Mindful Phone Use With Sanda Skoro

Hey guys,

Just a fair warning before you dive in that this podcast does contain explicit language.

Okay,

Here we go.

Hi,

How's it going?

Hi,

I'm good.

How are you?

I'm doing well,

Thank you.

I'm super excited to connect.

Today is a super,

Super,

Super special episode of the podcast because it's also a livestream.

So it's also going to be up on YouTube,

Which is super nerve-wracking.

But really,

Really exciting.

I'm really happy to be here connecting with you.

And this has been kind of a long time coming because we've been friends for like a year now.

That's super exciting to be able to do this together.

Yeah,

I'm really looking forward to our conversation and I'm so happy that you invited me.

It's my first interview in English,

So it's a bit nerve-wracking for me as well in that regard.

It's my first interview in English.

So why don't we start off by you telling us a little bit about yourself?

Okay,

So I'm Sanda Škoro.

I live in a beautiful pocket-sized country next to Italy called Slovenia.

I'm originally from Bosnia,

Though.

And I'm also a podcaster,

But my podcast is in Slovenes,

So I won't even mention it here because I know that your listeners won't be able to understand.

But my.

.

.

I don't know.

It's really hard to describe yourself sometimes.

I'm a geek regarding all things,

How life works and how the universe works.

I'm really excited about figuring out the laws of the universe and life and everything.

Like,

If I do this,

What will happen?

How will my reality change and everything?

I'm always like,

I don't know,

I'm washing the dishes and just kind of putting things together in my head and having aha moments with myself.

And I have this innate ability,

I think,

To just kind of see where people get stuck and how they can get unstuck.

So that translates to me being a life coach,

But I really don't like the label.

Oh,

Wow.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

I think most life coaches don't like the label.

I feel that.

I really,

Really do.

I really do.

Not a wonderful label.

I agree.

Yeah,

And it's like saying you're human.

There's so much variety in that label.

Everyone's so different.

So anyway,

What I'm most passionate about is,

Like I said,

Figuring out how things work for myself and then also helping others.

And I believe that we all have a responsibility to share what comes naturally and what we feel intuitively that we need to share in this world.

And that everyone contributes a little part of their own energy and the contribution that we are.

And then put together,

There's this beautiful picture of all of us on this planet.

So I see my contribution as helping people to be more in touch with themselves,

To accept themselves,

To lead lives of well-being and also to fulfill their potentials.

Because in my life,

The worst feeling I can have is the feeling that I'm not really living the life I'm meant to live.

And feeling that gap between where I am and where I feel that I could be.

So that's something I feel driven to help others with as well.

And then,

You know,

Just like very practically that translates into me doing one-on-one coaching and then having programs like enhancing your intuition.

And then also like what we're going to talk about today,

Like how to have a better relationship with your phone and things like that that kind of don't seem random,

But they all connect to in this picture of like you're living the life that you're meant to live and that you're also at peace with yourself and contribute your best self to the world.

Oh,

Yeah.

Oh,

Yeah.

I hope that made sense.

It was great.

And like I think that like what you said,

It sounds random,

But there is just nothing as random.

Like it's all interconnected and every area of your life leads into every other area of your life.

And I think that that's actually where people kind of get tripped up is that they think that like maybe sometimes,

Oh,

What's the point of like learning about this or what's the point of investing in myself or what's the point of working with a life coach?

But like working on one area of your life inevitably brings positive benefits to every other area of your life because you're not a faceted human being,

Right?

Like you're multifaceted and every part of you is interconnected.

It's just and we're all interconnected with each other as well.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So,

Yeah,

I love that.

Like also my first experiences with coaching,

Like being a client where that I don't know,

I started off with like,

Oh,

I have this one tiny little problem that's bugging me with this person.

And then it turned out,

Whoa,

This connects to my biggest fear.

And,

You know,

Cleaning that up,

Like liberated me in ways that I didn't even know were possible.

So,

Yeah.

Is that part of how you got started as a coach was being client first?

Yeah.

Yeah,

I had this medical condition that just scared me.

It was nothing serious,

But they didn't really know.

And that was in 2012.

I don't know if you remember,

But there was this whole talk about like the world ending and everything because the energy,

Literally the energy shifted and a lot of people started off the awakening process.

You know,

It was like a mass awakening.

And I was obviously part of that wave because life kind of squeezed me into this like stressful position of like being afraid for my life basically.

And it made me open up to the possibility that the things beyond our senses exist because before that I was very analytical,

Very left brain.

I was raised to,

You know,

Believe in science and nothing else.

Although I always had this feeling that there was more.

And then,

You know,

I was diagnosed with this like breast tumor.

And I would,

Yeah,

But it was like I knew I would be okay,

But it was my wake up call,

You know,

We'll have these wake up calls some sometimes it's a breakup,

Sometimes it's a disease or it's,

I don't know,

Someone close to you dying or something,

You know,

Tragic or at least shocking happens so that you kind of crack enough to let in the light.

