Knowing And What’s Being Known | 5/28/24 Mindful Q&A #21

Hey,

Wholeness,

Welcome.

This is Josh.

And today I have Wendy Nash with me back again for our 21st,

I think it is,

Installment of Meditation Q&A.

Wendy,

What's going on?

Ah,

You know,

I was thinking before I came on air,

I have all this stuff to do for my community group and this and that,

And I can feel this huge pressure and I just thought,

You know what?

I'm going to push my husband.

What he does is he has this thing where he doesn't get ruffled by the time.

And so he just kind of pushes it out.

It's really a different way of experience.

And he says,

No,

I'm going at my time.

I like it.

I love that.

And I just thought,

Yeah,

Because I have this fictional time in my mind and that's,

So I've got to get it done,

But I've got to get it done.

But who,

Like,

It's my stuff.

I have control over it.

I don't have to do it.

So I decided,

No,

I'm not going to do all those things.

I'm not going to fret.

I'm not going to frazzle.

I'm going to do what I want to do,

Which is still stuff that I want to get done.

But instead of it feeling like,

I've got to run out,

There's a sense of desperation or something.

So I am here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland on Caboolture,

Just north of Brisbane.

So that's how I am.

We,

You know,

We've talked about this notion of time in our past shows.

And I also talked about,

There's a difference between being in a hurry and going fast.

And what you're talking about is,

Yeah,

Working on projects,

Too.

There are hard,

Fast deadlines sometimes that need to be met,

Right?

But other than that,

A lot of it is in our own minds,

I feel,

About how we perceive that and if we're going to get anxious and in a hurry,

Flustered by it.

You know,

One of the teachers I have,

Well,

Online,

I haven't really met the guy,

Gil Fronsdale,

He says when a lot of this stuff happens,

When he doesn't think he has enough time,

He just takes like 10 minutes to meditate and then doors open up and can't,

It just seems like more time,

You know,

Sometimes.

So yeah,

How we perceive it is a really big deal.

The self-talk we talk to ourselves and yeah,

A lot of the pressure just makes it worse,

Right?

So yeah,

Hopefully at least for the time we have allotted here,

We can kind of move at a different pace and maybe set things.

Sometimes the nagging thing in the back of the mind,

Oh,

Well,

I can be calm now,

But then I still got to get all this stuff.

So it is an ongoing practice in training these perceptions we have around.

And of course,

That old folk thing about the amount of work expands to the time we have allotted for it.

Meaning that,

You know,

If we only have 30 minutes to complete a particular task,

A lot of times it will take the full 30 minutes,

Right?

So.

.

.

You know,

I think that one of the deals is really just that I actually,

This sense of time that we have,

I'm just setting up all the tech here on the left-hand side.

So one of the things is really just that we are doing everything on our own,

Whereas it's sort of the first time ever in history that we've been so solitary in the way that we do things.

And I think it.

.

.

You were talking about how we have to.

.

.

These days we do things kind of alone and in a solitary manner a lot of times.

Yeah,

Meditation,

That's.

.

.

Even that is a solitary pursuit now.

You know,

We do that on our own or with an app or on our own time.

And there is a different energy that arises when you do it in the company of somebody else.

We've spoken about this before.

And we have a guy who lives downstairs and he.

.

.

When he's here,

There is.

.

.

His energy comes up into the house.

He's not.

.

.

He's,

You know,

Not in a bad way,

But just his energy is here in the house.

And when he goes,

It goes,

Oh,

He's gone,

His energy has gone.

And I think there is this.

.

.

I think what is very clear at the moment is this sense of,

I am alone in this task and it makes it a lonely task.

And yes,

I can do it really more efficiently,

But am I doing it effectively?

Is it a pleasant experience?

So I was mopping the floor and I was thinking,

Why is this not seen as exercise?

I mean,

I know that sometimes people call that moving meditation.

I mean,

You could call it moving meditation,

But I have this aggression with the mop.

You know,

It should be mopping itself or something.

And why is that that thing is seen as exercise,

Not seen as exercise?

Like why?

It's movement.

It's walking.

It's not sort of very different to maybe,

You know,

Doing light exercise at the gym.

What do you think?

Well,

You know,

The male mind wants to come in here and try to fix things,

Wendy,

Right?

So it is.

I've struggled with this and I think we all have,

You know,

These daily chores and things that we have about it just being,

I don't want to do this.

I know I need to do it,

But it's just,

It's too much of a chore.

I've got so many other things to do.

What I found too,

Though,

Is sometimes I had felt like almost entitled,

Like I'm too good for this.

Somebody else should be doing this.

You know,

I'm above this,

You know,

This type of thing.

So there's all kinds of different strategies I've used.

One,

We're speaking about having other people,

Being involved with other people and not doing things alone all the time.

You know,

One of the best,

If there's someone else in the household that will do that,

And then I offer to do something else that I,

You know,

That's maybe a chore,

But I actually don't mind doing it,

You know?

The other thing,

Like Wendy said,

Is a moving meditation.

This is,

I mean,

It's a little bit easier in monasteries where you just,

You have to do your chores,

Otherwise you can't really be there.

That's just part of the agreement,

But then it can see more of a moving meditation.

It depends how much of a meditation you want to make it,

But you can be mindful of every time,

You know,

One limb extends and one limb's back,

You can give self extra time and actually move it into a meditation.

Yeah,

You can do a fun exercise like that,

You know?

And then you can also just be in my crap.

