Speaking Grief With Lindsey Whissel Fenton

Lindsay,

I'm really delighted to welcome you to coming back because your project,

Speaking Grief,

Is all about doing grief better,

And not only doing grief better,

But making grief accessible to people that are grieving,

But also people that are not.

Like,

We don't necessarily need to be grieving to get better at grief.

I think it's something that all of us are able,

Should be willing,

To do.

So can you share a little bit more about what Speaking Grief is and kind of what your inspiration was for the project?

Absolutely.

So it's funny because we are all grieving,

Really,

But especially right now,

I think with everything going on with the pandemic,

It's really getting hammered home that we all grieve so many different things,

But we just maybe don't always recognize or name that as grief.

So Speaking Grief is a project that actually started,

I think I started working on this maybe three or four years ago,

When we first started researching and developing it,

And unfortunately it has become all the more timely right now with everything going on.

But it originally was the idea of a colleague of mine,

Her name was Patty Sitalia,

She's since retired,

To do some sort of a project about grieving the loss of a child.

And we started researching and developing that idea and I came on board pretty early.

And there,

You know,

Fits and starts of getting it off the ground,

But it became apparent really quickly that the need for this was huge.

And it was also so much bigger that we needed to really look at this and that there's shockingly,

There wasn't much in the way of content out there in the mainstream anyway that directly took on grief.

I think something I started appreciating since doing this work is how much grief shows up in things and in our pop culture,

But we don't always,

You know,

Explicitly say,

Hey,

This person's grieving or this is this is about grief.

So really just looking at grief,

There wasn't anything and then seeing how much need there was in terms of people not feeling like they were being held or supported by their people in the way that they really needed,

You know,

In kind of their darkest moments was really powerful to see that gap.

And I can talk about some of my own losses,

But I haven't yet because I recognize it's a part of life.

I haven't yet lost kind of one of my immediate family members or close friends.

My losses have been,

You know,

A couple circles out from that.

So I think I came at this more as the perspective of a potential support person.

And I just like I know we all have been there where we just we care so much and we love our people and we really,

Really want to do something for them.

But we just don't know what to do.

And so we just really a lot of times fumble it.

And,

You know,

And then even worse sometimes because we fumble or we're afraid of fumbling,

We just totally vanish.

And seeing how much unintentional hurt and damage that does,

Both in my research and then in the work on the project,

Is really,

Really devastating.

And so our team felt that that was where we could add the most value to this project was really building up our sort of grief,

Grief,

Heavier grief awareness and throughout our society and just getting people a little bit more comfortable with how they even begin these conversations or how they can get better and more comfortable showing up for whoever it is in their life that's grieving and needs that support.

And something I love about this project immediately is this notion of getting better at grief,

But it's not about taking any of the awkwardness away.

It's like,

How do we become comfortable in the awkward?

Because there's really no,

I think people have this illusion that that one day I'll be so good at grief,

It won't be weird anymore.

I'm like,

No,

It's gonna always be weird.

And I love that you're coming at it from this support person perspective.

We've never had this happen on coming back before where the person telling the story is not someone with a major grief or loss story of their own.

And there's this sense of,

Gosh,

I want to help,

I want to know what to say,

But I'm so afraid of tripping over my tongue or saying the wrong thing or offending somebody that it's just better to stay silent.

And really breaking down that myth and those walls.

Yeah,

And we're really all about the kind of own your awkward.

That's,

It's,

I think that's the number one thing is just so much of this is,

Is it's bigger than just grief.

And I want to say too,

In our,

We focused in our project on death related grief,

Because grief is so huge that we needed to have some sort of way to,

To pick a focus and go from there.

But as I said in the beginning,

Everybody's grieving something.

So I think we can all identify to some extent,

But when you're in those really,

You know,

Big loss spaces,

It is awkward.

And it's even if you've had losses,

You know,

I've talked to some of the families who have had those major losses or those out of order losses,

And they'll still say,

You know,

People think that now I'm this expert and that I know what to say to somebody.

And I don't know either because every loss is so different.

And I think it really just starts from that place of being authentic,

That it is uncomfortable and that you know it like it sucks to watch somebody that you care about hurt,

And to accept that there's literally nothing you can do to take that hurt away from them.

