Racing To Save A Dying Man With Cindy Klinger

So I want to do something a little bit different to open up this interview and have you share a piece that you wrote about your loss?

Sure.

So it's just titled Dad.

I wrote this at 1.

30 in the morning several months after my dad died and I just could not sleep and it just kind of came tumbling out of my head.

Okay.

Five months before my dad killed himself,

He texted me that he had had his arteries checked and they were all clear.

I have to be around for my girl,

He wrote.

That's how I know how out of his mind he was when he died,

Singularly focused on ending his pain.

My dad said things like that a lot.

He was prolific when it came to letting me know how much I was loved.

We were in touch every day pretty much.

He'd often tell me how lucky he was to have me as a daughter,

Check in to see how my day was going,

Or text me a good night,

Honey.

He would ask me to text him after I landed safely on the ground after a flight.

He didn't want me to struggle and made sure I didn't want for much.

That's why I was still on the family cell phone plan at 35 and why he tacked my car and why he tacked my car onto his XM radio package and why he regularly asked how I was doing financially if I needed a little cushion given my writer grad school nutritionist salaries over the years.

Once in a while,

He'd send me photo collages of myself as a little girl and write on them words like,

No one was as cute as you.

Oh,

The biased eyes of a parent.

If he could have transported me back in time to when I was two and lived in the room above his,

He would have.

Even though at that age,

I would wake him up regularly just to let him know I couldn't sleep.

I called him for advice,

Ranging from solving car issues to figuring out my finances and relationship concerns.

A big tech and gadget whiz,

He would set up my computers,

Give me tutorials on iPhone features,

And offer me hand-me-down iPads,

Speakers,

And digital cameras.

He helped me figure out how I could afford my first condo,

Coming to the closing to make sure I asked all the right questions.

When I moved to new cities,

He was there helping me pack hanging pictures in apartments,

Buying me a winter coat and a nice dinner or two.

I leaned on him more than I should have,

But it was okay.

He'd be around until I learned the ways of the world.

He thought I was naive to those ways,

Too idealistic and not pragmatic enough.

I thought he was too conservative and closed-minded.

He started showing signs of anxiety and depression in 2005,

Ten years before he died.

Episodes of the come and go then became more frequent.

Acethesia,

A side effect of the psychotropic medications he was on,

Was what ultimately drove him to suicide.

He couldn't stop moving.

He'd lie down to sleep and bolt right back up,

Pace around the house,

Stomp in place,

Even try to jump out of moving cars.

We learned that the inner restlessness is too much to take for most people,

And death often becomes the only welcome relief.

He,

Like others,

Described it as torture.

We tried Western and Eastern approaches,

Neurofeedback,

ECT,

Talk therapy,

Neurotransmitter support,

Supplements,

Energy work,

New doctors.

It was becoming a permanent situation,

And he saw his future looking bleaker and bleaker.

Don't worry about anything he would tell me sometimes during his healthy moments.

Let me do the worrying for you.

I never did,

And I realized that no one can do the worrying for anyone else.

We can support each other,

Of course,

But we must carry our own burdens.

My tough storytelling dynamic,

Street Smart Dad,

Was more fragile than we ever knew.

When I had to learn the ways of the world,

It was quick and fast.

I met with a lawyer and started the process of guardianship of my father,

Who did not fight me on it.

The morning he died,

We were planning to move him into an assisted facility,

An assisted living facility.

He did not want to go.

My family and I knew his death by suicide was likely.

He had tried twice before in less than three years,

And his psychologist had warned us that the third time is usually the charm.

He had just been released from an inpatient psychiatric hospital and was actively talking about wanting to die.

I felt like I was in a race to save a man's life.

The irony is that my dad would have done anything to take away even the smallest hint of pain I ever had,

And his death has caused me the worst suffering in my life.

But no one can do the worrying or the grieving for me.

Despite my father's best intentions,

He couldn't either.

I would take him back in a second,

But I had become stronger,

More independent,

And more savvy.

I've become an advocate for suicide prevention,

Joined the board of an organization that aims to prevent medication-induced suicide,

And I'm looking to focus my private practice in nutrition on brain wellness.