I can be in my crap while I do it and just see how,

Okay,

Is there a choice here?

Am I choosing to feel like crap and not want to do it?

And does that make it better or worse?

And is there a time when I can say,

Okay,

How can I do this differently?

Can I choose to be in a different mind state?

Or watch the mind,

How is the mind doing this?

How is the hardened mind while I'm doing this,

You know?

How would it be if I didn't do this and didn't do this for ages and ages and ages?

How would I feel?

We talk about other people's energy,

Noticing it.

Yeah,

And that's a tough one too,

Because when we're around people's energy who we love,

It's a great support,

It's a pleasure,

It's beneficial,

But we're around people who,

You know,

Makes us clinch and tight,

Kind of takes energy.

You know,

It's not helpful,

But if we're in living situations where it's really not possible to just go to the landlord and say,

Hey,

Could you kick this guy out?

Because,

You know,

His energy is just not vibing real high right now.

So,

You know,

All these things,

There's so much in life that we can do.

It could be endless micromanagement too,

But we can go to the other extreme where,

Oh,

Just everything's good,

Everything's fine,

And,

You know,

Zone out.

Yeah,

There is so much here.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Pleasing,

So then if we are living with someone,

We can not just do it for ourselves and we can do it for another too.

That's another easy way out of this,

I think,

In a way,

Because living alone,

It's way tougher.

It was way tougher for me,

But if I know I'm contributing to someone else other than myself,

It makes my heart leap up a little more.

We're communitarian beings,

Actually,

And this current solitary life is,

I think,

You know,

I do a lot about community,

Transportation,

And one of the big conversations that,

Now,

We're supposed to be doing the knower and the knowing.

Yes,

We'll get to the proper intro in just a bit.

We will get there.

But I often think about this thing where,

Before,

People had to live with their relatives,

Or they had to live in their community,

They had to do all that sort of stuff.

And then,

And so people are like,

Ah,

We've got our own space.

We can create our own home.

And,

You know,

It's not like anybody had a gun to their head in the 1940s and 50s and 60s to say,

Go and live in the suburbs.

Everyone was like,

Finally,

I get freedom.

I get to go wherever I want.

I get this car,

This big car.

I get this house.

I get to do all this stuff.

Now,

For women,

There was actually a lot of drudgery.

It created this awful,

Solitary,

Lonely life.

And there was a huge amount of,

A huge number of women who were taking tranquilizers,

Valium,

It was just huge.

And that was a big problem.

So it was sort of good for the men in many ways,

But awful for the women.

And not every family is nice.

So there's no doubt that getting out of really horrible family systems is one of the great things about our times,

You know.

I certainly don't have contact with my family and I think that's fab.

So,

But I think it is,

But I look at Aboriginal communities,

First Nations communities,

They lived in a communitarian system for 65,

000 years.

That's a long time.

We're not even gonna make it.

So I think England and Europe was basically inhabited for 6,

500 years.

So you can,

And we're not able to do it,

You know,

Where it's all falling apart.

So whatever they're doing is clearly working and what we're doing isn't working.

And so I think going to the knower and the knowing,

There is this idea,

If I just leave behind the things that are painful and difficult,

The relationships that are complex,

And I instead go to this other place where those people aren't there,

I will be free of that.

And there is some truth to it,

But maybe it's the actual system and the way that we relate.

So in Aboriginal families,

My understanding systems,

Communities,

My understanding,

Very limited,

Is that they see everybody as being connected to them.

And so they have obligations through the connection,

Not only responsibilities to caring for the community and each other,

Caring for country,

But they also have a responsibility to the quality of the relationship.

So if you,

They have different tiers of types of,

Types of ways of interacting with different types of people in the community.

You have joking people,

You have close people,

You have people who you have to,

You know,

Respond to,

You know,

The elders,

You don't argue with them.

They say,

Do that,

That's what you do.

You can't negotiate that one,

Actually.

And whereas we are always looking for how we're different.

I'm not like them,

I'm different.

So these are all separating ones.

And I think this idea that we can somehow leave our internal pain behind somewhere else and hook it onto the other person,

The object who is difficult,

I think that is that.

And I think that is the,

I know what's going to be the right thing.

And I think this ties in with this Noah.

I know what I should do.

I know what you should do.

And it is that,

What did you call it before?

The male thing,

I'm going to fix this.

There you go.

These are all great things here,

Wendy.

I will say that it really depends,

You know,

Of course,

The one thing that's most obvious is we can't,

I think very few of us can escape some sort of community the rest of our lives,

Right?

Even if we go live as a hermit in the wilderness,

We're still in community with nature,

You know,

The plants and the birds and the rocks and those people,

You know,

It's going to be hard to find places on earth where we're not going to have human interactions anymore.

You know,

So that's kind of the extreme.

They're still going to have to have food source sometime,

More than likely,

Right?

So we're going to have to interact and we don't live in a vacuum.

We are interconnected,

You know,

We're mutually dependent on so many things.

I don't exist in a vacuum.

With that said,

I think there's a lot of causes and conditions with folks,

You know,

There are some people who work really well in social situations.

And in fact,

They're terrified of getting out of a community or social situations because they don't know,

That's their comfort zone.

And so just to maybe play devil's advocate a little bit,

You know,

They don't know how to be on their own.

You know,

There's absolutely kind of out of place,

Like a fish out of water.

So they've become dependent on that.

There's other people that I think that are the opposite too,

Where they are such loners that they're trying to avoid,

You know,

Community and social situations because it terrifies them and they can't do really well in them.

