How To Make Meaningful Change In The World

Welcome to the Shifting with Marlee podcast.

I'm Marlee.

Thank you for joining me wherever you are.

All that I ask of you,

The listener,

Is to have an open mind and an open heart.

And in return,

I offer you myself.

Today,

We're going to talk about how to make change,

How to be an effective changemaker,

And how to find what's yours to do during these times of chaos and crisis.

Because we are living in a world in flux.

We are living at the point of both collapse and renewal,

The space between worlds where the old world is falling away and a new world is being born.

Our world is being reshaped,

And we are each part of the reshaping.

We each have a role to play.

We are each an important part of the larger whole.

So today,

We're going to learn how to take meaningful action in co-creating the new world being born.

And in doing so,

It's my intention that this help us move out of the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness when facing a world in crisis,

And instead into our seat of power and creation.

To quote our guest today,

We are not passive passengers,

But co-creators of what comes next.

Let's dive in.

Here to guide us on this journey today and share her wisdom and perspective is Laura Hartley.

Laura is a writer,

Activist,

And leadership coach and founder of Scintilla Center,

Which equips changemakers with the wisdom,

Skills,

And community to remake the world.

This is also Laura's third time gracing us with her presence on this podcast.

You may remember Laura from episode 29 from 2022,

Getting Free,

Where we talked about healing from burnout and internalized capitalism.

And also episode 39 from 2023,

Finding Freedom,

Where we explored what it means to be truly free.

Welcome back,

Laura.

Oh my gosh,

Thank you so much.

I'm so happy to be here.

Thank you so much for coming back a third time.

You are one of my favorite people to talk to,

So I'm just feeling really grateful and I'm truly honored to know you.

Oh,

I mean,

Right back at you.

So thank you.

Laura,

It's been two years,

If you can believe it,

Since our last conversation.

Time flies.

And in that time,

The world has changed.

You and I have changed and your work has evolved a lot.

So I'm really excited to dive in today.

Thank you.

And it has.

It's been a big two years,

Right?

It really has.

Let's dive in,

A lot to discuss today.

And so to start off,

Laura,

Let's get deep right away.

Let's name the root causes of the poly crises facing our world today.

And by poly crises,

For those listening,

I mean multiple crises that are deeply interconnected and entangled.

So,

Laura,

Can you please share with us the root causes of these interconnected crises?

Oh,

My gosh.

OK,

So it's a big question to start.

And I think,

You know,

As you're saying,

It's probably worth like defining like what we're talking about when we're talking about the poly crisis,

Because it is a term that's kind of coming to more consciousness and more use,

But it's not one that we commonly use,

You know,

In everyday life.

But when we're talking about the poly crisis,

We're really talking exactly,

As you said,

Interconnecting deeply entangled crises that we're facing at the same time.

So we have a crisis,

Let's say we have the climate crisis.

You know,

We have warming,

Increasing CO2 emissions.

You know,

We have the climate crisis.

We have biodiversity loss.

We have increasing authoritarianism.

You know,

The rise of fascism,

The rise of,

You know,

Dictatorships that are happening around the world,

You know,

Many,

Many different countries right now.

We have immigration crises.

You know,

We have people who are having to increasingly flee their homes,

You know,

Are having to move and become refugees and move overseas and move to different parts of the world,

You know,

Which,

Again,

Is kind of driven often by economic crises,

By the climate crisis,

By political instability that we're facing.

We have increasing amounts of war and global conflict that is happening.

And so all of these things together are kind of like are informing the polycrisis.

It's never just one thing anymore.

You know,

When you open the headlines and it's kind of like,

Oh my gosh,

It's like it's just one thing after the other.

When is this actually going to end?

Well,

All of these things are interconnected.

All of these things are influencing each other.

And so when we're looking at what is the root of all of the crises that we're facing right now,

It's really difficult to answer because in some ways there isn't a clear root,

Right?

That is kind of the point of this.

Each one influences the other.

Each one is interconnected with the other.

There's no one nice little line going back.

But one of the things that we can look at when we're looking at these crises is the underlying beliefs,

Mindsets,

Values,

Stories that shape them.

You know,

We have cultural stories of scarcity that say there's never enough.

We always need to be having more.

You know,

We have cultural stories of domination and this kind of power over paradigm where like we need to be in control,

We need to dominate,

You know,

We need to be in charge and that means someone else needs to be underneath.

You know,

We have stories of violence and villains.

Our othering abilities are very strong.

So we can make an other that that person over there is the problem.

We carry stories of supremacy,

You know,

Very much like the stories of domination.

And these are,

You know,

Obviously stories that we carry over other people.

They're stories we carry over the earth itself,

That we consider humans to be the most valuable life form on this earth.

And so when we're looking at the roots of all these crises and we start to look at them,

Well actually,

What are the mindsets?

What are the stories,

The beliefs,

The values that shape us?

Then we're really looking at the root.

Then we're looking at something tangible we can start to touch and work with.

Yes,

Exactly.

I love that answer so much.

I love the way that you so eloquently explain things,

Which is why I love having you on the podcast and I also just want to add as well some additional cultural mindsets,

Beliefs,

And systems that I believe are the root causes.

Extraction.

That's a big one.

Separation and disconnection,

I think are huge root causes.

Capitalism and everything associated with that,

Such as urgency,

Culture,

Scarcity that you mentioned.

I also think you mentioned the othering.

Going further with that,

This story of us versus them.

That's one that's very foundational to the culture that we live in.

It's partly this sense of powerlessness that we also feel and this separation that leads us to say,

Well,

We're islands and we need to protect what is ours and it's a dog-eat-dog world and it's us versus them.

It's survival of the fittest.

Our world becomes very narrow,

Very insular,

Very small.

Of course,

Then,

For our own idea of what we consider to be safety,

Whether that's safe in reality or whether that's just safe in our fantasies or in our mind is a whole other conversation.

We're like,

Oh,

It's them,

It's those people over there,

It's not us.

That also is just the root of so many of the crises that we're seeing because then when we encounter pain and we encounter trauma and we encounter people who are suffering or we encounter something that is radically different to what we're used to,

We go into kind of protection mode and we're going to shut down,

Turn away,

Turn off the empathy,

It's them,

It's over there,

I can't deal with this.

All of these systems that you're talking about that shape our world,

Certainly our economic system,

These other ideas of separation that we're from the earth,

From each other,

From our own hearts,

These are all leading to the crises that we're facing.

Exactly.

And you also touched on this,

The crisis of dehumanization that's happening as a result of all of these as well,

I want to bring up.

And then I also just want to say hierarchy,

That's part of it as well.

Colonialism,

Imperialism,

Huge root causes.

And then I also just want to say regarding the culture of violence that you mentioned,

It's this culture of retribution and the story of an eye for an eye,

Big root cause.

Of course,

Everything we just mentioned results in wounds on many levels and everything that that then entails,

Which then spirals and feeds the crises.

So I think it's really important to understand these root causes.

And in my view,

Laura,

Genuinely,

Everything we just mentioned,

These root causes,

They are basically the root causes,

In my view,

Of almost all of our personal and collective problems,

When you boil it down.

Yeah,

We've had this interesting conversation on podcasts before around this relationship between self and world,

Right,

That there's this kind of mirror that happens between what is happening in our collective spaces and what's happening in our individual or our personal lives.

So,

Like,

I don't think it's a surprise that when we're,

You know,

Facing rising authoritarianism and,

You know,

We're facing massive climate breakdown and we're facing economic instability,

That we're also then facing massive amounts of loneliness,

That we're facing massive amounts of depression,

Of burnout.

We're mirroring the very systems that shape our world.

And so it almost becomes a feedback loop that keeps the system in place.

OK,

Because if we are depressed and we feel powerless and we're alone,

We can't challenge a system.

So it's very easy for the system then to just keep perpetuating.

So it's a very smart kind of outcome of the system.

But similarly,

You know,

It's also just a really natural consequence of a world that's not designed for well-being.

And so we're experiencing all of these things together.

And the relationship between self and world and that mirror there,

And that's one of the reasons I always go straight to,

Like,

Mindset,

Beliefs,

Values,

Stories,

Is really important because we can start to see the way that all of these crises and their roots and their origins live within us.

Exactly.

That internal and external world connection.

They're deeply and connected when we talk about the poly crisis.

Exactly.

And,

You know,

The outer crises are connected and entangled with our inner wounds.

And that's going to be important to remember as we continue this conversation today.

And we talk about effective change making in a little bit.

