Ānāpānasati With Heart & Parts Work With Laura G & Willie K

Holiness,

Welcome.

This is Josh of Integrating Presence.

And today I have Willie and Laura with me and it's Laura Geller and Willie Kunert.

So,

Hey guys,

What's going on?

Hello,

I'm doing well.

How are you?

I'm doing good.

I'm happy to talk to you guys cause we practice together or have practiced together,

Right?

In meditation groups.

So this is a little bit different and we were talking before the show and I totally even forgot to remind us all that this is the Anapanasati series,

Right?

So that's what we'll like to be getting in the most due today.

But I have a kind of a habit of liking to cover all kinds of different topics and angles.

So it won't be the only thing,

I guess.

So for those who don't know,

Who are you guys and what kind of work do you do?

You can go together.

You can go individually first and then together or whatever.

So,

Yeah.

You can talk,

Laura.

Yeah,

So like you said,

Josh,

We met in various meditation communities,

A couple of different,

The kind of in the Palk lineage teachers,

Teachers that we've been working with in the past few years outside of that.

So that takes up a good chunk of my time,

I would say in terms of hours in the week,

Many hours spent.

Just in meditation of various kinds.

But then for professionally,

I work as a counselor therapist,

Licensed social worker and really specialize in internal family systems and parts work on that side of things.

Yeah,

Those are kind of main snapshots.

Yeah,

And I'm Willie.

Yeah,

Laura and I met at Oberlin College 20 years ago or maybe not quite that long ago,

Almost that long ago.

And had been practicing meditation since shortly after we met,

Kind of as sophomores,

Juniors in college.

Got especially interested in Buddhism a few years after that.

Got a real privilege to spend several months in Southeast Asia to kind of see Buddhism,

More where it came from versus the ways that we had so far been exposed to it in the United States and got to spend time in monasteries there and that was all very rich experience.

And I've had the opportunity to live in some practice centers in the United States since in the Zen tradition,

Especially because they're often just were a little bit more accessible in the places that we were in our life at that point.

But yeah,

Then also have practiced in the Pao tradition with Beth Upton and brother Wynn,

Who's a shared teacher of ours.

And yeah,

Professionally for many years,

Worked as a hospice chaplain.

And so care a lot about death and dying and bereavement and supporting people through that.

And now we work on a private practice together.

So work more with grief counseling,

Individual clients.

Yeah,

So that's a little bit about us.

Well,

Beautiful guys.

So I'm always interested too,

When I meet people in the Dharma is how did you first get exposed to Dharma?

How did it come about?

How did you encounter it?

And I hear a few commonalities,

But I'm interested.

Yes,

It's interesting.

I feel like we both kind of came to the practice around the time that we met in college,

But in different ways.

And initially like the first spark for me as I was working at a summer program for high school youth in Missouri called Missouri Scholars Academy.

And had a colleague that was leading some guided meditation practice and ended up deciding to explore that.

And from there,

It just kind of sparked this interest of like something deeper in life and in spiritual realm.

I think before that,

I wasn't interested in spirituality at all.

And through that,

I think initially,

It wasn't really inclined towards Buddhism at all.

It was more,

I was reading Sufi poetry and practicing Yoga Nidra,

And it was just like,

Oh,

Some other kind of experience of life.

And then coming back to college that fall,

Looking for an actual community,

Okay?

Who are there other people that are doing this kind of stuff?

And long story short,

We ended up meeting a good friend and mentor and teacher as well,

Jacques Retzky,

Who I think you've looked into a little bit.

Maybe you're gonna meet with as well.

And he kind of became our meditation teacher.

And we brought him,

We were part of a founding group of meditators,

People who are interested in Buddhism,

Practicing meditation worked with him as a teacher at that time.

And slowly,

At first it seemed like,

Oh,

I don't know,

He's talking about letting go of passion and letting go of striving.

This doesn't sound like anything that I've been drawn to before.

Exactly,

Exactly.

