MenoPAUSE S2E8: Post Traumatic Growth With Bec Sparrow

The years leading up to and during menopause are a rite of passage.

The wise woman inside of us is calling to slow down,

To take stock,

To speak our truth,

To burn away all that no longer serves us ready for our next cycle of life.

The good news is with the support,

Community,

Connection and most of all sharing our stories and being truly seen and heard,

We will travel through this powerful,

Sometimes painful heroine's journey and out the other side.

Welcome to the Menopause Podcast,

Real and raw stories of midlife and mental health.

I'm your host,

Kylie Patchett,

Menopause self-care coach and storyteller,

And I am so glad you found us.

Let's get on with the show.

Hello everybody.

Welcome to another episode.

I'm doing a very big happy dance because today I get to interview the beautiful Beck Sparrow.

Hello Beck,

How are you?

Hello,

I'm very excited to chat to you today.

My goodness.

I've got so many questions as we've already mentioned.

So for those people who are listening in and don't yet know about the brilliance that you have in the world,

Would you like to give us a little snapshot of how Beck Sparrow feels like introducing herself today?

Okay.

So I always find this really tricky of trying to sort of summarize what I do,

But I guess I've spent the last 20 years going into schools,

Primary schools and high schools,

Working with tweens and teens about friendship.

So one of the things that gets me out of bed in the morning that I love is helping.

I want kids to like school.

And I can't do anything about the academic aspect,

But I think that probably the biggest decision we all make in our lives is who we choose to hang around.

And so that's one of my big passions is that I also have an online book club business.

So I run online book clubs for adults and tweens and teens,

Which I run with my friend Jane.

I do online classes for people.

I do other podcasts.

I recorded a podcast for adults called the Friendship Project.

Yes,

I want to get to that.

I do all kinds of things.

I do all kinds of things that I'm really living my dream life,

I would say.

But what I like to do,

Which is talking to people and trying to navigate all of us,

Myself included to having a happier,

More fulfilled life,

I think.

And a lot of that is to do with friendship.

Yes,

Absolutely.

You are speaking my language.

And when I'm reading through your bio,

Like communications in all different directions and I'm like,

Oh,

She's a word lover like me.

Yes.

But a word in words,

You know,

Not the words just for the word's sake.

Something that you actually talk about is being brave enough to have or to start a conversation that matters,

Which I absolutely love,

Because I think a lot of what you're talking about,

Particularly in our schools and with teen girls is there's so much that isn't spoken about and so much that's kind of a bit under the surface,

Particularly when we're swimming in social media land and everything.

I feel like the be kind,

Be brave motto that you have is very much like the guiding light of everything that you do.

When I looked at every single thing,

I was like,

Hey,

This is the central theme here to tie it all together.

We were introduced by another podcast guest,

Em Grey.

I actually forgot her episode and I meant to look it up,

But I will put it in the show notes.

And Em came on the show to talk about a devastating loss that she had,

Which was losing her beautiful husband,

Jeff.

And in the interview,

She mentions a conversation that you have with her.

I'm not actually sure exactly when in the timeline after Jeff's death,

But sometime near the time that this devastating loss happens.

And you actually share something with her that is this key piece of information that she anchors herself to amidst this devastating loss.

Can you tell us about that conversation?

Yes.

So in 2010,

So back in 2010,

I was pregnant with my second child and that was a little girl called Georgie.

And it was incredibly tragic that I was 36 weeks pregnant with her and she died.

And so she was ended up being stillborn and which of course is horrific.

And nobody ever thinks that that is going to happen to them.

You don't ever think when you're pregnant,

I guess that that's a road that is you're going to be thrown on.

And I'd say that about,

It's very interesting,

About 10 days,

A week to 10 days after she died,

I must have only just come out of hospital,

Actually.

I was filled with this sense that Georgie's death somehow was going to turn the light up in my life instead of down.

Just quite jarring in some ways when you're going through a tragedy,

Particularly when you lose a child.

But I just couldn't shake this feeling that she was going to make my life bigger,

Not smaller and that it was going to be more light filled.

And I guess that's something that I don't,

I wouldn't say I clung onto it,

But I think she became like my North Star or that concept became like my North Star.

And I tried,

People can get upset when you say everything happens for a reason and some people agree with that and other people find it very jarring.

But I do believe in the advice that you can give meaning to everything that happens to you.

And so I think for me,

That helped me process what had happened and helped me navigate the path forward,

I would say.

It's almost like when you say North Star,

The word that comes to my mind is like a beacon,

It's that guiding sort of principle of like,

How do I navigate life from this point onwards,

Not being,

And you talk actually in a blog post that I'll actually connect to in the show notes about rather than post-traumatic stress,

This concept of post-traumatic growth,

That sometimes the worst,

Most traumatic events can not break us,

But break us open.

And it's a similar concept,

Isn't it?

It's like,

What meaning do I want to give this event?

And I think that,

Look,

When a tragedy happens to you,

That's not necessarily when you're going to think 24 hours later,

This is going to break me open.

No.

There is this raw grief and I do very much remember in the 24 or 48 hours after I lost Georgie,

I remember thinking very calmly,

Oh,

I'm never going to be happy again.

I just remember just thinking,

Oh,

Okay,

So that's it for me,

I will never be happy again.

And I also had a nearly two-year-old at the time,

But I do remember thinking as well that how I behaved in my grief with losing Georgie,

That I was about to give my daughter a lesson and that if I stayed in bed and disconnected from the world,

That what the message I would be sending my daughter Ava was that Georgie's life was worth more than hers,

That it didn't matter that Ava was here,

That the fact that I'd lost Georgie meant life wasn't worth living.

