Balancing Ambition And Motherhood With Melissa Llarena

Before someone even has a kid,

Like before you're a perfect parent,

Before you have a kid,

That's what parents say,

Actually,

Behind the scenes.

It's like,

Of course you're the perfect parent.

Because before,

You know,

Before anything happens,

You have this,

Like,

Vision,

And it's like,

Oh,

What a beautiful thing to,

Like,

Cuddle with this individual that is going to sleep when I sleep and all these good things.

Well,

That's not the reality.

Hold this.

Welcome.

This is Josh of Interskilled,

And today I have Melissa Larina with me.

Melissa,

What's going on?

Oh,

Gosh.

Everything and nothing at all,

Right?

I've always,

I've had a busy day,

A busy week,

And I can't believe it's Friday,

At least,

When we're recording this.

Well,

Yeah,

It is.

It is.

It's Friday,

As they say,

Right?

So,

Who is Melissa,

And what kind of work does she do?

Yeah,

So I have been,

For the last 14 years,

Career coaching these very intense individuals in corporations from all around the world,

Right?

So,

Folks that really have had a need to sell themselves to new employers or just position themselves.

So,

All these,

Like,

You know,

Business-y sort of things.

And I would say it was about,

Let's see,

A couple of years now,

When my family and I had relocated to Australia,

Where I realized,

And this was during the pandemic,

Where I realized that these very,

Like,

Fancy people,

Myself included,

Having all these,

Like,

Credentials and stuff,

We need an outlet to all the pressure,

All the stress,

All the anxiety,

Nervous energy that comes with going after things that feel a little bit out of reach.

And so,

I remember I was sitting on a ultra-fancy beanbag on my porch during the pandemic,

After homeschooling my three sons,

And I was listening to a podcast,

And then I heard about just,

You know,

Learning more about meditation and really just figuring out how to apply it to my life.

And that set me on a journey that basically took me to present day,

When I'm back in the States,

And I'm using my own practice to get through a really,

Really hard season,

Which is also why I'm back in the States,

Aging parents,

You know,

Wiling out teenage kids,

And it's just been a blizzard,

A straight-up blizzard in my brain.

Well,

You know,

As you know,

This is,

I focus quite a bit on meditation,

Ongoing daily practice since 2012,

I haven't missed a day,

So I'm really big into this,

And I'm also interested in how it applies to daily life,

And I meet and talk to people from a lot of different walks of life in this podcast.

I think the one thing that stands out for me when you're talking here is,

Well,

A few things,

But one of the big things is,

Okay,

On one hand,

We have people that are really stressed out in their corporate jobs,

And some people might say,

Well,

Why are they doing that?

Isn't their health enough?

Why do we wanna keep having,

Maybe that's a good thing for them to wake up and say,

Well,

Maybe they shouldn't be go,

Go,

Go,

Do,

Do,

Do so much,

And,

You know,

They're burning themselves out,

And at the end of the day,

They can't take anything with them,

You know?

All the stuff they accumulate in life,

When you die,

You can't,

So maybe they need to have like a reset,

And maybe they're not even a good fit for that.

Okay,

So that's one side,

And the other end of the spectrum is,

Okay,

This is reality.

We have to be able to put food on the table and pay bills,

You know,

And we have to wake up,

So I have to make money,

But I wanna be able to be well doing whatever I'm doing,

Right,

So I need practical tools so I can continue having a decent source of income,

Right?

So it doesn't really matter if maybe I'm doing something I don't wanna do,

I need to be able to continue doing it well because of practical reasons.

Then we have maybe another spectrum where,

Okay,

Somebody really wants to do something,

And I think this is where you really shine looking at your thing,

Where there's a spectrum too between,

I don't wanna do this,

I don't wanna be here,

It sucks,

And then there's a thing like,

I wanna do whatever I wanna do whenever I wanna do it,

Like a dream career,

Dream work,

And it's not really practical,

But I don't care,

I just want that.

But then there's somewhere in between where there's a sweet spot here between all the spectrum here.

So yeah,

When I was looking at your work,

It seems like you're good in the middle because I think most people are in the middle of all this somewhere,

Right?

You know?

Yeah.

So I guess talk about how you view these different things that I said here and how you approach these different ends of the spectrum here.

Yeah,

I mean,

I think we can't just give up our obligations,

Right,

And say,

Sorry,

Tax person,

I am not going to pay that tax bill.