And slowly over time,

Feeling more and more drawn to that.

I think I have shared with him and many other people that he was the first person over 50 that I had met at that point that seemed genuinely happy.

And I was like,

Something is right with what he's doing.

I wanna go in that direction.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Obviously a lot is shared in our story.

Some unique parts of my story,

My parents were interested in Buddhism.

They're now both Buddhists,

But when I was growing up,

I wouldn't say they were Buddhists,

But they were kind of getting interested in it,

Especially when I was about the age of middle school and both of their parents had died pretty short near each other.

And as is often the case,

And maybe part of the reason that I'm interested in the work that I do is that when we face mortality,

When we face death,

Whether it's for ourself or a loved one or a parent,

Yeah,

It's natural to really make you rethink your life.

I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

What does it all mean?

How do we readjust?

How do we work with this given the finality of life?

And so,

A lot of that was like way beyond me as a middle schooler,

What they're going through.

It's a lot more in retrospect,

But they did.

My mom in particular started getting a little bit more interested in meditation and she got me to meditate with her a few times as an eighth grade boy.

I found it mostly tortuous to sit there silently for a few minutes,

But I remember one set,

Still all these years later that I was like,

Oh,

Something happened.

And then likewise,

Later in college,

Got interested in it again,

Kind of early college years and was really struggling with my own mental health and kind of depression and anxiety.

The sophomore slump,

As it's sometimes called,

And meditation just kind of happened to be something I turned to.

And not really as a coping strategy,

If I'm honest,

It was more just wanting to escape,

But it did kind of end up producing some spiritual experiences that,

It kind of changed the direction of my life and it became like,

Not just this hopeless trajectory,

But like there's something to life.

And I wanna figure it out and started really practicing regularly.

And yeah,

And then I think when it really became about Buddhism,

Like I said before,

Was kind of going to Southeast Asia and spending time in Buddhist monasteries.

And then it was really like,

I'm not just a meditator who happens to be in Buddhist circles,

But I really wanna dig into this Buddhist thing in particular.

Yeah,

Immersing,

And I will give you a short abbreviated version.

You know,

It seems like Willie partially through the Dukkha door and I hear that,

And you guys seem to be quite fortunate in how you came for the most part,

It seems like that,

Right?

But then again,

We can use Dukkha,

You know,

To wake us up to what's really important in life,

I feel,

And what's really useful too.

So kind of long story short,

I did that,

You know,

I came across the beat poets,

Which is,

I don't know if you know about them,

But not the most wholesome,

Skillful view of the Dhamma,

You know,

A really interesting twist and inversion,

I think,

Made it alluring in a way.

But yeah,

You know,

It's just wild to read,

You know,

For the first time,

The First Noble Truth and see,

You know,

What's it's,

You know,

It's a misinterpretation to say all life is suffering,

But it was weird how I could just kind of see,

Oh my God,

Yeah,

Everybody is really in the crap,

You know,

It was,

And then the Second Noble Truth,

It's like,

Okay,

I don't know what that means,

Third Noble Truth,

Oh yeah,

That's nice,

But Fourth Noble Truth,

Oh,

That's,

Wait,

I don't understand any of that,

You know,

So it's like kind of really overwhelmed by the state of suffering in a sense,

But that was the first exposure,

And then challenges through college,

And yeah,

Coming to it right away had a huge relief,

The first session that I did on my own,

And I just thought,

This is amazing,

I don't have anything to lose,

I'm just gonna commit to this for the foreseeable future,

And I've done that every day since 2012,

So I've only met like a few other people who has had such a rapid,

Immediate kind of transformation,

And then I went on,

I had like a couple,

Like quote unquote mystical experiences,

But most of the first couple years of practice was like having self therapy,

I didn't really have proper instruction from a teacher,

But it was still very healing,

And then I got,

Oh,

This meditation stuff's amazing,

Who does this meditation stuff,

Oh,

Don't these Buddhists meditate,

And then I listened to a few talks,

I was like,

Oh my gosh,

I'm so blown away,

This is amazing,

You know,

So I just wanna,

Just a little bit before we get in here,

Tell me about what,

Where did you guys go in Asia,

Because I've only been studied in Korean Zen in South Korea,

You know,

And yeah,

It's really quite an experience,

And eye-opening,

And yeah,

I would,

Kind of at the point now where I would drop everything to go do a retreat with our teacher when it's,