And that happened for me.

And I was first introduced to NLP coaching.

And then I went on to study NLP because I found it fascinating but I really moved on since then to like other things.

And I also opened up to the possibility that there,

There are these things called spirit guides and angels and all of it because I have a friend that I met in that year who channels these light beings and I've learned so much about life because literally you can ask anything and get an answer.

And it's my it's what really guides my life.

And I've learned so much about life.

Like literally you can ask anything,

Anything and get an answer.

And it's my it's it's what really guides my life.

And how it's broadened my perspective so much.

So,

Yeah,

I think it's really interesting that you said that Oh,

It's funny that we ended up here that you weren't expecting it to,

I actually think that it's exactly where we were meant to end up because we're talking about like,

We're going to be talking about how to kind of have a more of a compassionate and like balanced relationship with your tech and people use tech in order to connect with you.

Connect and,

You know,

Kind of like get that sort of feedback and you're talking about a whole other channel a whole other way of connecting and of getting that has nothing to do with like being immersed in like whatever bullshit is coming through on Instagram or whatever.

Right,

Like,

And so it's really interesting because we do those things specifically because we want to get that kind of like dopamine hit we want that kind of kick and you're bringing up now such a like a beautiful way to get that connection.

That's a lot healthier.

And scrolling endlessly on social media so yeah.

Have you seen that meme on Facebook or wherever,

Where there's a picture of the forest,

And it says,

There's no Wi Fi but the connection is better.

I think that pretty much sums it up,

And I think when we,

When we crave any type of connection,

Whether it's like scrolling on Facebook or calling a friend to chat or,

You know,

Just wanting to connect with others.

The only thing that we're ultimately craving is to be connected to ourselves.

And I think,

I know that sounds really cliche but it's really really true.

And one of the things that we'll talk about this later on I guess more,

But one of the things that I found is whenever I'm spending way too much time on my phone and I'm talking mindless phone usage,

I'm not talking like actually calling someone or getting some work done or whatever I'm talking like just turning off your,

Your brain just like being there.

And that's when I feel most disconnected from myself and that's where,

When I really need that need to come back home to myself.

Oh my god.

And I can look at my like digital balance you know there's this,

There's this information in our phones and our smartphones where you can look up how much time you spent on your phone,

I didn't know that existed before.

But you can see how much time you spent on your phone,

And it's also divided by the app.

So you can see how much time you spend talking or on Instagram or Facebook or whatever.

And I can literally like tell you on which days,

I was not doing so well.

Yeah,

Because that's,

Those are the days where I spent more time on my phone.

And there's like a direct correlation.

Interesting and I like if I think back to my own tech usage and like the days exactly what you're saying like the days when I use tech the most.

I find that I'm looking for something that will make me feel better,

Obviously,

Because I think that's,

We're only ever every thing that we do is motivated by the desire to feel good.

Like even the bad stuff that we do,

We think we do it because we think it will make us feel good even if that good is only temporary it doesn't matter.

But when I'm kind of searching for that I'm,

I think I go on there sometimes because I follow a lot of people in the self help industry,

Looking to quote unquote be fixed.

Like,

I'm kind of searching for like okay what can I,

What can I learn today that's going to make me a better person or that's going to make my life better,

But even though it's like,

Okay,

Better than like maybe comparing myself to other people it's still like an addiction,

It's still like something that's,

That even starting off healthy becomes unhealthy.

Yeah,

And I think for me at least,

When I when I do that,

It also tends to come from a place of I'm not good enough to learn and I need to like,

I need to do,

I need to be more like these people that I follow that followers and I need to figure this thing out before I can do blah blah blah so it's it's a bit of that like,

Yeah,

Not not feeling good enough.

And Instagram is turned into like a marketplace,

It's literally a bazaar of everybody selling everything.

And I can't say that I'm fully exempt from that,

But it's,

It does become like somewhat overwhelming as well because we're using social media to sell,

Not just to connect,

Which I think,

You know,

Changes,

Changes the landscape of the,

Of the app and the way that we use it and engage with it so.

When did you first become interested in like this discussion of like mindful tech usage.

I think it was like last year,

Probably,

When I kind of started noticing that this,

The way that I'm using,

Especially my phone is just not healthy,

But I didn't really know what to do about it and I just beat myself up.

That was so,

And then this year at the beginning of the year I think around January,

You know,

Around the New Year's resolutions time.

I want to be more present in my life because I'm not a naturally focused person,

Like I need to work on being focused.

And if I want to get anything done and,

You know,

Move the needle.

I need to be focused and I need to be present and I saw that my phone was,

Was this thing that was way out of my,

Out of my control basically it's kind of,

You know,

It's a with when they say,

It's a good slave but a bad master.

Okay.

And it became my master in a way,

And I was really angry with myself and frustrated.

And that kind of peaked in May.

That's like three or four months ago,

Where I had this moment after,

You know,

Having decided a bazillion times that I was going to use my phone more consciously.

