What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Weirder With Kelli Dunham

Kelly,

I'm so radically delighted to have you on coming back with us today to talk about your life as a nun,

A nurse,

A queer person,

And a grieving person.

There are many intersections throughout your life that I think apply to grief because grief permeates everything.

So if you could please start us off with your lost story.

This shorter version of it is 2007.

My partner of a few years,

She had actually been,

We met when she was in remission from ovarian cancer and about nine months into our relationship,

She had like a very,

Very extensive recurrence.

She got very quickly ill and then almost died,

Got better.

We had a couple years together and then we were living in Oregon and she used the Oregon Physician Assisted Suicide Law to take her own life because she was just like,

I am tired and done.

And so I thought,

Oh,

I'll never love anyone like I loved Heather and moved to New York.

And two years later I started dating somebody else.

And again,

It wasn't,

It's true.

I was not loving someone like Heather.

She was very unlike Heather.

But I fell in love again and we dated for about two and a half years or about two and a half,

Three years into the relationship.

And she thought that she,

Her primary care provider thought that she had developed adult onset asthma because she was having shortness of breath.

And it turned out to be a,

You know,

Of course in women,

They always compare tumors to fruit,

A cantaloupe size,

A tumor in her chest secondary to Hodgkin's lymphoma.

85% of people who are diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma are completely,

Are considered completely cured with the standard chemotherapy.

But 2% of people who get that chemotherapy,

Which is a bleomycin is the central agent,

Die from bleomycin.

It has a really strong pulmonary effect.

And Cheryl developed a pulmonary reaction to the bleomycin,

Which was supposed to cure her.

And she died after three months in the hospital.

So,

You know,

And I always say like,

You know,

When I talk about it,

It's the second part of the story is sometimes harder for people.

They're like,

Oh my God,

Like,

I can't believe this story goes on.

And I'll say like,

Yeah,

The first,

The first time something terrible happens,

You could be like,

Oh,

I guess I was supposed to learn a lesson from that.

But the second one just feels like,

One time I saw one of my other nephews,

One nephew was just like,

You know,

Laying relaxed to the couch.

And my little nephew just came up and punched him in the side of the head.

And he was like,

What was that for?

I kind of felt like that about the second one,

Like,

What was that for?

You know,

I totally hear you in this back to back nature is like,

Holy,

Whoa,

Like it.

You know,

I just got punched.

And then somebody came from around the corner and kicked me in the stomach.

Right?

Yeah,

The thing.

I mean,

And I want to touch on something you said,

Because you're like,

The first loss happened.

And I thought maybe I was supposed to learn from that.

And I wonder if that's something that you believe to be true,

Because I've seen a lot of narratives circulating lately about how trauma,

Loss and death don't exist to teach us lessons,

Like if we learn them great,

But there's the societal belief that we're supposed to quote,

Unquote,

Get something or learn something or become better people,

Because of the fact that loss happens when I guess,

In my own personal opinion,

That's not always the case.

Well,

Yeah,

It reminds me of I have a niece who was very severely injured in the earthquake in Haiti.

And one time after she'd moved here,

We were listening to that song that I forget who sings it,

Though,

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

And she said,

Kelly,

Do you think this is true?

And I was like,

I think you got to call that one.

I don't think I'm supposed to tell you if I think that's true.

I think like that's that's your call.

And she thinks for a minute and she goes,

No,

I think it makes you weirder.

And I was like,

Yeah,

What doesn't kill you makes you weirder.

I think that's actually probably a,

You know,

A more perfect distillation.

And also,

It's like for myself,

I,

Although,

Especially in the beginning,

I was just so angry.

And actually,

In some ways,

I was less angry after the second loss,

Because,

Well,

For a couple reasons,

One,

Because I knew better how to treat myself,

And I didn't take care as much of the people around me.

So I didn't have that kind of anger built up.

And also,

Because I felt like,

If I let myself be angry,

That was all I was going to be.

And I just I felt like that was not going to work long term.

But for me,

And this is like,

Specifically for me,

And I would hate it if somebody said this to me,

And I never give this as advice to somebody else.

But for me,

Finding meaning,

Right in loss is kind of,

And whether the meaning is just like,

You know,

Be nicer to the people around you or whatever,

Whatever the meaning is,

Is it was helpful for me in healing and almost if there wouldn't have even been a meeting,

Right?

