10. You Gotta Have Friends

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1:04:05

10. You Gotta Have Friends

by Spiritually Hungry Podcast

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Friendship is not just the essence of spirituality, it IS spirituality. Find out why friendship and becoming a better friend is synonymous with our spiritual work as Monica and Michael Berg discuss the profound nature of friendship.

Friendship Emotional Support History Relationships Non Judgment Acceptance Love Friendship Impact Spiritual Growth Relationship Dynamics Spirits

Meet your Teacher

Spiritually Hungry Podcast

New York State, USA

Meet your Teacher

Spiritually Hungry Podcast

New York State, USA

Transcript

The question of friendship needs to be the uppermost question. Am I a good friend? Do I have good friends? Really friendship is the most important aspect of any relationship. This isn't just about, You know, You want to go through life and you want to have somebody to share it with or you want to have friends to have fun with and so on and so forth. All those might be important but on a deep soul spiritual level, This is the most important purpose for which our soul came into this world. People have many different understandings of what a friend is. A lot of it is based on need and not necessarily this real act of sharing, This give and this take and really whatever it is you're looking for you first have to make sure you're offering it. And I think often the best friendships, The most powerful friendships are based on a desire for growth. Welcome to the spiritually hungry podcast episode 10. We are discussing a topic I find quite interesting. It's universal in humanity and has the ability to teach us something profound about life and ourselves if we're open to it. Whether a friend arrives for a reason, A season or develops with us over a lifetime, They can serve as a mirror for our essence. So we are going to speak about friendship today. Friends can be our historians, Our secret keepers and our partners in life's journey and our anchors during turbulent times. So my view of friendship has changed a lot throughout the years. As a child, I remember the first thing that excited me about having a friend or discovering a new one was that we shared a curiosity and laughter. It was the first time I ever felt autonomous because before that I was my mother's daughter and that was my closest relationship. And I remember when I started developing friendships, I realized I had a power that I could influence others and that was very comforting and felt very strong for me. Interesting with something as a child, I don't think I put any thought to friendship. Well I think, Did you have a lot of friends growing up? I had a few. What I liked was that I could have an exchange with somebody and it was unique to me and I could create connection. And I found that to be a constant theme in my life, Which we'll go into a little bit later. But for me, Friendship really in a nutshell is about connection and creating connection with others. Then in my teen years, A friend was someone who would stand by my side, Whether I was met up against a bully or a teacher that maybe embarrassed me. Thank you, Mr. Palser, Fifth grade. And in high school, In high school friends were those that I felt were most like me. We had a zest for life, We were spontaneous, We were definitely mischievous. I've heard some stories. Would you want me to tell you one now? Sure. I remember of the many things we'd done, I'm not going to go into lots of them, But there was a period of time where I smoked cigarettes and we used to go into my bathroom and we would blow out the window all of the smoke. And of course it would come back into my room and it would go down the hallway and my parents would smell it. And then we would spray the bathroom with eternity perfume. It was by Calvin Klein. And to this day, We sprayed so much of it that if I smell it, If I walk by somebody that has it on, I'll start gagging. But it's those kinds of silly, Ridiculous things that you do that are also fun, In this case could be deadly, But you feel like you belong somewhere, You're part of something. And now in my adulthood, I can say a friend is all of these things and more. I love this quote by Ania Sinan. She says, Each friend represents a world in us, A world possibly not born until they arrive. And what I've realized in my adulthood, More than anything that I've described, To find a good friend, You actually need to be a good friend. Very true. Beautiful. There's so much of what you said really should be unpacked. And before we get to the question, I just want to share really the importance of this topic. I think even in our conversations around, We're so thankful to be receiving so many really beautiful questions from so many of our listeners, But relationships, Everybody knows, It's a top of mind for everybody. And anger, Sadness, Happiness, All these topics are really top of mind, I think, For many people. Friendship is one that doesn't seem to often get as much attention as so many other topics. And it's actually an interesting historical reality that probably the first thinker who wrote at length about friendship is Aristotle. And he literally has books filled with it. He certainly placed it at a very high level of importance, If not the pinnacle of the purpose of human existence. And then there were other Cicero who wrote about it. But then in the past few thousand years, There's been really a dearth of writing and focus on friendship, Even though it's something that we all have and we all, To some degree or another, See as important. But spiritually, And I think this is what lends such an importance to this conversation and to this podcast, It really is the ultimate purpose of our being. There's a phrase that is often repeated in the Bible. It says, Love your neighbor or your friend or your acquaintance. That word, Ra-cha, Which is the original Hebrew is translated in many different ways. But love your friend as yourself. And that's really the first really awakening of the importance of friendship. But lost in hundreds of thousands of other verses, One could conclude, Okay, It's one of the important things among so many others. I also think that we have all heard that one, Right? Even if you're not well versed in the Bible, Everybody's heard that one, Right? And I think people understand it to mean different things. For sure, For sure. But then one of the greatest sages upon whom so much of Kabbalistic wisdom is based, Urbea Kiva said, This is the most important teaching and everything else, Everything else is just a way to achieve that. And if you really, And again, I know that I've shared this idea many times, But if you really give that statement a moment and you realize that as you're assessing yourself and it's important if we are spiritual beings to be thinking about ourselves, Where am I, Who am I, How am I growing, How am I not? The question of friendship needs to be the uppermost question. Am I a good friend? Do I have good friends? And I know we'll speak more about what that means, But let's begin this conversation with the importance of it. This isn't just about, You know, You want to go through life and you want to have somebody to share it with, Or you want to have friends to have fun with and so on and so forth. All those might be important, But on a deep soul spiritual level, This is the most important purpose for which our soul came into this world. Let me ask you a question. Do you feel personally that your appreciation for what a friend is and the place that it has in your life has changed through the years? And also, Did you value it more earlier in life or later in life? I do know the answer to that one. I'm just doing this for all of you. But what's interesting is, And this is really kind of the paradox of what I said up until now, Which is that I knew the phrases that I shared. Love your neighbor as yourself. This is the most important purpose of being and the most important purpose of all of our spiritual work. But the truth be told from the age of, You know, If I can remember myself, Zero until basically till I really got to know Monica and then beyond, Friendship was certainly not something that I gave much value to. Certainly not. And even as I entered into our