And so they have yet to master these situations.

They haven't mastered community life in social settings at all.

And well,

Maybe very few of us have,

But I think it comes down to balance as well.

You know,

If we can,

I think we need socialization time and community time,

And we also need alone time as well.

And some of us might be weighted where we need it more than the other,

Right?

It's gonna be hard to kind of go within on deep,

Deep levels if no one else around us values that,

Right?

On the other hand,

If that's all we do the rest of our lives,

You know,

Is that deep wisdom and insight we're gathering,

You know,

Is that gonna be our best use of our skillset then you know,

If all we do is keep to ourselves.

So I think it's not quite a simple cut and dry answer.

I mean,

We have improvements to do on both social life and kind of more alone time,

You know,

Where's our comfort zone?

Maybe it's not existent.

Maybe we do need a comfort zone.

How are we in communities?

How are we outside of communities?

You know,

Where are strengths?

Where are the weaknesses?

You know,

What leads to more harmony?

And what's the best thing for my long-term benefit in the long-term benefit of others?

Sometimes it might be more alone time or working in small teams.

Sometimes it needs to be in community for me to have more benefit and more benefit of others.

But at the very least we can say,

Yes,

How do we interact when we need to interact with folks and live around folks in community,

Whether it be more of a need or more of a want perhaps.

So,

And as far as transitioning to the knower and the known,

I was thinking about this too,

Because what I meant by this context is switching kind of here into more meditation practice.

We can also say this as seeing in what's being seen,

Observing in what's being observed.

For more visual people,

For more auditory people,

It can be listening in what's being listened to,

You know,

Noticing in what's being noticed.

So where this comes from,

I can't even remember where this comes from.

I think it was a meditation teacher or a few who have just kind of boiled down experience into the most simplest of forms here and to just this,

I guess it's a duality dichotomy of just the object of meditation and what's observing,

Seeing,

Knowing,

Listening,

Distinguishing that object.

And so if we can think of all the different situations we've been in in life,

A lot of times it can just be boiled down to those two things.

We can just say seeing in what's being seen,

Knowing in what's being known.

And I think you can backtrack there to what I said,

And then we can look at this in a meditative context too,

And then maybe we can take that off the cushion too.

I know you're approaching it a little bit differently.

I guess I was doing it more literally when I set this up,

But yeah,

How do you feel about that as a meditation practice or as moving through the world as a simplification?

Well,

First up,

You use the term the devil's advocate,

And I'm never sure the devil needs any advocacy at all.

I am personally of the opinion that when one is advocating for the devil,

I'm not feeling it's a good thing.

Do you know what I mean?

It's a weird English term,

Isn't it?

Yes.

I want a better term for it because absolutely,

I do not advocate any evil doing whatsoever.

It's one of these weird English terms that's not very straightforward and helpful.

It comes from the,

It's a Catholic term,

So they had a lot of beatification and people wanting to be saints,

And then,

Well,

How do we measure that?

And so it became this pontification,

The pontiffs,

Pontification.

And the thing about pontification,

Which is about being a knower,

Pontificating,

Is that it is this idea of being above and looking down.

And I think the devil's advocate role is often being above and looking down,

And not helpful,

Actually.

It's not like,

Oh,

If I were in your position,

This is what I would do.

It's I'm above looking down,

And I'm going to cut down what you already have,

And I'm going to do that.

So just on the devil's advocate.

Very good points,

Wendy.

Thank you so much for that.

The other thing I thought about is,

So when we're on the cushion and we are,

I think what you touched into there were a range of issues about being solitary,

Being independent,

Being interdependent,

Being isolated,

Feeling isolated,

Feeling separated,

Feeling,

And as you say,

Needing time,

Having that sense of the need to be on your own.

And I guess that's so far from where we are at the moment that we need to be on our own to restore.

I think we are actually very poor at relating to ourselves and therefore relating to others.

And when we don't know how to relate to ourselves,

It's very hard to know how to relate to others.

And the idea,

So I use the term,

The knower,

Because it was Elizabeth Matus Namgyal,

Who is a Tibetan teacher in the Western Tibetan traditions,

Very senior.

And she says,

I don't like myself when I'm a knower.

And so I was thinking of it in that context.

So here we are,

We've got a word,

You're coming from one,

I'm coming from the other.

And it's true that when we come from this knower,

Devil's advocate,

Pontificating kind of role,

Then it's,

We are not in connection with,

We are separate from.

And that I think is the,

Really the challenge for us in meditation is how do we connect with ourselves?

So before you were talking and I was sort of moving my things around,

You had so much rich stuff and I realized I wanted to take some notes and I was looking away and I was doing some stuff.

And I thought I was fully listening and everything,

But I,

Of course I was mildly distracted and in that sense of felt separation and I'm sure that you felt,

Where's she gone?

So,

But these sort of micro separations,

Or we get the phone and with these micro separations where just for a second,

We move away from,

Our attention is moving away.

And in that moment we are disconnected.

So when our attention,

And so,

I don't know,

Where am I going with this?

There is this sense of knowing,

Being known and being a knower.

And,

You know,

I was talking with somebody the other day and he was a knower.

I was talking about a bike path and all the rest and he said,

Oh,

They won't do this because of that.

And I thought,

You don't know anything actually,

But you're just shutting down the conversation because you think that's the way to,

Show,

You think that that is the way to show your separation actually.

The thing about being not known,

Being unknown,

Being unknowing is actually connection and I hadn't thought about that.

