Language | Mindful Q&A With Wendy Nash #38

Hey,

Wholeness.

Welcome.

This is Josh,

Integrating Presence,

And I've got Wendy Nash with me.

Wendy,

What's going on?

I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland,

In Caboolture,

And it's heading into the heat of summer.

So,

Of course,

I'm in the Southern Hemisphere,

And Christmas is here,

And Queensland is really,

Really humid.

So it's not that hot.

So it's about,

You know,

20.

A hot day for us is like 34,

Which is not that hot by Sydney standards.

34 is kind of,

That's fine.

But it's so humid that if it's 34,

It's like bearable.

So when it's not like that today,

I've got a fan on,

But it's not too,

Too bad.

I've got two fans on,

But it's not too,

Too bad.

So,

Yeah,

I'm happy.

How about that?

I'm in a happy space.

That's great.

Yeah,

And it's wintertime here.

When I got back from New Hampshire,

It was super,

Super cold.

Like,

Okay,

So,

Sorry,

The last country on earth that uses Fahrenheit.

So Celsius means very little to me.

Fahrenheit will mean even less to you.

There's eight degrees Fahrenheit,

Which is way,

You know,

Way,

Way colder than it would be sub or negative,

Easily negative Celsius.

So,

Yeah,

And you could do a conversion.

But here in mid-Missouri,

It's fairly mild for the winter right now.

It's almost 50 degrees Fahrenheit.

So not even close to freezing right now.

So it's really balmy for winter here.

But yeah,

It's okay.

And here we are today to talk about language,

Right?

Let's do abrupt transition here.

And I'll just read this,

What I have written for it.

In this 38 installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash,

Inquiring into Meditation Practice,

On and Off the Cushion,

We plan to delve into the influence of language in meditation.

Recently,

A podcast guest mentioned a turning point when a teacher described the breath as,

Oh,

So delicate.

There's also an exercise some insight teachers do in the insight tradition of meditation of getting into a meditative state and then reading off a list of words that are quite emotionally charged,

Both positive and negative,

And then noticing the effects when dropped into meditation.

And if we can notice how impactful this is in meditation,

How does this translate off the cushion into our life?

Also,

How can language hinder and how can it help liberate?

All this and more when Wendy and I speak about language itself.

So I'm going to sit back here for a second and I think,

Is there any way you want to start with what I read,

Wendy,

Or anything else?

Well,

As I said,

Just before we came on air,

An article yesterday,

Which was really interesting.

Unfortunately,

I can't find it today.

But what it basically said is that words,

You know,

We are all familiar with onomatopoeia,

Which is that words sound like,

Like plop,

Plop,

Plop.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So you can hear sort of murmur,

The water murmurs,

You know.

And so a lot of words have this onomatopoeic sound,

Although not all because,

As you would know,

The word in English is dog and in Danish it's hund.

So or in French,

It's chien.

So that they sound all very different.

But a lot of words are very onomatopoeic and a lot of words land differently in the body.

So I asked somebody when I was in France,

What does English sound like?

And he said,

It sounds like you're always angry at each other.

There's a lot to be said about that,

I think.

Yeah.

And I think maybe we are often angry.

And it's like we hear French,

You know,

And we don't understand French.

It's like,

Oh my goodness,

They're so beautiful and lovely and flowery.

And then you go,

Actually,

When you hear them,

They're just like,

You know,

Arguing the same as us,

You know,

It's in Danish,

You know,

You sort of have that.

There's a,

Yeah.

So what's the saying is,

If you can't say anything nice,

Say it in French.

Well,

Greg,

G,

T,

Greg,

Somebody rather,

Says hi.

And Nexus says hi.

So very nice.

Hello,

Welcome.

Hello,

Welcome.

So we're here,

Meditation,

Buddhist meditation Q&A.

So our questions are about that.

So if you have any questions about how language affects the way that you meditate and your Buddhist meditation.

And any other questions to meditative related,

If we don't get to them now,

It's potential for other times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Wendy was talking about,

I think you're kind of pointing out maybe the origins of language a little bit.

I mean,

Take it all the way back,

Right?

And these categorizations about these,

I always say that,

You know,

It's amazing how we make these little mouth noises and we can understand each other,

Or it seems like we can understand each other,

Right?

And like you're saying,

The onomatopoeia,

Well,

It just had to conceptualize because there's no video recorders of social media back then,

Right?

We have to kind of do some guesswork about origins of language if we're gonna look into this.

And I think that's really valid.

I mean,

It seems to make some sense,

Right?

How did the language come about anyway?

Well,

If they're actually mimicking other sounds in the world,

How things make sounds or things like this,

Well,

Then it makes sense to use our mouth to replicate kind of sounds in the world,

Right?

Mimic,

Mimicry,

Perhaps we've got call and response.

And as Wendy pointed out,

There's also this kind of categorization of romance languages,

Which is kind of Spanish and French.

We've got like more Germanic languages,

I would say maybe more precise,

You know,

Dry,

More complex.

I don't know about more complex,

But it's just different.

Sure.

So just in relation to Buddhist meditation Q&A,

Because we had a chat a couple of times ago,

And it's like,

Let's keep to topic,

Let's keep to topic.

Because I think it's good to respect the audience,

You know,

It's- Totally,

Totally,

Totally.

They've signed up for that,

So let's do that.

So how that relates to this,

I would say,

Is if we watch our minds in meditation,

So meditation is this like artificial container where we're getting to notice way much more about our internal experience and our,

Yeah,

And things we don't normally notice because we're so distracted,

And I would say,

And there's not as much going on,

So we can calm down,

Get subtle,

And go deeper and more subtle.