Yeah,

They actually won't even pick up the phone,

By the way,

If you wanted to tell them that you don't wanna pay the tax bill,

Just letting you know.

So at the end of the day,

There's gotta be,

It's gotta be based in reality,

Right?

So I tend to write a lot about using our imagination,

Coming up with these ambitious bold dreams,

And I definitely do think about it in the context of the reality of being a parent,

As one example,

The reality of being a caregiver.

So it's not just caring for kids,

But it could be aging parents too,

Right?

And I think right now what is important is that each individual figure out for themselves like that sweet spot,

Right?

So maybe,

You know,

Being lopsided during one season of your life feels exhilarating.

For me,

You know,

It was so exhilarating to take my three kids,

My family,

And go to Australia.

It was a family adventure.

It wasn't like,

Oh,

We have to find a job in Australia or we,

You know,

My husband or I have to work in Australia.

Neither of us had even been there.

This was legitimately the most,

Quote unquote,

Irresponsible but totally responsible thing that we did,

Because obviously we landed,

We found schooling for our kids,

And we found a place to live,

And everything was,

You know,

Quote unquote,

Normal,

Right,

From a family needs perspective.

But at the same time,

Allowing yourself to imagine something that's more exciting than what you're seeing in front of you,

I think really goes a long way for two reasons,

One of which I feel like there's like an energy behind that.

So for me,

When I was writing my book,

For example,

I had this vision of,

You know,

My children,

They had this artwork that was a picture of them.

I have identical twins as well,

So I have three boys.

So the twins,

They had replicated Egyptian,

Like kings or pharaohs or whatever,

And they had their actual pictures.

So they looked like they were from,

You know,

Egypt in those times.

So when I saw that image and I was writing my book,

I had this idea,

I was like,

Oh my goodness,

Wouldn't it be amazing if I could like fly to Egypt,

Go to the library of Alexandria and put my finished book,

It hadn't been finished yet,

On one of the shelves.

And for me,

That sounds impractical as in like,

Okay,

First of all,

It was the pandemic,

So that was like strike number one.

But the other side of it is like,

You know,

To pay for flights for a family of five,

To go to Egypt just to put my stinking book on a shelf,

It sounds so like,

Okay,

Calm down.

But that is the image I needed to give me the fuel I did not have to finish a book over the course of two years during a very,

Very realistic and low fancy schmancy stuff,

Global,

What,

Repatriation or back to the US from Australia,

Right?

So I feel like that middle part in terms of having these wild,

Ambitious,

Crazy out there,

Unconventional sort of dreams,

I think that that gives you some fuel.

And I think the reality of it all,

Kind of how you're gonna set that big idea into motion is gonna keep you grounded.

And for me,

Meditation,

Breath work,

Working out,

Which does not sound airy fairy at all,

It's totally like picking up heavy stuff and barbells has helped to anchor me in reality and has also helped me have the endurance necessary to execute on these big ambitions.

But again,

That's my life choice,

Right?

As far as I had those options,

I had the option in 2011 to actually quit my corporate job when I was a new mom and I couldn't figure out how to work from home one day only,

Mind you in 2011,

At a job where I had never even met my clients in person.

So it was really interesting,

But it was before remote work was a thing,

But that was my choice to build my own career coaching practice to then later become a meditation practitioner.

It was the flexibility that had a huge,

Huge price,

And that price is black and white,

Real US dollar signs,

Maybe Australian dollars too at a certain time.

And at the same time,

It's kind of like,

Well,

Okay,

So I have to make different choices,

Right?

So I have to want different things or pursue different things.

Maybe I don't have a freestanding house in a fancy schmancy neighborhood.

Maybe I have a semi-attached house in a fancy schmancy neighborhood,

Right?

So there's all these compromises.

It's not just spending less and cutting costs,

But it's also adjusting what you truly need versus what other people have and maybe you've always wanted,

But now your situation is a little different.

So with meditation,

For me at least,

The way that I've thought about it and what's made it different versus positive thinking and pretending nothing wrong is happening at all is that it's allowed me to really create the space.

And just today I was driving to the gym at 5.

30,

Mind you,

In the morning,

Thinking about this.

I was like,

You know what?

This is a hard week,

But I can hold two things in my mind.

So thing number one,

Yes,

My aging mom is not doing very well,

And today's gonna be a tough call because I'm gonna be talking to my sister about that.

But then two,

Today is Friday,

And I am going to have a good Friday after a very stressed out week with a teen that is just all about video games.

So I can hold those two things in place.

