Linda Modaro & Nelly Kaufer: Reflective Meditation

Hi Nellie,

Hi Linda.

So we're going to be talking about meditation,

But not meditation in isolation,

About a lot of other stuff that has to do with it.

And we're going to be talking,

As you said,

Not just about meditation but about our specific orientation or form of meditation,

Which we coined the name of Reflective Meditation.

And we named it Reflective Meditation because a large part,

Well a part of every,

After every meditation we take 10 minutes or so,

More or less,

To reflect back and really remember what happened in the meditation.

Right,

And not just any kind of memory here,

It's a type of training that we do.

Nellie and I co-authored a book that came out this,

Oh 2023 actually,

Called Reflective Meditation,

Cultivating Kindness and Curiosity in the Buddha's Company.

And it's a really kind and curious remembering,

Reflecting,

That we're trying to do within the meditation practice.

You know Linda,

As you said that it made me put together that we spent probably a decade together in teacher training,

In which we really learned to be kind and curious about our own experience,

Which then has naturally led to us being kind and curious about other people's experience,

Including people who are meditating with us.

And that's really a big part of this,

Isn't it?

That as we develop this kindness and curiosity towards our own meditation,

It naturally flows out to how we regard and relate to other people.

Right,

And Nellie,

It's a great point,

And their experience,

Their life experience,

The conditions of their lives.

And this is the part I'd say that we really value,

Is that each meditator comes to us with their own story,

Their own life,

Lived life.

And that's partly what they're meditating on,

That's what matters to them.

And we're not trying to cut that out of meditation,

So that we learn from people's life experiences,

Just as they're learning.

And through this meditative process,

And then reflecting and talking about it,

It might even at times appear similar to psychotherapy to some people.

Right,

Because we want to just emphasize something as you're talking,

Because it's not something that many people do.

So just that people understand that what we're talking about is there's a moment of meditation,

And then a moment of open space for people to share what happened in the meditation.

And you mentioned kind and curious,

And so reflective goes hand in hand with kind and curious.

There's a space that what happens inside,

To you the meditator,

Matters.

And we welcome people's monkey mind.

I wrote an article called Take Back Monkey Mind,

But I don't even like that term.

But what I'm saying really is that we welcome people's life,

And we welcome their concerns,

We welcome their interests,

We welcome what matters to them,

Etc.

And that's really different,

Because most forms of meditation say,

That's okay,

But really return to a focus object.

And that's better,

Really.

The implication is that's better.

And we're saying,

Let the whole thing in,

And learn to tolerate it.

Which again,

Has some overlaps with psychotherapy,

Because that's what you do in psychotherapy.

You go in and you talk about those things I just mentioned.

Your concerns,

Your problems,

What you value,

What matters,

Etc.

Etc.

And letting that in,

That kind of thing that we normally would like to get rid of,

Those parts of ourselves,

Those experiences that we're trying to,

Let's say,

Create better reactions,

Or less reactions,

Or not react to.

When you bring those into meditation,

Something different happens in that container.

And that's where I'd love to read this paragraph that we wrote from from the book,

And it might be a paraphrase,

But it's pretty close.

The container and structure and structure in psychotherapy differs from reflective meditation.

Therefore,

Different things will happen.

Psychotherapy creates a holding environment.

Clear boundaries are established by the psychotherapist's training and ethical guidelines.

Confidentiality is strongly regulated.

Meditation creates a different kind of holding environment,

One where we're relatively still with the contents of our body-mind,

And over time,

Develop the capacity to hold more internally.

And that's a big deal,

To be able to hold more internally as the whole catastrophe of life,

And it's getting more catastrophic in my sense of things,

You know,

Impacts us.

And of course,

We could say that the goal of psychotherapy is to help the client,

Over time,

Hold more internally.

So the goal is similar,

But it's a different route to get there.

Exactly,

A different container,

A different route.

And there's all kinds of overlaps.

Many people do both.

I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't done both.

I mean,

I wouldn't be here,

And I don't know where I'd be.

But both have really served me,

Is what I'm really getting at.

And I'm a Buddhist.

I call myself a Buddhist-informed psychotherapist.