And so one of the things,

If we're thinking language,

Like I tend to do more by default,

Some people want images,

Is that we can notice that language can just,

Where does it come from?

It just bubbles up in the mind,

Right?

Thoughts bubble up in the mind in language.

And so we can see this process as it happens.

And I often look sometimes when I look directly at the mind,

It's almost like this subtle energy where a thought wants to rise up,

But there can almost be like a willful choice to not have it come up in a sense,

Right?

Or we can be watching at the mind door for a thought,

Like a cat on a mouse.

And so,

But why would this be important?

I'll just throw it back to Wendy,

Because I've been talking here.

Why would it be important to see our language or our language-based thoughts?

And there's a thing called an inner voice that a lot of us come into contact with when we're meditating,

This inner voice that speaks.

And yeah,

I just want to see what Wendy has to say about this,

If Wendy's a visual thinker,

Language-based thinker,

Or how she deals with language and thought in meditation.

So I'm very auditory.

So my visual faculties,

It's not that I can't see,

It's that of all the senses I have,

Audio is the one that just lands strongest for me.

It's the one I rely on,

One that I feel sure about.

So language for me is very important,

You know,

Speaking a couple of different languages,

Not so fluent now as I once was.

But I think what language can do in terms of meditation,

Or even becoming aware of it.

So you might say,

When you observe the breath,

Or when you notice the breath,

Now one has a sort of a distancing capacity.

And the other one is just,

Ah,

Look what arises.

So one has a more,

Oh,

There it is,

Look,

Whereas the other one has this separateness,

I am the observer.

And so for me,

In terms of meditation,

Buddhist meditation,

That's the sort of thing that I think can be really important.

And when you read the old Pali texts,

In the early translations,

And we're stuck with these terrible words like enlightenment,

And we're stuck with them.

And they're from times when,

It was during the Victorian era,

When words had different meanings to what they mean today,

The culture was very different.

And so the cultural lading of a word can really change and arises in our meditation.

So how about that?

Oh,

You can't,

I can't.

Sorry,

Yes,

I muted.

Yeah,

It is really important.

So um,

Wow,

Yeah.

Why don't we try this out too?

Like,

I've got a list of words that I,

Once I bring it up here,

We'll give everybody a chance to see if they want to do this about dropping words in meditation,

And the effects either gross or subtle.

Because I've done this exercise before,

And I really like it.

Yeah,

It's a huge thing.

What about watch the breath?

I mean,

Some teachers say don't watch the breath,

But others,

They use that language,

Watch the breath.

So for someone who's visually oriented,

That might resonate with them more.

So,

You know,

There's a lot of like general instruction.

But when we dial in the right word,

Sometimes there's just this aha moment.

Oh,

Wow,

That really resonates,

You know,

These other words are close,

And they're similar.

But there can be like a,

Some certain nuance for a particular word that really hits home and is really effective.

And sometimes it could work.

I think it seems like maybe it can work towards significant insights.

But other times,

It just seems to work temporarily.

And then maybe we'll switch to another thing.

And now this is another important thing maybe is that we don't want to get overly dependent on words.

So I think I had my teacher very wisely point out that he said,

Oh,

You're too dependent on language,

You know?

And I thought,

Wow,

Maybe you're right,

You know?

Maybe I'm relying on an overemphasis of language.

So in terms of your meditation practice,

How did that play out?

Well,

You know what?

So how else do we,

And excuse me,

Why I'm also scrolling through some notes here.

You know,

One of the things we can do is we can tune into our experience with language,

Right?

Okay,

So I found what I'm looking for here.

But we can also orient our experience to other senses and other means,

Right?

So we can just be visual,

Right?

Or we can be tactile.

So an overuse or an overreliance would be that maybe the experience of meditation is being overly reliant on paying attention to language-based thoughts.

But if there's an intention to switch to another way of noticing or paying attention,

Like can orient,

At least in my experience,

I found to,

Okay,

Now that I'm doing Earth Casino,

I've got this casino disc.

And instead of being lost in a lot of auditory thoughts,

A lot of times,

Or language-based thoughts,

I'm now putting emphasis on an image in my both eyes open and eyes closed.

And I've noticed a lot of that reside,

You know,

Because it's easier to notice.

As soon as that,

Then there's no meditation object anymore.

There's no,

You know,

It kind of predominates.

So that's one way to kind of see a contrast,

I think,

In meditation with this as well,

Yeah.

So what's your list of words?

Okay,

Yeah,

Yeah.

So let's invite everybody to close their eyes and relax and take a deep breath.

But these are all just going to be subtle nuances for acceptance,

Words that Buddhist teachers use for acceptance.

And I think some of these might actually be radical.

So I'm going to have to keep my eyes open while we do this,

So I could read the words,

Right?

But let me,

I will take a few deep breaths in silence here before I read these.

Just notice how these land and if there's any variations with what your experience is.

Open.

Allow.

Permit.

Embrace.

Inhabit.

Be with.

Accompany.

Free.

Melt.

Soften.

Soothe.

Safe.

Surrender.

Sweetness.

Gentleness.

Delicate.

Yes.

Tenderness.

Ease.

Expand.

Relax.

Release.

Include.

It's okay.

This too.

This belongs.

It is like this.

Okay,

Just take a couple more breaths before we open our eyes.

And I went a little quickly through these,

But there was quite a bit for sampling here.

Okay.

