Like Being On A Crashing Plane With Emily Ruth

Emily Ruth,

I am so delighted to have you on the show today because we've been circling each other's orbits on Instagram for quite a long time and I love just how honest you are in your posts about grief and loss about our bodies about emotions about just like Being alive in the world and how devastating and how amazing that can often be So I'm excited to have you on the show as a guest and to have you share your stories with us And the first story of course that will introduce is of course your last story and relationship with grief Well Shelby I want to thank you for having me on the show I've been a longtime listener and follower and have really benefited from all your guests who Have so generously shared their last stories with us It's an honor to hear their stories and I am grateful for the opportunity to share mine with you and your listeners today So in the past,

I've really struggled to know how to share my last story I haven't quite known how to tell it.

Not that there's one right way But I wouldn't say I felt like I could really capture the essence of my experience in the past and in Thinking about why that is I've realized it is because I feel like mine is really a losses story While there is kind of one definitive moment of loss it really just felt like it was ten long years of loss After loss after loss compounded and I'm certain that many of your listeners resonate with that feeling I've had this image in my mind You know comparing it to a plane flight So I'm on a plane flight and going on this trip planning to arrive at some beautiful destination.

I've got my bags packed I think I have everything and everyone I need with me and Then there is this unexpected crash landing And there is one big initial hit to the earth It's rough,

But the plane keeps skidding and colliding with things as it goes along Parts of the wreckage are just flying off the plane as we go along and it's not just one collision It's a series of hits and crashes and that is really what the last ten years felt like so I'll share what led up to the Catalyst loss if you will and then briefly get into the series of smaller losses that followed I'm married young.

I met my first husband my freshman year of college and we got married when I was 19 I did turn 20 soon after that,

But I was 19 when we married I was a performer a dance major in school and an actress by trade so I didn't plan to have children right away I really just wanted to dance and enjoy married life So our first pregnancy was not planned and after taking that test.

I was really nervous and Unsure of how my life plans were going to shift But I knew that at some point I wanted to be a mother and I was married to a really gentle Man who I knew would make a great dad So I very quickly got into the head and heart space of making room for this baby and our family and Just after we had announced our pregnancy.

So I think it was around 13 weeks.

We lost that baby to miscarriage and I felt surprised by the grief that came along with that loss I know that you've had Some guests on your show who have spoken to that experience of miscarriage and it's really tough and and tough that it's not much talked about I Wasn't prepared for it I didn't really have the coping skills to deal with that loss and so I dove right back into my education Into my passion.

I was also dancing professionally by that point So I just really,

You know focused on my work and kind of brushed that experience under the rug I didn't allow myself to feel it a few years later,

We were eventually able to have our first son I was 26 and Just primed for being a mother.

I felt so ready and I had a beautiful empowering pregnancy in birth.

I realized that I Intensely loved the experiences of pregnancy and birth and and getting so in tune with my body I loved researching everything I could about it.

I Actually became a trained birth doula if your listeners know what that is a doula supports women in pregnancy and birth so I loved it and About ten months after our son was born I Became pregnant again,

And I had wanted my children to have siblings close in age and to have close relationships So I was really excited for this pregnancy At around 14 weeks I had some bleeding and I thought I was miscarrying again by this point.

I'd had a handful of miscarriages That I'd Kind of like I said just kind of pushed him under the rug.

I didn't really allow myself to feel them So I was when we went in for the ultrasound I was preparing to hear once again that my baby didn't have a heartbeat and I braced myself for that,

You know but what we heard was that not only did my baby have a strong heartbeat,

But that there were two strong heartbeats and I was a static to this day there have been very few moments where I felt such joy just electrify my body I I felt so deeply it was like every square inch of my body just felt I Mean the hair on my head felt excited.

It was amazing.

It was it was such a beautiful Experience and we had been seeing a midwife.

I Had had my first son at home with the midwife and so we were seeing a midwife but after discovering we were having twins we transferred care to an obstetrician and They ran all the tests and did all the things that they do with a twin pregnancy to make sure that things were progressing well and that everyone was healthy and it just it all just felt so exciting and But at about 20 weeks So about halfway through my pregnancy things really shifted and this melancholy mood sort of settled into my being I Started having these premonitions.

I started having dreams that something wasn't right with my babies that something wasn't right with my pregnancy and I I could still tell you about ten vivid moments that I that I felt this I asked my doctor To do all the tests to double-check that things were good.

Everything looked fine Shelby.