You know,

I think last time we spoke,

I had just come off retreat and I,

And there was an interaction that I had,

A conversation with the teacher at the front of the class where I felt this sense of,

I actually felt the not knowing and its intimacy.

And when we are a knower,

When we know what things are,

We shut down the world.

When we know what's,

I know what's going on for me,

It's like this.

I know what's going on for them.

I know what they're like.

Then we have shut down the softness of life and there is this intimacy that arises with unknowing.

What do you think?

This is where it needs clarification,

I feel,

Yes.

Because what I feel you're speaking of is identity,

Right?

What we're identifying with.

Heaven knows,

Or Buddha knows,

Whatever you want to say,

That for such a long time,

And there's plenty of it,

I identify with knowing,

Knowledge,

You know?

And it is so liberating to be okay with not knowing,

You know,

In Zen they talk about don't know mind.

Keep saying don't know,

Don't know,

Don't know everything.

And it is,

It's liberating.

In this context,

Maybe I should have titled this something different than that,

Because this is a huge thing.

And what I feel you're talking,

Wendy,

Goes more about our identity,

About me as this construct of Josh,

And I'm identifying as a knower.

That's who I am.

I know something and everything else is what I'm knowing.

Okay,

I didn't necessarily mean it like that.

So that does require a lot more clarification.

So why don't we change the language to seeing and what's being seen or observing,

Right?

Because I don't walk around saying,

Oh,

I'm such a great observer.

You know,

I'm the observer,

Which is funny where fiance and I are re-watching Fringe,

This TV show that we were both kind of watched a lot of when it was first aired.

And there's this guy,

Bald head guy,

That he's known as the observer.

He shows,

Anyway,

I won't go into that.

You guys can,

It's actually free to watch on Freeverse or something with ads now,

So.

But the observer and what's being observed.

So I was meaning more in a strictly meditative context.

And this is the other thing I wanna talk about is connection,

You mentioned connection and not being present and connected and being attentive.

And then we lose track and then we're not connected to whatever we're doing.

And so that's what's so great about a formal meditation practice.

I know some people have so many different types.

What I've been doing lately is the kind of just the more traditional object meditation,

Right?

Just knowing the object.

When the object,

When you lose track of the object,

Come back.

What this does,

It does train attention.

So then we can,

When we're in our everyday lives,

We can pay deeper and more,

I think,

Clear and more profound,

More broad,

More present connection that we can really be there with something for longer and longer periods of time.

This is a very special thing and it takes training to develop this muscle.

And this is where I think kind of an objectification or a meditation object in this practice of coming back over and over again to one thing.

I mean,

It is ultimately in service to knowing deeper and deeper levels of reality in order to realize the end of suffering,

To realize awakening and to be free.

And that's,

It builds this muscle so where we can point it at different aspects and investigate them and see things systematically or whatever.

So that's where it's helpful to choose an object to keep coming back and over to it.

But what Wendy's saying is,

Yes,

When we start identifying as a knower and Mr.

Know-it-all,

And I know everything and you don't,

And I'm a devil's advocate tearing you down and yada,

Yada,

Yada,

Yada,

Right?

That's not what I mean by this here.

And so it's easily confused in that way.

And I wonder though,

If one does overly look at it as a knower and what's being known,

If it can actually strengthen the conditioning of this,

Of me being,

I'm Mr.

Know-it-all,

I know everything,

Right?

So we can just look at it as observing and what's being observed because that takes an emotional charge out.

It doesn't build a stronger self.

And that's the last thing I wanted to say around this is,

Yes,

I'm not,

We're looking at like a healthy sense of self because as we know,

Self is kind of a construct,

Right?

There is no,

What is Josh?

What is that?

Is it the body?

Is it the thoughts?

Is it the feelings?

Is it how things are perceived?

Is it the consciousness?

Oh,

I would say one other thing though,

I misspoke there.

It does,

This observing and what's being observed,

It does lend to a duality,

And these people that are the non-dual people out there.

I need to talk to more non-dual people because I see it as helpful,

But then I also,

I've talked to,

Actually,

I've talked to some of these people and it's great in a really spiritual context,

But when they get into,

Not they,

When it comes to everyday life,

How do we apply non-duality to go and get in the groceries and,

Oh,

How are you doing today,

Sir?

There is no me,

There's nothing,

There's only awareness.

There's no separation,

It's only awareness.

There are no objects.

So it just,

Okay,

So I said enough there,

Wendy.

I'm sure you can pick this up.

So,

Yeah,

So the knower,

The seer,

And the seen,

And the seeing,

The giver,

The givey,

And the gift.

And where does one end and the other one start?

You know,

I did a talk many years,

I didn't give a talk,

I attended a talk,

And it was a very senior teacher and he said,

See that,

It was in a monastery,

Not in a monastery,

In a meditation place,

And there was a big statue of the Buddha there.

And so,

Okay,

Look at that Buddha.

Does that Buddha cause your feelings?

Do you know this one,

Josh?

I might continue,

Please,

Though.

So,

All right,

So find something around you in your space where you are now and find something that is attractive.

Okay,

So just look around,

Have you got something?

Yeah,

Okay.

So does that object cause your feelings?

That would be really weird if it did.

So what do you mean by that?

I would say if a fern is making all my feelings happen,

That's a little bit,

I don't know,

That would be like some kind of alien planet if a fern was responsible for how all the rich,

The depth and breadth of human feelings experienced by this,

That would be a little bit weird.

