Joy In The Void With Maureen Magauran, M.D.

So,

Maureen,

Start us off with your lost story,

If you could.

Yeah.

Well,

I,

Um,

Just after Christmas this year,

My youngest sister,

Marty,

Or Martha,

She passed away unexpectedly.

It was pretty much a shock.

Um,

We'd all been together,

Have a big family,

11 brothers and sisters,

And she's the baby.

She's the youngest.

So,

Um,

Just was not something we were expecting at all.

She wasn't feeling well and turns out had a ruptured brain aneurysm and passed away pretty quickly.

And so,

Um,

There was a sense of shock and disbelief.

And even though it's been,

You know,

Almost nine months now on some level,

There's a kind of like,

It's hard to believe it's still sinking in.

Sure.

I totally hear that.

And I'm,

I'm so sorry for that because in the grand,

In the grand order of things or in nature,

When people look at siblings and families,

There's a quote unquote order of how people are quote unquote supposed to die or supposed to leave us.

And especially when it comes to the youngest of us,

They're not supposed to go first.

You know what I mean?

It's kind of like the children before parents kind of rule that exists in our culture.

So how did that affect your family?

It sounds like one of the first losses that you ever experienced altogether.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was interesting because,

You know,

Some friends of mine had posted this thing about like blue Christmas being sad when someone passed away.

And I remember thinking,

Oh,

I can't really relate to that because I haven't had any.

And then,

You know,

Not knowing that I would know quickly what that was like,

But essentially waves of shock,

Disbelief.

I think it was,

It's hard for all of us.

We miss her tremendously.

She has so much life and an amazing person.

Love her so much.

And I think it was really hardest for my mother.

Like you're saying the expectation is that you're going to,

She would go first.

And so there is a definite sense of,

Of loss.

And you know,

I think the thing about it that's been interesting is that it didn't,

It didn't actually go the way for me that I thought it would in terms of grieving.

It was a very different experience than I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Well,

Essentially,

You know,

I'd always had a fear of death or someone dying.

I'd actually had some dreams before I would wake up in a panic that one of my sisters had died and it was always the same kind of black loss,

Emptiness,

You know,

It's gone.

And the thing with her was like pretty quickly after she died,

It was like,

I could really feel her.

I could really feel her presence.

And I've done a lot of meditating.

I've meditated for the last 10 years.

And so after I heard she died,

I sat down with a friend of mine and I really could feel her,

But I felt this joy.

Like I felt the sense of joy in her and it was kind of confusing because I thought here,

This is terrible.

I'm grieving,

But I'm feeling this joy in her.

And so I was like,

Wow.

You know,

And just going with that,

Of course,

You know,

There were tears in their sadness,

But there was also this sense,

Which I still feel of her being okay and of feeling her kind of being able to kind of access a sense of her.

And it's almost like a sense of she's in another place and she's okay.

And like she said,

It sent that,

That message back.

So that was like a really profound thing for me.

And then part of my meditation training,

There's a book that's called Death,

The Great Journey.

And so I started reading to that,

Listening to the audio portions of it again.

And there's one segment that you can actually read aloud to the person who's passed,

Who's died,

The deceased.

And it's a sense of sort of helping them ease a transition into the next phase,

Whatever that is.

And as I read that to her,

It was more of that sense of really feeling her and feeling this sense of,

It wasn't always joy.

There was sometimes there was chaos,

But there was an overall sense of something positive and that she was moving to another place.

And I really got the sense that there's more to life,

That there's another stage after life,

And that's where she is and that she had just simply gone first.

And so it really took away that fear of blackness and gone and I can't connect to like,

Oh,

She's there and I will be there.

I will die at some point.

And so it sort of took away a lot of the fear of death and it really brought forward,

Well,

Then what am I doing in my life and what do I want to do and what's important and how can I honor her and the love that I felt in her in my life.

And so part of that's been speaking about her and what I received and learned in this experience.

That book,

I just wrote it down,

Death,

The Great Journey,

Sounds really powerful for you and I kind of got a humorous visualization of story time for the dead.

But how did your relationship with her in life shift or change or inform the relationship you had with her when she died?

Because it sounds like your connection with her was almost instantaneous.

Yeah,

Well,

In terms of the book,

The part that you read aloud,

It's based on the Tibetan book of the dead.

So it's actually,

You know,

Centuries old thing where they actually kind of,

You know,

They've studied it and,

You know,

It's a different,

You know,

It's an Eastern tradition,

But it's really beautiful.

It's definitely something I recommend to people to take a look at and it really helps you question things.

