S2Ell: Trauma & Brain-Body Connection With Paula Rastrick

The years leading up to and during menopause are a rite of passage.

The wise woman inside of us is calling to slow down,

To take stock,

To speak our truth,

To burn away all that no longer serves us ready for our next cycle of life.

The good news is with the support,

Community,

Connection,

And most of all,

Sharing our stories and being truly seen and heard,

We will travel through this powerful,

Sometimes painful heroine's journey and out the other side.

Welcome to the Menopause Podcast,

Real and raw stories of midlife and mental health.

I'm your host,

Kylie Patchett,

Menopause self-care coach and storyteller,

And I am so glad you found us.

Let's get on with the show.

Hello,

Everybody.

Welcome to another episode.

I am very excited.

We've already been chatting for 20 minutes before we even push,

Push record.

Hello to the beautiful Paula Rastrick.

How are you?

I'm good.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me on your podcast.

I am very excited because you and I have similar backgrounds and also similar thoughts and musings about how we should be talking more about this in the menopause world.

So for the people that don't already know you,

Can you introduce yourself and what you do in the world and then we will dive in.

Yes.

My name is Paula Rastrick and I have a psychology background.

I'm a trained psychotherapist and my focus is on midlife women,

Mental health,

Menopause,

But I'm particularly focused on highly sensitive women and trauma and the interrelationships between those.

So I'm both a complex trauma survivor and I am also a highly sensitive person.

My brain wants to go in 58 different directions.

Let's start from when I came across,

I don't even know how I found you,

But somehow the world of Instagram connected us and you were talking about things that I was just forming for myself,

The dots that I was just forming in my own experience of menopause and mental health issues and then connecting the dots of the trauma.

And you talk about connecting your own dots and how there was quite a journey to get there.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Because you unfortunately were on the receiving end of being well over prescribed HRT,

But I guess the blessing in that is that you have made all these connections for yourself.

Yeah.

So it's both.

I look at it,

I try to look at it now as a blessing because it's what brought me to the point that I'm at now.

So at the time,

It definitely wasn't a blessing.

At the time I was,

So this was 2017,

I was just turned 45 and I was running a business with my husband and I was running a business.

My background is in complex rehab.

I look at the links between the brain and the body.

So psychology,

Brain,

Body.

And the business was very,

Very busy.

We'd just come out of our careers in professional football and started this business.

And you know what?

It was challenging.

There was a lot of lead up to that point where I had a lot of life stresses.

So I was kind of running on empty already,

If that makes sense.

Yes.

Yes,

It absolutely does.

Yeah.

So setting up a new business with my husband was very,

Very challenging.

That's one of the things I will say.

So as I just turned 45,

Literally,

I saw an advert on Facebook in the UK,

Which said,

Are you drowning?

And if I'm honest with you,

I looked at it and I thought,

Yeah,

I am drowning.

And that's exactly how I felt at that point in time.

I didn't have the opportunity to even think about why I was drowning.

I just been doing this all my life,

But basically kind of keep going,

Keep going,

Keep going.

I am a survivor and I live in survival mode.

So I'm very good at it.

I'm a high functioning stress head.

So highly functioning,

Bright,

Intelligent,

And helping everyone else's problems and kind of never,

Ever being the person that looked at themselves.

So I just said,

Oh my God,

That's me.

Anyway,

So it said you could be perimenopausal.

Now,

Seven years ago,

This was not even talked about.

So it's not the world that we're in now where we're talking about it.

I want people to realize that it was very much a case of,

Oh,

You know,

So I just thought,

You know what?

This sounds like me.

So I went to a private menopause doctor in the UK and she basically said,

You're perimenopausal.

I ticked a bop,

Which had 21 symptoms and those 21 symptoms I ticked.

And then it was your perimenopausal.

And guess what?

HRT is going to sort this out.

And I'm being honest at this point,

I would have taken anything.

Yeah,

I totally relate to that.

I'm running a business,

I'm in survival mode and I need to keep going.

So I was then prescribed,

At this point I did not know,

I trusted,

I was then prescribed first of all 100 Everil patch and then I was put on a micronized progesterone.

Fine.

Over the next three months,

My mental health deteriorated so badly.

But I kept going because I've been doing that all my life.

I went back after three months and I said,

I'm really not feeling well.

And at this point it was doubled.

So at this point I was then put on 200.

The progesterone was then not put up.

And that started the story of the decline.

I mean,

It was quite,

When I say decline,

It was quite a rapid physical and mental unravelling is the word I would use to describe.

However,

Because I'm a high functioning survivor,

You know,

I just kind of got on with it,

Which sounds ridiculous and naive at the time.

But you know what?

I had to survive.

I had a business.

My marriage started to fall apart.

I was not in a good way.

I was trying to deal with a child,

A marriage,

A marriage that's dissolving,

A business that's,

You know,

As you can imagine.

So the kind of long and short of that is that my mental health deteriorated so badly.

I now know why,

But I'll go into that later.

And then my physical symptoms,

I started to bleed.

And when I'm talking about bleeding,

I don't want to be too graphic,

But we're talking,

Big graphic,

We talk about everything on this podcast.

It was literally falling out of my body onto the floor.

I couldn't stop it.

I didn't know what was happening.

I was just,

And this is just adding to the whole thing.

Anyway,

In the end,

I carried on,

Right?

And this sounds ridiculous,

But I did.

And it was only my GP.

I ended up going back to my GP to get a prescription of HRT and they didn't know I was on this amount of medication because the letters hadn't been sent to the GP,

Right?

Oh,

So when I then went,

Yeah.

So then I went in and I said,

Oh,

I'm just,

You know,

I was honestly,

That's my kind of rock bottom point mentally.

I just didn't know where I was,

What was happening.

And they said,

What are you doing on this amount of HRT?

And I said,

I don't know what you mean.

I didn't even know that the amounts I had were high,

Right?

I just trusted,

Right?

They said,

You're going to come off this HRT.

We're going to have to bring you down.

Then they said,

We're going to have to check you for ovarian cancer.

Sorry,

Endometrial cancer.

Well,

My mum died of ovarian cancer.

I was like,

What is going on here?

I just couldn't work any of it out.

Long and short of it is they had to put me on antidepressants to bring me down off the oestrogen,

Which I've now worked out can be an excitory type of hormone,

Right?

Too much of oestrogen can push you over the edge.

It pushed me to the point I left my husband.

I ended up in a hotel room.

I don't want to have,

And that was the lowest point of my life.

And trust me,

I've had many pretty low points in my life.

So to get to this point where it's like,

You know,

I can't carry on.

I don't want to be here and I don't want to do this anymore.

So then came the kind of the slow climbing back up the hill,

You know,

That part of,

I packed my business in,

I had to,

I couldn't do it anymore.

And then that real sense of trying to get well again,

Repair my marriage,

Which was broken and that in itself,

You know,

While that's all going on as well.

