The Power Of Both/And Thinking With Dr. Marianne Lewis

How can you step out of either or thinking and into both and thinking?

That's what we're going to explore today with Dr.

Marianne Lewis on Your Life in Process.

Welcome back.

I am really excited to share this episode with you.

It is one of my favorites of this season and I've been thinking about it in so many different domains of my life.

How we can step out of either or thinking into both and thinking.

And part of that is entering the paradox of living.

Paradoxes are a natural part of our life.

Things like how do I take care of myself and also take care of my two needy children?

How do I do meaningful work but then also just have fun and let loose sometimes?

How can you give your partner what they want while also maintaining your own self-respect?

Dr.

Marianne Lewis is the Dean of the University of Cincinnati's Linder College of Business.

She's renowned for her research on organizational paradoxes surrounding innovation and leadership.

Her latest book,

Both and Thinking,

Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems,

Co-authored with Wendy Smith,

Is published by Harvard Business Review.

And Dr.

Lewis has been recognized among the world's most cited researchers in her field and received the Decade Award from the Academy of Management Review.

Her work also appears in media outlets such as Harvard Business Review,

Fast Company,

Newsweek,

And Market Watch.

I found her on NPR when I was listening to an interview about both and thinking.

So in this episode,

We're going to explore what is a paradox,

The three elements of a paradox,

Some of the steps that you can use to enter a paradox,

How you can use paradoxes to actually grow your career,

Your business,

Your relationships.

We also talk about something called the S-curve,

Which is an S-curve of achievement,

How to innovate and not get stale when you start to become really successful at something.

I just adored Marianne Lewis.

I love how bright and fast-paced and open she is.

I think you will enjoy this as well.

At the end of this interview,

I will highlight some of the key practices from our conversation.

There's so much packed in there.

So it'll be helpful to have that bullet point list that you can try out in your life.

And just a reminder that if you haven't yet,

You can become a member of More Life in Process.

And when you do,

You get extra meditations from me.

So I'm offering a meditation every week at Yoga Soup.

I hope you join me online and in person.

And if you can't,

You can always join those meditations on replay through More Life in Process.

This week's meditation was all about cognitive diffusion and thoughts.

So it fits really well.

I try and make the meditations fit with whatever I'm doing on the podcast.

And you get a little bit of a preview about what's coming up next.

And it's just another way to practice what you're learning here at home.

I have some exciting news for those of you that want to join me in Costa Rica at Blue Spirit.

We have two openings that just opened up.

People's lives change and they need to make adjustments.

And that is good news for you because now there is an opening for you to come April 15th to 22nd.

Blue Spirit Costa Rica.

You can learn more at drdiannahill.

Com.

How exciting to talk with you.

This is a show that's generally about living well.

And I practice something called ACT.

So we talk a lot about psychological flexibility,

Which is an evidence-based approach to being more cognitively flexible,

More behaviorally flexible,

Knowing what your values are and pursuing those.

And when I learned about your book,

Both & Thinking,

It was such a perfect match for what we're doing in the clinical psychology realm.

And you're doing it with organizations.

So I'm super excited to talk with you about your work and the research you've done with organizations,

But also just this concept in general.

And hopefully we can apply paradoxes all over the place.

And I've been seeing them everywhere recently since reading your book.

And it's super helpful to have this mindset.

So welcome.

Well,

Thank you.

So glad to have you.

It's such a pleasure.

Let's start with paradoxes.

What are they?

Because you define them in a certain way.

And then we can talk about how you navigate them,

Not necessarily get rid of them,

But enter into them in a flexible way so that you can pursue solutions.

What is a paradox?

I'm so glad that you start there.

Most people don't because they get a little,

I think they find paradox just even as a term daunting.

It feels very philosophical or mystical.

I mean,

When Wendy Smith,

My co-author and I really started focusing on paradox,

We gravitated towards,

Think yin-yang,

If you can kind of picture that in your mind,

Right?

The black and white halves creating a hole.

As you move more into the depths of one,

You actually see a kernel of the next and it brings you around.

So there are really three elements to a paradox.

There is contradiction,

Which is that tension,

Right?

That you can feel this question in your mind of,

But this requires me to do two opposing efforts or two competing demands.

They are also interdependent.

There is a link between them such that actually the challenges of one are the positives of the other and vice versa,

Which is why you need the hole.

And then the third element is they're persistent.

They don't go away.

So we could pull out attention like,

Do I focus on myself or others?

Well,

We need both in our lives,

Right?

We need self-care and we need love and intimacy and they do require different elements.

And we could make a decision today about where we put our time and energy,

But we'll make it again tomorrow or whenever it comes up again.

Yes,

They're everywhere.

Where I actually first learned about paradoxes was in something called dialectical behavior therapy.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

So that was my very early training.

And I actually had the opportunity to train with Marsha Linehan a bit and she was a paradox in herself.

So I had a memory.

I was working with someone named Deborah Safer at the time and she got to bring a graduate student with her to these research groups.

And I went to Seattle and it was this intense research meeting with Marsha Linehan and head to the table,

Figuring out their protocols,

Everything by day.

And then at night,

Everyone went to Marsha Linehan's house and they would dance and play music on the piano and have,

And it was this paradox of how do you hold both,

Right?