I spent the whole day,

Basically,

Like throwing away my focus just by checking every five minutes if there was something new on Facebook.

Facebook was my app that really got to me.

Facebook was your drug of choice.

Yeah,

My drug of choice.

Exactly.

And then,

Then it was because I work from home and I work by myself and it's really,

You know,

Everything that gets done,

I have to do it because I'm,

You know,

I self disciplined or whatever,

You know,

It's,

It's not like I'm in an office environment and I have these work hours that kind of are the external motivation.

But it all has to be internal.

And that's kind of my,

My challenge.

So,

It was evening it was a Thursday evening I remember exactly.

And I was feeling so disconnected from myself and so angry with myself for spending the whole day on my phone.

And I decided to,

I decided to do this crazy thing where I filmed myself like first I did a meditation like a heart opening meditation and I meditate regularly,

Which was part of the frustration like what,

You know,

I can say,

What the fuck here on your podcast right.

Absolutely can.

What the fuck you know like you're,

You're this,

Like you're,

You live a relatively conscious life like I try.

I meditate regularly,

I'm aware of myself and why am I spending hours on this stupid device,

You know,

Why is it stronger than me.

And then I went into meditation with the intention to kind of let go of that addiction.

After the meditation I added this silly thing where I recorded myself.

And I did like this memo to myself for the next morning like Santa when you wake up,

Don't look at the phone.

Instead,

You know,

See what you want to do this day and la la la.

And then the next thing I did was open Facebook.

Immediately after.

Yeah.

And that was my,

My rock bottom moment where I was like,

Okay,

I really.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I was like this this is crazy like this is crazy and then immediately I uninstalled it from my phone.

Yes.

And I didn't really reinstall it until maybe two months later when I felt like it had loosened its grip on me and I was safe.

And then I was trying to figure out different ways,

And I like to do,

I like to do things integrally I guess I don't know if that's the right word but like,

Not just one sided but to look at life as a whole,

You know.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I didn't want to end up like not being able to use my phone at all because it's a problem you know,

Like I didn't want to have to delete all my apps and go back to go back to the stone age of phone usage,

You know,

Of course,

I still want to,

You know,

I,

I use it it's good,

Like there's good things that come from it.

And I wanted to be able to use it and be free,

You know,

Be,

Be mindful and actually be using because I want to not because I'm addicted to it.

Yes.

So I started thinking about,

Like,

Different approaches and I started reading up on all these settings that you can set on your phone that,

Like,

Make it easier to not use it as much.

And also I started to observe myself.

And the first three or four days after I deleted Facebook.

I uninstalled it from my phone.

I actually,

I had this tick where I would pick up my phone every time I felt slightly bored or slightly unpleasant,

It wasn't like my world was falling falling apart and I needed a distraction it was like,

Oh,

I'm cooking spaghetti,

And I'm waiting for the water to boil and let's check Facebook.

Yes,

Like I'm,

I'm.

Oh yeah.

I don't know what to say to that I really,

Really don't like it and it becomes a habit like it literally,

I pick up the phone and I don't even know the steps that I took to get to opening the app.

Like,

Do you know what I mean?

I just did it.

It's like,

Right when you take that same road to work and you're like,

Holy shit.

Yeah,

Like,

Two seconds ago I was just getting into my car.

I'm already at home and you don't want to know about the trip and like nothing went wrong,

But it's very much that it becomes like muscle memory where you just pick up the phone,

Touch it,

Go and like,

You're like,

Holy shit.

I just,

I am Alice and I'm so far down the rabbit hole.

It's insane.

Yeah,

That shocked me like my fingers,

My hand just had this movement,

You know,

I'm like,

Starting to scroll I'm like,

Oh,

I forget I don't have Facebook on my phone anymore.

And what I found interesting was,

I could always turn on my computer and go on Facebook and check the update.

But I didn't even,

I didn't want to because it's not that I want to go on Facebook and look at the updates.

It's just a habit.

And it's just an addiction.

Because of the chemistry in our brains.

So yeah,

I ended up like really talking about this a lot with my friends and I ended up doing a workshop around this and explaining to people how they can establish a more healthy,

Healthier relationship to their phone.

And I'm really passionate about this because I,

The more I dug into this topic,

The more I realized,

This is not trivial.

This is not something that is a small vice,

You know?

This is not a guilty pleasure.

This is destructive.

This is so bad for our health,

Our lives,

Our relationships,

Our children.

I don't have children yet,

But I read a few things about how children are really vulnerable to digital addiction.

And it's crazy.

Like they don't learn social skills.

They don't have any,

Like not any,

But their emotional intelligence is slower.

And it's just because,

You know,

We're not even aware of the problem,

Of the scope of the problem.

I think it's interesting too,

Because I've read that it also affects imagination where it like hinders people being able to like create things like,

Or like come up with ideas.

And I didn't grow up in the tech era necessarily,

But I grew up watching a lot of television.