But I was always really close to her.

We were three years apart.

She's three years younger and we played aisaki together.

So a lot of our childhood we spent together,

We were very close.

And as we got older,

She lived on an island called Block Island,

Which is off of Rhode Island and she was actually captain of the rescue squad.

She was an EMT and it was something she was very proud of and she took very seriously.

So unfortunately it meant I didn't get to see her as often because she was often on call,

Like she couldn't leave the island and she was actually on call the night that she passed away.

When I was able to connect with her,

Yeah,

I felt her spirit almost instantly.

I felt this sense of her.

And I also felt this sense of her almost more so even than I felt her at times.

I feel like sometimes in life we get bogged down with being busy and obligations and things,

But this way that I felt her and their spirit was very free and it was very joyful and it was like,

This is her essence.

This is her beauty.

This is who she is.

It was really,

Really clear to me.

I felt this sense almost as she was holding something for me as I was wanting to do something for her after she died.

When someone dies you always wish that you would have said something or done something differently or averted the whole experience.

But obviously that didn't happen and doesn't happen.

Was there anything that was left uncommunicated between you two before she died?

Well,

I mean,

I think it's,

I mean,

Mostly what I often feel is that I just want to say,

I love you.

I mean,

We did say it to each other,

But it's like,

I just want to say it again.

You know,

And I want to hug her.

I want to hold her.

It's like,

Cause I do love her.

And it's just that thing when you're with someone and you tell them that you love them and they,

You know,

You make eye contact and you feel it,

You know,

It's like sort of wanting more of that.

Although,

You know,

At some level I do feel like I say that to her all the time,

You know,

And I,

And I feel it reciprocated as well.

After her death,

Kind of that period of,

Of readjusting without her,

What has that been like for you and what has it been like for your family?

Are you out to your family as someone who still keeps in touch with your sister through these means or is that relationship with her kind of under wraps?

No,

I think,

I think a lot of us feel her all the time.

You know,

I think it's,

Um,

I mean,

I think obviously there's a whole,

You know,

There's a,

There's a wound,

There's a sadness,

There's a,

There's a missing her that's very intense,

Especially at certain times.

Um,

I went out to the islands,

Um,

This summer and it was incredibly difficult because every time that I went out there,

She was always at the ferry.

She was always smiling.

She couldn't wait.

She was just so excited just to have us come visit.

And so there was this massive emptiness.

It was like,

Oh,

There's nobody here to greet me.

And it was like,

You know,

So,

So obvious and you know,

She's going to the graveyard to see her is not where I want to go,

But that's,

You know,

Where this symbol,

You know,

It's where she's buried.

Um,

So there's definitely like a big emptiness,

A missing.

And I feel like that is,

You know,

It's those,

I think that's the thing about grief,

At least my experience is like,

It's not like it's linear.

And so it's sort of comes up some time really strong.

It's like,

Oh,

You know,

Really missing her.

I really want to be with her.

I really want to share something with her or tell her something or,

You know,

That kind of thing.

And um,

It's,

It's difficult because I think a lot of,

It's uncomfortable for people to talk about death or to feel that pain of missing someone.

And so,

You know,

We talk about her and we miss her and you know,

I feel so much for her kids just want to do whatever I can for them to kind of,

You know,

Keep her spirit alive and to them to know how much,

You know,

We love her and we love them.

So there's a definite sense of missing her here,

Her,

Her physical self in terms of get togethers and uh,

You know,

Jokes and it feels like it's getting,

You know,

As time goes on,

It gets a little bit lighter and it gets a little bit more real.

It's amazing how I find how your mind can play tricks on you where it's like,

No,

She's not,

She didn't die.

Even though you went through the whole funeral and experience,

It's like,

No,

She's just,

She's on the island,

You know,

And kind of like wanting to believe that.

I want to ask with your work in psychiatry and meditation,

What do you do with the void?

I know you said this,

This life without her here that seems like a void.

There's definitely a black hole that's kind of missing for all of you.

So what do you maybe mentally or emotionally or energetically,

Do you move the void?

Do you look at it?

Do you not look at it?

Do you put it somewhere?

How do you interact with it?

That's a great question.

I mean,

For me in my experience and the meditation and uh,

You know,

Emotional work,

Energetic work,

It's like the void is something that's always there.

It's it's,

I feel it's something as part of being human.

It's something that we all have.

You know,

In a sense it's a separation from,

From the divine,

From where we came from.

And so it gets triggered all the time in life.

You know,

Breakups,

Loss,

Death,

Um,

Smaller levels as well.