They they couldn't find one thing I Was told I was in the healthiest category of women My babies were in the healthiest categories of twin pregnancies.

I had been active I ate well,

My babies looked great it all looked okay But I I didn't feel okay in my heart.

I Remember one day I had taken my son for a walk in his stroller At this point.

I think he was a little bit over a year old And we were walking around the block on this cloudy day and I remember so distinctly Looking up at the sky The clouds were gathering just right above me full dark clouds,

I mean it was like exquisite and it looked beautiful and Sad and I just remember feeling grief-stricken like inexplicably so in fact This was really before a cell phone cameras were a thing.

So that tells you how long ago this was But I had gotten into the habit of taking a small digital camera with me to capture all my older sons little moments You know He was just over a year and so I wanted to catch all these moments that the new facial expressions the new Discoveries the the smiles all of that.

So I carried this little camera around with me everywhere And so when I looked up into the cloudy sky and I felt this overwhelming grief I actually took a picture I somehow knew This was a moment.

I needed to take in and even document It was a clear premonition for me that something was coming The night before my babies were born so it was actually the night before Halloween We had been watching comedy shows on television I was like trying to boost this this,

You know Shake this melancholy mood and boost my mood and I just couldn't laugh like all of our favorite shows I couldn't laugh and I told my husband I just wanted to go to bed and I did and I woke up during the night briefly and I remember hearing the train that runs a few miles away and In fact,

I I Lived two streets from where we lived at that time.

I lived two streets from there now And I can still hear the train at night,

But I woke up and I heard this train and and I had the thought That someone was leaving my life It didn't make sense rationally,

You know like but it was so vivid and The next morning I woke up and and decided to call a doctor.

I told them something was off Something didn't feel right But that wasn't a physical sensation it it was an emotional one And so they asked me if I had had any bleeding or contracting and I hadn't so I was told that you know this pregnancy would feel different than my previous one because this was twins and that was a singleton and I shouldn't worry and and I didn't know how to tell the nurse that I knew something was wrong.

I I hung up and immediately called a midwife that I had a relationship with and Shared what I was feeling emotionally and she took me very seriously.

She called Another one of her friends a perinatologist at a local hospital and actually got me an appointment that very hour She called me right back and said she's waiting for you now She has like an you know,

She's I think she was like free before her lunch or whatever.

She had some free time and she said pack a bag in case you end up needing to stay and So I immediately started packing a bag Just kind of frantically.

I felt this urgency.

I started packing this bag and about halfway through packing.

I Dropped to my knees in labor It was like zero to sixty and it was so intense.

I Had had a baby not long before,

You know It was just a little over a year before and so I knew what real labor felt like and this was real it's like I Was suddenly in pushing phase within a minute of going into labor It was like I felt nothing and then I was almost ready to push I knew I didn't have time to even wait for an ambulance.

So My husband rushed me to the hospital just a few minutes down the road and within a few minutes of arriving Sheldon the older of the two twins was crowning and I Remember the doctor holding my face in her hands it was like time stopped and it felt like a movie of someone else's life,

But But this was my life.

I was living it.

I remember her saying Emily these babies are coming right now and And they're not going to make it they are just too little and I knew it I had known it We didn't want to take extraordinary measures You know hooking our babies up to tubes and IVs when I knew they weren't going to survive.

I had I had felt that I knew they weren't meant for that so We took the time that we had with them to hold them and we heard their heartbeats you know put the stethoscope on their heartbeats and We heard their heartbeats are the second twin Thomas even opened his eyes which the nurses were just amazed by babies that small don't don't often open their eyes they were born at 23 weeks and Those were really Sacred moments and I don't regret that decision to hold them I'm so glad that we had that time with them.

They each lived for less than an hour and Every year I light candles on Halloween morning at 11 25 and 11 26 a.

M.

When they were born and It's sort of the way I honor their lives and their places in their family in our family And that experience it it changed me it Continues to change me in so many ways it it checked it changed our family it rocked our world and ultimately Our little family doesn't look the same as it did Like I said the loss of our twins sort of set off this series of difficult circumstances.

We hadn't had health insurance We were so poor and didn't have health insurance and this was during the economic crash of 2008.

So financially it It killed us.

We we went bankrupt.

We lost our home our car it was really difficult times and You know this last October marked ten years since they were born.