Like,

I don't think like,

Also,

It's not fair to my partner to be like,

Oh,

Well,

Sorry,

You died at 38.

But you know,

I learned a good lesson from it.

You know,

That seems kind of horrible.

Yeah.

So,

But like,

Whatever meaning I apply to it to kind of get through it.

You know,

That's because that's like the way my brain is wired in the way I'm wired,

Like I'm a Midwesterner,

You know,

Like,

Hey,

Let's,

You know,

Let's see if we can get a project out of this.

You know,

That's how I feel.

So I'm sitting in the Midwest right now cackling because that's true.

Let's see if we can make a little weekend project out of this hammer,

We can build a birdhouse.

So that's,

I know,

That's how I heal.

And I know that's how I've gotten through things in the past.

And so,

You know,

Similarly,

So I don't definitely and I think that's just always such a horrible thing to say to people because also,

It,

You know,

Then if somebody's like,

There's still the law,

You know,

Making meaning of it doesn't make it disappear,

But it makes it more manageable,

Right?

For me,

It makes it more manageable.

I think that's a great response to that.

And a lot of times on coming back,

We talk about making room in our brains and in our hearts and our lives for grief to belong.

And making purpose helps grief,

Like find a place where it fits like you negotiated into a cubby.

And it's still just as big as it was on the day that they died.

But like now you've made a file folder for it.

And so it has somewhere to go.

So I love that idea of like making meaning was helpful for me on my journey.

I want to ask another question that I've heard from people who listen to this podcast who have had multiple back to back losses happen.

And there's this sense of feeling cursed.

So I wonder if this is like a story that you told yourself or if even people joked about it with you like,

Oh,

You must be cursed or like nobody date Kelly because you'll probably die.

Oh,

I mean,

That is,

I mean,

I do appreciate a friend,

A close friend who can actually make that joke.

I remember when,

When I started dating again,

I inherited my second partner's cat,

Which,

You know,

She,

Her cat came to live with me and my nephew was like,

That is the most lesbian inheritance ever.

You know,

That the cat came to live with you.

And when I first started dating again,

Lulu was not,

The cat was not digging that,

You know,

Like she'd meet the person at the bedroom door and just like be like,

And then like maybe four years after Cheryl died I brought somebody home and she got Lulu's approval.

And I remember one of my friends said,

Yeah,

Kelly,

I knew you had another relationship and yeah,

I just didn't know if Lulu did.

So I do definitely have had people,

I don't,

I,

I always feel like a close friend who can actually joke about that.

I really appreciate it.

I did have a feeling kind of,

Because also the losses in some way were so similar,

Like both women died at 38.

Both women died of cancer,

You know,

And that's a pretty young age.

And then also with Cheryl,

Where it's something where she had such a curable cancer,

But instead of dying of the cancer,

She died of the cure.

I asked my friend who was an epidemiologist,

I was like,

Could you figure out the likelihood of that?

And she started and she's like,

You know what?

I don't think that's going to be helpful for you to know.

And there is a sense in which,

You know,

Especially cause I have like kind of this extensive background as an evangelical Christian and also I'm not like,

Okay,

God,

What are you trying to tell me?

Even though I kind of have this thought though,

You know,

Like this relationship with God where I'm like,

Oh,

That guy's my ex.

I'm not,

You know,

You know,

I always wanted to make it work,

But you know,

We could just never,

It never quite did.

So I already have that kind of like,

I don't know,

Troubled,

Not even troubled,

But like,

You know,

Intimate,

But yet a sparring relationship to begin with.

And so it's almost in the sense of like,

Okay,

That's one,

One way to look at it is I'm cursed.

That is one possibility.

And I really think if I had been a straight woman,

I think it would have been a lot harder to find another person.

Like I have,

I have a tattoo on my chest that has the,

That was designed for me by Heather,

My first partner I lost,

And it is filled in with her ashes,

Which seemed like a great idea at the time.

And then later I was like,

Oh my God,

I'm never going to have sex again,

But I'm having sex with women.

So like they were just like,

That was almost not even a turn off.

That was something they were like,

Oh,

That's so sweet.

So I was like,

Oh,

Thank goodness.

You know,

Like that people are kind of like,

You know,

Emotionally attuned or don't mind that kind of like what other people might think is kind of morbid.

So I feel very lucky in that way that I didn't feel undateable,

You know.