And so I had to,

And I realised that it's not the message that I wanted Ava to take from the death of her sister,

Even at the age of two,

Because I mean,

She was two at the time and had a two-year-old's ability to realise what happened.

But I knew there was going to be all of these ahead because the grieving,

In some ways,

The grieving doesn't even start till you get to the one year mark of going,

What is this new landscape I'm in?

So I knew that that was going to guide me as well,

But I definitely think,

I mean,

Post-traumatic growth is actually,

They say,

Far more common than people realise,

That more people,

Whether it's five or 10 years down the track,

Will look back and go,

Actually,

That I wouldn't wish that event on my worst enemy,

But at the same time,

It has made my life richer,

Or it's made me appreciate things,

Or whatever.

It introduced me to these other people and I wouldn't have,

And that's very difficult,

Kylie,

Because then you're in this situation of,

And I've actually had the same conversation in a different way with Taria Pitt.

Do you then go,

Like people say to her all the time,

Oh,

Well,

Look at your life now.

You're so famous and you're doing all these amazing things.

Do you wish the fire had still happened?

It's like saying to me,

Oh,

Well,

All these amazing things have happened to you since your daughter died.

I guess you don't regret that.

It's like,

No,

Like- Hang on a minute.

Don't make me pick between these two things.

Nobody,

Nobody would want to run into a fire.

Nobody would want to lose a child,

But we all get dealt a set of cards.

So it's not about,

Oh,

I'm grateful for that event,

Or it's more like,

These are the cards I have been dealt.

Kylie,

You would have been dealt different cards.

Emma Gray has been dealt different cards.

These are the cards I've been dealt and this is how I'm going to play them.

And I think it's like that.

As you're speaking,

There's actually two things.

First of all,

When I reread the blog article that you have written about Georgie,

And where you say it is actually,

I think you say as common or even more common,

More than half of people who survive trauma report positive outcomes.

I knew that in a kind of logical sense,

But I have never really thought about the percentage or the weight of people.

And it is very different to how I'm finding trauma is being spoken to about at the moment on social media.

Because there seems to be this wave of trauma and somatic healing of trauma kind of stuff happening,

At least where I swim in social media.

I know,

It depends on what feed you curate,

But it is often trauma and its negative impact.

And it's not actually trauma and what,

Because I have spoken about this before on the podcast,

But I have been through significant childhood trauma,

But it would be very difficult,

Same thing that you're saying for me to say,

I wouldn't choose to have gone through it,

But it has made me or contributed to making me the person that I am.

And also,

And this is what my next question for you is,

It has very much changed the way I parent because of not wanting to repeat things.

So when you go through this and particularly thinking about,

Actually,

Before I go there,

Do you think that your experience of grief would have been different if Ava had not,

Like if this was your first child?

Oh,

I think that all the time.

So I thought that,

And I think yes,

Because I think that little girl helped get me out of bed.

And so,

And I have women in my life who have either had a still,

Their first child has been stillborn or they've had a neonatal death,

Like their first child has died at one week old or,

And that's a whole different ball game.

And again,

These,

The women that I know who've gone through that are remarkable in the strength that they draw on in order to keep living their lives and to find meaning in their lives and to find a way forward.

So yeah,

It's all,

It's all,

And this is where it's interesting that we can turn grief as well into a competition.

So it's like,

Let's talk about that.

Yeah.

Oh my grief is not as big as your grief.

Yeah.

So then it's like,

And even when we're talking about our own experiences,

We can say,

Oh,

What I went through is nothing compared to what you went through when you had this or,

You know,

Whatever.

And I think,

You know,

I used to say to people grief isn't a competition.

And if it wasn't,

If it was a competition,

Then the Morecams win,

Right?

Of what happened to Daniel,

Right?

That,

But it's not a competition and we are all dealt all different hands and we are all,

And not only are we dealt all different hands,

Kylie,

You know,

We're all dealt different cards.

We are all dealt with differing abilities of how we can handle them.

Now I might have been raised in a certain home with a certain way and I have more tools in my toolbox to handle stuff.

Other people could have the exact same circumstances as me and not have had my upbringing or the access that I've got or money,

Anything,

You could look in all different areas that comes into it.

So it's tricky.

So when I think that instead,

And what I'm saying to you,

What we're talking about,

It sounds obvious.

Of course,

It's not a competition yet.

There's part of us,

I think this is the lonely aspect of grief of you don't understand I'm in so much pain.

You don't get it.

And on some level,

No one can get what you're going through.

But,

But again,

This comes back to friendships and belonging of that,

That,

That having people around you who can walk beside you.

They don't need to know,

They don't need to be able to say,

Oh yeah,

I can relate to that.

Yeah.

I've been in your shoes.

Yeah.

Because they won't have been most likely,

But people who are willing to just walk beside you and not give up on you when you don't respond to text messages or don't attend any invitations or whatever it is,

It's people bearing witness.

Yes.

Or grateful trauma and walking beside you.

And I guess people who,

Who are there as well,

Who maybe inspire you in different ways to keep going and to find meaning.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah,

It does.

And it's actually reminding me of a conversation I had with my own psychologist that just recently I do,

I have had a tendency previously to do that.

It's a diminishing of,

What I went through was difficult,

But it's not as difficult as this or that or whatever.

And she actually said to me in the middle of our session,

She said,

Can I just ask you to stop there?

What,

What part of diminishing your grief makes someone else's grief about their trauma or their lack of whatever fill in the blank there,

Make,

Makes it better for you or them?

It's a bloody good question there because it doesn't.