So I've had Some time and distance from the real epicenter of all of that we we did have one more son a few years later who I'm so grateful for I'm glad that That my older son has a brother and blood my younger one has has an older brother they they just are the sweetest little buddies and both of those living sons from that marriage are just such lights but my former husband and I we split up about a year after our last son was born and You know,

It's just a lot it It was a heck of a decade I Kind of taking a breath and having a moment here because I Personally,

I don't know if any of the listeners of our show have ever Been in a room with a baby that's been born premature.

I have not and so registering Like what this experience is like is really hard for me And so as you've been telling the story I've conjured up this image of like a very very very small bird like just these tiny little fragile things and there's so much that they're constructed of and yet you know,

You can't just so fragile like and I'm just absorbing that image like like holy crap like my heart hurts To think of this story for you and and I've written so many things down from your journey already The first word on my page right now is plane crash and I can see How you got there with this with this story like holy hell and the first thing that I want to explore is Something else I wrote down and that is the grief of not being believed Because I feel like you You to me my perception of you as we've been orbiting each other on the internet for as long as we have have such a strong connection with your intuition and even to go so far as to have dreams and to be like receiving like downloading messages from the sky and from trains and like inanimate objects are delivering these things to you and you are open to them and yet To be bringing these things to doctors and to medical professionals is like and to not be believed I think there's immense grief in that Wow,

You know I I'll be honest that is not Something I think I've I've explored for myself.

I really I know I to some degree I know that I've held some energy around the fact that I called that morning I can't remember if I said that but that the morning of I Called the doctors and and they said well,

It's gonna feel different from your first pregnancy This is a twin pregnancy and it's gonna feel different from a singleton and it was like no matter how many times I said no But I I feel like there's something wrong.

I it's not just different It's not just that it feels different with two babies in my belly It's not that it's something's wrong and and I I have had some sense that like I've had to work through some anger around that Not being believed there,

But I don't think that I've really explored the fact that I've had the dream Deep impressions and that those weren't really believed the first one who acknowledged him was when I told my friend who was the midwife And and she said no,

I you trust a mother's intuition.

Let me call and she called her friend Right away and and I think really the only reason anyone listened to her is because she's you know the midwife She's a mid a medical professional and so my mom's a midwife and so but my voice as a mother it kind of meant nothing and I don't know that I have explored it and the way that you That you're talking about in it.

It is really deep Yeah,

And I think this happens This happens in motherhood grief,

But I think it also happens in like the larger umbrella of grief,

Too like where people get these These hunches or these dreams or these signs that they immediately pick up on they're like something is happening there's another episode of coming back that aired earlier in the season and This woman as her husband was in the hospital and they were trying to figure out exactly what was wrong she called her friend and the first thing she said was I'm going to be a widow and He wasn't even dead yet.

And and she just she just knew she's like I knew I knew I knew she's like I didn't know the weight the gravity of all of that But I knew that that was going to be my reality in a very short period of time and it was in three weeks time And I think I think there's so much Emotionally and with grief and with intuition that gets discounted because it doesn't Show up in the physical world and it can't a lot of times.

I think a lot of what we Feel or what we into it or what we believe to be true.

There's no There's nothing for us to hold on to and then there's an isolation almost like I am I crazy in The midst of this too because I nobody believes me I feel this with every fiber by being you said grief from the head to the bottom of your feet like it That's a full body something's happening and I just think that's something that gets so so discounted and so Brushed away in our culture unless we're talking about like talking to God or like woo woo spirituality kind of stuff We we forget that it's intertwined in the everyday like you had the stream and then you probably like got up and made breakfast and took Care of your almost one-year-old like this is incorporated with your daily life.

But also these things have incredible messages For us.

So I just want to say like thank you for Sharing those with us because those are powerful and very personal moments Thank you for hearing it.

I I don't know if you want to hear any more Any more of that story?

Yeah there is kind of heart be and the part B of that is so That that marriage with my older kids.

So I had I had another son after my twins And that marriage ended soon after We we couldn't make it through the wreckage.

We just couldn't it was a lot on our little family and And yours went by I remarried.

I'm remarried now and we married all were coming up on three years and We I again started experiencing miscarriages so we had Three losses.

Well four I had I had miscarriages and then my last pregnancy before my youngest son I had an ectopic pregnancy and that was another experience where I wasn't believed.

I Had made an appointment with a doctor.

I Wasn't feeling well.

I Had had what we thought was another miscarriage and I I wanted to be checked out and I went in and the doctor I I you know medical professionals that there there is so much good that comes from from Western medicine but sometimes I feel like At least in my experience that like I shared before is that when you're not believed you feel like well What do I do with that?