I went back to graduate school in 1986 in transpersonal psychology,

With an emphasis on Buddhism and psychotherapy,

And went to a school that was heavily Buddhist.

And I went back because I was a meditation teacher before I was a psychotherapist,

And I went back to get more training.

But quite honestly,

I went back because I knew I couldn't support myself adequately,

Simply teaching meditation.

So I needed another career,

And I loved teaching meditation.

So I chose one that was closely aligned,

And I blended them throughout my career,

And in different ways,

Really being very careful and mindful about how I was blending them.

In that respect,

Nellie,

You were thinking about the power structure.

Yes.

Way back then.

Go ahead.

Yes,

Well,

The power structure in many ways,

But the power structure of being a psychotherapist,

Which is a position of power,

And being a meditation teacher,

Which is a position of power.

And so,

In a sense,

It doubles your trouble.

Jingle from way back.

There's also something inherently related to power in the notion of teaching,

Because often the notion of teaching is,

I'm going to show you the right way to do it.

And so,

You want to speak a little bit about how you see power here,

And how you deal with it.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I mean,

I'll jump in just in the sense of,

Our main teaching seems to be done in a conversation with somebody.

So they tell us about their experience in the meditation,

And we ask them questions,

So that they fill out their awareness.

They get to respond from their own sense of,

Where do I want to go with this?

What's important to me?

And that conversation is really anchored in the Dharma teachings.

That's where the Dharma teachings come out,

In plain language,

Everyday language.

People don't say impermanence.

They say,

This is shifting and changing,

And I can't stand it,

And it's really hard.

And then we say,

Oh,

Dukkha.

Then we kind of name some of the teachings that we're hearing.

So rather than telling them what Dukkha is,

They're telling us,

And we're saying,

Oh yeah,

This is part of a whole body of teachings that lead to a path of liberation,

Or awakening,

Or however one talks about that.

You got me excited there.

That was good.

You know,

Another angle on this is that the,

You know,

The term transference,

Which is used in psychotherapy,

That we really sort of need someone to look up to.

We need someone to,

You know,

Project all these things we really aspire to in our life.

But with a meditation teacher,

Again,

It's even stronger because,

You know,

People,

Well,

In certain Buddhist traditions would even say this,

Which is,

You know,

We're,

You know,

The direct path.

We are the enlightened being that will,

They will guide them to liberation.

We are,

You know,

We're very special.

And Linda and I place ourselves as very regular,

Really.

And,

You know,

Another thing,

As you were talking,

I got excited,

Linda,

Too,

Because I feel like the power thing is like our awareness of power and trying to work against the usual power dynamics and Buddhist teachings are sort of integrated into most everything we do.

Because,

Yes,

There's the conversation,

But then we don't give long Dharma talks,

Because if we gave,

We give 10 minute or so Dharma talks,

Because we don't want to lay all our ideas on people.

We want to find out,

We want to lay enough so that it gives them something to go towards or think about or relate to,

But not so much that our ideas of this are sort of,

They're almost hypnotized into them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

We've even started using language of like prompts,

Just something to wet,

Wet the appetite a bit before you meditate,

So that you still have that space to think your own thoughts,

And actually not have to take on our thoughts in the way of the they're right,

And I'm wrong,

Really kind of takes this practice out of,

You know,

The better higher way to meditate and live,

As to there's a lot of ways to meditate and live.

And let's see what happens when we get together and meditate and talk about them.

And if whether this way,

Our way,

Reflective meditations way is a good fit for,

You know,

And then you're welcome.

We,

You know,

We do a daily online meditation every day,

Since March 17,

I don't know,

Around there,

2020,

Since the pandemic hit,

Hit us,

Woke us up,

And we do the online teaching of meditation as well.

And we have different teachers teach.

Linda and I teach for three of the days out of the seven.

And that's another power statement.

Like we are not the end all be all teachers of this approach.

We've trained other teachers,

And they're excellent,

And they can give you a different angle on things.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And so there's two levels there.

One is,

As the teacher,

You're not this superior person who has greater wisdom.

But there's also the idea that the goal itself of meditation is not to reach that.