If I can,

You know,

Which may be possible from what I understand,

So it's a really important part of my life,

And I know you guys too,

Just a little bit about Asia,

Because I'm fascinated by this,

And I think there's a lot to it,

Especially for us here in the West who have this,

We don't even know really what American Dhamma is at this point,

It's still very much,

I think,

Experimental almost,

You know?

Yeah,

Well,

Maybe I'll just start,

And then I'll hand it over to you,

But one,

Because one kind of funny,

So we went to Vietnam,

Laos,

Cambodia,

And Thailand,

That was 11 years ago,

And that was for several months,

Sort of thing you can do more easily when you're 24,

Don't have kids,

Or a house,

Or really a career so much at that point,

And then we also did go back for a month just this fall,

Which was really wonderful,

Just to Thailand,

And one of the things that struck me first,

Though,

Which kind of complexified it a little bit when we first got to Vietnam 11 years ago was seeing,

Going to some Buddhist kind of temples just in the city,

And just seeing people,

Like,

Bowing down and praying to these big statues,

And finding out what they're praying for,

And it's for wealth,

And business success,

And I was just like,

This is what I,

At that point especially,

I was kind of more areligious,

And I was like,

This is what I hate about religion,

And like,

Buddhism does it too,

Like,

What?

So,

You know,

I'm now not so critical,

I'm more just kind of like accepting of like,

That's humans,

That's humans,

And like,

Buddhism is a religion composed of humans,

Too,

Around the world,

And we also did get to experience some of the deeper sides of Buddhism,

I don't know if you wanna jump in kind of about how that happened.

Yeah,

Well,

It was also in Vietnam,

We actually went there initially,

You know,

We were drawn to spend some time in Southeast Asia,

But initially the thought was we'd just go and teach English,

And it wasn't really a Buddhist trip,

Or Buddhist year,

You know,

That wasn't part of the intention,

But then the person who ran the organization we were working for had been a monk in prior years,

And was really excited to know we had even an interest in Buddhism,

And so I think in some ways to like,

Benefit his karma,

He was like,

Oh,

Let me take you to this monastery where I ordained,

And so we ended up staying,

I don't even actually remember the name of it,

I don't know if I can even find it,

But we ended up staying at this monastery somewhere in the mountains outside of Hanoi in Vietnam,

And I feel like that was our first real retreat of like,

You know,

Waking up at 3 a.

M.

And sitting and practicing with the community,

And being introduced to chanting,

And all these things,

And it felt,

Yeah,

Quite transformational just to even be in that field.

We were so new to it that that was definitely,

That was part of it,

But I think there also was some deep practice there,

And so from there we kind of transitioned the intention of our time there,

And ended up seeking out other meditation opportunities,

And it was actually quite hard to find.

Shockingly,

We see monks everywhere,

And there's all these monasteries,

But we would go,

And they would say,

No,

No,

No,

No meditation here,

Just praise Buddha.

We're like,

Oh,

Okay,

And so we ended up doing a Goanka course in Cambodia,

And that was also really significant,

But we didn't end up spending a ton of time in that tradition,

But a very powerful initiation in some ways,

And long story short,

Ended up at a monastery in Thailand,

Outside of Chiang Mai,

That a fellow meditator,

Jack Arpin,

Who's also in Beth's community,

Had been a monk,

And had recommended this monastery.

Pretty low-key,

Quiet place,

But I think it was the first place where we really got to sink our teeth into the practice,

And spend multiple months there,

And just had lots of access to the abbot,

Able to ask him questions,

And explore Buddhism as a transformative practice,

And yeah,

So that was a big turning point,

I think,

For both of us.

