Spoiler Alert! You're Going To Die With Tammy Faulds

Grief growers,

I'm so excited to introduce you to Tammy Faulds,

Whose website literally says,

Spoiler alert,

You're going to die.

And so much of her work is talking about how thinking about death can inform our lives.

So Tammy,

Welcome to the show and please share your lost story with us.

Oh my gosh,

How long we got?

Basically,

Mine started at the age of six when I was diagnosed with cancer and went through chemo radiation in the hospital for a year.

So that was the first big significant loss,

Even though I was probably too young to really comprehend what was going on.

And yeah,

Through the years,

You know,

Everything from,

I mean,

There's over 40 types of loss,

Right?

So everything from moving,

Going to university,

To traveling the world,

Leaving home for that,

Death of my beloved dog.

Yeah,

Through to working with seniors.

I used to work at home care for seniors and sat bedside a few times in their final stages,

Sitting bedside with my beloved grandmother when she transitioned.

Friends,

When I was in Australia traveling,

A friend of mine was killed in a car accident.

And that was the first time I had someone in my age range that had a tragic death,

As well as another friend who completed suicide through to,

Yeah,

I mean all the,

Just all the ways that loss shows up in our life.

But those are kind of the major,

Major ones,

I would say.

It's kind of a lot altogether.

And the first thing that's coming to me that we've never talked about on the show before is this concept of being an old soul.

And I find sometimes,

Especially working with clients that children who have illnesses at a really early age or somehow experience a death or a loss in the family at an early age,

They like no mortality differently than other kids or even some other adults who have never had a huge loss like this.

So I wonder if you identify with this term old soul slash how did that evolve,

If at all,

Into this,

I'm always aware that I could die.

And that informs the entirety of the rest of my life.

Yeah,

No,

Precisely.

And it wasn't obviously it's something you think about later in life,

Not when you're eight years old.

But definitely it has informed that especially because of my annual oncology appointments,

Right?

So walking the hallways and seeing the people in various stages.

And here in Toronto,

We have cancer specific hospital.

So just seeing that and knowing that people are on these different parts of their journey,

You know,

Much like grief and kind of remembering,

You know,

How things were like,

I still remember vividly things that happened during that time.

And probably it was heightened because of,

You know,

That state I was in,

It wasn't like a normal kid learning math and spelling.

I was learning about,

You know,

All these different types of way to take better care of myself and,

And just navigating the hospital system.

And that sort of thing.

And then yeah,

Definitely having that inform it wasn't until because when I started coaching,

I was doing your life coaching,

And then I layered on yoga,

And so that became more holistic mind body spirit,

And layering on Brené Brown stuff on top of that.

And then that was all great.

But I kept getting this knock about death,

And how this fear of death really holds people back because I'm not going to start a new business or leave my marriage or whatever it is that you're seeking.

And then you're like,

What are your souls calling you to do because you're like,

Well,

If I do that,

You know,

If I start the business,

It'll fail,

And I'll end up living under the bridge and be eaten by wolves.

That's kind of where our head goes.

And realizing like,

And I can talk more about that later.

But yeah,

This this death thing has always been a string throughout my life.

So whether it was,

You know,

The cancer thing,

Or even just always being drawn to working with seniors and hearing all but their stories of death and loss,

And they actually were the ones who were the ones who were the ones who were the ones who really helped me to travel.

Because I was 26 years old working and physiotherapy at the time and in home care for seniors and just asking them,

You know,

I think the greatest classroom is just at the foot of a senior citizen who has,

I mean,

Especially at my age,

You know,

Like about then it was like they lived through the depression.

And I'm just like,

How do you how do you navigate life?

And what do you have looking back like that you would tell me as this 26 year old,

Bright eyed,

Bushy tailed,

And all of them 100% do it now.

See the world while you can,

You know,

Because if you wait,

You'll wait till I'm retired and I have money,

They're like,

It's never gonna come,

You know,

Or just be such I mean,

Not saying never,

But Mars will do it now.

So I literally heeded their advice,

Quit and went off to Australia for a year,

Like literally the other side of the globe.

But they it was kind of talking to them about death and their deathbed regrets that,

Yeah,

Spurred me into actions.

So seeing that and then again,

As I was coaching all this stuff kind of just kept knocking on my conscience.

As I look back,

I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

And my mom even worked in a nursing home her whole career.

So I'd always been in and out of there.

So I just Yeah,

I was like,

Oh,

Well,

2020 vision is all right.

I've always been and I've always kind of seen more depth as a teacher,

You know,

Then this fearsome grim reaper that comes in the night and steals people from you.

I really do see it more as like,

Oh,

It's even in my work,

I try to feminize grief and see her as more as the,

You know,

The coffee cup holding,

Maybe she's in some flowy gowns,

And she just wants to,

You know,

Sit and have a chat.

And she's not Yeah,

This thing to be feared.

She's actually a great teacher,

But we're just so scared of her because all the narratives we've been taught.

Yeah,

We don't want to sit and talk about it.

I literally have so many questions.

Based off of that.

Okay.

The first thing I have to tell you is I when you're talking about your mom working in a nursing home,

And then sitting at the feet of seniors,

And then having this experience as a kid,

I kind of see you as like this nucleus of grief,

Death,

Loss conversation,

Where all of these pieces of information are literally like,

Like planets orbiting around you.

And you're like,

I have all of these things to pull from.

And you kept saying,

There's the knock at the door,

The knock at the door of death is involved here death is a part of this.

