Singing From The Heart With Kirtan Artist Jai Uttal

What is kirtan and how can the power of music and singing connect us?

That's what we're going to explore today with Jai Uthal on Your Life in Process.

Well,

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Today's episode is a fun one.

It's my first time having a musician on.

And one of the reasons why I started this podcast was that I wanted creative freedom.

I wanted the space to ask questions of people that I find interesting about topics that I think may be useful in our well-being that include science and research,

But also extend beyond into the areas that are more mystical and have some mystery to them.

One of those areas for me is kirtan and bhakti yoga,

Which is yoga that comes from the heart.

It's a yoga of devotion,

Basically practicing to express love.

And kirtan is chanting that is done in groups,

Often in Sanskrit with call in response.

Jayutal is one of the most well-known kirtan artists.

He's a Grammy-nominated music composer and recording artist and multi-instrumentalist.

He combines influences from India with influences from American rock and jazz,

And he creates this beautiful fusion of world spirit music.

He's traveled all over India and has been studying kirtan for close to 50 years.

Bhakti yoga is his personal path,

And he leads and performs kirtan all around the world to thousands of people in a way that really helps them open their hearts and voices and connect.

His newest album is Dust in Tears.

In addition to interviewing him,

I'm going to be playing some of his music,

Some of my favorites,

As well as some songs from his new album.

When we look at the science of all of this and the psychological science of it,

We know that singing,

Particularly singing in groups,

Has a lot of benefits.

It releases endorphins,

It releases oxytocin.

It's thought to be evolutionarily,

We sang because it was a way to bond quickly with people.

And if you ever sung with people in a group before,

Whether it's church or maybe when you were a kid in school,

You feel that sense of being in unison.

There's been research into the benefits of singing for stress,

For anxiety,

Even our immune system.

If we go back and look at polyvagal theory from Stephen Porges,

It helps kind of explain some of this.

The vagus nerve that goes down through our diaphragm is stimulated,

Activated when we sing.

And in particular,

When you sing these types of chants,

Your breath slows down to that perfect pace that James Nester in his book Breath,

Which is about five breaths or so per minute.

And there's a long exhale.

Julie Kangas,

When I interviewed her about the science of yoga,

She's down at UC San Diego,

She talked about the importance of the exhale in activating our parasympathetic nervous system.

If we're looking at kirtan through a process-based lens,

The attentional dimension is really at play here where you are chanting the same chant over and over again for sometimes as long as 20,

30 minutes.

That repetition is a focus,

Right?

It takes your attention away from all the other places that your mind may be wandering to.

And there's also the process that's related to self and really the transcendence of self,

Where when you chant these repetitive chants,

Especially in a group,

You lose the sense of being separate and all the voices are one voice.

So it's really beautiful.

But Jayu Tal has a totally spiritual way of talking about these processes,

Not as much the psychological science,

But much more from the heart,

This bhakti yoga.

You're going to love him and you're going to love his music.

Enjoy.

Hi Jayu,

It's good to see you again.

Good to see you again too.

Yes,

So I say see you again,

I've only met you briefly in passing.

Where are you by the way?

I'm in Santa Barbara,

California.

We're in our atmospheric river right now.

Yeah,

Same.

It's insane out here.

Yeah,

Our school's closed for our kids.

It rains here and they close the schools now.

Lucky.

We kept our boy home,

But the school is open.

Yeah,

Yeah.

No,

It's all about UNO and indoor basketball right now up at my house.

I'm down here recording.

So hopefully our power will stay on through this.

But yes,

So yes,

The last time I saw you was in Costa Rica,

You actually kind of photo bombed me.

I did?

With Alyssa Epple.

What did I do?

Well,

So I was sitting down with Alyssa Epple on the couch.

We were having a little conversation and I asked someone to take a picture of the two of us.

And she said,

Oh,

Here,

Come on in.

I had no idea who you were.

Come on in to the photo.

Like,

Who is this random guy coming into my photo with Alyssa Epple?

And then she introduced us and I was a little bit awestruck because you have been with me on my yoga mat for decades.

And it's a real honor to be in your presence.

And then we started talking and it was nice to see you as a human as well.

So I'm excited to talk with you today.

Yeah,

I'm very much of a human.

When you practice with someone on your yoga mat,

You don't really know who they are.

You,

Krishna Das,

I kind of put you all in the same category.

Well,

It was good to meet you.

And it's good to photo bomb.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you were actually there because you had just finished off a retreat,

A kirtan retreat with Krishna Das and Devapramal and Mitton.

Was there any other artists on that?

Yeah.

IKANA,

Who live locally there.

Okay.

Okay.

So we were coming in on the heels and you were leaving from that.

And I think for many of the folks that are listening into this,

This is a psychology podcast.

So many of them don't even maybe have an orientation to kirtan and what it is.

And so I'm hoping today we can cover some of that in addition to talking about your music and you.

Great.

Great.

Yes.

Yeah.

So let's start with kirtan.

And you've been doing it for over 50 years.

I mean,

Since the age of what,

17 or so?

I was first introduced to it,

Yeah,

About 16 or 17.

And then I went to India when I was 19.

And yeah,

I'm 71 now.