I don't have a medical degree I'm not the quote professional.

So what do I do with the fact that I still don't feel well so I went in and and I had called and and they said well,

We can't get you in right away.

And I said,

Well,

I had a miscarriage I'm still not feeling well and they asked me a few questions.

Is this happening?

Is that happening and I said no none of that's happening,

But I don't feel well and something's not right And this is a pattern I've had several miscarriages and they said well,

We can't get you in right away unless you're having these symptoms and So they were gonna get me and I think in like three days or something and in the meantime we I didn't know that my ectopic pregnancy had actually ruptured within the body and I started bleeding internally And long story short I barely got to the hospital in time I have a friend that came over and I thought I must have the stomach flu.

I thought well,

You know,

I'm nauseous I'm getting sick.

This must just be a stomach flu and I had a friend that came dropped in unannounced.

Basically.

She she just felt like she had to be there She said Emily there's no way I can describe it I just I knew I had to drive to your house and I knew I had to basically Let myself in and stay until the feeling went away That was that was her description of it and I tried to send her away several times I felt so sick and I mean if you can imagine having the stomach flu I finally like basically crawled to the bathroom and I yelled to her in the other room.

I said Allison you can go home basically,

I don't want you here I don't feel well and and she insisted on staying and finally,

She came in and said Emily something's not right I'm taking either you we can call the ambulance or I can drive you to the hospital but you're not not going to the hospital and I I had felt so humiliated I think in previous experiences that you know that that I thought I thought something was wrong and and and it I I was basically told I was crazy or like it's all in my head and and I finally let her I said,

Okay take you know,

Take me to hospital.

She drove me to the hospital.

They wheeled me in They took me into the maternity section because I had been pregnant even though I had miscarried and I I looked at the ER and I knew the weight was way too long I was going to be there for hours before anyone saw me and I thought well,

I've been pregnant recently So take me to the maternity ward.

I can get in quicker because there was no one in that hallway and so she she they wheeled me in and They did an ultrasound and immediately I looked up on the on the monitor and it was It was one of those ultrasounds where it was like things lit up and my whole stomach on the monitor was red like The blood was just everywhere.

And so it was an emergency surgery.

They wheeled me right back There was like no time the doctor my husband had just shown up because my friend had called in and My husband had just walked in and they just were informing him.

Your your wife was going in for surgery and So they had to remove my fallopian tube and there was no I had no warning like I just felt so shocked and and it was traumatizing,

You know in that way and so That's kind of what I mean by the plane wreckage Like it just kind of kept going You know losing our twins and then losing my marriage.

It was the death of my marriage and then several more miscarriages I've been pregnant more times than I can count on my hands and then losing my fallopian tube part of my body and that was a grief that I was not expecting to have such Such deep feelings and grief over losing a part of what makes me a woman and So that's that's kind of the to make a short story long Can you speak more on that that That grief of losing a part of your body especially something that defines You as a as a gender as a identity that is so I mean,

It's it's inside of you It's no longer inside of you,

But it was inside of you.

But is also like this is so energetically and symbolically tied to Being a woman as well Yes,

Well,

Like I said,

It was a grief process that I was not expecting I Had talked to friends who had had You know elective surgery like You know,

They're they're having a hysterectomy or or something that they're they're choosing and even that was a grief process Even when they chose it So I don't know quite why I wasn't prepared or why I didn't think that I would feel that thing way But I came out of surgery You know and and two weeks later,

I'm like expecting myself to be fine And I wasn't fine Shelby.

I wasn't fine It took well over a year for even just my physical healing and my scar it's been let's see,

It's been almost two years since that surgery and It's still really tender.

My body is still Coming to terms with the fact that I was cut and it and it was it was an emergency surgery So what it's not like a really pretty cut it it was intense that whole experience was intense and like I said It's taken me a long time to to get to a point of healing.

I couldn't couldn't really walk.

I had been really Active before I had you know in my younger years I was a professional dancer and very in tune with my body and and my oldest son I think I mentioned I had him at home.

I had really empowering birth experiences with with My my son my living sons and and I just I had been really active and and after the surgery It it robbed me.

I felt robbed.

