Chat With A Friend - Episode 3 - What's Your Habit?

Hey there.

Good morning.

Morning.

How are you?

I am good.

Welcome back.

Thank you for being here with our next episode.

I appreciate your time.

So what do we have in store,

Ilona?

What are we discussing today?

Today we're going to probably build up on what we talked yesterday.

What consists of MELD,

Part of the overall wellness is modern day addictions in the sense that we don't talk about alcohol only or like the usual,

Like drugs,

Etc.

But what other things are out there?

Fascinating.

Addiction is a big subject,

Right?

And I think for me,

Even like scratching the surface feels scary.

Do you feel that?

I can't even.

.

.

I tried to research and it was scary.

Because the stuff out there in terms of what we get addicted to,

How we get addicted to substances,

Behaviors,

Habits,

It is so much information,

So much pain,

Suffering.

It's like I get so yeah,

It's a topic I think is very interesting for me.

What do you think?

It is an interesting one because usually when someone says addiction even a few years back,

I would just think about what's been around for the most.

I would be like,

Sorry,

It's alcohol,

Drugs,

Gambling,

Porn.

That would be.

.

.

That's the big three.

This is the things that.

.

.

That's the big three,

Yes.

Three?

Alcohol,

Drugs,

Smoking,

So big four.

You forgot porn.

That's a big one as well.

Yeah,

So those are the things that actually everyone is aware of,

But then if you start thinking of other things and you don't really classify them as addiction,

It's more your habits.

So the best one is your phone.

Oh,

Yes.

Have you.

.

.

How many times when you were working on something,

You were just working something and suddenly you have a few minutes time and without even thinking,

You pull up your phone and go to wherever,

Browsing your phone.

Or when you are on the call and you are just reaching out for your phone,

And you're just like,

Why am I doing this?

So many times.

So many times.

I'm actually doing it now.

Like,

I might be addicted.

I'm not.

I'm just kidding.

I keep my source phone separately.

But yeah,

That's a fair point.

The big four is often what we talk about.

Of course,

There is a lot of people affected by the big four.

I think for us,

I just wanted to say,

I'm not a doctor.

I'm not a psychiatrist.

But I am well-equipped to talk about addiction.

Do you know why?

Because I have been an addict for about 20 years of my life.

So I've been addicted to certain substances.

I've been addicted to certain behaviors,

Etc.

So this is my point to everyone listening.

You don't need to be an expert in addiction to understand addiction.

You can be yourself and understand addiction.

And that's one classification I would like to make.

There is help out there.

There are people who can help,

Etc.

But it comes from within.

Nobody can.

.

.

I just wanted to caveat that.

Nobody can force anyone to go to rehab,

Etc.

It has to come from within.

So this awareness,

Like bringing what is in front of us to us is what we're trying to discuss.

So yeah,

There are many,

Many ways we get addicted.

So mobile phone is big.

I think there is gambling.

There is.

.

.

When you start looking into it,

It will be.

.

.

The main thing will be technology.

Then you will have all the binging,

In a way,

As a consequence of technology.

But again,

What we're discussing here,

It's.

.

.

The same thing,

The disclaimer.

It is our views.

If obviously someone needs help and the ghost on the extreme obviously seek help with professionals.

It's like ghost without saying.

It's just like,

Do what you need to do and what you want to do to get better.

That's the most thing.

And then it goes into a ghost social addiction.

What do you mean by social addiction?

Validation.

Constantly seeking,

Doing things.

That as well.

Or social media.

That's again default of technology.

How many times you just go randomly on Instagram and you search or TikTok hours and hours and hours.

Because this thing is,

Sometimes I get scared of my screen on my phone.

I guess there's certain things that are for education.

There's meditation apps or such.

That time I don't really count.

It's just a tool or a background.

But then suddenly I look at my phone and suddenly my stats on screen time is three hours.

I'm like,

I haven't been on my phone for three hours today.

I was like,

That's a long time.

And then I look at the apps.

This,

This,

This.

There's Spanish and then Instagram is freaking 45 minutes.

I didn't even talk to anyone on Instagram today.