The fierce love my dad showed me throughout my life bolsters me on a regular basis.

As I make decisions,

Get my car tuned up,

Make career moves,

Even choose who to date,

I hear his voice in my head.

I value his opinion,

But we still have the parent-child conflict.

Sometimes I listen,

Sometimes I don't.

I'm becoming more and more my own person.

Six months after my dad died,

I had a dream in which he told me he was in Finley Park.

I searched everywhere he and I had ever lived to see if there was a Finley Park in those cities and towns.

I couldn't find anything.

A few months later,

I was looking to foster a dog,

And as I scrolled through an email with several dogs in need of homes,

One named Finley caught my attention.

I have since adopted her,

And she adds so much joy,

Laughter,

And love into my life.

I'd like to think my dad,

In a way,

Sent her to me to ease my burdens a little.

Her middle name is Louisa,

After my dad,

Louis,

And I think he'd agree that when it comes to dogs,

No one is as cute as she is.

I absolutely love that story,

And I love that it came to you just all in one piece.

I love your perspective on this because it seems like you've had a chance to step out a little bit and see from the outside how this has really shaped and transformed your life.

Where I want to go with this,

I think,

Is to talk a little bit more about things that might have been in your head either leading up to or immediately after his suicide because I don't think it's something that a lot of people are familiar with.

I think they're familiar with these drug commercials where side effects may include suicidal tendencies and all of that.

But what was the struggle of dealing with mental health versus medication versus like,

Was there a quest to find the right cocktail?

Was it not even an option?

And then,

I guess,

In the aftermath,

Did you or your family somehow feel responsible for not being able to do more medically?

Because it sounds like you guys took a lot of steps to try and prevent this.

The line in your story felt like I was racing to save a dying man.

It just hit me so hard.

Yeah,

I mean it was a complicated situation because my mom actually and dad separated and then divorced not long before he died,

Like in the last couple of years before he died.

So before that,

She was the primary caretaker and was trying all these alternatives.

My mom and I were a little bit more inclined to do alternative types of treatment and my dad kind of geared a little more toward Western medicine.

So he wasn't as open to some of those things and so we didn't really have much of a choice in terms of the medications and like you said,

The cocktails.

So that was kind of what he chose,

The route he chose to go.

So that's really what ultimately led to the akathisia because medications are really the only thing that causes it.

It's not a natural condition.

So it's a side effect of SSRI,

Psychotropic medications,

But we've actually learned since that it can be other medications too,

Like Chantix and even some steroids and things like that.

So everyone just reacts a little bit differently and some people,

I don't know if it's like based on genetics or exactly what the mechanism is,

But if they're just really sensitive to some of these medications.

And so my dad had reactions to certain things and then he would kind of come out of it and be okay for a little while and he would kind of experience the akathisia again.

But the akathisia was awful to watch.

I mean it was like he literally could not stop moving.

He would just pace around the house.

He would rub his hands up and down his legs.

He would,

Like I said,

Try to get out of moving cars and that wasn't,

At that point it wasn't to kill himself.

It was just because he was so anxious.

He didn't know what to do with himself.

He was like so fidgety and so that was really awful to watch.

And then he would say things like,

I feel like I'm being tortured like a dog.

I think he felt like there were feelings on his skin,

Like almost like bugs crawling on him.

I mean it was awful.

And I think with suicide,

People often saying,

Just talking to other people who've experienced suicide loss,

What could I have done?

What could we have done?

There's so much guilt associated with it and I know there is with different types of death too.

But I think maybe even more so with suicide because you feel like you should have been able to stop it and prevent it.

And the thing with my dad versus some other people who take their lives is we knew it was coming.

It didn't come out of nowhere.

A lot of people didn't even know that their loved one was going to kill themselves.

But we knew that it was a very likely thing because he had tried before and he was kind of talking about it.

And he just kept saying,

I can't live like this.

So that's why I kind of said I was on a race to save his life because I knew it was sort of imminent.

And so at that point,

My mom was no longer living with my dad and she was still very helpful and really cared about him and was helping me through this whole process.

But I was pretty much doing a lot of this alone.