And I feel that like when I read that I really resonate with that because in my childhood,

My fun was watching movies,

Was watching TV.

And I never really had to create my own worlds.

And so like even to this day,

I find visualizing actually very challenging.

And I'm sure that a part of that might just be who I am as a person because I know that not everybody is capable of visualization.

But I also think that part of it has to do with the fact that I never practiced that skill as a child.

And it's kind of like coming up now.

And it's interesting to what you said about like us not really knowing like it's insidious.

We don't really understand.

And it's even more insidious because these products are literally created with the scope of attacking us in this kind of way.

Like attacking might be a little more,

It might be a little bit too aggressive,

But it's that idea of like,

No,

It's being created specifically to make you addicted to it.

To get it so that you are spending your time on there.

And then eventually,

I mean,

Obviously,

Usually the ends to all of these is hopefully spending money.

Money.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Because all these really problematic apps like Facebook and Instagram and YouTube,

Whatever,

Like fill in the gap.

The business model is if we spend more time on their app,

They will earn more money with advertising.

That's the business model.

So,

Of course,

Normal.

It's normal that they want us to spend as much time as possible.

And the idea that they're selling is that we'll be more connected.

But like we talked earlier,

We're,

Yes,

You know,

You and I wouldn't have met if it wasn't for Facebook.

There are good things there.

That is part of the truth that,

Yes,

We do meet more people or we do connect with more people.

We do get more information,

Although,

You know,

Fake news and everything.

But,

You know,

There are these good sides,

But we also disconnect from real life and ourselves and our real life connections.

Yeah.

And if I was really like friends with.

It's five percent of the people I'm friends with on Facebook.

Oh,

You know,

That would be amazing.

Not all the time,

Though,

Even.

Right.

Like,

I know because people on there who have like thousands of friends.

And the first thing I think when I see that is,

No,

You don't.

But whatever,

You know,

Like that's that's a whole other discussion.

But yeah,

Yeah,

Absolutely.

It's it's it is a real connection.

But I feel like it's worth mentioning to that our connection and deepened because we made the time investment outside of Facebook.

Because we may have met there and that might be the starting off point.

But it's not like you it doesn't necessarily foster deep connection.

It fosters multiple connections.

Yeah.

Well,

Quantity is not necessarily or in my opinion,

Ever better than quality.

So exactly.

And I think one of the things that happens when we when we open a newsfeed of a social network is that we are not really proactive.

We are not really intentional about what we are letting into our brains,

Into our energy fields,

If you want.

Because,

You know,

When you open Facebook or or whatever,

You know,

I'm saying Facebook like it's the devil,

But what whichever app that has a newsfeed,

Your app of choice.

Yeah,

Your app of choice.

One that has a newsfeed.

You're actually kind of saying it's like,

Imagine this.

Imagine like you're in your home and then you open your door and just say whoever wants to enter,

Enter.

You know,

Here you can have you can have my attention,

You can have my energy,

You can have my time.

And you let in some friends,

But then you let in people you don't really know.

Some people that really annoy you.

You let in people that trigger you.

You let in the worst news.

And you all you have that in your home.

Yeah,

Because you have that in your head.

You have that in your energy field.

And our minds have to process so much information these days because we're inundated with information.

Our brain wasn't really designed for this.

And of course,

It causes stress.

I mean,

Among other things.

It's one of the things that cause stress because we have so much information to kind of process and handle.

And then we can sleep at night.

Also blue screens like there's.

Yeah,

Exactly.

We're talking about them like they're the devil.

Really,

Really demonizing tech use right now.

But I think that there's like,

I mean,

There's good and bad to everything.

And you have to find a way to take control of it and make it as good for you as possible.

I know that like you're going to give us some steps and how we can make usage more mindful,

You know,

Be more compassionate to ourselves when we're using our phones.

And I know that like I've personally been on a journey with this for years because I absolutely refuse to let other people's bullshit into my life.

Like I refuse.

And I had had enough back in the day.

I mean,

I did this years and years ago.

I think as soon as the feature became available,

This was one of the first things that I did.

But I actually went through and I maintained my connections and I unfollowed everyone.

So I still can follow my friends,

But I don't see like Bobby is having a coke or like,

You know,

Like,

Oh,

Whatever political like opinion somebody wants to spot on Facebook.

Like none of that is interesting to me.

I just don't want to hear it.

I don't want it to be a part of my world.

And so I actively took steps as soon as it was available to me to like get rid of that.

I can't wait to hear what tips you have for our listeners as to how they can be more mindful with their tech.

OK,

So I was thinking of doing like three steps for clarity's sake.

And it's also easier to remember.

So the first step I see is really necessary is to actually make a decision.

And what do I mean by the hardest step?

Yeah,

Possibly like the thing is that I had decided a million times that I wanted to use my phone less and more mindfully.

But every time that decision came from me being angry with myself and frustrated and beating myself up.

And that's the worst energy that you can make a decision from.

That's actually not for you.

That's against you.