But before we get into that,

Laura,

And you just touch on this,

I want to chat about the conditions that don't promote meaningful or effective change.

Can you please share with us some of the things holding us back and blocking us from meaningful and effective change?

Oh,

My gosh.

OK,

So I love this question.

There's a few things that immediately come to mind.

The first is,

I think we sometimes try to,

Like,

Tweak the system rather than actually building something new.

You know,

We consider these things as like Band-Aid patches that if I can just,

Like,

Change this little thing over here.

And don't get me wrong,

Little changes can lead to massive results when they're implemented in the right space.

But we do need to recognize that our world is in massive need of remaking.

Right.

We are facing massive interconnected crises,

You know,

That affect every way in which we live.

They affect the way that we eat,

The way that we travel,

The way that we relate to one another,

The way that we govern our cities.

Like,

So,

So much needs to change.

And so I think sometimes this idea of we can kind of tweak around the edges is something that kind of holds us back a little bit.

I would say two other things,

Though,

That are probably even much,

Much bigger than this.

You know,

The first is the belief in our powerlessness,

That we don't think we can do anything.

Who am I?

I'm just one person.

You know,

This problem's so big,

It's all the way over there.

What am I supposed to do?

This belief that genuinely we don't have agency and choice and power and creativity and imagination,

That we can't work together,

That we can't choose something new again.

We can in any moment in every day we get to choose and we get to work towards creating the world that we want.

We are active participants in it.

We are not just like passively bystanding while this is all happening.

We are all co-creating the world.

So that belief in our powerlessness definitely holds us back from being effective change agents.

I would also say for those of us who are actively engaged in change making,

Another thing that holds us back is a little bit what we were talking about before.

This idea of otherizing,

Right?

This idea of using shame as a driver of change.

Now,

In activism,

Shame is a really commonly used driver of change,

Right?

That if we tell these people how terrible something is or how bad they are for doing this,

Then they'll want to change.

But this isn't true,

Right?

Most of us know this,

Like shame is deeply uncomfortable.

Like you and I were actually talking about this before.

Most of us want to run like a million miles away from it as soon as it comes.

And it takes a real practice and I think a real sense of safety in community,

In yourself,

In the container to actually allow shame to be anything transformative,

For it allow it to be like some sort of moral transformation within a person.

And let's be real,

Those containers are few and far between in our culture.

And so instead of actually otherizing or shaming,

We need to really be looking at understanding that we're all human.

We're all coming from different perspectives.

We're all coming with different traumas,

Different wounds,

Different ideas of the world.

And we don't have to agree with anything and we don't have to condone anything.

Listening is not the same thing as as agreeing and saying that something is OK.

We're not tolerating what is intolerable here.

But we are actually saying that shame is not a driver of change.

And so the moment I say that this problem is you and you have to do something and the problem is there.

Most people shut down.

And so all of these things are kind of holding us back as change makers.

Right.

So we wind back the othering.

We start to build up the power that we have.

You know,

We start to recognize we're not just tweaking the system like we are in a world in radical need of remaking right now.

We actually need to be experimenting and prototyping and playing with all new different types of systems,

All in our communities,

In our organizations,

In our lives.

And then we start to skill build,

Right,

And move into the world that we want and into the work that we want.

Yes.

And we're going to get into that in a little bit.

And I love that answer so much,

Laura.

This is such an important point.

And I also want to drive something else home.

And this is something I learned from your writing.

In terms of things holding us back from effective change making.

We cannot create meaningful change by mirroring the same energy we want to disrupt.

First of all,

Thank you.

It is such an honor.

And second of all,

Yes,

100 percent.

And third,

It's like I actually love that you kind of write these things or say these things back,

Right,

Because all of this is this co-creative dialogue.

But so much of what we're talking about is things that are contextual.

Right.

And in the moment.

And so I love that,

You know,

Bringing these things in,

We cannot mirror the same systems that we're trying to disrupt.

Right.

Soon as we do that,

We become that system.

Nothing is transforming there.

It might look different.

Right.

You can kind of put a different color on it.

You can make it a slightly different shape.

But it's not transforming it.

And I think one of the things that we really need at this time in the world when we are facing so many existential threats is this fundamentally massive transformation.

And that is a different thing to just kind of tweaking the edges here and mirroring the system and like pushing against it and resisting it and demanding it change.

Like we're looking actually a much deeper root shift to happen in our societies and in our cultures.

Exactly.

And I just want to drive this point home a little bit more because I think it's so important.

We can't create meaningful change from a place,

Like you said,

Of shaming,

Of blaming or othering,

Or from a place of us versus them.

We can't create meaningful change from a place of overwork or burnout.

We can't challenge a system of domination and control from a place of fear and insecurity and self-doubt and overwhelm.

We can't reimagine a new world from a place of exhaustion and scarcity.

Right.

These are all the things that we talked about that are root causes of our problems.

And another way to say it as well,

Another way to put it is we can't exit a conflict from the level of consciousness of that conflict.

That is so beautifully said.

We cannot exit a conflict from the level of consciousness of that conflict.

Right.

Exactly.

That's it.

And right.

And we're going to get into that deeper and how to be effective changemakers from that place.

But I just want to bring up an example from your writing,

Laura,

That I think is important to give people deeper examples of this.

This is just an example of everything we just said.

If we are constantly pushing through our limits,

Working to exhaustion and ignoring the needs of our body.

That just mimics the energy of capitalism and we can't create meaningful change or something new from that place.

I can't help but bring up burnout.

Well,

It's where both you and I like kind of began our work.

Right.

So like,

You know,

When when I started doing this work years ago,

It was born out of the experiences that I saw in climate activism and the experiences I had myself of burnout,

That within a very short time in movement spaces,

People would be exhausted,

They'd have nothing left.

A lot of the time,

Our approach to change was to push harder,

To work harder,

To do longer hours,

To get more people to scale this thing.

And it's not to say that there isn't a place for that,

But a lot of the time we were just mimicking the very same systems that we were trying to disrupt.

That is the exact same energy of capitalism.

You know,

Capitalism is built on scarcity.

It is built on infinite,

Endless growth.

It is built on devaluing complex,

Beautiful living systems.

And so therefore,

If we're really going to create transformation at the level and scale that we need,

Because we need we need transformation at a scale we've never seen before.

That's the reality.

We don't have 100 years to do this right now.

Like,

Not when we're talking about climate change,

Not when we're talking about the impacts to food supplies,

Not when we're talking about the threat of nuclear weapons.

So we need to be acting now.

And if we're looking for that scale of change,

We need to be going deeper.

We need to be going to the root.

We need to be transforming things from the inside out.

And so that's what this all comes back to.

What is the energy that we're trying to bring to making change?

Is it one that is still active?

We're not in any way kind of pushing here for passivity or laying back or saying it'll be fine,

But instead one that is grounded,

One that is energized,

One that is actually embodying the change that we want to see,

That is showing up with conviction,

With compassion,

With love and working from that place.

It's very different.

It is.

And I want to say as well,

One more point regarding burnout in changemaking.

If we're burnt out and exhausted,

Laura,

We cannot access our creativity,

Our empathy.

Our intuition.

And those are essential components for meaningful change.

Right.

They're the greatest skills that we have,

You know,

And we're immediately disconnected from them.

And so,

Again,

If we are considering that their status quo likes to remain as the status quo,

Right,

And this is the case for everything,

You know,

The status quo kind of works,

It's kind of operating,

You know,

It kind of wants to stay as it is.

The moment,

Well,

If we want to actually change that,

Well,

One of the ways it's going to keep operating as a status quo is if we don't actually have the energy to change anything.

If we don't have the creativity to do anything,

We don't have the skills to move past this.

If we feel alone,

Like,

Who am I to do this thing?

So we have to be really resourcing ourselves,

Galvanizing ourselves,

Resourcing our communities so that we can actually bring something forth that is new.

Exactly.

And that actually brings me to my next question,

Laura,

Which is,

What are the important components or attributes or principles or characteristics,

I'll say,

That we need to foster and develop within ourselves as the foundation for effective changemaking?

So I think the first thing that we can develop is really this sense of deep listening,

Right,

Deep listening to ourselves,

Right,

To actually what is happening within us,

Because we all have callings,

We all have something that we are meant to do in this world.

We all have that little voice inside of us that's going like,

Yes,

This thing,

This idea that I've been thinking about for like five years,

But,

You know,

I haven't actioned yet,

But it keeps coming back to me.

That is a calling.