Very cool,

And circling back to Jacques,

I have already spoke to him,

And we recorded an episode,

And what is today?

Today is the November 25th,

So depending on which one's scheduled when,

I just wanted to say,

Yeah,

I was really super impressed,

Obviously,

With his depth of practice,

His state of being,

And presence,

Just virtually like this.

It's,

Yeah,

What an incredible guy.

That's unsung and unknown in the Dhamma world,

I would say,

Definitely deserves more recognition,

So yeah,

Now,

Did he tell you guys stories about Asia,

Or did you read in books,

Or,

You know,

You said you didn't initially go there,

Particularly,

For it,

I mean,

What did you hear about before,

Yeah?

He did encourage us to go to the Goenka course.

He hadn't done that practice,

But he had heard of it,

And,

You know,

He knew that it was,

You know,

Like,

Sort of presented as a Vipassana course,

And so he was just encouraging of,

Like,

That might be a place to do more.

He wasn't able to lead retreats,

Really,

At that time,

Because of some of his health challenges,

And we maybe heard a little bit from him in those early days.

We knew his teacher was a former Thai monk.

But he mostly didn't practice in Asia,

So,

You know,

I think it was just,

Like,

Again,

We mostly went to Asia with the intention to teach English,

But there definitely was just kind of,

You know,

In our culture,

There's that cultural story of,

Like,

Exotic,

Spiritual Asia that,

You know,

Especially as a young 20-something,

Was definitely alluring,

So.

Well,

Very good,

I think this will be a good transition.

I'm a little bit late to it.

I was kind of terrified of,

You know,

The American programming.

America's the greatest,

You know,

There's no need to ever leave,

And so I didn't have the internet back then.

And now I have,

You know,

I can do travel,

And maps,

And translation,

So there's not as much anxiety and fear around it,

And I just kind of structured my life to be able to do this in my later years,

And stuff like that,

And having an international relationship that's now ended,

But that's for another time.

The Go Inca thing is a real interesting,

I mean,

We could probably spend the rest of the time easily on the huge spectrum of experiences of folks I've met,

And reports from,

Absolute the best thing that's ever happened to me,

And now I'm doing nothing but Go Inca,

All the way down to,

You know,

This has ruined my life,

And stuff.

I mean,

And everything in between,

It's an interesting phenomena,

And I've never done one,

So I'm just looking at it from,

You know,

But I've met quite a few people who have.

But where I wanna get to this is,

Yeah,

You guys aren't just casual spiritual tourists here.

I mean,

I'm not so familiar with Willie's practice,

But I hear Laura report,

And Laura is,

If I may,

One of Beth's assistant teachers,

Right?

And so,

I mean,

There's a,

People don't know the depth of the,

What people call the Pak approach.

What could you say in a nutshell for the depth,

And the,

I would say,

The breadth,

And how methodical it is,

And I would almost say complete in a way.

I mean,

What they consider Vipassana,

For example,

Is way more involved than what some people consider Vipassana.

But I just throw it back to Laura,

Since she's actually allowed by Beth to teach under her,

And Beth,

Of course,

Has got the approval from Pak to teach,

Too.

So what would you say?

You can just be as basic.

I mean,

You can spend the next 10,

20 minutes going as detailed,

Or however you want with it.

So I'll just give you free reign to say whatever you'd like about it.

Yeah,

Well,

I do wanna say first that it's kind of a unique setup that Beth has arranged with her assistant teachers.

And so it's not really this full permission of,

Okay,

You're authorized,

And you can go off and teach students as you wish.

It's not really the invitation.

It's more a way to support people to get connected with her.

She's just at a point where her capacity is limited.

And so new students are invited to meet with us first to kind of build in just a basic daily practice,

Get to the point where they're practicing every day,

They're feeling comfortable with the five precepts,

Building that into their life,

And then kind of helping them get connected to the community,

And Beth herself,

And more resources there.