So I think that's the one of the key takeaways that I've taken from this and that I hope other people do is like if we can just kind of,

It sounds harsh but like get rid of that notion of like,

You're not going to be able to cheer somebody up in the space that's just not possible and like shift that focus from you're not trying to cheer them up or make it better because you actually can't and shift it to just make them feel supported and ensure that they're not alone and that you don't disappear.

And that's a,

It's just a much more human and real space I think to come into it as a support person than I think from someone who's actually grieving and receiving the support it takes that pressure off to have to perform and,

You know,

Oh okay yeah you cheered me up and now I'm happy and then they leave and it's like no you really didn't but I didn't want you to feel bad.

And I think it's just about that sort of authentic dialogue and coming to things as you are,

And being okay with this saying that you don't know what you're doing you don't know what to say but that you want to be there and you're trying and you know that,

Even if you feel super weird about it you're not going anywhere.

Yeah,

I literally just wrote down.

There's an admission of powerlessness,

Like at some point people who are supporting gravers have to admit that they don't have the power to make us feel better.

Like that's not within their scope of power what you do have the power to do is show up and speak and support and bring a casserole and offered a carpool and all these other,

All these other abilities but I think so much of what especially Westernized society tends to us or tries to integrate is that yeah there are ways to to fix or to cheer up instantly,

Like save your complex kind of stuff.

Yeah,

Yeah,

We love to fix things and I think I've really been reflecting on,

You know,

How we got to be so weird about this because we live in this.

We love lists and we love like the,

You know,

The top 20 guidelines to nail grief support,

You know,

And it's just a space we had this challenge.

So we made the documentary but we've also built a website with some,

Some instruction around this and working with our instructional designer it really trying to distill what the goals are and it's like well it's really hard because we can't really give people tangible,

Like do this and you will not fail things I think the only thing that you can say without fail is be there rooted in love and be honest and authentic and humble because I think you have the disappearance of that support out of the awkwardness is so cruel,

And I don't think I realize that and again it's not one thing we didn't want to do is we don't want to shame people like we are,

I understand like I'll,

I'll share something that keeps coming up in my head.

Throughout this project of like thinking about owning when we do make those mistakes is when I was like,

I don't know,

2223 like I had just moved here and I remember I was getting sleep study done and the technician came in and he was you know wiring me up and everything.

And he said I'm,

I'm really sorry if I seem out of it my dad just died,

And I was so I felt so so in such intense empathy,

And you know I'm a daddy's girl and that just it really.

I felt for him but I still remember that moment of just my brain,

Feeling like a short circuited as I was like searching through this catalog of what I could say,

And I didn't say anything,

I didn't even say I'm sorry I don't even think I said I'm sorry.

And to this day I feel so horrible about that,

That experience and I have always wanted to be able to go back and just say my god I'm so sorry I didn't even acknowledge what you hold me,

Because I was so paralyzed by yeah this fear of that there is some right thing I could do or if I had said these right words to you.

It would have made it all better that your dad died and that's like you know I wish I had known what I know now you know back then but even since then I've been in positions I've had a number of times in the past few years,

Since working on this project where I do know better and you still go to those like go to phrases that are the worst but we're so programmed to say them,

It's like,

You have to almost physically bite them back so you don't say the things you know.

I think you're pointing to a great revelation that a lot of grieving people have,

Especially after they've experienced loss is like,

Oh man,

I've said some really shitty things to people in the past and only now that I'm a greever I'm a member of the club.

Do I actually recognize how bad that feels to hear.

I don't know that I have a specific example that's jumping up to my brain right away but I know that,

At least in my,

In my personal experience before I lost my mom,

I was very much.

Gosh,

And this is a hard admission to say but I was almost a believer in this hierarchy of grief,

Like if somebody wasn't related to you,

Then the grief should not be so big like I didn't understand,

Like,

Loss of a best friend or loss of a co worker or these things that were related to you but not relational to you.

And so it was like I couldn't wrap my head around why that would be so bad and even saying it now I'm like,

Wow,

Shelby,

You had no idea that,

Because I you know I thought there was this hierarchy of,

Of the severity of grief,

I thought it was especially bad to to lose a child or a parent or sibling or somebody that was immediately related to you but like aunts,

Uncles,

Grandparents,

Best friends,

Co workers,

You know,

Fellow churchgoers like the circle radiated out and for some reason you weren't supposed to feel,

Quote unquote as bad when those things happened and so I wouldn't comprehend when people felt deep grief after losing these connections and now I'm like wow.