relationship, I'm not sure that I valued it at the top as the number one. But certainly as I've continued to develop hopefully and go through life and you face challenges that you don't face when you're four years old, Usually or 10 years old, I have completely shifted and I thankfully I think to the right place of holding the importance of friendship. What's so interesting is as you're speaking, I'm thinking about wedding vows, Right? Of course it's to love and to hold and to stick to his health until death do us part, Etc. And so forth. You say it like it's unimportant. Well, We didn't utter ours exactly like that. So that's why I'm saying like that. Of course it's important, But I don't think a lot of people do that anyway in a marriage. But we're not going to talk so much about relationships in that way today. But friendship doesn't really come up in that. But in order to be able to offer all the things that you say in your wedding vows, You need to be a friend first and foremost. I mean, This is the beginning of every great love story, Every great romance, But nobody ever says it like that. So I think that when you were talking about when we first got married, We went around along with what we understood it meant to be a husband or a wife, Not even necessarily a great one, A good one, Right? We loved each other, But friendship wasn't, It was kind of assumed. Wound or not given enough importance and therefore not enough importance and not enough emphasis was placed on that. Right. And it's funny as we're talking, There is, I know a lot that we both want to share about this topic, But I would even, Again, Like I sometimes do, I would stop all of our listeners and regardless of anything else we say, If there's only one thing you can take from the next conversation, My hope is, And I know Monica's hope is that we actually change the importance of friendship in your esteem. And then that means you will invest in different ways. Hopefully you'll learn some other lessons from what we share, But it's the most important thing in life. It's the most important thing in life. And I'll do a quick plug here before I share one other thought. There's two books that I found really beautiful. One a little bit more academic, One more heartfelt. There's one book on friendship by Alexander Nijamas. He's a Greek American philosopher. So that's one's more academic, But really beautiful. And there's a book by Andrew Sullivan. We're one of the chapters really dedicated to French, Really beautiful, More heartfelt than intellectual, Though intellectual as well. And the reason I share that is because I really hope that all of our listeners, After hearing this podcast or even just the first few minutes of it, Begin shifting the importance of friendship in our lives. And like you said, Although we're not talking about only friendship that leads or that is really the center, Should be the center of romantic relationships, Of soulmate relationships, What becomes very clear and certainly became very clear to me, I have to say honestly, A few years into our marriage, That without friendship, I'm not sure what love is. And you really can't get, I don't believe you can get to love without a strong foundation of friendship. So friendship is the fuel for love. Right. And it's the realer part of love. Because honestly, For most people, Love is more lust. And there's a lot of philosophy around this. But you know, You fall in love with somebody. What does that mean for most people? You see somebody who you think is beautiful, Or good looking, Right? After three seconds, You're in love. It appeals to your five senses, Right? Friendship takes time. So friendship is more real, Whether or not and I have been blessed to have other friends besides Monica. But even if for the purpose of really having an amazing relationship with your spouse, The focus on friendship, The understanding of it, What is a true friend? What does it take to be a good friend? Is again, The most probably the most important endeavor that we take in our lives. And again, I think most of us don't spend enough time and effort thinking about friendship, Thinking about what it means to have a good friend, Probably more importantly, Thinking about what it means. How do I need to change? How do I need to develop to become a better and better friend? And the final thought around, I would say the spiritual understanding of friendship. Many of you know that there 2000 years ago, There was really a great spiritual awakening in what is now the land of Israel at the time, A land ruled by the Romans. And there was a small group of mystics led by Rabbi Shimon Baruch Hay and he traveled with his small group of nine students throughout the Galilee and they would study. But different and not sure if there is another historical equivalent of this that precedes Rabbi Shimon Baruch Hay. But he called, He stressed the fact that we are going to be called friends. And there's actually an interesting moment actually in the New Testament as well where Jesus tells his students, We are no longer teacher and student but rather we are friends. Rabbi Shimon Baruch Hay tells his students, Our relationship, Even though I'm the teacher, You're the student, Is a bond of friendship. And he says everything that we do from now on must be based on love. And for me what that means, And the Aramaic words again which probably don't mean very much to most of our listeners but I love these words and I think about them often, He says anan bechavevut atalia, Which means from now on we are the friends and our relationship is based on love. Because he knew, And I think this is the message we all want to receive and really endeavor to grow, That anything important that's going to be done, Any important wisdom that's going to be brought to this world as Rabbi Shimon revealed to Zohar 2, 000 years ago with his friends and with his students has to be based on friendship. Certainly any powerful relationship must be based on friendship. And that's why I'm so excited to be able to have this conversation and share with our listeners some ideas around friendship and we'll answer some questions around friendship. But again, If the only thing you get out of this conversation is, Wow, I didn't understand how important friendship is for everything in my life. It's not just this thing that I have a friend, We enjoy drinks together or I have a few friends and we enjoy other things together. It is the purpose for which our soul came into this world and it is the foundation upon which anything important will be done, Anything important will come into fruition. I'm so happy we're going to unpack it because even as you were speaking, I think that people have many different understandings of what a friend is. A lot of it is based on need and not necessarily this real act of sharing this give and this take and really whatever it is you're looking for, You first have to make sure you're offering it. Absolutely. Yeah, Sure. I remember, You know, As I went through the stages of my life, But I did have a best friend for 20 years and looking back on that friendship, We're no longer best friends. You know, It wasn't such a balanced relationship. You know, It was a lot of expectation and we knew what we did every day and who we went out with. There was a lot of gossip and yes, There was an affinity and we were close and we had so much in common, But in the realest ways, I think that's why the friendship unraveled. It didn't reveal itself in this way. And even as a teacher, You know, It's a fine line. I often thought that being a good teacher, Right, Was more important than actually being a friend. And if you are a teacher, Can you be a friend? Is that crossing a line in some way? But I've understood now, Especially in the last couple of years, That really friendship is the most important aspect of any relationship and not just in romantic ones, As we just said, But even in teacher, Student, Mother, Daughter, Everywhere. And I think there's an ego aspect to friends, Right? Are we equal? You know, Do you call me as much as I call you? It becomes something really different, Especially I see in women and how their interactions are. And I think it's also important to talk about the unraveling of friendships, Why they occur. Sometimes it's okay. And sometimes, You know, It's a failure on either