You're working with people that want to progress a research idea,

But you're also being playful and dancing and the movement between both can coexist.

So paradoxes can exist in our work,

It can exist in our parenting,

All sorts of things.

And in your book,

You talk about four specific types of paradox.

You sort of categorize them.

So what are those?

So we talk about four that we've seen.

And as you know,

Our research really began at the organizational level.

Like we were talking with big businesses,

Big and small,

And then they come to the individual,

But I see them,

We see the big four in all of the areas.

So the first we note is paradoxes of performing.

So these tend to be about what is success?

And we can have very opposing views of what success means.

Is it about efficiency or innovation?

Is it about profits or social responsibility?

And clearly it's about all of these things,

But it's our tug of war between different stakeholders,

Different demands on our time,

And back to performance and what is success.

The second is we call paradoxes of organizing.

So once you decide what it is you're aiming at,

You have to decide,

Well,

How do I divide resources,

Time,

Energy?

Is it more centralized,

Decentralized?

Is it more autonomous and empowered versus controlled?

And there are times that you need both of those.

So again,

Real connections there.

The third is we call paradoxes of belonging.

This goes,

I share before one we hear all the time is self and other,

But belonging comes into our memberships,

Right?

As soon as we define what we're in,

We also define who's out,

Right?

And we have so many roles and identities we play in our lives.

And so this comes back to the complexity of ourselves and our memberships,

Paradoxes of belonging.

And then the final is paradoxes of learning.

That as we strive to learn,

In many ways we're building from the old to the new,

But we're also destroying the old with the new.

And this short-term,

Long-term really come into effect in that fourth.

But as you noted,

You start to see them everywhere.

Those four are very much linked.

Like one that we hear often,

And I'm grateful,

Increasingly in organizations is these tensions between financial versus social responsibilities.

Yes,

Not or.

Yes,

Okay.

And then you get into how.

So,

You go into the organizing.

We can look at structure and leadership and there are different ways to manage that.

We can go into our identities,

Both as an organization,

As leaders,

And as customers even that are involved,

And then into learning.

How are we building from maybe mistakes and successes in the past,

Either social and financial.

But I say this because we see these as knotted.

So,

We can follow this thread and start to work through one tension and feel those paradoxical pulls,

And it'll pull us into another realm.

And rather than being overwhelmed,

Start to realize this is natural.

This is part of living a more nuanced whole life,

But also being more adaptable to manage that.

Because if we assume it's black and white in any of those realms,

We've limited ourselves and often paralyzed ourselves in that process.

And we have to lose parts of ourselves.

So,

Everything,

If we look at something like identities,

That we have many different identities and many different contexts that those identities show up in something like intersectionality is a both and experience,

Right?

I am both this and I am this.

And if you try and put me in one of those boxes,

I lose a part of me.

So,

It feels really important in conversations about race and conversations about our identities and roles as humans that are much more paradoxical.

So,

I love that you shift our mindset from either or to both and,

And that that's one of the sort of foundations of entering a paradox is starting to see both and.

And I've been thinking about that even in the realm of something like couples.

So,

I work,

I'm going to always lean towards counseling examples,

Right?

So,

But couples counseling is a perfect one.

And when I was trained early on in couples counseling,

There was a researcher,

Neil Jacobson,

The late Neil Jacobson that talked about the paradox of acceptance and change in couples therapy.

And that there was these,

You know,

Tensions that would show up between couples.

They would be the tension of someone that's more conventional and someone that's less conventional,

Someone that wants more control versus autonomy,

Someone that wants more closeness versus distance.

And that that shows up within a couple or within an organization or within a friendship.

And you can't choose one or the other.

You have to choose both in some way.

And it's not just about compromise,

It's about something more.

So,

How do you work with something like that,

That when you're in a paradox to shift into a both and thinking to,

To create a different type of solution?

Well,

I'd love to share some examples from what we're doing and then compare them to some of what you do with counseling,

Because I mean,

There are going to be so many parallels.

Yeah.

Right.

So,

For example,

We often think about kind of three key steps.

The first is a reframing step,

Is that we'll find when we're working with organizations,

So I'll go back to this social and financial example as one,

Is that we so often start our question as a dilemma.

And by posing a well,

But do we focus on our financial or social,

We've immediately limited ourselves,

One,

Is it really only two?

Absolutely not.

And we're starting to feel that tug of war.

So,

The first point to us is a reframing around,

And it sounds like a simple words,

But it's more how do you dig into the assumptions behind the question,

How,

How would I accommodate our financial and our social responsibilities?

Or we've heard other people reframe that particular one,

How would I achieve our financial responsibilities through greater social responsibility?

Right?

That was one that we use in the book quite a bit,

Because Paul Pullman used that at Unilever when he was turning around,

Unilever,

Right?

So,

We could have,

But you could also,

If you were in a nonprofit,

We work with social enterprises,

We've heard the flip.

People say,

How do I achieve our social mission through greater financial responsibility and success?

Right?

Different questions.

That's the first step.

The second,

We talk about separating and connecting.

We really do encourage people,

Pull them apart,

Dissect,

Unpack both elements.

And sometimes,

By the way,

There'll be three,

Right?

That's a different story.

But when we talk about two,

Unpack why they add value,

Right?

You just talked about,

You know,

A couple that might be,

I'm trying to think of what you just used,

Like,

Right?