The invalidating of even just believing that even if I never took action on that but the invalidation of even believing that to be true,

Is invalidate our own grief.

That's so sad too is that.

Yeah,

And I,

I'm so grateful for being invited and trusted into the conversations that I had with people because I think it did,

You know,

It really was a privilege to get such candid dialogue going about such a personal topic but it's really,

It's eye opening but it,

I think it's like the way we internalize that too so I and I'm with you like and thank you for being authentic and being vulnerable and open,

You know,

And sharing that that's where you came to it because we're all guilty of that I think,

You know,

And I've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about grief and loss.

And,

You know,

I've thought,

Like,

God my best friend that would be one of the most devastating losses I could imagine and I want to say in the film we focused on family grief again because we had to find some way to sort of scale what we were doing to make it manageable and that's not at all intended to say that that is the only valid grief,

Megan divine who's who's an author who's featured in the documentary who we've worked with closely has something I love where she'll talk about how all grief is not the same but all grief is valid.

And,

Um,

You know from that internalizing place,

My grandmother died in February,

And I can't have spent so much time working and thinking in the space and I still found myself in what you were describing where you invalidate your own grief,

And I was thinking you know she's 97 you knew,

You know it's your grandmother you knew,

You know you're going to lose your grandparents you expect that.

And I've had the same thought where like when I lost.

So I lost a grandfather when I was 10 that you know I was really too young and I didn't hit me in the same way and then I lost my other grandmother about four years ago and that was that hit me so much harder than I thought it would and I had the same thing you described where I thought geez all my friends and co workers in the past few years who've lost grandparents,

It was sort of like I didn't,

I didn't understand.

And even I'll say pet loss since something that's come out of this.

This project is I am now a not only proud but probably crazy dog mom I we adopted a rescue dog.

My husband and I shortly before I really delved into this project and,

In part because I sort of wanted this little emotional support creature because I knew it was going to be pretty heavy and partly because it was something we talked about for a while and being in the space made me really think you know,

We don't know if next year is going to be,

We're going to be around to get a dog so let's get a dog but that,

You know,

We've gone through a few health fears with her.

And I'm a wreck.

You know I think of all my friends we never had pets growing up and and people I know who've lost a pet and I would think geez it's just a dog or just a cat and now I'm like,

Oh my god I'm a terrible person because now I understand,

You know how much love there is there so yeah it's just,

It's just that empathy and so much of it is like,

Yeah,

Until you're there it's like it's like we ignore it until we don't have a choice.

Yeah,

And something else that's coming up for me right now is also this acknowledgement of hope,

Because if I could change my mind and you could change your mind,

Then other people who don't know how to do grief,

Have the capacity to change their minds,

Like there's a,

There's an innate potential I think in each of us to re-understand grief,

And how to approach people that are grieving so when we have those situations like in that lab where the guys like my dad died and you're scrolling through this index of your brain and what do you say for grief,

Error 404 not found,

Like all of a sudden,

We'll have this index of okay this is something to reach for this is something to reach for even just saying,

I'm sorry so it's like okay transmission received,

I have,

I'm acknowledging that you're grieving right here and right now there is a potential for growth,

Because I think something that especially a lot of grievers including myself feel in the immediate aftermath of loss especially is that if people aren't if the people around us aren't doing grief well at first they will never do grief well,

Like they will never come back to us and apologize for their behavior.

They'll never say they're sorry that they weren't there for us they'll never.

They'll never try again,

And,

And some of them don't and I want to fully and wholeheartedly acknowledge that right now that sometimes there are friends that disappear.

There are family members that shut down your grief and continue to try to shut it down for the rest of their life in your life.

And simultaneously,

I know that I have approached people who I've not done grief well with and I've been approached by people who did not do grief well for me.

And it has not undone what was said,

But it has reestablished the fact that there's a bridge between us and it's worth walking across.

So very,

Almost like hopeful and knowing that our stupidity or insensitivity has become knowing and sensitivity around grief because if it happens to us that means it can happen for a lot of other people as well.

I kind of want to shift gears and talk about the actual experience for you of working on speaking grief,

Meeting with grieving families meeting with experts and kind of what that was like to suddenly be so immersed in the topic of grief.

Yeah,

It was one kind of weird,

I'm a,

I'm an introvert,

And I'm,

But I'm an introvert who's.