both or one of the friends. Before we get to the question, I, You know, When I think about friendship, I think one of the places to start, You know, What's a real true friend. So Aristotle wrote that there's really three foundational acts of friendship, He calls them. And again, All three probably should be impacted as well. But I think it's a good place to at least in our own consciousness, As we think about our current friends and even friends that we want to, Friendships we want to develop. And he says, First is to want only good for your friend, And to want nothing bad to happen. One of the chapters in the book on friendship talks about a couple who's planning their wedding, And they're writing down the list of friends they're going to invite, And they start talking about the types of friends that they have. So they have friends that they hate, Friends that they don't like, Right? We all, We all move in the, In the, In the, In the term of friendship. And fortunately, I'm sure that there are friends who call themselves friends, And are not benevolent towards each other. They do not want good to happen. As a matter of fact, They get so excited, Unfortunately, When some hardship befalls this person, They call their friend. So benevolence, Aristotle says, That a true desire for my friend to have only good happen in their lives. That's very rare. Nothing negative. It really is. Yeah, Let's think about that. Let's go on and say if you have, You know, One or two people that you can call a real friend, You're lucky. Yeah, My father would often repeat that, That, That if in life your merit to have one true friend, And that's where I want to focus our conversation, A true friend, Then you're blessed. So benevolence, Right? So that's the first, Wanting true goodness for our friends, Wanting nothing negative to happen to them. Concordance, Which means there has to be some ways that we're alike, You know, And I think often the best friendships, The most powerful friendships are based on a desire for growth, That both friends are focusing their lives to some degree or another. It doesn't have to be equal, But there is a concordance of their desire to focus on growth. And by the way, Growth can be they want to become smarter. I focus on the spiritual. They want to become bodybuilders or because this can be, That's what I was going to say, It can be in a negative way too. If you're looking at some ways where you're alike, Well, If you're looking at the parts of you that are maybe just selfish or right, Or, And you find somebody who's even more selfish, It's going to bring you down. And that's why Aristotle talks about virtue, That the concordance has to be based on something good, Has to be based on something good. So there has to be something alike. And I think, And I know certainly in the relationships that you and I foster in Friends, It's almost always based on the fact that we have in common the desire to grow spiritually, To grow as people, To evolve as people. And the third is the desire to share with your friend. Not just the desire, The actual action of beneficence, As Aristotle calls it, To give good to your friend and your friend reciprocates back to you. So those, If we think about friendship in that framework, Right, So it has to be benevolent, The relationship has to be the desire from one to the other of only goodness and nothing negative happening. So concordance, A virtuous foundation, So the desire for both of them, That's it, To grow, To change, As we said. And then beneficence, The desire and the action of actually sharing with each other. So because. . . I love this. I wish this was a class in elementary school because normally it's like. . . It should be, Right? Really, Right? Because children don't know, Like, Oh, Somebody was nice to me, They're my friend. And then they look for that in other people. Friends on Facebook, Right? Right, Exactly. I would say, I would venture to guess that 99. 9% of friends on Facebook do not fit the criteria of a true friendship. Aristotle, Right. Yeah. So do we want to get to one of the questions? Yes, Let's get to the first question. So what is a true friend? I think many of us use the word friend so lightly, Whether it's a person you've known forever, Or an acquaintance, Or somebody you've met one time. Even someone who is negative, We may even call them a friend just because we were friends in high school. So what is a friend? Very good. Actually, We should have read this question a few minutes ago before we went into it. But I think it's important to realize that what we're talking about when we say friendship, Although there are different types of relationships that we have that we call friends, The only true friendship is one that is, Again, As we said before, Falling within the three acts of friendship that Aristotle laid forth, Which is the desire for good, Some virtuous similarity of purpose, And the sharing with each other. I also think just, You know, It's, You should see how this person makes you feel about yourself even, Right? So there's three things that I think are really important. One is to be able to open up to the person. By doing that, You, First of all, You're vulnerable to somebody else, And you're showing them your authentic side. So you also get to know yourself in the process. In my greatest friendships, I've discovered things about myself that I didn't even know existed. That's a very important point. I don't mean to cut you off, But I'll just say, As I was thinking about this. Oh, But you just did. I'm sorry. I apologize. And the phrase that came to mind is, The level of friendship is how many layers can you take off in front of that friend? Yes. And really allow yourself to be seen. The good, The bad, The ugly, The beautiful. And that takes effort, But also the person has to be, Again, They have to meet you in that space. Right? You shouldn't open yourself up just to anybody in that way. Right. I'll continue your thought, Because I have so many thoughts about it. No, Go ahead. No, But I think that that is so important. Because again, All of our listeners think about the people you call friends. How many of them are you actually comfortable? Is it safe for you? Forget about being comfortable, Because it's not about going ahead and telling everybody all your deepest thoughts and secrets. Because 99. 9% of your Facebook friends, You should not be telling them any of that, Because they're not true friends. That acceptance, We speak about this often, Because in our lives, We've had the opportunity to have quite a few, Many, Many friends in the general sense of it, And a few very, Very close friends. And we've also had the opportunity to be hurt by friends. And as we go through life, And I think it's important that we do put ourselves out there for the cause of friendship, You are going to be hurt. Now hopefully, As you get better at choosing the right friends and cultivating the right friendships, That will happen less and less. But I know, And Monica and I have often spoken about this personally, That to have the courage to enter into new friendships and to become vulnerable in new friendships after having been hurt by prior friends takes courage. And the ability to become vulnerable. And I think one of the most important thoughts around friendship should be, It needs to be somebody that really supports me. And what does that mean? That means that they'll see my negative sides. We all have things that we've done wrong, That we will do wrong. The friend who doesn't judge, The friend who you really feel supports you no matter what, Although that's a phrase that, You know, What does no matter what really mean? But that is really when you have somebody in your life, And I know, You know, Not to speak too much about our relationship, But I think probably the most powerful driver of our relationship, Which we have to continue to cultivate forever, Is the fact that we are very open, Vulnerable. We will show each other our. . . All of our sides. All of our sides, Yeah. I think that. . . I'm sorry, It's just so important. I just think because, You know, Friendship is something that, You know, It's just a word that is so overused. That's the problem. And this point, Like really ask yourself this question. You need to have at least one person in your life that you feel comfortable, And