One wants distance,

The other wants closeness.

Okay,

Closeness versus distance.

Okay,

Really unpack what is the benefit of closeness?

What are the benefits of distance?

And then deepen it further and ask,

And what are the limitations,

If that is all you focus on?

Because by doing that sort of mapping,

And Barry Johnson does something with polarity management,

I don't know if you've ever seen this.

One of the values of doing a map like this is you start to see,

Oh,

Look at that.

The downsides of closeness are actually managed by the benefits of distance,

And vice versa.

So,

You see this almost infinity loop.

So,

We've separated them,

But in separating them,

We've helped connect and realize you need the aha moments of,

Boy,

We really do need both of those.

So,

Some of the work that we do is very therapeutic with leaders and organizations and or teams because it's a working through process,

Right?

As we unpack this,

Let's really play it out.

You're very good at the distance piece.

I want you to be the one leading the discussion on the value of closeness,

Right?

And then flip it because that leads to that final piece to us,

Which is,

Okay,

As you start to see that interdependence,

Let's change what we want the outcome to be because the outcome isn't like a dilemma.

What's the choice?

Closeness or distance?

No,

No,

No,

Right?

We think about either a creative integration or consistent inconsistencies.

So,

Here's what I mean by that.

One outcome could look like creative integration or think a mule,

Right?

So,

A mule is what people often think with both hands,

Thinking,

Ah,

It's a win-win,

Right?

Smarter than a donkey,

Stronger than a horse,

Right?

But a mule is a one-off.

You could find a really cool way in a moment to have opportunities for both distance and closeness.

But consistent inconsistency is what we see much more often.

And think of tightrope walking.

It's we're making a decision in the moment.

So,

It is actually there is either or in both and because we need some guardrails so we don't fall too far to one side.

We don't want to become a recluse or become overly intimate with everybody,

Right?

So,

Where are our boundaries?

But in the moment,

I might need to compartmentalize,

I need some distance.

I need your benefit there,

Right?

Or in a moment,

I need to actually build some psychological safety.

We need to foster greater intimacy.

And how do we start with tightrope walkers looking ahead,

Thinking of what they want in the long term and making these micro shifts along the way?

So,

Change the question,

The separating connect and rethink the outcomes as this kind of mule versus tightrope walker.

And we'd really try to build some patterns and practices around that.

Yeah.

Well,

So,

I love those three practices.

I love the second one in particular because one of the traps that many of us get into is writing pros and cons lists.

And it makes me kind of.

.

.

And stopping there.

And stopping there.

It makes me so frustrated because it's as if I could pile up all the pros of working from home and then pile up all the cons of working from home and then decide which is better.

And it's both and,

Right?

And that there is maybe we need to make a third column to that pros and cons list,

Which is a different kind of column,

Which is,

Yes,

You separate the pros and cons out,

But then you look at what are the connections between the pros and cons and what's a more creative dialectic?

What's a solution that's bigger in each of these two.

Which is where the dialectical comes in,

Right?

Is we're all really good at doing the pro-con list.

That's just a piece.

We take that as a means to an end,

Which is that's the problem.

No,

No.

It's now what do we do with it and how do we build that dialectical ebb and flow to value both sides?

Yeah.

So my son just turned 10 this week.

And on the night of his ninth,

His birthday Eve,

When he's nine years old,

He calls me into the room and he is just sobbing,

Sobbing,

Sobbing,

Sobbing.

And I go in and he says,

Mom,

I don't want to turn 10 because it means it means I'm growing up.

Right.

And then earlier that day,

All he wanted was independence.

Let me,

You know,

Let me,

Let me do my thing.

I want to cook my eggs in the kitchen.

Right.

So our children are actually quite good at holding paradoxes.

They can,

They can coexist.

It makes complete sense.

I don't want to grow up.

And of course I want to grow up and they,

They can sit in that.

It's,

There's something that happens,

I think,

As we become adults where we're forced to choose.

We're forced to be like,

Well,

You are.

And what I said to him is absolutely.

I still have a 10 year old inside of me and she comes out in lots of different ways.

And I still need my mom.

And sometimes I just want my mom to come over and make me soup.

And then there's also a part of me that is so independent and loves being on my own and tackling the world.

And those can coexist.

Those can both be with inside of you and can show up in different ways and they can help each other out.

You know,

Have you by chance ever read,

Um,

Uh,

Kirk Schneider's,

The paradoxical self?

No.

Because you,

You,

Your son's example just literally was a beautiful example of what he writes because Schneider talks,

Basically turns to Kierkegaard.

Yes.

He used kind of an existential view of the psyche and says,

Our,

Our greatest paradox,

Internal paradoxes between independence and dependence.

And as children growing up,

You see this almost violently sometimes between this,

I love you,

Mommy.

And leave me alone.

Right.

And,

And as we get older,

They become more hidden,

But it's,

It's continuing in everything we do.

Tell me what to do.

Don't tell me what to do.

Right.

And,

And we can feel that,

But you would love this book because I remember when I found it realizing,

Because I was studying management and now I'm starting,

Was starting to get into psychology and sociology and mysticism and philosophy.

And Schneider pulls together so many pieces around the psyche of the self,

But it is literally what you just described with your 10 year old feeling that.