So it's been a full life of kirtan.

For people who don't know what that word means,

It's a tradition from ancient India that I feel resonates with many indigenous cultures around the world,

A tradition of group invocation,

Group singing,

Group drumming,

Group dancing,

But specifically with the intention of calling to the divine,

Of calling forth to the divine or offering to the divine,

However one conceives of it.

In the kirtan practice,

We specifically sing mantras,

Usually very simple mantras,

Which are Sanskrit phrases,

Sanskrit words,

Sanskrit names of God and goddess.

At least in my kirtan,

I pick very simple mantras.

Sometimes the melodies are not quite that simple,

Because I love to bring the full musical element into the kirtan.

But the mantras are simple.

And we sing together.

And well,

One thing everybody knows is that singing anything kind of enlivens the heart,

The emotions.

But then repetitive singing and combined with what I have experienced to be the power of these mantras creates just a beautiful,

Beautiful,

Uplifting and inspiring experience.

And for me,

It's been a long journey.

I started quite young with it.

And every time I sing kirtan,

It reveals itself to me in a different way.

So I love the practice and I love sharing the practice.

And the science behind singing in kirtan is actually,

Alyssa,

I was looking up science of kirtan.

You Google that and Alyssa Epple's name comes up.

Really?

And Alyssa's study was looking at kirtan kriya,

Which is a little bit different.

That's a mantra that you repeat by yourself.

And you do it for like 12 minutes.

And in her study,

They found increased telomerase activity.

So activation of anti-aging of the cells and all sorts of things.

And I can link to those.

But how does a 19-year-old get into.

.

.

A 19-year-old from New York,

Is that where you grew up?

How do you get into kirtan?

Yeah,

Well,

First of all,

It was the 60s.

And I was in a school in New York.

I was an avid follower of the Beatles.

And when they went to India,

Part of my mind went with them.

But it's hard to say because I began to feel attracted to everything Indian.

Like,

When I was 14 or 15,

I went to the record stores.

We used to have record stores.

And I would find every record that had anything to do with India,

Whether it was Indian classical music,

Or whether it was Indian folk music.

There was a few albums I could find.

And I was just fascinated and drawn.

And I also heard the Hare Krishna singers when they first came to New York with their guru.

I heard them in Central Park and in Thompson Square Park.

And I wasn't drawn to join their movement.

But I was like,

Wow,

What the heck is this?

It's like they're singing this melody and these words over and over and over again.

And so I would kind of.

.

.

I mean,

I was young,

You know,

I would sit over to the side and quietly sing along with them.

And I really liked it.

So then I went to college.

I went to Reed College in Portland,

Oregon.

And the night before my very first class,

The maestro,

The great Indian classical musician,

Ali Akbar Khan,

Performed at the school.

And I had heard his music on albums,

But I was so,

So moved by the performance that I knew then and there that that's who I wanted to study with.

So I stayed in college for a couple of months and dropped out and came down to the Bay Area where he had a school.

School still exists,

Even though he died around,

I think,

12 years ago.

And I started studying there,

The classical music of India.

And well,

You know,

My life was just.

.

.

My whole musical sense was transformed by it.

I had been playing music since I was around six and first piano and then banjo was my big love,

My first real love,

And then psychedelic electric guitar.

But this this really altered me.

So then I guess it was two or three years later,

I met a yoga teacher from India and I was encouraged to go to India to see the guru of that group.

So anyway,

I didn't ever see the guru of that group,

But I did meet my guru,

Neem Kroli Baba.

And when I first came to India,

Rather home from India,

I continued my studies with Aaliyah Akbar Khan,

But I was also in some reggae bands and just a bunch of stuff.

But my home practice,

My spiritual practice,

Became singing kirtan.

So,

You know,

Kirtan is normally sung with groups,

But it is also very,

Very beautiful as a solitary practice.

It's a little different from Elissa's practice of mantra because it's sung and it's sung with emotions.

It's sung with music.

I mean,

When I'm by myself,

I'm not singing with rhythm,

But I'm elaborating the melodies a lot.

Well,

It's interesting because I also came across kirtan upon dropout.

Dropping out not from college,

But dropping out of graduate school.

And I went to graduate school at CU Boulder in Colorado.

So very lucky place to drop out of the PhD program because you're in the Mecca of lots of good stuff.

And I decided I wanted to be a yoga teacher.

And the closest yoga school was this ashram that was just a couple of miles up the hill from my house,

Eldorado Mountain Yoga Ashram.

And so I went there to learn to be a yoga teacher.

And part of the requirement of the ashram was that Monday nights you had to attend the Monday night ceremony,

Which was a big dinner and a talk and kirtan.

I didn't know what any of the Sanskrit words meant or what any of it meant.

But when I went there on Monday nights and I sat in that room,

It was medicine for my whole being.

I mean,

It's different than singing.

I mean,

There's a benefit to singing,

But also singing in Sanskrit and the repetition because you totally,

At least for me,

I got out of myself.

I was part of the group.

I didn't know what I was saying,

But then eventually when I learned what I was saying,

Then I was able to start to choose on my own that fit for me of like,

Which goddess do I need right now?

And Durga was one that I really connected with while I was there.