they might not be there yet, But think about that, Who you can really open yourself up completely to, And they won't judge you. They will accept you. But what do you say? But again, To find a friend like that, You need to be that friend, Right? And as you. . . And people aren't capable of that. That's the reality. Unfortunately, I think many people are not able to accept and not judge. But I also feel like it's an awareness. I feel like if people really understood that this is what friendship really looks like, Then they would probably step up and say, Okay, I'm not going to do this anymore because I know I'm going to be damaging this relationship, And I really like this person. I really want to develop further with them, Right? I don't think. . . I think it's more just not knowing, And that's why they don't do better. Right? Not always, But I think that. . . Yeah, I would say not knowing, And also as we spoke earlier, Not understanding that for real happiness in life, You have to have a friend. Because this kind of friendship is what creates intimacy, And not just romantic sense. It's really what allows you. . . And that's the best part of friendships, Right? When you feel like it's like going home. It's a part of yourself that you couldn't find alone, Right? But when you're talking about people that have come into our lives, I mean, This is why my definition and understanding of friendship has changed so much throughout my life. Because early on, I really did have an expectation that your friend would always remember your birthday, And they would tell you all of their secrets. It was a lot of things that I had expected. What I've come now to understand, The only thing I think I really do expect is for people to be consistent, Right? To show up and to be loyal. I think that that's a fair ask. That's an important word. I think that's a really fair ask. And when we look at some of the friendships that we've had that are no longer part of our lives, I think a lot of it too is that you and I are in a unique way in that we sometimes become friends with people we are also teachers to, Right? So we know really intimate parts of their lives. They show us all of their sides. We accept them. We help them. And then sometimes when people don't find value in what you're offering, It's not really about us, They don't know where to put us anymore. So was the friendship really unconditional? Was it real? Was that a real friendship? I think it had a potential to be a friend. I would say again in the general term that's a friendship. Friendship means again I received something from you and therefore I value our relationship. But real friendship needs to be reciprocal. Which means that I really, This is another important thing that I realize and again I accept it. How many people really want to hear how you do it? I know again in so many of our… a lot of people ask me the question. Yeah, But even those who ask, Right? But think about again I can ask all of our listeners to think about this. About yourself, Right? Forget about your friends but how are you as a friend? Which means I often know if I was going to say get the sense but it's very clear to me often that in this relationship the person really wants me to hear what they have to say, Wants me to help them in any way that I can, Wants me to give advice if I can, Wants me to share wisdom if I can. But they don't really care how my day went. I won't bore them with an explanation of how my day went. But when we talk about true friendship, True friendship is one where both parts in the relationship in that friendship really care about. They really have you know a benevolent spirit towards each other. And what I want to say is it's so rare that I want everybody who's listening to really think about that. It's a small, Small box and that's how it's meant to be because it's very difficult to find that. So it's not I think in life we think like oh I'm really likable if I have a lot of friends, Right? And we understand by having a lot of friends you're a good person. That is a complete lie. That's not what a friend is at all. That's not what a real friendship is. So I really want people to rethink this whole idea. The second part of what I think to be a good friend is is to be able to listen to others fully and completely. Because this creates an emotional feedback loop. By me listening to you, Right? And this happened earlier in our marriage. And really wanting to hear what you had to say. Waiting to hear the answer. I would watch you. I would see how your face would change when you were upset. I would see what you would look like when you were curious about something. I was really interested in what you were offering and I paid attention to it. And so now I can walk in a room and just by looking at you in a split second know what you're thinking. And I think you can say the same about me. So if people don't go about friendships this way to really want to hear what the other person has to say. To really listen fully and completely. They're not going to get that emotional feedback loop. And the relationship is never going to go deeper than a certain point. Absolutely. I do want to touch upon the idea you said before. We gloss over it relatively quickly. And I group these two things together. The loyalty of loyalty and non-judgment. And with your permission I'd like to. I feel like I cut you off. I'm sorry. Let me let you finish. No, I'll get to my third point after. No, No, Please get to your third point. All of our listeners. Two and a half. No, Go ahead. That would be way back to point number one. So there's a statement in the Talmud that says the following. And three statements said together, Which seemed to imply a relationship between the three. It says, Make for yourself a teacher. Buy or acquire for yourself a friend. Number two. See, Two. Three and judge every person favorably. So three would seem to be unrelated teachings. But they are grouped in one sentence and seem to apply relationship. Make for yourself a teacher. Acquire for yourself a friend. And judge every person favorably. And the understanding of that is that when you have a true friendship, Then you have a teacher. What does that mean? If you're able to be vulnerable in front of somebody who has the same general thoughts about life, What's important, What's not important, Where you should be growing, What you should be letting go of, Then you have a teacher. Friendship and being a teacher is actually one in the same, Like you mentioned before. Acquire for yourself a friend, Obviously, Is everything we've spoken until now. But the third part, Which is so important, And judge every person favorably. And I have found in our own relationships and I have found in other people's relationships that have been shared with us, That that is the Achilles heel of friendship. Judgment. If you are not able to judge a person favorably, Which means it doesn't mean you're blind, But that you accept, But really accept, Then friendship is going to go off the rails at some point. Because this is going to be something that he or she does that either bothers you enough or upsets you enough that you'll just take the whole friendship and throw it away. And unless you're really working on that, Becoming a less and less judgmental person, I don't think there's any hope of any friendship or any relationship for that matter. Really, Really working. Well, That's what's so interesting. And as I said a little earlier, I think this happens a lot more with women, Unfortunately. And sisterhood is really important to me because I have been on the receiving end of a lot of judgment. But I do have to say, Though, When people are judging others, The person they judge the most is themselves. So while we talk about, Okay, You shouldn't judge, You really have to start to begin with yourself. And I think that that's why with women, Especially when we look and see another woman being powerful or successful, Or even happy, And then you might feel lack in your own life, Then instead of feeling that pain about how you feel about yourself, It's easy then to project it onto somebody else. And that 20-year friendship that I had that I spoke about at the beginning, That really was the demise of the friendship because 20 years in, One day, Really just one day, And you remember this, I was devastated. I