And so deep listening to ourselves and to our hearts,

Deep listening to others,

Right,

Being able to sit in a conversation in which we are uncomfortable,

You know,

In which maybe we're hearing something which we don't agree with,

But which we can still engage.

Deep listening to the earth,

Right,

And to the more than human world,

I think,

Is really important.

And so when we're talking about these skills or these kind of capacities that we can be developing,

You know,

We also have the ability to be discerning,

Which I think follows deep listening.

How are we actually going to make wise and informed choices?

What are we reflecting on to know where our decisions are coming from?

What is right in this moment?

Recognizing there's no binary,

Wonderful magic handbook of right and wrong.

You know,

Sometimes we have to sit in nuance and in grey and in complexity.

I also think one of the things that we can be developing is the willingness to be wrong and to make mistakes.

I think so often we want to have all the answers.

We want to be seen as good.

We want to be seen as right.

And in there is a sense of,

You know,

This deep fear that somehow we're not enough or that we're a bad person if we make a mistake.

And I think things are so much more complex than that.

And so we have to be willing to make mistakes because we're human and we're going to.

Like,

That is just a natural part of life.

But we have to be willing to sit in the like not knowing or in the messiness or in the uncomfortability.

And so this,

I think all of this,

If I'm thinking about this as we speak,

Right,

The listening,

The discerning,

The willingness to be wrong comes back to this ability to be able to just pause and be with what is without the need to run away from it,

Without the need to fix it,

Without the need to save it,

Without the need to immediately act right now from this space.

Can we pause and then can we act discerningly going forward?

That's so beautiful,

Laura,

I totally agree.

I love that answer.

And I'll also bring up as well,

I think building self-trust is huge.

Right.

Well,

I think so many of us don't trust ourselves,

Right?

We've often been conditioned not to.

Like,

That's the reality,

You know,

Particularly for women,

Particularly for people of colour,

Particularly for minority groups,

For queer people.

You know,

This isn't something we've inherently been like,

Oh,

Yes,

You obviously have expertise here and you have,

You know,

Knowledge and experience that is valuable.

No,

We've often been told the opposite.

And so this experience of self-trust,

Right,

Which is built on listening,

Which is built on discernment,

Which is built on pausing,

You know,

Because if we're always in reacting,

We don't have any kind of consciousness of where we're coming from,

We're not going to trust ourselves.

But it's really important that we can develop that so that then we can kind of go forward and have some faith in what we're doing and not second guess ourselves,

Not outsource our agency and our power,

You know,

Not wait for everybody else to have the answer or just follow the magical,

Like,

Right way that we think,

Like,

Somebody else is saying,

Well,

This is what we have to be doing.

No,

That we instead are able to tune into this,

Like,

Inner compass that we have.

So self-trust is so important.

Yes.

And going deeper with that,

Right,

Building our connection to our intuition,

Which is part of self-trust,

And then being able to listen and discern our own intuition and act from that place,

That's big.

You also touched on this,

But building our self-worth is really important with effective changemaking.

I'll also bring up as well,

Connecting in with our compassion and our empathy is huge.

Having an open heart and an open mind,

I think,

Is really important.

Developing care and cooperation and that ability to be in community,

I think,

Is going to be huge.

And also,

Forgiveness and being in touch with our inherent love that we have.

Yeah.

And I think it's interesting when you touch on the compassion piece there,

I think,

In some ways,

This is counterintuitive,

The right word?

I don't think it's quite the right word that I'm going for here.

But essentially,

You know,

Of course,

Those of us who care about the world have deep compassion.

And it's also then easy to become overwhelmed by everything that is happening in the world to the point that our compassion shuts off or that our compassion becomes for certain people,

But not others.

And so we consider it this kind of finite resource or we select and choose in what context it is available.

And certainly we withhold it a lot of the times from ourselves.

So when we're considering this mirror between self and world,

Like how compassionate are we being with ourselves on this journey and in this,

You know,

Absolutely wild time in the world?

So we're always kind of looking at this both ends that we're like,

OK,

This is a skill or a capacity that I need to develop.

And then I need to actually look at how can I expand it out?

You know,

Can I live this in my own body?

Can I live this in my own community?

Can I live this with people I don't agree with?

And how can I take it from there?

Yes,

That that full embodiment of it,

Yes,

That is crucial.

And.

I also really think it's important to bring up here as well.

We cannot forget humor and joy and play.

Yes,

Oh,

My gosh,

OK,

I love this,

OK,

Because I'm actually a very serious person by nature and I always have been and I train myself to look for beauty.

And to look for the good,

Because I think we're not conditioned to do that in our world.

But also,

Like sometimes I'm a little bit like,

You know,

Pessimistic or like naturally cynical,

Like there's a part of my personality that leans that way.

And to actually challenge that and to step myself out of it,

Because most of the time it doesn't lead anywhere good,

Is this,

You know,

Experience of play and joy.

And let's have fun because,

You know what,

We're human.

And again,

We're here for this beautiful,

One wild and precious life that we have.

And how are we going to use it?

We cannot suffer enough to change the world.

So like we have to be infusing our activism,

Our change making with beauty,

With joy,

With life,

With energy.

So that is something that we actually all want to be a part of.

So it's something that actually gives us energy.

So it's something that lights us up.

Exactly.

And I also want to say,

And you touched on this,

Everything we're talking about requires a deep level of internal healing and deconditioning and unlearning.

So also remembering that all of our healing journeys are a vital component of remaking the world for the better.

Like part of what's ours to do at this time is that healing and deconditioning and unlearning work.

It is absolutely right.

I think,

You know,

Sometimes the inner work can seem a bit superfluous and a little bit like,

Oh,

That's a nice thing to do,

But like the world is burning,

So we need to act there first.

You know,

One of the reasons we're at the beginning of this conversation when we talked about the root causes of the polycrisis,

And I went first to mindsets and beliefs,

Is because underneath every system of harm is a mindset and a belief.

Fundamentally,

If you keep tracing it back,

You get back to a belief,

You get back to a value system,

You get back to a mindset,

A way of seeing the world.

And so all of these mindsets,

All of these stories,

All of these systems live within us.

And so we have to be doing this inner work in order to actually transform them,

Because if we don't,

I think we will recreate them.

Even if they look a bit different,

We'll be unconscious,

But we'll make the same thing again because that's all we know,

Because that's the only way we're still operating in the world.

And so the inner work is really a way that is allowing us to show up differently,

That's allowing us to kind of see that change from a different place.

And it's not to be done separately to the external work,

Right?

It's not an either or,

It's a both and.

But it is a really important piece in this time.

I totally agree,

Laura,

And I love your perspective so much,

And I think it's so important.

So I'm just really glad we're having this conversation today.

And,

You know,

When faced with a world in chaos and crisis and stuck in a seemingly endless cycle of violence and destruction.

It's really easy,

Laura,

To fall into overwhelm and despair and depression and pessimism,

Like you mentioned,

And anxiety and worry and grief and rage and also apathy and helplessness and hopelessness and all of the feelings.

That is so easy to do.

I see that so pervasive right now,

Right,

In our world.

But to quote you,

Laura.

Everything,

Everywhere,

All at once may describe the problem,

But it doesn't work as a strategy.

It really doesn't.

It sounds so obvious when we say that,

Right?

Oh,

Well,

No,

Of course that's not strategic.

And yet that's so often how we operate,

You know,

Because when we're kind of taking everything in all at once and we're trying to do all of the things and respond to every fire all at once,

You know,

Our attention is scattered.

Our impact is scattered.

Our ability to be creative,

To collaborate,

To think deeply about the challenge that we're facing is scattered.

And so we have to be able to like,

This is when we come back to the capacities we were talking about,

About like pausing,

Deep listening,

You know,

The willingness to be wrong and to have like a moment there to like breathe,

Because then we can actually choose to go forward intentionally,

Right?

We can look at what is ours to do in this time.

We can look at,

Okay,

Where am I called to act?

Where is in my sphere of influence and power right now as well?

Because we don't have sphere of influence and power over every single crisis at every single time in the world.

And some of us will call to us more than others.

There is no right or wrong here.

Every single one of us needs to find the space that calls us,

You know,

And then we follow forward into there.

Then we look at the skills that we can be building,

The wisdom we can be developing and we can move forward.

But if we are just trying to do everything all at once,

There's a reason,

You know,

What's the term?

Is it flood the system?

Or like flood the gates?

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Something like that,

Yeah.

You know,

It's a very actually strategic thing that's done by in politics,

You know,

Within certain actors within this world to keep people scattered and busy in order so that people can't effectively organize.