And,

You know,

I've got a young son and all of those things.

So on that journey back up,

Shall we say,

Medication,

Antidepressants to stabilize me,

To take me down slowly off the oestrogen,

Right?

Then to get the progesterone right,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And then ended up in a place where I was stable.

And I was like,

Right.

And then I thought,

Being a highly sensitive person,

I didn't realize at this time,

What the hell happened to me?

I want to understand.

Yeah.

How did it get to that?

Right.

And I've had,

As I've said,

Multiple,

You know,

Many times in my life where,

But this was rock bottom.

So I was like,

Right.

So as I said,

I put myself on this journey of discovery and healing and really trying to work out.

So I got my medical notes and I asked for them back and I had them examined.

And then that was the first time I realized after having them examined.

Wow.

I was way over medicated.

It was literally the wrong thing to happen.

There were no discussions around my background,

Who I am as a person.

It was based on symptoms alone.

And this is my mission.

You cannot treat symptoms alone.

They come as part of,

They are signs from the body that something's not right.

And therefore you have to look at the deeper meaning of those.

I mean,

Look,

If menopause was purely a biomedical process,

We'd all add a hormonal change.

We'd all pretty much sit somewhere on a bandwidth of the same types of symptoms.

I mean,

Apart from the fact symptom,

This keeps growing more and more women are saying,

Even with HRT,

I'm not feeling that I'm getting better.

This is something else I want to talk to you about.

Of course,

We have to start opening this conversation up.

And one of the kind of,

I feel there's resistance in the UK is that if you mentioned the word stress,

It gets buffed off as if,

You know,

Stress,

Don't talk to me about my stress.

Well,

We do need to talk about your stress because your nervous system is so instrumental within all of these systems that are being affected at midlife.

So that took me on this journey,

Big,

Long story.

And then I started to join the dots.

I got the research and I mean,

Forensically,

I've been doing this now for a few years,

Right?

I started looking at the research in childhood trauma.

Then I started making the links over to menopause.

Then I started to look at,

But actually,

Yeah,

My childhood trauma and my complex trauma,

I'm going to have to face up to this,

Right?

Because it came to the point where my emotional state,

I was holding everything down and repressing.

It's like keeping a lid on it.

You know,

That's how I was brought up.

And many of us were in the 70s.

You know,

We're all clinics,

Women,

So,

You know,

Keep it down,

Keep it down.

So I kept a lid on it and kept a lid on it.

Meanwhile,

You know,

Did all of the avoidance strategies in the world,

Alcohol,

Drugs,

All of my childhood.

I've done everything you can think of risky behaviors,

Studied psychology,

Everything to avoid.

They're all avoiding coping strategies,

Keeping busy,

You know,

And apart from,

Well,

Alcohol was never my thing because that's in my family,

But food,

Food and busyness and helping others like getting into other people's business,

Fixing,

Getting involved in,

You know,

I mean,

I've got two brothers.

There's lots of complications.

They're both,

My parents have died.

They both died at 59.

So,

You know,

I've taken on the role.

I was the parent anyway.

So,

You know,

Being that person,

It just molded me into this kind of high coping,

High achieving total and utter stress head.

Heather And total mess under the surface.

Lucy Oh,

Total mess,

You know,

Like,

I mean,

I'm very good at hiding it.

I'm very good at,

You know,

All of the emotional trauma.

I've had complex sexual abuse.

I've had sexual abuse,

Emotional abuse,

Physical,

All of these things.

And it's not to say,

And this is the one thing I want to get across.

It's not a competition about trauma either,

Because we know now from trauma research that trauma isn't the big trauma things that people think.

I'm trying to get this through to people.

It's like,

Yes,

You know,

Let's stop talking about this as if it's like soldiers in the war and I don't have trauma.

You know,

I did all of that.

You know,

It's fine.

I just,

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I mean,

That's my mantra.

Are you okay,

Paul?

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

Yeah.

Don't want to hug my husband.

Don't want to kiss him because I feel like,

You know,

I'm fine.

I don't want to stop.

Do you know what I mean?

It's that.

So getting to that midlife point where it all just honestly just fell to bits,

If that's the right way to say it.

Then I had this kind of awakening,

I like to call it,

Of like,

Who am I?

You know,

What's,

What is this about?

And then discovering my high sensitivity.

And this made sense to me.

Sorry,

I didn't mean to talk over you.

I was,

Well,

First of all,

I relate to everything you're saying.

Second,

I feel like I'm like on the cusp of starting my awakening because I'm a few years behind where you are,

I feel like.

And I want to interrupt you just to go back to some,

Let's get some definitions clear in terms,

Because I think what you were just saying about trauma is important because I too share a complex PTSD,

Like,

You know,

Background.

But I think it is important for people to understand that I was reading,

I'm not sure if you've read it,

There's a book by Mary Catherine McDonald,

That's just out called Unbroken.

And it's about,

I can't think of the whole entire title,

But it's basically about your trauma response.

And in that,

The definition that she uses of trauma is just any time that your system is overwhelmed and you have not got the resources to deal with whatever stimulus.

Is that how you define it?

And that's an individual thing.

Yeah,

Because it's an individual,

You know,

As a highly sensitive person,

I know that we process trauma on a much deeper level.

So what might affect,

You know,

This person over here and overwhelm them is not necessarily what would overwhelm someone else.

So we need to take it like the menopause and say,

It's a completely individual.

Yeah.

And that definition is,

That's how I would define it.

Okay,

Beautiful.

Well,

Hello there.

Interrupting this episode just briefly to share a bit of exciting news.

One of the things that has surprised me the most about this perimenopause journey is the fact that the former younger version of Kylie,

Who would always plan and goal set,

Has learned that life often has other ideas.

And that is exactly the same as what has happened in my business.

I thought when I returned to business back in October last year,

That I would go straight back into coaching,

Which is what I've always done in my own business.

And I did do a little bit of coaching,

But then life called me to study yoga specifically for menopause and start SUE,

The self-care immersion program that I have.

And something else that has naturally unfolded is for me to use my marketing and communication skills from 15 plus years in all sorts of different communication,

Storytelling,

And relationship building roles and offering that as a service to women in business.

So if you're listening to this podcast and you identify as a woman entrepreneur who is a healer or a helper and does work that is deeply transformative for the clients that you work with.

One of my favorite things is similar to this podcast,

Interviewing you,

Pulling out the golden threads that inform who you are and why you are so passionate about what you do in the world and weaving them into a beautiful set of magnetic content and copy that is attracting to your best fit clients.

So if you need the help of a copywriter or storyteller,

Reach out to me,

You'll find all the information on my website under storytelling or at the bottom of the show notes.

Now back to the show.

So then let's talk about what highly sensitive person means and how people listening would be able to identify.

I know you've got lots of resources on your website as well.

So we'll link them in the show notes,

But just when we're using the terms,

Just to make sure that everyone is kind of on the same page about what the highly sensitive person,

Because that,

I have to say this,

That is something.