So today when I practiced and I meditated today,

I only had in reality five minutes before a podcast interview,

Right?

But I made do with what I had and I said to myself,

Okay,

I can have these two things in mind at the same time,

Constraint on time,

But making quality use of the many little minutes,

Those five minutes,

That's all I had.

So I think for me,

That's been a blessing.

That's been like the reason why I'm like this ambassador to people that are like otherwise high strung.

You know,

These intense folks,

It's like,

I promise you,

There's these benefits to adopting a mindfulness practice,

Even if it's something as basic as like,

You're at a Trader Joe's,

You're looking for the pasta sauce,

And you're just wishing meta on everyone,

Right?

You're just like meta to you,

Meta to you,

Meta to you,

Right?

Loving kindness,

Love,

All of that.

So yeah,

Like it's part of my reality.

And I think it's why,

You know,

I've had to meditate.

Like at this point,

It's not even like a nice to have,

It's like,

Oh my gosh,

How am I gonna make it through the day?

Well,

I tell people it's like brushing teeth.

You know,

You could skip a day brushing your teeth,

But why would you want to?

And then it's become so habitual for me that I notice it,

The longer I spend away from meditation,

The more I can feel kind of the weight of the world in a sense,

Or,

You know,

All the different downsides that just kind of almost automatically clear up meditation.

And it's kind of hard to talk about and tell people that until you kind of see and know it for yourself.

You made so many good points here.

I just want to kind of give some validation from my end on these,

Before I start asking you about having a career as a mom.

So that's the one thing I want to ask you about next.

But as far as holding two things in mind,

To me,

This is absolutely vital,

Especially when we get on to higher things like cognitive dissonance.

You know,

We hear one thing,

But then we experience something else that goes in the face of that.

And we can kind of see how each might be valid.

And it's kind of maddening to have both of these conflicting things together.

But I've found one way to do it is actually just to hold these in awareness at the same time.

And then they just kind of start to resolve and dissolve themselves,

You know?

So much of a spiritual path too is paradox and being comfortable with paradox.

And that's one way to do it.

And you mentioned a more practical thing,

Like not denying what's actually happening and pretending it doesn't exist,

Which is not helpful either.

Then we're just living in a delusion.

Then something really bad can happen.

That's a really harsh wake-up call,

Right?

Where there's no longer any potential of denying it anymore.

But we don't dwell on that.

We see it and acknowledge it.

And then we can bring compassion to the harder things,

Right?

Acknowledge it and wanting it to the pain and suffering and stress to lessen,

You know,

And for it to release and us to be free.

So that comes along with first acknowledging it,

Not pretending it's not there.

And at the same time,

Yeah,

We can uplift our minds by focusing on the heart qualities like of love and kindness,

And then rejoicing in people's happiness too.

And rejoicing in our own ability to meet challenging situations and just on and on and on and other people's happiness and how far we've come,

How much we've succeeded,

You know.

These Brahma Viharas,

There's really no,

They're boundless.

So there is no boundaries to these and there's really no danger either.

They're protective,

But we do it,

You know,

We do it practically if we need to set boundaries and enforce boundaries,

Of course,

We do that.

I think there was another point in there,

But I'm blanking on it now.

But if I remember,

Maybe I'll come back to it.

But I do wanna ask you about being a mom because you hear some people that say,

Okay,

You need to either choose to be a career woman or you need to really be a stay-at-home mom and dedicate all your time to your kids.

But you're saying,

No,

It's possible to do both of these and still not get completely washed away or burnt out.

So talk about your work-life balance.

And see,

I don't have kids,

So I can't really relate to it in a real way.

You know,

It just theoretical is a lot different than the on-the-grounds reality of this,

Right?

So talk about how you,

First,

How you've even approached all this to begin with,

Kind of what you learned and maybe what's changed to how you approach it now and what's possible,

Maybe what's not possible and how you do it all.

What's the secret sauce here?

I think it's,

For me,

Been iterative in the sense that maybe I had one way of doing things and thinking about balance when I only had one son.

And then when I had identical twins,

Two years after that,

I didn't actually have a second to think about anything.

So that was kind of like a blank moment for me.

Mentally,

I was just not sleeping and it was just dread when I would see the sun go down.

Because I didn't know how that night was going to work out.

Because I had chosen to just,

You know,

Nurse my kids exclusively.

And so that was really a wild ride.

But at the end of the day,

I think what's important is that before someone even has a kid,

Like before,

Before,

Yeah,

You're a perfect parent before you have a kid.