That's the only way I can describe I felt robbed I felt like something had been taken from me Like you said that you said it so beautifully that a part that defined my gender And that that has been I'll admit I wouldn't say that I'm completely over it I'm still kind of navigating and sifting through all that that has has brought to my doorstep and in many ways it's been beautiful because I feel like it's led me to some healing modalities that I Was not familiar with didn't know very much about And so in many ways it's it's been kind of a gift a strange gift If I can call it that because it has has led me down some paths that have been really beautiful But it it definitely has been difficult and my family has had to really my husband has been so good but he he's had to kind of help me pick up some pieces and and Each piece I pick up and I look at like he has to sit with me to you know It's like I need I need witness.

I need someone to witness what I'm And he you know,

He's he's done it I wouldn't I wouldn't say it's been easy for him,

But he has willingly done it and and sat witness for me and as I've cried and mourned the loss of my loss of my body what what it was before and What what it is becoming even?

It's been it's been a ride I don't know if that's what you were looking for when you said to talk more about that,

But that's what it's been like I think it's just so perfectly phrased and the thing that immediately just popped into my head It's like I need a witness because I'm not crazy like The exhale that we receive from having someone sit with us and just be like,

Yeah,

This is real even if it's Even if it's not the same thing that we're agreeing on It's like yes,

This is the experience that you're having right now and there is so so much It doesn't make anything feel better you still feel like crap But you're like,

I'm slightly less alone than I thought I was in this And I think it it makes just the tiniest difference and yet it makes all the difference in the world I want to ask a question that also comes up in a lot of griefs,

But especially with the grief of miscarriage as well as Losing babies and that is as well as like a lot of medical procedures happening to you in you at you and that is Do you feel like your body belongs to you?

Wow,

That is a really powerful Question You know,

I think for me through this process I think it has Caused me to well,

I don't want to say it's forced me but it has definitely led me to the point of stepping into my body in a in a In a deeper way a more full way.

I don't know how else to say that but it's like I've had to fight to be in my body I Mean because literally I've almost and I didn't even tell you about another previous Surgery that I had that was in another emergency surgery.

Um,

All of these experiences have brought me to the point of wanting to fight to stay here and Fight to stay on this planet,

You know,

Not just for my kids or my husband but like for myself like when?

When having those experiences I I Realized how much I wanted The therapy that I needed to do that there was still so much I wanted to do here and So this idea of embodiment really being in my body I've had to kind of fight for it And I think now I'm so much more in my body than I was in my 20s and my teens for certain Because I've had to fight for it and I don't know is that what you're asking Maybe it maybe I should have have you repeat the question No,

I I think that's very well phrased and kind of I mean,

However the experience shows up for you is however The question should be answered because this is not a podcast where I'm ever looking for specific answers to anything Literally just us having an intuitive journey together because these questions are I have no idea where they're coming from when I ask questions I guess on the show I'm like for some reason this needs to be asked and Sometimes they repeat themselves like tell us your lost story is the anchor and all of them And then that's what we always come back to is this is where we find unity is what is your lost story?

But everything else It just comes through it's what it's a wild process I have to listen to interviews again before they go to air because I forgot what I said like it's it's a it's a process Um,

But I I literally wrote down in all capital letters.

Do you feel like your body belongs to you because like So much especially in the medical system,

Especially in the Westernized world there's so much of being like whisked away and rolled away and gone into surgery and cut open and all this other stuff that Rarely like we tow the line of consent a lot or autonomy or sovereignty in the medical world And it's such a hard thing to reckon with in grief because it's not something that's happening outside of us It's happening to us and on us and in us and it's something that we it's something that our hearts not only have to kill from But our entire bodies like there's a visible and like a physical thing that we have to patch up from and it's it's so hard to feel like we continue to our to belong to ourselves when so many actions have been taken on our bodies and in our bodies that were not orchestrated by us and I think this this bleeds into pardon the bleeding term,

But like this bleeds into like sexual trauma and abuse and violence and Forced abandonment or isolation when things happen to our bodies that we do not want to happen to them Or we're not of our choosing.

I think There's almost like a oh,

I'm getting chills.

Um,

The it's like a rehoming process.

We have to remember How to come home to ourselves when home doesn't look like home anymore or home doesn't feel like how many more Yes Yes,

When home doesn't look like home anymore.

That's exactly how I felt Shelby like,

You know I came home from the hospital and you know and they say things like well You know,

It'll be six weeks There will be like this healing process and then you know,

But you'll really feel better like in three months I remember this timeline so I'm thinking in my head.

Okay,

I'm gonna feel at home I'm gonna feel like myself in three months or whatever.

Oh my gosh.

No,

I I don't look the same.

You know,

I have this and at first like the scar was so like I Hate to use this word,

But I felt hideous to me.