It's not a new term for me,

But I always thought it was in relation to kind of in my head,

It's kind of like ADHD and autism kind of like pre-diagnosis for me.

This is the box that I thought those people lived in.

And now I'm like,

Oh,

No,

That's my box or my whatever,

But highly sensitive people.

I always,

The two things that stand out is like high sensitivity to stimulus and things like,

You know,

Tags annoying you and that,

That more sensory as in physical sensory.

So let's,

What's your definition of highly sensitive person and how does that feel for you?

Interesting.

Yeah.

It's a really interesting conversation because again,

I've made quite a lot of links.

So I think the world of,

You know,

Biodiversity and neurodiversity is something else that's now starting to hopefully come out.

You know,

I've always been a big believer,

Regardless that,

You know,

We've all got a unique brain.

So who was the person that decided that this was a neurotypical brain and this was normal.

And then all these other people over here are not normal.

They have.

So I want to just,

That's my strong opinion.

That's an opinion on this because how can we all possibly,

You know,

Who's done the research on this?

So when we talk about neurodiversity,

I think it's something we need to bring up in menopause as well.

Right.

And I think it's a really important understanding of how we're all so diverse and unique.

So talking about highly sensitive people,

There are overlapping signs and symptoms as well.

If we want to call it that between being a highly sensitive person,

Autism,

ADHD.

Okay.

Now they are distinct,

Right.

But they share a commonality.

And one of the commonalities they share is sensory,

Sensory sensitivity,

Sensory processing sensitivity.

So when we think about that side of it,

Right,

You'll maybe see it.

Some of the research I've looked at is you might have a child,

Obviously this was not around when we were young,

But say you have a child who is displaying more,

Shall we say sensitivity.

And I'll talk about that.

Then they could be labeled as having autism or Asperger's,

Or they could be given this kind of diagnosis.

But they're now saying that that could be,

That it is not a disorder.

It's just that they're more sensitive.

It's a genetic trait.

Right.

Yeah.

So yeah,

Go on.

Does that make sense?

No,

No.

Yeah.

That's what I,

That my sense,

Like my feeling,

And I am talking about my own personal experience.

So this is not to say everyone that has been given ADHD and or autism diagnosis is the same.

My sense is that the things that are labeled as autism and ADHD in me have been a very normal survival response to developmental trauma.

Because.

Well,

They're all symptoms and signs and symptoms of overlapping PTSD.

If you look at complex PTSD.

Yes.

They're saying that that is some people class that as neurodiversity because the brain changes,

Right?

Yes.

In so.

So again,

That's an environmental change in reaction to the environment.

Yes.

Okay.

So if you took me as an example,

Was I born more sensitive?

Well,

They've now worked out that some of us have more genetic genes.

Right.

So for me,

Say I was born with those genetic,

You know,

Genes,

And then I was put into an environment that was highly volatile.

And it turns.

I'm in survival mode,

My brain then changes structurally.

So again,

It's more complex,

Isn't it?

Because it's environmental.

It's also a genetic complex PTSD now has is showing up as signs and symptoms that cross over with ADHD,

Highly sensitive people.

So,

You know,

It's not as just as clear to me.

I just don't think it's as clear as here's the label.

I agree.

Here we go.

You know,

Because.

Labeling people.

I mean,

That comes from the diagnostic type of,

You know,

The DSM manual.

Exactly.

Which is.

Which is a DSM.

You know,

I'm not a big.

Fan that's going to be controversial.

Neither am I.

And I didn't realize.

Sorry,

Sorry.

I just realized that.

Sorry,

I didn't realize that the DSM was.

Like it's.

Its roots,

Its origins are actually around like what will and won't insurance in America pay for.

Like the diagnostic requirement.

So it's not even meant to be a tool that.

Helps people to understand themselves,

Which is now what it's kind of being used as like,

You know,

Let's stick a label on someone.

And then therefore you can go on TikTok and watch 5 million people tell you what ADHD is.

That's a whole other kettle of fish.

Let's not even go down that track.

But you know what I mean?

Like the tool that we're using to give people labels is actually not even meant to be.

It's a flawed.

It's kind of like saying the BMI is that be all and end all of measuring health.

It's like,

Well,

It isn't.

It was never meant to be that as a population,

You know,

Measurement.

So when you say.

So what's the difference between and this is something I've never understood PTSD versus complex PTSD.

If we had to choose the things that make them different,

What would is it just the.

Number of experiences or time span of experiences or what what have or is there no easy one is a difficult one if you relate it.

Yeah.

I mean,

If you relate it to the ACEs research,

If you look at it from an adverse and you know,

One of the things is a cumulative effect,

Isn't it?

Yes.

So it's an accumulative effect of so I score very highly in the ACEs score.

Now they're the 10 researched ACEs scores.

I mean,

Going back to the kind of diagnostic type type of differential diagnoses and all of this stuff,

You know what?

I mean,

We could having a label or having shall we call it a label?

It certainly helped me to understand.

So I think it's got a place in terms of it's helping me understand stuff.

Right.

So that that in itself can be a really great help to people.

Yes.

However,

Obviously,

With the amount of overlapping,

The way that they diagnosed is through clusters of symptoms,

Isn't it?

And then you're but because all of these symptoms,

I don't even like the word,

But we'll call them symptoms of trying to find another word for menopause symptoms and menopause symptoms are no different,

Right?

Because they all intertwine and interlink and they all overlap and then they all become all very tangled up.

Then we've ended up with kind of like,

This is menopause.

Well,

Actually,

Was it menopause or actually was this from your complex trauma,

You know?

And now we've met at the junction of menopause where we know hormonally,

Estrogen helps to regulate.

And then all of a sudden,

All of that uncovered stuff that you've already had,

It wasn't it's not coming from menopause,

Is now starting to push back up.

And I think because everything's overlapping and becoming tangled up,

I think it's difficult,

Really difficult to say to someone,

You know what?

I mean,

I do get frustrated when I see someone say menopause mood disorder,

Right?

That is not a thing,

Okay?

It's a cluster of symptoms,

Right?

And then someone's put a label across the top and said,

This is menopause mood disorder.

That is not a disorder.

You know,

It's not a thing.

So again,

It's a cluster of symptoms.

Well,

Those clusters of symptoms and signs,

You know,

Can be related to trauma,

Can be related to ADHD,

Can be related to auto,

You know.

So when we,

Let's talk about the brain because really all of this is about the brain,

Isn't it?

Yeah.

If we were to take a common denominator in all of this,

I like to talk about menopause as a neurological transition because then it starts to broaden the conversation about what's happening with your diverse brain and body.

Yeah.

And if we look at it from that perspective,

It might help people to start to understand,

Well,

What's my brain and my nervous system rather than my symptoms?

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

Does that make sense?

You're speaking my language.

Yeah,

100%.

Yeah,

Because I think if we look at the science of that,

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Then we can take science from pain science.