So,

Wendy,

Did you notice anything with these?

I'll be honest,

It was so quick.

I could barely keep up.

So I,

Not really.

But what I noticed is that some are more,

I guess,

Kinesthetic.

Some of them require me to do something action-based.

Embrace.

Some have a more passive.

So I feel allow is a more just,

You just kind of don't have to do anything.

You just allow it.

So I quite like allow.

Surrender,

That feels a bit.

Presumptuous?

Just like I'm giving up on something.

So I don't have any sense of agency in it.

So,

Yeah,

I mean,

They definitely make a lot of difference in the way that the word is experienced and what I do with it and whether I fight with it,

Actually.

So the thing about allowing is that I have a very fighty personality.

And so it says I'm actually the one who's sort of giving permission here about the breath,

Which is kind of silly because it's just the breath.

But I'm not being asked anything that I don't have to do,

Actually.

Whereas some of the others I felt like I was being asked to.

So,

For instance,

With the embrace,

When I was a child and I was 12,

We went over to England and to meet,

You know,

It was Christmas.

And my uncle was there and they said,

Give him a kiss.

And I was like,

I don't even know who this person is.

And it sort of reminds me of that,

That I have to embrace this foreigner,

Who's this man.

I don't know who he is.

Like,

You might know him,

But I'm a kid.

I don't know who you are.

He's a nice enough guy.

Like,

I didn't have anything wrong with him.

But like,

No,

I'm not going to do that.

And so embrace brings up that memory,

Actually.

And so I guess it's associated with all that.

Yeah.

It's a really interesting experience to see what our kind of response and reaction to these are without giving context.

Because I didn't really give a bunch of instructions or what to do with these words or anything like that.

So this is kind of like an old psychology thing of free association in a way,

Right?

So if a lot of instruction isn't given ahead of time and the mind is open and malleable more,

Then I think,

At least for me,

It's natural to,

From time to time,

Free associate.

Or like,

What is this bringing up for me?

So,

Yeah,

You mentioned the breath.

And yeah,

A lot of these can be used with the breath.

Some of them,

I guess,

Don't really make a lot of sense with it.

But other ones,

It's just kind of our inner experience,

Right?

So it's a very good thing to point out that,

You know,

Okay,

What are we accepting?

There's plenty of things that we shouldn't accept.

Number one,

Abuse.

Abuse should not be,

Is never okay,

Right?

So we don't want to pretend that we're going to be all lovey-dovey with something that we shouldn't be with,

Right?

I think what these are more geared towards is kind of inner conflict with kind of the things we're maybe struggling with.

Or these can help bring relaxation and ease and a more,

Like you're mentioning,

Not as active of a role,

But maybe more of a passive role.

And even the ones that call for more activity,

They're really not like laborious,

Right?

It's kind of like,

Okay,

Well,

The mind needs to get involved,

Like embracing.

What do I embrace?

Well,

Whatever I'm resisting,

What if I flipped it around and tried embracing it instead of resisting it or pushing it away?

What would that be like?

Maybe it'd be like your uncle and be worse,

You know?

But it gives more of an intensity to see what our inner experience is like when it's,

I guess,

Activated or engaged with in another way than maybe our habitual patterns.

And maybe we might notice something.

And maybe we might notice,

Oh,

I don't want to ever do that again.

That's enough for me,

Something like that.

And these come to kind of a radical acceptance,

Some of these things too.

Yeah.

So radical means from the root.

So that's what radical means.

And so,

And I just go radical acceptance,

Accepted it.

I just,

You know,

I think that there's always wisdom with what comes up and what arises.

We don't always know what it is that we're doing and why we're doing stuff.

But I think there's always wisdom with everything,

Even when we're nuts.

It can at least be raw material for wisdom.

You know what I mean?

We can either apply wisdom to it or it can be,

Wisdom can be mined from it.

Yeah,

I think,

Right?

So,

Well,

More than that,

I want to say that there's,

It's not just like one,

We do things not because we're,

There's like one being,

I guess,

In charge of the whole show.

Yeah.

Right.

Not that I know of.

Yeah.

You know,

We've got memories,

We've got habits,

We've got physiology,

But we've also got,

Yeah.

So,

But sometimes there can be like something underneath the surface that we don't know why we're doing that.

But we have,

We create the situation to sort of force our hand to deal with it.

So I've just been on the phone with a friend of mine.

He's in this whole big mess with his wife and his family and it's all just a big money.

It's all a big mess.

And there's a part of me that goes,

There is actually something,

I mean,

It's sort of self-inflicted.

He's done some stuff,

Which has kind of caused lots of problems.

And he hasn't done stuff actually,

Which is the big problem.

He didn't want to face the truth.

And so that's actually a lot of the reason why he's in this mess.

But there's a,

So there's a part of me that wonders whether he's actually getting himself into a position to create this calamity,

Actually to make it an irrefutable decision that he has to make.

And so in terms of language and meditation,

I think if you're not,

So going back to your thing with all those words,

What I was thinking is that is with each of those words,

When it sounds,

Sometimes I feel like I'm forcing myself to do and behave in a particular way.

And I don't want to do that.

So.

What does that tell you?

If I may ask,

Yeah.

It means I need to pull back and just go,

Something's not right here.

Something's something I'm trying to push a point or I'm trying to,

To respond in a way that sort of sounds like it's something I should do.

But actually,

There's some other thing here,

Which I'm not wanting to see,

I need to bring that into the picture.

So pushing the point.

Yeah.

It is really beautiful.