Um,

The first thing I want to touch on is fear of death holds people back is what I wrote down for you.

But you talk about people being afraid to start businesses,

People being afraid to leave marriages,

And that,

Oh,

I'm getting chills as I say this,

But I think a lot of people make a connection between failing at something and dying as if death is the ultimate failure in our lives.

And so I'm wondering if you can speak to that connection at all,

Because,

You know,

If you start a business,

And it goes south,

Like you're not going to physically die,

But to be under a bridge to,

You know,

To be out of money to declare bankruptcy,

Like all these things are quote unquote,

Failures.

And I think to fail is to die in a way.

But then if you flip it,

To dies to also fail,

According to this Western narrative box that we live in,

I know people can't see me,

I'm drawing a box with my finger.

So I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit,

Or if you've seen that?

Yeah,

Well,

I'm usually what I'll say to that is,

Well,

Especially for you and I being in the northern hemisphere,

Like look at your window right now,

It's winter,

Which is kind of a death of the seasons,

You know,

And we need this time,

It's not a failure,

We need winter to give birth to spring,

We take an in breath,

And then we release it and that sort of a death,

You know,

Like you can have death is everywhere.

For just so again,

In that narrative of it's this thing that comes in,

Steals things from me that I am not ready to let go of.

And failure definitely comes into that because again,

Of that narrative,

Whereas I only see a failure if you don't learn from it.

And that's why I always think like,

And again,

With this integration of light and dark,

It's,

You know,

It's sunny right now outside,

But it's going to get dark later,

Which can also be seen as a death and you need that darkness in order to see the stars like we need.

It's this beautiful balance of the two that we need,

But we're so focused on I mean,

Look in your magazines and on TV,

And you know,

Anti aging and,

You know,

Live,

You know,

Live as long as you can and fight it all to the end and resist,

Resist,

Resist,

You know,

Was it that dying against the dying or rage against the dying of the light?

Yes,

I remember that poem.

Yeah.

And I'm more of again,

Let's feminize that a bit,

Because right,

Because the rage is very,

You know,

Like a masculine,

Moving,

Powerful sense sort of thing.

What about if it was more of like a new sort of approach of,

Well,

What if we acknowledged and accepted that it's a part of life,

And not a failure,

Which actually,

If you look at our Western medical system,

Right,

Like I know doctors take on a lot of that,

Like I failed you,

If you die,

Or even in Canada,

Here,

A big conversation right now is medical assistance and dying.

Yes.

And,

And a huge debate for people because well,

Who are we to bring that to someone that's really seen as more of a compassionate way to end,

But they're always taught right,

If you fight and you keep treating and you over,

You know,

Medicate and do all these things when well,

What if there is a bit of a softness there and an awareness acknowledgement,

And to help them because you know,

Like,

What's the opposite of unassisted or assisted dying is just unassisted dying,

Right?

So,

Correct.

You know,

It's not living longer,

Like,

It's just,

Yeah,

Well,

We can help you with this,

This transition and that for me,

It's just that acceptance,

You know,

Kind of that acceptance that light and dark both exist.

And again,

It's how you how you and that's why your words are so powerful.

So like your word is your wand,

Right?

So if you want to believe that failure is bad,

Then you're going to be terrified of it.

But if you see it as a part of life,

And even Sarah Blakely,

The owner of Spanx,

To take a little bit of a right turn,

She always said,

At her dinner table,

It wasn't like,

Oh,

What's the highlight of your day?

Her dad would ask,

Well,

How did you fail today?

Because you should every day,

You should be trying something new.

And that's not always going to work.

It's always an experiment.

I love that little mind shift.

Oh,

I love that because it incorporates failure.

Or just acknowledges failure as a necessity as like kind of woven into the loom already.

And so inseparable from the picture of the whole,

There's a really I'm want to immediately transition into grief and the divine feminine,

Because there's this painting that I'm thinking of right now.

And I don't recall what century it's from.

But it's a woman in the physical world with a cradling a baby in her arms.

And it's the title of the painting is called something called like being visited by death or the kiss of death or something like that.

And it portrays death as this other woman,

Not the one holding the baby,

Standing over this woman's child and kissing the forehead of the baby.

And she has she's dressed all in white,

These beautiful flowing clothes,

And has like,

Like a weapon of some like a sickle or something like tucked behind her back,

And it's not menacing.

It's like I am blessing your child before I take it away.

And the implication I get chills talking about this,

But the implication is that a child is dying and death is coming to whisk it away.

But instead of this westernized grim reaper that's eight feet tall in the black robes and the scythe and I'm going to chop your head off and you have no choice.

You're my prisoner kind of that that sense.

It's something that feels enormously compassionate and like a total 180 of what we teach ourselves about what grief,

Death,

Loss,

Failure,

The end of a life is.

And every time I see it,

I'm like,

I'm so glad that exists.

Because while it might not be comforting to a lot of people listening right now,

I know a lot of people are like death is death,

And it was still the worst thing that ever happened to me.

I think how we choose to frame death in our minds is important for how we live.

So I literally just wrote like a Venus symbol,

Venus symbol grief.

Let's talk about the feminizing of grief,

Because I did a bit of this in my work,

Too.

But I come at it from,

Let's just make grief human as opposed to a monster,

A killer,

The ultimate destroyer,

Invincible power that comes in to crush us.

And I'm like,

What if we just made it human?

So not all the way to genderizing it,

But like I,

But I think there's something to be said for living in a patriarchal society that says you're either if you're not succeeding,

You're failing.