We can take science from trauma.

We can take science and we can bring all this together and we can help a woman understand that it's coming from multiple different directions.

We're made of multiple dynamic systems.

So for me,

You know,

We need to broaden the language and that would help women to start to see past the symptoms and start looking under the car bonnet and that the deeper sort of,

Why do I have these symptoms?

Yes.

And as we were saying before,

It's not convenient necessarily for someone who benefits from prescribing,

For instance,

HRT,

If it's in,

You know,

In,

I have to be very careful here,

A specific practice that specializes in menopause.

If you come along and you are looked at as just a symptoms checklist,

It would be very easy for someone who is in the business of just seeing a lot of patients and getting them through quickly and ta-da,

Here's your HRT script and off you go,

Which is not every single practice.

I'm not at all saying that,

But what I'm saying is without looking at the underlying experience and history of the person,

You cannot just whack HRT on the top of it and,

You know,

Send people,

Well,

Your experience is a perfect example.

And I think also to me,

The reason why I'm so passionate about having these conversations,

Particularly about mental health is if we are having conversations where we were saying,

Here's what we know about what trauma and particularly developmental trauma does,

And it impacts every single system of the body,

Like we were just talking about.

So I was saying to you before we started recording,

I've got ADHD,

Autism,

And now I've got not now,

I've always had Ehlers-Danlos.

And I was saying to the physio about that,

About my senses that these are all connected to childhood trauma.

And she's like,

Yeah,

We already know that.

And I'm like,

Well,

How is it that the average person does not know?

And maybe I'm not speaking correctly,

But I know,

Like,

I like to think I'm a reasonably well-informed person,

But it was not on my windscreen at all to be forewarned that a history of trauma is something that I need to be keeping in mind when I'm going through any transitional stressor,

Including menopause being a change in the neurological balance and physical balance.

And so what is stopping us putting those pieces together?

Like you're saying,

You used to work in sports medicine,

Pain science,

You've got psychology and psychotherapy in your,

Like,

Why are we not having these conversations?

Or are we just at the stage where we're still pulling people apart into all the separate disciplines,

Like,

Which doesn't work?

I think,

I mean,

Look,

I think we,

You know,

If you look at the research in pain science,

There's definitely a shift and has been over the last few years towards the biopsychosocial model of health,

Right?

Yes.

Now,

If that's happening over in the world of pain science,

It's no different to what's happening over in the world of menopause.

We're all human,

Right?

However,

We seem to have a frustration and I agree with this,

That women's health is not researched well enough,

Which it isn't,

Right?

And that is wrong.

However,

We also now have this other issue that we're not taking other research,

Bringing over and then joining the dots and saying,

Actually,

Let's look at this childhood research here and look at a woman in menopause.

Now,

We have got some research,

Right?

So there is some research around,

You know,

Menopause and childhood adversity and childhood experiences.

We've got that,

Right?

But it's not very big and it's not very well researched,

Like all of it.

However,

There's nothing to stop us joining dots,

Which is what I've done and starting to say,

Well,

It doesn't make sense,

Does it?

Because if we were to take 10 women,

Right,

And put them in a room and they all talked about their experiences,

Let's just do that around a dinner table.

And they talked about how they were experiencing menopause.

You're going to get a completely different story from each woman.

Now,

I don't think the collective is happening.

It's like one person speaks about it on social media and says something like,

I'm having a terrible time and I'm having awful symptoms.

And then somebody else will join in with,

I'm having awful symptoms.

And then,

But we're not really collectively saying,

Well,

Look,

This person over here is having,

Not having an awful time.

And it's kind of swung in the UK over to the point that if anyone says,

I manage my menopause through exercise or diet,

Or,

You know,

I'm having a healthy menopause,

They get jumped on.

Yeah.

They've actually been attacked and said,

And these words,

You're gaslighting women.

That is gaslighting.

And that's another thing that I'm getting frustrated with is that women turning around and using the term,

You're gaslighting me because we don't have a different,

We have a different opinion or a different perspective.

Talk to somebody that's been in an abusive relationship and has truly gone through the process of being emotionally abused through gaslighting.

That is not gaslighting.

So we need to get that right because that's an issue,

Right?

So we should be able to talk about our own unique experiences,

Whether they are positive or I don't look at menopause and go,

Even though I hit rock bottom,

I don't look at it and go,

You know what?

Like my childhood trauma,

I've learned from it,

Right?

It's,

It's,

It's growth.

It's an opportunity for growing.

And I've always looked at it that way.

Now I could blame my parents and don't get me wrong.

I've had,

I've had issues where I,

But anger of blaming my parents,

Both of them are dead.

And where is that anger taking it?

What is it doing with my relationships with my child and my husband and my,

You know,

Ultimately as much as people potentially do not want to hear this,

The only change comes from within and the only person that can make that happen is you.

And it's the same with menopause.

You know,

We can look at it in different ways and that does not mean that somebody is not struggling.

I really,

Really,

Really struggled.

Right.

Yeah.

But I worked out why.

And once I realized the whys,

You can then start implementing the things that,

That are unique to you.

Yes.

Not something a doctor says,

Because let's face it,

I mean,

You know,

Or a medical or anyone,

A therapist,

You have to make it unique to your world.

It has to come from your brain.

It has to come from your body.

And going back to like the sensitivity of just bringing that back around,

If you're highly sensitive,

People is not a diagnostic disorder.

It's a personality trait.

And that personality trait comes with some issues because,

You know,

We feel emotions much,

You know,

I'm very passionate.

You can probably tell.

I feel people's emotions.

Yeah.

I process emotions in a very deep way.

You know,

I struggle with anxiety.

My nervous system is dysregulated.

But once I started to understand that more and I started to put the tools in place for me,

I'm living a completely different life.

I mean,

A couple of my friends said to me that you're,

You're a different person.

I'm a different person because I'm working at it.

Yeah.

You can't have anything without the work.

I'm so sorry.

And that's what the issue is where I'm seeing women that are taking HRT and saying it's not helping me.

Perhaps that's because,

But for all,

There's other work that needs to be addressed.

And I think that we are in such a strange time where,

I don't know,

This is not a new thing,

But I feel like it's intensified lately.

I don't have time to make any changes to my life or pay attention to myself in any meaningful way.

I just want to go to a doctor and I just want that pill to fix it.

Now,

Please,

Please hear me,

Everyone.

I am not saying that there is not a place for medication and particularly,

And I share your experience.

Yeah,

There's,

I mean,

I'm good for full transparency.

I'm on HRT and I'm on,

So think about it.

I went from 200 down to 50,

Which again,

Question,

You know,

So again,

It's not about anti-medication.

It's not about anti-anything.

Not at all.

It's about the individual understanding who they are and what they need rather than we're all being put into one.

Symptoms guys,

That's menopause.

I don't believe that's true.

Sorry.