felt like she had died because it was such a sudden loss. She came to me and she said, I don't want to be your friend anymore. And I thought she was joking at first. I mean, Really like a sister to me. We ran together. We did marathons together. We were pregnant at the same time. And I thought we had those three things that Aristotle said. And I think at times we probably did. But I was going to say, I don't know if you were going to get to this, But why did she say that? What's the difference between anything you did? Oh yeah, I'm going to get there, Mr. Berg. So as I was saying with my story, And she said to me these horrible things that, You know, Horrible, Like when I walk in a room, I'm like this and like that. I mean, Things that I remember thinking the time you tell this to somebody or think it, Maybe you don't even say it out loud, Like when you're deciding if you want to be their friend, Right? Maybe a week into the friendship or a month or maybe even a year, Right? Like, Oh, I didn't think this person was exactly as I thought, But 20 years. And in those 20 years, By the way, I was working really hard to be a better person. So I was really confused by what she meant. And I remember coming to you hysterically because you are my best friend. And I said, You know, It's still even after the two interruptions today. Yeah, I don't know, Like, Now a little bit lower on the list now. But you but I said to you, Is this true? Right? If I don't see it, But maybe I'm blind to my faults. Please tell I'm begging you if you see this also, I'll work really hard to change this part of myself. So I was devastated. I just couldn't understand. And he said, Monica, I promise you, Isn't the case. I'm like, You love me because I'm your wife. And you're like, No, I promise you. That's just not true. And then she wouldn't speak to me. And I begged her. I'm like, Where's this coming from? Nothing radio silence. She wouldn't speak to me for a month. Well, We wouldn't take my calls for a month. And then it was we're out of the country. And then I came back, She lived across the street. And then for three months, Again, She didn't speak to me. And I remember the ending of that conversation that we had, I said, One day, You're going to regret this, You're going to wake up, I don't know what is going on. But you will regret this. And it's going to be too late, Because you've severed something that we can never get back again. And it was so painful for me, I'd never felt that kind of loss. And I felt horrible about myself, I really didn't understand. And at the end of it, I remember I woke up every morning for months, And I would ask the universe, I'd asked the Creator, Why did this happen? Nothing happens for nothing. I want to know the reason why did this happen. And I understood spiritually, Months and months later, For my purpose, Just for me, Not for her and why she did it, But for my movie, It was that all the time I spent gossiping with her and talking to her and thinking about her and just we were so consumed with one another, That was a lot of hours. And when the friendship ended, I started to really study more, I started to teach, I started to write books. And I realized that all that energy I was putting into a friendship that didn't have those three aspects were really taking away from me as a person. And I wasn't my best self all the time when I was with her. We had a great time, We had the best time, But I wasn't my best self. I think in some way it was hindering my growth. And later she came to me wanting to be friends again and then she was crushed and she said she didn't know what came over her, Maybe it was a midlife crisis. And it didn't really matter at that point. Well I think there was probably a friend or two that were… That had influenced her negatively against me is what I understood from her. She certainly was not judging you positively. But she was judging me for sure and she was open to other people's judgment at that time and that created the opening and ended the friendship. So what I've come to understand now though, What a real friend, What a true friend is, Is just again that consistency and wanting back to love your neighbor as yourself. It's wanting goodness for another human as much as you want for yourself on your very best day. Because some people are like, Well, Love another as I love myself. I don't really love myself, Right? But that's ultimately where you want to get to. And in that of course is loyalty like you said or like I said to begin with and showing up. I've talked to a friend a while where I love. She says many people want to drive with you when you're in a limo but you want a friend that's going to take the bus with you when your limo breaks down. It's just that complete like just showing up. Right because and everything we said about friendship until now, Let's even assume because we know this story and this person was just listening to other people's judgment. But let's even assume that as a friend you see something really wrong in your friend and you have everything we spoke of until now which is you have loyalty and you really love them and you really wish the best for them. You'll go to that friend and say, Listen, I've noticed these things. How can I help you? Or you know, I really think you should be aware of them. So I know you want to grow and so on and so forth. That's a real friend. But the Achilles heel of many relationships, Even that have the potential to become true friendships is not listening to that third part of the sage's dictum which is and judge the other person favorably. And this is so important and again something we need to work on because it's not human nature. Human nature is, You know, Like you said, I'm with my friend, I have a friendship, I have a friendship and then he or she does something I don't like or I see something that they do that I don't like and then it starts eroding, Eroding, Eroding and then over time there's just no friendship there. And by the way, Forget about trying to fix it. It's just gone. So I think it's so important as we talk about friendship, It's also important to talk about what really kills friendship. And that's why the sage has put juxtaposed those two phrases right next to each other. Acquire a friend and judge every person favorably. If you are not fighting against your own nature to judge a person negatively and allow those thoughts just enter your mind, Over time you're actually killing the friendship. It's interesting too because I have a lot of people I do love, Right? And I do consider friends but there's often times I do feel judged by them and I know where it's coming from and it's really not so much about me as it is about them and how they feel about themselves or about life or situations. But it's always still a little painful because I just turn the other cheek and say, Okay, I'm going to love them anyway. I'll still be a good friend to them. It's going to limit what kind of friendship we have and how deep we can go and if we can grow or not. I'll still consider them a friend because I've really been able to say, Okay, It's not I can see where it's coming from. But I always just get a little bit of like, It's too bad. You know, It doesn't have to be that way because you can find a lot of amazing characteristics and people that you see that they would be worthy of being a great friend and you can see where the friendship could go. But it's missing these key ingredients that we're speaking about. And I was thinking one of the things I think that, Again, Not to speak highly of ourselves, I think we did make that commitment with our friends and we have seen friends do really nasty things and we've seen friends, We've experienced friends doing really negative things towards us. But I know that I take this understanding seriously and I will always forgive a friend even if they've hurt me or even if they've done actions that I think are really not the positive actions because that's one of the most important foundations of friendship. Judge your friend favorably. It doesn't mean you're blind. You see it, But you accept it. And I'd like to share… I just want to say I think I do the same, But they're no longer called friends then. I still love them and they still hold a place in my history and in my heart. Well, If they've hurt you. Yes. And