So just that does feel like an important distinction.

And yeah,

I think it's most people,

I think if you go on the Reddit forums or things,

Most people,

When they talk about the Pahuk tradition,

It's all about jhana.

And it's all about deep jhana,

Or I forget,

Even hard jhana,

Or I don't know what the terms are.

And so that's sort of like the,

What people mostly think of,

I think.

Vasudhimagajana is another term,

Yes,

Yeah.

That's like the buzzwords.

And yeah,

As you were alluding to,

It really is beautiful to see that,

Okay,

Yes,

That is a part of the training,

And there is a good amount of time that's spent there building that purity of mind.

But it's really all in service for this Vipassana practice,

Really all in service for the discernments.

And yeah,

It's wild.

It's wild how detailed it is,

How systematic.

I know for me,

I was so daunted,

Disinterested.

Like,

I'm not really,

By my nature,

I'm not a systematic person.

I really am much more of a intuitive,

Follow what feels right kind of person and meditator.

And so I was really hesitant about it for a long time,

And eventually just kind of came to this point of like,

I feel drawn in this direction,

I need to just see.

I need to see where it goes and not be held back by what people have told me or what I've read,

And I just need to see for myself,

Ehipassiko.

And time and time again,

I've been,

Yeah,

Inspired.

Blown away feels like a bit too dramatic of a word,

But something like,

I'm trying to find,

What is the word?

Yeah,

It's just eye-opening,

The depth of the practice and the way that these seemingly very rigid and systematic teachings,

They really allow the Dhamma to come to life.

And I feel like for me,

That has been like a beautiful telltale sign of,

Okay,

Is this moving in the right direction and seeing like,

Does this,

When I do these practices,

Does it make the teachings of the Buddha make more sense and more clarity or the opposite?

Does it feel like it's going in the other direction?

And it's every time,

It's,

Oh,

All these things the Buddha talks about,

The five aggregates,

All these pieces,

Dependent origination,

Things that felt very murky and unclear in the past,

They come alive through doing these practices and these teachings.

And so I feel like it's also very important that,

It doesn't mean this is the only way.

I think there can be a sort of tunnel vision that can happen sometimes in this training,

In this tradition that,

Oh,

If I just get to this next thing,

If I just get this next jhana,

If I just get this next meditation object,

If I go to,

Oh,

It's not,

I don't wanna do Nama Rupa anymore,

I wanna do Vipassana.

And I think there can be a limiting narrowing of the practice when it's held in that way.

And I think that's not the point.

And it's easy to do that in this training because there's so many different practices and different levels.

And so it's like how to hold the leveling,

But also to not get caught up in the leveling and to take the wisdom that can be gleaned from the actual practices itself.

So,

Yeah,

It's been a beautiful journey and it's been really cool to learn from both Beth and Brother Nguyen,

Who have different emphases and different ways of teaching just because of their cultural backgrounds and who they are.

And yeah,

I can pause there and see.

Just,

And thank you for that,

Laura,

Because I do get caught up in the profoundness of the leveling.

And,

You know,

I really needed to hear that.

I would also like you to give a little bit of a technical detail of what might be involved if you'd like,

But let Willie go first here,

Please.

Because yeah,

How do you,

Yeah,

What's your take on this,

Willie?

On what specific aspect?

Oh,

Yeah.

Like the leveling or?

Yeah,

Well,

I mean,

Just anything you wanna say about the Pahak approach,

You know,

Like maybe compared to other types of practices or other things you're involved with.

And,

You know,

I don't wanna spend all the time on this too,

But we are running out of time and you guys are like family systems experts too,

I would say,

Enough that,

And I don't know enough about that.

So we'll have to weigh our time here because I do wanna get into Anapanin specifically too.

But anyway,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Well,

So I don't primarily practice in the Pahak tradition at this point.

You know,

Now I'm primarily practicing with Jacques who you interviewed a little bit ago.