So there's something and originally,

Buddhism was founded on the idea of getting to some special state and special connection,

Having a different experience.

So do you want to talk a little bit about that transition from the loftier goal to dealing with life?

One of the things that comes in here,

As you say it,

I really feel like we end up in a kind of a middle way,

Which is a Dharma teaching,

Right?

The middle path of,

You know,

Going to some extremes,

Bouncing off them.

And then this middle way has kind of emerged for us.

You know,

At first,

People thought,

Well,

If you just sit in a circle,

You're going to be able to address the power dynamics,

You know,

If or if you just have a peer group,

But dynamics pop up,

No matter what group you're in.

So that we're kind of in this middle of way of,

We're not these special teachers,

But we have stepped up to lead the Sangha.

And we think about the Sangha,

And we think about the teachings,

And we put a lot of time into it.

So in that way,

The effort that we put in is valued,

And cared for,

And,

And it's not always glorious,

Right,

Nellie?

Right,

But it does make us different,

Maybe not special,

But different,

You know,

Because we pour our heart and soul into this.

I've done it for the last 40-50 years,

I don't,

You know,

For whatever karmic reason,

This is my path here in life.

And,

But I don't think I'm a super special being,

I don't have any delusions like that.

And,

But I do think I poured my heart and soul into it.

And that matters.

And that's sort of more the middle way that you're speaking of.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not opposite day.

It's not saying,

Okay,

We do away with authority,

Nobody has authority.

And,

Which is actually just an invitation to anarchy and to a certain kind of authority taking over.

But this is about,

You know,

Here I am,

And this is what I have to say.

And if you're interested,

You know,

We're going to find a way to do it.

Yeah.

Precisely.

Yeah.

And people tend to take that up and become their own teachers.

And we hear a lot of wisdom come back.

In our book,

We put voices of the community because they are,

I mean,

People have things to say when you let them go internally and learn about their lives and their own wisdom develop.

And it really creates a different kind of sangha than a head teacher that's telling us about their experience and their new ideas and their,

Their thoughts,

And kind of giving us that outline.

And then saying thank you and going on.

We are much more relational,

Much more interrelated and interconnected in that way.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So it is mind blowing that actually,

There could have been a time when people thought about meditation,

Separate from relationality.

Yeah,

Yes.

And,

You know,

That comes back to psychotherapy too,

You know,

Psychotherapy's also gone,

Well,

At least psychoanalysis has gone into a much more interrelational thing.

I think psychotherapy has in general.

So we understand that we,

Going back to conditionality,

Which is our core teaching,

That are the people in our lives who are close to us or who matter to us,

Are strong conditions for who we perceive,

Who we become,

Who we perceive ourselves to be,

What we do in our life,

And how we grow and develop,

Or vice versa.

I want to invite you to talk more about conditionality.

This is that sense of,

You know,

Everything is interrelated,

And it's not an abstraction,

That it really manifests in very practical ways.

Yeah,

Very,

I mean,

Very practical.

And that's,

I think,

The basis of where a practice can actually be seen,

Like what we're doing is we're putting people into conditionality.

By having them talk about what happened in meditation,

They're naming the conditions.

They're looking at how things came together,

How things dropped,

How things escalated,

What views are in there,

What sankharas or patterns and habits.

And that conversation becomes about the conditions of their life.

And really,

What gets learned from conditionality is important,

Because it breaks down this idea of,

I did the wrong thing.

You did the wrong thing.

I feel really terrible.

And,

You know,

You can't believe that so much anymore,

When you talk about your life and conditionality.

Well,

I'm going to use that as an opportunity to go back into the psychotherapy overlaps,

Which is,

So many people come into psychotherapy,

Just feeling really bad about themselves,

Or alternately,

Pumping themselves up,

Because they feel so bad about themselves on some unconscious level,

Or unaware level,

If we're going to use the terms of Buddhism.

But that,

Breaking that,

Getting rid of that,

Really,

Because you can't see the world that way anymore,

Because it's not just all about what I did or didn't do.

There are so many other things at play.

And that's not a conceptual understanding.