So,

You know,

That applies to everything to why you want to lose weight or why you want to,

I don't know,

Have a new partner in life or whatever is the energy from which we we start off a project,

The decision or whatever is really important because that's the main ingredient of what we're getting into.

Absolutely.

I know that you can't hate yourself.

Happy.

Exactly.

Skinny.

That's not how that works.

Yeah.

Start off in a better place in order to manifest the results that you are looking for.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So in order to make that decision and to really make it a big one and a conscious one and to make it stick,

I think it's really important to realize that,

Like I said before,

This isn't trivial.

This is really,

Really important in our lives.

This impacts the quality of our lives,

Our health,

Our relationships.

I can give you some interesting data that I found.

One of the things that I found hilarious was that there was this research done at King's College London where they gave a group of people some texts and assignments related to those texts.

And they interrupted them with emails and phone calls and messages,

And I had to work on that text,

But at the same time they were interrupted.

They had these distractions and the study found that their IQ dropped by,

I think,

10 points.

I'm lying now.

I think it's 10 points.

And the funny thing is that I think another research found that if you smoke marijuana and if you're high on marijuana,

Your IQ drops by four points.

So not to encourage anyone to smoke marijuana,

But distractions make you more stupid than being high.

That's crazy.

I wouldn't have guessed that.

No,

I mean it's completely insane.

And the thing is we think that we can multitask and we can get all these things done.

It doesn't matter if we just check our phone for just one minute,

But it really matters because it's been proven that developing focus can take up to 25 minutes.

And people at the workplace get interrupted on average every 12 minutes.

So that means we don't really work in a focused way at all.

On average,

Of course,

There are exceptions,

But that's our reality nowadays.

So we have to decide and we have to really decide from a place of wholeness and from a place of acceptance and from a place of not necessarily that you're happy with where you're at,

But a place of moving in the direction of your ultimate happiness.

I love myself so much that I want to use my tech mindfully,

Not just using my tech.

And this is a stop.

So the first thing is you have to be aware that this is not trivial,

That it's actually really important,

And then decide what kind of life do you want to have,

What are the things that are important to you,

And to actually visualize or feel into that reality that you want to create for yourself.

Because one thing that really hit me when I had that day when I hit rock bottom was I realized that,

Okay,

This may be a minute here and there and then half an hour here and there,

But that's every day and that's every week and that's every month.

And by the looks of it,

It will be every year of my life.

And I have big plans.

Like I said before,

I have this feeling of where I could be in life and what I'm here to do,

And I'm not there.

And then that gap is really horrifying.

And it's like,

This is my life.

I'm not creating that life for myself that I feel that I was born to create.

Ultimately,

That's a life that's wasted.

Yeah.

It sounds like you talked into your bigger why.

You decided and you found the why that would motivate you to stick to this vision.

Yeah,

That was for me my bigger why.

But for someone else,

It might be their health or their children or whatever.

But you have to imagine that future that you're jeopardizing if you don't make a change now.

Of course,

If you have a problem to start with,

But you know.

Yeah,

I love that.

So that's the decision.

Like make it because you love yourself enough to lead that life that you want to lead.

Absolutely.

And step two?

Step two is recognize that whenever you're craving that connection,

It's really like your soul calling you to connect to it or interpret that.

Interprets every time you pick up your phone mindlessly.

Interpret it as a cry for help.

Yeah.

Oh,

I love that.

Yeah,

Because when you think about it that way,

You realize that,

Okay,

I'm picking up my phone,

Not because I'm stupid or I'm I don't know,

I lack self control or whatever.

But because because I actually need something,

I have a need that's not being met.

You're craving connection.

You're craving attention.

You're craving something.

It could be you're craving to go to the bathroom.

It could be you're actually hungry,

You know,

Because we use these distractions to distract us from feeling whatever we're supposed to be feeling.

And we live in a society that's really all about distractions and all about not dealing with the bad stuff of life.

But that's just part of life.

Like sometimes you're bored and,

You know,

That's an unpleasant feeling.

But that's like the slightest unpleasant feeling.

But then sometimes your heart is breaking and,

You know,

You have huge worries that that are occupying your mind.

But they need attention because if we ignore them,

They'll just get worse.

So my suggestion is interpreted as a sign that you need to give yourself some attention and ask yourself this question.

What do I need right now?

What do I need?

Because it might be,

I don't know,

To breathe a little or really to go to the bathroom or eat or or to call someone and tell them what's on your mind.

You know,

Don't avoid life because it will just keep knocking on your door and it will just get worse.

But face it.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Because you can't you can't move forward when you're ignoring like a whole piece of your life or pretending that this is like,

OK,

When you might feel like it's not.

You know what I mean?

Because I think we all have those moments where we wake up from like the like when we come back from the from the rabbit hole and we're like,

Holy shit,

How did I get here?

Like you look you become aware maybe that you're on like a certain page on Facebook and you're like trying to like click backwards to like find out how you started to get to the point.

And you're like 25,

30 an hour down the line.