People can't effectively create a response.

And so it's a really important thing both internally and actually strategically to be able to take the space to do this.

Yes.

So let's talk strategy.

Laura,

Let's talk strategy.

You share a lot about taking wise action.

Can you please share with us like what is wise action to you?

What do you mean when you say that?

What are the pillars of wise action and how can we take wise action moving forward?

So I think wise action is about making choices that are ethical,

That are aligned with our values and that are attuned to the complexities of the moment.

It's not about rushing to everything exactly as we're saying.

It's not about reacting to every single thing.

It's about discerning what action is needed and whether action is needed at all by us in this exact moment in this place and time.

And so the first way we do this when we're looking at this idea of wise action is to consider what is influencing our decisions,

What is impacting our view of the world.

Right.

We come back to those kind of stories that shape us,

The cultural and social conditionings of like,

This is just the way things are or urgency and crisis thinking.

Like I have to do something like now,

Like I just can't wait.

It has to immediately,

We have that fight or flight response happening in our bodies.

We can always sense it.

Okay.

If you're feeling that kind of amped up,

Like kind of like jazzy energy that's happening,

We can look at,

Okay,

What happens if we actually calm down?

Is that thought,

Is that decision still there?

If it's not,

That's probably not wise action.

You know,

We can look at the fear based narratives that we're carrying,

Right?

The,

What if I fail?

What if it all goes wrong?

So like,

These are all just understanding what's shaping our worldview.

If we have not done any sort of inquiry to understand what is shaping our worldview,

It will be very difficult to move forward into wise action because we don't have the full picture.

I would say that second,

We ask what it is that we actually want in the world.

I think this isn't actually a question we ask enough,

Right?

We are very good at knowing what we're against.

We're very good at resistance.

We're very good at pointing out the problem at saying,

Yeah,

This is exactly what I don't want.

We're very,

Very bad at saying,

This is what I want.

We see dystopias everywhere,

Right?

You can see movies,

TV shows,

Games that are very,

Very good at showing the end of the world,

Nightmare scenarios,

The last thing you want to encounter.

It's actually very bizarre that that's like our primary form of entertainment,

Like when you think about it.

And we're also,

We're not very good at say,

We're a bit better,

But like still not very good at selling like utopias.

Like actually what if like the world was much better and amazing,

But then there's like a third space of just,

Hey,

What's like a realistic utopia?

Like something that we could actually be like,

Yeah,

This is what the world could be,

The world could be so much better than it is,

We don't tell those stories.

And most of us can't,

Even when we think about it,

Identify what those things might look like,

At least beyond the first few things,

But what would it look like if everybody had a safe and stable basic income and so they could choose work that was meaningful to them and purposeful,

You know,

What if we had communities that were built on safety and communication and trust and knowing your neighbors,

What would be different there?

You know,

What if we had an environment in which healthy food was accessible,

You know,

And could be enjoyed by many,

Many different people where we had,

You know,

Perhaps amazing forms of transport,

Where we had conflict reconciliation taught in schools.

So we grew up learning how to deal with conflict.

Can we even imagine a world like this?

Right.

So what is it that we want?

What is it we want in response to what is happening?

What is it that we want with our long-term vision?

And then I think third,

And,

You know,

When we're talking about wise action is because we start to obviously take some action from that place,

And this sometimes I think is the most challenging part is we also need to be able to make peaceful choices,

Right?

Because sometimes when we act,

Things don't turn out the way we want.

Sometimes there is uncertainty and loss and grief and heartbreak and disappointment and,

You know,

Things that we can internalize as mistakes.

So how do we instead practice self-compassion and forgiveness and recognize that we're all making the best decisions that we know how at any given time?

So it's these three pieces,

Know your worldview,

Know what is influencing your choices.

Okay.

We're not reacting here.

We're pausing.

We're discerning.

Second,

We're asking what it is that we actually want in any given moment,

Whether that's about the world,

Whether that's like in this situation,

Whether that's in my job,

In my life,

What is it?

What do you want?

And then third,

Going forward with the decision,

Can you make peace with it?

Can you practice self-compassion?

I think those are so foundational.

I love this,

Laura,

Because I think this perspective and the strategy of wise action helps us move forward past the inaction and hopelessness that we can feel when we look at everything everywhere all at once,

Right?

And it helps us move forward with self-trust and more courage and wisdom,

Right?

And I think a big thing that you said,

In alignment with our values,

Which in and of itself is forging a new and different path,

Right?

And building a new way of being just by living and acting from that place of living in alignment with our values.

And it's also all about making decisions from that grounded,

Authentic and intuitive place and freeing ourselves as well from like the quote unquote shoulds,

Right?

Like what we should do and living in alignment with our values.

I just,

I love that so much.

And I think it's a really important and effective strategy to keep in mind right now at this time.

It is,

You know,

And I think when we're talking about self-trust,

Right?

This idea of like self-compassion is also foundational there because if we are the first person to turn against ourselves,

We're not going to trust ourselves,

Right?

And it's going to be really hard for us to create new things,

To create new systems,

To prototype new things,

To go forward and put our voice out there and our experiences out there.

If again,

We're going to turn against ourselves and be mean to ourselves and berate ourselves,

You know,

We're not going to have that trust there.

So like the self-compassion piece,

Like it is so important in how we treat ourselves in order for us to actually be effective change makers.

Otherwise,

We're just going to end up like,

You know,

Internally violent towards ourselves.

Again,

Mimicking the systems that shape our world,

Mimicking the world as it is.

Or we'll end up holding ourselves back because we're afraid of that response.

Yes,

It's so true.

It's such a good point.

And I think as part of our strategy as well,

Laura,

For tackling the polycrisis and effective change making.

I've seen you share a lot about systems thinking and radical imagination as important skills that are needed at this time.

You mentioned that we got a skill up,

Right?

So I know I've seen you talk about systems thinking and radical imagination.

Can you tell us about those two skills?

Yeah,

So I'll say first,

There are many skills that we need for this time,

Right?

We need complexity thinking.

We need imagination as we're talking about.

We need the ability to deal with conflict.

We need nonviolence.

There are so many skills that we need.

But systems thinking is one of them.

Basically,

Our world is made by systems.

OK,

And systems thinking sometimes seems really heady and overwhelming and really academic and like,

Oh,

My gosh,

Like I can't understand these things.

It really is actually very intuitive,

Like in many ways for many of us.

Our entire body is a system,

Right?

We're made of systems.

It's many different parts that come together to make us.

We have,

You know,

Our circulatory system.

We have our nervous system.

We have,

You know,

Our respiratory system.

You know,

We're not just our respiratory system.

That's just one component of us.

But when all of these things come together,

We become who we are.

You know,

We become Laura,

We become Mali,

We become however we are.

And so we also have grown up or we are descendants of humans that lived for hundreds of thousands of years in the natural world,

Intuiting systems,

Having vast and deep understanding of natural systems,

Right?

So whether we're talking about,

You know,

The sun and the moon or the water systems or the weather patterns or whatever it is,

Right,

We have come to understand that,

And often we communicated the way those systems work through stories,

You know,

Through narrative.

But it is a skill that we all have to be able to think this way.

And it's important because if we want to actually go to the root of a problem,

We need to be thinking about it from a systems perspective.

You know,

If we are just like trying to deal with this person over there,

Like this person must be the problem.

If we could just get rid of this person in politics,

Like,

It's not going to happen,

Like,

Because as we know,

When that person goes,

There'll be someone else,

Because perhaps again,

Either the system is maybe the political system is not fundamentally designed well for our participation and for our engagement,

Or perhaps,

You know,

It's allowing too much dark money and too much disinformation into the system,

Which is kind of poisoning what's happening.

Perhaps we haven't dealt with the mindset that created those policies and that person in the first place,

Right?

That said,

It's an us versus them world and,

You know,

It's doggy dog and survival of the fittest.

And so we have to be looking at,

Ah,

Okay,

Well like,

So there's this loneliness epidemic,

Right?

How do we actually feed that into all of everything else that's happening right now?

Is that a mental health crisis?

How does it intersect with mental health system?

How does it intersect with our communities?

How does it intersect with our jobs,

With our economic system?

If we start to look at our economic system,

Oh,

We're all just like caught in these kinds of cycles of having to do more and consume more and move faster and rush faster and,

And then maybe that's leading to that,

Right?

So there's never one thing.