That's it.

This is one.

And then obviously food.

Food is a big one because it stimulates pleasure centers.

So all the modern technology what we're talking about is it brings us,

In us basically craving for the instant dopamine head.

Whenever you show something,

You look at the cute doggie video on YouTube or whatever.

It's in your social platform.

And you're like,

Oh,

This is so sweet.

You're already like,

Bing.

Your brain is stimulated.

You go in and look at cute food stuff,

Etc.

Your food is stimulated.

You post something online.

You get like bling.

You get so addicted.

You just feel like,

Oh,

Excitement level.

And I think this is where probably most of us live.

A lot of people live now and this probably brings us into why we have such a shortened attention span.

Yeah,

This is true.

Coming back to the point is we can be we think addiction sometimes is substance addictions or some things which we put externally.

What you mentioned there is a very good point.

When we get addicted to certain behaviors,

It's not some external thing which we put in.

We are actually using our own internal addictive patterns which we have from evolution,

Which we needed when we were growing up in the forests and the wilderness.

We needed that food.

We needed to identify that food and we would do.

We would get there because of the dopamine hits we received because we wanted to get there.

Otherwise,

We wouldn't survive.

The survival instinct of understanding where food is or pleasure is or procreation or whatever needed for our survival is just transformed into modern addictions,

Which is like you get that same feeling of chasing after that wild animal to get food when you actually just look at somebody else's Instagram post and you're like,

Oh yeah,

I want that.

And then suddenly your brain is rewiring.

So that's exactly what you're talking about.

And also with these things,

Especially it's so easy to get into this.

So essentially,

If it is especially,

You know when people say it's really hard to go back to healthy eating after holiday,

Right?

And this is because you,

For like the seven days,

Fourteen days whenever you've been away,

You condition yourself to eat oats holiday to treat yourself.

You maybe move less or you do different activities,

But you condition yourself and you allow yourself to do more.

So you allow yourself to eat more ice cream.

You allow yourself to drink more.

Let's say you have a glass over with your lunch and then a glass or two glasses with your dinner or something.

And that's like perfectly fine when you do it occasionally,

Like once in a while.

But then again,

When it becomes like you do this,

Let's say for fourteen days,

Your entire habit starts to form.

And then all the,

Your natural metabolism and etc,

They just slow down.

So you just feel low.

So you need that comeback.

You need that,

You feel like you need extra caffeine to kick you in.

And this is where I think it starts with going to food or binging.

Because how many times you do nothing when you watch Netflix?

Because if you don't have your phone in your hand,

How many times you actually reach for food or chips just because to have something in your hand,

Although you don't really feel like hungry.

So many times,

Yeah.

That is such a,

Like it's also perpetuated by a lot of branding and the way we should live our lives.

So it's all over news,

All over advertisements.

It's like,

Oh,

Happy family sitting next to the TV,

Watching TV together or with the popcorn,

Food,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

So it's kind of,

It's created this narrative around what is okay and what is not okay.

So for example,

When you see people doing it,

You're like,

Oh,

That's okay.

But actually it might not be okay.

Actually,

Why not we look at it in a different way?

Why not we look at it,

If you want to watch something,

Set aside some time to watch it.

So if you want to watch Reels,

Which is fantastic by the way,

And we'll talk about this because technology we should embrace because we are going to be living in technology unless you want to relinquish everything,

Move into the wilderness.

I mean,

That's also a great lifestyle.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing,

But we need to engage with technology.

So instead of not instead of doing this mindlessly,

As in you're using less of your mind,

Not mindless,

Engage with your full mind.

So if you want to watch Reels,

Just spend half an hour watching Reels and then stop after half an hour.

I know it's very difficult in the beginning.

So maybe start with maybe five minutes of that practice.

And then when you do it,

You're like,

Oh,

Okay.

Now I feel okay.

And then you increase or decrease depending on your level.

So when you do it mindfully,

It's a different way of approaching your addictive tendencies.

True.

And this kind of brings it to the point where it's the setup of your environment because you allow us,

You allow yourself to be conditioned.