So when I ask this to people now and I inquire into this,

They go,

Oh yeah,

The vase or whatever it is that they have in their house,

That yeah,

It causes my feelings,

You know,

It makes me,

I look at it and it looks beautiful.

Or sometimes I did this the other day with a friend and I said,

Okay,

So you buy a dress or whatever and does that dress cause your feelings?

And she said,

Yeah,

I put it on and I feel great and everything like that.

And I said,

Okay,

So then,

You know,

A year later,

It's not so fashionable and whatever,

Does that dress cause your feelings?

Does it still make you feel so?

It's not about the object and yes,

There is something about wearing a dress or a piece of clothing that gives you that,

Sort of you imbue it with this sense of,

It makes it,

You know,

There's something about wearing it that makes you feel great,

You know?

I think I might feel completely different if I tried on that dress,

Same dress,

Wendy.

Yeah,

Exactly,

Exactly,

Exactly,

Exactly.

So,

But for her,

And then you,

Or you might buy a car and it's the brand new car and you're super happy with it.

And then,

You know,

It's a car's a car and then a week later,

It's,

Or you go,

Oh,

Look at all those people who've got that car.

I don't want that car anymore,

I want what they've got.

And it's the same object,

What,

It's a week later and really,

You know,

Is it that,

And I think this is a really good exploration of the knower or the observer,

The observed and the observing that process or the sensor,

The sensee and the sensing.

That process is very,

Very interesting and as an inquiry,

Yeah.

Now we've got it,

Yes.

And I mean,

We can think about it cognitively but we can see in a formal meditation practice,

This is going on,

Just choose a meditation object like the breath.

There's what's being known,

That's the breath,

You know,

Either the pushing,

You know,

The pressure,

The movement,

The expansion,

The lightness,

The coolness,

You know,

The heat,

All these different things that are being known and then there's what's knowing that,

You know?

And I like how you add kind of a third thing,

The process and that's the knowing,

You know?

And some people that do awareness practices,

They,

Instead of looking at the object,

Like we're all trained to do throughout our lives,

Even in meditation,

This is how we really relate to the world.

However,

There is a possibility to turn that camera around and look at what's knowing that,

You know?

What's,

I'm sorry,

Observing that,

What's sensing that,

Beautiful way to look at it too,

You know,

What's actually seeing that?

And so the metaphor that I commonly give,

It's like a movie,

You know,

Usually we're just completely engrossed in what's ever going on on the screen but we take a step back and like,

Wait a second,

I'm in a movie theater,

That's a screen,

There's an image being projected,

Where's that image coming from?

And look behind,

There's a light and a projector and turning around and looking at that light projecting and so in a way,

That's kind of like the light of consciousness or awareness,

What's actually knowing what's being known,

What's actually observing what's being observed,

What's actually sensing what's being sensed and that's a whole different type of meditation to turn back around and look towards the source of that instead of an object.

So I know somebody and that is his practice and it's very interesting and I've spoken about him before,

He's a kind of,

He's a relative of mine and he did that and he was encouraging me to do that and I did that and I realized that,

Oh yeah,

You have the judge,

So sort of the judging mind and then the judged person,

The judged mind and then the judging,

You know,

And I looked at it and I was like,

Yeah,

But it doesn't resolve the underlying emotional stuff that created the judge in the first place.

So I'm always,

I've seen too much stuff go wrong in this space when people do that and they haven't worked through their emotional stuff.

I couldn't agree more,

Yes,

You know,

And this is,

It's just another tool,

Right?

That's another wonderment I have about the non-dual things is because they think,

Oh,

It doesn't take any effort,

Any work,

It's just a realization that all my problems are solved but it turns out when you,

I shouldn't,

I don't know if it's proper to say but some of the people and interact with them,

You know,

There's,

It seems like there's still quite a bit of unresolved things that they have now just,

Oh,

It doesn't matter,

You know,

Not,

I don't know if that's right to say either,

It doesn't matter but there's,

It's almost like an easy way out but to me,

It's kind of another tool set.

It's amazing to be aware of awareness,

You know,

To know,

Because it's so expansive and another great thing about it is what's being aware of something,

It can't be purified nor can it be defiled because its sole purpose is just to be aware,

To observe,

You know,

But at the end of the day,

It's,

It seems,

At least until a lot of,

We feel like we're in a better space,

No,

I don't know if it's,

But yeah,

On a mundane,

Everyday level,

It's not a panacea,

I don't feel.

Maybe I'm wrong,

I invite people to chime in and say,

You know,

Hey,

Wait a second,

This is,

You're missing this,

This and this,

Please,

You know,

Chime in here and let us know that this is the end all be all and not just another toolbox.

I get it,

It's,

Some people do have like full realizations and then they just,

This wisdom can just spring up and they just know how to interact and be involved in what action and speech to say in any given moment and can use that to kind of break blockages,

Dissolve things,

You know,

Bring things together.

That's not necessarily what I mean.

These are kind of more rare beings who can live every day in things like that,

In spaces like this and master their everyday lives too.

So,

Yeah.

Yeah,

So I think there was something there that I wanted to cover and I'm just sitting there going,

What was it that you were talking about?

So the,

There is,

I think when you use it as an escape from seeing,

From being with it,

What Pema,

This is what I was going to say,

Pema Chodron in the Western Tibetan tradition,

She says,

Yeah,

So how are your relationships going?