I felt like oh my gosh this huge.

I mean and it's huge It's a large scar and it and like I said because it wasn't planned it it it's it's not Beautifully stitched up and and as grateful as I am for that that,

You know help was there for me when I needed it I'm glad I'm alive my my heavens.

I'm glad I'm alive,

But I my body does not feel the same and and It's never gonna feel the same and I and it's gotten better I feel better,

But it's not ever gonna be the body and I'm okay with that now But it's taken almost two years To get to a place where I feel at home again And it's been I would even say just the last few months that I've stumbled on a few more of these tools that have really helped me Automatically get back To where I'm feeling like okay.

This is this body is my home It's it's really only been the last few months and it and that's a long time To feel out of my to feel homeless.

Yeah.

Yeah Yeah,

That's a great way.

I am I wrote a piece a while ago a lot of people don't know that there's a vlog in tandem with the podcast but there is and I I wrote a piece about when grief makes you feel homeless but it was actually in the context of a physical space like when the physical space of home changes after someone dies and Like like their presence is no longer in the home But also if there's still people living in the home things get moved around and they're not where they used to be and you come Home,

You're like wow,

That doesn't belong to me anymore But it can also be be translated to our bodies and I think there's something so Like grief is already an isolating experience But we almost get like double and triple whammied when the building is no longer home The body is no longer home.

The brain is no longer home.

Like where the hell aren't we?

It's like we're just getting dumped off on the side of the road somewhere and it's like,

Okay find your way home And you're like,

But which way do I my compass is broken.

Like I don't know what you're talking about And you're like I have you have given me no backpack a defective compass and I'm wearing flip-flops Like this is gonna be the worst movie of my whole life And we literally just like start down the road in one direction and eventually if that doesn't work you just like turn around and start going in another and you you I say that and it sounds very flippant and like like it could be in a like cutesy movie or something,

But like it is devastating to To walk for miles and miles and miles and then realize I am I am farther from where I started I want to ask because you talked about your Your tools several times maybe if you could share with us some of the ones like maybe the top three or four that have helped the most To come back to that beacon or that rehoming process for you These are the things that have really and the last few months especially Have been really beneficial to me.

The first thing is It's called alchemical alignment and it's by and I want to say her name,

Right?

That's why I was like Worried that I didn't have it right because I want to say her name right her name is Bridget Vixenin's I'm not sure.

I know she lives in the District of Columbia,

But I'm not sure where that name comes from,

But I think she's She's not from the United States.

So I know you probably have listeners all over the world.

So she's somewhere else I think and her work is called alchemical alignment and I just purchased she she has you know,

I'm sure if you google her you can find her but I stumbled on her work I think for a podcast I think she did some interview and it's kind of like to me it feels like a blend of Tai Chi and Some other kind of movement it's not exactly like I Chi but it's it's like it pulls all of the It pulls parts both parts of your brain together with your body like after I do her movement sequence That's what it's called is the movement sequence.

I Just feel like my body and my brain and my heart are all connected So,

I don't know what that means to anyone else,

But it has been really hugely beneficial to me Bridget Vixenin's and alchemical alignment the alignment sequence.

That's what it's called Another resource that has been really helpful to me has been Perry Nicholson on On Instagram.

He's called stop chasing pain He's got some His body of work is really broad but he has a lot of stuff even just free content on his Instagram page that he Helps people really tune in and and get their their bodies You know back in sync with with their hearts and their minds.

I feel like And then another one and I'm not sure exactly why this has been So helpful to me in terms of getting my body in sync with with my my spirit and my mind and my heart is Randy Buckley she has a group called healthy boundaries for kind people and I think for me and all of this Boundaries learning proper boundaries has been a huge piece And now I'm kind of connecting that to what we were talking about earlier with with the medical field I think I was a bit in shock and Traumatized after that whole experience not because it you know,

Not because I didn't need the surgery.

I absolutely did but I Think had I had healthier boundaries and had known how to articulate myself in the moment I maybe could have asked for things that I mean I won't go into detail but there are a few things that happened that I think if I had had my wits about me and had healthier boundaries that I could have Maybe requested a few things were different in that experience.

And so anyway,

Randy Buckley healthy Boundaries for kind people her work has been really beneficial to me as well And none of those are grief Entered on grief,

By the way But they've been helpful to me in my journey.