So if you're not living,

You're dying.

And that's bad,

Bad,

Good,

Very white categories,

Whereas a female centered world or matriarchies,

This very cyclical,

It feels more inclusive.

Yes,

Exactly.

And that's why I say this,

Look at your window.

It's the nature.

It's the cycles.

It's the seasons that are inherent in us,

You know,

Regardless of where you think they were made of stardust or whatever it is,

It's like,

Why would we want to fight against that?

You know,

And that's where I also love seeing and I speak to this when I sat at my grandmother's bedside,

And the liberation of love that was expressed in that second that all of us,

My brother,

My mom and I all knew the moment she died.

And this spiritual kind of like you're saying this,

This feminine sort of like energy that just lifted and knowing she was liberated and even my mother's instinctual because,

You know,

She kind of held on until till she knew we were all there and even you know,

Being morphing up and all that she opened her eyes,

Made eye contact with each of us.

And then my mother instinctively leaned over and was like,

I could be a here's your permission to go because so many of us hang on because we're just looking for that permission.

And literally,

She just closed her eyes and and that was just beautiful.

And I know,

Obviously not all deaths are like that.

But I thought,

Wow,

This is such a,

It can be a beautiful experience.

And that kind of got me curious about this thought of liberation,

Versus the ego kind of like,

I'm not ready for you to go.

And that's actually with again,

With this made conversation up here,

You know,

People's like,

Well,

I'm not ready.

But what if the patient is,

You know,

It's their lives,

Their bodies,

Which also gets into the obviously other body choices and laws around that.

But but what if again,

What if we saw it more as a liberation versus holding on,

Right,

But let go or be dragged sort of thing.

So for me,

Again,

That's just a feminine,

Which you can call,

You know,

Like the yin yang or the shack,

You know,

It's,

For me,

It's just that other side,

You're saying that 180 doesn't have to be genders.

But for me,

Just because I feel like the narrative that we have,

Or at least I grew up with,

Was that that masculine huge presence Grim Reaper,

Bad,

You know,

So what's the opposite for me about is,

Yeah,

This kind of liberation,

More loving,

Compassionate,

That's gonna happen.

That's why I have that,

Like on the header of my website,

Like spoiler alert,

100% of us stats are still true are gonna die.

So why?

Why are we so scared of it?

Which usually are even so intent on fighting it?

Yeah.

And that's why I say like,

If you look at and that's why I try to use death as a tool to begin at the end,

What might some deathbed regrets be of yours.

And this has actually been liberating for clients who have done this work where I love this story of a friend of mine who did it.

And she had a invitation to go to a wedding,

A good friend of hers wedding in South Africa.

And she's like,

Oh,

I really want to go I want to bring my son but of course,

And all the excuses,

Right?

It's gonna be like $5,

000 I've had the time to get away and all of that blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And I literally pulled up her intake form for the death coaching.

And that's one of the questions,

What might a deathbed regret be?

And hers,

Shelby verbatim was not taking my son to my favorite places in the world.

And South Africa has that and Brazil are like her two favorites.

So I read it back to her and you can just imagine she's like,

Ah,

Man,

You caught me.

So yeah,

It was great.

Because the next morning she emailed she's like,

I booked the plane tickets,

They had the whole trip paid off before they even left.

And as you can imagine,

It was the most beautiful trip her and her son had ever,

You know,

Ever taken.

So that's why I was like,

Isn't that cool to use that thinking about well,

Might this be a deathbed regret of mine,

Like using that death concept as a tool for how are you living your life?

So I think that's really what death asks you.

I think that's why we fear it so much.

Right?

It's like,

Oh,

Well,

I haven't done the thing.

I didn't go to,

You know,

Africa,

I didn't start with this.

I didn't write that book.

I didn't do this.

And that's why you have this,

You know,

Time crunch.

And then it's like,

Okay,

Well,

What if I told you you were gonna die in six months?

What would you change about how you're living now?

Yes,

Yes,

I have to well grief growers,

I have to confess to you that my first book permission to grieve as a result of using mortality as a motivator,

Because I,

I need a lot of reasons to get going with something.

And so or I have so many projects going on at once.

I'm like,

I don't know which one to finish.

And so they all kind of take priority simultaneously.

And I always try and play this mental game with myself.

And I really started playing it as I was writing this book,

Because I was like,

If I die tomorrow,

What am I going to replace?

Tomorrow?

What am I going to regret the most?

And it was the fact that this book was not out in the world.

And I kept going back to it and editing it and sending off to my editor and redesigning the cover and working with all the you know,

The people doing the ebook and the audio book and everything.

And I was like,

Just put the thing out into the world.

And what I did,

I was like,

Oh,

My God,

It's out there.

That's amazing.

It exists.

And now I don't have this.

I have other books inside of me that want to be written.

But there's not this deathbed regret of I never got to write a book that saw the light of day.

Because I did I wrote a book and it's all the light of day.

And it's imperfect.

And there's typos.

And it's out there in the world.

And some people don't like it.

And that's okay.

And,

And even just talking about it now.

I'm like,

That's not weighing on me anymore.

To do the thing I've always wanted to do.

And I wanted to say to I think death is scary to a lot of people,

Because if they consider their deaths more,

They would stop doing things.

I think a lot of people think about deathbed regrets.