And I think that is the marker and this particular person who is,

You know,

I think he has great insights and stuff and I actually texted him and I said,

So what are you not seeing about?

Because he said,

You know,

Have the sense that you don't think I'm X,

Y,

Z and this is,

You know,

Dah,

Dah,

Dah.

And he was going,

Well,

What's going on here in the relationship?

Because I don't feel it's working.

This is my sense of what you think.

And I said,

Yep,

That is exactly what I think.

So then I inquired and I said,

What are you not seeing about your state of mind?

What are you not seeing about what's going on for you?

And he just raged at me and I'm going,

Yeah,

Right.

So what are your relationships like?

And then the next couple of days,

He said,

Emotions.

And,

But after that,

I thought,

Okay,

That's great.

You've got two emotions and you do that.

But I didn't,

He got to the point of acknowledging that he had his emotion,

He had been blind to his emotional landscape actually.

And often in that space,

He'll go spiraling down and it'll sort of become this big inquiry for him.

But I haven't heard from him and that is months and months and months ago.

And I feel that loss because I think there's so much but sort of opportunity that could be realized.

And I think the marker of where you're at in life is what's happening in your relationships.

That to me is the marker.

You can be as enlightened as you like or get that clarity as you want,

But if your relationships are no good,

You're not as clear as you think.

It's actually,

As Eckhart Tolle says,

The ego is coming in through the back door.

This is brilliant,

Absolutely.

Everything is pretty much relationship,

Even when we're not with other people,

It's a relationship to our heart,

Our mind,

Our thoughts,

Our feelings,

Everything.

And even the historical Buddha is known as,

When Ananda came and you probably all heard this,

It's this,

Oh,

I think the spiritual friendship is such and such as the path.

And he goes,

Maybe half the path or whatever.

And he said,

No,

Don't say that Ananda,

Don't say that Ananda,

Spiritual friendship is the entirety of the path.

And what I take this to mean too is expanded is that's relationship.

In that context,

That monastic context,

They were spiritual friendships and that,

But how are we relating or how are we kind of seeking out to those who are good for us?

And this is another thing that I find so brilliant is the Four Noble Truths,

Suffering and the end of suffering.

I mean,

Is it leading a way of suffering or is it leading towards more suffering?

And this is how we test that is in our relationships.

Are the relationships leading away from suffering or are they causing more suffering?

How we're relating,

How we're perceiving and how we're reacting,

Responding in our relationships,

Absolutely.

So I can,

I see the kind of the non-dual things as a kind of a relief from all the kind of crap of life.

I think it's a great break,

A bigger,

Greater perspective on things,

And little things that are trying and troubling and nickel and diming,

It gets some distance,

Kind of can go through,

Can transcend some of them,

Can allow us maybe to be with them without getting flustered as much.

But at the same time,

How much of a disconnect does it cause with our kind of relative reality where other people are at?

Not everybody is in that space,

But you're still gonna have to interact with them.

How is that going to lead towards my welfare and being and the welfare and happiness of them and everybody?

So is it helping that or is it taking away from that?

And I would say it's not a simple yes or no.

I'd say in some instances,

Yeah,

It will help with that.

Some instances,

Maybe not so much.

But then it seems like there's some kind of gridlock.

Well,

If you say that,

That's dualistic,

And that's not how it is.

Well,

I mean,

Another thing I like to say is if you think that nothing exists,

Everything's an illusion,

Go run into that tree at full speed and tell me that it doesn't exist,

You know?

So I know we can philosophize and things like this.

We can say,

Well,

That's relative reality.

Maybe there's a more ultimate reality.

At the end of the day though,

It's empiricism.

How does it relate?

How does it help in one's everyday life?

Is it helpful or is it not?

So I think sometimes it's very helpful.

Sometimes it's not so much.

Yeah,

And there was something in there that you said,

The non-dual is a kind of relief in the world.

And I wondered if that was,

You had kind of wandered into that space where in the non-dual,

I am not in the suffering space.

And I wondered whether that was also,

Actually,

How am I saying?

Maybe you too were in that delusion that suffering doesn't occur.

Everything is,

We are skim over,

Spiritual bypassing if we just go into the non-dual world.

And there is certainly a lot of desire for that because there is an idea that non-dualism is somehow a superior way of being.

And so those of us who have these deep wounds,

And that's a lot of people who come into this path,

Want to be seen as a good person because we were told we were so bad all the time.

And so this is the right way to be good.

And we are non-dual and I've fallen for it.

You know,

There's no two ways about that.

And it is an inquiry always to go,

That's why I find relationships so good.

And going back to the relationship.

So what I was,

The very beginning I talked about in First Nations communities,

They're very focused on how we connected with everybody.

And I would imagine,

And I don't know,

So I'm not putting myself that I know these communities at all,

But I would imagine there are ways of seeing that you are influenced.

And if you come up to an edge where you won't be influenced,

Then you have to go to the elders in the community and the elders sit there and go,

Well,

Let's have a bit of a talk around that.

And then this is how it is.

So I think the key thing in relationships within human beings is how influenceable are you?

And how willing are you to yield and bend to the other person's wish?

And if you have a knower,

They are not able to yield to the other person's wish.

So I,

In my community group that I have about transportation I meet all sorts of different people.

And some people are very passive and some people are the knower,

Like these know what Elizabeth Namatis Namgyel calls a knower,

Like this fellow the other day.

And sometimes they're politicians.

And so we had a big function the other day,

State minister came,

So that was police minister,

Very senior man.