And the same thing goes especially since it's a personal experience now,

Especially when I lived in the UK,

In London,

There was so much noise on the street when you leave,

Walk outside,

Or you go to the tube.

I just got so used to having headphones and things in my ear.

So it means a podcast is a book or music.

At that point,

When I would just come back home,

I would just feel exhausted because my brain was just overstimulated.

And at the same thing,

I realized when even I was going for a walk in the park,

I would just plug in headphones because it just became a habit.

And it's not necessarily just like what you used before,

Like going back to your point.

When you use it mindfully,

It's a different thing when you're actively learning or listening to something.

It just becomes to block out the noise.

Because don't get me wrong,

I love music.

There's the research that shows you that listening to X amount of songs will help you to improve your mood,

Bring you more creativity,

Etc.

Which is like,

Fine.

But then again,

If you just do it out of the habit,

The question is like,

How does it actually serve you?

And how do you get into these things?

So for example,

You mentioned that you feel like you say that you're a person who suffers from addiction.

So when did you start to see that I have an issue here?

First signs is you'll get feedback from people around you.

Number one sign.

You will deny it,

But you'll get feedback.

You'll be asked more questions about this.

And one of the most wake-up calls,

One of the most starking issues I found put me in my spot was like at work people would refer me as to this guy who lives in the pub.

This guy always likes this pub.

This guy always has a beer in his hand.

This guy always has.

.

.

He's a fun guy,

But he's in the pub.

Oh,

Nikhil is here.

He's probably hung over again.

At that time,

I took it as,

Oh,

It's just banter.

Yeah,

They don't have anything else to talk about.

And that exactly was the point.

They did not know me,

And they didn't have anything else to talk about.

So they talked about the most obvious thing,

Which is what we do with all human beings.

So when I meet you for the first time,

I don't know anything about you.

So I'll probably talk about.

.

.

I don't know what I've talked about when I met you for the first time,

But probably something which may be really obvious for everyone.

Something like,

Where do you work?

Which department?

Or something.

Or what do you do?

And then,

Over time,

You build that understanding,

And then when I see you do things like yoga,

Etc.

,

I go,

Okay,

Yoga.

Okay,

That's yoga.

So you're the yoga person.

And when people referred me to that beer person,

That was kind of.

.

.

Oh,

Interesting.

They don't call anyone else this.

So,

That didn't change my behavior instantly,

But that was the first sign.

So just check your surroundings.

Understand what people are saying about you.

Maybe even asking one of your closest friends openly,

And maybe just having a chat with them.

Not specifically about this,

Just reaching out,

Saying like,

Okay,

Let's have a chat.

Let's have an open session.

What do I notice about you?

What do you notice about me?

Do you think I need to do certain things?

And,

Yeah,

Use your wise instincts to understand what to do after that.

After that is a big,

Big story.

How do you get out of addiction?

That's a fascinating journey for me.

I had a 15-year smoking habit,

Which I quit overnight.

I had a 20-year alcohol addiction,

Again,

Which I quit not overnight,

But stages.

So,

The first step is always awareness.

Once you are aware,

Then you need to work on the mindset.

What I learned was amazing.

You make your habits,

Then the habits make you.

So,

You make your habits as in,

I decided one day,

Even when I was drinking a lot.

One day,

I said,

I'm going to refer myself as a non-drinker.

I read about this.

I understood a lot about this.

There's a few books and I would recommend amazing.

There's one with Annie Grace.

Annie Grace wrote this,

This Naked Mind.

It's a wonderful book,

Which opened my eyes.

I'm going to refer myself as a non-smoker.

That was a game-changer for me.

That's interesting.

We have already heard those books.

I know it's for people who are interested.

I think it's actually said,

When you started describing yourself,

When we worked together,

That's actually true.

You spent a lot of time in the pub.

I was completely opposite.

I was trying to get you all to come to pub with me because I was addicted.

I was like,

I need my fix and I don't want to feel such a loser.

I want somebody else to be there.

This is another thing which I learned about addiction.

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety.

It's connection.

You feel a loss of connection.

That's why you get addicted.

Once I understood it,

I'm not chasing after alcohol.