Like I have a brother but we actually have different dads.

So he had hired caregivers and I had taken off of work.

He was living in Florida.

I live in Chicago.

And so I took off work and I was there for several weeks just trying to really get him help.

And we found a new more kind of integrative psychiatrist who was great and said it was the worst case of akathisia he had ever seen.

And basically without explicitly saying so,

Kind of indicated that he felt like it was too far gone really.

But he definitely tried what he could.

And yeah,

I was just doing everything I could.

I was taking my dad to different doctor's appointments and neurofeedback and just trying everything.

But it was still just he,

You know,

The akathisia never really let up.

So it was hard to watch.

What did it feel like becoming a primary caregiver for him?

Because it sounds like from the story that you're told,

He was always in such a giving place for you.

And a lot of times when children start to take care of their parents,

There's this role reversal but there's a lot of other feelings and emotions kind of swirled up within that.

Yeah,

I mean it feels,

Especially at his age,

He was only 63 when he died and I was 35.

So it felt like I had seen my mom go through it with her parents.

Like my grandma had dementia.

But my mom at that time was in her 50s.

My grandma was older.

So it felt like I was too young to be doing this.

And my dad was too young to be going through this.

So it was definitely overwhelming.

Like I felt like I really had to kind of grow up in a sense even though,

You know,

I am a grown up.

I live on my own.

I can't remember myself.

But you know,

It's a whole different level of like,

Oh my God,

I have to make these major decisions and like call caregivers and take him to doctor's appointments.

Yeah,

I really had never been in that position before.

And yeah,

It did feel like a role reversal because like you said,

He kind of was also overprotective.

Like even when I was in my 30s,

You know,

He would like to,

I think he liked that I called him for advice or,

You know,

He liked to be kind of a caretaker and treat me to little things like dinner,

You know.

And so I think it was this really weird situation like to become,

Going through the process of becoming a guardian of him felt like,

Oh my gosh.

And he,

I was actually really surprised that he didn't fight me on it because,

You know,

He was,

When he wasn't,

You know,

Kind of in the throes of either akathisia or his depression or anxiety was like,

You know,

Kind of this tough like dynamic personality.

So it was just weird to see him,

You know,

Like he kind of progressed into back into it like a child,

You know.

So,

Yeah,

Like just really needy and yeah,

Kind of like confused as well.

And so,

Yeah,

It was definitely a weird experience and,

But I just had to do it.

Like I was like,

Okay,

Like this is the situation I'm in,

I'm trying to save his life,

You know,

Like literally.

So I was just like doing research and,

You know,

My family was very supportive.

They just weren't physically there.

I was,

You know,

Trying to make these decisions with them.

You know,

My dad has two siblings,

My aunt and uncle,

So they were really supportive as well.

And yeah,

I'll try to be there for each other,

But it was definitely really overwhelming.

I hear you on that.

I hear you on that for sure.

And I know you touched on the fact that the suicide is different than other suicides because it was expected and this is going to come very poorly phrased,

But did that make it easier for you and your family when it finally happened?

You know what?

I actually think in a way it did.

I would say yes and no.

So,

You know,

When it happens you're still shocked.

I mean,

I'm still shocked almost two and a half years later.

Like I still have said many times in the last few weeks to friends and family,

Like I still just can't wrap my head around it.

Like I don't get how my dad is not here on this earth anymore.

So it's,

I think it's always a shock no matter,

You know,

Even if you're sort of expecting it.

But at the same time,

You know,

I'm not sure that I would say the fact that we sort of thought it might happen made it easier,

But the fact that he'd attempted suicide before,

This was his third attempt.

And so we,

Like my mom,

My aunt,

And my uncle are all kind of at peace with it in a sense.

And even though none of us wanted this and we all find it really difficult,

We,

You know,

Are pretty clear that this is what he wanted.

He was suffering so much that he had,

You know,

Tried several times and this is like the path that,

You know,

Kind of he needed to take in a sort of like spiritual,

From a spiritual place.

But I don't know that it,

I mean,

Yeah,

It's a hard question,

You know,

I don't know that it makes it easier necessarily,

But in a way it kind of does.