And that transition kind of just happened recently,

But I was practicing primarily in the Pahak tradition for a couple of years with Beth and then with brother Wynn and still have the greatest appreciation for both of them for that tradition and gained things and learn things from it and from them that I hadn't elsewhere.

And it kind of opened up things for me that had not been opened up,

You know,

Especially in relationship to the Jhanas.

And one of the things that did,

You know,

You use the word complete to describe the system.

And that is one of the things that I do appreciate about it.

And that first drew me to it is like,

When I first came to the tradition,

I was really interested in the Brahma Viharas especially and really wanted to like practice deeply in that specific practice.

And I had found a lot about people talking about Metta,

But then I was like,

What about the other ones?

And like,

Who can teach that?

And found Beth who's like,

Yep,

Like we can totally go deep in that in Karuna alone,

You know,

Just compassion.

I was like,

Wow,

Okay,

That's really special.

That's really unique.

And she did help guide me in that a lot.

Yeah,

And kind of to complexify it,

Like it also became aware,

It also became clear to me that I don't necessarily,

And I don't think all Pahuk teachers would suggest this,

But my initial conception was that I have to do it all,

That I have to do every single kind of piece.

And I think that's kind of my personality too.

Like I like to do it all kind of,

I like to like be a jack of all trades kind of in certain regards,

But that it's helpful to remember like,

What is the real goal here?

You know,

I mean,

For me,

And I think for a quote unquote,

Like true Buddhist practitioner,

It's awakening,

It's Nibbama,

It's release.

And not to lose track of that and getting,

You know,

Kind of stuck in the weeds of just like all the,

All the things you can learn,

Cause like they're cool and fascinating.

So again,

We could,

I could keep talking about that,

But that's a short answer.

That's beautiful.

You know,

Skillful means that's right.

For me,

It came,

And I've mentioned this before just real briefly,

It came to where I've come to so many concepts and they've helped me so much in Buddhism,

But at the end of the day,

They are still just concepts.

I'm grateful and I'm continuing to use them and refine like perceptions.

At the end of the day though,

I haven't been able to,

You know,

Penetrate ultimate materiality,

Ultimate mentality.

And I think that just,

I'm just fascinated by that.

And that's kind of my,

What I guess,

Pet interest right now in a way,

But it doesn't,

Yeah.

So that's,

That's kind of what I'm drawn to in this sense.

And it's also fascinating.

I was just talking to Brother Nguyen recently about how some people can make it through the entire Pahak approach and not have an attainment yet.

And that just,

If I'm getting it,

And that just blows my mind,

The level of a person that can be at and still not have an attainment,

Or I think it's vice versa too,

Where there can be attainments.

And I guess we're talking,

You know,

And not even do anything maybe near,

Not,

I shouldn't say anything near,

But yeah,

Completely.

So yeah,

It's really,

Yeah,

To put things in another perspective,

You know.

Just talking about that the other night,

We were out to dinner and talking about that.

And there's this diagram in the Pahak tradition,

Which is pretty famous,

Like the stupa,

Maybe you and probably other listeners know what I'm talking about,

That kind of shows all the levels of the practice.

And I remember being on my first retreat with Beth Upton a couple of years ago.

And for whatever reason,

I don't think she put it up,

But it was,

Someone had put it up,

Like a big poster of it,

Like near the front where she was teaching.

And of course,

You know,

Someone asked a question about that thing.

And she was like,

You know,

At least what she said is she was like,

Pahak really didn't like that diagram.

She was like,

He said,

Someone made that who's like obsessed with diagrams.

And I just like love that,

Cause like,

You know,

At least for me,

And I think again,

For many people,

Like that's such a seductive,

Like here,

This is exactly what I need to do.

Like it's,

It gives a sense of certainty,

A false sense of certainty.

Like I just have to do A,

B,

C,

D,

And then F will most certainly happen.

When indeed,

You know,

Life has uncertainty.

Well,

Totally.

And that's one of the definitions of Dukka,

Right?

Is uncertain,

Right?