And it's almost for me,

And this is my own personal experience,

Not that this is for everyone,

But for me,

I,

I think I finally got underneath the kernel of that was that diminishing what I went through was almost another way of kind of abandoning the little person in me.

It's like saying,

Yeah,

I should just be able to just move on.

And it's like,

Well,

Yeah,

But there's still,

You know,

There's still things that you haven't dealt with and perimenopause,

If you haven't dealt with them,

We'll give you a bitch slap and resave it back.

It's like saying to yourself,

You're okay.

It wasn't that bad.

Yeah.

And it's like,

Hang on.

It was that bad.

Exactly.

I'm,

I'm interested as,

As you went along,

So you decide like you have this guiding light or guiding principle,

Beacon,

Whatever we want to call it,

That says we're going to turn the joy up.

What does that change in the way,

Geez,

That you live,

That you parent,

That you partner,

That you,

You go and does it change the way that you get out in the world in your,

In your work life?

Like,

Did it give you the driving force to just,

You know,

Take risks or speak?

I think so.

I think,

Look,

I would like to say to you that,

So after I lost Georgie,

I went on to have two more kids.

And I would love to say to you that,

That losing Georgie made me this amazing,

Calm parent and it didn't,

I still get annoyed and like,

I'm like everybody else.

So I wish I could say,

Oh no,

I'm so appreciative that they're here,

That I never lose my,

I wish I was that person.

I am not that person.

I would say Rebecca Sparrow,

You are a big fat porcupine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it didn't,

It didn't change me like that,

But I think that it,

I've always been quite a spiritual person and I think it helped connect me in a stronger way to this idea that,

About life purpose,

About why.

So when I looked at it and,

You know,

So I'd have these moments of being in this rage,

Rage.

So don't make any mistakes.

So 10 days after she died,

I'm like,

Okay,

It's going to turn the light up in my life.

Okay.

It's going to turn the light up in my life.

Equally at the same time,

I'm howling in the shower.

I am just losing it,

Right?

Disconnecting from the world,

Like a mess.

I am resentful of seeing other people be pregnant with their second child and have a successful baby to take on.

Resentful of that.

So I had all of those emotions.

So I don't want people listening to this to think that I was this,

This angelic Zen person,

But I was,

I think of what I was able to do in,

When I wasn't being washed over with raw grief and anger,

I could keep coming back to this idea.

This has happened.

Yeah.

I,

This,

Maybe this is part of my life purpose or my calling,

Or I am going,

Even if it's not,

Because it's not like I'm now campaigning,

You know,

I haven't taken on stillbirth as a thing.

It's not like it's that,

But I think I just kept feeling like that I could feel her energy.

And I thought she's going to help me fulfill my life purpose.

I think that's what it was.

I think I looked for more opportunities.

I spent,

I didn't do therapy after she died,

Really,

Because I think we,

This is when Brisbane was hit with the floods.

So I think we got 2010.

Yes.

Yes.

At the very end of 2010,

The floods hit.

So,

But she died.

Early 2011.

So that was in those floods.

Yeah.

So she died at the very end of September.

By the time,

You know,

I was out of hospital and I was like,

Able to be in front of,

I think maybe we got one or two sessions in with a psychologist or something,

And then all the roads were cut off.

Then we also happened to be moving interstate for two years,

Away from everyone.

So I think all of that was happening.

So I think part of my therapy was I wrote and wrote,

And I wrote so many articles for a website called Mama Mia.

Yes.

About losing her,

That that was part of my therapy,

I think.

But in terms of how did the light turn up,

I think it was a conscious decision on my part to find a good,

And that's the other thing.

This is what I remember now.

My mom,

Who knows me very,

Very well.

Now this is very jarring for some people to hear,

But my mom knows me and knows what I needed.

I was in hospital because also after I lost her,

I went into kidney failure,

Which they don't know why.

So they think that my body reacted to the fact that my child died inside of me and shut down.

That's because there's no explanation for it.

Anyway,

So I go into kidney failure.

So I was in hospital for a while and my mom brought me in a gratitude journal because she knew,

And I was so grateful to her because she knew that the world felt very bleak to me in that time and that I needed to start finding the little things to prove to me the world was still a good place and that good things were happening around me.

So that helped me.

And I think that that mindset,

I read an amazing book.

I think I got out of hospital,

Went to the shuffled around the local shopping center one day and found a book called 365 thank yous,

Which was about a man who's in a really bad way.

And he decides every day of the year to send a thank you note to someone.

Yeah.

That book really.

So the strangest things helped me.

Right.

That helped me really immensely,

This little funny book.

And I think I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and just thinking this has happened and I'm going to keep choosing joy and I'm going to acknowledge all of this pain and anger I feel,

But it's not going to last forever.

And I kind of was and I did feel my life was split in two that I had that there was now a fault line down my life of before Georgie died and after she died.

Yeah.

And then,

But I think the biggest things that will be 13 years this year that I learned is that you can,

I have,

And I love saying this to parents who've lost,

Who've had a stillbirth is that I am really happy.

I have a really happy life.

I have so much joy in my life.

And what I've learned is that you can have a fracture line in your heart and still have joy,

Or I can,

I put up my grief is now in my back pocket.

So you can have heartbreak and also have a joyful,

Happy life.

And I think that's,

No,

And I think,

I think that's important to hear because I honestly very calmly felt that it was all over for me.

I thought,

Okay,

I'm not going to be,

I don't know how you recover from this.

I'm not going to be happy again.

I'm just going to,

I remember thinking how sad for Ava she's going to have a sad mum her whole life.

Yeah.

It's a big difference between when you said I'm never going to be happy again and shifting to the realisation.

When you say that to other people earlier on in the process of grieving a stillbirth,

How do they respond?