I think if it had come out of completely nowhere and we had no clue it was coming,

I do think it would be harder to find some peace with it.

Because I think then you're even more like,

Well,

What could I have done?

How could I not have seen this?

You know,

Like the fact that we knew and we were like,

I feel like we really tried everything we could and the fact that it happened from like this existential place,

Okay.

You know,

Like we finally had to just let him do this in a way,

Even though we don't,

You know,

Let him,

But you know what I mean?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was kind of a,

The word release is popping up into my head here.

Almost like a,

You're free to go now and not,

And it hurts and it sucks and nobody really wants this,

But I'm hearing some kind of like a sense of relief maybe.

Yeah,

I mean,

My mom.

Or just like a visible end to whatever he was going through.

Yeah.

I mean,

Even my,

You know,

Today's his birthday,

He would have been 66 and you know,

So my mom texted me and you know,

She said,

You know,

I'm thinking of him so much today and just knowing that he's at peace.

And she said that many times,

Like,

I just know now he's at peace.

And you know,

I know that's a lot of people say that when someone dies and I think because he was like suffering so much,

Like felt so tortured and you know,

We do kind of say that to each other.

Although I think it's easier for my mom to feel that way.

Like I'm like,

Yeah,

I know,

But what up?

You know,

I have a little more like,

But what if we could have done this,

You know?

So everyone within the family still,

I think,

Reacts a little bit differently.

But overall,

I've let go a lot of the guilt.

It still comes up a little bit.

But I've released a lot of it.

I want to know a little bit more about the immediate aftermath.

What was life like for you then?

Not just in terms of logistics,

Like did you move and planning a ceremony and things like that.

But what place emotionally and mentally,

Like where was your heart at the time?

Well,

It's really interesting because immediately,

Like right when we found out,

I didn't even cry.

Like the caregiver was there.

So he had slipped out basically while the caregiver was there and like into the garage,

Taken the car and drove to a bridge.

And the caregiver was,

I think she was like in the kitchen,

Like cutting up an apple or something.

So she didn't even see him.

And I was sleeping.

It was early morning.

And so we were like,

We knew.

So we got,

I got a phone call from one of his good friends who told me,

Because my dad had called him and told him he was driving to the bridge in Sarasota,

The Ringling Bridge.

And I was so confused.

I was like,

What do you mean?

Like he's in his bedroom.

And that's why I'm like getting out of bed,

Like looking around and then he's not in his room.

And I go into the garage and,

You know,

I saw one of his cars was gone.

And so then,

You know,

Kind of hit me and then we were waiting.

Like we didn't know what was,

We didn't know what the outcome was going to be.

So that was really crazy.

And when we found out,

My aunt had come over.

And when we found out,

Yeah,

I didn't even,

It didn't hit me right away,

You know.

And I was like comforting the caregiver because she like fell to the ground because I think she was like,

Oh my God,

Felt so,

Must have felt guilty and shocked,

You know.

And then my mom got there later and then,

You know,

Then it kind of hit me.

But I think the first day was,

It was a little bit,

I mean,

You know,

The first probably few weeks but especially the first day was kind of surreal.

Like I don't feel like I was crying as much then almost as I was later.

And then the next few weeks were just so hectic because I knew I had to do all this stuff before I came back to Chicago.

Like we literally had to put his house on the market.

We had to like clean out his entire house,

Put his house on the market,

You know,

Plan the memorial.

So we were like going through his things like immediately.

And my family came,

You know,

My cousin and my brother and my uncle was there and aunt.

So we were like going through his things right away kind of like,

Hey,

Do you want this?

Like,

You know,

So it was just,

It was a lot.

Like and they were kind of,

You know,

My family was kind of like,

I know this must be hard for you.

Like tell us if you don't want us to,

You know,

And I wanted them to have things of his but it was just like,

Oh my God,

Like there was no time to even think.

It sounds like an expedited process.

Yeah.

And I do remember one moment that still kind of bothers me because like I just was like wanted to lie in my dad's bed and just like kind of feel close to him.

And I remember one moment where my cousin and his wife and my boyfriend at the time were going,

They wanted to go out for a little bit and I didn't want to go.