That takes years,

Actually,

For it to be deeply,

Experientially known,

And that it would eradicate,

In most cases,

That view that I'm the problem,

I did it,

I'm bad at my core,

Etc.

And that's a big one.

That's how many of us are in great pain and suffering.

Right,

Right.

So the transition from saying,

I am this,

I am angry,

I'm nasty,

I am selfish,

Whatever,

To noticing under these conditions,

This is how I act.

And under those conditions,

This is how I act.

Right,

Right,

Right,

Exactly.

And I mean,

I want to bring in that the Buddhist teachings of the conceits,

Which is this I am,

I mean,

The I am,

In the framework of the teachings is the last thing to go.

I mean,

We're going to be dealing with this for our lifetime.

Like and how much I we need to practice to deal with this,

Because you go back there like this.

And all of us do.

I don't know anybody who that doesn't happen to.

And so we're not trying to transcend that,

Or get kind of totally out of that.

We're trying to see,

How do we work with that?

How does that change?

How does that drop away?

I appreciate you saying that,

Because I realized after what I said,

It could lead to the misunderstanding that it can go away completely.

And I actually,

And actually,

What's more true is what you just said.

I noticed that under very stressful situations,

Boom,

It's back.

But I know how to reflect on it.

And it doesn't stay as long,

Because I've built that capacity to reflect.

And I then flip into seeing the conditions.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And so you introduced the notion of similarities and differences with psychotherapy.

And again,

We find a similarity here,

Which is that ability to contain,

To regulate,

To have that greater equanimity under stress.

And it's developed in that container of developing the capacity to observe ourselves,

And made easier when we can share it instead of being in isolation with it.

Mm-hmm.

And sharing it and normalizing it.

Like,

Hey,

That person spoke about that very same thing I've been embarrassed about.

So I like her.

Maybe I'm okay,

Too.

Yeah.

I mean,

That was overly simplified,

But yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Really?

I mean,

That's,

Yeah.

Go ahead,

Serge.

No,

I just,

You and I had talked a little bit before Nellie had come on,

Is about the safety in a sangha,

Or the kind of feeling comfort,

Or tended to.

And when you hear other people talk about things that you go through and it's normalized,

You feel a lot safer and more friendly,

And a spiritual path,

Spiritual friends grow that way.

I also wanted to touch on,

Here at Pine Street Sangha,

We each have our separate sanghas and a lot of overlap.

Sounds similar to what we're saying about reflective meditation and psychotherapy,

Distinctions and overlaps.

At any rate,

We teach continuing education workshops to psychotherapists.

And we've been doing this for,

I've been doing it for over 20 years.

And really,

We,

You know,

And their ethics workshops,

Because,

You know,

Ethics are so important in both traditions.

They're core.

Nothing can,

I take extreme,

Make an extreme statement,

I might question it later,

But I don't know if much positive can develop in either,

Over the long term,

If there's real ethical issues underlying what's going on.

It's going to be a showstopper at some point.

So,

In our continuing education workshops,

Ah,

I got to it,

Stress,

That word stress,

Psychotherapists are under enormous amount of stress these days.

And part of what we do is help them be with their,

Sit and meditate,

Do reflective meditation and be with their experience of what it's like to practice with so much distress going on in people's lives and in the world,

And such pressures on the therapist,

And to then,

In a way,

Do the same thing,

Be with one another,

Hear from one another,

Hear our similarities in a short-term sangha together.

And that seems to work really well for both of our sanghas,

And I think,

Serge,

You could probably attest to this,

As groups of people that come to get together,

Smaller groups that get to know each other and have a kind of intimacy or relational practice that they're doing together.

It's a real bond.

It's a real,

You know,

A real raft that helps us,

You know,

Swim these really choppy waters.

And we have,

We both have a lot of small groups,

And then we have one larger group,

But long-term friendships develop,

And people have been practicing together for 10,

20,

So years.

Yeah,

I want to maybe restate in some way something that you've mentioned,

Alluded to,

That the goal shifts from achieving a certain way of being to actually noticing the range of ways we human beings can exist and have more kindness and tolerance for the way it is in others as well as it is for ourselves.