And it's like,

Oh,

I want to go on this trip,

Or I want to write the book or I want to,

You know,

Have children or I want to,

You know,

Move through country or whatever it is,

But a lot of people are like,

I would quit my job,

I would stop talking to my mother in law,

I would,

You know,

Get my health stuff figured out,

Like they would stop ignoring things that they kind of dog made a mess in the living room,

It's the dogs looking away.

Yeah,

Perfectly well,

That like they're in trouble,

But like,

They're not going to admit that something needs looking at very much that energy of if I actually consider my death,

I have to acknowledge that I'm not happy with my life.

And that's often scarier than how do I save $5,

000 because that's more of like,

That's logistics,

We can figure that out.

But in terms of stopping doing things,

Either because we expect them of ourselves or other people expect them from us can be enormously hard.

And I imagine that's a lot of the work that you do.

Exactly.

And that's where I come in.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Because that's overwhelming.

You know,

And we don't know where to start.

And yeah,

So that's precisely why,

Again,

I just think about how to begin at the end,

You know,

So helping you think,

Again,

Just using death as a tool.

So for you to think about that sort of stuff,

Like how is a catalyst for you,

It actually helped propel me to the summit of Kilimanjaro.

I was so frickin tired.

And I remember because I was climbing it for the cancer hospital here who saved my life.

And I remember thinking,

Oh,

Yeah,

I'm climbing for those people that are in that hospital right now who would in a nanosecond trade with me.

Even though I was like,

So tired,

And going,

I can do it.

I can do it.

So as a motivator,

Literally up a mountain,

You know,

That way as well.

And so using I'm like,

That is such a cool energy.

Yeah,

To be as a catalyst for you doesn't have to be an overwhelm.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I think a lot of people perceive using death as a motivator as morbid.

I'm like,

No,

That's the thing that lights up the world.

And I think that's the thing that I find more than anything else is knowing one day I'm going to die.

I'm like,

Then I have a lot of stuff to do.

Kind of twofold question with that.

So where do we start if we're considering our deaths right now,

Grief growers are listening,

And they're like,

Holy crap,

I'm really not happy with my life,

Whether it's because I haven't done something or because I'm still doing something I really don't want to do.

And that's overwhelming.

And so I guess I'm asking,

How do we shift from overwhelm to actually moving to a place of change in the real world as well?

And then alongside that,

How do we?

I guess how do we prevent the the anxiety that death is coming from overtaking us?

And so there's like the overwhelm of I need to change my life.

And then there's the anxiety of death could be happening tomorrow as well.

And so there's like two different kinds of anxiety,

But they live next to next door to each other.

Yeah.

So for the first question,

I would say by taking action.

So exactly what you're saying,

Like even just thinking about it now.

And everyone's different,

Right?

So for me,

Journaling,

I love to journals,

I'd be like,

And actually,

Oh,

Actually,

That's one thing they can do is on my website,

Do death differently.

If you click on that in the services tab,

You can download the first module for free.

And in there is a bunch of coaching questions,

Journaling prompts,

And that sort of thing.

So actually,

That'd be a great action.

They could see how cool and I was built that course is all built on the chakra system.

So if you are a spiritual baby,

Like me,

Then you'll resonate with the root chakra and the sense of security and family and home and safety that we have in that that obviously gets really rattled with the thought of death.

And then the second question was,

Oh,

Anxiety.

For me,

It's Oh,

And again,

This is back to my my yogi self,

But it's breath work.

So whenever you can label it,

So even if that might be the first step for some people's living labeling that,

Okay,

Like,

What is it?

Is it anxiety?

Is it fear is,

You know,

What is coming up for me,

And always sensing in the body where that might be,

For some it's the stomach,

Maybe it really makes your stomach get tied up in knots,

Others,

It might be accelerated hurt.

Others feel like a dryness in their throat.

So wherever that might be coming up for you just acknowledge an awareness that it is happening.

I'm just breathing into it.

And I was just on the exhale,

Whatever it is you've labeled,

Just picture it coming out of your mouth,

And just dissipating like a fog in front of you.

And just keep rinsing and repeating that breath until you start to feel a little bit lighter.

And that's actually for me,

Like,

Again,

That awareness acknowledgement of death,

And maybe,

You know,

Coming up as anxiety,

But that's actually you taking those first steps into acknowledging and wearing and wearing.

It's a verb now.

And that awareness of it that will help you lean more into the acceptance and that integration of death in your life.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I love I love both of those.

And the next question I wanted to go into was about judgment and criticism.

Because especially for people in the aftermath of loss,

They've done the thinking they know how they want to change their lives,

They start putting these changes in place,

And then they start getting this pushback from family,

Friends,

Bosses,

Co-workers,

Church members,

Other spiritual leaders,

Children,

Just people in their lives who are not on board with the ways in which they're changing their lives.

And I wonder kind of how we can respond to things like that.

Because in my mind,

People freak out for two reasons.

One,

Because their picture of who you are is changing.

And so when I changed after the death of my mom,

And my friends would push back,

They're like,

This is not how we're used to seeing you.

And that's freaky.

Or it's,

I'm afraid to change my own life.

So I'm going to push back against you changing yours.

And so I wonder if you have tools,

Stories,

Anything alongside that,

Right?

Yeah.

And that's going to happen regardless of any change or the the motivation for changing your life,

Because people are going to get so used to seeing you,

You know,

I was always the people pleaser,

Let me put everything else that you need ahead of mine.

And as soon as I start saying things like,

Well,

No,

That doesn't work for me.

What,

What,

But you always helped me move.