I think people misunderstand what that means I like,

I'm profoundly curious about people and like the central thing so this is sort of like it's a weird thing to say like I love doing this but I love like the thing about introverts is like we don't like smallpox.

It's like getting to sit down with people and just kind of cut to the very like essence of,

You know,

What makes people human which is which is your love and your pain and all that.

It's weird to say like I love being in that space because it's a very hard and heavy space sometimes.

But in a way it was this real gift,

And I made.

You probably experienced this all the time is like when you interview someone especially about personal things you do make a weird kind of bond because I think sometimes what you know it's easier to share with someone who doesn't have any real connection to your life and doesn't have,

You know,

No any your baggage and you can just be open so I definitely always have those connections and then within this,

I think even some stronger connections were made but it was it.

It was heavy.

I think I really surprised myself.

I'm also kind of use the word maybe empath maybe like I feel things pretty intensely.

Other people's feelings too sometimes.

And so I knew going into this that I was going to have to,

You know,

Kind of find a way to deal with that.

And I think I was surprised by you kind of get into your professional role and you know I'm,

I'm,

I've done other kind of heavier projects before.

So I,

I knew going into it that I would be able to hold that space and I my rules always like I try not to be crying more than the people I'm interviewing so every now and then you know I wouldn't,

I wouldn't fight it if I were feeling.

You know if I was moved to tears by something they said but I definitely didn't want the focus to ever shift to me so I would allow myself to feel that with them.

But then you know I have to kind of keep up some level of that,

That professional boundary.

But then there were nights where you know certain things would.

I'd be okay for three or four interviews and then something would just,

You know,

Kind of penetrate that boundary and I you know frankly just go back to my hotel room and sob and give myself professional like permission to do that and that it's you know there's no shame and being moved by another human beings pain.

So I think that was,

And that was that speaking about just even the filming of the interviews,

And you know another part of this was,

I think at last count it was probably about 65 or 70 phone calls I made and some of those ended up being people that we featured either in the,

In some form of the projects we have documentary but then we also have a lot of content that was produced exclusively for our website.

And there were a lot of conversations I had in the research phase that were you know hour,

Hour and a half long conversations by phones people I actually never even got to meet in person.

And that was a good lesson in boundaries because I was,

I didn't want to basically turn down any opportunity with someone who is willing to be vulnerable and share their story with me so I would be taking calls that you know,

11 o'clock at night because I had no time differences or six o'clock in the morning and I did that leading up to the holidays.

And I was just,

I was really ran,

You know,

Kind of ran my battery low and so that was,

That was important that to learn how to kind of set some sort of a self care boundary I guess it also you know from a perspective of being able to be present with other people because if you burn yourself down too much,

You,

It's harder to hold that space for other people,

But I think the biggest takeaway from all of those conversations was they would be so emotional often you know they would,

They would get comments and I would kind of end the conversation,

Almost apologizing and say gosh you know I'm sorry I stirred all this up for you or you know I'm sorry,

You know that you're crying now and they would almost always come back and say like no,

Thank you like I never ever get to talk about this no one ever gives me this opportunity.

And I think that was that was sort of like we were talking about earlier is understanding that it's shared pain isn't bad,

Like it's to hear how I guess grateful people are just like,

I don't know,

I don't know how I'm going to be able to have somebody asked them like for real how they're doing or to talk about it.

It was really eye opening that like oh yeah we don't have to be scared of people crying or we don't have to be scared of,

Of bringing these feelings up because this is this is what it is.

This is what grief is this is what life is and really kind of solidified the need to create spaces for those conversations to happen.

So for people who are bystanders to grief whether we're actually grieving ourselves or not.

What can we do to create more opportunities for people to share their grief,

Because I've,

I've heard this a lot of,

Oh my gosh,

No thank you.

I never get to share this.

And so,

Opening up the door,

More and more often for people to talk about their pain.

Yeah,

It,

Um,

It is,

It is so needed,

And this was,

I've told a few friends about this too it would even happen like an Uber rides like I would people would ask me what I was doing in town that's I'm doing a documentary about grief and,

You know,

Someone I really had no connection to would say oh my gosh you should you know my mom died or my brother died and they would give me their whole story and I just thought,

Wow,

Like,

We're so desperate for someone to just broach that topic so I think some of it is literally like talking about it just saying,

Hey,

You know,

I'm trying to think of how to,

How to start those conversations but it's,

I wanted to go back you said something earlier about changing minds.