And so I've actually been working for years on ways to deal with that and to sort of stay with it and to open to it.

And there's a sense of like healing that comes in.

Like for me,

I strongly believe I have a strong spiritual beliefs that there's,

There's more than us here and that there's a lot of healing that we can receive by opening to that,

To the divine God,

Whatever words you use.

And so I feel like when I feel the pain of Martha,

I actually mostly feel my love and I feel how intense the love is for her.

And then there's a sense of staying with that.

And if it's crying,

If it's whatever it is that comes with it,

And then I start to feel,

I feel a sense of her presence and I feel a sense of the divine.

So for me it's a sense of healing through that way,

Sort of,

It's not actually doing anything.

It's definitely not running from it.

It's it's um,

Being with it because it's,

It shifts,

It changes,

It opens into something else.

And then I feel like that takes me more forward into the world.

And then I want to say to people,

I love you and I want to be really present and I want to really,

You know,

Make the most of life.

And I,

And I feel like the biggest gift I can do for Marty is to,

To do that,

To,

To,

To bring that to life.

I feel like that was the essence of her anyway.

She was so giving and caring and loving,

Um,

That it's an opportunity to really be present.

Grief is a practice to be present.

I absolutely love that.

It's one of the hardest things that we train or can train ourselves to do as humans because it's hard.

It feels like crap.

It doesn't,

It doesn't initially feel like love when you're leaning into it.

It feels like pain,

Pain,

Pain,

Pain,

Pain.

And it sucks.

You know,

I'm wondering,

There's a lot of,

Um,

A lot of people who sit in the camp of you grieve for as much as you love the person like your love and your grief are in perfect ratio,

Which is why you grieve so hard when you have loved so hard.

And there are some people who say that grief is totally separate from love,

Which is why they feel so different.

What are your thoughts on the relationship between grief and love and how they interact with each other in our lives?

I guess I've never really thought about it in that framework because in some level,

Like the comparison feels maybe arbitrary to me,

But I mean,

I guess I would say in when I was grieving,

When she died,

I was struck with the amount of love that I felt for her.

I mean,

I feel like ultimately grief is like a loss or a disconnection from love at some level and there's that wanting for it in the meditation school.

We often think of it as a wound,

Like it's a really deep wound that's like a natural part of being human and people have many different ways of trying to fill it,

Whether they're eating or drinking or drugs or,

You know,

Exercising.

They're different ways,

But it's like fundamentally there's something deep inside us that's,

That's like wanting something and from a spiritual perspective,

It's sort of reconnecting with the divine,

With God,

With something bigger than us.

So I've often on the option B,

The Facebook group page,

And I do see sometimes that it seems like people may compare grief or how much do you love and it just seems to me kind of all irrelevant in a way,

Like it's so individual and it's really just finding your pathway,

Like finding your way to healing.

I mean it is actually a lot of what I do with my clients as well and it's,

Whether it's around death or not,

I just think that it's a fundamental human thing.

It's part of our vulnerability.

It's part of our being and so it's something that I work within them in terms of as they connect with something bigger than themselves and they can trust and they can let go and they can feel supported and feel loved.

It changes things.

And so for me,

Like when my sister died and I really felt her presence,

It wasn't actually the first time it happened.

The meditation teacher in the school that I study at had passed away in the fall and he had such an open attitude,

Just like in the Tibetan book of living and dying,

There was this sense of they're going to meet something,

That there is another stage,

There's a strong belief.

And after he passed,

I could feel his presence as well.

And I had my brother-in-law passed away shortly after my sister and he'd had cancer for some time and he'd had a near death experience.

When he was 13,

He'd fallen into a frozen lake and he'd said it was,

You know,

It really changed his life that in that experience he felt this bright light,

This warmth felt really welcomed.

And then he was pulled out.

And so as he was facing death with cancer,

He said,

I've seen the face of God.

I'm not afraid,

Not in a hurry,

But I'm not afraid.

And you know,

Within six months,

These three deaths,

Like it just felt like it sort of really solidified something for me about my belief in the afterlife and something next.

So it helps with the grieving in terms of that sense of,

You know,

Everybody dies.

We're all going to die.

We're going to kind of deny that fact,

But so that it is part of life.

And so when it's looked at in terms of that continuum,

It has a very different feel to it.

It doesn't mean we don't miss the person.

Of course we do,

But it just feels a little bit different.

It's not as,

There isn't such a,

Like the fear that I have the blackness and the ending and the,

You know,

Nothing.

I'm curious with all of this,

Because this sounds like it has influenced your life in absolutely incredible ways.