I think for me,

The other thing that I would say about medication,

And this is particularly,

So I ended up with pretty bad depression and then the side salad of anxiety on top of it,

Which was a completely new thing for me.

And that actually really impacted my ability to sleep.

So I would get tired and I'd go to bed.

And as soon as I laid down,

The palpitations and the anxiety would start and it was crazy making like literally,

And I was actually very concerned about my mental health.

And I'm very,

Very lucky and acknowledge the privilege of the fact that I already work with a psychologist and a psychiatrist and multiple other support people,

Including a beautiful group of friends.

And I understand that that may not be everybody's reality.

I will also say that the medication that I'm now on to help with the anxiety and the depression has allowed me to be able to start building bridges towards other solutions for myself that I could not conceive of.

I've done.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So I say to people,

It's a bridge.

It can be a real,

I took it.

I took antidepressants after postnatal depression.

Okay.

And again,

Those links,

You know,

If you arrive at perimenopause and you've already had postnatal depression,

You have,

These are the links we need to be,

Not just I arrived at menopause,

Then all of these things happened.

That does.

That's not true.

No,

You don't just arrive now.

Okay.

Some women may say,

Listen,

I've never had any issues with my mental health until I arrived at perimenopause.

And if that's you totally,

When I'm not,

This is not about you,

But I do not know many women that if you look at the signs and the junctions in their life,

Postnatal depression is a bit.

So I took antidepressants then.

And then I took antidepressants again when I was over medicated with HRT to stabilize me again,

I don't take them now.

I use them as a bridge.

There's nothing wrong with that.

That's absolutely.

I tell you what.

No one's saying that.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And to me,

You know,

I was still in the camp of,

I think this comes from,

You know,

Having a parent with significant depression and like there was a lot of,

What will I say?

A lot of links to depression that I was just didn't even want to go down the track of being associated with me.

So still,

You know,

Patterns of sort of arguing against the past.

And when I actually got to the stage where I couldn't do anything,

But like I literally was concerned about the way that I was feeling and as it was my family,

The things that I put in place now are things that are obvious to put in place,

But I had no motivation,

No ability to do it for myself.

And I could,

I knew what I needed to do and I could plan it.

And I used to put it up on a planner and I just couldn't,

I just could not,

I was too far down in the hole.

And I think that when we start saying natural's right or medication's right,

And there's no in-between and no individualized,

It's not right.

I don't believe in that conversation.

I think,

You know,

This is the issue,

Isn't it?

It's like,

It's not about what's right and wrong.

There's no right and wrong.

There is no right or wrong because for each individual,

What's right for one,

You know,

And I see it on social media where women are arguing.

And again,

What we've got to try and take a step back and realize is,

Is that your opinion is based on your perception and that's based on your reality.

And so that's why we've got different opinions,

You know,

And it's healthy because we all have different perceptions and different experiences.

I think that sometimes gets lost within this conversation because it's become almost like black and white.

And then if you don't take HRT,

Then you,

You know,

This is happening.

And if you do,

And it's become so divided and polarized,

That is not how life works.

It just isn't,

Is it?

And I think that needs to be,

You know,

We need to kind of stop that because that,

That going down that road is dividing women.

I take HRT.

Some women,

You know,

I don't,

I'm transparent about that.

I don't take as much as what I was put on,

Which is why my campaign around,

You know,

And I don't take antidepressants now,

But I'm open and totally open book about my mental health struggles and my life and my coping strategies.

Because that's because that's my life and I'm the only person living that life.

Yeah.

So I can only ever talk about my own experiences,

But that doesn't mean I imprint them on you.

No,

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I think what you said before about,

We need to be looking at menopause as an individual experience with individual,

You know,

Things that are influencing it.

And like you said before,

With the trauma,

The coping strategies that then all of a sudden stopped working,

I feel like for me,

That trying to keep everything under the surface,

It takes a lot of energy and emotional bandwidth.

And then when you get to perimenopause,

Yeah,

It is exhausting.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And it's like,

You know,

Trying to keep a beach ball underwater.

It's like,

It takes a fair bit of energy.

I've done that all my life.

Me too.

I'm an expert.

So I'm interested in,

You recently did a post on why does,

Why do I sometimes feel anxious when everything is calm and okay?

And I wanted to ask this in the podcast because I think it's important for people that are listening that are relating to the,

Some of the things that we're sharing in terms of like past history or coping strategies.

And all of a sudden they're not feeling like they're working.

It can feel for us who grew up in kind of different versions of chaos or lack of safety that everything being okay is actually really hard to manage.

And I know I'm putting my hand up.

Exactly that.

And that's why I talk about this stuff because everything I talk about is the things that I have experienced.

And the one thing I did about my social media was this is the,

And I'm going to broaden that.

I'm going to talk about coping strategies.

I'm going to talk about,

You know,

Being a people pleaser.

I'm going to talk about,

You know,

Boundaries,

About being the parent and the good girl,

You know,

And there's a lot of psychology about the good girl.

And that applies across all women that,

You know,

Were born in the seventies.

A lot of us have been conditioned to just shut up and put up.

Don't be demanding.

Don't speak your truth.

Do everything for everybody else.

Shut up.

I mean,

My mom was brought up in the,

You know,

You should be seen and not heard,

You know,

Victorian,

You know,

So when we even talk about the psychology of that,

You know,

Midlife should be a time.

Well,

That's why I'm going to use my voice because should step into that authenticity to be able to say what you want.

And you know what?

Some people will not like it and that's okay.

You're not everyone's cup of tea and that understanding of that.

But going back to,

I mean,

Anxiety is a fear response,

Isn't it?

It's an innate fear,

Physiological fear response.

It's a survival strategy mechanism.

Yeah,

You know,

So when we talk about anxiety,

I like to,

You know,

As a person that grew up and has grown up in survival mode,

Right?

Any periods of happiness or rest?

Well,

I never really rested because that was a fear response.

If I rest,

Right?

And I go there,

I mean,

I'm a yoga teacher and I've done everything,

You know,

Well,

Of course,

Because it's part of us trying to understand who we are.

But it depicts myself.

I must learn all the strategies.

Yeah,

I mean,

I've learned everything,

You know,

I'm like that.

I mean,

You know,

I'm the most personal,

Proactive person in the world.

Anyway,

Yoga,

I went on a very,

Quite a deep journey with yoga after my postnatal depression but and stillness.

So let's talk about that.

When you've come from that kind of try to keep running,

When you try to sit with your emotions and feelings because it comes up in the body,

Right?

Those things feel very,

Very uncomfortable.

Overwhelming,

Yeah.

To the point that you just do not want to sit with it.

You don't want to go there.

We're avoiding,

Right?

So I've ticked all the boxes of doing yoga and doing all of that,

Trained.

I've done 500,

You know,

All of this stuff.

Did I ever really truly,

Truly go there?

No,

I only went to the level,

If I'm being honest,

Of helping others.

Because,

But did I go there myself?

Yes,

I went a little bit down the tunnel.