That's what parents say,

Actually,

Behind the scenes.

It's like,

Of course you're the perfect parent.

Because before,

You know,

Before anything happens,

You have this like vision,

Right?

And it's like,

Oh,

What a beautiful thing to like cuddle with this individual that is going to sleep when I sleep and all these good things.

Well,

That's not the reality.

Anyone that's listening already knows that I don't need to say anything more.

But what I will say is that,

You know,

It's just a whole different existence.

Like when a mom becomes a mom,

You know,

There's like biological changes in her brain.

So it's not just a,

You know,

Emotional earthquake or whatever in her body in terms of hormones,

But there's like actual changes to like your brain.

And it's to suit,

You know,

What your new role is.

And it also means that you're stepping into a new identity that maybe you stepped into and someone else told you what that is supposed to look like,

Right?

And so there's a lot of like inner struggle with regards to that.

So like,

If you have the word mom or mother,

Some people might assume,

Okay,

That's like martyr,

Right?

Maybe my mom was a martyr or maybe,

You know,

Another mom kind of like thinking of Diane Keaton who recently passed away.

She was like a working mom in the 80s and she had a mega movie where she was like doing all these like corporate things and she had shoulder pads and she was like ruling the world.

And then all of a sudden she realized,

Oh my goodness,

This is hard.

And she,

You know,

Leaves it all behind and is on a farm and doing jam or whatever and these like things.

So it's,

You don't know how you're gonna respond.

And I think it's a perfect opportunity for you to realize that when you become a mother,

It's almost like you almost are forced to have that time to actually respond to what you want to do.

Like you're forced,

Right?

So you have the baby and you're there at home,

Let's say the early weeks.

From a US perspective,

You don't have a lot of time,

But maybe Europe,

Right,

You have a year or so.

And you have wake up time that you're thinking to yourself,

Oh my goodness,

I am a mom.

And you feel the weight of that responsibility and those midnight hours of feeding or whatever,

You're thinking to yourself,

Oh my goodness,

I'm responsible for this person.

So there's so much psychological contending,

You're contending with a lot of things in those early months for sure.

That choice to go back to work for some women for sure is not a choice,

Right?

And I think for those women,

I have so much like sympathy,

Compassion,

Empathy,

I don't even know what to call it.

But I feel for those women if you don't have a choice.

Personally though,

I've worked with a lot of women that did have a choice and made the choice to continue along that identity of working woman.

So still a mom,

But still gunning after C-level spots,

Still gunning after big houses,

Still gunning after private school education for their kids.

And I've had clients that have struggled.

And it's hard to witness to be honest,

Because I hear clients going to like therapists.

And I think to myself,

That's time that you could spend with your kids,

Right?

Or I hear clients when their childcare center,

Someone is sick and then all the kids get sick.

And then oftentimes the mom is the one that has to re-imagine logistically what needs to happen,

Right?

And those are like interruptions or disruptions in your career.

Like it or not,

Things are gonna change for you.

Whether it's good or bad,

Good or bad,

Like rightfully so or not,

People might perceive you differently,

Okay?

If you're gonna be taking time off,

Or if you're going to say,

No,

I'm not going on that business trip because my priority is being at home or whatever.

So these are all choices for a lot of the people that I've worked with.

And when they've made their choices,

When I've had these conversations with them,

Oftentimes it has been because of that struggle of identity,

That struggle of identity.

Like they were their father's hardworking daughter,

Right?

Like that hardworking girl that went to Ivy League College and what,

I'm gonna drop my Harvard degree to then quote unquote only be a mom.

The other side of it is from a societal perspective,

I don't see a Forbes list of stay-at-home moms.

Like I see a Forbes list of billionaires.

I see a Forbes list under 40.

How about that?

What about under 60?

Under 40,

Right?

I'm not gonna say ageism,

But what I am gonna say is for a lot of the moms who've had to step out,

Some of them step back in and they don't have their big professional wins until the later years.

They're not even getting quote unquote credit in terms of superstar status from Forbes for that,

Right?

So the significance that a society as ours is attaching,

And I'm thinking of you as perspective,

In terms of being a mom is quite diminished and just not at the same level as being a CEO or a see-anything-o.

So that's the struggle and that's almost why balance is not even a thing for a lot of moms.

A lot of moms that have been in senior roles or whatever,

Like they're not,

Balance is not their ambition.

