John Butler | God, Stillness And The Wonder Of Life

In this podcast I spoke to John Butler.

John doesn't need much of an introduction.

He's very well known in Britain in particular for his magnificent voice and some of the wisdom that he shares.

He has played a big influence on my life over the last five years or so,

So it was an absolute privilege being able to speak to him.

We spoke about evolving as human beings,

Wisdom,

Love,

Freedom and it was a very deep conversation and I could just sit there and listen to him speak for hours on end and there'd be no need to to make any noise.

He could just do all of the talking.

So I love speaking to him.

I hope you do too.

Enjoy the podcast.

John,

First of all thank you.

I have to give a word of thanks because a few years ago I watched a conversation that you had and I had read a lot of what you spoke about but it wasn't in my bones at the time.

It was simply words on a piece of paper,

Something that resonated with something that I didn't own as a human being.

But after that conversation something penetrated and that was the first time that something went deep within me and it wasn't just words from books that I picked up off a bookshelf.

So first thing is thank you for the role that you played in my life at that time.

I'm interested to hear that.

I don't know that I deserve any thanks for it Alex but anyway it's nice of you to say so.

Okay John,

You always seem every time I've listened to you and watched you on YouTube you're always seen in a complete state of equilibrium,

A state of complete peace.

Can I ask John,

Are you always that way or are there things that can happen in your life that completely take you off that point?

Alex I'm rather wary of saying yes or no to anything these days you know.

There's an old saying when we're young we see things in terms of black and white but when you're old you see things different shades of grey.

So the way I'll answer you is sometimes more or less in a state of equilibrium but not always.

But certainly the ups and downs are less so than they used to be when I was younger,

Much less.

Okay can we can we talk a little bit about your background in your life as you were growing up as a young man.

I remember hearing that you were an army officer at one time,

Worked in the family business.

What happened in your life where you sort of moved towards spirituality?

Generally speaking it doesn't happen overnight it seems to be like a progression.

Is that something that happened with you?

Nothing sudden Alex at all.

I didn't call it spirit of course when I was young but being a country boy in love with farming,

Brought up before the war or born before the war in a very rural setting.

I hardly knew what another little boy was.

I was sent to school at the age of seven so I grew up,

Just had an older sister,

She wasn't very interested in me so I was used to being alone and my playmates were the open fields and the animals and the plants that in the country around where I lived.

We lived in a very very rural setting so it was natural for me to be quiet and alone and I've always loved the space of the open fields.

Well I never called it,

Never dreamed of spirit,

Never heard of spirit in those days but I've loved those sort of places all my life.

If anything sums up my,

In fact my life,

It's don't fence me in and it was only much much later that I began to put spirit and space and silence all in the same category really because I don't know where one begins and the other ends really.

But so yes it was just the love of nature really that started me off and then I met a girl when I was 20 and she sort of introduced me to my first philosophic books and I tried for her sake to get interested in it but never was really.

I much preferred the open fields and all that head stuff rather complicated and just got me mixed up too.

So I'm sorry I can't tell you a dramatic eureka moment it never happened with me it was just a long gradual evolution but it certainly has evolved,

Never stopped.

And do you in your life,

Has the evolution of your inner being,

Of your consciousness,

Do you perceive that to be eternally expanding or do you think,

Yes you do?

Oh absolutely yes it and I don't really,

I don't go along with those who say they've got it or they found it or this sort of thing.

I assure you how do you ever find the infinite?

You can't,

It just goes on forever and now in old age yeah I assure you I've never been more sure that I'm just a spiritual child.

I maybe just come to the end of elementary school but it's not the end,

It's not the end dear.

How can you ever,

How can you ever say you've found God or found any of these enigmas or something?

These things are just,

You may just get a glimpse of,

Get a taste of,

At times have a longer acquaintance with.

Yes you become more familiar with these things and yes you even begin to feel these are your natural homes,

This is where you belong.

Have you always felt that you belonged in the world John or have you felt like,

Because I know from my experience when I was younger growing up I didn't feel like a fit in to the world.

Oh absolutely yes I'm the classic misfit and at least within the world of man.

No as a child,

Yes I very soon got into the into recognizing what I called the art.

You know as a farmer when chemicals were first introduced into farming which is all really in within my lifetime they were generally called artificial and this term was widely used in connection with most modern things really,

Artificiality and then modern design came in and modern materials and things and yes artificial,

Artificial contrasted to natural or rather unnatural and natural.

Yes sorry I wandered off your question Alex do you remember what it was?

No I don't but you lose me in your words and your wonderful voice.

Yes John,

Unnatural and natural,

Let's expand on that a little bit because if I look at the world today there seems to be a lot of artificiality and perhaps that's why there are so many seeming problems in people's health,

Mental well-being and everything.

