yeah, Exactly. Right. I'd start a mental health nonprofit or like I have some other ideas of something I do, Or I coach more and expand that reach more. And there's always another journey that you start. I mean, You could see it with even celebrities and people who are famous, Right? Like they're, They're taking up an instrument, Right? Like I love Jeff Goldblum and he's like playing piano and like trying, And now he put out a jazz album, Right? Like the dude doesn't need to be a famous musician. He's already a famous actor and has a family and money, But he started another journey. Something that he's excited about. Right. So yeah, Not in a while though. Okay. Well, I mean, I'm spoiler alert to whoever, But like at the end of the movie, He realizes he accomplished his mission a long time ago because he has amnesia. He already killed the bad guy, But every time he reconvinces himself that the bad guy's not dead and he goes off and kills a new person, Which is dark, But it's like, He needs to have a constant struggle. So he's like perpetually trying to kill the same guy over and over again. We all have to have some, You know, That, That, That thing to do. And yeah, I just encourage the guys to not look past it so much. Cause I know I made that mistake a lot, Especially my twenties. I looked past the journey and now I look back and like, Oh my God, There was so many cool and funny and great things that happened when I was learning this shit. And I was, Dude, I was so happy. Like when I was really deep in this stuff, Yeah, There was a lot of pain and failure, But now if I think back, I would, I would jump out of bed, Ready to, To, To read books and go out at night and take me like, I was so jazzed up and motivated and excited to improve that part of my life. You know, And I think it's just a great, It's such a great thing to have something that you're really passionate about. And I think being a beginner is an advantage. That's another thing I tell guys being a beginner is an advantage because you have that whole journey to go, Right. And you get it. You're not, You're not on the top of the Hill. It's lonely at the top of the Hill. Right. And being a beginner to go is a great, Great place to be. Yeah. I'm trying to think if I was in your bootcamp and you asked me if they were moving, I'd probably say fight club. And I wonder what that says. I just want to burn shit down. I wanted to when I started at least. I guess it's a journey of its own self discovery, I guess. Right. And a journey away from, From materialism and, And, Uh, And the nine to five and all that other stuff to realize that none of that shit really matters at the end. Right. Even that's, That's a journey too. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually assign guys to watch fight club when, Especially when they're like, Shaming their own inner darkness or their own dark impulses for lust or for violence. Like it's because that's, That's part of the male psyche and not that we should act on all those impulses, But it's really important to embrace and accept that's part of you. Cause that's where you're for the lack of a better term, Like masculine power comes from. Acceptance is one of the toughest things guys struggle with. Yeah. And then I think that's cool. Yeah. Even that area of yourself too, You really got to accept cause that part can be very hard to accept. Yeah. Yeah. So what jazzes you up now, Now that you've completed a journey of sorts? That's a great question, Man. I love your, I love your questions. You're asking about so many awesome questions. Um, You know, I actually, I write in my journal all the time, You know, Things that I want to do and I want to accomplish a big thing that I'm really excited about right now is, You know, I've been coaching and helping people for a while, Even since I was like, That's, That's definitely my calling. It's my passion. Even when I was in high school, I was writing kids, Workout routines and helping them with their diets and stuff like that. I was a personal trainer, A fitness trainer for years, Even before I became a dating coach. And um, You know, I always wanted to help people, But, Um, I read, I've been reading this blog about this guy, Mr. Money mustache. I don't know if you've heard of him before, But he's like, His whole thing is like anti-consumerism saving money, Building a nest egg, You know, Having interest. Right. So his whole thing is to like, Earn your money, Earn as much money as you can live as, As simple as you can without spending on shit you don't need and then save money to invest it so that you could have enough interest from investments to kind of cover your basic expenses. And he's saying, Once you have that freedom and you're not worried about like where your next paycheck's coming from, You can then go and do the work that you want to do without