And I'm not,

So one of the things,

If I have a gripe about certain Dhamma teachers,

They kind of presuppose and preload these exercises and things to have it,

Okay,

This is the right way.

And it's not like that,

Right?

That's not,

But it's,

It's like,

It's kind of assumed that there's a whole kind of central core and that's what we're trying to get to.

And that's,

What's kind of correct and right.

And the other things,

Well,

They're all right,

But we know we really want to get to this thing that they're pointing to and getting people to see.

And in this instance,

Maybe,

But the thing,

If anything,

For me is to explore what,

What happens in this and then use discernment to say,

Okay,

What's actually helpful in this exercise and what's not,

Maybe universally,

But also in my own experience.

Yeah.

And I think these kind of judgment calls can be good as long as I'm not being judgmental towards myself or someone else and getting satisfaction from it,

But okay,

I need to use discernment to say,

Okay,

Well,

This is helpful.

This is not.

And I got to open to,

Okay,

Well,

Maybe I think it's helpful now,

But I also could see,

Well,

Maybe I'm deluded about this,

Or I'm a little bit off.

And what do my wise friends say?

What do the teachers say about my assessment and being open to being checked and,

And corrected,

And then put it again to the test again and again.

And we didn't even get to negative words.

I didn't even drop it.

Well,

I don't have a list of those,

But it really is a contrast sometimes where they'll drop a really nice,

Juicy,

Pleasant,

Restorative kind of language and vibe,

But then they'll go 180 and drop something very harsh and invoking rage and really unpleasant sensations.

And there's kind of a huge disparity or,

You know,

Polarity here.

And it seems to be amplified and we didn't have enough time to really settle down and open up.

Meditation,

Usually to me,

It does that kind of as a side effect,

Settling down,

Calming down,

And opening,

Opening,

Opening,

And the sensitivity level goes up.

So what I'm normally kind of more armored against now becomes open and amplified.

So it's easier to notice.

So then my question was in the intro,

How is this going to relate to our lives?

You know,

One easy thing is,

Well,

Well,

I didn't even notice I was there.

Now I do.

So surely that informs how,

What happens when I get off the cushion,

Even if it's just not in a fully conscious way,

Just,

And I love that thing you talked about with your friend,

How,

You know,

It seems to be this almost unconscious tragedy,

Almost trying to,

You know,

Just get it to surface until it cannot be denied or unconscious anymore.

I've experienced this for sure.

Yeah,

This phenomenon.

Yeah,

I find it happens less now,

For sure.

So going back to language.

So I found the article and she says here,

The opening paragraph is,

So this is what I was trying to get to.

Effective communication lies at the heart of human connection.

It helps us collaborate with each other.

And I can say it helps us collaborate with ourselves as well here.

Problem,

Solve problems and build relationships and communicating clearly is a major consideration for most of us in most aspects of life.

But what if the way some words sound makes them more impactful in communication?

So then she goes through a whole lot of stuff and she just says,

Highly vivid words are more surprising.

Why is that?

And so previous research has shown that words with negative meanings tend to be surprising.

This includes words such as snake or tiger,

Which is because they clearly communicate danger.

Surprising sounds mean dangerous words are less likely to be confused with other words,

But it doesn't explain why vivid words also show high levels of surprisal.

So we propose that speakers hack into the linguistic structure to ensure that listeners attention and memory is drawn toward important concepts.

They do so by unconsciously creating or maintaining surprising word forms because these words grab our attention and stick in our memory more effectively.

In this way,

The sounds of words are subtly guiding how we focus and learn from language.

So what I think is very interesting,

So it says here,

If we tested enough readers of this article,

We would be able to demonstrate better recall for words like flower and dog than stun and plot because we would kind of not include those.

You can sort of see there's a difference.

So I think that,

You know,

In this very language heavy society,

We have a lot of social media.

I think we,

It sort of behoves us to recognize that we take the words that we listen,

Read,

Internalize,

And bring them into the rest of our world and bring them into our meditation.

And as my friend was saying,

His father wrote him a nasty text,

Those words haunt you,

You know,

And they replay in the mind.

And so I think,

I think that can be that,

That's quite a lot to carry in meditation.

The thoughts have an energy and they create the body mind to respond.

And then it affects how we interact with others,

Ourselves,

How we see ourselves,

How we see the people who've said those,

What our engagements and behaviors.

Anyway,

So there you go.

It's,

It's,

It's,

I'm glad you shared that article.

I'm wondering now the,

What she means by vivid.

I mean,

We kind of have an idea,

But she never really defined because I think what somebody might consider vivid,

Another one might not.

And she does seem to be kind of presuming,

Oh,

If we tested enough,

Then we're sure we would have this outcome.

But I mean,

That's like,

I don't,

I don't know about that,

But what I do see that something,

I,

I,

I just,

Sorry,

There's a whole lot of stuff,

But yeah,

I skipped a lot in the article.

So just,

Just a heads up for that.

But the vivid thing is really because these visual striking images,

You know,

They,

They do seem to stick with us,

Right?

If we read a novel,

That's really visually descriptive.

Think about a pink elephant.

I mean,

That is,

You know,

This classic meditation technique of,

Okay,

Whatever you do,

Do not think of a pink elephant,

Right?

So it's,

It's like this,

The mind doesn't know negative things either,

Right?

You have to just like,

You don't want to tell kids stop running.

You want to tell them to slow down.

So that's another thing with,

With language,

Right?

And I cannot,

Cannot count how many times I've sat down in meditation and we'll start having a,

Previewing the conversation.