Um,

Look,

I think it was really interesting.

I don't know.

I think that,

That I think initially people probably thought she's in denial.

You know,

They're probably going,

Well,

That's not unusual.

Um,

That's a bit odd,

But I know myself and I,

And I,

And the people who are very close to me know what I'm like and,

And my belief system,

Which really helped me,

I guess.

Um,

And I don't know.

I,

You know,

It's really interesting.

I look back at that time when I was in hospital and what I didn't realise until later is that they had put a special hook on the door of my hospital room and that only certain,

Only certain staff who,

Who were allowed to come into my room,

Because if you've had a stillbirth or your child has died,

Not everyone,

They,

People in the staff in the hospital have to be acutely aware of what they're walking into.

Yeah.

And they often,

The staff who volunteer to work,

Who opt to work in those rooms,

Often are people who've gone through a loss.

And I remember even in hospital,

Staff coming in and sitting on my bed and telling me their own stories of loss and not that I was counselling them at all,

Because that's not my at all,

Because that's not my background.

No.

But I remember having these extraordinary conversations with different people who came into my,

And they would sit on my bed and they would tell me about their loss.

And we would just talk about grief and loss.

And I remember thinking at the time,

It was so meaningful to me.

And also I'm going,

This is probably weird,

But I thought there's something bigger here.

Yeah.

I just remember thinking this is weird because I wasn't sobbing to them and we were really,

And I was talking them through their grief and letting,

And they were telling me about their grief.

It was so,

I was so honoured to hear their stories.

I don't know.

It was weird.

Like the whole thing was weird.

And I remember coming out,

Like feeling like I was stepping outside of myself going,

Okay,

I think this is really unusual.

But.

Do you think though that it is because,

Because you've mentioned like spirituality and having a strong belief system,

Is it because you have that?

It seems to me that when I interview people that have strong faiths or strong,

Like strong belief systems about being part of something much bigger and much more purposeful and much more magical than what we can conceive,

That a lot of things make more sense.

I think so.

I think that the staff who are so extraordinary who came into my room also needed to tell their story to someone.

And so it was just,

And I felt it was very healing.

And,

And I think I knew,

I knew in here I was going to be okay.

Like I knew,

And I was in pain and I was in a rage that why would this happen?

I mean,

Also the other layer of all of this,

I'm married to an obstetrician.

Oh,

I knew that,

But I haven't connected that.

Right.

Now he wouldn't believe,

He said to me at one point,

Why can I save everybody else's child and I couldn't save my own?

Oh,

Goodness me.

So there was that grief on there of like,

How does this happen on our watch?

Right?

But it happened,

Mate.

Like it,

This happens to people.

You know,

You get these cards and nobody wants them.

Nobody wants them.

Nobody wants her husband to die.

People have all kinds of things.

And I don't know,

We've just got to,

I do have a very deep faith.

And if you said to me,

What is your faith?

I don't even know.

I just know that there is something bigger than,

Than all of us is out there.

And I feel like we're all connected and it's about all the time,

As much as you can,

Trying to bring yourself back to that and move forward with grace.

And we,

I had a lot of hope.

I always,

No matter how bad it got back then,

I always remember feeling hopeful and that things could be better,

That we could find our way through it.

Yeah.

You mentioned before,

There's several threads of the power of friendship and connection.

Like you mentioned before,

Having people walking alongside you,

You do work with girls around those connections.

You have the friendship project little side thing as well for adult women.

When you think back to,

Well,

Actually you moved though.

So you moved from,

Did you move somewhere where you had any connections?

We moved to somewhere we knew nobody.

Wow.

Okay.

That's big at that time.

Yeah.

So we've got to go through this grief and look,

But it was,

See,

It's a blessing as well.

It's a blessing,

Right?

Because I had been writing a newspaper column at the time I was pregnant with Georgie.

And I'd said to my readers,

Because nobody thinks they're going to have a stillbirth,

Everyone waits 12 weeks maybe.

And,

Oh,

It's safe.

I can announce I'm pregnant.

I'd written all about my pregnancy through this news column.

Then I had to tell my readers that she had died,

Which was just,

And then my beautiful,

I remember sitting on the floor of my lounge room,

I was in my bedroom,

And I remember floor of my lounge room,

Like six weeks after Georgie died.

And I said to my husband,

Brad,

How lucky are we?

I said,

Because our house was flooded with cards from readers of the newspaper.

And in fact,

I will say that when they,

So I must've told the readers of the newspaper.

Yes.

So as soon as I lost her,

The newspaper ran something at,

On the bottom of my column on the Sunday and sent what had happened.

And then I was wheeled in to,

Yeah,

Because I found out on the Friday that she had died inside me and I had to wait till the Monday to deliver her.

And I remember when they wheeled me in to theatre,

I could feel,

It's like I felt a thousand hands lifting me up.

That's what I felt.

I felt this overwhelming sense that all of these people who were the readers of the newspaper and just people who cared about me were holding me up.

So I think,

Yeah,

I don't know if that answered your question.

No,

I'm just,

I'm interested in that power of connection seems to be something that kind of threads its way through a lot of the things that you do.

So it feels like it's a really important.

Yeah,

It is.

I think that belonging,

Having a sense of belonging and connection,

It is my girlfriends who saved me one lasagna at a time.

And one,

They signed me up to an exercise class with a trainer to do.

They had house cleaners.

They did all kinds of things to look after me for a very long time and still check in.

13 years later,

Still check in.

And I just think,

You know,

In terms of relationships,

We put,

We seem to put romantic,

We act as if it's a hierarchy and we put romantic relationships at the top.

We put family in the middle.