How you got to spiritually where you are today?

Because I feel like we don't all grow up learning these stories or having these feelings.

And I know you've trained in meditation as well,

But how,

How did you grow up?

How did you progress to believing all of these things about death and about our lives and about what is waiting for us beyond death and having faith in that?

Well,

I grew up Catholic and it was very kind of strict Catholic.

And that was what I knew of religion and the world and God.

And as I got older,

I felt like I wanted to find something different that felt a bit punitive to me and it didn't quite totally resonate with me.

So I was looking,

I always felt like I was looking for something I had no idea what,

But I used to sort of say,

Oh,

I'm on a mission.

I didn't know what it was,

But there was something I wanted to find.

And I tried a lot of different things.

I've done a lot of different personal development work.

And each thing,

You know,

Open something else.

And when I found the meditation,

It really landed something for me in terms of a real grounding and a centeredness in myself,

As well as opening to that sense of,

I don't have to control everything.

I don't have to figure everything out that I,

I can,

I have access to this,

You know,

The divine something bigger that's actually loves me and is looking out for me.

And it's funny because when I was,

Grew up Catholic and I was in the Catholic world,

I had almost a revulsion to it because it felt so straight.

Like I felt in a kind of a box with it.

I felt like I felt like I was guilty all the time.

Like I'd done something wrong and I didn't know what it was.

Whereas this felt more like there was this sense of something bigger and a big part of it for me is,

Is what I use in my work,

Which is a technique called I S T.

Those three letters,

It stands for the inner space techniques of meditation and it,

And it's a type of meditative therapy,

But it brings this whole metaphysical aspect of healing beyond yourself as you,

As you look at the different issues in your life,

But there's something bigger that's really supporting and guiding.

And you know,

And it just became more and more substantial in my life.

It's just something that brings ease,

Brings joy,

It brings pleasure.

And it's something that I'm really passionate about sharing for others,

Kind of holding like,

Yeah,

This is here for you too.

This is here for all of us.

It's amazing.

So I want to know now how your perspective on death or maybe even you as a person have shifted since these three deaths occurred in a row,

Not just the death of your sister,

But your meditation instructor and your brother-in-law from cancer as well,

Because it sounds like this has been transformative for you in a way and even is propelling you forward with a mission to help others with it.

Yeah,

That is very much how I feel with it.

And I feel that it's given me a certain strength and initiative to carry the masses,

To show it.

I feel kind of maybe more shy,

Maybe holding myself back more.

And I just really have felt particularly from my sister.

And I laugh as I say it,

Because when I feel her,

I feel this lightness,

I feel her laugh,

And I feel this sense of go do it,

Do it,

You know,

Talk about this,

Share this,

You know.

And so it's like I have a playmate.

I have someone here who's with me,

Who's encouraging me.

And it is really important to me because the sense of meaning in life is something that,

You know,

I know myself,

I was always curious about,

Like,

You know,

What are we doing?

Why are we here?

What's happening?

And it's so,

But it's meaning,

But with presence.

So I feel so much closer to people.

I feel like the love that I feel for them is really,

It's obvious.

And it's like physical almost,

You know,

It's like I say it,

I'm there.

It makes my life so much more enjoyable,

So much more,

There's more depth,

There's more feeling kind of awake and,

You know,

And feeling like serving a bigger purpose as well.

Like that's actually what motivates me a lot is this sense like,

It's actually not hard to access a lot of these things.

It starts with just knowing that there's something else there and feeling the part of you that wants that and,

You know,

Connecting with that.

And so it's just a joy for me when I work with people to really see them light up,

To see their lives change,

To see them engage in this way,

To have these deeper relationships,

To connect with meaning and,

You know,

Being more themselves in the world.

It's really beautiful.

It is.

And I'm curious to know from you,

Because I have my own thoughts on this as well,

Is what do you think your clients or even just everyday people that have never worked with you,

What do you think they need to believe about death or about the things that totally transform our lives in order to become those more open,

Those more present,

Those more physically their people?

When you ask that question,

The biggest thing that I feel is this sense of you're not alone.

You know,

That's something that I hear and I see a lot from people,

Even if they don't actually say it.

It's like this fear of I'm alone,

You know,

And when people die,

It's especially people that you're very close to or they were the caretaker,

You were,

There's that sense of they're so alone with that,

You know?

And so when I'm working with people,

It starts with me being there for them.

So I am not,

They're not alone.

Like I'm a hundred percent on board.

I'm with them.

I'm supporting them between sessions,

Like the whole time.