And that helped a lot in not feeling cursed,

Right.

To feel like I can have another relationship and you know,

And also something very sweet that one of the guys from my grief,

My first group that I was involved in after Cheryl died,

He started,

He had been afraid to date again and then he started dating me again.

And he was like,

You know,

You're the reason,

Like Cheryl's death is the reason why I'm dating again.

And I was like,

Really?

Why that makes no sense?

And he goes,

Because the very worst thing that we always worry about happening,

Which is to lose another person,

Happened to you and you're still standing.

So I guess I can take that chance.

Mm.

That's a,

An interesting insight.

And I'm thinking in the back of my head,

I'm like,

And yet you'll never really know what this is like.

Like,

It's a,

It's a comparative grief experience where he's like,

I'm afraid to date blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And here you are having lost two partners in the past.

How many years was it?

Yeah.

It was like five years between Heather's death and Cheryl's death.

So yeah.

Yeah.

And the course of five years and he's like,

No,

I'm feeling brave.

I don't know how I feel about that.

Right.

But also fine.

If you want to use my grief as motivation,

You go right ahead.

But he had also lost a partner.

Right.

So in a way it was,

You know,

I was,

But he,

He lost a partner but was afraid to date again.

And then I started dating again and lost another partner.

And he said like that everyone who loses a partner,

That's what they're afraid of,

Right?

Is losing the second person.

That's why they don't,

They're like,

Oh,

I can't go through that grief again.

But the thing is you can,

Right?

I mean you can,

You don't really have any people like,

Oh,

I can't believe you're still standing.

I'm like,

Well,

What are the choices here?

You know,

I'm a New Yorker.

You can't just like look down in the gutter and die.

Stick,

You know?

Yeah.

And that's,

That's so that's just so well said because that is the worst fear is if I love again,

If I risk again,

If I,

If I get into another relationship,

I'm going to lose them too.

And you're like,

Well,

I survived that.

Do you feel invincible?

This is the opposite of the question.

Do you feel cursed?

But do you ever feel invincible now?

You're like,

I've survived the worst and then the second worst.

You know,

In some ways kind of like I do feel especially like after I kind of started to like reassemble my life,

It did start to feel like not invincibility,

But it did start to feel like some of the movie Forrest Gump,

There's a scene where Captain Dan who lost his legs in,

You know,

He's the guy that Forrest Gump saved and he lost his legs and there's a scene where they're like in the sea and he is up and there's a huge storm,

A hurricane and Captain Dan is on top of the mass during,

During a storm and he's like waving up in the heaven.

He's like,

Bring it on,

Bring it on.

This is a showdown,

You and me.

And that's sometimes kind of how I felt like,

Yeah,

Bring it on,

Bring it on.

I mean,

Then nothing terrible happens and I feel awful,

But there is a sense in which I do,

And I have to say there is something that's a little lonely about it because,

You know,

Sometimes I don't want to hear about other people's stupid shit,

You know?

I think there's a way in which I'm like,

Oh,

Am I turning into my father that I'm like,

No,

Everyone's just as happy as they make up their mind they're going to be,

You know,

And I don't really feel that way,

But like sometimes when I see people struggle with what to me looks like,

You know,

Like really you,

You know,

Like I saw somebody that I work with today,

The thing that holds the condiments in the refrigerator,

Like the little metal thing came undone and she was like,

I can't believe this came undone.

And in my head I was thinking,

I can't believe you think this is a big deal,

You know?

Yeah,

Totally.

Which is never happy or never healthy.

It's never helpful,

I don't know whether it's healthy or not,

But it's never helpful,

Right?

Because,

You know,

Well,

You know,

Comparing losses or whatever,

That's never helpful because even though once in a while perspective might be helpful,

It never actually makes you feel better,

You know?

If I ran into somebody who lost four partners,

I don't think it would make me feel like,

Oh,

Well thank God I've only lost two,

You know?

Well,

Maybe it would because I am kind of western in that way,

But I wouldn't want somebody to say it to me as a way to console me,

You know?

Sure,

And I'll say,

You know,

We talk a lot on this podcast about not comparing losses as like that's kind of a no-no,

But I should add like an addendum to that,

Don't compare losses out loud because God knows we're all doing it in our heads.

Right,

Right,

Absolutely.