Like I know I'm going to have to speak to someone,

Or maybe I've talked to someone and either the conversation replays or,

Oh,

If they say this,

I plan to say that,

Or this is what I want to say to them,

You know,

This type of thing.

And not to even mention memories,

You know,

That come up that,

Oh,

Where did that come from?

They just,

Sometimes they'll just pop in and yeah.

So the highly vivid words,

So that those that are very specific or concrete are more surprising.

It's interesting,

This link of being surprised,

You know?

So it's almost that pre-assumes that we have this kind of set patterning.

We know where all the boxes are,

You know,

Don't step outside that.

Okay.

We're kind of expecting,

You know,

Someone to keep with this line of thought and not do anything out of the ordinary.

And I'm just,

Just pacing along.

And then,

Yeah,

If you deviate from that,

That's surprising,

Right?

It's called comedy.

Like if you think about a great story,

A great comedian,

What they'll do is they'll,

They'll say,

Oh,

You know,

It,

Like I gave a,

Cracked a joke at a thing the other,

A couple of months ago.

And I said,

Oh,

You know,

You can always do that.

It's much less surprising than,

Instead of saying,

Than you think,

It's much less difficult than you think.

And I said,

Much less difficult than dealing with counsel,

You know,

Like,

And people,

And people sort of were a bit surprised.

And I think it is something about using the play on words.

But I think in terms of language and meditation,

Just going back to that,

What I,

What I just,

What I think is not only the instruction that we are given by teachers and their preferences and their cultural baggages.

And also,

As you know,

Across languages,

They're different things.

So we've just given a few in English,

But in French,

Or I'm trying to think what French,

I don't,

I've not done meditation in French or Swedish.

So I'm not so familiar with that.

But I think that there is something about words that people tell you,

And how much that lands and the language that they use,

Like that vivid sort of language lands in the body,

Like,

Oh,

My goodness,

Did that person just say that to me?

And it kind of,

Goes over and over,

Or in relationships,

You know,

When they said this,

And it's like,

Oh,

Man,

You're,

Go away,

You're not being nice to me,

I'm not going to talk to you.

So I think,

I think there is,

There,

We take our meditation,

You know,

We take our life into our meditation,

We take our meditation into our life,

It's not separate.

Yeah,

It's a really good point.

The,

And emotions,

You know,

Emotions experienced in meditation,

I think this is one of the most safest,

Effective ways to deal with emotions,

Because some people have been,

They've suppressed certain emotions their entire life and told it's not okay to not only express that,

But not even really feel it,

You know.

And I think a lot of us guys,

You know,

We,

There's a not emphasis at hardly at all on having any kind of emotional intelligence whatsoever,

You know,

Looked at as weak and whatnot.

And,

You know,

Look at these causal links between certain,

Maybe trigger words,

Or,

You know,

Certain language that will trigger an emotion,

Or an emotion that seems to evoke a certain type of language too.

So a way to deal with this on the cushion is,

Is not suppressing it,

Because we can feel the most murderous rage,

Talk about a,

Maybe a destructive,

Like destroy everything in its path type emotion.

It can be felt very deeply in the body,

And,

But it doesn't have to be acted on.

So nobody,

You know,

Gets hurt with it,

And it doesn't get suppressed either.

So I guess,

Think of some of the,

Like,

Hateful language that we can use,

Or be thrown at us,

Like verbal daggers,

Right?

Thinking lots of cuss words,

Curse words,

With a certain type of energy behind it,

And maybe a higher raised voice as well,

When this happens,

You know,

This heightened emotional charge that comes along with some language,

And vice versa.

And yeah,

The Buddha talked about with wise speech,

Winnie and I have done a couple shows on wise speech,

And one of them is not using harsh language.

I'm still far away from that,

You know,

Especially when I'm not mindful,

And I'm matching someone else's energy who is harsh too,

You know.

How many times do I feel justified for saying what I,

What I say,

And just,

You know,

Or coming up with excuses of why I said it later.

So yeah.

And there's also this thing where I had one of the bosses in a job I had,

And she had this very gentle,

Soft way of saying it,

But it was extremely aggressive.

Very passive aggressive.

And so this idea that harsh words are those which are spoken with a sharp tone isn't,

In many ways,

It's more genuine.

So,

You know,

I have my community group,

You know,

I have my community group,

And I've got this thing where I'm getting all the footpaths fixed through an app and all the rest,

And the guy who does all the fixing of the footpaths,

He rings me up and he says,

Now Wendy,

I'm like,

Really cranky with you.

He's really like,

He's a guy,

He's a manual guy,

And he's like,

And I really like it,

Because I just go,

I said,

Look,

I didn't want to,

You know,

Make you cranky,

And he said,

Too late.

I'm already too cranky at you.

And he's like,

Who's doing this?

It's Wendy Nash.

And he and his colleague,

He's recounting the conversation with me,

And he's like,

Totally filthy with me.

And at some level,

I'm fine with that,

Because,

I mean,

I felt a bit like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Well,

I didn't behave my best self,

For sure.

But I prefer that than some of the stuff where I do have to deal with people further up the food chain,

And they are more,

It's more veiled,

It's this veneer of,

And it's hidden behind this bureaucratic-ese language,

Which is just such,

You know,

Avoiding any person,

You know,

And in a way,

I think- It's slimy and snaky.

Totally,

Totally,

Weasel all the way.

And so,

I think the question is,

What does it mean to be aggressive in language is part of that.