You have a song,

You have a chant to Durga that I listened to.

I have several.

I guess one of my favorites is on my album,

Shiva Station,

With the Pagan Love Orchestra.

It's called Jaya Jagadambe.

And then I also did a very different version of that same song on another album called Return to Shiva Station.

And then on my double kirtan album,

I have Hey Ma Durga.

I have others that I haven't recorded that I sing a lot.

I love singing to Durga.

Well,

Tell us a little bit about Durga.

And we'll play a snippet.

I'm going to play some music throughout so people can get a sense and some music from your new album.

When you're chanting to Durga,

What are you chanting to?

Well,

Durga is one of the manifestations,

One of the aspects of the Divine Mother,

The Divine Feminine.

And she rides on a lion and has many,

Many arms.

And in some imagery,

You see her with four arms,

Some with six,

Some with eight,

Some with 16.

I've even seen pictures of Durga with 32 arms.

And in each of these arms,

She holds a weapon with which she fights the demons of ignorance,

Of negative thought patterns,

Negative just everything that is in our way from loving and seeing clearly,

Seeing and loving clearly.

And a lot of times when I'm singing kirtan,

I'm actually not specifically visualizing or conceiving.

You kind of start with that.

But then as the repetition continues and continues and continues,

It's just kind of like I'm just offering my heart to that.

And that can be,

What can I say,

For each person,

That is something different.

And sometimes,

It's just a huge heart space that I'm offering myself into.

And then maybe toward the end of the chant,

Then I just come a little bit more back into the visualization.

Not the purposeful visualization,

But it just comes into my mind.

And then I'll open my eyes and I'll see this image of Durga and I'll just kind of get filled with that image again.

Jaya Jagat Ambe Durga Hey Ma Hey I've met some Indian people who are practitioners of kirtan and they've told me that when they're singing to,

Whether it's Krishna or Durga or Shiva,

The whole time in their third eye,

They try to focus an image of that deity.

But for me,

That way of doing it doesn't resonate.

It's almost like when I'm singing,

I feel like the words and the melody become a vessel for all my inner emotions and my inner feelings.

And the vessel just kind of comes out of me and and goes to spirit.

And it's such a clearing,

It's such a.

.

.

The inner churn churns ever so more deeply.

And like when you're churning butter.

.

.

Well,

There's this story,

The Vedic story about the churning of the oceans.

You know that story at all?

There was this endless,

Endless war between the gods and the demons about who is going to have dominion over the universe.

So finally,

This serpent,

Vaisuka,

I think that was his name or Vasuki,

Said,

I have a great idea.

Let's have a tug of war and I'll be your rope.

So,

You know,

The vast,

Infinite ocean of being was between two landmasses.

And one landmass was all the demons,

One landmass was all the gods,

And the serpent became the rope.

So they're tugging and they're tugging and they're tugging and they're tugging and they're tugging.

And the ocean is churning and churning and churning.

And the first thing that comes up from the bottom of the ocean is this poison that is going to destroy everybody.

You know,

It's like,

We can take it,

All the negativity of the heart comes up.

And then Shiva came to save everybody.

Shiva,

Without thought,

Drank it down.

But then Shiva thought,

Oh,

Vishnu is in my heart.

If I swallow this,

I'm going to be poisoning my Lord.

So he held it in his throat.

And from that day on,

His throat became blue.

Yeah.

But anyway,

After all the poisons came up and were eliminated by Shiva,

Then the heavenly divine jewels came up.

And then finally Lakshmi herself came up from the ocean,

The goddess of abundance,

The goddess of all good things,

The nurturing mother arose from the ocean.

So,

You know,

I feel like in a way we have that ocean in our hearts and it's always churning in life.

It's always churning.

But when we do a practice like kirtan,

The churning becomes even more intense and then stuff comes up and you offer it,

You release it.

And more often than not,

Not always,

But more often than not,

You end with a beautiful feeling of openness and clarity and happiness.

I'm not saying this as an advertisement for kirtan.

I'm just sharing my own experiences.

You know,

Deva Pramal talks a lot about the space of silence after everything stops.

And she very much recommends that when the kirtan stops,

We just sit in that space for a little bit and enjoy it.

Because that is the open expansiveness that you feel.

And it is similar for those that meditate.

They may experience that,

You know,

Something can be similar in meditation.

Maybe you begin by focusing on your breath,

But then you can expand to more of an expansive awareness.

But there is something about the sound and creating the sound and creating the sound with others that has a different energy.

Yeah,

The community that arises out of kirtan is so beautiful.

And one of the things that I love about kirtan is that everybody in a group,

Whether it's 10 people or 1000 people,

Everybody's having their own experience.

But,

You know,

Like the energy,

Energy,

One person's energy spreads to the next person,

To the next person,

To the next person.

So the group energy becomes so much more potent than the individual.

And,

You know,

I've seen it so many times that like if one person in the group begins to get really moved and starts crying,

That deep emotional catharsis,

For lack of a better word,

Spreads and people feel it.

And it's just,

You know,

It's a very,

Very beautiful group thing to do.

And then afterwards,

People are friends.

They don't even know each other,

But they're friends.

It's like singing around a campfire.

You have the campfire Sri Ram.