And you see it so,

So,

So much more clearly in a child because they will vocalize,

Right,

Exactly what they're feeling.

Right.

And we feel this,

This,

Uh,

Urgency to fix it or to avoid it,

Right.

Rather than to,

To sit in it and be,

This is it.

This is the paradox of being human.

There's a part of us that doesn't want to grow old.

And the part of us that wants to get there.

So we're,

We're,

We are,

We are holding both.

Uh,

And I love that about your,

Your whole,

Your whole book goes through just examples after examples of the ruts that people get into when they don't enter into the paradox,

They try and fix it.

And then the expansion that can happen.

And one of the examples that I loved was the example of Lego,

Because I have,

I've been in and out of Lego in my life for many years with two boys.

And what was actually interesting to me is I was in Barnes and Noble over the holidays and we're,

We're so over Lego.

I was so grateful to have Lego be done in my life and we're in Barnes and Noble and behind the counter was this cool Lego set of the friends,

Uh,

That,

You know,

The TV show friends.

And I was like,

That's so cool.

I want to get that Lego set.

And then there was a Lego set of,

Uh,

Um,

Electric guitar.

And my partner was like,

Ooh,

I want that Lego set.

It's like,

What is Lego doing?

That's now has me,

A parent who is so sick of Lego wanting to buy their a hundred dollar Lego set.

They're doing something that's innovative and super cool.

Tell us a little bit about how they use this both end thinking to get over the paradox of innovation and change.

I love Lego on so many levels,

Right.

And as a parent as well.

Um,

But I started working with Lego,

Um,

About 15 years ago and,

And is when we were working with them and they were coming out of a real downward spiral.

So I want to get to your,

Your question is really about how do they do it well,

But it actually starts with how they did it so poorly,

Right?

Because they were caught in a vicious downward spiral of either or,

And it happened when,

You know,

This is,

This is a company that was voted toy of the century in 2000.

I mean,

They had had almost a hundred years of year on year growth,

Spectacular.

And in that moment,

They had their first year of stagnant growth.

And the next year they lost money and it was this,

Oh my goodness.

And they started to look around and realized,

Wow,

We are really insular and,

Uh,

Controlling and conservative.

Okay.

We're kind of three big.

And they,

So they swung the pendulum.

So this is one of the vicious cycles we see is they swung it really hard.

And they said,

Let's be global instead of insular.

Let's be creative focused and let's be all about radical innovation.

And they did it perfectly,

But that's all they did.

And they lost the original.

And within a five year period,

They were on the verge of bankruptcy.

They had literally lost all quality control,

Cost control,

Sense of real,

Their core values.

And it was this aha moment that they stepped back and said,

Well,

Wait a minute.

We learned so much about the power of creativity in these past five years.

We also need to go back to our roots and not swing it so hard,

But build a both and around.

We care about the quality,

The costs,

All the pieces that make us who we are and the creativity,

The outreach.

So they built a model of their company that in some times they would completely separate.

They would build different groups that focused on different elements,

Right?

They got very good at the cost control.

They built,

Not surprisingly,

Super smart people that were managing analytics and accounting and the supply chain and the details to make sure things were going well.

And they kept their open innovation,

Their brilliant design centers in Italy and California and other places in the world.

But they also built a bar or a boundary around it,

Around a new mission that was to inspire and develop the builders of tomorrow.

And I think some people roll their eyes when they hear vision or mission statements,

But that is a powerful glue if it's a real boundary.

And if you think about that mission statement,

You can hear the old Lego in the builders and the notion of the brick,

But also the new and them realizing they have this higher purpose to inspire and develop.

And that leads you back to a Barnes and Noble and seeing how they're reaching out to adults and fans at different levels to say,

Here's another way you could grow and develop as a builder,

Right?

There's friends,

There's the guitar,

There's these.

But it took some glue.

So it wasn't Lego is everything to everybody,

Which is where they were getting.

And then it means nothing to no one to what do we care about most and how do we put our discipline as well as our creativity to work for Lego.

And now they're thriving.

They went through a hard part.

And wasn't there a time when Lego was stuck on certain colors and certain shape and like they were unwilling to move past red,

Yellow,

Green,

And whatever?

I love that question.

Yeah.

So you're going one step back.

In those hundred years where they're building this amazingly disciplined group,

It took one person to say no and five people to say yes.

And I think it was in the seventies,

They added the color green and it was their fifth color and it took seven years.

But in the binge years,

The 2000 to 2005,

They racked up and I can't remember the exact number,

Something like 187 colors.

I mean,

If you're thinking about,

Think about a box of Lego,

You have just made an incredibly complicated organization.

Yeah.

Seven years to add the fifth color,

Ridiculous.

187 colors or however many,

Also ridiculous.

So this was them ping-ponging between extremes and trying to find their space to say,

What is the sweet spot?

And it's not a spot,

Right?

It's more this dynamic balancing because there'll be times where they need to tighten the belts and be more focused on their controls and times where they're watching competition and saying,

Let's amp up the creativity,

But it's within boundaries so they don't go too far on either side.

Right.

So we can think about that macro Lego and then we can dial that down into more micro.

So example,

Physical activity,

People who are in exercise ruts,

They've been doing the same elliptical 30 minutes for 30 years.

And now they've lost their mojo.