And he says,

We're doing this and we're doing that and we're great and we've got this happening and that happening.

And that's in the interpersonal style,

Easier to manage than the knower who says,

Oh,

You need to do this and you need to do that and this will happen and they'll say no and all the rest.

But at another level,

It's harder because they're all smoke and mirrors and it's a wily space and it's very fickle.

So is there any influenceability?

And the answer is in both of those cases,

Well,

That's where it sits.

And it turns out that John Gottman,

Who is part of the Gottman Institute Relationships,

They study relationships and what makes relationships work well.

And influenceability is the key predictor.

So sense of humor in a tight,

Intense moment,

Playfulness and this thing about influenceability,

They're the two key drivers of a happy relationship and what makes it work and how you accommodate the other person and all the rest.

And so,

Yeah,

What do you think?

Well,

We're in the age of influencers,

Right?

I mean,

Just look online and this word influencer and judging ourselves and others by their follower count and how much social clout they have.

And I think this can be a great thing if it's used for the right purposes,

Right?

If the individual is actually sincere in doing what they say they're doing,

Where their actions align with their words,

Then I think it can be a great thing.

I think it could absolutely show you the other end of the polarity too,

Right?

Where somebody that's influencing something,

Maybe it doesn't have the best long-term interest of themselves and others at mind.

When we're talking about our everyday relationships though,

Tell me more about how that works just like maybe on like a romantic partner's level.

If I'm an influencer to them,

I mean,

What is it?

I guess I miss,

What does that mean or does that apply?

We're talking about in groups,

Right?

And yeah,

Okay.

All right,

Let me clarify.

We've got a great session here because you and me,

We have so many misunderstandings.

I know.

All right,

And this is the nature of relationships.

We sit there going,

Actually,

I think I have misunderstood what you're saying.

And that is the unknowing,

You know?

Sure,

Absolutely.

So if you were going,

No,

You've got it wrong,

This is what I meant.

And let me make sure you have understood and we haven't had that,

Then this is the challenge,

Right?

And then you have a relationship breakdown,

The wall goes up and you're kind of done for.

So what influencing means,

Influenceability,

It's not an influencer.

So that's,

I think maybe the misunderstanding here.

So what it's talking about is,

All right,

My neighbor,

He's got a tree and it sits right on the boundary of both of us.

He has a roof and we have solar panel,

He has solar panels on his roof and the tree is growing up and the leaves are going onto it and the tree height is causing a barrier and it's stopping the sunlight.

And he had the tree man come the other day and go,

Yep,

Got to cut it down to the height that,

Whatever,

Now down to the height of the carport.

Now,

I came out and I just said,

Oh,

Look,

Hello,

What's going on here?

Just checking to see what it is.

And he said,

Well,

The,

I said,

What are some compromises that we can do here?

So I'm looking to see how can we yield together in this space?

And we have always,

We mostly had a good relationship,

Although we did have a problem last year in the election where he was very hardline about and saying some quite offensive things that were just racist,

Basically,

And uninformed.

And he was,

Again,

Not influenceable.

It didn't matter what I said.

It didn't matter what I wrote to him.

It didn't matter what I,

What was,

What else was there.

He was like,

No,

This is how it is.

The knower,

This is this.

And I'm not able to influence him.

And so tree man was here and I'm going,

So can we cut down maybe this branch and that branch and how can we work it so that we don't have to cut down all of it?

Because it's quite nice for us.

It makes a huge difference in terms of the amount of light that hits our place and gets very,

Very hot on our side.

And he said,

You know,

The compromise that you put an awning on your window.

And I said,

That's not a compromise.

That's a solution,

Just nailing it there.

So that's what I mean by influenceability,

That capacity to yield,

To find a place where,

Okay,

This is important to you.

How can,

This is important to you.

This is important to me.

How can we find something that works for both of us?

Yeah.

This is a really,

Okay,

Thank you,

Obviously.

And this is where language is so important too.

And this word influenceability,

It's interesting it's cropping up now in the age of influencers though,

Because we have,

We tend to think here's an influencer and they're affecting me.

I'm under them and they're influencing me.

And most of the time people think,

Oh,

That's good.

You know,

I can learn from them.

I can be influenced by them and they can help me out because they're this much ahead.

I think other people will look at this.

And this is,

Again,

I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to masculine feminine qualities maybe,

But usually it's the male that is the active giver.

And it's the female tendency is kind of more submissive yielding and accepting just generically.

I'm not saying this applies all the time.

So some people might look at that and they say,

Oh,

Well,

I'm being not influenced.

I'm being controlled.

They're wanting me to look at this and use this word and saying,

Okay,

Well,

I'm gonna allow somebody to tell me what to do.

And so we're gonna have stubborn people like that.

So the language I like to use around this is,

Yes,

I found in relationships of all sorts that we have to have boundaries and respect our boundaries,

But we also have to be open.

Like we can't come into every situation with our fists up,

Armor on,

Guns blazing.

Who's gonna wanna be around that unless you're in a war,

You know,

And that's ridiculous to even get in those things.

So there has to be some kind of connection,

Some kind of openness,

Even just to hear someone out,

Some kind of willingness,

Compromise and diplomacy.

You know,

It's kind of a,

It's a Weasley word kind of,

But you know,

This is,

It's not a one-way street.

Relationships aren't one way,

They're give and take,

You know,

I think everybody's kind of afforded maybe 10 minutes of our time,

But some people,

We really don't,

There's not,

It's not mutually beneficial to be with people for a longer time.