We put friendship down the bottom.

And the first thing we seem to cut when we're busy is we cut seeing our friends.

Yeah.

I'm too busy.

I've got all my focuses on my family.

Look,

I get it.

But they do say now they're recognizing that actually the most important relationships in our lives long term are actually our friendships because they're unconditional.

There's an unconditional nature of them where nobody's saying,

Did you pay this bill?

Did you pick up the time?

Did you pick up the kids?

Did you pick up the weekend?

In some ways,

A much more pure form of love and connection in many ways.

And I think that we need to,

And we know from the stats,

Even before COVID hit,

That people were getting lonelier and lonelier and people were saying they had fewer friendships.

So friendship was already going down before COVID.

We were,

In surveys,

People were saying they had fewer and fewer friends than they ever had in the past.

And that's only gotten worse with COVID.

And I think reminding people to nurture their friendships.

It's not a numbers game.

You don't have to have a squad,

But even having two or three people that genuinely care about you,

That you can be yourself around,

That you can open up to,

That is life changing for people.

And so I want to remind people of that,

Of taking the time to spend time in,

If you can,

In person with your friends,

Watering those friendships.

And I realised when I was making the friendship project for adults,

That I was very good at collecting friendships,

But for a long time I wasn't watering them.

I was really putting the work in.

I'm putting my hand up with that one.

Yeah,

I really wasn't.

I could see I was very good at finding people that I'm like,

And making connections and they're doing nothing.

And it would have felt very one-sided for a lot of people who were in my life.

And that has been a wake up call for me making that series actually with Sarah Wilson-Cease-Carlaw of just making more of an effort to nurture those friendships.

Because women will save each other.

I haven't listened to the whole friendship project series,

But when you started to talk about making it,

I was surprised.

And this is another example of like,

We're thinking something,

We're thinking,

It's just us thinking it,

But then you see other people.

But I was surprised.

The response seemed to be from a lot of women in our middle age that we've been prioritising kids or whatever,

Whatever is your creative,

Whether it's a career or children or both or whatever.

And friendship isn't something necessarily that we've prioritised.

And then we find ourselves in this middle age and particularly hitting the weirdness of perimenopause and going,

Where are my people at?

I don't actually,

And I'm like,

Oh my God,

That's actually how I feel.

And it is exactly what you're saying.

I have friendships,

But I don't I don't take care of them actively.

And that has really shifted in the last year where I've literally booked in time.

I live in a little country town.

I'm not close to any of my super close friends.

They're all over Australia and America.

And so it is about,

I have to literally go,

I'm going to schedule time.

I text people now on Sunday afternoon and go,

Hey,

I've got some space on Wednesday afternoon.

I'll go for a walk.

Do you,

You know,

Whatever.

Talk to a friend for ages yesterday.

And it's so nourishing and filling up,

But I have had so much resistance around it.

And when you started to talk about the friendship project,

That was what you,

Like,

That was the message that was being repeated.

It's like,

I don't have a group of friends or I do,

But I don't take care of them.

Is that what the general consensus has been?

Oh,

A hundred percent.

It was,

It was book.

The number of people who said to us,

I don't have any friends that was staggering.

So I don't have any friends.

I don't know how to make friends.

Yes.

There were a lot of stories about I've been ghosted.

Yeah.

But that was painful or what there's a lot of shame around ghosting and friendship breakup.

So there are a lot of people who feel enormous shame and embarrassment because technically a friendship can last forever.

Yeah.

Right.

We always expect with romantic relationships,

Oh,

They're not the right person.

Yeah.

But,

But a romantic,

A friendship,

Technically you could meet someone at the age of 21 and be friends with them your whole life.

So when a friendship ends,

There can be enormous shame around.

I wasn't,

You know,

If you get dumped,

There's something wrong with me.

So that was interesting to unpack,

But by and large,

A massive message from women was,

I just,

I don't prioritize my friendships.

I don't know how to do that.

And one of the tips that I learned from Leigh's in the series,

Which was like,

That's genius.

I'm going to do that.

And it's so obvious,

But she's like really big on,

Really big on putting things in her diary.

So the moment a friend says,

Oh,

I've got a job interview coming up.

Oh,

It's my birthday.

It's blah,

Blah,

Blah.

She puts it straight into her calendar.

And on that date,

She sends me a text and says,

Hey,

I know you've got this on today.

Good luck.

Or,

And it's,

See,

It's all of these little things.

It's a little,

It's a little of nurturing,

You know,

Friendships of turning towards our friends instead of turning away.

And all of those little things is what I say to teenagers,

All of those little,

Little things of remembering things and checking in or sending someone and saying,

I saw this,

Then I thought of you.

Now that takes two seconds to do that.

Those little things are like bricks in a brick wall.

And that's how you strengthen friendships.

And when you don't do that stuff,

When we don't do all the,

The,

The call,

The,

This,

The little thing,

That's how our friendships crumble.

And we turn around when it's too late and go,

We used to be really close.

I don't know what happened because it's neglect.

Maybe from both sides or maybe from one side,

But it's neglect.

And so the wall starts to come down because you just once.

And then when you're not checking in with people,

Then it's like,

Well,

I don't have the time to speak to them because it's going to have to be a one hour to our phone call to catch them up.

And I can't be bothered.

I'm too tired.

It's so much easier to stay in the loop with people,

You know,

And I,

You don't want to conduct your relationships completely over,

Obviously over text message.

It's a handy tool to use to keep the conversation going in between seeing them in person,

Talking on the phone,

Call.

What I used to have a brain that remembered stuff like that.

Not,

And I can't now.

No,

I,

But I used to be able to go,

Oh yeah,

It's a 16th.