And they've lost their mojo and they don't have any strength training in their routine.

I was actually just talking with my hairdresser yesterday and she's going on this,

She's in her 60s and she's going on this hiking trip through Hawaii.

And she was asking me about hiking sticks.

She's like,

What are your thoughts on hiking sticks?

So this is such a entering the paradox.

I won either or answer.

Are hiking sticks good or are hiking sticks bad?

And I was thinking about this.

I was like,

This is such a good opportunity to say both and because it's so great that she's hiking.

And actually when you hike over lots of varied terrains,

You're strengthening your ankles and you're preparing your body in certain ways that you won't fall as much when you're older because it's used to the variability of the surface.

So if you only use hiking poles,

You're going to miss out on that.

But if you are 65 years old and you're hiking,

You might want to have some hiking poles so you don't fall down and break your hip.

So I said both and.

I was like,

Bring them sometimes,

Have them in your backpack,

Use them and don't use them.

And then that can be a solution for you to strengthen your body and your mobility and do something new and different,

But not go into have that boundary to not go into the place of you getting injured.

This is the type of mindset from your both and thinking that's so helpful because you can answer pretty much anyone's question.

Well,

I'm so glad that you found it helpful.

And I want to call it something you just said because we've had people say to us,

Well,

Wait a minute,

If you're saying both and is better than either or,

Haven't you just made it an either or?

But it's actually both because even the way you just explained the walking sticks,

In the moment,

You often have to make it an either or.

Do I pick them up today?

But that's not the same as your broader question of,

You're not asking,

Don't,

You're not asking,

Do I always have,

You know,

People don't put the word always in,

But they've made it such a hard black and white.

You just completely changed your framing around walking sticks to let's think about the value of why you need them and why you don't.

And then you've built a bigger framework,

A both and framework.

And in the moment,

You probably are going to make some either or decisions.

Do I pick them up today?

Right.

That's okay.

Right.

Well,

This maps onto psychological flexibility,

Because with psychological flexibility,

It's the ability to respond to the present moment,

What's needed in this moment,

But have a flexible enough mindset to be able to have lots of different options in there and also do a lot of different types of perspectives.

Like you're building that repertoire.

Yeah,

That repertoire.

So it's what's needed in this moment and knowing that in the next moment,

It's going to change and it may be something totally different.

So I don't have to hold so tightly to this is who I am,

Or this is what I do.

And that gives us the flexibility to respond much more effectively in our life and be much more functional,

Actually.

So yes,

It's an interesting way of navigating all sorts,

All sorts of things from health behaviors to parenting,

To how you run your company.

I would love to talk about something else that you mentioned in your book that I just adored,

Which was the S curve.

And I kind of have had this,

I guess I just intuitively have done it in my career,

But it sounds like there's actually some research behind this,

Which is when you notice you're like,

Kind of like rising up in an expertise in something or your career or your business is doing really well,

That's actually the time when you want to pivot and get creative and be bold and do something different.

And more often than not,

People do as they get actually more rigid during that time and wait to the fall.

So describe that to us.

Like what is this S curve?

What's the research behind it?

And what should we be doing to stay flexible?

I love that you picked up on it because I truly think the S curve,

I mean,

I'm a theorist and I think nothing is more valuable than a simple,

Clear,

Well-evidenced theory.

And so if you can picture an S,

Right,

The beauty of the S curve is it's very clear.

You can always kind of keep it in your mind,

But the original research really started with new products and organizations,

Right?

So we could use the Lego as an example.

And then I'll flip it to the personal because that's what we've seen it.

Like Arthur Brooks just wrote Strength to Strength and uses the S curve on the personal,

Right?

So an S curve,

Basically the idea,

If you think about a brand new product,

Right?

We'll go back to Lego,

Right?

Lego has a new offering.

Very early when it's radical,

It starts slowly to perform very gradually.

You're putting a lot of money and time into it because you are educating people.

You're building,

I don't know,

The new factory for it.

You're training people from the sales floor to,

Right,

The users,

What it's going to do.

Then it starts to take off.

And when you see the S start to rise,

We think about it as the steep part.

People are getting excited.

Oh my gosh,

Everybody's seeing it everywhere.

I want it.

You've got it too.

Now you're really revving,

Right?

It takes far less resources to have a bigger jump in sales and profit in efficiencies because we're all getting better at how to do it.

But eventually,

And this is critical to the S curve,

It always,

Always,

Always flattens.

Always,

Right?

So if you think of products,

Why does it flatten?

Everybody has it already.

Competitors get in.

You can imagine how attractive it is when you're making money hand over fist and it's the cool place to be.

People want in too.

So technology changes.

Whatever the case might be,

It flattens.

So the challenge is when to start the next S curve,

When to start building the next product.

Research after research shows you start the next project when your first product is booming.

But that's the time that's hardest because people say,

If it's not broke,

Don't fix it.

Why would I?

But that's when you have morale and confidence and money and time.

Actually,

You have much more slack.

It's just psychologically,

Why would I do it now?

So instead,

People wait too long.

And the problem with waiting too long is now I don't have the energy.

I don't have the morale.

I don't have the confidence.

I don't have the resources,

And I'm desperate,

And it's really hard to innovate desperate.

We do the same thing personally,

Right?

We're on a high.