And you know,

I'm like,

Yeah,

That's not so you're always going to have that even if death isn't involved,

Which I guess actually is a death of an old version of you,

Which is again necessary,

Right?

And you think about the cycles of life,

Like I joke about,

You know,

We don't wear these outfits that made us feel super hot in our teens,

Like we wouldn't wear that stuff.

Now,

You know,

Like,

We need to evolve and move forward.

And,

And to your point,

People that aren't evolving and changing as well,

Are going to push back against that.

So what I would suggest for your listeners is actually another thing they could download on my website,

That is the absolute cornerstone of everything I do in my coaching,

And it's your core values.

Because as long as you have the absolute clarity and conviction of your core values,

You can get pushed and shoved by anyone,

But you're gonna be able to stand firm in those because like,

This is what I know to be true for me.

So you know,

Like that,

Whatever I like,

I want to mine is honesty,

You know,

So and actually also helps with discerning of decisions and that sort of thing.

Because if I know someone's lying to my face,

I can just go,

Oh,

Right,

I value honesty.

And obviously,

They're actually back to the Kilimanjaro story,

I wanted to like,

Punch in the nose my guide,

Because I was like,

How much longer and he's like,

10 minutes,

I'm like,

And then you know,

15 would go by my David,

Like,

How much longer?

He's like,

10 minutes.

I'm like,

Oh,

My God,

This is like the most grueling thing.

And that was thing I just wanted honesty,

I wanted to say,

You know what,

It's going to be another 45 minutes,

You know,

But he is kept thinking,

And I'm like,

Just tell me the truth.

But then,

Right,

Being able to know that,

Yeah,

He was just telling me what I needed to hear in that moment allowed me to kind of let go of that work.

Like,

I want to see you value just getting me to the top of the map.

Yes.

And I'm like,

He values getting people to their goals through whatever means possible,

Including deception.

That's either right or wrong.

That's the thing with values,

Right?

And that's,

You know,

We talked a little bit about money before,

Like,

It's,

You know,

We can see it as a bad thing,

Or as a good thing.

It's just whatever resonates with you,

Like,

Even when I did my values,

I really fought against rest.

Like,

Really?

Because I like napping.

Come on.

I'm like,

That's wimpy,

You know?

And like,

Oh,

You need a nap.

And I really but it just kept coming to the top.

And that's what you'll find when they when they download this and do it.

It's kind of like you're panning for gold through all your values.

Yes.

And rest just kept coming up.

And I was like,

Fine.

Fine.

But then I looked at it as what are supporting values.

And that actually,

For me is balance.

That's health.

Because if I shall be,

I don't get my six to eight hours.

I am unbalanced.

I will literally get sick not long after.

So like,

Wow,

So rest is really a core one for me.

And then I shifted again,

Like reframing to it's my superpower.

Because I can have 10 minute power nap and be right as rain after I can fall asleep on the plane.

Like I'm like,

This is super cool.

But what I had,

You know,

The story I'd made for the first 20 years,

My life was that it was a wimpy thing,

Because you should hustle hard and grind and,

You know,

Exhaust yourself.

And I'm like,

And so I kind of go counterculture to that,

Right?

Like I always say,

Nothing's our most underutilized tool.

Well,

And here's me stepping in,

Again,

With like,

Grief is the divine feminine.

I'm like,

This is an old patriarchal view of you should always be hustling,

Always be achieving,

Always be accomplishing.

And if you're not,

Then you're failing.

If you're sleeping,

You're failing.

Yeah.

And,

And then in the in the feminine aspect of it,

Or the softer,

More human aspect of it,

There is,

If we're not sleeping,

We all become monsters,

Really.

And there's so much even research now I'm thinking immediately of like Arianna Huffington and people like that who are releasing these books on why we sleep and why sleep is so important.

And,

And really what happens within the brain and within the body within the psyche,

That improves waking life when we sleep.

So I'm like total nap advocate.

Also,

I'm a plane sleeper.

And it's a problem.

I tell people I'm like,

I'm the worst navigator in the world.

Because as soon as you put me in a car and it starts rumbling on the interstate,

I am out like a like,

So you better know where you're going,

Because I am of no use to you whatsoever.

I also get DJ privileges,

Right?

You have to work.

They can just DJ podcast,

Whatever privileges.

Absolutely.

As long as I get my little pillow and my,

My,

Like,

Pictures on on my feet.

I'm like,

I'm toast out for the day.

But yes.

And I think that's something that happens a lot in life after loss too,

Is there's a renegotiating of core values.

It's like what I used to value and prioritize,

And then what I value and prioritize now.

And there's this interim period,

There's like this unknown period of like,

I'm not really sure what my core values are.

And I wonder if you can say anything to people who are kind of in that chasm between two solid identities or two solid trajectories of like,

Maybe how to inch towards their next core values,

Or what to do in that gap space.

Yeah,

And actually,

That's something you can talk about is mind minding that gap,

You know,

So we also have our professed values,

And then how we're actually living.

So expectation versus reality.

I love this.

I do this in my world.

Oh,

My gosh,

Yeah.

Well,

Because even I should that's how I kept rumbling with rest was can you I'm like,

Okay,

Well,

You know,

Again,

This is more societal thing where it's like,

Well,

Obviously,

I value health.

And it's like,

Okay,

Well,

What am I doing every day to ensure that my health is a priority?

And I was like,

Well,

I shower.

Brush my teeth.

That's hygiene,

You know,

Like,

But that's where I'm like,

Oh,

Gosh,

Okay.