We don't know exactly how things will play out.

And yeah,

You know,

I kind of hold it in two regards.

It's like in one hand,

It's so inspiring because it's so high level,

So complete,

So thorough,

You know,

How thoroughly and completely do we need to know Dukka and Nichyananda,

You know,

That's the best approach I found for the complete thoroughness.

But on the,

You know,

On the other hand,

It's kind of like,

Yeah,

I can find myself comparing to another,

Or,

You know,

Being hard on my,

Oh,

I'm not,

I don't even have an imitate yet.

Oh,

You know,

Something like that.

But so it's usually that doesn't happen as much and use it as an inspiration and kind of a building Chanda,

This wholesome desire to really aspire and then realize,

You know,

What's kind of more practical and what's not.

And yeah,

So that's kind of how I'm recently holding it.

Well,

Guys,

We're running,

I know I wanted Laura to get into the,

To say a little bit about what all is involved,

But let's just,

I guess people can look that up.

So I changed my mind.

Let's just go with that because,

Because yeah,

Anapana,

Do you guys practice Anapana?

I know recently I've just,

I've been doing that for a couple of years now,

But I've recently switched to Earth Casina.

So it's different,

But I still want to pick this up because the 40 objects,

Well,

If I'm doing that,

The 40 Samatha objects still have to go back to Vipassana.

And,

You know,

The Buddha went all the way on this is one of the very few things he gave more complete instructions on.

So do you guys practice this?

And if you do,

How do you practice?

And maybe what sets your practice apart,

You would say from,

I don't know,

Other traditions or even within Pa'ak,

Things that have helped,

You know,

Unique things to share about it.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I definitely practice Anapana and it's been my main practice as long as I can remember,

Various different iterations,

Depending on which teacher,

Like when I was working with Jacques,

It was more about,

You know,

Seeing things like the rising and passing away.

But I think more recently leading up to training with Beth and Brother Nguyen,

Very much influenced by Bhante Gunaratana and his teachings around Anapana and specifically this pairing of metta with the breath practice,

This real,

And I could say Ajahn Brahm as well,

This strong influence on ease and relaxation and joy,

Loving kindness,

Openheartedness,

Going into practicing with the breath as seeing like those qualities of mind as really like,

Okay,

Kind of simmering in that,

Making sure the mind is feeling really,

Really at ease and content and loving and then bringing that mind to the breath and then the breath can also have those qualities and kind of going from there.

That's really my inclination most of the time.

That's how I start most meditations,

Yeah.

For me,

It's something I incorporate into my practice,

But I wouldn't say it's like primarily Anapana.

But I feel like Anapana has actually been a more difficult object for me,

The breath,

Which was always kind of a little challenging and confusing because across Buddhist meditation traditions,

The breath is kind of like,

Understandably,

Especially given the Buddha's teachings,

The thing.

This summer when we got to spend some time with Brother Nguyen in Thailand,

And at one point we were out,

I think for lunch and he shared,

I don't think he would mind me sharing this,

That he was talking to me and me sharing that kind of like,

The breath is kind of hard for me,

To be honest.

And he was like,

The breath is hard for me too.

And he was like,

That wasn't like my easiest object.

And that was so validating and affirming because it's easy to be in relationship with these great teachers and just think like,

It was all easy for them,

Or at least like mostly easy for them.

The main things are easy for them,

But it was so validating to hear like,

Yeah,

For some people,

The breath is really easy,

For others,

Not.

For me,

The Brahma Viharas were much more accessible,

Much,

Much easier.

And I've met other people who've had similar experiences.

That being said,

I have had some positive experiences with Anapana,

Just a couple things that I was thinking about in anticipation of this time with you,

Josh,

Was one teacher,

Actually Jacques's teacher that I got to do a retreat with once,

His name was Dhirav Amsa.

And that was the first time I ever really was on a retreat that was emphasizing the Jhanas at all.