I call this,

Similar to the example with Lego,

One tension we see a lot of is performing versus learning,

Right?

Am I putting my head down?

I'm hitting the targets.

I'm leveraging what I'm doing now and getting better and better.

I'm riding my S curve.

Learning is looking for the next one.

It takes pulling your head up,

Looking around.

We wait too long.

We wait till the mojo's gone.

We wait till we're out of options.

It's so much harder to find the next job,

The next adventure at the low,

But we don't look for it enough in the high.

It seems like the secret to that is staying humble and curious because if you actually find,

When you're at that peak of the S curve,

If you think you got it all and that everything is going to stay the same,

And now you can just sit on your mountain and enjoy the goods to come,

You're somewhat delusional because everything is going to change.

And yes,

Everything that goes up will come down.

This is the basics of life.

But there's also,

For me,

It's just the inherent curiosity that makes me want to,

When things are expanding and growing,

I want to look out a window and see what else is out there and how can I shift and grow personally.

And I do think it's both though.

I think curiosity without humility.

Oh,

Yeah.

It could lead to complacency because you couldn't be curious within the rut that you're currently in.

I think some humility is what can push you to say,

I don't know what I don't know.

And I don't know when the good is going to end or something's going to shift.

So,

I need to be boundary spanning as well as just digging deeper into what I'm really good at now.

So,

I think it's that blend.

I love your point.

I think it also fits with your point about flexibility.

Flexibility is beautiful,

But the power of flexibility comes from learning through your flexing,

Right?

As you shift and adjust,

You're taking the time to reflect and say,

What worked better,

Worse in these different cases?

So,

Not only am I becoming more agile,

I'm building that repertoire as I do so.

Yeah.

Well,

Agility also can be a little bit problematic,

But just from a yoga practice perspective of being a yoga practitioner,

The folks that are too flexible actually can get into problems.

For example,

With yoga,

In a very sort of traditional yoga practice,

You're always balancing strength with flexibility.

So,

That's also the paradox,

Right?

That you want flexibility with strength.

You need the stability with the flexibility.

If you're too flexible,

You're going to be a noodle.

Yeah.

And you want some noodle-like qualities,

But you also want some tree-like qualities,

Some strength.

So,

That's often what I'm thinking about in terms of where is the,

Even with a couple or in a relationship or in your career,

Where are your roots?

What is your strength?

And then where are the places where you're expanding and growing and being flexible and you need to have both?

So,

It's interesting to think about this S-curve because on a personal level,

Where would you apply that?

How do you apply that personally?

Oh,

I mean,

I apply it in a few different ways.

So,

I mean,

I can think about it from a work setting.

Think about careers,

Right?

This is where Arthur Brooks is using the S-curve right now with strength to strength.

It's one thing to think about your career is what's my next job?

I mean,

Especially as we get older,

It could be a more powerful question is what's my next impact?

And how is this changing over time?

And while you're in the throes of a beautiful,

Positive experience,

Can I step back and think,

How can I take that opportunity and build something further and new?

Move more from maybe the doer to the teacher,

Right?

And how can I learn and live through that?

So that,

You know,

But I think I could take it further on the personal side,

Say into our relationships.

How do we make sure that we're,

I mean,

You know,

It's always a challenge.

You mentioned couples,

Right?

How do we think about our partnerships in ways that keeps them fresh and lively,

Maybe adding,

Let's do a new adventure,

Let's go somewhere new and recognizing back to the roots.

I love your tree.

I've got tree and noodle written down here,

Right?

And thinking about,

But also what's so stable and core to who we are as a couple?

How do we continue to deepen and build that strength in the S curve while looking for what might be our next,

It could be hobby together,

Adventure,

New experiences that continue to grow our relationship and our love and support for each other.

Well,

Vicious cycles and ruts can't describe couples any better.

I mean,

Those are,

That's the definition of a long-term relationship for many people.

And yes,

You have,

Maybe the tree,

Maybe we stick with one metaphor is the tree with deep roots,

With flexible branches,

Right?

So that it's both.

And in that metaphors are also great ways to enter paradoxes.

I completely agree.

It's a great way to talk about paradox.

But with couples,

It's so interesting that those same researchers,

Christensen and Neil Jacobson,

They used to do as part of their acceptance and change research and intervention,

Integrative couples therapy,

They would have couples complete this assessment with,

I think it was like 480 questions that was about what do you observe during the week?

What are you observing your partner doing?

And what are you doing as a couple?

And then they'd come in and break their answers.

And they would answer questions like taking a shower together or having sex,

Right?

When couples answered the question,

Taking a shower together,

There was only 70% agreement.

One person doesn't think we took a shower together this week.

The other person did.

In answering the question of did you have sex this week?

60% agreement.

One person didn't,

The other person did.

So if you can imagine,

Here's a couple sitting on your couch.

If you go into the disagreement of did you take a shower this week?

Your session's over,

Right?

Because you'll just be focusing on did we take a shower?

How are you defining shower?

But if you actually get to the underneath question of what is it that you enjoy about on this list?

What did you enjoy doing with your partner this week?

What energized you?

What depleted you?

Then you can actually start to go somewhere and look at the flexibility of those branches.

How can we incorporate more of these activities in your week rather than getting stuck in the rut of whether or not we did this or that?