That I want to play.

And it is that feeling many people have experienced that community,

Maybe in a church or,

You know,

Around a campfire when they were kids singing in school.

And we long to sing in community.

It's something that many of us miss,

Especially if we're not attending churches or temples or doing that type of practice anymore.

It's lost.

It seems like it's been lost in mainstream Western,

At least,

Society.

You know,

People are,

There's singers and there's listeners.

But in more traditional,

You know,

I guess,

Earth-based societies,

Everybody sings.

Participation.

Yeah,

It's just part of it,

Part of life.

It's just part of life.

Yeah.

It's the difference between like going to a watch someone dance on a stage versus dancing with somebody.

You're going to have a different experience.

Exactly.

Than watch someone dance.

So we'll play a campfire Sri Ram,

But tell us a little bit about that recording.

Where did you record that?

How did you record that?

Well,

That song is part of an album called Let Me Burn,

Which I did right,

You know,

Deep in the pandemic.

So the recording process for that was interesting.

I mean,

The basic tracks and the main parts of the recording were done at a studio,

My friend's studio quite near here.

But even there at the studio,

Everything that was separated by plexiglass and,

You know,

It was so much caution.

And I was very,

Very cautious too.

I'm older.

I've had asthma my whole life.

So,

Gosh,

You know,

There was a lot of fear during that time,

But there was also the desire to connect with people and the desire that the social distancing wouldn't make heart distancing,

You know?

So that song,

Well,

I worked with,

For that particular one,

A producer who lives in,

I think it's on Victoria Island in BC.

So we were sending tracks back and forth to each other.

And then I asked Dave and Matam if they wanted to be part of it.

So I sent tracks down to Costa Rica where they were.

And,

You know,

We went back and forth a little bit.

Dave said it was not quite a good key for her.

So I said,

Let's want to do a harmony instead.

And,

You know,

The whole thing was a lot of back and forth.

But,

You know,

Remote,

Working with people remotely,

At first it was really strange.

And,

You know,

It's still a little bit strange.

But I think through the pandemic,

Everyone,

These people in probably our circles,

You know,

Began to see,

Well,

This is the way we're doing it now.

Maybe not forever,

But this is where we're doing it now.

And we're such good friends already.

And there was so much trust,

Both,

You know,

On the heart sense,

But also on the musical sense,

That we were able to really be in sync and create beautiful stuff together remotely.

And not just that track,

With other things that I did during the pandemic.

Because I didn't stop working in the pandemic.

And yeah,

As we were talking,

I think maybe before you pressed record,

We're still waiting for some kind of software that allows people to actually sing together and play music together in real time,

Remotely.

But that hasn't come yet.

But yeah.

I would have been a naysayer before the pandemic that it's not possible to form relationships via a screen.

And now I have so many relationships that I've formed via the screen that I feel in my heart are like true friendships,

That I feel like I know these people.

And then I also really value the in-person too.

So maybe we're just more flexible with both and,

And we can do both now.

Yeah.

Well,

We started,

You know,

I and my wife have been leading kirtan camps for twice a year for,

I guess this would be like the 21st year.

But when the pandemic came,

We had a summer camp planned.

And of course,

You know,

We couldn't do it.

So really with my wife's impetus and her inspiration,

And her confidence,

We created an online camp.

And I,

As you just said,

I was a naysayer at first.

And then I found,

You know,

That through Zoom and through this technology,

Well,

It's just our family expanded and became really close,

Not with every person,

But with those who would speak up and be present in the Zoom.

Some people were pretty shy,

And I understand that.

And that's okay.

But we didn't really feel like we got close to them,

But the ones who were less shy,

Yeah,

We made friends,

Made deep friends.

It's really awesome.

So we'll play a campfire Sri Ram with you and California,

Devaprimal and Mithit in Costa Rica and your producer in Canada.

Yeah.

It's a big campfire.

It's a big campfire.

It's a big campfire,

You're all around.

Oh,

And the trombonist was in San Francisco,

Not too far,

But still separate.

And the accordion player was in Sweden.

Beautiful.

And Sri Ram,

What are we chanting to Sri Ram?

Sri Ram.

Sri is one of the names of the goddess,

The divine mother is another name of Lakshmi,

The she who holds and nurtures us lifetime after lifetime.

And Ram is one of the names of the infinite,

All pervasive God.

There are stories about Rama and Sita,

You know,

There's a great epic called the Ramayana.

That's too much for us to get into now.

But yeah,

The feminine and the masculine principles.

Beautiful.

So we'll play that.

Sri Ram Jai Ram Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram Your new album is all in English.

And music not only is,

You know,

Is what brings us together in celebration,

Or to enjoy life,

But it's also one of the most common ways to express yourself.

And one of the main ways in which we grieve together is through music,

Playing of music.

So spiritual music like Psalm 23,

And maybe you can,

You know,

Folks that don't know the Psalm 23,

Recite some of the lines of it.

I changed it a little bit for my version.

And now in my mind,

I know my version more than the original.

Your version,

That's fine.

Yeah,

So this is one of the Psalms of David.

And,

You know,

Just to preface about this and about my album,

We read the Psalms from the Old Testament,

We read the poetry of the mystics from medieval times,

Whether it's Rumi or the many mystic poets from India.