And I think,

And one of the lojong slogans says,

Don't act with a twist.

And it's that weasel-y,

Smarmy,

Whatever.

Oh,

Totally.

And that's why the first tenet is honesty,

Right?

Not saying mistruths.

And that's where it borders on.

And like I've mentioned before,

My girlfriend says,

Why do so many people say one thing,

Mean something else,

And then act in an entirely different way altogether than that even?

So that's the first tenet,

Is honesty,

Right?

Because if it's not honest,

Then we got a whole bunch of problems.

And it's said that people who feel no shame in telling a lie,

There's no limit to the evil they can do,

You know?

So it's,

Yeah,

It's,

Yeah,

Because there's like no safeguard.

So,

And this can be internal too,

You know?

Are we being honest with ourselves?

Some people don't even know if they're really being honest.

And I think that maybe that's something different,

You know?

But seeing,

At least being open to the practice of seeing the of honesty.

And yeah,

Sometimes our voice needs to be raised.

And you know,

It's really,

Genuine niceness is pleasant,

You know?

It has to be kindness,

But then the niceness can be extra on top of it.

It can be extra pleasantness.

But we have some people that will have this false niceness,

That they're actually being harmful and insidious and covering it up and basically a sarcastic niceness,

Right?

And it's just absolutely toxic,

You know?

And yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

I think that I'm going to be gendered and I just think that women can be really nasty in the way they use language.

There was a guy I worked with and he said,

You know,

I think his wife worked at a school or something.

And his line was,

When it's something dumb that's happened,

That's the boys.

When it's something mean that's happened,

That's the girls.

And it's very interesting because everybody goes,

Yeah,

That's so true.

And yet,

Bullying is seen to be this guy thing.

And this nastiness that can really,

And I think both men and women can be nasty,

But there is a nasty thing that happens with girls,

For sure.

And I have been,

I have done that too.

And I've done it when I have not been my best self.

And I've done it when I felt that I didn't have any other forms of power available to me.

That's right.

And it's a really good way to put it.

And in a way it's understandable there because,

You know,

There's a bullying that's more physical and intimidating,

But there's also with a sharp tongue,

Right?

Or with a silver tongue,

But that's also sharp.

And yeah,

And deception.

Deception,

Getting back at people with deception too.

And just being harsh and saying one thing,

But presenting another way and presuming something else and seeing,

Testing someone's intelligence with it or seeing if they can put,

Yeah,

Just,

There's just so many ways to be nasty with speech too.

And I think part of it for me is as soon as I catch it,

Is this kind of not tolerating it,

Speaking up.

And even if it's not right in the situation,

I like doing this thing of testing people where I kind of try to make it clear through what I'm saying that I'm calling the person out on their BS or what they're doing and letting them know it's not okay,

But sometimes can do it in a kind of a humorous way that will also not cause disruption for anyone around that's not cued in to how they're actually using language and the intent.

So it's a kind of a very sophisticated word game,

But it's when no one else is around,

I have no qualms with really speaking up and making it clear that what they're doing is not okay.

And yeah,

Sometimes making a joke about it can disarm the situation and make them realize how ridiculous they're being in what they're saying.

Sometimes that works,

But sometimes that backfires.

I think it's true.

You know,

I think there's definitely truth to that,

But I think you have to build up a lot of relationship first and a lot of goodwill with that first.

Otherwise you're putting yourself in a position,

You haven't been given permission to do that.

So this is something I have had to learn.

I tend to just go,

Yeah,

But you're speaking.

And then of course,

Look in the mirror.

No,

No,

No.

I don't want to look in the mirror.

It's all about you.

You're the problem,

Not me.

And I was like,

Of course it's me who's the problem.

It can be both.

It can be both,

You know,

And that's right.

Well,

Of course,

Kindness is always going to be the best thing and having excess of that,

It's going to be really hard.

So yes,

All the other stuff aside,

Totally in total agreement with that.

Sometimes we have to give ourselves permission though too,

You know,

And sometimes that gets me in trouble.

But sometimes I feel called to do it.

And sometimes I have to reap the consequences of doing it.

And other times I just need to bite my tongue,

Take the hit and be okay with a bunch of unpleasantness right now,

But that's going to save,

It's going to save a lot more unpleasantness in the future.

You know,

That's the harder lesson because it is so tempting sometimes to keep on.

I was just thinking about that.

So I've got a bit of a situation with one of my local counsellors and he's blocked me from his social media,

One of his social media accounts,

Which he's not allowed to do according to the code of conduct.

Well,

That's my understanding,

But he says,

Well,

I can do it because it's not provided by the council.

So it's my private one,

It's public facing,

But it's my account,

So I can do what I like.

So I had to go into the,

What's called the Office of Independent Assessors.

So these are the people who are the guardians of the code of conduct,

So to speak,

For counsellors.

And counsellors is the,

Is like,

I mean,

Municipality,

I don't mean like a therapist.

And so they then asked me for evidence.

So what have you done?

And I was,

There was one particular exchange,

And I remember at the time just going,

Somebody wrote an offensive term,

And I wrote,

I was,

I remember at the time going,

Ah,

Isn't he just,

You know,

Whatever.

But I just went,

Don't go there,

Don't go there.

But I did write,

Love it,

Because I was so like,

But it's really,

Like,

It was a very offensive way that she put it.

But I then had to submit that through to the official authorities,

Government agencies,

Going,

You know,

What,

What is this?

And it just made me really realize,

Really brought home to me,

In all situations,

If you can't say something nice,

Don't say anything at all.