Like it's,

It's this real sense of my presence,

My being present,

And that can translate and that can happen in any relationship.

You know,

That can happen with people who really want to be there for you.

And there's that sense of moving into,

Starting to feel something bigger,

Like starting to allow that,

You know,

I think we all have different conditioning or beliefs or experiences,

Maybe being hurt,

Different traumas,

Different things that kind of made us feel really isolated and really unprotected and really alone.

And so there's a sense of maybe seeing that from a different angle or just even just starting with feeling,

Letting yourself feel supported,

Letting yourself receive that support and love.

I love that visualization.

And I'm,

I close my eyes sitting here listening to that because that was really just a gorgeous depiction of what I want for so many people that listen to this show.

I want to ask what are the top three,

Maybe truths or resources that helped you come back?

I mean,

Connection to others was huge.

So there was a sense of being able to be with people,

To cry,

To hug,

To talk about her,

To kind of,

You know,

Really express the pain of the loss.

You know,

I think that was really important.

It was really hard to go out to the island for the funeral because it was like,

God,

Not only is she not going to be there and I just saw her a couple of days ago,

But you know,

The whole funeral thing with the wake and all that,

Like that's so full on.

It's so intense.

So definitely that connection.

And I was blown away by the community support,

Like the people in the funeral.

There were,

The place was packed,

There was standing room only.

There was like,

It was raining and there was still like,

You know,

50 to a hundred people standing outside and I just felt how loved she was,

Like how many people she touched.

So there was that real sense of the community.

And for me,

The meditation practices and the meditation routine that I had was huge because it always brings me back to this grounding,

To this sense of balance,

To this sense of receiving from God.

And it helped me feel her a lot.

So those,

And those,

That practice that I did in the book that was based on the Tibetan book of the dead was massive.

Like it,

It's hard to put into words how powerful it was for me.

And I think because I've done a lot of meditation,

It was even more powerful,

But there was this sense of feeling like there's so much more than just this world that we live in,

This kind of concrete material world,

Like that there's this another world that's,

It may be non-physical,

But that's where her spirit was.

And it was the sense of an invitation to kind of be with her in this way.

And it was really,

It just filled my heart.

It was very light and it was like she was laughing and I felt like she was really giving me so much love.

You know,

It was like an honor.

It was an honor to be,

Be there on her journey.

And even now to,

To feel her,

I don't feel her as intensely as I did then,

But it's like this echoes of her spirit,

Like the sense of her,

Her laughter.

I often hear that.

So I feel like those were the,

The major things for me.

Thank you.

And this question just came to me while you were speaking,

But is there anything you haven't let go of or haven't released about her death or that you're still working on?

I think there will always be sadness and missing her in some level.

You know,

I'm actually looking at a picture of her right now and she's so beautiful and I just want to hug her and I want,

You know,

It's like there's something about the physical,

You know,

When you have people in the physical and you can hug them or touch them or feel them or they,

You know,

They're touching you.

That's like priceless.

So it's like I,

I certainly haven't let go of that wanting to kind of,

You know,

To be with her and even just see her respond to me in the way that she would have normally.

You know,

I,

Fortunately I have pictures where she's like making some of her characteristic expressions and see her like sitting on the beach.

It's like,

So her that,

And when I look at them,

I'm like,

Ah,

There she is.

There she is.

Like,

So it feels like a part of her is still,

Is there,

Is that.

But there'll always be the missing of her and the physical missing of her and the wanting her to be there and the wanting to share and tell her things.

I mean,

I can,

I do that,

But you know,

There's a difference.

I do want to ask you if there's one phrase or if there's one message that she has sent to you that has given you the most comfort that maybe we can share with our listeners today.

Yeah.

I think I alluded to it earlier,

But I mean,

The sense that I got,

You know,

After she passed and I still feel it is,

You know,

As I was grieving and it was very heavy at first,

There was a sense of she,

She says,

I'm okay and this is amazing.

And that was the sense I got that she was in a,

You know,

It sounds kind of cliche when people say,

Oh,

She's in a good place or a better place,

But it doesn't sound like that at all.

It's like,

It felt like this sense of like,

There's more and it,

And you know,

It's here for you.

And,

And I really have the sense of like,

Oh,

She,

She went first.

She took the next journey,

The next train,

The next step.

And I'm going to take that step at some point as well.

And so is everyone and everyone I know.

And so there's a willingness to feel that and to,

To have that awareness because it,

It actually just helps me appreciate life so much more.

And as I said,

Be more present.

I'm okay.

And this is amazing.

That's such a cool gift.

I love how,

I love how that feels for you.