But in reality,

These were all songs,

And they were all sung.

And,

You know,

We'll never know what King David's voice and his lyre sounded like,

You know,

His little harp sounded like.

We can't know.

Likewise,

We can't really know what ragas,

What melodies the medieval Indian poet saints were using for their songs.

But we can feel the sentiment,

You know.

And for this particular Psalm,

It's a very popular Psalm.

It's one of the most well-known spiritual devotional prayers in the world.

And it says,

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

I have no fear.

This is my slight rewriting.

Because I know you're with me,

Because I know you're with me.

And it's,

You know,

How often we are in situations where,

You know,

In a sense we do feel fear,

But we also have a trust,

I guess is the word I use more than faith.

We have a trust that the divine hand is with us.

So even though I'm saying I have no fear,

It's more like saying,

Despite my fear,

I know you're with me and that you will take care of me.

I know that I dwell in the house of the Lord.

That's why goodness and mercy are with me,

Regardless of the challenges,

Regardless of the anxieties and all the things of life.

But I trust,

Because of experience,

Because I've felt you,

I know you're here.

And to me,

That's what the Psalm says.

My close Israeli friend called it a musical,

Medicinal capsule.

And I kind of liked that image,

You know,

That the Psalm itself is a medicine.

And,

You know,

So back to the album,

All of the songs are inspired by one of these ancient songs,

By the ancient mystics,

By the ancient humans who were trying,

Endeavoring to touch spirits through their hearts and through their songs.

So,

You know,

It's part of a stream of practice,

Slightly modernized.

But yeah,

The Psalm.

Well,

Let's play it.

Okay.

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

I have no fear.

Cause I know you're with me.

Yes,

I know you're with me.

As I walk through the ruins and the wreckage of life.

I have no fear.

Cause I know you're with me.

Yes,

I know you're with me.

The Lord is my shepherd.

My sweet shepherd.

He takes me by the still waters.

He restores my soul.

I did,

On the album,

There's also another Psalm.

It's called,

You know,

On the album it's called Cover Me With Your Feathers.

Yes.

It's the 91st Psalm,

And that one is attributed to Moses.

And,

You know,

Where almost all of the Psalms in the Book of Psalms are attributed to David,

King David.

But this one is attributed to Moses,

And the story of that is,

You know,

He was traveling with all the Israelis,

All the Jewish people across the desert for 40 years.

And they were losing faith in him,

They were losing faith in God,

And he heard a voice telling him to climb up Mount Sinai,

And that God would speak to him.

So he did.

This is very different than in the movie version,

You know.

So he did,

And on top of the mountain he saw this vast cloud of,

Well just a vast cloud,

And flying in and out of the cloud were angels.

And some of the angels were angels of death,

Angels of pestilence,

Angels of plague,

And some of the angels were angels of benevolence,

Of healing,

Of spiritual enlightenment.

And he got terrified because he didn't know which was which,

And he didn't know where to turn.

And so he composed on the spot the 91st Psalm,

Asking God for protection and guidance,

And come to me in my sorrow,

Be my refuge,

Be my will.

And then he stepped into the cloud,

And well then,

The rest is history.

Yeah,

The cover me with your feathers,

It's such a beautiful image to bring to mind.

Cover me with your feathers,

Raise me up in your wings.

You who set your love upon me,

You to whom I sing.

Protect me from the terrors of night,

The arrows that fly by day.

The wave of fear that captures me,

Carries me away.

I heard you call my name.

I'll just say that for me,

Kirtan and these songs and spirituality and however listeners define that for themselves,

Maybe God is described in the Old Testament or the New Testament,

Or God is described in the Hindu gods,

Or God is described by nature,

Whatever their definition of God is,

There is a usefulness of having something to recite,

Something to sing,

Something to listen to,

Something to hold on to,

When all the gnarly angels are coming your way to attack you.

And for me,

It's always been like a private thing and something that I use in my own recovery from struggles with mental health,

That that's where I go,

I need to wake up in the morning and sing something that grounds me.

And you've shared a little bit about your own struggle with alcohol,

And I'm curious about the utility of songs like this for you.

Yeah,

Yes,

I am in recovery a couple of decades,

And I still attend 12-step meetings,

And it's still a big part of my life.

And the funny thing with my journey was that I've been singing Kirtan and devotional songs,

And of course exploring music and deeply studying music since I was very,

Very young.

And then as my addictions developed,

Emerged,

And took over my life,

I was still during that time singing Kirtans and singing devotional music.

And in retrospect,

I really know that everything that I was doing during that period of active addiction,

It was still completely sincere.

However,

All the other parts of my life were completely out of sync and out of integrity and out of,

Well,

You know,

The singing was my higher self and it was coming from my higher self,

And it was really a journey of self-healing.

But the rest of me was a mess,

And then finally when I went into treatment,

The funny thing was I felt like,

Okay,

I know that I want to be sober,

But I'm never going to get on a stage again because it pushed all my buttons.

Every trigger of self-criticism,

Self-doubt,

Self-loathing would come up as soon as I was on stage.

And then,

This might be more than you asked for,

But then at the end of my time in the treatment center,

They showed a movie of Robin Williams.