And my mom and my aunt were like,

You should really get out for a little,

Like it will be good for you.

And so I ended up going and it was fine but I really felt like in that moment like I should not.

I just wanted to like stay home and like I knew we were getting rid of like his bed soon and like all these things and then I wouldn't even have like these pieces of him to be close to.

And I just felt like I didn't want to go anywhere.

I just wanted to be home near his stuff and it just felt like too soon for me to like be going out and like taking pictures and smiling,

You know.

Yes,

Absolutely.

And so I said something to my mom later,

I'm like,

You know,

You guys pushed me to go out and I didn't want to.

I mean it was just this one moment,

It wasn't like this ongoing thing where they were pushing me to do things.

But I just remember that clearly as an example of like you need to listen to what you need at the time.

You know,

And not really do things to appease other people.

Right,

And it's so hard in the aftermath of a loss to really tune into what you're wanting in the moment because A,

Other people have expectations of you and you should go out and it will make you feel better.

And then B,

We experience big losses like that so infrequently that it's almost default to follow other people's template or like society's template for what to do.

We don't really have that 100% trust in our gut and think when things like this happen.

And so our instincts are like,

Is this the right thing to do?

Yes,

And so it's so much easier to say I guess it would be good for me because everybody else is saying it's good for me and I've never experienced this before.

So maybe it is,

Maybe it's something I don't.

Yes,

I was thinking about it recently.

I'm like,

You know,

It's almost like after,

You know,

A breakup or something like that where you are kind of wallowing for a while.

And I don't know if that's the right term because I don't know if that sounds like minimizing it wallowing,

You know,

But I feel like you kind of need to do that for a while.

Just like be really,

Really sad before you can at some point start to put one foot in front of the other again,

You know,

Like it's okay to feel awful and like not want to move.

I mean there were times,

So when I got back to Chicago after,

You know,

All of that,

I mean there were times when I would just sit on like my bed and stare at my boyfriend and be like,

I was just staring at him like not saying anything and just be like in this other world,

Like I don't even know what to do right now.

And he would,

I think he was just like,

I don't know what to do for you,

You know,

And I was like,

I don't know either,

You know,

Like I mean just these moments.

And it really does,

I think,

Come in,

For me it came in waves,

Like I read about so much where I kind of be okay for a while and then something would happen where,

You know,

I'd hear a song or just even I would just start thinking about my dad or something and,

You know,

It would just totally hit me.

Wait,

Sorry my dog.

Yeah.

Hold on,

Finley,

Come here.

Oh my gosh,

It's Finley.

I just love that she was in the story and now she's here and we can all hear her.

I know.

She's so sweet.

I know that dream was so vivid.

It was really so crazy.

I want to know,

And the barking's fine.

Hi Finley.

I'm interested in this space of like the aftermath of death and kind of piecing your life back together.

What was it that caused you to really come back to life again?

Was it a resource or a class or a book or a person who said something and you're like,

Oh my gosh,

I can step back into,

I don't want to call it the real world,

But like a fully conscious life.

Like when,

What pulled you kind of out of the numbness of that?

You know,

It was,

I was thinking about this recently because I,

As an integrative dietitian,

Like I look at things holistically and kind of a person as a whole and all the pieces fitting together,

Not just like here's your heart and here's your liver,

Like everything's connected.

And I think that's sort of how I approached my grieving process,

Not intentionally,

But just because it's what felt natural to me.

So in other words,

I kind of jumped into a lot of things at once because I like to research and kind of figure things out.

Like literally the first,

I think the day he died or the day after I was already researching more about akathisia because we knew what it was,

But we didn't really understand like the full extent of it really.

And so I don't know,

I just,

I wanted to find out if there were any resources or organizations and I came across MIST,

The Medication Induced Suicide Prevention and Education Foundation in memory of Stewart Dolan,

Which is,

I know,

A mouthful.

And they were based in Chicago and I was like,

Oh my gosh,

I have to get in touch with them.

And so basically they are an organization that raises awareness about akathisia,

Like that's their simple mission is that we just want to educate people about what akathisia is.