So this is all just about learning to see the parts,

Learning to see the players,

Learning to see the way they connect and relate to one another,

And to have this deeper understanding.

Because again,

Then when we see the system,

We can peel back to understand where are we going to actually make change.

Sometimes an example I give here,

Because this can still sound heady,

Is if we are thinking about,

Let's say,

Hypothetically,

We'll give like one that is kind of simple.

Let's say a bird has washed up on a beach and it's full of plastic,

Right?

That bird,

We can look at,

Well,

We know we want to deal with then the plastic crisis.

What do we want to do with this?

You know,

A surface solution might be,

Ah,

Individual solutions.

Let's,

You know,

Ban plastic straws.

Let's get a keep cup.

Let's get a renewable,

Or sorry,

What's it,

Carry bag that we can bring.

These things aren't going to really probably make enough of a dent in the system because we're treating it,

We're not dealing with the system.

We're just dealing with like the isolated event.

Maybe we're doing a beach cleanup.

We're pulling all the like plastic off the beach in that moment.

Maybe we can take it a bit deeper then,

Right?

We recognize,

Oh,

Okay,

This is part of a larger plastic problem that we have.

Maybe I'm going to create some policies around this.

Maybe we're going to work with government.

Maybe we're going to start to look at,

You know,

We can make the companies more responsible for what they're going to do with the plastic that they develop.

You know,

Maybe we're taking this like nationwide or this statewide ban of the material.

And then we can start to take it even deeper when we're looking from a systemic perspective.

Oh,

What made us use this plastic in the very first place?

You know,

Who's benefiting from this?

Where is our mindset and the stories that say that somehow we're not that connected to this bird and it doesn't really matter,

Or we're not that connected to the earth in this other place where we're extracting this.

So the importance of like thinking systemically is really about just being able to trace things backwards,

Find the root cause and work with the most impactful space.

Now,

I do know you also said imagination and I genuinely,

The easiest way to say this is I just think imagination is one of the greatest tools that we have.

We undervalue it completely.

Like we are creative beings.

As children,

We all play.

We all imagine things.

We all create stories.

We all create little dramas and plays and narratives and we make things up and we don't think anything of it.

But then when we grow up,

We get serious and we say,

That's just make-believe.

We need to be imagining new worlds in this time.

As we said,

We can very clearly say a dystopia.

We can kind of think of utopias,

But that's a lot harder.

But we're then really bad at like actually describing realistic utopias.

And we need our imagination to do that.

Imagination is a muscle and it is a skill.

So we need to be developing this in order for us to create new solutions and to go forward.

Wow,

Laura,

Thank you.

I totally agree with everything that you said.

I love that answer and I'm glad you brought this point up and I want to drive it home regarding systems thinking and why it's so important right now because it's so easy to fall into the trap of blaming,

Into the trap of blaming one person in power or one government for all of the problems,

Right?

I'm seeing that narrative so much right now,

But really they are products of the system,

Right?

And that's why we need systems thinking.

We need to go deeper.

We need to understand the root and we need to understand how everything is connected through time in order to be effective change makers.

Absolutely,

Right?

That's the thing.

If it's like,

Oh,

If we just beat this one person,

If we just defeat this one policy,

If we just do this one thing,

It's never that effective,

Right?

We have to be working from a deeper lens.

You have to be understanding the world views,

The stories,

The systems,

Okay,

That have made this,

You know,

Even when you're talking within politics,

Like as soon as you narrow it down to like one person,

You are missing the wider arena and system that it is a part of.

Then you're missing certainly the narratives of the nation that helped shape that system and what feeds into it and the media landscape and the economic situation,

You know,

All these pieces intersect.

And so we have to like start to think about them in that way.

Yes,

I think it's crucial.

And I'll just say,

Too,

With the radical imagination that you brought up,

Which I love so much,

It's just so important.

And,

You know,

We talk about imagination and dreaming about the future and best case scenarios a lot on this podcast.

It's like a tenant of this podcast.

And I love the way you talk about it,

Laura.

We really have to break free.

Of the limiting belief.

That this is just the way it is.

In order to be effective changemakers and radical imagination is the way.

It really is.

Our world is shaped by imagination.

Our world is made by imagination.

Everything that we are encountering,

The desk,

The computer,

The iPhone,

The chair that we're all sitting in right now was made because somebody once imagined it.

That's the thing.

Imagination comes first for everything.

We cannot create something that we don't first imagine.

And so when we are only imagining dystopia and we're only imagining the worst case scenario,

And we're only seeing the bad.

It's very,

Very difficult for us to create these other opportunities that are there.

It's very difficult for us to see the leverage points that we could access.

It's very difficult for us to see the creative places that we could be intervening,

The actions that we could be creating.

So we need this ability to like really imagine something new.

Otherwise,

Again,

We'll end up recreating the same patterns that we see.

Exactly.

And this is where as well,

Play and humor and joy comes in again,

Right?

Because in order to reconnect with our imaginative powers,

We need to reconnect with our inner child and childlike selves.

We need to play and experiment and come at these problems with intuition and curiosity and creativity and a beginner's mind,

Right?

And like a childlike mind almost and move past our limiting beliefs.

This is not the way that it always will be.

This is the way it is now.

That does not mean it is the way it will be in the future.

And it's not the way it will be in the future.

The world inherently is always changing.

Like sometimes we completely forget that,

But we also forget the very real changes that have happened over the years,

Whether it's the civil rights movement,

Whether it is the gay rights movement,

Whether it's feminism and the suffragette movement,

You know,

There have been many,

Many different successful movements that created change over the years.

And the world is always evolving.

The world is not the same as it was a hundred years ago,

500 years ago,

A thousand years ago,

It's radically different in all of them.

So the question is,

How do we want it to change,

Right?

This is not just inevitable.

We get to choose how we want our world to be.

So let's choose it and choose again.

Exactly.

And,

You know,

Laura,

Another limiting belief that I want to bring up because I think it's important and I think it's a limiting belief that's holding us back from effective changemaking is this need for certainty and this fear of the unknown.

So in your view,

How is it best to navigate this limiting belief in the uncertainty and unknown that are inherent in changemaking,

Right?

And remaking the world?

How do you recommend we navigate that?

So I think,

You know,

In many ways,

It's not so much that uncertainty is a limiting belief,

But that it's almost a reality,

Right?

But we almost,

We don't like to acknowledge that,

That the world is uncertain.

It is,

It is deeply uncertain.

I think sometimes the way we describe it as more and more uncertain just means it's actually just more and more like volatile.

It's more,

It carries more and more risk of violence,

Of harm,

Of threat,

You know,

Of things that are like terrifying to us that we don't want to experience.

More and more suffering,

More and more pain.

And I think the only way that we can respond to what is a reality in the world,

Okay,

Because we can't change the uncertainty.

The uncertainty is a given.

We can't guarantee an outcome.

We can't know that something will happen before it does,

Is surrender.

You know,

I think there is an element of actually just genuinely surrendering and accepting that we live in a deeply conflicted,

A deeply uncertain,

A deeply increasingly unstable world and we can't control everything,

Right?

We can't have an answer to every situation.

We can't guarantee every single action that we want to guarantee.

What we can do is surrender to the uncertainty that we're facing and then choose how we want to show up from that place and surrender is like the antidote to the anxiety that we sometimes feel there because like we get really kind of amped up or scared or anxious about everything that is happening and it's out of our control,

Like there's nuance here,

Okay,

Because some things are within our control and exactly as I'm just saying a few moments ago,

The world is ours to be reshaped.

It's ours to make,

Right?

We have far more agency than we give ourselves credit for and we are one person within an eight billion person world,

You know,

We are in a world that is millions of years old,

Not everything is down to us and so we need to like surrender what we can while claiming the agency in those other parts where we sometimes shun it and it's this kind of back and forth symbiotic relationship between the two.

Yeah,

Thank you.

I think that perspective is really helpful and I just want to read something you've written again.

You said,

What if we reframed living with uncertainty to navigating mystery?

There's more energy in that phrase.

There's a hum of imaginative voltage and you point out,

Is our life not a mystery school,

A seat of earthly instruction?

Beautiful.

Thank you.

I actually,

I'm wondering,

Did I write that or was I quoting somebody there?

It's a good question.

It's very beautifully written.

So thank you.

But it is like this idea of like uncertainty and mystery,

Right?

That they go hand in hand.

We can't have mystery without uncertainty.

We just can't,

We can't,

Otherwise it's not a mystery.

There's no magic there.

And also I think,

You know,

When we're talking about uncertainty,

There is also beauty in that.