It was Robin Williams at Carnegie Hall,

And we're watching it,

It's super funny,

And then like maybe 10 minutes in,

He went to the edge of the stage,

Fell down into a fetal position,

And said,

This is the first time I'm doing this sober and I'm terrified.

And then he ran off the stage and he hid behind this huge prop that was on stage.

Now,

I really don't know if this was scripted or spontaneous,

But it didn't matter.

What I saw was that the answer or how to continue doing my work was honesty.

Because previously,

I was working so hard to open my channel to spirit,

Simultaneously closing the door to humans,

To humanity.

I studied a little bit of theater and they talked about creating in your mind a fourth wall to separate you from the audience.

And that's kind of what I had been doing for years and years and years.

And then I realized,

Well,

If I'm going to continue with this,

I have to take down that fourth wall.

I have to be vulnerable and honest with the audience and tell them if I'm feeling terrified,

Say it.

And well,

I discovered,

I didn't have to say it every time because I wasn't terrified every time,

But I said it a lot for the first couple of years of sobriety.

And what I found was that people just love you more.

When they see your humanity,

They just love you more.

And you feel that love and that love allows you a little bit to love yourself a little bit more.

And doesn't wipe away the fear,

But it certainly allows you to move forward regardless of it.

Because I know you're with me,

Because I know you're with me.

So,

Yeah,

I had a sobriety birthday a couple of weeks ago.

And it's really a beautiful journey.

Yeah.

Well,

I appreciate you sharing that.

I love you a little more.

We do.

And many people are caught in that sort of feeling like they have to make a choice between like the addiction is what allows me to do this thing,

Whether it's my art or my high power career or my music,

Because it just takes that edge off.

And it is so vulnerable to put yourself on a stage or to put your voice out in the world.

And so why not just bring your addiction along?

But then you will feel,

Or at least I have felt,

That if they do love me,

They're not loving all of me.

They're only loving the part of me that I can show with this thing covering up the other part.

So it is a reformulating of yourself to come out and be sober and do it sober.

Yeah.

And authentic.

And authentic.

Yeah.

I had a journey with singing.

I was very,

Very scared to be a singer.

I would never sing.

And then my Indian teacher,

Ali Akbar Khan,

Insisted that everybody who studied with him,

Whatever instrument they were studying,

Had to also study singing.

So that started my singing.

And then I got into kirtan where you're singing in a group.

And you're much less self-conscious when you're singing with a whole bunch of people.

But I never thought that I could sing in front of people.

So when that started happening,

I kind of trained myself to sing loud and strong.

Because I didn't want anybody to see the soft and weak.

And so I sang like that for many,

Many years.

And when I say now,

Meaning like,

Well,

The last couple of decades,

I'm learning slowly how to sing tremulously,

If that's the right word,

How to let whatever feeling I'm feeling express itself through my voice,

Rather than having my voice always be this strong thing.

It's much harder to sing soft and tentatively.

I say,

Well,

Tentatively is not the right word.

Tender.

It's a little more tender.

Yeah.

To express the tender,

Very vulnerable feelings and sing from that place is a lot harder,

At least for me,

Than singing loud and high and high-pitched and all that.

I'm really glad I learned to sing the loud and the high and the strong.

But it's only part of the story.

And so I'm still learning the other part of the story.

I remember one time in my vocal class with my Indian teacher,

Occasionally he would ask everybody in the class to sing by themselves and to show if they've learned the lesson.

We all got so scared when that would happen.

But anyway,

So the guy sitting next to me is a young Indian man.

He sang the song that Ali Akbar Khan was teaching,

And he sang it so beautifully,

I thought,

And so powerfully.

And Ali Akbar Khan,

His response,

He spoke,

He had a very unique way of speaking.

He said,

Too strong.

God don't like strong.

And then he went on to say that if you're singing so strong,

God doesn't think you need His help.

Of course,

It's his perspective,

But there was something so beautiful in what he was expressing.

And it really made me think,

Because I thought,

Oh,

This guy's doing great.

But it wasn't tender.

The emotions weren't sweet.

And for me,

It's wanting to sing more to the stronger parts within myself,

The durgas.

So for you,

It's the opposite.

Yeah,

It's the opposite.

Janet Stone,

I think,

Once said that durga,

She just cuts through the bull.

That's her job,

Is to cut through bull.

I'm like,

I need a bull cutter.

I need some of that in my life,

Or some of the goddesses that you also sing to.

Another favorite of mine is Radha Govinda.

And you sing the goddess of love.

And the power of these goddesses that,

For me in my life,

When I came about kirtan and this music,

I really needed more of that.

I had so much tender.

Yeah,

I understand.

Yeah.

And so we balance ourselves out with what we need.

And part of that is also your family.

And I just want to acknowledge your wife in all of this,

Because it sounds like I've listened to some interviews of you about this album.

And it sounds like she was producer.

She's like strong producer behind the scenes and creator in all sorts of things.

Many goddesses showing up in her.

So tell us a little bit about her and her role in this album.

Well,

First I'll say about her role in my life.

Okay,

Well,

That's even better.

Her name is Nubia Teixeira,

Brazilian.