not hurt, It damaged. Some things are, You know, Beyond repair. For sure, For sure. So again, Andrew Sullivan writes about this which I think is so important because again, I believe this is a foundation of true lasting friendship and certainly even as it relates to relationships, You know, So many relationships. So he differentiates between tolerance and acceptance. And I think often when we think about our friends and even sometimes when we think about our spouses, We tolerate certain things about them. We really, Really don't like them, But we tolerate. That is already the beginning of the cracks of that relationship. So he says there is a world of difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance is that distant agreement to live and let live, A political and social virtue as necessary as it is difficult. Acceptance is an impassioned, Often hostile engagement with 90% of a person and a complete embrace of all of him. It is a personal and private virtue and friendship at its heart is not about tolerance. Friendship is about acceptance. And I think this is so important whether we talk about a relationship between a husband and wife, A spouse, Or friendships that we develop with our friends, Not judging and acceptance. Think about that. You know, Think about your relationship. Think about your friends. And again, Not all friendships can actually become this true friendship that we're talking about, But those that can don't allow the cracks of judgment, Don't allow the tolerance as opposed to acceptance. You want to have a great friendship. You want to build a true friendship. Make sure that you are changing in such ways that you can truly embrace and accept your friend with their lack, With those things that otherwise you would be tolerating. And I think this goes back to something you said in the beginning. We have to be becoming better friends all the time. We really have to be investing time, Effort, And thought, And action into becoming a better friend. Well, When you say tolerance, For me that's already halfway. Like if you think of a line down the middle of equal sides, Tolerance is already just slightly below the line because then you hear things like, I can barely tolerate. Then it's untolerable. I mean, Tolerance is just, You're already slightly in the negative, Right? And acceptance is fully, Again, It's connected to authenticity, To vulnerability. All of those beautiful things where you arrive, You are not afraid to be seen for even the parts of you that you want to change. But the third point I did want to get to in my friendship thing is to be consistent and accountable. And that's a really big one for me because when we're forming attachments, Which is basically friendship, Right? Connection, We need to create a secure, Safe environment for us to be able to do that. And that's with children, That's when you have a baby, That's in marriages, It's everywhere, Right? To create a secure attachment. So if you are a friend that never answers your texts or waits three days, Right? Or they're not available for you when you really need them, They're not reliable, That is going to limit what kind of friendship you have. And sometimes I think about this, Because we talk about this a lot, I'll have people I really love. And there's times that they're more present in my life and times where they're not. And I used to think though, It's just, I'm a Virgo and I can do that kind of thing and create space because I'm busy and it doesn't, But I love them. And I just thought it's just the way I navigate friendships. And I realized really in understanding what friendship means to me, What a friend is, That it's for this reason that sometimes I end up pulling away. It's not even, It's just that the person was not reliable. They were not consistent. And therefore my ability to attach to them, To stay attached now is compromised. Can I challenge you a little bit? Yeah, Please do. 60%. I'll challenge 40% of it. So the word consistent to me means something a little bit different. I don't think a friendship is somebody who at times they're hot and cold, Right? For whatever reason, You try to engage with them and they're not interested today or they're angry at you today and so on. But I have what I would consider at least important if not very. . . So you're saying you are accepting of hot and cold? That's not what you consider? No, No, No, No, No, No, No. I'm saying I'm not accepting of that. Meaning. . . I'm not either. Okay, That's the part we agree on. I disagree and disagree. But let's say you have a friend who doesn't. . . You're not around all the time, Right? But the love, The benevolence is there, The concordance is there, Right? So you really, Really wish the best for them. You really love them and you really have a lot in common with them. But you're not talking all the time. I think. . . And maybe this is. . . Maybe, And again, Maybe this is a little different between men and women, But I do think that if their love is there and their friendship is there and the desire for true goodness for each other, I think you can consider it a true friendship, Even if you're not in contact all the time. But see, I'm not saying. . . I agree with you and I have friends all over the world where I might talk to them once a year and I feel 100% good friend checks all the boxes, Okay? I'm talking about when you have somebody that let's say you speak to once a week, Right? They've always been in your life, But whenever. . . And they have something new in their life, Let's say a new relationship or a boyfriend and now when he comes to town, You don't hear from the person for two or three weeks and they know you're going through a hard time and they don't check in on you ever. And then after the boyfriend's gone, Then they call you weekly again. For me, It creates a real. . . It doesn't check all the boxes then. I hear what you're saying, But I would say it's just a different. . . I don't think there's anybody you want to talk to once a week other than me. So I don't know if this is. . . I just think that the way we feel and the way we connect is a little bit different. And I think for what creates healthy attachments for me is different than what it is for you. Okay. So we'll agree on that. Right. Because I do think for me, If the person. . . I think there's one thing you said which does make sense to me, Which is that they know you're going through a difficult time and you really need their support, But because they're otherwise engaged, They're not going to give you the support that they know you need. They're not going to give you the support that they need. Or they won't even check on you just to be aware of where you're at. Right. I just. . . I don't know. It feels like. . . Let me bring this for you. Okay? Let's say with one of our children, Right? Let's say that they are so thoughtful and so considerate and consistent and checking with us all the time. And then when it's baseball season, Whatever, For a couple of months, A different version of the person. Do you think that's going to create some kind of space? It's just not a consistent thing. And then you rely, You expect something else from them. Again, I think we attach differently. Yeah. Obviously, If we were talking about our friendship, If that occurred, That would be a big problem. But in the other friendships that I have, I'm not sure that it would be. Okay. So then with us. Yes. Oh, It would be a big problem. Right. So now you've gotten it. Maybe again, I just think that in terms of attachment, I think you attach to less people than I allow myself to. And it's just our style. It's not one is right or one is wrong. Yeah. I agree. I'm not going to get into this conversation. I am planning on talking about this. I hope you don't mind. But we moved to New York. We had a very different schedule. It was very stressful. And I felt that lack of consistency between us and our communication. And if you recall, It was a big deal for me. We had a few serious talks that I always brought up because I was like, I'm feeling disconnected. I realized about me again, To feel connected, I need that consistent accountability. Yeah, I understand. Certainly again, In the most important friendships and certainly ours being the most important for us, For sure. So I'm not sure. So you agree? You're absolutely