I think they just drop down to their sofa at the end of the day,

You know,

Like balance,

Like they're breaking,

They're breaking and there's a cost if you are willing to pay that cost.

And it's complicated because I do believe that sometimes it's not because they need the money all the time,

Because you do need to pay the bills,

Duh,

Right?

But might you be giving yourself a bill that you don't really need,

Like that second house or cottage in Canada,

Right?

Like I don't need a cottage in Canada,

Maybe you do.

So there's,

You know,

Just like a financial statement,

An income statement,

There's the expenses,

There's the cost.

If you don't add that expense,

Then you won't have that,

Right?

So identity plays a role.

Ego plays a part,

Expectations and what other people assume a mom should do or not do are all part of that inner kind of,

You know,

Battle.

Well,

You made so many good points here.

And I think at least it's,

You know,

It's changing a little bit.

You've got a guy like me,

Who's talking to a mom like you,

Like maybe,

You know,

20 years ago,

It would be different.

Yes,

The Forbes thing,

They don't have these demographics you're talking about yet.

But I mean,

I guess there are more female CEOs now,

Not saying that it's hugely better,

But things are changing a little bit where people are at least a little bit more open-minded at how these things work.

You know,

Even though I could see kind of early on that I knew that if I would to take,

If I really valued having children,

I would have done that early on.

But I could see,

You know,

Once they have,

If they want to be a responsible parent,

Their life changes forever,

You know?

It's done,

The old life before,

And it's not either good or bad.

It's just,

I could see at least that it would never go back to being the same.

You know,

It would change,

Absolutely.

And I could see that early on.

So I think that's one of the reasons.

But for me being a guy though,

With partners,

Before we start wrapping up here,

I'd also like to,

What do you see from a supportive partner and out there,

Other supportive partners too?

What do you look for in partnership that helps what you're doing even more possible and more supportive?

Anything you want to say on that?

And then take people out on a final message,

Please.

Yeah,

So I would say in terms of finding a partner that can even make this question possible,

You know,

Like how can I show up as a mom?

It's important to have a partner that is willing to like listen to you.

And I think that dynamics can look a little differently.

So it depends,

Like if it's,

You know,

Depending on your situation,

Right?

So the world is very diverse in that perspective.

Same sex might have a certain way of,

You know,

Interacting and engaging and communicating.

Personally,

As a woman,

I over communicate,

It's my thing.

But maybe,

You know,

My husband and he says,

You know,

As a guy for him,

It's not as much.

But ideally you'd find someone that at minimum has,

You know,

The ability to listen and the patience to listen and to also accept that things will change.

So what you need now,

When you have a little baby,

It might look different.

When you have a middle schooler,

It might look different when they go off to college and you're an empty nester.

And I think those conversations have to be had.

And ideally your partner can listen and believe you,

Believe you,

Like,

No,

No,

No,

I promise.

Now I need this,

You know,

Versus then.

So that's one side of it for sure.

And then as far as like a parting word or a parting message.

So here's the truth.

The truth is that you don't need anyone else to tell you that you're significant at all.

And I'm speaking specifically to a mom who might feel like she's operating in the shadow of everyone else in her household,

Right?

So like the mom who's the cheerleader,

The mom who's like preparing things behind the scene,

The mom who's worried every single night,

Oh,

Is my partner gonna make that sale or perform the way that they want it to?

So it's a hard thing to think about,

Even for me,

Even my tone is changing,

Cause I'm like,

This is for me.

But it's for you too,

If you're listening to this.

And I think it's something that maybe becomes your own practice.

Maybe it's something you remind yourself every time you take a breath in,

Right?

Like I matter,

I'm significant and take a breath out and I don't need anyone to tell me.

Well,

Beautiful,

Melissa,

Thank you for that.

And thank you for joining me and thanks for everybody for listening.

And may we all support our dearest mothers and what they need from all the support they have given us.

And may we all come to know and shine our light brightly for no reason whatsoever.

And that we don't have to do or say or prove or do anything to know that we are significant and worthy of just being alive and breathing and giving all our gifts to the world,

No matter what we do,

Say or otherwise.

Hopefully that doesn't sound too mixed up and convoluted,

But I really appreciate you joining,

Melissa,

And sharing your perspective.

That's something I don't normally do on this podcast.

So I'm glad I took the dive to do this and offer this because there's so many supportive women out there.

They need support too,

In a way.

And they need,

Yeah,

Recognizing their own light,

Giving themselves something too for all they give and give and give.

So thank you again and bye everyone.