Yes,

And we could say that is anatta,

Or the teaching of having,

We don't like the term no-self because we think self,

We all have,

You know,

Lots of selves,

But we would go more in that direction,

Or this fluidity of self would be really how we state it.

And so,

You know,

Go ahead,

Linda.

No,

It's just so interesting because it could be the teaching of anatta,

Could be the teaching of interdependence,

It could be the teaching of conditionality that you just said there.

I mean,

And that's part of the conversation is we're looking for ways that we can,

You know,

Really talk about these teachings more deeply with each other.

I feel like we got a chance to do that with you today.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And we love doing it.

It's really fun for us.

It is fun.

This is our form of fun.

No,

I see how the two of you have a built-in way of being in conversation with each other.

Yeah,

And I felt like I was doing,

And also I was aware that I was enacting the way of being together when Linda said,

I said something about,

You know,

I can't remember what it was,

And then Linda said something else,

And I realized that she corrected me.

And I was happy about that because,

You know,

What a relief to get this more clearly stated.

Yeah,

And Nellie asked me to start talking weekly 15,

20 years ago in our training.

She says,

Hey,

Would you want to have a weekly conversation?

And I'm like,

Oh,

All right.

And it's developed.

I mean,

This is like a long-term conversation we've been having.

So you're also seeing something that's developed over time.

And there is a lot of trust and confidence in the way we're going to,

You know,

Converse.

Yeah,

And you know,

Part of that is that I love collaboration.

It's my best food,

Best emotional food for me is collaboration.

And I sort of,

I spotted you and thought you were a good one for this,

And I was right.

But it really does go back to my feminist roots and my roots about power.

Collaboration,

And I've written four books,

And I've co-authored every one except the first one.

There was five of us who authored it.

I've never written it alone because,

I mean,

Something about collaboration really does change the power dynamic.

It doesn't fix the possibility for abuse of power,

But it really sort of broadens it out.

So in a way,

As you're saying that,

We're shifting the focus from meditation,

And here's a special kind of meditation that happens to be reflective,

To saying,

You know,

Our experience of life is that life works better in a collaborative mode.

And so why not do meditation in that mode as well?

I like that.

And I would say for us,

And I would say for many people,

I still find some people don't easily collaborate,

And they're better loners or,

You know,

Independent thinkers.

I think what I would ask from them is just be clear about that.

Just be clear that this isn't a collaborative effort.

This is my effort,

And I really want it to be mine.

And to me,

There's something that's also part of collaboration is the clarity of what we're doing,

Trying to be more clear and transparent.

Well,

You just spoke to another core part of our practice,

Which is self-honesty.

Be honest about where you're at as much as you're able.

Be honest about what happened in meditation rather than,

In my early training,

I was in a large meditation hall,

And the teacher would call on us,

And I would both hide.

I found a way to hide in the meditation hall.

I'd hide behind somebody else where I thought she wouldn't see me.

But also,

I would think about what she wanted to hear and try to give it back to her.

We're doing the opposite.

We're asking people to say what actually happened to their comfort level,

Not beyond it.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

So that notion of how important it is to have safety and respect.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's probably a very modern thing.

Probably in the Buddhist time,

It was different.

Yeah.

It's our culture.

Actually,

We're trying to create a culture of that,

And we are by doing it,

Because it's becoming more practiced than when I first started meditating,

This collaborative,

Kind and caring,

Listening to everybody's voices rather than the sole teacher.

So that's why it's so important to say it so that those of us who value it feel like they're not alone.

So we're talking at some point,

And before recording this,

About that concept of a larger sangha.

We're all part of it.

And that knowing that you exist,

And this other person exists,

And this person,

And they all value this,

The concept of collaborating,

Creating safety,

Having clear boundaries or clear delineations of power where it is instead of obfuscating it,

You know,

That all of this is very much part of what we're trying to create and finding support that others exist to do that.

It's so nice to meet you and have this conversation.

Just want to check.

I feel like a good place to end,

But I want to see if you have anything that you might want to add.

I think we came to a natural ending.

Yeah,

Me too.

Thank you.