I am not chasing after alcohol because it's an addictive substance.

There's a substance element.

Actually,

What I'm referring to is connecting with people and having meaningful conversations,

Having joy,

Fun,

Etc.

That changed my perspective.

This is interesting.

Yet,

I was fully immersed in all these activities.

It's not like I changed overnight.

There was something in the mindset changed.

I started referring to myself as a non-drinker.

People used to laugh.

I used to have bottles in my hand and I'd be like,

I'm a non-drinker.

Today,

I'm just drinking.

Just like the opposite.

If you tell somebody who's drinking a lot,

They're like,

I'm having an off day.

I'm not drinking today.

Use that same principle with alcohol.

For me,

It was life-changing,

Hopefully,

Because the trajectory I was going was completely opposite.

What I wanted to go and what I wanted to do were completely opposite.

The other thing is creating a vision for your future.

Okay.

No,

No,

Continue.

Again,

I can relate to certain things,

But not to the extent.

This is really interesting how someone overcomes or because for me,

I have the perception that alcohol is bad from very,

Very early days.

Unfortunately,

Where I'm from,

There's a lot of people in not immediate family,

But in family in general that suffered from alcoholism for years.

I saw what happened to their families.

The same thing goes how friends in university got hooked too much into partying and such,

How that affected their lives.

For me,

Whenever I look at alcohol,

I still have this negative association with it.

For me,

It's not this is the thing to do this.

This is why for me,

It's really interesting because yes,

I will have I appreciate a good glass of wine or two,

Cocktail now and then,

But for me,

It's not like I open a bottle of wine on a Friday night,

That bottle of wine will be gone the same day.

It's like I opened a bottle of wine last weekend,

Had one glass,

The bottle is still corked,

Closed in,

Standing at the back of the cupboard.

Maybe I will have a glass of wine tonight and that's it.

This is where it comes in really interesting to hear your backstory,

To say this is your situation.

We're going to go back in some other episodes where how alcohol lives in our cultures,

But it's really interesting how you actually say,

How you disassociate,

How you look,

The reasoning why,

Because I think people refer to addictions and let's say,

Alcoholics or food because they are either escaping or dynamics.

And that's really fascinating for you to hear and say what's your vision for the future?

And that vision brings you back in to hear what I need to do now in order to get A,

B,

C and then you look into habits,

Which is 100% agree,

So this morning I travelled for work for a few days and obviously my food,

My exercise wasn't there,

Obviously I had not my usual food.

There's like a glass of wine and etc.

And I didn't feel like waking up this morning early.

I didn't wake up and feel like waking up at 6 o'clock,

Doing my morning routine,

Getting ready for this like doing yoga.

I was just like I just want to sleep.

I still put myself out.

Hence,

This is the habit.

So I feel much better but at the same time,

100% agree it's such a it's such a finicky thing to slip into easily and I think most,

In my opinion probably I do that quite a lot.

So what you're sharing is really from you.

So I'm like okay,

I'm making a note of that.

And also a question then,

Follow up.

Did you feel that people were facilitating your habit back then?

Yes and no.

I think sometimes they were,

Like I was looking for an excuse.

I was so hooked on addiction and I think it was good to just talk about the distinction between habit and addiction because often we combine the both.

Habit is something like brushing your teeth.

It's a habit you have formed.

You don't particularly you might feel good,

Feel good but you still do it.

Addiction is you feel bad if you don't do it.

And that is the problem.

So you get the cravings,

You get the pangs.

Nobody gets unless you're told your breath stinks.

Nobody gets the pang of I should brush my teeth.

You get told.

So it's not like if you don't do it.

For example,

If you are going to another habit,

It could be I have coffee at this time of the morning.

That's a habit.

And also habit could be drinking something every morning at that time.

Addiction is the caffeine which gives you that buzz which you feel addicted to and that substance keeps you addicted.

Caffeine is addictive.

We can talk about caffeine we can talk about caffeine also.

But coming back to the point of distinction between habit and addiction.

Going to the gym.

Yoga practice is a habit.

So you do your yoga practice.