I look at why don't people return to the natural world and let's see what may happen but it seems that we're not moving that direction.

Sorry I remember what the question was now.

Did I belong in the world?

Yes that's it yeah.

No,

No I don't,

I still don't but we can elaborate on that because it's of course a very important point and yes this gut reaction,

This longing for the natural,

Yes it's really instinctive in all of us isn't it?

Even the manufacturers try to draw a nice cow or some green grass or something to to sell you a plastic box of something.

It's an innate longing isn't it and look at me,

I live in a little flat now but I've got some window boxes and I look out of the window at trees.

We all love these little signs,

You want a cat or a dog,

A stroke and these things are comforting to everybody.

It's a sort of natural instinct in us.

Let's go back to belonging then John.

Yes.

So you didn't fit in,

You never felt like you fit in,

What would you perhaps suggest to people who feel that way?

Well if you want to be more natural go back to nature,

Simple.

What if you live in a city in a high-rise block where there's usually a tree somewhere?

Look at the sky,

The sky is nothing better than to look out of the window,

You can usually see a bit of sky somewhere.

We found that an absolute lifeline,

The sky,

It's only the greatest of comforts.

Look at the sky.

Don't turn to other people,

You won't get anything natural from other people.

We can elaborate on what man is and what he isn't.

Yes please,

Please go ahead.

You want me to go on on this?

Yes,

What is man and what isn't man?

Well this is the great,

Great question isn't it?

And it depends how you start,

There are so many ways of what gets us going.

Let's talk,

Let's go towards ego and the thinking and how overthinking can create our problems.

Well it took me many,

Many years to come to that point.

Alex said,

And I took ages to understand what people meant when they talked of the ego.

I've got my own understanding of it now,

I'm not sure everybody will agree,

But I think for me it was just this gut reaction against artificiality,

Against the unnatural,

Of course as a young,

As a countryman,

The city,

The town exemplified that.

Yes,

That was the,

This town and country,

Country was natural,

Town life was unnatural in its simplest.

I think I soon developed a distaste for talk,

Much talk,

Talk to people,

I never felt comfortable with that.

I preferred the silence of horses and sheep and cows and of course the plants themselves.

So do you think that the ego of the person,

The cities and the artificiality,

Do you think that that is like a reflection of man's ego?

Absolutely yes,

Again this took me many years to realise this but you see what we have in here is projected outward and hence the world.

The world is what we make it.

You know it's very simple,

Think how everybody's room reflects their preferences,

What they're interested in,

What they like.

The books on your bookshelves reflect what you're interested in,

The clothes you are and the body language,

Doesn't it,

Reflects what's inside.

So just keep,

Extend that and you see how the world is what we make it,

It's absolutely true.

And this may come as a preliminary or consequence of a deeper understanding of the ego,

Of what man actually is.

I can tell you how it started in me,

I remember very clearly actually,

I've told this story often before so it may not be new to you,

But when I had my first farm,

I was 21 so I suppose it was a year or two after that I remember,

It's hard to express how much as a young farmer I loved the land.

An extraordinary bond grows up when you have a piece of land and start working on it and I suppose it was on about this time of year in spring when the grass began to grow and this wonder of young grass was before my eyes and I realised I couldn't walk across my fields without my heavy hobnail boots hurting and crushing the grass.

Well now,

What a lesson,

What did that mean?

And why?

Because I say this in all seriousness,

Like most children I was familiar with fairies and I'd never doubted,

I mentioned earlier how I liked,

I love the silence of animals and of nature,

Well of course they're not really silent,

They communicate quietly don't they without words,

As do the field wise,

Why are you in the trees?

They're all,

Everything is communicating with us if we've got the ears to hear,

If you listen,

It's not exactly,

Not verbal,

But there's this subtler communication,

That's why instinctively most of us feel at home with nature,

Companion bite,

Flowers in the window box.

Yes,

So there was I damaging my beloved grass and then I realised I couldn't even breathe without breathing in little bugs or insects or things and every time I picked a fruit or something I was picking,

I was killing the fruit.

Later on I used to grow vegetables,

How could I cut the head off a lettuce without killing it?

Why would I pull a carrot from the ground?

I'm destroying life all the time aren't I?

And on my first farm I had sheep,

Goodness me,

What do you think it is?

You love these creatures and then you send them off to be killed.

And then I began to put two and two together and I thought of Jesus that's called the Lamb of God,

That sacrificed for what's called the sins of this world.

Well what does that mean for heaven's sake?

Then I thought well these lambs are killed for me,

For this clumsy creature that can't walk across the grass without damaging it.

Why can't I be a fairy?

Fairies don't hurt the grass,

They sit on the flowers don't they?

The flowers love them.

Now that in a way I've been trying to be a fairy all my life,

Why am I this great clumsy lump of flesh?