And I met her in Brazil.

And,

Oh,

Gosh,

What year was it?

2000,

Maybe,

I think.

And she was the first person I had met in maybe my whole life that I wanted to be sober around.

And I had been so – I was so cynical about human love and the possibilities of human love that I figured,

You know,

There was no such thing as soulmates.

There's no such thing as happiness in human love.

So anyway,

I met her and it was like,

Oh,

My gosh,

This is my soulmate.

How the heck did that happen?

And we spent – you know,

She actually arranged – she produced some concerts for me in Brazil and arranged for my trip there.

And,

Well,

Just during the arrangements,

It took many months of emails and stuff like that.

And I was already in love with her.

And she with me.

And when I got off the plane,

We started kissing.

And I knew I didn't want to spend a day of my life away from her.

So,

Of course,

I did have to go back to America.

And my life kind of rearranged itself.

And I went to the treatment place and became a person in recovery.

And then she came up.

And she's a yoga teacher and a dancer.

And,

Well,

We got married.

And,

Wow,

For the first time in my life,

I was happy.

I never felt happy.

And then,

You know,

Also on top of that,

Coming from a very difficult family situation,

Childhood,

I never wanted to have a kid.

I was like dead set against having a kid.

And really,

You know,

The mind said,

Well,

Why would I want to bring a kid into this awful world?

But the emotion said,

I can't have a kid because I'm not worthy to be a father.

You know?

Well,

We had a kid.

And,

Oh,

God,

Everything turned technicolor.

And,

You know,

Love,

The amount of love that as a trio that we shared and still share.

I don't even have the words for it.

You know?

So,

Yeah.

But we hadn't worked on an album together.

And Nubia always comes up with these amazing ideas.

Like,

You know,

Why don't you do a concert with a female choir?

And I always say no.

But then I think about it and I do it.

And it's always great.

And,

For example,

Why don't we do an online Kirtan camp?

Because the pandemic is here.

And I said no.

But we did it.

And it was great.

So one day she was looking in a book of mystic songs by a Bengali poet from,

I think,

The 14th century.

I shouldn't say poet,

Songwriter from the 14th century.

And I was just being lazy.

I brought my guitar up to where she was sitting.

And I lay down with my head on the meditation cushion.

And I was just playing a little figure on my guitar.

And she started reading.

And then I started singing it.

And that was the beginning of the song,

Such Is My Fate.

And we said,

Wow,

This could be an amazing project.

Let's do it.

And let's make an album of originally it was going to be called Songs of the Mystics.

But we changed it to one of the titles of one of the songs,

Dust and Tears.

But we worked slowly because with the pandemic and everything was going on,

We couldn't just focus on it.

So the writing of the songs took about three years.

And I did all the music.

But we worked on the lyrics together.

And actually,

Nubia did more of the lyrics than me.

I call it a relationship upgrade because collaborating on this was just so beautiful.

And so then I was in the recording studio.

And usually,

That's just my realm.

But I was bringing the songs in progress home.

And I was playing them to Nubia for Nubia because she was integral part of this whole thing.

And she kept coming up with these what I would first think would be like out to lunch kind of ideas musically.

And then I would say,

Okay,

I'll try it.

Almost just placating,

Right?

And then I'd go back in the studio and I'd try these arrangement ideas and production ideas.

And they were all so right on.

And so then I was like,

Well,

What do you think about this?

What should we do here?

And,

You know,

It was just great.

It's great to collaborate that way with my wife.

But the story doesn't end there because all the keyboards on the album are played by my son.

Who,

Well,

When we started,

He was 16.

Then he was 17.

He's still 17 for another week or two.

But he would come in the studio.

And at first,

It was like,

Oh,

It would be great to have Ezra on this album.

It'll be simple.

Keep it low in the mix.

And then,

But,

You know,

He was just so shining and so inspired and so creative.

And his playing became really an integral part of the music.

I think there's two songs that don't have keyboards and the rest of them have keyboards and some solos and it's all him.

And so really what a beautiful family thing to do.

I was just so happy about that.

The arrows of your love pierce me night and day.

Such is my fate that the clouds give no rain.

Such is my fate that my love brings only pain.

Only pain.

I picked up on that when we first met and you started talking about your son and a different kind of energy that you had towards him and his music and his life path.

And I think I asked you,

What are your hopes for him?

And it was so different than many parents that have an 18 year old.

They're like,

I hope he gets into this school and goes here and does something big with his life.

And yours were just about love and hoping him to be an expression of who he is and giving him lots of space for that.

So it's super cool.

The upgrade of collaboration within the family is so good.

I do the same with,

You know,

About a year ago,

My husband and I started collaborating on things instead of me being off doing my thing and him being off doing his thing.

Now we're collaborating,

But we pick up our different strengths,

You know?

And then such appreciation to see your partner and their strengths.

It's so cool.

Like you just love them more seeing them do their thing.

And they add so much to your life.

And it is different than having it not be part of your family.

So I'm glad you've had that experience.

I wonder if other people have had that as an outgrowth of the pandemic,

Just because you're around your family,

We were around our families more and maybe we're working with them more.

I don't know.

I've heard stories of many parents feeling a renewed closeness with their children.