You know,

I often define hope as the willingness to live in a story that is not yet complete.

Right?

There's so often again,

We've,

We've written the ending to the story in our head.

And when we're saying things are hopeless,

What's the point?

You know,

Why bother?

You know,

We're already just saying the story's done.

It's not done.

We're still here.

We're still writing it every day.

And so we hope is the willingness to live in a story that is not yet complete.

But for a story to not yet be complete,

There has to be uncertainty.

So it's not always a bad thing.

It can mean possibility.

It can mean good things.

It can mean beauty.

It just means that we don't know what's next.

And can we accept that and move forward?

Exactly.

And I think one thing I've learned in my life that has helped me with navigating this uncertainty and fear of the unknown is,

Is action,

Is baby steps,

Because what I've really genuinely found is momentum and clarity only come through action,

Through taking baby steps.

And it's like this dance of,

Of action and then redirection.

And then you gain clarity and you gain wisdom and then you move here and it's,

It's a dance.

And that,

That really is life.

Remembering that.

Not letting it result in,

In,

In action,

Right?

We need to move forward.

We need to take baby steps and the clarity that we need in that moment will come for the next thing.

It's like the staircase is being built as we walk.

And,

You know,

It reminds me of that famous Rumi quote,

As you start to walk on the way,

The way appears.

I love that quote,

Right?

But it's so true,

Like a hundred percent,

Like we need to be taking action.

If we are waiting for clarity and for certainty,

It's not going to come through just waiting,

Right?

We learn through doing,

We gain experience through doing,

We gain perspective,

We gain wisdom,

We gain a lesson,

You know,

We move further along that path that we're trying to create.

We make that path by walking.

And so we move towards it.

And with each moment we encounter something new.

There's pausing,

But it's not about waiting for the perfect moment.

Exactly.

Thank you for that distinction.

Right.

If we need to pause,

We need to take the time and space,

But moving forward anyway.

So Laura,

Let's dive into finding what's ours to do at this time,

Which I know is an important goal of your work and it's an important part of the strategy and effective and meaningful change-making.

So how do you recommend we go about finding what's ours to do at this time?

What tips and tools can you share with us to help us figure that out?

So I think first,

What I would say is that we all have something that is ours to do in this time,

Genuinely.

Like I say that we all have callings.

I've said this at the beginning,

Those little voices,

Those little things within us,

Those little intuitive things,

Those little desires and dreams,

They are callings,

Right?

So I think it is really important that we honor that and that it's going to be different for each and every single one of us and that some of us will be quite conditioned out of listening to our callings.

We'll have been told that there's this right way and that what we're supposed to do,

You know,

For some of us,

Our callings are also not necessarily linked to our job or to our profession,

Right?

Our vocation,

Like our life's kind of calling isn't always what we're paid to do.

Sometimes it's separate.

Our callings will also change.

They are not static.

They're not the same throughout our life.

Okay.

They're always in flow.

They're always dynamic.

And so we need to know how to listen for when they change.

What I would say though,

If we're trying to figure out then what is ours to do in this time is a few things.

I would say one,

Look at the things that really,

You know,

Trouble us in the world.

The things that like break us a little bit on the inside,

The things that like hurt when we encounter them,

That is something meaningful to us.

There is something there that within you is saying,

This shouldn't be this way.

Now,

I also think we can look to where our gifts are.

Those things that light us up,

Those things that make us feel alive and energetic,

You know,

That give us energy that we go,

Yeah,

Oh my God,

I feel so much better when I do that.

Somewhere in the middle of those two,

I think is a little sweet spot a lot of the time that we can start to find what is ours to do.

It's not only in the things that bring us pain,

But it's also not only in the things that kind of make us feel good.

There is this kind of symbiotic space in the middle where we're like,

Ah,

The thing that really matters to me with the thing that makes me kind of feel alive,

That is where we work.

I also think when we're thinking about this topic,

Don't discount the small.

I think sometimes we think our callings are supposed to be these big,

Grand gestures that are like massive and world-changing,

But small actions matter,

Right?

It really does.

You know,

We live in this world where,

Again,

We're looking at this mirror between the large and the small,

The world and the self.

The small is really,

Really important.

It's the place where we can act.

It's the place that we can touch.

It's the things that we can see.

And so we don't need to overcomplicate this.

And also,

You know,

As we've said,

Don't buy into the story that this is just the way the world is,

Because that is a great disconnect there from any intuition that we have,

Because we've discounted anything within us that is saying something different.

And so when we can like let go of that story and start to go,

Ah,

But there is this thing in me that says it should be different.

It can be different.

Okay,

Great.

How?

Why?

Why do you think that?

Where does it come from?

Right?

What was that first spark there?

What hurts when you encounter it?

Oh,

What makes you feel good?

Okay,

What's the vision that you have?

What's that idea that keeps boiling up behind you?

You know,

When it comes to you in the shower or at 3 a.

M.

Let's try it.

Let's test it.

See what happens.

Great.

Further along.

Let's try it again.

Try another step.

So it's this journey that we're on,

Always listening,

Always reflecting,

But always going within.

I love that,

Laura.

And I think the point that I want to drive home that you mentioned is everyone is important and every role is important,

Right?

Everyone is needed.

Absolutely.

So this is the thing.

There is no one right way.

There is no magic button.

There is no perfect thing that you can do.

We need farmers.

We need activists.

We need politicians.

We need accountants.

We need teachers.

We need nurses,

Right?

We need midwives.

We need absolutely every role that there is,

Right?

There is no perfect thing to be doing.

So wherever it is that you work,

You can find your callings.

You can find your thing that you are meant to touch.

Wherever it is you are in the world,

You can find the thing that matters to you.

Exactly,

And everyone has something unique to contribute their own niche that is a crucial part of the larger whole,

Right?

And I also want to reiterate,

Everyone can't do everything.

And that's why finding and committing to what's yours is so important.

Yeah,

Well,

This is the thing.

When we're trying to do everything,

We'll feel that sense of overwhelm,

That sense of exhaustion,

That sense of ineffective strategy,

That sense of burnout,

Like we're just constantly fighting fires with fire,

Like is it ever going to end?

And it's like,

No,

OK,

Well,

We need to be able to resource ourselves for this journey.

We need to be able to make sure that we,

You know,

Have this thing that we're like,

OK,

I've chosen to work here and this might be big.

I'm not against big things or it might intersect with lots of other things.

It might change throughout your lifetime,

But you know where your action is right now.

And so that way you're not feeling like,

Oh,

I'm not doing enough,

Right?

That voice we get,

Am I doing enough?

I could be doing more.

It's actually like,

No,

I'm doing enough,

I'm doing the work that matters to me,

I'm doing the work that is important.

So we have a much deeper space to work with.

I agree.

And I also want to reiterate,

Don't minimize your own contributions,

Right?

I think that's what you're getting to,

Because even if you're showing up in your life and in the world with more love and compassion and an open heart,

That in itself is huge.

For example,

That's an important contribution,

For example.

So let's not minimize our own roles and contributions because everyone is important and everyone is needed.

Absolutely.

It's amazing sometimes the way we gaslight ourselves to say that we should be like doing more,

That we just,

You know,

You yourself,

You're not enough as you are.

It's that scarcity mindset in all these other ways,

You know,

That mindset that says that you haven't done enough.

This all lays on your shoulders.

It doesn't.

You smiling at somebody,

You saying hello,

Like these things all matter.

When we're talking about this relationship and this kind of community building and this collaboration that we want to be experiencing,

It all starts in the very,

Very small micro details of our lives.

Exactly.

And actually along those lines,

I wanted to share like a really simple practice that's really helped me find this and reshape that mindset.

That might sound simple,

But it's super powerful that I wanted to share today.

And it's setting the intention each morning,

Right?

Because intention is powerful.

Intention helps our our mindset and belief.

Setting the intention each morning.

How can I be of service today?

How can I lead with love today?

How can I embody more love today?

And then being open as I move about my day.

But with that practice of taking the time each morning to pause and reflect and set that intention and focus,

I found it actually produces really profound results.

I think that's really beautiful.

I actually so love that because,

Again,

That's grounding down into our bodies the world that we want to experience.

The change we want to see isn't just out there.

It's not just like happening to us.

It's not just somewhere in the distance.

It doesn't just live somewhere else.

It actually lives in us,

Right?

We have to like seed it into existence.

So we're living it in our own bodies.

And that practice is really about creating that.

Exactly.