You do your mindfulness meditation as a habit.

How does that become an addiction?

That only becomes an addiction when you start to feel when you are not doing it the craving to do it.

The craving in the sense of everything in your being is like you feel on edge.

But having said that the addictive substances changes your brain as well.

So if you are internally looking at the dopamine addiction these exercises,

These are all good for you.

So they don't release that much dopamine.

They are more endorphins and they are like other neurochemicals which help you oxytocin and serotonin feel good hormones.

That's what gets released.

But when you are chasing something that's when dopamine is released.

So when you are habituated in certain things there is less dopamine released.

I believe and I think I am right.

But when you are addicted to certain substance,

The chase brings you more dopamine plus the substance and then you become an addiction.

It becomes an addictive substance.

There is a wonderful book about this again called Dopamine Nation.

It's by it's powerful.

Once you read it you get,

Oh my goodness,

You get addiction internally.

Please have a read through about that.

Coming back to the connection.

Yes,

I think because I was addicted I felt I don't know,

I felt I felt I was in control.

That was the biggest misunderstanding.

I felt I was in control.

I was like I don't do it as much.

I start justifying even when people clearly around me don't do it as regularly and I'm like still justifying it by like 2 pints 3 pints.

What's the worst that can happen?

What's the worst that can happen?

It's like you can have liver cirrhosis.

We have this saying in Lithuanian you suddenly turn into not one day of drinking but it turns out into a week of drinking.

So you don't have a break.

There's a word for that which is basically called illiterability.

It's called dogedienes which means it's just extended and it can last for a week,

Two weeks,

Three weeks and then someone is like okay this is not and then they kind of pause.

I've been on the worst one.

I've been maybe one month of complete.

Every day maybe every day I would have minimum 4 pints in the afternoon and one bottle of wine in the night for one month straight.

I thought that was normal.

That was like my this is normal behavior.

That's a lot of alcohol.

Totally agree.

This was coming towards the end.

Towards the end of my awakening change.

Again,

All this I was doing based off this one principle I planted in my head saying I'm a non-drinker.

Even when I was drinking like this my family is saying you said you are stopping alcohol.

I said yeah,

Non-drinker.

So what?

That has had a major effect because if at that moment if I challenged my own thought,

If I said I can never do this or if I said I can never be a non-drinker.

Look at me,

I'm drinking.

That would have flipped the narrative and I would have hung on.

Mindfulness has been a big part of it.

Practicing self-kindness,

Compassion,

All these amazing things has helped me to form that.

Addictions,

It was my modern day addiction for example.

Thankfully I didn't have many other addictions.

I know a lot of people are in different places and different experiences but now whenever I get start to habituate in certain things,

I am starting to become aware.

Even Jim now,

Even Jim is getting borderline addictive and I can see it.

When I'm not doing it,

I feel so bad and I'm craving it and these are signs.

I'm not saying going to gym is bad.

Of course not.

What I'm saying is do it with awareness,

Intention.

So once you lose that once the gym owns you then it's a different game.

You might look good on your Instagram post but internally you might be really in a very bad place.

This is again,

We touched up very nicely.

This is again a different form of habitual doing things in a way that you just feel like there's something really off to do this.

My thing is probably the one thing I can relate is the screen time.

I think I'm like everyone else in here.

For me,

I tend to when I spend time with friends I tend to put my phone away.

Let's say if I'm having food I leave my phone downstairs or if I'm having lunch most of the time if I don't have pockets I will leave my phone on the plate but I will cover it with a napkin or in a tray at work.

I put it on a tray and a napkin so I don't look at my phone because I don't look at messages that come in.

I don't look at my phone as much.

If it's something important,

Obviously people will alert me.

Messages are fine if something really happens,

Call me because during the work hours call me because I know that's a thing and I will message you or call you back.

That's the one thing.

It's really weird because I never analysed or brought that much awareness to my use of technology so that's going to be my weekend plan to see if I can last with no screen for 8 hours.

But then my mind goes I'm underlingo.

I have almost 300 days of sleep.

But that's the thing.

I try to do Spanish.

So I spend,

I think around 100,

200 80 or something days in around that.