But you also hear so many stories about families falling apart during the pandemic because they couldn't stand each other.

And there's research on that.

The key central part of it is psychological flexibility.

If you can be flexible enough to see your wife and say,

She's doing something different than the way that I would do it,

I'm going to notice that urge to do it my way,

But let her go do it and be open to the possibility that I'm not seeing something that she can see.

That type of psychological flexibility then lets you get to creativity and reformulate your family dynamic.

So,

Yeah.

Nubia and I have been doing workshops together for years and years and years.

Which have been really beautiful.

And sometimes it was a bit of a negotiation of how's it going to work and stuff.

And I think that's normal.

But that was outside of the home.

So,

It's a different kind of collaboration than this home collaboration.

I think we got so much closer.

The pandemic was still.

I had just a month.

What is this?

Is this March?

I got a really bad case of COVID after leaving Blue Spirit.

Right.

I know I got a text from you and said I have COVID.

I was like,

Oh,

You're going to give it to me.

I don't know.

I didn't get it.

But,

Yeah.

I was really sick for a long time.

The other thing that happened in the pandemic was that I had back surgery.

And,

You know,

Nubia couldn't come to the hospital and be with me.

It was really rough.

So,

That even made,

You know,

I don't know.

It really made the cocoon,

Home cocoon,

Even more.

The space got even smaller.

And yet,

Through that,

Our house is even quite small.

Through that,

I don't know.

It was so good.

I mean,

It was hard.

Yeah.

There were times that I was claustrophobic out of my brain.

There were times when the walls were closing in.

But it really wasn't that Nubia was closing in.

It wasn't that.

It was just that I couldn't go out.

And,

You know,

Healing from the back surgery made me not able to go for even long walks and stuff.

But we gradually started walking more and more and more and more in nature.

I don't know.

It's quite an experience.

And I don't,

Although the world says the pandemic is over,

You know,

Just having recovered from COVID,

It's hard for me to think of it as being over.

But.

Yeah,

There's many different versions of pandemic.

Now we're in our atmospheric rainstorms.

And what else is coming,

We don't know.

So we got to get ourselves having some roots in things,

You know,

Our relationships with our family members,

Our practices that we return to for decades,

The same darn chant that I've been doing.

I don't have like a big repertoire like you do,

Chai.

I have like the three I learned.

Well,

You know,

I have a big repertoire,

But at home,

90% of the time I'm singing one mantra.

What are you singing?

Shreedam,

Jayadam,

Jayajayadam.

You know,

I sing it with a million different melodies,

But it's kind of my home base,

You know.

And when I'm out singing with other people,

I,

You know,

People like varieties.

Yeah.

Give me something else.

And it's not to say I don't love singing the other kirtans because I do,

But my home base is Shreedam,

Jayadam,

Jayajayadam.

Yeah.

Well,

We'll go out on your home base.

We'll play that as our last song.

But I want to say that your album,

You can get a CD and you can get it now on vinyl,

Which the audio is so much better.

And all songs signed by me.

Because we're only selling them through my website.

That's it.

So the website is just Jayadam.

Com,

And you'll see a little thing that says get CDs,

And they'll all be personally signed by me.

And,

Yeah,

It's my first album.

You know,

I've made so many albums,

But it's the first time I've done it in vinyl.

And for me,

I always love vinyl so much.

And we have a turntable and we listen.

And,

You know,

Also this guy on the cover,

My dear friend in New York,

A man named Giuliano,

Italian artist,

Just did this for,

You know,

We talked about what could be the cover.

And I said,

You know,

Some singing saint from the Himalayas and his thought about it.

And we looked at some photos together of just different sadhus and stuff.

And he came up with this guy.

And Dustin Tears' Baba.

He's so alive.

And you can really see it with the vinyl.

Yeah.

No,

It's awesome.

We have a turntable in our playroom,

And it's great,

Actually,

For kids.

If you have little ones,

They'll be careful with your album.

Yes.

But they can put them on themselves,

You know?

And it's really sweet.

They understand how the music works by watching it go around.

And it's a wonderful thing for children.

So we actually got our old,

Their great-grandpa's player out when they were little so they could put their own vinyls on.

That's so cool.

It would be good to add a little more current music.

We didn't get our turntable until Ezra was a little bit older.

But I love what you're saying because,

You know,

With streaming and stuff,

Where is this music coming from?

Well,

Okay,

It's coming from my phone.

But on our turntable,

You can actually see it.

Yeah,

I wish we had thought of that when he was younger.

Yeah,

It's really fun for kids.

So,

Yeah,

Get yourself a turntable and get this album,

And I'll put a link to all of the songs that we played,

All the songs we mentioned in the albums there,

And the links will all go to your website so people can buy them.

Okay,

Great.

As well.

Thank you,

Jai.

Thank you so much,

Diana.

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Your Life in Process.

When you enter your life in process,

When you become psychologically flexible,

You become free.

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody,

Please leave a review over at Podchaser.

Com.

And if you have any questions,

You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776 or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at yourlifeinprocess.

Com.

I want to thank my team,

Craig,

Ashley Hyatt,

And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell & Branch for his original music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Sitaram,

Jai sitaram