How did this happen?

Yeah,

We agree.

And I want to add here because you mentioned that like moment of waking up.

It's super important and it's part of step two to not beat yourself up about it.

To be like,

Oh,

OK,

I'm OK.

You know,

No reason to beat myself up about it.

Just I need something.

What me what need is not being met.

Let's take care of it.

You know,

To approach yourself with love.

Yeah.

And treat yourself like a human because like I always say I remember when I was teaching kids,

I always said,

Like,

You're just a little person.

You know,

You're just a little human.

You're just a little human doing the best that you can.

And like there's no reason to to get mad because you wouldn't talk that way to your friend.

You wouldn't talk that way to your children.

So why are you talking that way to yourself?

Right.

It's not like you would never encourage somebody else by telling them like what a piece of crap they are.

So why do you do it to yourselves?

Like it's ridiculous.

OK,

We've got decide and recognize when you're in that cycle and recognize why you want to move out of that cycle.

And what's yes.

So step two is basically just about like your relationship with yourself and,

You know,

Establish a good one.

Be mindful.

Step three is actually like very specific and easy to implement habits that you can change and settings that you can change on your phone.

For example,

You can look at the digital balance.

You can see how much time you spend on your phone just to get an idea.

You might be surprised.

I was definitely surprised.

Then there you can you can set a reminder on Instagram and Facebook to remind you after a certain amount of time that in the day that you spend on that app,

Be like,

Hey,

You've spent 30 minutes on Facebook.

And,

You know,

You get that reminder where you're interrupted,

You're you're scrolling is interrupted and you can decide again,

Like,

Oh,

OK,

Do I want to continue or not?

And then you choose not to.

Then you can set your your display to display more yellow tones.

Yes.

I love the day.

Yeah,

Because the blue light influences are serotonin levels.

Is it serotonin?

Melatonin.

Melatonin.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And it prevents us from getting getting asleep,

Falling asleep.

So that's one of the things that you can do.

And then you can also at least my phone has this option to turn on a gray screen at like at a certain hour.

For example,

At 9 p.

M.

,

Your screen turns gray if you set it to.

And what this does is it makes it less interesting to be on the phone.

So it you know,

You know,

When you see when you see that you have a call or you have a message and then there's that red.

Red dots.

Yeah.

Or you hear the ping or whatever.

Well,

Anyway,

That that red dot is actually.

The way that we're programmed to like since forever since humans exist to kind of react to that and be aware of that and to want to check.

So is that dopamine dopamine hit hits that awaits us when we open the app that has that red red circle with the number,

The notification.

So when that's gray,

It's really not that appealing to our brains.

And when you when you look at pictures and they're all black and white,

It's like,

Oh,

OK,

It's not not it's not as fun.

And you you actually don't want to spend more time on it.

So there are these hacks.

And then I recommend not keeping your phone in the bedroom at all,

Especially not charging it there.

And also to keep it somewhere where you cannot like where it's not right in your face when you wake up,

Because when we wake up,

Our brains operate in what's called alpha waves,

Which is this state of awareness.

But we're also really open to being programmed and really.

Suggestible.

Oh,

I don't know.

Yes,

Acceptable to whatever.

And if you open your phone and your email and everything,

I mean,

We've all heard this,

But there's actual science behind it.

And you basically prepare yourself to have a shitty day.

And also to lose focus because you're not intentional,

You know,

Like like I said before,

You're just kind of like,

Oh,

You know,

Whatever wants to come into my experience,

You know,

You can come.

And instead,

Just try to think about what if you're using your phone in the morning,

Try to think about what you can do instead that will support you.

Yeah,

Because we can just take away something we need to replace it with something better.

So think about what rituals would actually support you in the morning.

And please try to spend.

Hello.

Hi,

I can hear you.

You're good.

Sorry.

Sorry,

I just my screen was was out.

Sorry.

Try to spend at least an hour,

You know,

Living.

Yeah,

Well,

It's a day that you're most connected to to yourself and that you're most connected for those of us who are interested and,

You know,

Open to this idea,

But it's also the time of day that you're most able to connect to like your guides to connect to yourself to get guidance and wisdom that has nothing to do with like some influencer selling you the latest lipstick.

I mean,

Exactly.

That's,

Um,

Yeah,

It's just it's the time of day that is most powerful for you to connect with yourself first.

And so I totally totally totally support what you're saying and I tried to implement it in my,

In my own life.

The only other thing I would say is that for those people who really are struggling or having trouble with their phone,

Like if you're if you're in like a very sort of addictive relationship with your phone,

Maybe it's not necessarily about cutting it off cold turkey if you really because most people when they when they do that,

They're doing like a detox,

And they're doing a detox that's supervised and supported by somebody else.

Like,

When do you hear about people going to rehab and just being like left alone in a room to like deal with their demons on their own?

They're not.

They're being followed by professionals,

People who are helping.

So you're in the throes of,

You know,

This kind of like,

Tech or social media or whatever addiction,

It's about you kind of mentioned it,

But it's about crowding.