It's,

You know,

And just going for whatever or whatever,

Like fill in the blank,

Even with my kids stuff.

And I think,

Oh my God,

I've completely lost it as a parent,

But I'm like,

No,

That's kind of just,

I don't know.

My cognitive skills have disappeared.

At an age,

I think Kylie,

We are trying to remember.

I have too much stuff.

And now there's a million passwords,

Everything.

There's this,

There are,

We all,

We are walking around with a thousand tabs open.

Yeah.

Right.

So of course we can't.

So this is why I'm now like,

Put it in the calendar.

Yeah.

Put it in the calendar because I will not remember.

Yeah.

I use Asana for everything anyway.

So it makes sense.

Like I've got a family board in Asana.

I'll just make a friendship board.

That's very simple.

Thank you for sharing that tip.

I like it.

Something else I wanted to ask you about,

Bec,

Was you also have an online offering called the Friendship,

Sorry,

Not Friendship Project.

I'm wanting to talk about Lighthouse.

Thank you.

I said the wrong thing.

And it's all about mothers connecting with daughters.

And I wanted to touch on that because I think like I'm someone who did not want to repeat patterns in that relationship.

And so I've had to kind of figure it out for myself and I'm reading through the friendship page and I'm like,

It's friendship,

Lighthouse page.

I'm like,

This is actually the roadmap that I needed when my kids,

Particularly when they were hitting that,

You know,

11,

12 is stage.

And I'm like,

I want to do the period thing better.

I want to talk about sex in a much more healthy,

Much more open way.

I want to,

You know,

I want,

I want them to turn like you were saying with friendships.

I want them to turn towards me as the source of,

You know,

Anchoring or inspiration or good,

Solid,

Open conversations.

Can you talk about that?

Because I just think,

Yeah,

I read through it.

I was like,

Oh my God,

Where was this when I was?

I know.

It's really interesting because a couple of years ago,

I was in Sydney doing a podcast with all these teenagers.

And my God,

I,

So one at a time,

I can't remember what the series was for,

But I was interviewing these teenagers.

I think it was something like it was with 15 year olds and it was like,

What do you want your parents to know or something?

And every single one of them said the same thing in a different way,

But the same message,

Which was,

It was like,

Do not expect,

Do not turn around when we were,

When we are 14 or 15 and expect to be close to us if you have ignored us or not participated in our lives up until that point.

And they said,

It's too late.

And I was like,

Okay,

Like let's unpack that.

And it was like,

So I realized that we,

If you,

And look,

I will say,

I think it's never too late for parents who are listening to this.

And I would say,

I mean,

You've got to remember that's coming from a 15 year old who's like,

Yeah,

But I would say,

I would say it's never too late.

And deep down a teenager would say it's never too late to be trying with that.

But I understood what they were saying,

Which was lay the groundwork,

Start laying the groundwork when they're in primary school,

Lay the groundwork of open communication of what will be inside them of taking an interest in their lives of being engaged.

And that will more,

You've got a better chance that will pay off for you in high school when the problems are bigger,

Because in the end,

Particularly now,

Everything online,

I feel like it just gets worse every year.

Oh,

Far out.

But we want them to,

When something bad goes down,

They find something online,

Whatever,

Whatever they've done,

It's a given that they're going to screw up.

When they screw up,

We want them to be thinking,

Oh my God,

I've got to tell mum.

Not,

Oh my God,

Mum can never find out.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

I had great parents growing up,

But I was in the camp of mum can never find out.

Yeah.

I was in that camp,

Right?

Even though I had a lovely family.

A good relationship.

Yeah.

So I also wanted to do things differently,

That there was a different environment vibe that you screw up and you tell me because I will fix it with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

And there's nothing too big.

Nothing too big.

No,

Nothing too catastrophic.

I think as you're talking,

The difference between the two things is like,

See me and hear me before I actually need you to be the one that I talk to.

Yes.

Like,

You know,

When I'm an eight year old and,

You know,

Well,

Much earlier.

And I think that is quite a different take on parenting.

Even if we did have positive relationships with our parents two generations ago.

Yeah.

Because it still was very much a power structure of like,

I am the boss and you are the kid and you will do it.

And that just doesn't work anymore,

In my humble opinion.

Yeah.

We raised both of our girls to be individual thinkers and question authority and all of those things.

And then sometimes when they do that to you and you're like,

No,

No,

With everyone else in the world,

Not me,

Not me.

So sometimes.

This is awkward,

Don't you?

Yeah,

It's quite funny.

But now I see them being quite clear about who they are in the world.

And I think that the deep joy having older teenagers is you really get to know them as adults,

Like young adults.

And you're like,

I love hanging out with you.

And it's not just because I have to,

Like,

You know,

I actually want to hang out with you.

Like I just made a date with my younger daughter.

Yeah.

On the weekend.

Totally.

She's moved out of home now.

So yeah.

Right.

So a lot of what I do in the Lighthouse plan is it's really interesting that in some ways as well,

A lot of parents don't know how to build those bridges with their children.

And so they kind of like,

Tell me what I need to be doing.

Like,

How do I,

How do I lay that foundation?

What do I,

What do I do?

And I think that in 2023,

So many of us,

Even with primary school kids,

Everyone is in their silo.

Like people are coming home,

People are working different hours or kids have up to school activities,

Families aren't together.

There isn't as much communication.

People are on devices.

People,

There was a time when I was growing up in the eighties where,

You know,

A family,

Whatever that family,

The shape of that family looked like,

You would maybe sit on the couch together and everyone would watch.

Yes.

Show.

Yes.

You would all watch whatever family ties.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

Right.