right. I do want to get to one more question because I think it's a really good one. So the question is, What do you do when you realize that even though you have a history of someone and found real value in each other in the past, You don't really like them anymore? And what I like about this question is, First of all, It's a really honest one. And you know, I like the honest questions. And it's something we probably don't want to say we have felt before with people. But if we're honest, We all have. I do think there's something noble in honoring your history with another person. But if you have a friend that makes you feel uncomfortable, Or that hurts you repeatedly, Or doesn't allow you to grow, I do think we have a responsibility to diminish the friendship. And I want to, It's a strong word diminish, Want to clarify, I mean, Not to cut them out completely. Because as your father, The Rav often said, If someone's been a friend to you, They're a friend forever. Which can be confusing, Right? Because on one hand, We're saying, Take out people, You know, Who don't serve you, Who may be gaslight you who make you feel really bad about who you are, You should no longer continue with that friendship. On the other hand, We're saying you have you want to be a friend forever. So what does it mean? It means that we do again, We have a responsibility to diminish a friendship that isn't working. But if somebody is our friend, It means that we appreciate our history together, We appreciate the times they did show up for us, That they were were there for us, They were part of our lives, And therefore, We can still show up for them when they need us most. It doesn't mean we're going to be with them every second of every day. But it's still they hold a really important part, I think, In our lives, I think, Generally speaking, When we no longer appreciate something today, That maybe we did, Let's say, Five years ago, We then undervalue the importance it actually had in our life, And the place that it held. And I think that's a failing on our own parts. Right. It's interesting, We actually had this conversation with friends over dinner last week, Because we're in these two, I would say, Different ideas here. One is that there are times when a friendship that was once very important to us should be moved aside to be I'm a big believer in keeping the doors open all the time, Which means I would never, Even if I find somebody used to be harmful in some ways, I would never close the door completely on them. But you do move your friendship to a different level. Right. You don't want it, You can diminish the friendship, But you don't want to abandon the friend. But you have to be careful. Like you said, This is the second thing you said that, Where is it coming from? Because I think what what often happens, And this is the conversation we were having about friendship with our friends last week, That usually in life when you're in this is true about relationships as well, When you're questioning, What is the relationship giving to me now, You're asking a selfish question, Which is might be important in the moment. Now, You might have had an amazing relationship with the past five years, 10 years, 20 years, And you got a ton from that relationship. But because human nature is not to appreciate the past, But to look at the present and hope for the future, We never almost almost never bring in the weight of appreciation for the past into our decisions on the present. I'll use an example, Which I won't say who it is because, But in dinner, I brought up this case with somebody in our lives that we both love very much, Who has often been judged by other people, Whether there were things that were right to judge or wrong to judge. The thing that bothered me the most whenever I saw this happening was that every almost every single one of the people who we were talking about who had judged this person and therefore severed their relationship to that person completely disavowed all the amazing goodness that they received from them. And that is probably the most painful, The saddest thing that we as human beings do. I agree. Because even, And this is why, You know, Why is it that when when when a couple who was truly in love for one year, Five years, 10 years, And they go through divorce, All they can speak about is the negative at that point. Why? Because they are focused on the today. Today, What is this person giving me? He's giving me grief. He wants my kids, He wants my money, Whatever that is. But what about again, But this is human nature we have to fight against. What about the amazing gifts, The amazing love if there was the amazing friendship that you had for five to 10 years, We just take that and throw it out like it never existed. And now I'm judging my relationship with them and and my friendship with them or my marriage to them on what is he or she giving to me in this moment. And unless we realize that as human beings, And this is this is this isn't just about friendship, This isn't just about relationship, This is about being a proper human being. We do this all the time. We do this all the time. We look at a person, How they are today, How they are to me today. And forget about the weight of appreciation for all the amazing, Beautiful things that they've brought into my life. And I know we I think we all fall to this at different times in your brain. Also, You actually forget the good. You can't even recall it. I've asked so many people who are getting divorced. I was like, Well, You know, Let's go back to your wedding day. How was it? You know, How did you feel that day? Well, This is like when they're thinking about divorce and trying to get them to awaken to what they liked about their spouse in the first place. And I literally had somebody say it was the worst day of my life. It rained. You know, I mean, All she could remember was everything that had gone wrong that day. But certainly on that day, She was actually very happy. I saw the pictures, Right? But she's forgotten all of that because she's no longer appreciating what's right in front of her. And you negate all of the past beautiful experiences and you just recall on the ones that were negative. Yeah, I just had a thought. Can you imagine if in during every divorce, Both exes kept in mind the weight of the appreciation of all the amazing good that would change every single divorce that ever happened. And so I call upon myself, Upon us and upon every person listening to this. It is our nature to in friendship, In relationship, To ask the question, What am I getting today? Please don't ever do that. Always make sure that you also add the question and how much appreciation do I have for all that this person, That this relationship, That this friendship has given to me until now. And when we talk about becoming a better friend and every single one of us needs to endeavor in this direction all the time, Make sure that you're fighting your nature in this regard in all areas, In every single relationship. Because this is, Again, I would say that one of the greatest pains that I've had in life, Whether it's in my own relationships that didn't turn out or continue as I had hoped, Or seeing this in other people that I love, The relationships that somehow ended for them in a way that was not positive, It was almost always because the person, One of the people in the relationship, Wants to or falls to the thought, Today, How do I feel? Today what am I getting? And completely negating all the amazing, Beautiful appreciation for all that has come before. I mean, I say this a lot, Even when people, Because I think, You know, I always say you should rethink everything. And you do have to consider friendships, Relationships, Your exercise routine, What you eat, Your diet, Your lifestyle. We should rethink things and make sure they're still working for us. But it should be in the context of remembering that when we chose to go down that path, When we chose that friend, When we chose that partner, When we chose that workout regimen or your spirituality or whatever, You chose it because it spoke to you and you felt a connection. And it worked for you for a while and you found value in it. Now if today, 10 years later, You wake up and you don't find the same value, It could be for a number of reasons. Maybe you've changed