I don't even think it's that we need to change people's minds about how real grief is,

I think the reality is people know,

And I think that's actually why maybe we shy away from it is because when you do open that space,

You know,

I've heard a lot of people say they don't like when people say,

Oh,

I can't imagine what you must be feeling and their responses well you can you just don't want to.

And I think that's kind of what it is like I think any one of us can can imagine and can go there to what it would feel like if we lost one of our core people and it is so devastating and so scary that we put up that that boundary of not letting it in.

And then that kind of unknowingly impedes our ability to offer that authentic support so I don't think it's a changing mind I think it's a it's a it's a breaking down wall thing and encouraging vulnerability because I think,

So I think to be able to show up for somebody else you kind of have to be willing to have that vulnerability yourself.

One from that awkward place of just like,

I might come off sounding like a total idiot or I've learned this with me speaking like I've learned that the I'm just honest when I sit with people and I say like,

Gosh,

I really wish I knew what to say to you right now,

But I don't or just simply validating that,

Yeah,

This sucks.

This really sucks.

And I wish I,

You know,

I don't have anything better to say that like I'm so sorry that you have to go through this,

You know,

And actively stopping myself from saying anything beyond that.

So for other people I think so much of it is just,

I think you have to be,

You have to almost kind of create the space so it's like you know it's not the thing where it's like oh as I'm passing you.

As we're walking our dogs and we're both like being pulled in other directions probably isn't the best time to be like,

Oh,

You know,

How are you doing,

You know,

Have one of those intense conversations but I think when you're like you know when it is like you know when there's enough space when you're not going to be interrupted when you have that ability to really sit with someone.

But,

You know,

I think one of the simplest pieces of.

I hate the word advice advice is just like just an authentic How are you doing,

And like,

Leave it there,

And just.

And if how they're doing is terrible and I was listening to I think it was your,

Your interview with Jan Warner of like I'm not sure if I want to keep living right now like holding that space and just not judging it and not trying to shut it down.

You know it's not,

I think it's not that we can ever voice real concern but trying to stay out of that judgmental space and another Megan to find his own she's again,

One of our advisors is approaching with curiosity and that judgment.

But you know and I,

It's funny as I'm talking to you I'm like I'm lecturing you and like how to hold space for.

I don't need to you know it's like,

I'm like I'm no more qualified than the next person to talk about this but I think just the act of just sitting with someone in silence is,

Is you don't really need to say much,

It's if they want to share something it's going to come out.

And if they don't,

They're still being supported because they're not alone as they're crying or just sitting in silence.

Yeah,

Yeah,

And I love that you continue to mention Megan divine she was one of the very first guests we.

I mean back when coming back for started and in 2017 we had a lot of great advisors but yeah I also just I was did an interview with Megan,

Right interviewed her a few days ago so a lot of her I call them like mechanisms are sort of fresh in my brain right now.

Yes,

Well in her book it's okay that you're not okay,

Speak in such such powerful snippets that like yeah I can put that in my pocket for later.

And I love this,

This notion of.

We're not necessarily retraining people how to deal with grief or training them how to take the walls down and allowing things to be awkward.

I think so many people asked me what,

Quote unquote advice to give for sitting with somebody who's grieving,

And I think the best thing I've ever told somebody is to give a disclaimer before you say anything,

And not in the sense of,

You know,

I'm going to be really bad at this or something like that but if you're texting or eat like no need to respond right away.

But I'm thinking about you and I love you I'm still here.

If you want to talk,

Or,

You know,

If you don't have time to answer this right now or check in it's okay,

Or I'm so sorry that this is your life right now I know I can't possibly understand and so kind of like I get how hard this is,

And I know that I can't possibly be in your shoes.

But I'm beside you,

Very almost a reminder of companioning in a way,

And some gravers will be grateful for that and others will see it kind of bitterly as like yeah there is no way to understand and it will emphasize the loneliness,

But as much as you can.

It's,

It's something that can.

Gosh,

There's a loneliness and isolation and yet you're not alone it's very paradoxical.

Yeah,

And it's because it is like so,

So many of the thoughts right now.

I was thinking about a few things.

One I wanted to share that one of the,

One of the families we interviewed.

I really filed this away,

You know,

For myself for future uses,

It was a family of a,

They had a stillborn baby boy,

And the father said he really thought about the people who got it right for them.