And he,

The thing that he really emphasized that stuck with me was,

He said,

So delicate,

Let the breath be so delicate.

And that was different than at that point,

I was like,

I'm gonna concentrate,

I'm gonna hold on to that thing.

And like,

It was so different.

And then the one other thing is that,

I think part of the reason Anapana is hard for me is cause like,

It's hard for me not to try to be kind of controlling of the breath a little bit.

And that's part of where the challenge arises.

But being on a retreat,

Maybe a year and a half ago or a year ago and just walking around outside and just noticing like the wind and remembering some teachers emphasize like,

How mindfulness of breathing is almost like the air element and just noticing like,

When the wind blows,

I'm not trying to control it,

But I can be aware of it.

And that was a really helpful thing to notice,

Like,

Let my breath just be like the wind blowing.

So those are a couple things that helped me.

Very cool,

I can echo that too,

That reflecting on it now that I've changed objects,

It just,

For me,

It seems like it was,

It wasn't stabilizing and calm enough.

I guess I was focusing more on the,

Not the changing nature,

But it's just not like,

I don't feel as solidified,

Calm and stable cause it's always,

And then like you mentioned,

How powerful words can be,

Especially when we're in a meditative state,

When they drop in the word delicate and we haven't really perceived it in that way,

How that can kind of be an opening and how with Anapana,

We wanna get more and more subtle.

And as the more and more subtlety,

The stronger the concentration gets,

Right?

But then on some of the other objects,

We actually,

You kind of energize them and then the concentration can get stronger for what I understand.

So it's not a,

It's kind of not inverted,

But it's different,

You know?

I don't think we have much context for,

You know,

Having a strength of mind strengthened when things get more subtle and subtle and subtle.

So,

Yeah,

And then our,

Yeah,

It's gonna go into excuses and blaming.

It's just like the conditions are really important,

Right?

They can be a great aid,

But then also we can strengthen our practice too when we have more challenging conditions to work in,

Cause that's kind of like running with a weight and then we take that off and then it seems easier.

You guys probably maybe noticed that in Zen practice,

Well,

At least I have,

I don't know,

I can't speak,

But it was,

A lot of it was really intense for me,

You know?

And then when I went away from that,

I was like,

Oh,

Wow.

You know,

What I thought was challenging before,

It's not so challenging compared to,

I don't know,

Eight to 10 hours of meditation and a Zen monk coming around,

You know,

Beating the floor,

It seemed like,

You know,

Really loud,

This is Korean Zen,

You know,

And doing 108 bows in the morning and chanting and having a head monk call out when you're eating the formal meal wrong,

You know?

So,

Yeah,

I don't know.

So these different approaches,

Yeah.

Yeah,

So yeah,

That's,

It's helpful to,

Just one really quick,

I was at the formal tea ceremony,

You know,

At a local monastery and I was like,

You know,

I don't know what to do here.

I don't know what to do.

I'm feeling totally out of place.

Am I doing this right?

And I talked to the Shifu or master afterwards and I told him,

You know,

I didn't know what,

I felt like I didn't know how to act and he said,

Oh,

Me too.

So that is like immediately put me at ease,

You know?

Yeah,

And he wasn't really just seeing that to make me feel better.

I don't,

At least not a hundred percent,

It seems like.

So yeah,

It's really helpful.

Well,

Guys,

I think we got to start wrapping up.

What would you like to leave the listeners with?

Is there any kind of final message you'd like to take us out on here?

Hmm,

Given that it's Anapana is kind of the theme,

I guess like if there's one thing that I would encourage the listeners is just to explore and experiment with finding ways to just enjoy the breath,

To just enjoy that.

Yeah,

And also that it's okay to have different teachers at different times,

Different places in our practice,

You know,

That it,

As long as we're exploring this wholesome path and cultivating those beautiful mind states in whatever way they show up,

That yeah,

Can lead to beautiful things.

Right on,

Guys,

Very helpful.

Thank you,

And I will leave it there.

Bye,

Bye everybody.

Thank you.