I have different jobs and all kinds of stuff happens at all three of them and there are people running around with their hair on fire,

Like the whole thing is a crisis and I'm just sitting in the middle of the room,

I'm like,

My mom's not dying,

So like this isn't that bad.

But it's all based on my personal scale of what I've been through and so for them,

I'm like,

I'm sure this is like a Def Con,

You know,

Whatever the highest number,

I don't know what the highest number is,

Whatever the Def Con number is that's terrible,

I'm sure it's that level for them where I'm like sitting there,

I'm like,

You know,

We could figure this out.

Like it's not rocket science,

You know,

It's not rocket science,

It's not death,

It's not,

You know,

It's not that dire of a situation,

But then I have to remember to put my feet on the ground and say,

Oh,

This is a crisis for them,

Even if it's not for me,

And respect how that's happening.

But all this is dialogue is happening.

Yeah,

Right inside my head.

Right.

Yeah.

And also because sometimes then that kind of cuts you off from compassion,

Like,

And then and then that's no fun,

Because then that does contribute.

That does contribute to the loneliness,

Right?

Like the kind of like,

You know,

Like,

Oh,

You think that's a problem that I mean,

There's gonna inevitably be some of that.

And I do feel like sometimes I have,

Especially people have like a lot of privilege,

And,

And they,

You know,

Yeah,

So there was a guy sitting next to me in an airplane on the flight I took a couple days ago.

And it was like one of the flights with it had anyway,

Basically,

He thought that I was encroaching on his space,

What he does not know is that fat people are extremely aware on airplanes on whether or not we're encroaching on people's space.

And I knew I was barely if all encroaching on his space because of the fat stuff.

And he was just so upset about it.

And in my head,

I was thinking,

How hard is it to be such a huge crybaby that this is such a terrible thing for you?

You know,

That this totally like a 40 minute flight,

Where somebody's shoulder brushed you is just like a tragedy.

It almost makes you like I did almost feel sorry for him because I was like,

Well,

You know,

You seem more upset about that,

You know,

Than I was about having to have a knee replacement,

You know,

Like,

That there is there is a,

You know,

There is there is a certain kind of tragedy and having no tragedy as well.

So and I have to remind myself of that sometime.

Yeah,

You're absolutely right.

And that,

That compassion element goes missing.

When that happens.

Yeah,

That's,

I just want to breathe in,

Breathe out,

And acknowledge that that's a reality that all grievers live in at some point,

Especially.

We're recording this in November,

But we're going into the holiday season.

And there are so many things that could seem like a crisis in the holidays.

Like we burned the turkey or we didn't pick up the gifts on layaway or we forgot to order the screwdriver to put the dollhouse together,

Whatever.

And I'm like,

You know,

It's all I'm like,

I'm still alive.

Aren't I?

Yeah,

Am I still here?

Okay,

Good.

So you kind of run down the checklist in your head.

I want to circle back to something you were talking about at the very beginning with your first partner who died Heather and this process in Oregon of physician assisted suicide.

And this is something that I talked about on the very first full length episode of coming back.

There was an article I believe in the Wall Street Journal about a man from Canada who planned and orchestrated his own death and was present at his wake and then died,

Died by medically assisted suicide like two or three days later,

Which is family and friends.

And the picture they painted of it was something that was so like,

I got to be in charge of this,

As opposed to,

You know,

I my life was extended longer than I wanted it to be.

I died in a hospital.

I wasn't surrounded by family,

Like all these things that happened that add additional pain or layers of pain onto grief.

And so I'm wondering what your experience of that was like as her partner.

Well,

I always say,

You know,

Assisted suicide would not have been my choice,

But it wasn't my choice to make.

And I do have,

You know,

There's very complicated,

There's a lot of worries about it being available,

Right?

Like,

If insurance companies could suggest that we kill ourselves instead of having expensive treatment,

That would be their recommendation always,

Right?

So,

And people with disabilities have a very real fear of somebody else assigning like,

Oh,

Well,

That's not a life worth living.

So there are,

I just want to say,

It's very important,

Like I would never want to talk about without saying there's extremely scary political stuff,

Including some political nuances.

You know,

That makes me,

That there is no way,

You know,

I'm not a person,

You know,

On the sidelines with,

Everyone needs assisted suicide.

So I,

That's,

You know,

My caveat.