So kind of like it's like that's a diet term where you like add more good stuff.

So there's less bad,

Like using that kind of technique to like make it so it's a little bit easier.

You start adding more rituals and more routine and more sacred space into your morning and start crowding out the use of tech to begin at least if it's if going cold turkey is something that's not totally possible.

Yeah,

And I don't recommend going cold cold turkey because we can't like we're so we actually use our phones so much,

You know,

Like if you want to get from A to B,

You probably use navigation app or something.

But,

You know,

There's so many things we use phone calls and everything.

So it's not like drugs or alcohol or even like sugar or something that you can just not keep in your house and then not be tempted.

It's not something that's going to be a part of our lives,

Unless we want to really like change the way we live in a very extreme way.

Yes,

That's,

That's why I was at the beginning like I want to be able to have the Facebook app on my phone and not be on it all the time,

You know,

I want that freedom and that takes that takes some self discipline and I don't really like the word self discipline because I think it implies that we can do so much with willpower.

We have like,

I don't know if you're if you agree,

But we have this,

I think we have this like fantasy idea that willpower is super strong and we can do anything with it.

We can't.

Things are literally showing the opposite now that you have like a willpower limit and every time you exert willpower,

You basically like empty your tank and then you have to like kind of sleep or like whatever to recharge it in order to get it.

It's like literally like a willpower battery again every time you use willpower you like use a little bit of it.

Absolutely.

No.

Yeah,

And every time you resist looking at your phone after it beeped,

You know,

You spend a little willpower so I think like that's why self care is really important in terms of like getting enough sleep and food and everything,

Because it will actually keep you on higher levels willpower,

But also to realize that willpower is not the end and the beginning of this.

You know,

There's there like we talked before,

Like there are all these ways that that our brains are programmed to be addicted to this.

So I think we can cut ourselves some slack and just say like,

Okay,

So this is kind of the stacks are against me.

So what can I do to undo that programming?

And that's why I suggest these,

The settings,

Changing the settings on your phone and things like that.

And also one thing I forgot to mention is,

If you can try to have,

Not if you can,

But just decide and do it.

Everyone can have some kind of mindfulness practice or some kind of meditation,

Especially if it's something that helps you with focus and being present in the present moment.

Because that will actually be the thing that saves you from having to wake up after half an hour of scrolling,

But actually to not even go into it.

And what I do now,

For example,

Is I decide to spend 10 minutes on Facebook and I go on Facebook and I look at what I want to see and then I go,

I close the app.

So it's deliberate.

It's not like,

And when,

Of course I have bad days and sometimes I will still,

You know,

I will not want to face something in my life and I'll be depleted and whatever.

And I'll spend time on Instagram or whatever.

But then,

You know,

I remember and I forgive myself quickly and I just put it away and ask myself,

What do I need now?

And,

Okay,

That's what I need.

And so it's not,

It's not a thing about like,

Please,

Dear fellow perfectionists,

Please don't beat yourself up.

Like this is,

This is a marathon.

It's not like a quick sprint because there will be good days and there will be bad days and just forgive yourself for the bad ones and just keep going.

You're just a little human.

Forgive me.

Yeah.

You're just a little human,

Doing the best you can.

Exactly.

So before I ask you our last question,

I would love for you to just recap your steps one more time really quickly.

Okay.

So make a decision,

A conscious decision for what you want in your life.

Yes.

Second step,

Build your relationship with yourself.

Realize that your phone usage is a reflection of your relationship with yourself and be kind to yourself.

Ask yourself what you need when you find yourself scrolling.

And the third step is implement these very easy changes in your settings and in the way you use your phone,

For example,

Where you put it.

Because people are lazy,

Take advantage of the fact that we're a lazy species.

And if you can put it somewhere,

I don't know,

Like three meters away so that you don't want to get up,

Pick it up,

You know.

Those are,

Those are the steps and be kind to yourself above all.

Always be kind to yourself.

That's like rule number one in life,

Not about tech usage.

It's just like rule number one,

Be kind to yourself,

Be kind to others,

Love yourself,

Love others.

I love that.

So one of my,

One of my last questions for you is kind of tying into the title of this podcast.

So when I created this podcast,

When I created my company,

Actually,

To begin with,

I wanted it to be called Wild Free Will.

And then I realized that that didn't necessarily make good sense and that I should change it to my name,

But I still wanted to be a good person.

I wanted to keep it in my name,

But I still means so much to me.

I wanted to keep it.

And so I want to ask all my interviewees.

Yes,

Interviewees.

What does living wild free well mean to you?

That's a really difficult question,

Actually.

I had to give it some thought and I can't say that I have like the perfect answer.

But I don't know if you've been listening to or reading Brené Brown's work,

But she talks.

I don't read her books,

But I've listened to her books.

She talks about belonging and the true belonging is belonging to herself.

Yeah.