And it was the people who gave without expectation,

Like that you know would bring the doorbell leave the food and not even expect that thank you for that conversation and who who were consistent so people who kept showing up.

But I think what you just said triggered a memory for me of so my.

This is what I mean by like you know we're all grieving something so my mom's a two time breast cancer survivor and she she went through her first round of treatment when I was 17.

And I remember her telling me later you know when I was an adult that someone had told her,

You know,

You'll have all these people who will be there and love you and want to support you but the end at the end of this.

Nobody can walk this journey but you like you're still kind of alone and in the experience and that,

You know,

It's.

I don't mean that harsh way but it's like she said that really just kind of helped her frame that people would no matter how much they loved her would be there for her as much as they were able but there were some things that that nobody else could carry for her.

And that,

That,

You know,

Made me think about thinking about breaking those walls down and one of the things I think is helpful is for people to start naming their little like daily griefs and I don't mean little but you know those kind of,

Especially right now with all of the things that we're collectively grieving,

But if we can start tapping into those and actually recognizing that that is a loss,

And maybe a grief experience.

You can start sort of filing that away,

You know,

So when I love your error 404 because that's perfect so like that the next time maybe you still might not have the right words because there may never be the right words but at least you'll be like,

Oh,

I remember,

You know how crummy this felt that I was sad that you know this baby shower got canceled and that affected me in this way and I know it's nowhere near on the same scale or the same level of tragedy but I can pull a few of the feelings I felt out in that experience and maybe use that to crack that wall a little bit and start to let in what it might be on this huge huge massive scale of a death or some other great illness or tragedy.

Yeah,

It's like,

It's not a perfect replication but it's as close as you know how to reasonably get.

Yeah,

And it's,

And that's where,

You know,

Again it's like they're all grief is valid it's not the same,

And I so love that you brought up that hierarchy of grief,

Because we do do that and it's like I think it's,

I don't think we do a lot of the stuff,

Because we're you know malicious or bad it's just like that's kind of how our brains work and again like our culture is like we're really into like categorizing stuff and sorting things because it's like efficient to do it that way so it's like,

I'm not trying to.

Again,

We're not trying to shame people it's just,

It's also,

You know,

We're recognizing the shared experience of grief that we'll all have but it's also the shared experience of of discomfort around feeling helpless and feeling.

Because that's,

That's a hard truth to swallow like that you actually can't do anything to take pain away from someone you care about,

But that you,

You can still help by not going away.

Yeah.

And I wonder that kind of segues into my next question which is,

If somebody is listening to this podcast and they're actively grieving and they're seeking that kind of support from the people around them.

It's kind of a shame that the burden of asking falls onto the greever but what can they ask from the people around them like what can they reasonably ask for or expect for the people around them.

I hate,

I hate that people have to ask but yeah I recognize that that's the reality.

I would,

I would,

I guess like hope and pray that people have someone in their life that they have that level of comfort with that,

Like I know,

A very dear friend of mine,

And I we have,

We have been through a whole heap of life stuff together.

And you know we'll have very authentic conversations where sometimes she'll be saying something and,

And I'll,

I'll try to be fixing it or you know giving advice and she'll just say she'll stop me and she'll say I just need you to listen I don't need you to respond.

And that's so like you know and you,

You can't do that with everybody you have to have that level of trust with someone,

Because then your other person has to be able to hear that and not be offended.

And sometimes we don't even know we're doing it like and so I think that's part of it on the support side is just being conscious of those times where you,

You are trying to say the fixing stuff and it's not helping.

But yeah,

From a from a grief person I think I'm struggling with this because I don't want to put any more burden on people who are already caring so much but it's,

You know,

We are.

Some of us aren't like,

We're kind of dense sometimes so I think those little prompts like if you have someone that you can be comfortable with of just saying,

You know,

Maybe when people are offering to bring the meals or whatever it is to redirect.

If that's helpful just saying you know I,

I don't really need you to do this but you know if you would just chill with me for 20 minutes or something,

That would be great,

You know,

I don't know.

And I think,

I think a little bit of.

Yeah,

This is so hard because I don't want to,

I don't want to put more burden but I think a little bit of like positive validation or can go a long way of,

You know,

And I just had this with when my grandma died and I was with a co worker.