Yeah,

My gap for what I what I say is a value of health,

When I really drill it down,

It's rest,

You know,

So again,

It's all about taking action,

Which is the coach in me,

Right?

Like it's moving forward.

So if you do find your gap is quite large,

That's okay.

And again,

Like,

We're laughing.

It's the knowing laughter,

Like,

We all do this.

But how can you then take one small step towards?

So let's go back to the health room,

Right?

So if it is like,

Okay,

Well,

You know what my nutrition,

Or my sleep,

Or what can you do?

Or maybe it's meditation,

Because you're always like,

Your head.

So what's the one thing?

And that's all it's one of my absolute favorites of one of the yoga sutras to choose,

Focus,

Sustain,

Choose one thing,

Because that's where we also tend to get overwhelmed,

Right?

It's like,

Well,

I could I could make a salad,

And then I can go for a run.

And then I can get to bed early.

And it's like,

Just choose one of those.

But giving yourself permission for that,

Because again,

That this world we're so like,

Let's go,

Let's hustle,

Let's do the things.

And it's like,

But choose one,

Sustain it over time,

You can decide how long that is,

Maybe it's two weeks,

Maybe it's a month,

Maybe it's a day,

I don't know,

Sustain that and just focus on that one thing.

But it's so hard,

Right?

Because like,

We're like,

But I can do 50.

But are you know,

Let's just choose one get that it was kind of like learning,

You know,

To brush your teeth.

It's awkward or quitting smoking,

Right?

It's awkward at first,

Then you keep doing it daily,

Show up daily,

Keep doing it,

And then it becomes habitual,

Like any,

Right.

And then that will be like,

Yeah,

Maybe you are the person that then has,

You know,

Fish Fridays,

Or whatever it is like,

That's going to be your your way to more nutrition,

Then only then can you add one more thing in,

And then choose and focus,

Sustain that,

And keep going,

You know,

So doesn't need to be that overwhelmed with like,

Oh,

My God,

Look at the size of the gap between professed values and what I'm doing.

What's one thing?

One thing that will push you towards the value that you want to make a priority in your life?

Yeah,

And it won't laughing internally,

Because I think we all know these people who on January 1,

Are like,

I'm gonna reinvent my whole life.

And then they're good for we all take high low bets of how long it's actually gonna last.

And this is a terrible human thing that I do.

And usually,

It's about two days,

About 48 hours.

Because once they get to that third day,

It's it's off the wagon,

Or they have a pretty good stint.

But by June,

You're like,

Hey,

So what happened to whether it's,

You know,

Whether it's going to the gym,

Walking outside,

Reading 50 blocks,

Whatever it is.

And I have this temptation for myself,

Because it's so fun to live in the land of the imagination where anything is possible.

And you have endless hours in the day and endless energy and endless information and endless friends.

And then you come into the realm of the physical and you're like,

Oh,

Crap,

I've got a shoestring and a bus pass and 110 a shoe.

And I'm trying to figure out how to do life with these things and accomplish them.

And I love this habit of,

I wrote down choose focus sustain,

Because it's almost like you add something in.

And once it becomes invisible,

Or goes on autopilot,

Then you can add something else.

And it's almost it's a more integrated and slower and human way to approach it as opposed to I'm going to wake up one day and everything's going to be different because even that can be a shock to our,

Our spirits,

Our energy,

Our,

Our brains,

It's like we can't adapt to a new thought immediately,

Except only in certain cases.

I know the author Gretchen Rubin talks about having lightning bolt moments where people read something,

Hear something,

See something,

Experience something in their whole life changes.

She said people have lightning bolt moments,

Maybe once or twice in their whole lives,

Where somebody sees like,

A documentary and then they're instantly vegan,

Or when somebody has a child,

They find out they're pregnant,

And they stop smoking instantly.

And so she's like lightning bolt moment.

She's like,

They don't happen very often.

But when they do,

People change their lives drastically.

The rest of us humans and the rest of the big changes we make in our lives are these gradual,

I have to make it convenient for myself,

I have to incorporate it into my life,

I have to essentially forget that I'm doing it at all.

And then I can look at and change something else.

And that's really tricky,

Because I think for a lot of people,

They feel like the experience of grief was so hard,

So bad,

So traumatic,

That it doesn't seem like doing enough to pull yourself out of the hole that grief has dropped you in.

And that's really hard.

I do this exercise with my,

My grief growers in a program called Life After Loss Academy,

Where I talk about reclaiming 1% of your day,

Which is literally 10 minutes of your life.

And I was on a live call with my students.

And they were like,

I'm really having a hard time getting this.

I don't know what to do with my 10 minutes.

And they're like,

I have a bunch of ideas and a lot of things that I could do,

But I just can't motivate myself to do it.

And some voice in the back of my head was like,

Does this feel stupid,

Or useless?

Like,

It's not enough to impact your grief.

And she was like,

You she's like,

I wouldn't call it stupid.

Like,

That's the word that you're going to choose.

But she's like,

Yeah,

It doesn't feel like it's going to do anything to help.

And so it really pointed out the power of the small,

Because when I started reclaiming 10 minutes of my day in grief,

It started being almost like a security blanket of no matter what else happens for the other 16 hours,

I'm awake,

I have 10 minutes where I know exactly what's happening.

I know where I am,

And I know what I'm doing.

And that core that basis foundation of safety,

Or certainty or even in a twisted way,

Kind of like control or this belongs to me.