And in fact,

I've got a friend who's currently,

She lives in Germany,

And she's just on holidays in,

In Greece.

And she was just messaged me,

She was talking with me on a little voice message,

Through one of the apps.

And she said,

Oh,

And I,

And I'm making all these,

These relationship,

Building these relationships with academics who come to my university and into my group,

And,

And they talk about it.

And I just right afterwards going,

Oh,

You know,

Thanks so much.

It was really lovely.

And she said,

It's so easy to be kind.

And it reaps such great rewards.

And language is how we are kind,

And how we are mean,

And how we can get ourselves into trouble.

It's a really good,

Wow,

Yeah,

It's really important,

Because I could remember the times before,

And still a little bit now,

But way worse,

Where there was just such a satisfaction and getting some,

Being right,

You know,

And what a pointless pursuit that is a lot of times,

You know,

Yes,

Standing up for something that's important to stand up for,

But to win an argument,

So I can get some kind of momentary satisfaction.

It's,

It's,

It,

It leads to,

It can lead to like,

Kind of more depressive states,

I think,

You know,

Because it's,

At the end,

It's kind of hollow.

Do we want to be right?

Or do we want to have peace and harmony,

Basically,

Right?

And when is it right to keep pursuing something in order to be right,

Whatever that means in a way,

Or to,

To keep peace and harmony?

Now,

It's easier said than done,

Right?

I'm slipping up all the time,

Right?

And I don't even realize it.

One teacher says,

Is this really worth me giving my peace up over?

You know?

So it's a great,

It's a great thing to remember.

But it is hard sometimes,

Though,

When you're in the thick of this,

I feel very wronged,

You know,

Like my local counselor,

And I just,

And I'm just going,

Yeah,

But no,

But it's,

And I,

I'm self-righteous,

You know,

And I'm,

And I come from this critical and dogmatic family and push the point.

That's my family history.

So I've got that and,

You know,

Generations before me,

Exactly the same.

And there could be an entitlement to around it,

Right?

Yeah.

Or I'm standing up for justice.

And this is the way it should be and has to be,

You know,

And well,

Maybe,

But maybe not.

You know,

And,

And my,

My social class is historically,

You know,

Quite sort of upper middle class with servants and things like this.

And so,

Yeah,

So you should go do that.

So I can feel myself do that.

It's like really mean.

And then I have that all going in my meditation all the time.

And,

And that's what I think is so helpful about meditation is that it just goes,

Don't do it.

It sort of helps me kind of go,

What are the consequences?

What are the consequences?

And I'm like,

No,

But it wasn't like,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

But it's not fair.

I don't want to hear.

It is,

It's like a kid.

Yeah,

I stick my fingers in the ears.

Yeah,

I don't want to hear it.

I don't want to hear it.

Yeah.

You know,

It is,

It is like a little tantrum sometimes.

And what we,

What meditation,

How this applies to meditation is we can see this so much,

At least I can see this so much clearer in meditation.

Everything we've been talking about gives the space,

Gives the container,

Gives the quietness and to,

To,

To see this and to have it replay and then get fed up with,

Oh my God,

I have to sit here and have this replay in my head or whatever.

And I'm wasting all my time sitting for meditation.

So we can see a part of it is sitting down without regret.

So this is the,

One of the things with the precepts,

If we're keeping these precepts more diligently and taking that as a training too,

Then when we sit down,

A lot of this gunk doesn't have to come up.

And so everything that Wendy,

Or not everything,

But a lot of we've talked about has been complete noise that doesn't really have to happen so much anymore.

When we sit down where I,

Both of us,

I feel are speaking from our own experience here and how we can now see this stuff and we can choose otherwise.

That's the other nice thing about meditation is that it gives more space to give a response instead of a reaction where usually it's just operating more on habitual habit patterns and react,

Reactivity where now we can see,

Oh,

Wait a second there.

We actually have a space here to make a choice and don't,

Don't have to just have that happen the way it's always,

Or a lot of times happened.

Yeah.

And how we talk to ourselves too,

This internal self-talk,

The language we use to ourselves as well.

Yeah.

I think is really important when we're on the cushion or when that part of meditation surfaces.

Yeah.

I feel that on the cushion,

Like the way that I speak to others is the,

And the way that I speak about others is how I,

Is really just more the external experience of how I see the world.

So when I was a younger woman,

I was very judgmental and I would be like,

Oh,

Those people are so judgmental,

You know,

Those people over there.

So it was like my,

Well,

I couldn't own it.

Judging people for judging.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And so that's a common trait,

You know,

He's so judgmental.

It's like,

Well,

I think you're being judgmental,

But you know,

Yeah,

But that's different because I'm doing the judgment.

But even that's being judgmental.

It's just like this,

Like a million mirrors and it just keeps going on and on and on,

You know?

So,

But how do you talk about it?

If you don't even say that you can't even,

You know,

You just have to sit there and won't,

There's a saying,

Wouldn't say crap if they had a mouthful of it,

You know?

Yeah.

So that's why,

Yes,

We have to speak out sometimes.

And yeah,

Anyway,

So I've talked about my views on this.

But I think that what I see,

My experience in the 20 odd years of practice is that because I try and speak with love and kindness as much as possible,

Recognizing that I'm a fully flawed human being,

Far from enlightenment,

That A,

I'm funnier and I just let things go.

But B,

I,

And I can see that I'm kind of an idiot,

Like,

And I don't mean like giving,

But I'm like a bit of a doofus,

You know?

It's like,

There was a great thing.