So and they don't always have to be I um I tell podcast listeners a lot that the book that really sparked Inspiration for my own coming back was called the happiness project,

Which is like the exact opposite of grief And I actually can totally see why I can totally see why That would be the long the short story of it is that there's a part in the book where she says if you want to Have a happier life do the things that you used to do as a child and one of mine was going to the library with My mom and my sister and in an effort to reconjure that memory I got a library card for the first time as an adult and started going to the library and but everything I wanted to read I was like,

Well,

What am I interested in?

Cuz I don't really know myself as a reader anymore because the standardized school system will beat that out of you.

And I was like What do I want to learn and then I was like well I want to learn about what I'm going through I want to learn about grief and then in like the course of a year I think I've read anywhere from like 20 to 40 books about grief and I had all this wisdom.

I say wisdom I had all of this like reference material in my brain and I was like Why are more people talking about this and then through a long series of events?

I'm combined with a lot of people telling me I should that's how the podcast was born and how the work I do was born but it was mostly just this like this curiosity and this like spark moment of like Oh,

I could I could do something with that.

But it's always these I refer to this over and over and over again It came up in a Previous episode of coming back.

I'm actually not sure what season it's in anymore.

We're in season five right now But it's about how grief is like an involuntary scavenger hunt and you're kind of always trying things on to see if they fit If they don't kind of put it down and go on to the next thing And it's tricky sometimes because we get attached to things for a while and then we wear them for a while They're like that doesn't really fit anymore And so sometimes things will come in seasons and then sometimes things don't have a grief label on them Like this thing about setting healthy boundaries like that's important when you're grieving To be able to set boundaries with the people around you But it's not necessarily like the dominant thing that a lot of people are thinking of in grief And yet it is so it it kind of depends on What you're seeking so I'm glad you shared those with us I'll actually put a link to all three of those underneath your work in those show notes as well So people want to go explore them.

They certainly can I want to veer into a totally different direction at this moment and Talk about your living sons because I have seen wonderful pictures of them.

They have just like such cool energy about them but with this entire Legacy this journey this plane crash that you have lived in a continued effort to Get pregnant stay pregnant Deliver babies that live like what is the story?

That you're telling your sons or are going to tell your sons about your life as a woman My life as a woman well You know,

I'll just say it's kind of an ongoing conversation I'm not With my in public.

I'm actually really shy which may be on social media.

Maybe that isn't apparent.

I don't know But in in person like in groups,

I'm actually really pretty shy.

I love one-on-ones I love talking to one or maybe two people But at home I'm an open book with my family and I Just kind of have always Been talking about where I'm at with my kids.

I I think I I'm not sure where I got this from but you know as I think as a kid,

I always wanted to know what was going on with my parents because you know kids are so perceptive and we Feel kind of all the ripples of what's going on,

But we don't always know what's causing the rebels And I think as a kid I was always really curious but never really knew or got answers from it from any adults around me I was the youngest of four kids and My mom was a little bit older when she had me.

So all my siblings are quite a bit older than me and so I always just felt like I was wanting answers and no one would tell me I was like The little kid running around trying to get answers and everyone was you know Older and maybe maybe they thought I couldn't handle it.

I don't know but I know as a kid I was very aware that stuff was going on and I but I didn't know what it was.

So That's it's a really long way of saying I've always been very open with my children And so even when you know my oldest son,

He was a little over a year old when we had our twins I wanted him to see them So we brought him to the hospital.

They brought him to the hospital and he Got to hold them.

He was a year old but like we you know We kind of sat next to him and and he he had that experience and even remembers even remembers when he was really really little,

You know that whole experience and my son Danny Because we always were it was an open topic and my oldest son would would talk about it like his brothers Oh,

Yeah,

Sheldon and Thomas You know remember when they were born like he would just randomly say things I don't know we'd be driving somewhere and he would just randomly say something and So it was kind of always in the air they've kind of always been a part of our family even though they're not living and So even Danny who was born after And I'm giving the names of my kids.

I I don't normally do that.

But since you're since I feel so comfortable and I'm sharing with you part of my life,

But My boys have always kind of known That we have this relationship with with Elvin and Thomas even though they aren't here And That is part of my experience of being a mother being a woman I know not all women are want to be mothers or have that inclination But for me that has been a huge part of my my womanhood bearing children having children raising children My youngest so I just had a baby.

He's three months old this week and I had my two older boys were at the birth and the Photos I had a photographer there the photos that she took of my boys there with me while I was in labor are Honestly if my house were to catch fire those were that would be what I would take my computer with my pictures because Those images of my of my boys being there for me and witnessing You know a pinnacle I feel like it's a pinnacle experience for me as a woman giving birth and Having them be in that space and bearing witness,

You know,

We talked about very witness earlier Another experience that bearing witness having my children and my husband there to bear witness with me as I'm having You know their brother their son.