For Heather,

When we went to,

She had told me when I,

We were originally in a long distance relationship and she said,

Like,

You know,

This isn't a great time to be alive.

You want to be in a relationship with me,

You might want to move because it's a bad time to be in long distance.

And it was,

It was terrible.

And so before I did that,

She said,

You know,

If things get as bad as they were,

She had like this unremitting nausea for like 10 weeks.

And she's like,

If it gets bad like that again,

I'm going to try and,

You know,

Figure out a legal way to do this.

And I think it's only fair that if you are going to come and we are going to be together that,

That you,

You don't have to be necessarily super on board,

But I need you to not oppose it.

And I said,

Yes,

Because,

You know,

You say yes to when somebody's dying.

And when we went to talk with the assisted suicide liaison,

When it seemed like it was getting that point,

There's nothing special person that you go and talk to it.

It was at the hospital where Heather was getting chemo and she started with saying,

Well,

Now this is not a choice for everyone.

This is a choice for somebody who really wants to take charge.

And then all of us,

There was like seven of us,

You know,

Her friends and me and you know,

Another person.

And we're all like,

Oh,

Oh,

Like just,

You know,

Almost like crumple up the paper and toss it over our backs because that was exactly,

I called her my queen.

Like she was the boss and that was the arrangement,

You know?

And so it was very much that.

And I do feel like it did give her,

It gave her the ability to take back some control.

So,

You know,

It doesn't make dying at 38 any better,

But it made it less prolonged.

And also,

You know,

What is often the way when somebody gets sick and then gets better again and they get sick and live better,

You know,

They're kind of ends up being extremely protracted series of goodbyes,

Which often isn't that fun for the dying person.

It's like everyone wants to say goodbye,

But they're like,

I've already said goodbye four times.

And having an actual idea of when the actual end is going to come in some ways was very helpful.

Like,

Like I emailed all her friends and asked them to like put out a one word description of her and then all her,

You know,

She had like an email list,

Like kind of before the lots of helping hands or whatever.

And so everyone sent like beautiful stuff to her and I got it to read her,

Read it to her out loud.

And we all spent a day together as kind of this very,

You know,

Wild scene of like all of us,

We lived in a converted Hare Krishna temple in Portland,

Very,

Not really very converted,

But you know,

And like all her friends were there dressed in like full leather and like,

You know,

Like very like just kind of celebrating her in the way she would want to be celebrated.

And so that there was something very beautiful and terrible about that day.

It was exactly the right send off for her.

Also,

It was terrible.

Everything about it was terrible.

I wish that you know,

The person who I didn't do the negotiation for the actual like picking up the stuff in the pharmacy,

But stirring the stuff into the like chocolate pudding was terrible.

The process was terrible.

You know,

There was nothing about it.

I still felt like,

Oh,

Maybe that wasn't quick enough.

Did we do it wrong?

We didn't know if it was going to work at first.

It was terrible,

But it was exactly what she wanted.

So in that way,

It felt like a gift to her.

Thank you for going into so much detail there,

Because that's a host of perspectives that I had never heard before on assisted suicide.

Because basically what exists right now is what news outlets decide to write about it.

There's not a lot of people who are out there telling these stories.

I'm thinking with the chocolate pudding,

This developed into a routine of yours,

Did it not?

Yeah,

I have a show that I actually wrote it very shortly after she died,

Like within a year.

It was called Pudding Day.

It was like a one person show,

Like a 50 minute show,

Mostly about kind of like our romance,

Which started so quickly,

Like she was sick at the very beginning of our relationship.

So it's interesting to have new relationship energy and also the person dying.

That's kind of an interesting thing.

It was kind of beautiful.

It seemed like,

It was very beautiful.

It felt like a gift to each other.

There was something very kind of wild and romantic about it in that way,

And horrible.

Writing about that and then also kind of the last days.

She was extremely frank about her death.

I talk about how a couple weeks before she died,

I called her and I said,

I'm at the grocery store,

Do you need anything?

She said,

Yeah,

How about a quarter pound of the will to live?

I was like,

Oh,

Okay,

She's going to go there.

I said,

Well honey,

You know how it is.

I'm a Trader Joe's and they only had organic,

Now they're out.

She said,

Oh,

God damn,

I had a coupon too.

We were able to talk that frankly about death.

I actually do a presentation at,

Inevitably it's the LGBT group that brings me in.