I went a little bit down.

But then you get to the point where sitting in that and actually going through those feelings of those emotions is so overwhelming.

What do you do?

You get back up and you start being busy and you start going over to the other person and trying to help them.

So again,

You're avoiding,

Aren't you?

So anxiety,

You know,

Is a fear response.

It's a physiological fear response.

And if you grew up in a chaos,

We'll say chaos,

And you're used to being in survival mode,

Any period of time where there might be a little bit of joy or there might be a little bit of stillness is so alien to you that you push it back.

You don't want to go there.

And so what happens is your anxiety kicks in,

Doesn't it?

Because it's almost a state that you're used to being in.

Yeah,

It's normal.

You're living in that.

It's normal to you.

So,

Of course,

Not having that state of not being in that fear response and allowing yourself and then the other side of that is,

Well,

It's all going to go anyway.

It's not going to last.

There's no point in me being happy because someone will take it away from me.

So again,

What do you do?

You go back into the fear response because it's more comfortable for you to be in that fear response.

And one of the really difficult things is that thing of letting go of an emotional relationship.

So my husband and I,

You know,

He's a very safe,

Trusting man.

And that's probably when I look back now,

I think that's why we got together,

Because I grew up with a load of alpha males and,

You know,

Fighting and all of this stuff.

And my husband was the complete polar opposite.

So I've worked out that's why we got together,

Because he represents in a very deep,

Subconscious way,

Safety,

Right?

And it's all around safety and survival.

And so he gave me a platform of safety.

But you can speak,

You know,

If you said to him,

Is she open with her affection?

Is she very?

No,

I've struggled with it because again,

It's that fear of letting go of this being taken away from me.

So I'd rather live in high functioning anxiety.

It's more familiar.

Does that make sense?

It's all about safety.

Yep.

And I think once you understand that,

Even understanding anxiety,

Right?

How many people actually understand anxiety?

Yeah.

Because when it's broken down,

I'm very,

This is what I base all my work around is awareness first,

Becoming aware,

Then understanding.

Because then when you understand something,

You start to look at it in a different way.

You take a step back from it,

Don't you?

Rather than being in survival mode,

You understand what survival mode is.

Yeah.

You understand.

I mean,

We can look at many theories,

But one of the theories around the freeze response,

Isn't it?

The nervous system is depression.

Yeah.

Mobilization.

Yeah,

This is,

Yeah,

Sorry.

You know,

And this is what my work is going to be about is trying to get,

If you understand the window of tolerance,

You understand when your nervous system's being pushed.

You understand when you're living in fight flight.

You understand that when you're in,

Because you can go from depression to anxiety,

They come hand in hand.

When you get to that,

Shall we say the middle state?

I mean,

It's not as simple as that,

But that becomes almost like,

Oh,

It's not going to last.

It's not going to last.

And you push yourself back into fight flight.

Yeah.

Because you may as well,

Because you're going to get there anyway.

Well,

You're going to get let down anyway,

Aren't you?

Because that's what you've lived,

You've conditioned.

I mean,

I have huge trust issues based on my relationship with my father.

But do I understand that now?

Yes,

Because I've done the work.

When I'm able to separate myself from my conditioned thinking pattern and recognize this is not moving me in line with my authenticity and my values,

I'm able to take a step back and go,

Oh,

Catch that one,

Because that ain't happening.

And again,

We're so in it that sometimes,

And then people will say I'm so busy,

But we know that stress biologically ages the brain.

And we have this conversation around dementia and Alzheimer's.

No one wants to really,

This is a contentious subject,

Right?

Where it's like,

Well,

HRT usage and all of this stuff.

Let's just remove all of that stuff.

Let's remove all of that stuff and say one simple thing.

Cognitive debt,

Anxiety,

Stress is cognitive debt to the brain,

Right?

Go look,

Because that is one of the biggest indicators of cognitive decline,

Right?

To keep it simple.

And that is,

I'm not a fear-mongering messenger,

Right?

But I do believe that we need to start to understand the implications of toxic stress,

Yeah,

Allostatic load,

Yeah,

Cognitive debt,

Yes,

Cognitive decline.

You know,

So while we're over here talking about menopause,

They're the things we should be going,

Yeah,

That's what I'm going to address,

My nervous system and my brain,

Because it's all interrelated,

You know,

And yet we seem to all we do in menopause,

Sorry,

I'm going to make this abroad,

Is look at oestrogen,

Progesterone and testosterone.

I mean,

That's it.

Yep,

I know,

I know.

I don't know if that's,

You know,

I'm finding that,

Yes,

There are links and I'll give them in the research of oestrogen.

And oestrogen helps to regulate sensory processing.

No one's talking about that.

Well,

Of course,

If you're highly sensitive,

Sensory processing sensitivity,

That's going to be linked,

Isn't it?

As we go through the rollercoaster of perimenopause,

Right?

Because oestrogen is involved in many brain areas.

Yeah,

It's a great buffer in lots of things.

I refute is that without oestrogen,

You're kind of doomed because that is not the case.

You'd be better off looking at your allostatic load,

Your stress responses,

Your nervous system,

Your mental health,

Because they are the bigger key indicators of cognitive decline.

You know,

If otherwise you would have each,

You wouldn't go through menopause,

Like you wouldn't go through the transition of biological change.

I'm glad that you've brought this up because like,

I'm a biologist originally,

Originally,

Like originally biochemist and geneticist and.

Way above me then.

No,

No,

No,

No.

In turn,

Why I say that is.

You must know your stuff.

But from a biologist,

I know my degree is so old,

You may as well just put it in the toilet for toilet paper or something.

But anyway,

Why I say that is I keep on coming back to the reason why I decided to study biology in the first place was this intrinsic wanting to understand how humans worked.

And I think,

I don't know,

I need to go and do your HSP questionnaire thing,

Because I'm as you're talking.

There's three of them now.

Yeah.

The research tests and then I'm gathering the research on this.

Yes.

But have a look at that because there's now there's three different ones that have taken from the sensitivity research.

They've got an institute in London.

They're looking at the research.

I mean,

You know,

None of what we're saying is not research.

We're not talking.

We're not.

Yeah,

We're not.

No,

Exactly.

We're talking evidence based research here.

So for anyone that wants to come in and go,

Well,

That's not it's evidence based.

Let's talk of that in that language.

Yeah.

And I think as as you're talking,

I'm like,

Maybe I'm sensitive because a lot of because if I'm hearing you correctly,

What you're saying is you feel deeply.

You've got an antenna that picks up on other people's emotional state,

Which is 100% me.

But also,

Do you think it is part of the HSP profile to have that desire to put things together and figure it out?

Or is that just a research?

We are 100%.

So if you look around the research in highly sensitive people and the trait of being.

So one of the things I mean,

To break it down into simplistic terms,

Let's say we're all born,

Right?

And in primitive,

We would have had we were born to survive,

Right?

That's our strongest instinct,

Isn't it?