70 or 80 there.

And the thing is it just became such a habit.

I will do a practice in the morning for just then.

So that in the evening when I do a full normal class for 20 minutes,

Half an hour that I have extra points.

Gamification.

This is what casinos do to get you to do slots.

Exact same principle.

It's like they do these slot machines because they keep making you do it.

There's like a reward.

You've done this.

You're almost there.

And then you keep doing it.

The thing is I know this is not a addiction but I know it's such a habit because even yesterday I was waiting from my left back into Dublin.

I was like okay I'll have five minutes.

I took out my phone so instead of going to wherever socials or emails,

I was like I have five minutes so I just put on Duolingo and I did one class and I was able to put away all on the way drive.

My phone was in the back for entire drive.

So again,

I kind of have in a way healthy relationship but at the same time I think it's just like too much.

Yeah,

Is it affecting?

Is it like Learning a language is a wonderful thing.

And you need dedication.

You need time.

You need to prepare.

Yeah,

That is not an addiction.

That is just learning process.

And of course they're using because the app wants you to come back to it every time.

They create some gamifications to help boost that dopamine hits for you so that you come back more.

But if the end product is you learn a new language absolutely why not?

The dopamine is not something to be scared of.

I know but in a way I'm just kind of in the way I reacted was because I was like I'm okay probably with leaving my phone I think because I can speak to my parents in the evening instead of like a morning time,

Whatever.

Or I can do things around but I just kind of in my mind will go like okay if I don't have this I will look for the reasons why I cannot do.

And this is the way my brain is wired for like what you do.

If this,

What's this?

Or if this,

Is this?

Especially it's work conditioning.

So from my side because what I do is I need to look holistically at things.

If this happens does it have a knock-on effect on whatever down the pipeline?

How does this impact let's say currently contact center?

How this will impact customer care?

How it will have an impact on whatever?

Or in back office?

So it just kind of and it's not per se.

I don't want to say it's a bad thing but I don't really,

Sometimes I am not aware of when I go into these things.

What if then?

You know.

That's my prediction in a sense.

No,

This is like everyone has everyone has things as you mentioned.

We are all work in progress.

Everybody is working on something.

Right?

And yeah that's it.

Like we are at 38 minutes.

That means either it's good or it's really bad.

I think it's good because I think we touched on a lot of things which hopefully resonates.

We do and it's interesting because we share things that we per se not normally talk about because I never asked about alcohol.

And then you mentioned you were a smoker and I was like oh actually yeah you were but it was like the last few times we saw each other you didn't have a cigarette in your hand and I was like okay that's pretty normal.

The same thing with alcohol.

So I was just like oh yeah that was that and I was like no not now.

So thank you for sharing so openly because it is interesting to see where people come from and how they overcome things.

Definitely.

Thank you for sharing as well.

I think one of the main things I took away is like everybody has their own relationships with certain substances.

My story might not resonate with someone but on the flip side my story might resonate with someone else.

So that's why I encourage you to share,

All of us to share,

Not just you.

Listeners,

To share your stories like talk about it.

Yeah.

And also find someone who can listen to you who you feel comfortable talking to and who will listen to you without going into fix mode.

We love fix mode.

We should do a chapter on fixing mode because that is just I think that is a fix mode.

See?

You see what I did?

I want to fix everything.

I have the solution for everything and then it comes back to the validation and the point you said.

Alright.

The thing is like I know I think we probably want to say wrap this up because I was about to say something and we were just like okay this is long.

No but it is a very interesting and we moved away from your challenges,

Your work.

I briefly thought what is mine.

There's such a thing that we become not aware or we become conditioned and it's just like really interesting topics and there's so many bunch of literature that would be interesting to have the book or someone of certain things on to discuss even more because what we're doing here we just like what you said at the beginning we are just scratching the surface.

Yeah.

I agree.

Totally.

So yeah.

I want to say thank you for having me.

No.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for sharing your experience and hopefully we'll come back with more next time.

Take care everyone and see you later.

Thank you.

Thank you Ilana.

Thanks Nikhil.

Bye.