Then the presentation is called Laughter at the End of Life.

It's kind of talking about both some of the research that has been done about kind of quote unquote gallows humor and then also some of the kind of these personal stories and what we learned from it and stuff.

Inevitably,

It's the LGBT employees group that brings me to a hospital or a nursing school or something like that.

Then all the social workers and all the hospice people come because all their clients are using humor and they've just never been taught how to handle it.

That's been one of the interesting things and I think that's something that Heather would be very proud of,

That she would love being talked about 11 years later for being fierce.

That ended up,

I have to say,

That was 2008,

So whatever,

11 years ago.

Really nobody wanted to hear that story 11 years ago.

I think if I decided I wanted to tour that show now,

I think people would be more interested in having those conversations.

That was not a show anyone was fighting on then.

I do do a lot of performance around.

I have a whole,

I'm actually working on a Lego video to go with it,

Which is my kind of send up of widow camp,

Comparing it to summer camp.

There is a lot that got inserted into comedy and storytelling for sure.

What's changed in 11 years where this story has become something that people want to receive or sit down for or bring into their workplaces?

Well,

I think specifically assisted suicide,

There are more states that have considered the,

Have either passed legislation or considered it.

It's more part of the public conversation.

Brittany Maynard was very instrumental in kind of having a very mainstream discussion about it.

I do think the aging of baby boomers is helping because people are thinking about end of life and there's just a very large group of people thinking about end of life and they're powerful.

I think that helps.

I think one of the things is when we talk about assisted suicide,

Heather used assisted suicide to end her life and it was very,

I don't know if it was peaceful,

But it was,

It was the way she wanted to go.

And Cheryl died in the ICU at a large medical center,

But she did not,

And she did also did not have a death that was,

You know,

Some of the deaths we most fear where you're being held,

You know,

Kept alive by machines kind of when you don't want to be,

And they're doing CPR on somebody who is never going to actually regain consciousness,

You know,

Kind of that kind of thing.

Because we had safeguards in place to make sure that wasn't right.

Like Heather died in my arms,

Cheryl died in my arms peacefully,

As peacefully as somebody can go,

Right,

At 38 years old especially.

So I think one of the things is that physician assisted suicide is kind of almost like a symptom.

The need for it is a symptom partly because we haven't talked enough about end of life stuff and people don't know all the options that there are and don't understand what the options mean,

You know.

I mean there are some extreme cases,

Like one of the most common things is ALS.

That's one of the most common reasons people are complete,

The physician assisted suicide.

You know,

And that something can be a very protracted thing and people feel very,

You know,

There's also some like discomfort and so there's that specific kind of scenario.

But like as far as,

You know,

That's not always,

That's not the most common scenario.

And in fact,

I don't know what the stats are right now,

But a year that Heather used in 2007,

There's like maybe 200 people in Oregon who made the application,

190 people got approved,

Like maybe 75% of those people picked up the medication and only like half of those used it.

So for a lot of people,

Just knowing that they have an out is actually a very,

Very helpful thing that people know they're not going to get to a place where they're completely ready to be done and they're really suffering and they can't and they have to just suffer,

You know.

And for grief growers tuning into this who have never heard of medically assisted suicide before,

Or like it's a vague idea,

Know that where it is legal,

There are laws regarding how you obtain these medications.

And one of the biggest ones is you must agree to stop all preventative care.

It's very similar to like entering hospice.

So it's not a thing where you can sign up to die and then they'll just give you the drugs.

You have to go through a whole rigmarole of paperwork and yeah,

All these things to obtain the,

Do I want to say the privilege,

The medication to die.

And I think this is really important.

I wrote down as you were speaking because I was thinking about you having these two partners who died both at 38,

Both from the same thing and this notion of,

You know,

Am I cursed to keep marrying people that die?

And then I wrote down,

We're all in a relationship with a dying person.

Yeah,

Yeah.

We just don't know when.

Right,

Right.

Yeah,

That's absolutely true.

And also the other thing that,

You know,

I do realize it's a huge privilege that there are people who go their whole lives and are never seen or loved the way that I was loved by Heather or the very different way that I was loved by Cheryl.

Right?

Like I know that is a very,

Many people live without that their whole life.

So,

And also like many LGBT people maybe a hundred years ago would never even have the ability to live an out life like that where it was acknowledged,

You know,

And that the loss was even acknowledged.