Survival.

And it still is our strongest instinct,

Right?

As human beings.

OK,

When you're born,

It would make sense to me that we're all born with different genes and different genetic makeups.

And within that primitive survival tribe,

Shall we say,

Some of us would have been designed to be more sensitive.

So we're more sensitive to the environmental stimulus coming from the environment.

This is one part of it.

I can only talk about this one part.

So I would be at the front and I would be going.

I can hear.

I can hear something changed.

I can sense.

Yeah,

I can sense trouble.

Yeah,

I mean,

I'm like,

I can.

I mean,

You know,

My friends are like,

What?

And I'm like,

No,

It doesn't feel right to me.

This isn't right.

I like,

You know,

My husband's like,

What?

And I go to him.

No,

I'm telling you,

I'm telling you.

And he goes,

How do you get that right?

I'm like,

Because I feel it.

I sense it.

So it would make sense,

Right,

That some of us were born to be that type of leader at the front and the rest are getting eaten by the tigers at the back.

Yeah,

My husband would have been eaten by the tiger at the back.

He has no.

I'm trying to be kind of,

You know,

I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Sensory processing sensitivity.

When I'm in my background.

Yes.

It's heightened that it's heightened that.

So I'm super I'm like spider woman.

Right.

I'm like,

I can sense my gut tells me.

Yeah,

I get a feeling.

I always say I've got a feeling in my waters and I've always I actually say it in that stupid accent that I just said to empathy,

Putting yourself in other people's shoes,

Feeling emotional pain of others.

You know,

Highly sensitive to that.

And then someone else,

You one of your mates.

They're not.

Yeah,

They're not.

I was telling the story of introducing a podcast guest and I ended up crying in the introduction.

I thought,

Far out.

We're not even into the interview where we're talking about some heavy stuff.

I'm really interested.

I know you're we're getting to the edge of our time together,

But I'm where would you advise people if they're feeling like their nervous system and their reaction to stimulus?

So either they're experiencing anxiety or like fight flight sort of hypervigilance type of stuff,

Or they're sensitive to noise and sound and irritation and whatever.

Where would you say to start in terms of taking some soothing or care of your nervous system to try and have some more?

I don't know whether I'm meaning,

You know,

Make the window of tolerance bigger.

I guess that's the end game.

But,

You know,

A little starting point.

Yeah,

I think I think one of the key messages that I'd like to put across is that we talk about stress reduction and we do a lot around stress reducing.

So,

You know,

Let's do meditation.

Let's do this.

And a lot of that doesn't suit people.

I'd like to move that dial a little bit,

Not to stress reduction,

To stress resilience.

Resilience.

Yeah,

Because we want to look at it as how do I build stress resilience to cope with my life rather than,

You know,

Because one of the arguments is always,

Well,

I haven't got time to sit and meditate,

You know,

And meditation doesn't suit me.

I've done,

You know,

I'm too,

I'm too,

You know,

Up in my head and we spend most of our times up in our head and not in our bodies,

Don't we?

We are like cut off from the body,

Like,

You know,

This disconnect,

I call it right.

And that happens at menopause when you realize I'm completely disconnected,

Right?

Yeah,

I think I've,

I spent three decades at least out of my body.

Exactly,

Exactly.

So that disconnect is really important because it's working out,

How do you increase stress resilience and responses and reactivity?

So as a more sensitive woman,

Your brain is more responsive,

Your nervous system's more responsive.

So you have to work with your body,

Right?

It's in the nervous system.

Yeah.

So for me,

I'm setting up my resources and my tools,

Particularly I specialize in sensitive women and menopause,

And I'm creating my own psychoeducation resources and a membership,

Which is around learning those tools.

Because really what you want to do is learn the tools,

Don't you?

So you can implement them,

Bite-sized techniques,

Right?

That fit with your life.

So that's something I'm launching.

I'm launching that in September and I'm just about to start talking about that now.

Cool.

However,

If you didn't want to do that,

I mean,

That's,

You know,

I'm not a salesperson.

If you don't want to do that,

The first thing that you would want to look at is,

Are you a highly sensitive person?

I didn't even realize.

Go and do the test.

Yeah.

Because that will give you so much information that you probably,

And so many insights.

Then you look at Elaine Aron's work,

Who is the pioneer of the highly sensitive person.

And then you can start to look at the stuff on YouTube you can look at that I,

I mean,

It's a minefield and that's why I'm bringing it all together.

That's the issue you've got.

You can go down a lot of rabbit holes,

Which is why,

Which is what I've done for years,

Which is why I'm creating my own specially dedicated.

But,

You know,

Learning stress resilience and how the nervous system works is key.

So,

Things around polyvagal theory might be an example for you to look at.

Yeah.

Because that helps you to understand visually.

Yes.

The why.

Because once you understand that,

That in itself is a game changer.

It's so good.

It's almost like,

Wow,

You know,

I now understand.

Yeah.

I,

When you were saying that before,

What I wanted to actually say for me,

Understanding the why behind something allows me exactly like you said,

To be then not in it,

But actually observing my response.

So rather than being completely overwhelmed by that feeling of anxiety and having like that whole story of actually being able to go,

Oh,

Wow,

I'm actually having a physical response that isn't.

Yeah.

And so understanding why it's happening,

It actually gives me,

I don't know,

It's like awareness,

Which therefore gives you choice.

And,

You know,

That's not to say that magically it's all going to go away as soon as you understand why.

But I think that's a good thing for people.

I know not everyone.

The first stage is awareness,

Isn't it?

The first stage of any behaviour change of understanding is awareness,

Simply awareness.

That then takes you on the next path,

Doesn't it?

Once you have awareness,

You can say,

This makes sense to me.

Yes.

This now,

Those light bulb moments,

Those insights,

Then you go,

What am I doing next?

Yes.

To start to look at it from a big,

Broad picture becomes so overwhelming,

Which is I've been doing this for years.

It's not just five minutes.

And that's why I'm collating and collecting the resources to pull out as a central resource to people because I've done the work,

Right?

And that's why I'm only specialising in sensitive women and menopause.

Otherwise,

It's too broad.

But I hope that helps without it sounding like,

You know,

I'm not very good at sort of saying,

Oh,

I'm setting up these services.

I'm doing it because that's who I am as a person.

And I believe that this is my mission.

And I believe as a sensitive person that this is my thing in the world.

Yeah.

And that's what I want to share with others.

Find your thing in the world because when you've got that mission and that passion,

That in itself changes your mental health.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Well,

It's a purpose.

It's the magical purpose that people have been looking for.

And we lose that sometimes,

Don't we,

In menopause?

You know,

In that midlife transition,

We lose that.

A lot of women,

Children are leaving or not leaving.

You might not have children,

But you start to question,

Who am I?

And what am I doing?

And what can I channel?

And all these beautiful questions that,

You know,

If you've got the right support.

Yeah.

And that's why I'm setting up my community for specifically for that.