So it was that that's gone because people are watching their own favorite shows on a tablet,

Most likely.

In separate rooms often.

In separate rooms.

So it's about,

Okay,

How do I actually build,

How do you build that connection with your children?

And so part of what I do in that program is,

Is giving people different tips each week of little things that you can do to build connection.

And it can be as simple as if you,

If you are the person who picks your child up from school every day,

Or when they walk in the door from school,

Don't be on your phone.

When your child walks in and you haven't seen them all day,

Give them your full attention.

Just because another thing I did with the Queensland state government a few years ago,

They did this huge survey of children in Queensland of what they wanted.

And I think the number one thing children wanted was for their parents to get off their phones.

Yeah.

So it's like,

Do you know what I mean?

Fancy all the things children could say that they wanted.

They asked for their parents to get off their phones.

Just want to be seen and heard.

Right.

So I think little things like,

Okay,

I have a rule.

I'm like,

I'm busy.

You're busy.

We're running businesses and phones.

We're not playing,

You know,

We're like,

We're answering emails and paying bills.

But it's like,

Okay,

When my child comes through the door or when I go through the door for the first time and they're home already,

I'm going to give them my full attention.

It's things like that.

I teach parents to set up a,

Particularly with primary school kids,

A journal so that they can write to you about what's bothering them.

Because a lot of kids don't want to ask their parents,

Tell their parents stuff face to face and make eye contact because that's gross.

Yeah.

So what they want to do is either they'll sit in the backseat of the car.

I was going to say the car parallel is a good place to have those conversations.

I don't have to make eye contact with you.

Or they're really good.

You know,

We have a rule in our house that if you write to me and tell me what's bothering you and you leave that journal on my bedside table,

I know that there's something in there.

And the rule is I'm not allowed to speak to you in person about it unless you want to.

So I have to write back and put the journal back.

And then if you want to bring it up with me,

You might come and then find me and say,

Can I talk to you?

But the rule is I'm not allowed to bring it up.

So good.

So it's little things.

It's little things like that,

That that can help.

You know,

It's trying to have one on one time with your kids.

And if even if you don't have the luxury of being able to take your child out to a cafe once a week is having something that the two of you do together.

It could be chopping up stuff for dinner.

It could be a walk,

Whatever in the mornings.

But there's something at least once a week that is just the two of you.

Yeah.

To help.

So it's just building moments of connection.

Yeah.

So that's what that program is about.

It's so I'm finding to my youngest moved out last June.

And yeah,

Just making sure that you actually make the time like we see each other often,

But only in like,

She's dropping the puppy on dropping,

You know,

Whatever I made a dinner.

So I will do that type of stuff.

And it's like that,

That really quality time.

It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of time,

But it's like time when,

Because I think listening to what you're saying about,

You know,

Could parents not be on their phones for all the years I've had a home business,

Which was always supposed to be about better work-life balance.

So many times what my kids got when they got home was me at a computer and like talking over my,

And not even really present.

And I just go,

And you know,

You can't go backwards,

But you certainly can.

But you do what you can do.

Right.

And,

And also I'm sure with you,

That there would have been other things.

Okay.

So like they came home from school and you're like,

Yeah,

Right.

I'm sure there would have been other ways where you would have had moments of connection with them.

And I find even with adult friendships,

Let alone adult children,

Even with younger children,

Life is so crazy busy,

Right.

That sometimes having something that's planned that's in the diary.

So you,

You do a,

You,

You do some kind of a joint activity together.

So whether it is,

Okay,

We're both going to sign up for this class,

We're both going to do a yoga thing or once a week,

Or,

And at least then that's when something's in the calendar.

And you have,

You know,

They always used to say the easiest way to sort of bring a friendship back together is to have a work together.

That's so true.

You have a reason to be seeing each other.

Yeah.

Cause otherwise you go,

No,

I will call you.

I will.

And we go,

Oh,

Horrible.

And we've started to,

As a family now that like,

You know,

Kids are working full time,

Just pre booking a family weekend,

Which is now my girls and their partners.

And that's like a whole new dynamic.

It's like,

Oh,

Okay.

So we have to think about what everyone likes to do,

But it's also really fun that it's a new kind of tradition,

But booking like we had a weekend away because we weren't together at Christmas time for the first time,

Which was devastating on the day,

But anyway,

Got over it.

It's like,

It's only just a commercialized day,

Kylie,

But we had Christmas in February at the beach.

So we went away for the four days.

We're going on a cruise for my youngest 18th in September.

So just booking ahead,

You know,

Little,

And it doesn't necessarily have to be something that costs that much money,

But you know,

Something where it's,

It's something that we all want to do.

And we've,

We've dedicated the time to,

And I'm the one in the family group,

Well,

Family plus partners group chat now that's like 101 days.

They're probably thinking,

Oh my God.

But you know,

I said to the girls that the day,

Do the boys think the men,

Young men think this weird,

Like,

Is this too much?

Like,

Am I being too full on?

And they're like,

I think you're being too full on.

They think that it's actually quite cool.

And I'm like,

That's fine.

So it's like,

I still get to be the silly mum.

Yeah.

And I still will be the one that's dancing and singing.

And that's just the way that we roll.

I think that's,

That's what it's all about though.

It's about finding these moments and booking them in and yes,

It takes effort and somebody's usually got to be the person who does all the organizing.

And it pays off.

Yeah,

It totally does.

What,

What are our lives without these moments with friends and family?

What are they?

Nothing.

No,

I think when,

When you were talking about your belief system,

My dad was 55 when I was born.

So significantly older,

I was his only child.

And I think that what that gave me was a grounding in that wisdom that comes in,

You know,

Years lived.