But I love that because you changed the question from a binary to something much more open and interesting.

Absolutely.

And most couples are stuck in,

Because they're stuck in binary views of their relationship.

I want more of this and you're not giving it to me.

I want more of this and you're not giving it to me.

And they're not looking at the underneath.

Versus what do you enjoy most and how do we get more of that enjoyment?

How do we get more of that?

Yeah,

Exactly.

So that's interesting to bring this S-curve to your relationship.

I love that.

That's a great idea.

Another thing that you talk about in working with paradox is actually what some people would think is paradoxical is to put constraints on something,

Actually limit it.

And it made me think of when you have art classes and the teacher will say something like,

You can paint a self-portrait,

But you have to use glue and glitter.

That's it.

And then the creative things that come out of actually constraining people,

Limiting people.

Can you talk a little bit about that and how you use that with organization?

It is such a paradoxical concept.

And really it's about improvisation.

So improvisation,

And we've worked with,

Wendy in particular,

Has worked with the Second City.

If you think about the SNL group and improv in,

That's in comedy.

We can talk about improv in jazz,

But in both of those cases,

And in the cases we see it increasingly with organizations and other ways we can practice improv,

It's the idea that constraints foster creativity.

So I use something similar to the one you just used.

When I think about this with my students,

And I'm the Dean of the business school,

So I have the pleasure of seeing students quite a bit.

If I said to my students,

I want you to do a project on innovation and turn it in at the end of the semester,

I mean,

They will be paralyzed.

Right.

But if I said,

All right,

I want it to be,

And then I start to put some constraints around it,

Right?

What's the industry I want here?

I want to give you some length and some other,

I don't want to tell you how to do it,

But I want to put a box around it because within that box,

You can get so creative.

Right.

And it's how to play that.

So I'm going to go back to the Lego example because it's one of my favorite improvisation examples.

When they were trying to figure out,

Well,

How do we foster both creativity and profitability?

They realized they were losing money on most of the boxes of Legos.

And the reason is that a standard brick costs almost nothing.

I mean,

They circled the globe like seven times a year with a standard brick.

They produce them constantly.

So it's like 0.

00001%.

I mean,

I don't even know what it is.

It's so many zeros.

And then you have a specialty brick,

Right?

Think about what it could be just about anything.

It'd be a jewel or part of a Star Wars craft.

That is probably as much as a hundred times more expensive.

I know that.

I have a little tiny drawer with all those specialties.

They know it too.

They sort them out.

But they were losing money because they were making so many specialty bricks.

So the improvisation question was,

How many specialty bricks do you need to get the wow?

Okay.

So you get psychologists trying to figure that out,

Watching people play.

It's probably not going to surprise you.

It's not very many,

Right?

It's enough that you say,

Oh,

I've never seen that before.

It's not very many though.

And then they had the accountant say,

How many can we afford?

And actually that number was far greater than what the psychologist said that they need.

This became a simple Lego rule.

You can only have,

Let's say,

10% of a box being specialty.

It guaranteed them profitability.

But more importantly,

It made those designers say,

Oh my gosh,

I only have 10%.

What am I going to do?

And it spurred creativity because they would talk to other designers.

They would think about how to really make the most of what they had.

It was empowering,

Not paralyzing,

To have some constraints.

I don't think we often think about that in our own lives enough.

What are our guard rails?

How do we set them up in our relationships,

Our teams,

Our work lives?

There are so many places that actually some clear,

Sharp rails could help us be more creative and flexible between.

Yes,

Absolutely.

We can think about budgeting,

Right?

If you have only a certain amount of money,

You're going to be kind of creative about how you're going to use that money.

Or we could think about,

I think about the outfit that I wore today.

I was like wanting to wear some,

I have,

I'm only seen from the,

You know,

Up here,

I'm like,

Where's the one area I can get creative is my earrings.

There you go.

And so I try and put on interesting earrings every time I do one of these because it's a little expression of something,

Right?

So it actually helps us be more bold when we have constraints.

And when we don't have constraints,

It can be overwhelming in some way.

It's like,

Oh no,

I have to be creative with my shoes and my earrings and my,

My whatever.

But I love that.

And ultimately,

I'm interested in how people can be the full expression of who they are in the world while also and be creative,

But not like you've described,

Not be wrecking balls,

Because too much of that can destroy,

Yeah,

Can destroy things.

So I love the image of the infinity loop too.

Any other good tips for both and thinking that people could actually start to apply today to their lives to really do this mental shift and put it into action and see some of the benefits of both and thinking?

Well,

Maybe one I would add is just a mantra.

And it's,

It's a mantra that,

That I've followed,

I've followed for quite some time.

It came out of,

Uh,

Watts Lewick and some of the psychologists who were working with him in Stanford.

And it's,

The mantra is the problem is not the problem.

The problem is the way we think about the problem.

Because part of this,

These tools for us,

We found is how do we start shifting our mindset?

So we start problem solving sessions from the most personal dilemma to the biggest organizational challenge by really asking ourselves,

What is the problem?

And then questioning what we're seeing,

Because so much of where we end depends on where we start.

And that's about framing.

It,

It,

It's about moving away from that binary that gets us stuck in a rut from the start,

Rather than opens possibilities with some boundaries so that we know what we really want out of it.

And I think that that's powerful and it takes some practice because we live in tensions and dilemmas.