having to need it for money. Because I definitely have noticed that, You know, If I'm teaching students and I'm, And I don't have much money and then the money they're paying me is like the money I need for my rent. I don't have any savings or anything like that. I'm not as good of a coach, You know, I'm more stressed out and, And, And I can't really be, Sometimes I can't be honest. Well, No, I'm actually always honest, But you know, Sometimes like I'm trying to be like maybe extra nice instead of being brutally honest, Like afraid to offend them or something like that. Right. So that is kind of my goal. I've been saving a lot of money recently and it's been going well, And I just want to continue to save money so that I have that sort of nest egg with interest. That'll kind of pay just for my living expenses. You know, That could be 20 to $30, 000 a year in interest, Which doesn't have to be a, I don't need to be a gazillionaire, But having that money that covers the base will give me more peace of mind. And then I want to just serve full time, Just serve and help people. I want to devote, Which I already do a lot, Obviously, But I really want to devote full time to just helping people and not worrying about how much money I'm making from it. That's that's that really excites me. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I think that's something that's not often spoken about that. Obviously the pursuit of cash is fun in itself. And serving is fun, But like the connection people like kind of overlook in that to really be a value and to be able to give selflessly, You kind of have to have yourself covered, Right? And being worried about your rent and also being generous at the same time. And yeah, A lot of that perspective hit me last year when I moved from New York to Thailand, Cause like my cost of living dropped by like, I used to live in New York. I know about it. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, Man, Like the, What I would spend on a smoothie can feed a family of six and 10 bucks on a smoothie in New York. And it's just like, Man, Like I have my, My view on money has been so skewed my whole life. I didn't really look at it on a global level. And now I'm cutting my costs so I can actually, I'm going to plug my charity that I started recently. It's called the neighbor fund. You put in 10 bucks and then everyone in the group votes on where to spend it. So we just started a month ago. So we're actually probably going to be distributing to Asia and then somewhere in New York. That's beautiful, Man. Yeah. So and it's like, It feels good because now I'm not putting a ton of money into this thing, But it's money that I don't need for myself so I can deploy it for a greater good elsewhere. And it's still a relatively small amount, But like, It can really add up if everyone just puts in a little bit and it's like reinforcing to yourself that this money is better spent on your good feelings than it is on another three smoothies. Right? Like the smoothies are not going to contribute to your happiness. I love it, Man. And I, I think that's super cool. Right. And it's another thing I've been teaching ladies. You have to define what's cool for you. Right. Like I was just in Miami coaching two weeks ago. Right. And as we're rolling up to the club where live is, It's like a big club in Miami. I mean, There's yachts lined up and one of the yachts had a helicopter on it. And then there's Lamborghinis and Rolls Royces and all these things getting out. And like, I don't think that shit is cool at all. Like I don't, I think that shit's all a waste of money. And you know, Maybe if I took a ride on the yacht and like I took a picture on the, On one of the yachts, My buddy had, Yeah, The cool, Whatever, But you wouldn't catch me dead spending my money on any of that stuff. What I think is cool is what you just said, You know, Things like charity and helping other people out. Like, I think that's fucking super awesome, You know? And you know, I try to live my life more so that way, You know, Even though on Instagram and in advertising and all these other things, They want you to buy the cars and go on the trips and get the $10, 000 table at the club next to the DJ. But you know, That stuff is not what I'm into. I've never been into it. And no matter how much people push it down your throat, Cause they want you to buy shit. I'm not into it, You know? And I think, You know, What you're doing is, Is fucking awesome, Man. So I'll give you a lot of props and, And respect for that, Man. Cause that's cool to me. And that's what I think. And I think the thing you just said about consumerism, It ties to back to like the man's hero's journey, If you will. Cause I think it was just not my own idea, But 50 years ago, A man was a man at 18. You graduate high school, You're expected to hold shit down, Have a family, Do your job. A couple hundred years before that, It was like 13. You were actually a man at 13, Not yet a bar mitzvah, But you actually are a man. You can have your own, You know? And then nowadays, Like sometimes men aren't actually men until their thirties. Absolutely. That's very common. But they're acting like a kid or they're at, They need to rely on their parents emotionally, If not financially. Or they're living at their parents. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, And I think what drives it is consumerism. Like it's like this idea, Like you need, The society wants to keep you as a kid longer because when you're a kid, You're incomplete need to buy more shit. You need to spend more money on things you don't need, Need to buy that smoothie because it'll add to your image because they'll make people like you. It's an interesting point. Yeah. And you're not an adult. So I think, Yeah, I mean a lot of this stuff ties together. Yeah. That's something that I've been interested in a lot and like I've always been, I always thought saving money and like not spending much was cool, But now like I've really embraced that. We're like, Cause it's very anti mainstream, Right? Like no one's going to post online, Hey, I got this thing. And I got a good deal on it. Right? No. Like you ought to say, I've got the most expensive thing ever and take a picture with that $10 smoothie on your Instagram story and all that other stuff like that. But I'm just, I'm trying to really get past that as much as possible to do what I think is really cool. And it's tough with dating too, Right? Cause you know, Girls really respond to, You know, Girls say they want to go on trips and they want to travel and you and guys are going, You got to take them out to expensive dinners and all this other shit like that, But like this, That's just something that's not, I don't even go out to eat much. I cook all my food at home. I eat pretty healthy. So like, That's just something that I'm not interested in. Yeah. I think it takes some balls and maybe even a little faith to go against that. Cause the whole expensive dinner showing up in a nice car thing is it's very like primitive, Like like literal peacocking. Like, Hey, Look at my feathers. Like, Oh yeah. But if you actually have game, You don't need, You don't need to do that. It might be a little, It might take an extra step. It might take a little more. But that's the, That's the thing, Man. That's the thing. Yeah. The best one of my months where I did the best with women when I first moved here to Texas, I was crashed on my buddy's couch. So it's like, You know, You really don't, That stuff's all bullshit, Man. That's all think about how much money is spent in the United States alone because guys think they need to spend all this money to impress women. Yeah. Or women spend on beauty to impress men. Like that's kind of like, Those are the biggest industries. Or to impress other men or wrestle their women. Right. Like, God, It's so crazy, Man. Yeah. Well, Anyway, This has been awesome. I'm glad we connected. It's been fun talking to you. Oh yeah, Dude, You seem super cool. And I love doing things like this because you know, I, Whenever I meet somebody like you, I'm like, Man, We could just chat till the end of time. You know, You're such a developed and interesting and deep person. So I really enjoy having this conversation, Man. I think this is, And I think it's really cool. You're doing a podcast. I think this is the funnest and one of the best ways to give value to people. Just have a really great conversation. And there's just so much value in this. So I appreciate you having me on. Absolutely. Where do you live by the way? Austin, Texas. Oh, Cool. Okay, Cool. Yeah. I lived there last two years ago for a minute. Oh, Nice. Yeah. It's my favorite city, Man. I moved to LA, But LA is too materialistic. This is my favorite city in the US. Cool. And how can people find out more if they want to work with you or learn more? Oh yeah. You can go to joedukard. Com. D-U-C-A-R-D. I have links to my YouTube channel. I have a free flirting guide on there. And yeah, The most, The main recurring sources of free value that I give are my YouTube channel. I put about a video a week out. I have an email list you could join up for, And then I have a free Facebook group where you can ask questions and stuff like that. And then, You know, If you're interested in coaching down the line, That's easy to find, But yeah, Definitely start with the free stuff. Cool. Awesome, Man. I appreciate your speaking to you. I'm sure we'll be in touch. You too. Yeah. Thanks so much. Hey, Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you want to catch the rest of my work, Go to Luanda. Com. Catch me on social media, At Luanda. And please do not forget to subscribe.