Because women who are sensitive understand,

You know,

Why they're so,

You know,

They're emotional and why it's a superpower,

Not a negative thing.

And I just want to turn it into this kind of like,

Wow,

We're really creative.

We're deep thinkers.

You know,

You could call it overanalyzing,

But let's call it deep thinking.

And,

You know,

We make such beautiful friends because we care and I don't like small talk.

So therefore,

Don't talk to me about small stuff.

Talk to me about the deep stuff.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

That,

You know,

But if you can't find that tribe and you can't outlet that,

You kind of mask it,

Don't you?

Yeah,

Absolutely.

100%,

100%,

100%.

The other thing I would say is you always have really cool,

Short and actionable things on your Instagram channel.

So we'll link to that in the show notes.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And I'm doing little tools and resources.

I'm going to start doing some EFT stuff and I'm doing some body somatic stuff.

And,

You know,

Again,

I'm happy to do that.

That's all people can save that they can look at it.

And,

You know,

That's part of what I'm trying to do is these are the tools and techniques and resources that I use.

That's what I'm going to share.

They're not might not be for you,

But this is what I use.

Yeah.

So if you head over to there,

You can find stuff on that.

Yeah,

It's so good.

I'm so grateful to have these conversations,

Because as I said before,

The more that we talk about this in our own experiences and honest with how much mental health can be changing around the menopause transition,

And particularly for people that have any sort of trauma and particularly complex trauma.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for sharing your spectacular wallpaper with me.

I've just been obsessing over that the whole time.

Everyone says that.

The wallpaper thing.

Yeah,

I'm very into it.

That's another thing.

I'm just really into color.

I'm quite eclectic.

I like.

Yeah.

Otherwise,

It's my brand.

Even my brand I've made.

And I think you have as well.

My brand is colorful.

Yeah.

It's bold.

It's not insipid.

I don't mean that in a it.

I just don't want it to be this kind of.

It's come on,

Let's be authentic and get out there and show your true colors.

Yeah.

Beam it out there.

You know,

Who are you?

Let's celebrate this and step into your authenticity.

And God,

It's powerful when you do that,

Because for my whole life,

I haven't really ever truly done that.

Yeah.

I think as you said before,

I know I kind of sounded like I was poo-pooing the labels of ADHD and autism.

I think you bring a really important comment.

It is very helpful to have a way of understanding your own normal behavior,

Which then,

By definition,

You might see.

Yes.

Yeah.

Not not a disorder or a dysfunction or a this,

You know,

It's again how you look at it and how words are very powerful.

And I sometimes have these things with people,

But they're very powerful.

I mean,

In my acceptance commitment therapy,

Which is what I use for my,

You know,

We talk about language and humans and the language and how you define words,

Right?

One word could trigger me,

Right?

I could say one word and it would trigger me.

You might not have that.

So how powerful is language when you think about how much you're triggered by one word?

So when we look at,

You know,

Disorder,

Dis-ease,

Dysfunction,

I mean,

Immediately,

How does it change your physical feeling?

It feels heavy.

Just stop with that for a second.

But when you then change that and you start to look at it in a different way.

So,

Yes,

Labels help to,

I don't even want to say categorize,

But they help.

They help to give insights.

They help to understand.

To understand something.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's not live by it,

That it's a negative disorder.

I truly believe that every single human being has a,

You know,

They have a unique brain.

So let's stop talking about it in a way that your brain is different to mine and therefore my brain is normal and yours isn't because that simply is not true,

Is it?

I call my brain sparkly now.

I have a sparkly brain.

Because I like the fact that the invitation is there to stop trying to be whatever neurotypical is,

As you said before.

And where I was going with that is love the bright colors and love,

Like I'm the same,

Like I've got plants everywhere.

I've got colorful things everywhere because that is what my brain loves.

That's what I love.

And yet I have gone through periods of my life where I felt like I need to have that more like natural,

Curated,

Beautiful,

Instagram worthy house.

And I'm like,

Oh,

Screw that.

I would hate to live somewhere like that.

I wouldn't feel like I could cozy on down on the couch with my dog or whatever.

So,

Yeah,

I think I think that's the invitation of midlife,

No matter how it gets served up is,

Yeah,

Be more yourself and yeah,

Be your true individual self.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

If we all did that and yes,

There'll be people that,

You know,

You don't resonate with.

Well,

That's cool.

That's fine.

We'll come by,

You know,

You don't have to instead of kind of saying,

Well,

We should all be thinking in the same way.

We should all be acting in this way.

We should all be taking this and we're not taking this.

And if you don't take that,

Then you're in this camp.

Really and truly what a load of rubbish.

You know,

We should just be saying we're all individual women and we all know that,

You know,

If this suits me,

This then this is the way that I'm going to embrace that.

You know,

I love the fact that I'm quirky.

I love the fact that I'm individual.

I love the fact that I'm deeply emotional and I love the fact I'm a deep thinker and my friends love it.

They love it,

You know,

And they know that I'm going to be,

You know,

Talking in a certain way and they're like,

Oh,

Just yeah.

But I don't expect them to be the same.

No,

Exactly.

And that is the beauty of just being ourselves without the,

Yeah,

Without all the other stuff.

Thank you so,

So much.

And I will make sure I link to all of those things in the show notes.

I cannot wait to see what you come out with in September.

I'm excited for that.

Excited,

Excited.

Very,

Very cool.

And thank you for the work you do in the world,

Because I think you sharing the story of how you've joined the dots is certainly when I found you on Instagram,

I was only really just starting to kind of go,

But hang on a minute,

If that and that and that and that and all of that has links to developmental trauma,

Then what about maybe that's the reason why my mental health is so bad all of a sudden.

So finding you was like a little like,

Ah,

Yes.

Okay.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

One of those little universal tips.

We're not on our own,

Are we?

That's the thing.

We're not on our own.

And it's,

It's community is everything.

And again,

Survival mode,

Community.

We've broken down communities.

We're not like just talking to someone,

Just this conversation,

You know,

Does that not help mental health?

Yes,

It does.

Yes,

A hundred percent.

To even talk and get involved with people that get it.

And,

You know,

I understand that.

And,

You know,

So anyway,

We could talk all day.

I know.

And you need to go.

Have a beautiful day.

Thank you so much for sharing.

And I cannot wait to keep in touch and see what you do next.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening into today's episode.

If you love the show,

As I hope you do,

Please take the time to subscribe on your favorite pod listening platform and rate and review.

And for bonus points,

If you have a friend or someone who popped to mind as you were listening to this episode,

Why not hit the share link wherever you're listening and send them a little love bomb?

Like,

Listen to this.

Did you know this is normal?

I really,

Really,

Really would love to get these beautiful stories into the hearts and ears and minds of so many more midlife mavens and your help spreading the love is truly,

Truly appreciated.

Thank you so much.

I'm Kylie Patchett,

Your host,

And have a spectacular day.