And I had,

I chose to go into work the next day as a distraction and had a pretty,

You know,

Rough day I was kind of a hot mess for a lot of it was able to hide out and and then it's sweet.

Just let me cry and let me be have my moments and didn't try to shut it down.

You know,

Like that's the,

You know,

So I think even a simple word of encouragement like,

Because the,

You know,

The other side of that is like your person's gonna be feeling pretty crummy that they're not able to make you feel better and again you do not need to worry about that you do not need to worry about,

You know,

Making somebody else feel better but I think in an effort for you to get the support you receive even just a word like that like you know if they're leaving to saying you know thank you,

Like,

You sitting with me meant so much because they're probably leaving thinking,

Oh my god I didn't do anything and it's a anything I didn't cook anything I just sat there.

So I don't know if that makes sense but I think just recognizing if somebody is if somebody did get something right.

You know,

Recognizing that not in a way that like oh we need to be coaching and praising the other people but in a way to really help shape that support that you're going to need.

Yeah,

I really want to affirm that because even something as small as thank you that was helpful for me wow I really needed that today,

Thank you for listening or even just thanks for letting me rant,

Whatever it manifests into I'm so glad I could sit with you and cry you feel like a really safe person to me like whatever,

However it comes out,

Like whatever this quote unquote script is that you use.

Yeah,

I think that that positive reinforcement can be helpful because it's,

You're not doing something but it's a reassurance that you're doing something.

You're not doing something in the way that society would measure you doing something as in making somebody quote unquote feel better,

But you're actually doing quite,

Quite a lot in sitting and being present,

They don't have to be big things,

And I hold up to yeah my,

My other grandma who died a few years ago people are,

I've said this so many times,

A co another co worker of mine when that happened,

Sent me like a one line email and just said I'm really sorry about your grandma that really sucks.

That's all I needed was somebody to validate like we were saying it's like you invalidate your own grief so I was sort of like okay,

This is my grandma I shouldn't be as I shouldn't have as a hard time with this as I'm having and for somebody else to then say no you,

You're allowed to have a hard time.

And you know,

And I said thank you that was,

That was perfect or yeah sitting with someone like it doesn't have to be a huge thing to be a huge thing,

You know,

I think we can also turn that inward on ourselves.

And allow ourselves to be the people supporting ourselves and our grief,

I know it seems very like meta,

Or a little surreal to be the person who allows ourselves to grieve,

But even sometimes I'll be sitting alone in my room with a notebook in my hand I'm like okay you have permission to rant about whatever you want for 20 minutes and I just like scribble down whatever on the paper I'm like look look how much better you feel after doing that and and not,

You know,

Trying to judge myself of like,

Oh,

This is pointless or oh it's not going to change the behavior of this person or it's not going to,

It's not going to impact my day but then having it all out somewhere without that judgment.

That kind of sideways chatter that our brain often does and just letting it dump somewhere I'm like oh that was even helpful so the ability to self witness can be really powerful to and self validate like you have every right to feel whatever you're feeling and just backtracking that to the validation of the support you're getting to is like I think that's a big thing.

And both I guess for someone who is actively grieving and for support person is like you might not know what you need,

You know,

You might not know that thing that's going to feel good I remember so one of my other lost stories that happened a few years ago and I'm probably a year so into this is I had a cousin who died when he was 23 of an overdose very unexpectedly.

And I remember that night when I found out that my you know my husband first like was trying to be there for me and I said no I just need to be in my room by myself,

But that you know he tried to hug me and I'd be like stop touching me and then five minutes later I'm like wait come back I need a hug,

You know,

And it would change that quickly of just,

You know,

From,

From minute to minute,

It was like,

I couldn't stand to be around anyone else and then the next minute I so desperately just wanted another human there to hold me.

So I think for support people just being flexible in that and that you might have to show you know you might have to kind of roll with it and then you know if you're grieving,

I think it's that compassion with yourself like you don't have to have it figured out like you might,

And you know we talked about that a lot in the project but the whole problem with our support narrative of like let me know if you need anything is like well some,

You don't know,

You always know what you need so sometimes you just have to kind of offer and try some stuff and it might be hit or miss,

But,

You know,

Giving that compassion on both sides of it to be flexible,

And you know kind of roll with it as you're figuring it out is important.

Yeah,

I think the only measure of failure in grief support is failing to show up.

I think people think if they can't make somebody feel better right away or give them exactly what they need or bring the right kind of dish or show up at the right time for a service that they failed their grieving person somehow.