And so sometimes if you start,

Stop or change a medication and notice any increased agitation,

Restlessness,

Really ramped up anxiety that we need to call attention to this person's doctor.

So we want people,

Family members to know about this,

Social workers,

Like people who are kind of watching out for this person who might be getting treatment.

So now I'm on the board of this organization.

I mean,

I got in touch with them right away and I ended up meeting them,

Like the director and the founder for dinner and just shared my story.

And I just wanted to channel my energy in that direction of getting the word out of,

You know,

How can I spread this?

Were they surprised to hear from you so soon after your loss?

Yeah,

It's so interesting because I've met so many people who are like,

Wow,

I couldn't have done certain things so soon after my loss.

And I think everyone is on their own timetable.

For me,

It just felt really like I needed to do this.

It was just really helpful for me.

And I remember at one point my aunt was like,

You know,

Maybe it's too much suicide stuff because I had also gotten involved with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.

And I had gone,

I started to go to,

Like three months after my dad died,

I went to,

They have like a conference every year and one of the days of the conference is just for suicide survivors,

They call them,

Like loss survivors.

Not for,

Like the other days are for professionals,

Like social workers and things like that.

But one day is just for healing.

So I went to that like three months after my dad died and I just wanted to kind of do all these things.

And my aunt,

I remember at one point she was kind of concerned because I think I called her crying when I was missing my dad.

And she said,

Maybe it's just too much suicide stuff on your mind,

Like maybe you're talking about it too much and thinking about it too much.

And I knew for me that that wasn't,

Didn't make it worse,

You know,

Like I was already thinking about it.

So to be around other people who kind of had had a similar experience or understood or I don't know,

It was just really helpful.

I also got involved in Catholic Charities has a loss,

They call it loss program here in Chicago,

Which is basically support groups for people who've lost someone to suicide.

They have,

For people who've lost someone I think within the first year,

It's like an eight-week support group where you're kind of going through it weekly with the same people.

And then after that they have,

Like I still go to drop-in meetings sometimes and that's open to anyone.

So I did that and then I did a more general grief support group.

I became an advocate for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention,

Which is kind of a little bit of public policy,

Like writing letters and making phone calls to Congress people.

And I went to the Springfield for one day and tried to get the message across.

And so I've just done these different things that again for me just felt really,

I think it helped me move forward.

I mean I read a lot of books,

I watch movies about suicide,

Like documentaries,

Any documentary that was related to suicide,

Like trying to understand and just,

I don't know,

I just found it comforting to,

I guess try to understand or hear other people's stories.

I love that because that's very similar to my story where the instant I lost my mom,

I was like,

I have to research this and figure out what I'm going through because there have to be other people who have experienced this.

Was that ever like an innate instinct in you or did anybody ever tell you about the power of sharing stories in a community or did this just happen and that was your first thought or your gut instinct?

Like were you raised in a family that told stories to really pain?

Where did that urge come from?

I mean that's a good question.

No,

I wouldn't say I was necessarily,

I mean stories in a certain sense,

Actually my dad told a lot of stories,

Like the same stories for years.

My mom was like,

Okay,

I heard this one 20,

000 times,

You know,

Like,

But not necessarily for this purpose,

Right?

Like for healing,

It was more just like,

This is a funny story,

Make people laugh,

You know.

But I think the support group thing,

No,

I don't know.

I just,

I think I just thought like,

Oh,

This is what people do.

They go to support groups and,

You know,

Of course I've heard of people going to support groups and finding it useful and it's just like a place,

It's just sort of this carving out this space that you can cry.

Like I can tell the same,

You know,

I'll go to support group meeting and talk to a friend maybe about something and like when I'm in the support group,

Like I know I might end up crying because I'm just like in this space where it's like everyone else gets it.

I don't know,

It's really interesting.

Like it's not like I try not to cry,

You know,

With a friend or,

You know,

Then I know I can cry in the support group but it sometimes just happens,

Like being in that environment just allows you to release a little bit more.

So I'm not sure,

I don't know that anyone necessarily told me I should do that.

I think it was just one of those things that I was like,

Okay,

This is one avenue to go.