So I understand the privilege of that.

And you know,

Even now,

You know,

Now I'm in another lovely,

Like beautiful difference,

Of course,

In the relationship and to have three people,

You know,

And I believe like,

You know,

There's lots of different ways to love and people have all sorts of different ways of experiencing love.

But in that specific way,

I feel very,

I mean,

I feel lucky,

You know.

Can we take a moment to just dive into the role of humor and grief?

Because I think a lot of people are afraid to make jokes because for fear of being seen as inappropriate or not respectful of what's happening and then other people jump right to making jokes or like gallows humor because they're like,

This is how I cope.

And I feel like I saw this on your website,

But something I read in relation to you was comedy equals tragedy plus time.

So I'm wondering kind of how you construct humor or even have an identity of being funny after so many awful things have happened in your life.

Well,

Yeah,

I think the comedy is tragedy plus time.

I think Carol Burnett said that,

But it might be somebody else.

But the follow up that I say,

You know,

Like when I first started doing my thing about,

You know,

My piece about Widow camp,

One of the things I'd say is I try and get some audience buy in,

Right?

Because if you're going to joke about your dead partners,

You want people to,

You know,

You almost want to invite them to ask for it.

Like,

Hey,

You guys ready to hear joke about my dead partners?

Yeah,

Okay.

You know,

That kind of thing.

But I always say like,

You know,

Humor is,

You know,

Or comedy is tragedy plus time.

My tragedy,

I decide how much time so that,

You know,

Gets people to remember,

Okay,

If you're laughing about it,

And sometimes it's a little harder if an audience if an audience,

An audience can't laugh at somebody they they feel pity for that's kind of a not a hearty laugh,

You know,

There can be a little pity left,

But if they're feeling pity,

So one of the things that the audience has to feel that I am okay.

And I think right after I mean,

One thing is,

You know,

Is 11 years ago,

When Heather died,

And I hadn't been performing,

I'd only been performing comedy,

Like five or six years,

You know,

Now I've been at it for a long time.

And I have more confidence.

So I am able to better portray I am okay.

Also,

I believe I am okay in a way I didn't like after Heather died,

I was like,

Oh,

I wonder if you can just break from this,

Like,

Am I just gonna crumble into pieces,

You know,

So I have more confidence,

Even after Cheryl died,

I was like,

You know,

I mean,

In a way was terrible,

Like when my,

My friend came to,

You know,

I signed the DNR.

And,

You know,

I just finished the signature.

And she said,

So and I said,

Yeah,

The problem is not even right now,

The problem is I know what tomorrow feels like,

You know,

Because I'd already the morning when you wake up and the person's not beside you,

I already knew what that felt like.

But I also knew that it was possible to survive it.

And there that is something that is very helpful to know,

Well,

I did live this through this before.

And these are the things that worked.

And these are the things that made it worse.

And I didn't have a lot of tolerance for people.

You know,

You lose friends in grief,

You lose friends,

That is,

There's no,

That that just happens.

Some people disappear and people you never thought could come could hang with you do.

And that's,

I've just come to accept that that's part of it.

And that's part of the tragedy in some ways,

But it just is,

You know,

The idea that grief is a language and if you don't speak it,

You just don't speak it.

So anyway,

So I think once I had the confidence that I knew that I was going to be okay,

You know,

Okay with maybe a small O,

I think that helped people more be able to laugh about it on stage.

With Heather,

It certainly helped that she was very funny.

And then I'll say like,

Well,

You know,

Humor,

Like gala's humor around death and stuff is you have to follow,

You have to be,

You have to kind of follow the lead of the person who's most impacted by it.

So you can,

You know,

Use a baseball analogy,

You know,

Queer,

I'm a queer person,

I use a baseball analogy like the person who is suffering most gets to throw the ball and then you get to catch it,

But you don't throw it back any harder than it was thrown at you,

You know?

Oh,

I like that.

That's visual.

Yeah.

So that,

I mean,

That helps people understand like,

Oh,

Because often I remember sitting with Cheryl at chemo at Beth Israel and you know,

It's New York.

So of course,

Of course,

You know,

The person next door is some famous opera singer.

And so the person was saying,

You know,

And how in chemo suites,

You're like lined up like a bunch of cows,

You know,

Ready for milking.

And so it's all open.

And so the guy was saying,

You know,

This doesn't work.