And Laura,

Are there any examples you can share with us of some ideas and projects that people you've worked with have had or created to kind of give us some inspiration?

Oh,

My gosh.

I mean,

So many people come and sometimes they want to write a book,

Right?

So there's that aspect of,

Oh,

You have something you want to say to the world,

Something that matters to you.

Let's get clear on what that is and how you want to communicate that and what that might actually look like and,

You know,

What all those pieces are.

Sometimes people want to drive a change in an organization,

Right?

So like they're working in their workplace and like they want to actually,

They know that it could be better.

Like there could be policies that are changed.

It could be relationships that are strengthened.

That could be the impact of the work they're doing in a different way.

How are they going to drive that change in that organization,

Particularly when they're not necessarily in like a senior leadership position?

How are they going to start to build those communities and those impacts within it and change it from within?

Some people come and they've had ideas of like creating songs of resistance or like choirs of resistance.

How are we going to go out and spread our voices and spread joy and like sing and share the things that matter to us?

There have been pop-up community events.

Okay.

So like how are we going to create,

Let's say like a,

Whether that's anything from like a pop-up poetry event or a book reading or anything through to like,

You know,

Perhaps like a clothes swap or a farmer's market.

How am I going to like actually have an idea or like a street festival and create it in my community?

There have been people who've done things with like creating blogs around like ethics and technology.

So like there's so many different things that we could be doing and there are so many different ideas that we all have.

All of these are different.

All of these are like,

You know,

We all have different things we want to accomplish with them.

But we're coming back to this place of,

Yeah,

What's that little thing within you that you want to create that you maybe have no idea where to begin or how,

Or like don't have the support to do it.

And you're worried if you tell somebody they're going to be like,

You're crazy.

Like,

Why would you do that?

Right.

No,

That's like,

Okay,

Let's see the idea.

Let's root it down.

Let's question it.

Let's play with it.

Let's mold it,

Like experiment with it.

And let's get it up and into the world because we need that.

We really need that in this time.

I love that so much.

You know,

It's a great reminder,

Too,

That there is more than one way to remake the world.

Right.

It's like this fabric of interwoven and interconnected threads that we are all co-weaving together.

Super beautiful.

And I also just want to say as well to everyone listening,

What's yours to do may also be focusing on yourself right now,

Right?

And your healing journey,

Because as we've said,

Healing our own wounds and shifting our own frequency and vibration and beliefs and mindset is part of the work and contributing to collective healing and healing the disconnection within yourself,

For example,

Is important work.

Healing our own internalized capitalism and burnout is important work.

Shifting our perspectives is important work.

Stopping the cycle of violence and othering and shaming and blaming all of this has a profound impact on the collective.

I just want to reiterate that.

And also,

I think it's important to say part of finding what's yours to do may also be,

You know,

Sharing your gifts,

Sharing your voice and perspective in whatever way that shows up.

Also,

It could be bringing more love and compassion into your life and relationships.

It's all needed.

Or if you're a parent,

I have to bring this up,

And you're approaching parenting with intention and humility and patience and awareness,

And you're consciously working on healing your own conditioning so as to not pass it on to your children.

I mean,

That may be part of what's yours to do.

And that is so important and so needed,

Right?

Or maybe you're a teacher or,

I don't know,

Like me,

An aunt,

Or,

You know,

Maybe you're helping children live more in alignment with who they really are instead of forcing them to fit into a box.

That may be part of what's yours to do,

And it's needed and important.

Or like you said,

Laura,

If you're creating art,

If you're creating beauty in the world,

If you're sharing poetry,

For example,

Or song,

It's all important and it's all contributing to a better world and it's all needed.

It's all needed,

Right?

Every piece matters.

Every thread of the tapestry and every piece of the puzzle,

It's all necessary.

Exactly.

And,

You know,

Laura and I can't tell you what's yours to do.

No one can tell you what's yours to do.

It's,

You know,

A feeling,

A desire,

A pull,

A whisper from your soul.

It's your intuition guiding you and then you listening.

And what I think Laura and I are here to do today is encourage you to listen and to create the space and pause to listen.

And then also encouraging you then to like take action and take steps from there.

Yeah.

To honor where you're at in your life,

Because the action is needed.

And like,

I'm so clear on that.

Like both of us are like so clear on that.

And the action needs to come from a place of strategy,

Right?

And intention and groundedness and not just reacting to every fire and fighting every fire.

And so we need to take that beat to be able to pause,

Take a breath,

To say,

OK,

What's mine?

Right.

What are the skills that I need to develop like tangibly?

What's the wisdom that I need to carry me through?

What is a lifetime of work?

Because let's be real,

Reshaping the world is it belongs to every generation.

It's part of things that will happen throughout time.

The work of justice is something that will happen throughout generations,

You know,

Before us and long after us.

And then,

You know,

Developing that community piece as well so that we're actually developing that self-trust,

We're sharing that vision,

We're holding it in and we're then starting to spread it to others so they can join us in this journey.

Absolutely.

And regarding community,

I also have found that in community,

It can also help you figure out what's yours to do,

Because being in a trusted and safe community is a beautiful space to talk it through and bounce ideas off each other.

And like beautiful things can grow when you're coming from a place not necessarily of individualization,

That's the right way to say it,

But from community.

Exactly.

Right.

We're relational beings here,

And especially when we're saying there's so many of the crisis that we're facing are spiritual and relational in nature,

Like fundamentally they are.

War and violence is a spiritual and relational problem.

Climate change is a spiritual and relational problem.

Economic injustice is a spiritual and relational problem.

It's how we set up our systems.

And so like there is spiritual and relational work to do in this.

And that is done in community.

Exactly.

Oh,

Well said.

I have full body chills.

And Laura,

I want to bring this up.

I think it's really important.

I didn't want this podcast to end today without bringing this up.

I want to ask you about nonviolence.

Because I know this is something you've studied and trained on extensively and thought a lot about,

And we've talked a lot today about living in alignment with our values and remaking the world from that place.

And I know for me,

One of my core values is harmlessness and nonviolence.

But we live in this very violent world,

And many of the systems in place today condition us to be violent,

To use the language of violence.

And I've seen you share how violence begets more violence until it is interrupted.

So can you share with us how we can disrupt this cycle of violence and build and remake a more nonviolent world?

I know that is a big question.

Right.

Such a big question.

I'm just wondering where to begin with that question.

Because it is also the question about time.

Right.

And I think it's the question that each and every one of us actually gets to answer.

You know,

Each and every one of us has a role in this.

It's not something that I think we can approach from this perspective of being an expert or top down or,

You know,

That there is this one right way.

I do think,

Though,

What we're talking about is essentially restitching our relational fabric.

You know,

Our relational fabric is frayed.

We increasingly distrust each other.

We don't trust our institutions.

We have increasing polarization.

Right.

And we are increasingly kind of fractured in our ability to communicate across lines of difference as well.

And so then you're also then,

With all of this,

Experiencing increasing levels of violence,

Of conflict,

You know,

And conflict is not inherently a bad thing.

Conflict and violence are not the same thing.

But we're often not very skilled in how to respond to conflict and how to respond to disagreement.

It can be a tool for deepening relationships.

It can be a wonderful tool for transformation as a catalyst.

But when we don't have the skills to work with it,

Then we can kind of default to those old patterns that we're all trained in,

Each and every single one of us.

And so I think one of the first things that we can do on a very personal level,

On a practical level,

Is start to consider how we're responding to disagreement and conflict in our own lives.

How are we responding to family members who challenge us?

They're one of the great places that we have an opportunity to work.

How are we responding to colleagues who perhaps drive us up the wall or with whom we profoundly disagree?

Or maybe there's sometimes internal politics in an organisation.

And is our response to choose one of violence?

Right.

And violence here has many layers,

Right?

We're not always talking physical.

We're talking verbal violence.

We're talking mental violence,

Energetic violence.

You know,

This level,

Sometimes we treat ourselves incredibly violently with the language that we speak to ourselves with that we'd never use for other people.

So we're starting to say,

OK,

Well,

Is the energy with which I'm responding to this one that is reflective of violence?

Right.

Is it one that's reflective of harm?

And then what would it look like to start to actually challenge that from within?

Can I get curious?

Can I practise curiosity about where this person might be coming from,

Even if I disagree with them?

You know,

Maybe we have this colleague who keeps saying this thing that drives us nuts and we're like,

Oh,

My God,

How can I get curious?

Why do they think that way?

Why do they say that?

Why do they insist on that?

OK,

Can I sit with what is uncomfortable within me as I sit with that curiosity?