That's like helpful,

You know,

Because I was just kind of looking for things that would be helpful,

You know,

That was just like one piece of it.

I also was doing a lot of like yoga because I felt like being in this sort of dark room,

Like in a little corner,

Like in my own world on my mat was just helpful too,

To just be like kind of,

I don't know,

Like contained sort of.

Getting a picture of like a sanctuary.

Yeah.

Like a home base for you.

And then of course like you talk about a lot of like rituals.

So like,

You know,

Like the first,

His first birthday that passed a few months later after he died,

Like my boyfriend at the time and I,

We got a frappuccino in my dad's honor because he loved frappuccinos from Starbucks.

So we like got a frappuccino and just little things like that.

I love that.

Yeah.

But yeah,

So I mean that kind of thing,

Or like I,

You know,

Dropped some things into the,

Into Lake Michigan at one point,

Just like my own little ritual for him,

Like that,

You know,

Things that meant something to me and like about grief and about my dad.

And for his,

So we had a memorial service,

You know,

Like I don't know what was it,

Like a week after he died,

Something like that.

And then I went to,

That was in February and then in June actually over,

It happened to be over Father's Day weekend.

So a few months later I went back to Sarasota because we did something called,

It was like an eternal reef,

A reef ball,

R-E-E-F.

So basically it's like an eco-friendly option for people.

So he was cremated and then his ashes were put into this reef ball that become like a living reef for fish,

You know,

Like coral.

Oh cool.

I have never heard of that.

It was amazing because we,

First of all,

You can decorate the reef with things,

Anything you want.

So we,

You know,

Like his friends and some family gathered and we put things into it because it's kind of like a,

Like a clay ceramic thing.

So we could put things into it that he loved and cared about.

Like,

You know,

I said he was kind of really into gadgets.

So we put like,

You know,

His iPhone and his stylus and just little mementos and tokens of things.

Like we wanted,

You know,

Everyone put different things in there.

Like I think we put a Dunkin Donuts card in there that he,

You know,

He loves little things.

And like his eyeglass case,

Like he has more glasses,

More of those like cheap like reading glasses we found after he died.

Like he had like 30 pairs.

We're like,

Oh my God,

Who needs this many?

So like we put one of those in there.

Anyway,

So,

And then we went out on a boat and like had this beautiful ceremony where they lower it into the water and like say their name.

I mean,

It was incredible.

Like all of,

You know,

A bunch of his friends and some family went and it was just like really touching and beautiful.

And then we have the coordinates of where he is in Sarasota Bay so we can go out like anytime and see.

Oh,

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

So that was like really special and healing and felt really,

You know,

Like this beautiful kind of like memorial and like token of,

You know,

Our love to him and kind of like this ritual that was really fitting for him because he was a boater and,

You know,

Love going out on the water with his friends.

And so that was,

It was like I knew exactly like we're doing this,

You know,

Like there was no question of how we were going to bury him or memorialize him.

So all of those things together,

Just like,

You know,

The reading,

The support group,

Getting involved in different things,

You know,

Journaling,

Yoga,

You know,

It all just helps.

And talking about it,

Like I really,

I have such great friends and family and I,

You know,

I think a lot of people with suicide feel like they can't talk about it and it's stigmatized.

I don't know if that's more of a generational thing but I didn't,

I never felt like that.

Like people were really open to talking about it and supportive so that really helped too,

You know.

Like,

You know,

The other thing is,

You know,

I think something that helps with grief a lot is,

And I've read this too,

Is just talking about it.

Like trying to answer all these questions,

Especially maybe with suicide because there's so many more questions a lot of times I think than with other types of deaths.

Like why did this really happen?

Even though you might have a sense of why it happened,

You still don't fully understand.

Like why did they decide to do this,

You know?

And so you have to ask these questions over and over until,

I've read this,

Like over and over until you don't need to know anymore or until it's sort of resolved in your mind.

And so like my mom and I have had the same conversations so many times,

Like trying to sort of psychoanalyze my dad.

And like,

You know,

We can keep doing it for,

I mean we've done it recently,

Like years,

You know,

A couple years later and it's,

That helps too.