What I'm hoping is that I'm just going to drop dead on stage.

He's like,

It's going to be terrible for the audience,

But awesome for me.

You know,

He was joking around,

Which is such a New Yorker thing to say as well.

And the nurses came over and shushed him,

Right?

And I understand partly why they shushed him.

It was partly because they were worried about the other patients being uncomfortable.

Like maybe the patients who didn't have a diagnosis where they could die or,

Or they were likely to die or I don't know,

But really the people who were most uncomfortable and I say this as a nurse and having a great compassion for healthcare providers,

They were the ones who are really uncomfortable.

They were uncomfortable.

They shushed him for them,

You know?

And I felt like,

Yeah,

Cause nobody taught them.

Nobody taught them that,

You know,

You could joke around with the patient or you could even say like,

Whoa,

You think everyone wants to hear that?

Or like there's,

There's a thousand ways besides shushing that you might,

And also maybe that was the only way he was going to talk about death,

Right?

Maybe that was the only way that,

You know,

65 year old man of a certain era or a certain age was going to be able to talk about his feelings about death.

And then you just shut that down,

You know,

Or they just shut that down.

Yeah,

That makes perfect sense.

And I literally just wrote down this question for you of as,

As a nurse,

As someone who has both been a partner to and a companion to people who are dying and as somebody who just is around a lot of hard things being in the comedy world,

What's like the number one thing that you wish people who did not have your perspective knew?

Like if you could just infuse their brains with like,

Here's some knowledge and now I wish everyone knew this.

What would that be?

I mean,

I don't know one thing.

One thing I think that is important that people know is that listening or being present is doing something.

Not running away is doing something.

You know,

My mom and I had kind of a,

She's a very,

You know,

Fervent,

Evangelical Christian.

And so when I came out,

It was not easy for her and it was not easy for our relationship.

But Heather died in 2007 and her husband died into like the end of that year.

And I just sat with her afterwards.

We didn't talk.

We didn't even watch TV.

We just sat.

And that like just gave a gift to our relationship that's completely changed and made it,

I mean,

It's kind of like we're peers in some way.

Right.

And my mom almost says like,

Oh,

That was just such a gift.

That was just such a gift.

I didn't know what else to do.

So that's why I did.

And I hated it when people like kind of forced things on me in the early,

Early stages,

Especially.

But especially,

You know,

She's like a,

You know,

A Midwestern lady of a certain age.

So the idea that somebody would just sit with her felt very,

I want to say almost strange,

But like sometimes the best thing you can do for somebody is to not disappear,

You know,

And the kind of corollary of that.

Sometimes people who are grieving,

People who are grieving,

Especially in the early stages,

Just want who they want around.

And sometimes it's personal,

But oftentimes it's not.

It's just you need the person that you have easiest access to or the person who doesn't worry so much about food or the person,

You know,

Like you need who's the person,

You need the consolation from the person you need consolation from.

And sometimes that isn't going to be the person who maybe would like to be there.

And that's really,

Really hard for people.

I had circumstances with that and I realized that's really that it's a terrible rejection,

But also in the same way that being present for somebody is a gift,

Going the hell away when someone needs you to go away,

You know,

Checking in,

Putting in your calendar six months later,

Call this person,

You know,

Giving somebody a little space when they specifically requested it,

That also can be a beautiful,

Beautiful gift.

Yeah,

You're absolutely right.

And it's this weird kind of nonverbal dance of I want you,

But I don't want you.

And so if,

If non grieving people could just understand the,

The weird pressure of living in that space of like,

I want comfort,

But only from these specific people.

And maybe not today,

Maybe in like two weeks.

It's such an hour,

20 minutes or 20 minutes.

We never like,

We don't operate this way in like the quote unquote normal world.

I'm thinking of like in our workplaces or even with our intimate partners or with our kids,

We're like,

No,

We're leaving for the park in 15 minutes and all of us are going to be like,

That's how we schedule our lives.

And it's not so emotionally curated.

And so I love that that would be like,

Here's the one thing I need to inject into everybody's brains because they need to understand like what that feels like,

Because it's such a specific experience to want comfort from certain people in certain pockets of time and then to want others to go away.

And then,

You know,

In the next minute or the next hour to want everyone to show up again.

It's such a,

Nobody's really giving language to that.

So thank you for saying that.