It's my birthday today.

What is it?

Old fool.

And then last year,

No difference,

You know?

It's like,

I feel still like that.

Last year,

Old fool.

This year,

No difference.

That's what it is.

But I do feel that speaking with others more kindly has a direct effect on the positive way that I feel.

I speak to myself and speaking with myself with more awareness and kindness.

And so I've just come to this idea that I'm feeling ashamed is where I thought I was doing the right thing,

But then I realized I did a bad thing.

I felt like I was doing something good and I realized I actually did something bad.

And I didn't want to own that I had done something bad,

But I actually had done something bad,

You know?

And I think that that is a useful way of seeing shame.

And then by owning more and more shame,

I can be kinder and kinder.

And then when somebody says,

I feel so ashamed,

We go,

Yeah,

Well,

You acted,

You tried,

You thought you were going to do something good,

But actually what you did was bad.

And it is true,

You know?

It's maybe not a bad thing to know that you actually acted badly because that's kind of the human condition.

So yeah,

Anyway,

I'm crapping on.

No,

No.

I think this maybe might be an episode we can do here in Ottawa.

This is a moral shame and a moral fear,

Not the shame where I beat myself up and feel horrible about everything and I can never do anything right.

But it's this protective,

What you're talking about here,

This really moral or ethical shame that is really helpful,

You know?

And they're called the guardians of the world.

So I think maybe we can explore that for a future time.

I wanted to kind of do this because I needed for my own learning and distinction on this to a little bit of a more study because I tend to bypass these sometimes and get around them when I probably shouldn't as much.

But this notion,

I don't know if it's self-deprecating,

But what you mentioned there,

What was coming to me is it seems like the intent you have behind this is to be more relatable and more belonging.

Because if I present my,

I'll just throw it back on me.

If I present myself as super smart,

Super intelligent,

Got it all together,

I'm so this and that,

Then I'm not very relatable,

Right?

So,

But if I take myself down- You sound like a really boring,

Irritating person.

I'm like,

I want to talk to him.

A lot of times.

But if I take myself down a notch with self-deprecation,

Then it's kind of funny and it's relatable.

So I can see that.

On the other hand,

What if we could just shine and be who we are without needing to give extra effort to have belonging?

And you know what I mean?

So I can kind of see it both ways,

Right?

Because it is relatable to consider myself doing things foolish from time to time.

And of course,

That's going to happen anyway.

But to be down on myself a little bit,

I don't know.

But this is another thing,

Conceit,

Right?

That's kind of inferiority conceit.

But the other one I just talked about,

Like I'm so good,

I got it all together and wise,

That's an inferiority.

We can obviously see that one.

But I don't know,

What do you say about this?

Because I can see the pros and cons of this kind of self-deprecation,

If that's what we're talking about.

Or maybe that's,

Maybe I'm off.

Yeah,

I just would be concerned about the humble brag.

Oh yeah,

That's a big one.

They're like,

That's a bad look.

Don't do that.

Oh,

I do that so much.

Yeah.

It's really bad.

Is it?

Are you serious?

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

Like,

Oh yeah,

I'm going traveling here.

And oh,

I'm so busy.

Being so busy,

That's ridiculous.

I used to wince at people that did that,

Where that's kind of admirable.

But I find myself doing it now too.

Oh,

I'm so busy.

I've got all this stuff to do.

So I think when people say they're busy,

Actually they're chronically overwhelmed.

I think it's actually a sign of feeling overwhelmed and not feeling like you've got all your resources.

I think that's all it means.

I think it's a marker of being in an individualist society that you have to do everything on your own.

And that's why we say we're busy.

That's what I think is going on with that.

That's really wise.

I think that there's a lot to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think the humble brag.

Yeah.

But I think the humble brag.

Oh,

Yeah,

I didn't do that as well.

You know,

Like,

Oh,

You know,

It's just like,

Oh,

And false humility is like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

But I think if you if you did something and you were,

You got it,

It's like,

Oh,

My God,

How about that?

I did it.

Isn't that super cool?

Exactly.

High five.

Yeah,

It's like super exciting.

But likewise,

Oh,

Man,

I totally trashed it.

I was like really bad.

For me,

It's more about being sincere and spontaneous and where things are and not being a miserable git.

You know,

I think the idea of being a miserable git is a bad idea.

And I think the idea of being guilty for being happy is a bad idea.

So it's just about being with what is here and what is here is kindness and love.

And that's a beautiful thing.

It reminds me of a saying of the Buddha that more than a thousand words is one word that brings peace,

You know,

And it's so that's so beautiful,

Really kind of ironic here that we've got a show where we talk for basically a full hour straight,

Which,

By the way,

We're coming to a close here.

So,

Yeah,

Wendy,

Is there any kind of final words that you'd like to wrap up with here?

I think that,

You know,

It's Christmas in a couple of days and a couple of weeks,

And that can be quite tense.

And give yourself some slack,

Try and be kind,

Skip the alcohol if you can.

And then because that just makes you a bit grimy and grotty afterwards and not a very nice person.

So,

Yeah,

We're willing to do things you normally wouldn't do on the other side.

Yeah.

I mean,

Pay the consequences later.

Yeah.

And then that's yeah.

So just take it easy and do your best.

And we look forward to seeing you in 2026.

Hear,

Hear.

I totally agree with all that.

Couldn't echo it more.

So thank you all for listening,

Tuning in,

Being here or listening whenever you do,

Watching whenever you do.

And thanks again to Wendy.

And bye,

Everybody.

Bye.