I was like,

From here,

Over the course of three and a half years,

I'm like,

I'm going to use this as a launchpad to start to do other things that take longer than 10 minutes and are things I want to do in my life.

But this idea of small change just doesn't feel like enough.

Yes,

You're correct.

It doesn't feel like enough.

But the reality and the the neurological science shows us that it is.

Exactly.

And,

And that sustainability.

Yes,

Right.

Because I think that's where we tend to get,

Like you're saying the January 1,

You know,

Let's do the things.

It's very fiery energy,

Right?

It's like,

Here we go.

And that's not sustainable.

We know that you're not going to pack a salad every day and ride your bike for three hours.

And like,

That's just not.

And then conversely,

Kind of in the winter,

You know,

Of the seasons,

It's more very introspective and slower and like a rock in the river,

You know,

And that's not sustainable either.

So we need to find that more happy medium,

Which is exactly how we get there is those one little steps,

Either from either side,

Either it's from the fiery side or from them,

Like we're saying more in grief,

It's more that that really slow,

Dark cold kind of feeling of winter.

And then just Yeah,

How can we even as you look again,

I love using nature as a reference,

Like,

Well,

Look at the flowers don't boom,

Pum up like,

You know,

Overnight.

And that gives you a bit of hope.

And then you see,

Like,

Over the weeks,

And the buds start in the trees,

And you're like,

Oh,

My gosh,

And then that's kind of every experience of loss.

I mean,

Personally,

That I've been through,

That's how it goes.

I want it to be faster.

I wish there was a big body boo.

Here's the change.

And I feel better.

But no,

It's that slow,

Right?

It's the tortoise in the hair.

It's you know,

I'm going to take these little slow,

Measured steps forward that just get me closer to whatever my goal is.

And I just said before to the lightning bolt reference.

Yeah,

For sure that can happen.

And those are amazing.

But I always tell my clients,

It's really more like twinkle lights,

You know,

Like little fairy lights that one little light will come on,

And then another one and then soon enough of those string up together that it illuminates the whole room.

So even though it might be feeling,

You know,

Pretty dark,

And we want the lightning bolt,

We want the flash,

It's really more and against a small little,

Yeah,

Light efforts that really add up and those are what are sustainable as well.

And then also just circle back even if you are,

I know we're kind of in that peak time,

I think even scientists said it was January 26,

Or something like that,

Where they've actually realized where most people do fall off of New Year's resolution resolutions.

As we said before,

It's not failure.

So not fair,

You just tried and now you're just learning from that.

So maybe I did go too hard too fast,

Too soon.

What can I do that will again,

Just be one step below that.

So maybe you know,

I'm not doing five salads a week,

It's going to be one,

You know,

Whatever that is,

That will just give you that permission to dial it back.

And then conversely,

If you're on the other end of the spectrum,

More in that wintery kind of stage,

What's one thing that will help you feel better?

So maybe it's wearing bright colored clothes,

As I'm wearing a black hoodie.

Maybe it's that's,

That's the one thing or maybe you,

You know,

Have whatever it is that will make you feel better and put you more towards your goal.

So what's a habit or a practice that you've employed after a loss that's tremendously helped you?

Oh,

We get some juices and ideas flowing here.

I kind of mentioned my 10 minutes,

I would read a little like a tip one of those tear off devotional calendars,

And I would just let myself sit on my bed for 10 minutes and either close my eyes and meditate or just think about it because sometimes I felt like my brain was too fast to really meditate and be happy about myself meditating because there's meditation and then there's how you feel about yourself meditating,

Which are two totally different things.

So I'd let myself just sit in my bed for 10 minutes,

Then I was like,

Okay,

I'm gonna put my shoes on,

It's time to go.

And that's,

That's just an example of mine.

But I know there are a lot of ways that people have started to reclaim themselves in their lives again,

After a loss,

I would say I'm gonna go with a more very recent one of community care.

So real,

I mean,

This is also going to go back to I have perfectionist tendencies,

Shelby,

Which is why Renee Brown,

Like when she wrapped language around perfectionism,

I was like,

Oh,

This is me.

But one of the kind of shadow sides of that is asking for help.

I sucked at asking for help.

And only by giving myself permission to reach out.

And recently,

Like in last month,

This really came forward or Wow,

The power of,

Again,

Acknowledging that things aren't great.

Right now,

Life isn't always shown,

You know,

Sunshine,

Glitter and rainbows.

And really honouring that,

Honouring the grief that wanted to come up because I was textbook,

Not wanting to look at it.

Let's just have the beginning.

I was like,

No,

Another day,

That's gonna,

You know,

I'll deal with that later.

But it just kept coming up for me.

So when it did,

Instead of my normal tendency to isolate,

I reached out,

Which was awkward,

As you're saying with anything,

Right?

It's a little awkward at first,

Like trying to quit smoking,

It's gonna be awkward.

But the more I reached out and just shared my stories,

People that I really trusted,

The support and love that came through that really,

Really helped me.

Whereas normally,

I would have,

Yeah,

Just like,

I know what to do.

I've got all the tools,

Like,

Right,

Like I coach on this,

I know what to do.

But pretty personally,

It was more of the reaching out to my community to help me.

Yeah,

There is that temptation that because I talked about grief,

I know everything about it.

So I don't need any help.

And I'm like,

Oh,

That's the biggest pile of BS I've ever heard in my life.

Oh,

Yeah.

Sometimes that's where I look.

So I insisted when I first started doing this work,

I released this article called I still wake up crying.