Like just talking about it and trying to understand from every angle and,

You know,

Like what was his childhood like that might have led to some of these,

You know,

Issues later in his life and really,

You know,

He retired really young.

Like maybe that contributed to it and,

You know,

Like all these things that we were trying to figure out,

I think being able to talk about it without someone being like,

Hey,

I think you've talked about it enough,

You know,

Like just giving you the space to be able to go over and over the same things until you kind of don't need to anymore.

So we don't need to as much anymore,

I'll say that.

It's a gift,

That empathic listening of listening without judgment,

Listening without analyzing or criticizing or fixing,

Yeah.

Yeah,

And the thing is I'm surrounded by therapists,

Like my brother is a American family therapist,

My best friend is a psychologist,

So,

You know,

That also helps to get some free therapy.

That's also a gift,

Absolutely.

And then I want to know how the person you are today,

You said almost about two and a half years later,

Is different from the person that you were before your dad's loss and this can pertain to anything,

Not even just your relationship with him,

Which of course has changed,

But every aspect of your life.

How do you,

How has your perspective changed since this experience?

I mean,

It's so interesting because I was just saying to my mom recently,

I'm like,

I don't know,

Like a lot of people feel like they're like this different person after this huge loss and I'm like,

I don't know if I'm a different person and so,

You know,

I mean,

I'm sure in some ways I am because how can you not be,

But I still,

You know,

I don't know that I can put it into words necessarily,

Except to say,

Of course,

I do think,

You know,

I've learned to be pretty resilient and stronger than I realized I could be.

Because I think before my dad died,

I used to think about like,

Oh,

One day my parents are going to die and like,

How am I going to survive that?

Like,

I don't think I can live without my parents.

Like,

How am I supposed to do that?

And,

You know,

And now I'm like,

Okay,

Well,

I guess I can,

You know,

Although there's moments,

Like I can remember one moment clearly,

Probably within the first year of his dying that I,

Like,

I got really panicked and thinking like,

I don't know how I'm supposed to live,

Like,

Without,

You know,

Without him on this earth,

You know,

Like it just felt so foreign and like lonely because your parents are like the most familiar people in the world to you,

You know,

Like they've been there since before day one,

You know,

And it's like,

My dad's voice is like one of the most familiar voices to me in the world and how am I supposed to do this?

But,

You know,

Then you just,

Yeah,

You just kind of take it day by day,

Put one foot in front of the other and have a new reality and there's always a huge void.

Like,

It's just a huge void in my life,

But,

You know,

I do feel,

I still feel like pretty happy every day,

Even though I still miss him a lot and sometimes it's way harder than others.

So,

Yeah,

I mean,

I think I've just had to take on a lot more,

Like,

You know,

From figuring out all this stuff with,

You know,

His guardianship and caregivers and,

You know,

Kind of growing up in that way and then,

You know,

Putting his house on the market and selling it and all of that.

And now,

I mean,

He was the person I would go to for like those kinds of questions and I don't have him to go to anymore and I mean,

I have other people like my own,

His brother,

My uncle is kind of my surrogate dad now and my mom is really helping,

You know,

So I have people,

But I'm also like,

Okay,

I'm 37.

I can make some decisions on my own.

I don't need,

You know,

To ask people for so much advice.

So,

I think,

Yeah,

I mean,

Growing up,

Becoming a little more independent are definitely two big things.

And then,

I think also just comforting yourself,

Like,

Yes,

I have great friends and family and I can always turn to them,

But I,

You know,

I don't actually love crying in front of people.

I don't know.

Believe it or not,

Most people don't.

I was just going to say,

Like,

I don't know who does,

But like I just,

A lot of times,

It's funny because I really like to talk about a lot of my feelings and things and,

But a lot of times,

Like when I've been kind of in a sad place,

I just would rather be alone.

So that's kind of a little bit of a shift that I've noticed.

The other thing is I feel like I was really private before about my family and like any issues going on,

Like,

Like with my dad before he died and now afterwards,

I've kind of been like,

You know what,

Like,

I want to share his story and talk about suicide and not kind of hide it or protect him or like,

Because I feel like actually talking about it is a tribute to him and can help other people.

So.

I love that.