So it's like,

Like his,

You know,

Overall tenement,

It'll all work out the end.

If it hasn't worked out,

It's not the end.

Like,

Like that sort of really general,

You know,

And one of the things that he said,

He died when he was 91 in the floods that you were just talking about.

And one of the things we talked about,

Cause he was,

He was,

He paliated for eight weeks and is,

He said,

The thing that I most hold dear is memories.

That's it.

Time with the people that you love.

It is no more or less complicated than that.

And I'm just like,

When I get concerned about little things or,

You know,

Whatever,

Whatever's going on,

It's like,

Can we come back?

It's kind of like you were saying before,

Like come back to these central anchors and ground into the fact that.

Yeah.

Like another one that I'm really clear on is just,

Um,

Enoughness.

I feel like I've spent a good part of my twenties and certainly my thirties pushing and striving and growing and climbing.

And I'm like,

I'm actually,

I like,

I'm absolutely in love with my quiet,

Simple country life because to me that is enough.

And that kind of concept of like,

Wow,

Okay.

By just even having that central thing,

I've taken out all of this busy-ness that is never,

Was never,

Ever for me.

It was for some external.

And I think that's what's important.

Yeah.

The hustle,

Like screw that.

I don't have an energy to hustle anymore.

Anyway,

It's just underrated.

Like exactly.

You know,

We're hustling,

Hustling,

Hustling.

And sometimes I don't know,

I think we know what we're hustling for.

And well,

That's,

Yeah.

You know?

And I think that is,

We don't all have to have big lives.

And what does that mean anyway?

What is a big life?

Like,

So my definition of that is going to be different to yours and everyone else's.

And if you don't,

And it comes back all the time to,

You're not spending time with friends and family,

Whatever family looks like for you.

Whatever.

That's where the juice of life is.

That's where it,

That's where it,

That isn't that,

You know,

Sometimes we're doing all this hustling because I'm doing it for my family.

I'm doing it for my family.

And,

But we're absent from our families through this entire process.

As we're doing it.

Yeah.

So,

And,

And I,

You know,

I say that with enormous privilege,

Because I know that there are people who are working two or three jobs.

But it comes down to when,

If that's your situation,

When we're home,

We have to be present with them.

Yeah.

You know?

And it's so easy to not be.

It's just,

There's so many pretty shiny distractions,

Whether it's Netflix or phones,

But it's,

It's about,

It's about being present with them.

Yeah.

Life,

Life giving.

One thing,

When you were talking before about the gratitude journal and,

And filtering all the grief and the rage and the big emotions,

And you mentioned that 365 thank yous.

I just listened to a podcast interview with Glennon Doyle and I can't remember the gentleman's name,

But he's written the book of delights.

And it is,

It is about,

He's a poet.

He has a beautiful way with words.

I must look him up.

And the interview is basically just about finding the tiny joys.

There's actually a trauma researcher,

Mary Catherine McDonald,

Who talks about tiny little joys,

But his delight thing is what delights you.

And he actually uses the word delight,

Which is what delighted me today to can,

Can like keep connected with his friends.

So it's a way of sharing the things that you found delightful in the day.

And I'm like,

I'm going to start that.

I'm going to,

I've,

You've inspired me.

I'm going to.

Yeah.

Well,

One thing I do with my,

My boys who are in primary school and with my daughter,

Who's in high school is we,

I say to them,

Look for the glitter.

Everything that they get into the car.

I,

Because sometimes we think that the things we have to be grateful for are these enormous,

Big stuff.

I'm always saying,

Look for the little tiny moments where something went your way.

Right.

You know,

And so I'm trying to train them.

It's so easy to have negative bias and just to look for everything that went wrong.

So looking for those moments of,

Oh,

I'm so lucky today because I put my hand up in class and the teacher,

I got asked a question and I got it right.

They had my favorite flavor ice block.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Like a little,

Yeah.

Do you know what my moment of delight was this morning?

I it's cold here already.

So I think it was about two degrees this morning and I got up to the gym.

I know.

And yesterday Kylie quite forgot that her habit stack is to put clothes out the night before.

So it's easy when it's cold to change and not change your mind about going to the gym.

Anyway,

This morning,

For some reason,

I couldn't find any socks and I was like,

Ah,

Man,

Ah,

You know,

I was just doing that like,

And in my head.

And then I went out to get my shoes and I'd left fresh socks in my shoes.

And I'm like,

Thank you Kylie.

I know.

I was like yesterday,

Kylie,

You are awesome.

Also,

I think Monday Kylie I'm thinking made broccoli soup and it's delicious.

So every day so yeah,

I think the delighting it's just reminded me again,

Like I think it was all the rage kind of to do the gratitude journaling.

And I got to the stage where I was looking for big things,

But that delight and the little glitter,

It's all about a little thing.

Life-changing.

Yeah.

Life-changing because it really does improve your filtering for those things by definition.

So you start looking for that.

I love that.

So good.

Becca,

I've so enjoyed our conversation.

Thank you so much.

You've spoken about so many things that are so close to my heart,

Connection and friendship and all of the beautiful wisdom that you've shared.

So thank you so,

So much.

We'll put all the links to everything in the show notes and you have a beautiful day,

A delightful day.

And thank you to Emma Gray who connected us.

Yes,

I know.

Go Emma.

She's a beautiful human.

All right.

Well,

I look forward to reconnecting with you in the future.

Thank you,

Beautiful.

Bye.

Thank you so much for listening in to this episode.

I hope you enjoyed it and you took away some golden nuggets or a chiropractic adjustment of the soul around how to more gently and self-compassionately step through this sometimes tricky transition point.

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