Because it's a reality for me.

Like I teach this because I need it,

Not because it's gone away.

And because I'm good at it or anything like that.

But I sense the same is true for you.

But there's almost this notion of I should know what to do as I do this all the time.

Death to the shoulds.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So yeah,

So as I said,

I was very recent one for me,

Where I was just realizing that power and,

And honoring the courage that takes to reach out as well.

Yes,

Yeah.

And I hear so many times from grief growers and listeners of this podcast of like,

I'm just so afraid to reach out because I'm afraid nobody will get it.

And something that I tell people,

And I don't know if you might have some wisdom for them as well,

Is that you don't have to say everything that's going on.

But even just saying I'm having a hard time right now.

And would it be possible for you to insert request here?

And it doesn't have to be a big request either.

Can you come over and walk my dog?

Can you,

You know,

Pick up my mail?

We're going out of town.

Can you cover my desk for 10 minutes at work like it like they don't have to be,

You know,

Make a seven course dinner for me and my family and the babysitter like it doesn't have to be big,

But it feels big making these requests from others feels big,

And even knowing what you need can be overwhelming as well.

Right.

And to your point,

I always just say that the specific specificity,

Because people always say,

Well,

Let me know whatever you need.

I mean,

Are you actually going to pick up the phone?

You know,

When when you really like I said,

That's what I struggle with.

I'm like,

I don't want to burden them.

I don't want you know,

And reaching out to people that have earned that right to hear your story.

Because we can shame grief,

Right?

Why aren't you over it yet?

You know,

So knowing who you can lean on.

And that's,

Again,

Why I kind of emphasize the community care because you need to have whatever those 123 people in your life that over time,

They have shown up for you can be there for you are the non judgmental compassionate sounding boards that you need when you are in struggle.

And that's who you lean on.

And also helping them by saying,

Yeah,

Can you just come in?

I'm just looking at this winter and like all the snow,

But can you come shovel the walk?

Yeah,

Can you come take my dog out?

That's gonna help bridge right that's gonna help close that gap between you and them because they may not know I guess I had a I had a post called beyond the casserole.

Like how to really show up.

That's not just there are a million ways we can do it.

But also the greaver knowing what they need.

And sometimes I'll just say like,

You know what,

I'm having a tough day.

Can you just send me some funny gifts or like puppy videos or whatever it is,

It's just gonna feel better.

And maybe another time,

It's like,

I need you to get me out of the house.

Let's go to a yoga class,

Or I don't know,

Let's go for a walk or dancing or whatever it is that I'm doing.

And then there's a little thing that I need to do.

And that is that I like maybe I need to physically move in that moment.

Maybe I need you to come over.

We're gonna watch a sappy rom com and cry together.

The shift every as we know,

Every minute every day,

And even people asking that as well,

You know,

Like,

How are you feeling today?

What can I help you with today?

Can you show yourself to Yes.

Bring it a little more focused.

Yeah,

Small things that make an enormous difference is asking today in this moment right now.

But again,

If you could have that,

What would it be and honoring the courage that takes because again,

That's you know,

Courage is also built up over time.

It's all those little steps.

It's not going to be as big lions roar.

You know,

It's like,

How can you Okay,

Well,

Today I need this.

Am I brave enough to ask for it?

Okay,

Let's try it.

Let's see.

And what do I need?

And I'm just repeating but yeah,

Yeah,

Little things.

That's perfect.

I'm wondering what's coming up next for you on your deathbed regrets list.

Right?

I mean,

Like me personally?

Oh,

Yeah.

Oddly enough,

So get this kind of a tricky story.

When I was in Australia,

I was working for the Australian Federation of AIDS Organizations as a temp design backpacking.

That was a time when my friend Tracy was killed in that car accident.

And I was not dealing I was the textbook keep busy,

Just throw yourself in the car.

And I was like,

I'm not going to work.

I'm a temp,

Right?

I do not need to be there past 5pm.

And especially in Australia,

Where they have the like,

Live,

You know,

Like work to play kind of mentality.

And my boss is like,

Hey,

Why are you here?

It's 510.

You know,

I'm like,

Oh,

I'm just finishing these emails.

That's all good.

And she's like,

Yeah,

I've booked you a therapist appointment,

Because you're not dealing with the death of your friend.

I'm like,

Fine,

Whatever.

I'm like,

I'm just going to go to that.

And the care and compassion that women showed me when she knew I didn't have money for therapy and really stuck with me over the years,

Because that was in 2001.

So we connected on good old Instagram.

And she sent me this picture because she's now in South Africa.

So here we go for circle that South Africa again.

But she's like,

Yeah,

I'm just sitting here looking out over the ocean bottom like what she got a place in South Africa now that I've been there.

So for me,

That's the next thing that'll be happening for me because that would be a regret if I didn't get to reconnect with her at a place that I've ever been before.

So yeah,

So we're in talks about when that's going to happen.

So that's so cool.

Yeah,

Right.

That's so cool.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Life.

Thus we come full circle.

Stuff like that always makes me really happy.

I know.

Yeah.

So that's next.

I mean,

Yeah.

And then also converting.

So the dude that differently module that people again can download on there.

I'm gonna be turning that into like a full blown online course with more support and,

And that sort of thing on there too.

So that's what's happening business wise.

But yeah,

Travel.

I got some itchy feet happening.

So yes,

Yeah.

But the thing that pops up right now,

Like if I die in six months,

What would I be really mad about not accomplishing and and to have that be something on the list?