I mean,

We,

We face them constantly and our,

Do we see them as opportunities to feel empowered,

Continue to learn,

To change,

Or do we feel that they're challenges to beat our heads against?

I mean,

That's what we want this to feel like an opportunity.

Because I think when you hear the word tension,

At least me,

I mean,

I can feel it in my chest when I say the word,

But it's a double-edged sword.

Tensions hold so much opportunity for growth and learning and flexibility,

But it's how we approach them that matters.

And that's what we're encouraging with both Anne thinking.

Let's question our initial assumptions because where we start determines where we end.

Right.

So approaching attention as the possibility for something new to come out of it,

Something that you haven't thought of before.

So a solution that's sort of the impossible sort of the impossible solution that might be possible and that it's not about choosing one or the other or resolving or fixing or solving.

And that's the different kind of mindset that we can approach problems.

And maybe we even will redefine the word problem at some point.

Like there's,

There's kind of a loadedness to that.

Like this is a problem.

Right.

As opposed to,

Maybe we need to think of a different,

This is a,

Um,

It's a paradox,

Not a problem.

And,

And then if we think of it as a paradox and we start to have some,

Um,

Fond associations.

Oh,

I think we'd go a long way if we start.

Go a long way.

Yeah.

So change our problems to paradoxes and then enter the paradox and see that.

And embrace that.

Yeah.

Embrace it.

Yeah.

That's wonderful.

I love that concept.

And,

And certainly,

Uh,

We can go back in time and there's a little bit in your book about just the history of paradox.

You mentioned Yin-Yang,

But I,

You know,

Even just the fact that you are,

Um,

Posing a question makes me think about the Zen cones,

Which are paradoxes.

Like you,

You would go into a Zen teacher and they just offer you a paradox and you sit on it for hours on end and you don't resolve it.

But that,

That was actually a practice.

Like this is a skillset as to how to be with a cone,

How to be with a question and,

And become more comfortable with that.

And we say find some comfort in the discomfort.

I mean,

It is a practice in so many ways.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Okay.

Well,

Thank you so much.

You are a delight.

I loved your book.

I love all of your work and you really opened my mind to some different perspectives and appreciate your time.

Well,

I appreciate all you do.

Thank you for your work on the podcast and thank you for your examples today.

Always taking and enabling new learning for me as well.

I appreciate it.

Okay,

Great.

Wonderful.

So we talked all about paradoxes,

Paradoxes in our relationships,

Paradoxes in our personal life,

Paradoxes at work and innovation and companies.

Some of the highlights of the conversation were that paradoxes are not bad.

Actually,

That these tensions that we have hold so much opportunity for growth,

So much opportunity for learning.

And with your psychological flexibility skills that you are developing on this podcast,

You can apply those to a paradox as well.

We talked about how to enter a paradox with both and thinking.

And then we also talked about this S curve of achievement that when you are rising up in achievement,

That is actually the time to make a change and use your momentum to start the next thing.

Your first thing is booming.

It's a good time because you have more morale and money and confidence.

So where are you in your S curve right now?

Are you on the rise at your career,

Maybe in your parenting,

Maybe in your athletic performance?

Those are all times to enter the S curve and make a pivot.

And then finally,

We talked about using constraints to foster creativity and improvisation.

So constraining yourself can be things like if you are a journal writer,

You can start with a STEM statement from a poem.

Sometimes I'll do that.

I'll draw the first line of a poem.

And then write from there.

If you're making a new recipe,

Try and constrain yourself with just a few ingredients.

There's so many ways you can use constraints to foster creativity.

Okay,

So let's enter the paradox.

I'm going to give you your daily practice,

Which has to do with these three key steps in entering a paradox.

The first thing is when you have a tension or an apparent conflict that you are facing,

Change the question.

Take a moment to reframe your conflict from a dilemma of either or and ask yourself,

How can I accommodate both?

How can I achieve both?

Is there a possibility here that I could enter a dialectic?

And that dialectic is really the yin yang,

Which has a little bit of the black and the white and a little bit of the white in the black.

They are connected.

The second step in entering a paradox is to actually separate out the two different sides and then find connection between them.

So you want to unpack both elements and ask yourself,

Okay,

What does this side add in terms of value?

And then ask yourself,

What is the other side add in terms of value?

And how can the benefits of one help out the limitations of the other?

By separating and connecting,

You can find that aha moment that,

Yes,

I need both.

How can I create both and with this?

And then finally,

Rethink your outcome.

Change the outcome to either a creative integration,

Which is the win-win,

Or to balance beaming,

That consistent inconsistency moving from one side to the other.

So change the question,

Separate and connect,

Rethink the outcomes.

That is your daily practice.

And if you are a member of More Life in the Process and don't want to write down all the notes of what I just said,

They will be in the PDF for this podcast because there's a lot packed in.

Okay,

Many blessings.

Have a wonderful week.

Enjoy the paradox and I'll see you here next week.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Your Life in Process.

When you enter your life in process,

When you become psychologically flexible,

You become free.

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody,

Please leave a review over at podchaser.

Com.

And if you have any questions,

You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776,

Or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at yourlifeinprocess.

Com.

I want to thank my team,

Craig,

Ashley Hyatt,

And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell and Branch for his original music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.