But if we have to give people kind of the benefit of the doubt I feel and be open and not come with,

I feel not,

Unless,

We'll know right away if someone's not trustworthy,

You know,

Paying attention to our intuition,

But also,

You know,

I'm gonna be open and until they give signs of not being trustworthy,

Open and honest.

Honesty is another huge key,

Being straightforward,

Honest.

I know a lot of people don't operate like that and I'm a little bit too much like that sometimes,

A little bit too practical and I can be a little bit kind of,

And patience is another huge one because sometimes it just takes extra time to get on the same wavelength as someone,

You know,

To understand where they're coming from and the more we can listen and come into it with,

Okay,

Where is this person coming from?

What do they want?

You know,

How can we help each other?

Is there anything here for both of us,

You know?

How can I help the other person and how can they help me maybe?

Another teacher I heard that was really helpful is if you don't know someone,

Just assume that they've gone through the most horrendous thing they've ever survived in their entire life.

So maybe that's why they can't meet us the way we wanna be met and they have nothing to offer us.

So if I come into a situation with that as a possibility,

You know,

Sometimes maybe that could be the case.

It's such a rich playground and field for so many dynamics.

And we talk about spiritual practice or just our everyday lives.

But what I feel Wendy means by influenceability is just this openness to hear someone consider what they're saying.

And I think we don't need to necessarily be pressured in all the times to respond right away.

You know,

Let me sit with that.

Let me think about that.

Let me sleep on that,

You know?

And especially kind of not responding or reacting when there's heightened emotions and we're running on habit patterns and we're not in a good space.

A lot of times I feel it's really helpful just to take some extra time in those situations.

So what have I missed here,

Wendy,

Too?

So I was thinking about all what you're saying.

And so first up,

I think that extroverts are,

I don't know,

So there was a Zen practitioner.

She was a psychoanalyst back in the 1930s and had to flee Germany,

A Jewish woman,

And called Karen Horney.

And she said,

People are moving towards,

Moving against,

Or moving away.

That was sort of basic dispositions.

So greed,

Hatred,

Disengagement,

Or ignorance,

Whatever you choose to use as your term.

And so I thought that was very interesting.

So I have a very moving against personality.

So my initial response is no.

And then I have to think,

Okay,

All right.

So no,

No,

No,

It's not what I meant.

I meant yes.

But my husband and I are always having these arguments because he said,

Why do you say no?

And then we end up firmly agreeing on this point.

I was like,

We're having an argument in firm agreement.

Firm agreement.

So it's because I go no,

And then I go yes.

Because that's my disposition.

I'm always moving against people.

And it's been such a curse for me.

So I've had to learn and to yield all the time.

I'm not a flexible person.

For me,

I think instead of the masculine feminine energies,

I think it's more,

Do you have a moving against,

A moving towards,

Or a moving away personality?

Because my husband's sort of a yielder.

That's definitely like that.

In terms of influencer and the influency,

Actually the influency is a participant in the influencing.

Because,

So for instance,

I have a client and he wants to become a coach.

And I have a volunteer for the community group.

So he,

And he's a very passive person and we had this big event on the weekend.

So I said,

Okay,

So to develop your skills,

How about you do the event management for that?

Which is great for me,

Because I didn't have to do it then.

And the coach,

My client,

Was,

He likes to take over and control.

And then my client is very passive,

That my volunteer is very passive.

So as I,

We were doing the debrief yesterday because my volunteers,

He had a family situation.

So he's not going to keep going because he's had a big family doo-dah happen.

And I said,

You were colluding because the volunteer,

He's very passive and he wants to be told what to do.

The coach,

You want to be in control and talk a lot.

And so you're in this actual collusion.

Neither of you is developing,

Stretching enough because you're colluding in your marriage of the relationship.

One is very passive and one is too,

One is too passive,

One is too active.

So the influencer and the influency in that we talk about,

I'm always wary about these social media terms.

I always think they're about,

It's more about some Pravda,

Big brother.

Pravda means truth,

And it's nothing but propaganda under the Soviet Union.

So I'm very wary about,

I'm an influencer.

I think that's a way of saying,

I need to see myself as having influence,

But actually I'm fodder to the great mill of Instagram,

For instance.

So you can,

Yeah.

So that's where I am,

But we are at time,

Josh.

We have wrapped it up.

Yes,

We are.

The only thing I'll say is I used to be into,

Truth was really important to me and it still is,

Maybe not as much,

But they've ruined that online.

It's been completely bastardized,

If I can say that.

It's just another game and stuff like that.

So the real people out there,

They need to be more kind when it comes to speaking truths and quit using it for ego and propagation of agendas.

Truth for truth's sake and do it kind and do it well and for helpful.

We are,

Wendy.

This has been so amazing.

And thanks for that clarification around there.

Yeah.

Lots of online rooms for improvement for sure.

Hey,

What are we doing next time?

Cause what have you got as our next topic next time?

That's right.

You know,

Oh my goodness.

You put me on the spot.

I should have known this,

But we do have the next one.

Just let me tease it real quick here.

If you'll bear with me for just a second,

We've got the second one is relational practice.

And we,

I guess we'll pick up on this cause we did so much relational practice in this episode.

And so we'll pick up on that cause I think it's a really strong suit of Wendy's and we can always improve it.

Like we said,

That's the entirety of the path.

So join us next time for that one,

Please.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

We had fun.

Great combo.

Yes,

Indeed.

All right.

Everybody be well.