as a person for better or for worse. Maybe your desires are different. But it would behoove you to still look back and say, Wow, Those last 10 years, Look at how much I got, Look at how much I learned, Look at what I became and what I discovered. And from that sense and that place of appreciation, Then create another 10 years with whoever or whatever you want to do. That's our free will and that's our choice and that's a beautiful thing. But it does upset me when you completely throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's just like, Oh, You know, It was all bad. It's interesting. But you know, Often, And I think I've shared this once, That when people come to me before they get married and I've had this specific conversation exactly once, Exactly in this way once when somebody came to me and said, Now I really want to get married with this girl that I'm dating. And he goes on to list the amazing qualities that she has. And it was beautiful, It was great. I said to him, And what are the negative things about her that you don't like? And he said, Oh, There's nothing about her that I don't like. She's perfect. I said, Then you're not ready to get married because you're not seeing reality. You're seeing, Obviously, You're for whatever reason, You're seeing nobody is all good or all bad. Everybody has different parts, Every single one of us. If you're not seeing that and accepting that as well as part of the person you love, Then you're not ready to get married. I would say the reverse of that, As far as divorce, Whenever I'm having a conversation with somebody who their marriage is over, Or even in the context of this, They want to end the friendship, I would say, And they're going to list, What are they going to give me the endless list of all the negative things about them. And then you'll ask, What about the good? Oh, There's almost no good. Then you're not ready to get divorced yet. You're not ready to end the friendship. If you're able to list all the amazing things about this person and all the amazing things that you got, While also having the list of the negative and you put them together, You see, You know, Still the negative overwhelms the positive. I need a divorce or I need to end this friendship. Then you're ready to end the friendship. Then you're ready for divorce. But let's be honest with ourselves. We're almost never there. We're almost never there. In the moment that we choose to, The person chooses divorce, In the moment a person chooses to end the friendship, If they go through any thought process, It's, They just see the negative now. If you're just seeing the negative and you have no recollection and no appreciation for all the amazing things that have come before from this friendship or from this relationship, You're not ready to end it because you're not seeing reality. It's like there's a couple in my book that I write about in Rethink Love and she has a long list of all the things that she doesn't like about him. After years of marriage, I'll tell you the story. So you know, From the way that he brushes his teeth, You know, When he does brush his teeth, The way he leaves a toilet seat up or the worst one was how when he washes his hand, It's like a duck bouncing around in the basin and there's water all over the counter. And then when she leans forward to put her makeup on her blouse gets soaked. I mean, That would really irritate me too. But this is her list and it was endless. And she felt really unhappy in the marriage. So one day he went in for a very simple operation because he had Crohn's and he never woke up from the surgery. And she says that she was left with a list of all the things that she didn't like about this amazing man. Suddenly when he was gone, She remembered all the good, Right? All the beautiful memories that they had, All the things that they created. And she realized into her second marriage that love, And this is the same for friendship, It's not about meeting my needs and making me happy. It's a give and a take. It's about being able to see all aspects of a person and seeing yourself as well in the process. And far too often, We only look at others when we're feeling unhappy or upset about something and all the ways that they're not good enough or they should be different and then we would be satisfied or happy. And it's really never that way. Absolutely. And again, Like I said, I often like to, And I know this is a relatively lengthy conversation, I always wonder where people take from it. If there was just this other point, We began with the importance of friendship, But also the killer of friendship. And we all want to become better friends. Make sure that you're keeping judgment at bay, That you are more accepting and you're not tolerant in the way that we spoke about before. And that you're always endeavoring to keep a vision of the truth. And what's the truth? All the good that has come before and maybe the challenges that are presenting right now. Unless you're seeing the truth, You're going to kill the most amazing relationships. A Chas HaShanah person can kill the most amazing friendships. There's actually a quote which I think is important about relationships, Specifically friendships. So this is from the book, From Andrew Sullivan's book that I quoted earlier. So Cicero makes the point, Almost before he makes any other, All that I can do is to urge you to put friendship before all things human. He tells his listeners, For nothing is so in tune with our nature and nothing so adaptable to our fortune, Whether it is good or bad. But this I feel, First of all, That friendship cannot exist except among good men. And then Andrew Sullivan writes, He says, By this, Of course, He does not mean the friendships of convenience, Mutual advantage or pleasure that Aristotle showed such tolerance for. He means the kind of friendship that ascends to the ideal type between two equals in virtue and sensibility. For it takes a great deal of virtue to sustain the discipline of the highest friendship, To be capable of the complete trust, Stability, Maturity and concern for the good that a real friend must possess. And I really like that phrase, The discipline of the highest friendship. And like I say, For me, This is something that I certainly in my friendship with Monica, But really in my friendship with others, I really try to focus. It's a real discipline. It's something we got to learn. We need to be learning all the time, Becoming better friends. How do I become better friends? And if we understand this is why we came to this world, To be friends and to be better friends all the time, We should be spending a lot of time, Effort and thought around the discipline of true friendship. But it makes so much sense, I fully understand that now, Because why is friendship one of the highest forms of being spiritual? It's because our nature, Unless we are focused on not leading with our ego, Not becoming more selfish over time, I mean, Usually that's the direction we go in. And you really cannot be a good friend when you just put yourself first. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Friend. Thanks, Friend. Buddy. Thank you. So I hope you all enjoyed and I'll add here, Not just enjoyed this as much as we enjoyed recording it, But also really take the heart, This phrase, The discipline of the highest friendship. And you know, Even if just a few of our listeners really take the time and effort and develop this, Our world will be better. Certainly your lives will be better. Please continue to send your questions to Monica and Michael at kabala. Com, Monica and D Michael at kabala. Com. We will try to get as many of them as possible, But they really fuel our excitement around the podcast. So please, Even if we don't get to all of them, Please keep sending any questions. Also make sure to review this podcast, To share this podcast on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to them. I have to say personally, Again, It's amazing how many people are listening to this podcast that just launched just over two and a half months ago. And seeing that really continues to inspire us. And again, A real thank you and I really believe that listening, Just listening to this podcast on friendship will make you a better friend. Hopefully some of the lessons that you received as well. Thank you.