I'm like,

The only failure is,

Is not showing up at all because some kind of effort,

Even if it's like 1% of effort is,

Is not rewarded necessarily but it's noticed,

Like you,

You know who sends you a card and who doesn't you know who shows up for a service and who doesn't you know who reaches out,

Even,

You know,

Across distances on the internet or over text or something and who doesn't.

And so there's,

There's a noticing on the part of the graver of who's trying,

Even if it's not perfect who's trying and who continues to try,

Because that's another huge thing that we're trying to put out there in the consciousness of this project is this ridiculous timeline that we some,

I don't even know where it came from this whole like that there's some sort of this endpoint and this,

This time magic time that you get to where you know you've completed your process and you're not grieving anymore.

You know,

And I think validating that for anyone who's listening who's actively grieving is like it's not a thing it you know you love someone as long as you love them and that's how grief goes,

And it'll change,

And it'll get different but it's not something you need to feel pressured to end and then I think for supporters is we're really trying to get past that whole.

Okay,

I brought a casserole in the first month after the funeral and we've had so many people say to even in that period it's almost overwhelming if you,

Because you will get support a lot of times in this crazy whirlwind of,

You know,

Two or three weeks and then it vanishes.

And so,

For a support person side of just like recognizing like absolutely show up in that first month,

But keep showing up,

Like don't.

It's not over and,

And I think to like we think that it has to be this spontaneous support like I'll be real like when I have grieving people in my life I put reminders on my calendar on random days you know every three months I'll just set myself a reminder like hey check in with this person or you know depending on my relationship with them especially people that maybe aren't in my daily interactions or that I don't see that much that it would trigger me remembering them.

I will set reminders for myself and people be like oh well that's that's inauthentic you need a Google reminder I'm like well no it's not because I had the intention to set that reminder and the you know the the reaction that it prompts me to reach out to them or send them a card or send them a text is genuine.

It's just like we all have our lives and we all have in stuff moves and again,

You know,

You don't always see people every day and it's not that you don't still have that care for them like there's absolutely nothing shameful about being intentional about remembering your people.

I think you're absolutely right in that that brings into light,

The role of intention.

It's like what energy Am I coming to this with,

And as long as the energy is.

This is important.

This matters.

I think that the way that it's executed is marginal doesn't really matter all that much but as long as the energy coming from it is is I care about this like this really really is important to me.

Even if you have to set a calendar writer I'm like,

Yeah,

I do that.

It makes such a big difference and even putting people's grief aversaries and stuff into my phone or,

Or my Google calendars is really helpful,

And even to put my own grief aversaries in there because sometimes it's been so long sometimes I'm for the first time this year and the year before I'm like wow I've forgotten my own grief aversaries and so to text my family or my sister my answer whoever on these days that are also big for me is really huge.

It's like I have a calendar for all my work stuff and then you can toggle on an overlay calendar of grief.

I kind of love that though right because it's so real and so true and that,

You know,

I think that's another whole whole other conversation but that kind of dual role of being someone who's grieving and supporting again with my grandma I had like like a week ago my mom was the one who called me and told me she died.

And I had my own breaks down in my car in the parking lot,

And was cursing and punching the steering wheel and sobbing and then like it wasn't until I think that night or the next morning my husband asked me he's like how's your mom doing and I was like,

Oh my god,

Like I'm a terrible person I didn't even ask her like I was so in my own grief and I'm like yeah it was my grandmother but it was her mother and I oh my god what kind of a crappy person was that I told her that I was like I'm so sorry.

I didn't even,

You know,

I was just so overcome so that you know that's the zone.

Turkey space is like your grief with,

You know,

With the other people affected by that loss.

So many layers.

There are and sometimes I think that the people who who best support us are not in our immediate family,

Especially if it's a familial loss because we are so consumed by our own stories and our own relationships to the person who died in our own pain that it's not that we fail to reach out to other people but it's just like we're carrying so much as is.

And so there's almost this.

We have to look outside of our,

Our core circles.

Every now and then for for support,

Because the people who are around us are also grieving so there's a big.

It's very webby how much it stretches outside of us and it's it's often interesting who we end up leaning on.

I speak to so many gravers and they're always almost always surprised by who shows up and who doesn't and who becomes a friend in grief and who is not off because of grief or a failure to show up in grief.