I Don't know it's it's transformative to me and it's it's an experience that we've talked about even since it's kind of an ongoing I'm rambling here maybe but it's just so it's been so impactful for my little family and My kids to be there at the birth of their brother It's just pretty cool I don't know how else to describe it and it was really healing really what I'm getting to is That that experience was such a healing Thing for me after all of these losses This plane crash that kind of just it was like the plane hit the ground and parts are flying everywhere And it just is skidding and parts are continued to fly then it rolls and tumbles and it's like I feel like that birth somehow Pulled all the pieces back together.

I mean it I look different I'm not the same person that I was before I had my twins and that's okay.

I think I've grown I like to think I've grown I like to think that all these experiences have have helped me get a better grasp about life and have more empathy for other people and you know a Variety of just people's lives,

You know,

We all have such different experiences but it's like the human experience like what are we all experiencing and I think it boils down to We all have hard stuff and That's okay.

Like that's what I feel like for me.

My hard stuff has kind of been this tailored curriculum to Help me find the person I am right now I Don't know if that makes sense,

But that's what feels true to me that All this hard stuff all the grief that I've experienced It's brought me to really beautiful things in my life.

And sometimes it's just hard sometimes honestly I don't know what the point is.

Like I don't know.

I don't know that there's any great plan You know when when some things happen,

I'm like,

I don't know if this is part of a plan You know,

Like I don't I'm a believer I'm a I'm a god-fearing person But I don't know that everything that happens in my life is like part of some great plan But I do know I've learned from all of it.

I Do know that Yeah,

And I think that comes with that That sense of being tuned in also a desire to look at it and keep looking at it to get that conversation Ongoing which I love how you phrase that because it's such a drastic turnaround from How you were raised and I don't know if you're purposely doing it to rebel against the system in which you were raised But you're like,

Well you guys didn't talk about anything.

We're gonna talk about everything and they're gonna watch Literally everything my kids we've had all kinds of conversations that like that had to be my that had to be the way I went about it because That's what I needed or what I wanted as a kid.

And so that's what I I guess I still want that as an adult Yeah,

And I think that's our um This is gonna be a bold statement,

But I think that's our natural state To have these things be so open and to have these conversations be ongoing and to not have anything that's like Off the table or behind closed doors.

I think that's our Our nature which is why it's often so hard to grieve because the way that the world responds to grief is Cover it up.

Put it away Don't tell anybody about it.

This doesn't really belong to you like it It's disregarded as an experience and it's its solution quote unquote if you can call it giving a solution to grief is not being fixed but to be witnessed and And and that's it like that's That's how we Make it through to the other side That's how we end up learning because I don't know that any of us enter into these life Experiences of like I've gotta learn something from this I'm having this challenge.

Oh my gosh,

We do not enter into any of these things with the light or Hopeful anticipation or anything But that is what comes but it comes with with being witnessed and with doing the work Too with finding these things that speak to us even if they're not related to grief So I think that's a cool like permission that you inserted in here is like you don't have to have it be related to grief Or to help you Which I think is just so powerful as we're I was kind of rolling to the end of our conversation.

I want to let people know where they can find you,

But especially Your Instagram because I have seen these pictures from your this I was literally crying on the bus I was literally crying on the CTA because you You pair your story with these photos so well And you you took your time and made it into a series and I just thought it was so incredibly powerful And as a woman who at this point in her life does not think she will ever be having children It was just one of those things where it's like wow,

I get to see through that lens for the first time and that's just Powerfully cool is like the phrase that's coming to mind for me Yeah,

I love that.

That's how you experienced it because I do I know that not every woman wants that experience But I think just like there's many things I you know I will probably never skydive but mad it's sure cool to like hear other people Maybe that's an example,

But I learned from other people and their experiences.

So I'm glad that's how you how you see it yeah,

And there's also I mean you can see the The strife and the celebration in it too,

Especially following you for as long as I have I'm like,

Oh I see how we got here and not just like logistically like you guys made a baby but like it like I know the science of it But but but the journey of this has been more than this day Which is just really cool.

There's a lot of there's a lot of backstory that comes up too and I think That it's important that you've been taking that with you.

There's never been a time when that whole story hasn't Follows you or been a part of you,

Which is just really cool