OK,

Because often then we get that little like rising of tension within us that wants to react,

That wants to go,

Ah,

No,

But it's wrong.

Can we step back from that like binary?

Just for just for a moment,

Right,

We don't have to agree,

You know,

But can we sit with just understanding?

And then can I start to like from that place,

Start to communicate?

You know,

I was at this event the other day at St.

Ethelberg's,

Which is a peace and reconciliation centre here in London,

And they were talking about the two different voices we can use.

You know,

The voices of an activist is a voice in which we're persuading others,

Right?

We're trying to convince them that it's the right way,

That there's this other alternative.

And it's a really important and necessary voice,

Right?

It has a place.

But there's also the voice of reconciliation.

And that is one of peace building.

And that's one of seeking to understand,

Of seeking to build a bridge.

And that is not the same voice because you can both stay on these opposite ends of disagreements.

But it's one in which the voice actually then has a space to communicate.

Because if we aren't creating that kind of space to rebuild our relational fabric,

To restitch it,

To kind of start to come together,

To start to build that very sense of trust again,

Right?

I don't have to like you,

But,

You know,

It's OK.

I'm here and I can show up and I'm not going to otherise you.

I'm not going to dehumanise you.

Then we can start to move forward.

But this is such a practice.

And so we start with the small.

We start in ourselves,

In our own bodies,

Our own lives.

We start in our communities and we ripple that outward from there.

Hmm.

Laura,

I love that answer so much.

And it is a practice and it is an unlearning and a relearning,

Right?

Because we've been conditioned from the current systems and the current culture to to accept and to continue the cycle of violence.

And I also just want to say back to that limiting belief of this is just the way it is related to nonviolence.

I actually have come to reject the idea that humans are inherently violent.

I don't think that's true.

I think it's learned and conditioned.

And I think it's from our trauma and our wounding over time,

All the things.

But I don't actually believe that we are inherently violent.

I actually think our core is love.

And so really peeling back the layers to come to come back to that.

Of love and,

You know,

And community and relation,

Like you said,

And,

You know,

It really reminds me of the Gandhi quote,

Be the change you want to see in the world.

So if we want less violence,

We need to embody nonviolence in our lives.

And I think that's the point you're trying to make,

Laura.

And I think it's so important.

And,

You know,

I also just want to say,

Since I am as well,

Very,

Very spiritual to bring in that perspective.

And I've seen many people share about this.

And it's something I truly,

Truly believe.

But the energy and frequency and vibration of nonviolence and harmlessness is actually infinitely more powerful and world shifting than that of violence.

It's similar to the concept that love is the most powerful force in the world.

Well,

It's also more disruptive,

Right?

Like violence can't do anything other than create more violence.

It's not actually transforming anything.

You know,

It becomes a system of what can be more violent to stop the other violence.

And,

You know,

I agree,

Violence is not something we inherently choose.

It's something we turn to when we have not learned any other skill or capacity or way of being to deal with what we're feeling and experiencing in that moment.

Right.

And I say that as somebody who,

Throughout my adolescence,

I had a huge amount of pain and rage inside of me that I only really knew how to choose violence with.

And so that was the only thing I could do because I didn't have anything else there.

But when we can actually create that space then to work within ourselves,

Right,

And this is why I'm saying about pausing,

Listening,

You know,

Sitting with the uncomfortability,

Starting with these really small conversations,

Because if we can't do that without having some level of internal reaction within us that's going,

Oh my God,

No,

This is like really uncomfortable.

I can't be here.

Right.

Then we're not going to actually be able to like embody nonviolence in the face of violence.

And embodying nonviolence,

Right,

In the face of violence,

Which doesn't mean passiveness,

Right?

We're not talking about pacifism here.

We're not talking about complete inaction.

We're not talking about this wishy-washy thing.

I think nonviolence interrupts harm,

Right?

There's,

There'll be great debates that we could have.

Maybe this is another future podcast around what is violence and what is nonviolence,

Right?

Because it's up for many people have different perspectives on this,

But we get to choose.

And so,

But can we show up with an energy of love,

With an energy of belonging,

With an energy that is actually going to transform the violence that is happening?

And that is such a practice.

I don't think it's a practice of,

Of lifetimes from the world that we have been born into that says violence is the only way.

I totally agree,

Laura,

And I just love you so much.

And I just want to ask you,

Laura,

For those listening that might still be questioning,

What would you say to someone that thinks they can't or don't make a difference,

That what they do doesn't matter?

What would you say to someone that questions whether,

You know,

Small or micro actions make a difference,

Whether they can contribute or have any impact?

So I'd say two things.

I would say one,

How do you benefit from that story?

Like,

What,

How does it serve you?

Because it possibly does actually,

And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's no judgment with this question,

But like,

You know,

How does that story of being powerless actually benefit you?

What do you get from it?

Is it a sense of safety?

Is it a sense of like protection?

Is it a sense of maybe superiority?

I have no idea,

But like,

How is it serving you?

Because on some level that belief is there for a reason.

And I also think too,

They're right on the one hand that individual solutions to massive systemic problems is not enough.

Right.

And I think that that almost is a kind of what is being highlighted and felt by a lot of people that,

Well,

Actually this action doesn't matter and it doesn't mean anything.

And there's a lot of truth that,

You know,

We have tried to fix big systemic problems with individual solutions,

Right?

How can I exactly,

As we use that example before,

Like fix like the massive,

Massive like plastic pollution by like recycling my like cardboard container over here.

It doesn't work.

But also we are the system,

Right?

The system lives in us.

Okay.

The system is not outside of us.

It is in our mindsets.

It is in our values.

It is in our beliefs.

It is in the energy with which we show up in the world.

You know,

These systems live in our bodies.

I think they live in our nervous systems.

Many of them,

Particularly when we're talking about cultural systems,

Particularly when we're talking about systems of harm and systems of oppression,

Certainly white supremacy,

Patriarchy,

These things live in our bodies.

They live in us.

And so we're not looking at this idea of individual solutions.

Instead,

We're looking at how we unlearning it and unmaking it to create the conditions for something new.

One other thing I would add here,

In addition to this kind of,

How do you benefit from this story of powerlessness is who else benefits?

You know,

As we were saying this,

I was just thinking like systems benefit from us believing that we're powerless and that we can't change them.

Right.

If you,

If you think that what's the point of this action or who am I to do something,

You don't take action.

You don't do anything.

And this is status quo stays exactly as it is.

Right.

It is by design.

That story is not come out of nowhere.

It's not necessarily truth just because we think something doesn't make it true,

But instead it's a story that's been planted and I feed back into the system and keeps it in place.

Okay.

So question it,

Question ourselves,

Question our assumptions,

Lean forward,

Be the change,

Unlearn inside out and go from there.

Laura,

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here.

Again,

For a third time.

Thank you for sharing so much wisdom with us.

Thank you for all that you're doing in the world.

You are truly a light,

My friend.

Thank you so much.

I love you,

Mally.

I love your show.

Like,

I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be on here and to speak and thank you so much.

I have one final question for you,

Laura,

And this is one I've actually asked you before,

But I'm so curious to see how your answer has evolved since I last asked you this question two years ago.

What is your vision for the future of humanity and the earth?

I want a world in which we're equipped to deal with conflict and disagreement.

You know,

Coming back to what we're just talking about,

These are skills.

These are not things that we can't learn.

These are things that we can be teaching in schools,

That we can be instituting in workplaces,

In our community settings,

In our justice systems.

You know,

These are things that we can be doing in our lives.

So I want that.

I also want a world in which,

Because we have the skills to deal with conflict,

That we are far more imaginative and that we are far more creative and that we're willing to try new things,

Right?

Just bring us together in community and create the initiatives and the stories and the settings that we want to experience.

So I think that's my vision for the world.

So there you have it.

I hope you see now.

You matter.

Your contributions matter.

Your love matters.

Your healing matters.

We are walking forward into the unknown together.

We are co-creating a new world together and it can be beautiful if we choose to make it beautiful.

I'll end today with a quote from Laura.

If our crises run deeper than the surface,

Then each and every one of us also has a role to play in the world's remaking because each and every one of us has something to offer,

Something unique,

Something beautiful.

Each and every one of us has callings and a sacred vocation,

A thread for the fabric that only we can stitch.

So the question is,

What's yours?

What thread are you uniquely positioned to contribute to in the remaking of our world?

We need all of us committed to transforming the foundations of our shared world.

Wherever you are,

There lies the work.