That's something that like,

Even if nobody agrees,

Even if like the whole world rejects you,

But you feel that this is the way you are wired and that's what you want,

That you belong to yourself and that's what matters.

So for me,

I think that's been something that I've been thinking about a lot lately.

And just like,

What do I really want?

Because I'm a total people pleaser.

I mean,

I'm in recovery,

But like I'm so used to,

You know,

Meeting other people's expectations of me and just like inventing expectations of me and fulfilling them.

And really it's about like living wild,

Free and well.

It's about having the guts to actually like discover what it is that you want.

And then follow that even if it means standing alone.

Oh,

I freaking love it.

Yes.

And it's so scary.

Sometimes it's so scary.

Like,

You know,

I make some life decisions that nobody,

Except for maybe my boyfriend understands and it's like,

Yeah,

I have to do this because I'm,

I decided,

I made a choice probably around a year or two years ago that I'm going all in,

In this lifetime.

You know,

Like I want to be free.

I want to,

You know,

Do what my soul came here to do.

And that is,

That's a decision that's brought up some shit for me because you know,

You have to clean up so much to actually get to that place.

Yeah.

There's a meme about that too,

Where it's like what everybody thinks personal growth and it looks like,

And like what it actually is.

And like one is like rainbows and like somebody running through a field and the other one is like a girl with like mascara running down her face.

Or running down her face.

We all look happy and we all look like we're like loving life.

And I swear 90% of the time we are obviously because then there's like the dirty work that you don't see where you're like really like literally holding your own shit in your hand.

You're like,

Okay,

What do I do with this?

Is this something that I want to keep?

What if this is serving me and what if this isn't?

And it's yeah.

Yeah.

And it's so like those moments are so bad.

And then I know that even if I tell people like on my podcast or whenever,

If I write a book about it and if I say it was really hard,

You know,

I experienced this and I was desperate and I didn't know what to do.

And I'm like,

I was being torn apart and whatever.

The people will be like,

Yeah,

You know,

Because you can't really,

You can't really translate that experience.

I think we all have those experiences.

And if you want to live a life true to yourself,

Like really like answer those calls.

Like I recently had to admit to myself that one of my desires in this life is to actually be in a Hollywood movie,

Which is so random.

Yeah.

Because I had to kind of unpack that like I had to stop seeing myself as a life coach,

A personal growth and be like,

Okay,

So what are,

What other aspects of me are there and what do I want to experience in this life?

And I was like,

I want,

I've always wanted to be an actress,

But not like in some like shitty little show or commercial or something.

I want to be in a big Hollywood movie,

Like an epic one,

You know?

And I,

And I said that out loud and I,

I feel embarrassed about it,

But I also feel like,

Yeah,

I'm definitely going to do that someday.

I just love that.

But that comes back,

I think full circle to what we were talking about at the beginning about this idea of like life coach versus whatever,

But we're people,

We are people,

Society for whatever reason feels this need to like pigeon hole us and put us like,

We become our titles and no,

No,

No.

And I love that.

I love that you are like actively refuting that.

I love that you're saying like,

Okay,

I work as a life coach.

Maybe let's find another title because I agree.

I don't like it either.

Or like I do this,

But like I am a person and I can be or do or have whatever the fuck I want.

And it doesn't have to fit into this tiny little box.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's,

It's,

It's,

It's admitting to yourself like,

Oh,

This is what this is what I want.

Like what?

Because,

Because we have irrational wants in wishes and,

And it's not like,

I can't want what you want,

But I,

I can't not want what I want,

You know?

And it's admitting that to yourself and actually going after it or,

Or just putting it out there and waiting for it to manifest or whatever.

But yeah,

That's,

That's what living wild free well means to me.

I love that answer.

I really do.

That was amazing.

Thank you.

Just to finish up,

Where can our listeners find you?

Okay.

So I'm,

I've recently opened an Instagram account where I,

Where I'm posting in English.

Yay!

So I'm on Instagram.

I don't have a website in English yet,

So they can find me at Sanda.

It's spelled without the arts.

Sanda S A N D A S H K O R O.

Sandashkoro.

All right.

Yes.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for this.

This was wonderful.

I really,

Really,

Really enjoyed my time and I'm so grateful for all the things that you said.

And I'm so grateful for how this conversation unfolded because I feel like it ended up being about so much more than mindful tech.

And I mean,

Not that that's not important because it's super important.

It's vital,

I said,

But so is that willingness to be open to connecting to your guides and that willingness to be open to connecting to yourself and to your higher power and just all of it.

Like this episode was about connection,

I think.

And that was beautiful.

So beautiful.

I just,

I can't thank you enough for being here and for sharing your time and your wisdom with us.

And I just,

Yes,

Thank you.

Love it.

Thank you so much.

I really enjoyed it.

And just,

I'm just so happy to be able to express this and share this with as many people as possible.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So we'll talk again soon then.

Thanks for coming and being on the podcast.

It's just been an honor.

And for me,

Thank you.

Bye.

Bye.