Why can't I just be a fairy or spirit?

Well I think that's in fact really what it's all about isn't it?

How can we live in this lovely world without hurting it?

And then I began to think well the only problem in this world is me.

The number one parasite,

Number one pollution in this world isn't plastic or the government,

It's me.

It all starts with me.

Well this again took many many years to sort of see more clearly what I'm,

You know it's easy to talk about it now but in those early days,

When I was young,

My early 20s,

These were very sort of nebulous,

Vague ideas that came and went.

But this is really how it started.

On one of my books I start off from the back cover,

How can I best serve?

That's the word service.

How can I best serve this world I love?

This was my question and the answer came,

The answer came,

The answer led him deeper into prayer.

Well prayer again is a big subject I could elaborate on that,

Is really the process of turning to spirit,

Of raising consciousness from the death and mortality which is this flesh,

As Jesus says propheteth,

Nothing,

It's dust,

It goes to dust,

And spirit which is of course the eternal spirit that doesn't die.

Here you have death and here you have spirit.

Because if the average person would say prayer I think they would think about asking for things.

Whereas I don't think you mean prayer like that do you?

All these spiritual religious terms Alex,

They all start from the realm of separation.

Because the ego,

The number one feature of the ego is that it is separate.

It produces a separate identity called me.

Look I'm John and you're Alex,

Two separate beings,

Two separate creatures.

Whereas when you come into spirit,

What are we talking about?

Let's say silence.

Silence,

If you both stop talking there's one silence that holds us,

Contains us both.

It doesn't matter whether you're in London or California or where you are,

There's one silence that contains us both.

Our silence is the threshold of spirit.

So it's easy,

Here you have separation two called duality and here you have one.

And the process of the whole spiritual journey is really a journey from separation to unity.

And that's as you said easily to say and but the process isn't quite as easy as talking like that.

I think this is why the most merciful God gives us 80 odd years of fumbling around to try to,

I don't ever say realize it but to move in that direction.

Yes and what role do you think that suffering has on that journey?

Oh suffering is most important because you see it helps to teach us.

Again let's put it very simply.

If you think of putting your finger on a hot stove,

We learn by our mistakes.

Suffering illustrates that we are not at home,

That we're exiles in this fallen estate called sin which is really absent from the presence of one,

Absent from the presence of God.

This is why,

Look with me,

I'll soon die.

My body's full of aches and pains and all these sort of things you get in old age.

This is what I am not.

See fairies don't have these problems do they?

And then if you sort of come into more if like grown-up terminology here,

Spirit doesn't die.

So suffering is a consequence you see,

A consequence of sin.

Not sin in the cultural context of doing bad things.

Well you see what we mean by it,

One can't really avoid getting into these traditional explanations.

But if I may take you back to the way the Bible explains it you see,

That in the beginning first of all man was singular,

Wasn't he?

One man Adam,

Just one in paradise,

Walked with God.

And then because he chose to go his own way he fell,

He fell in consciousness,

He fell from this from here down into separation.

And hence me and God or me and you,

You and me may agree on some things but in others we don't.

And so the whole Pandora's box of division,

Separation,

Like dislike,

Black and white,

Good and bad came into being.

That is the root of what we call suffering.

At the root of all evil,

Yes,

And suffering,

Yes.

So what John of ambition and desire and if we use an American term,

One's pursuit of their own happiness?

Well this is all ego.

I mean it's so easy just to throw that out but my God it's real enough isn't it?

I'm lived with this,

I've got no idea,

You can't shake this off that easily.

Even if you look at a newborn baby which seems relatively free of these things,

He's always starts to pick them up doesn't he?

I want it,

It is mine.

I'm here.

Start very early and he's got it the world,

The world encourages it.

The world is,

This is what the world is and the world educates us in this understanding.

And it,

You know,

The world is the blind leading the blind,

That's what it's all about.

So we will fall ever deeper into the pit,

The bottomless pit.

Hence,

Well some have the motivation to at least try to get out,

Others less so.

Do you think that's through an act of their own volition or do you think it's through grace?

Well,

Well then how should I know?

Perhaps a bit of both,

Most of these things,

The grace you see.

There's a sort of magnetism from one,

There's a very good description of love.

Love is the power of one,

It's a sort of magnetism,

An attraction if you like.

And if you ask people what do they really,

Really want,

It's interesting what people will say.

It's not usually the superficial things,

It's usually something like peace.

Very often love,

Freedom.

And return to the natural state.

Natural state.

It's interesting that you can't actually describe any of these things can you?

They're beyond description and everybody knows what they are.

You can't put them in a little box and say it's this.

Can you?

Really?

So there's a sort of inner compass in all of us that yearns for this.

For some it's strong,

Some it's not so strong.

And this one will connect with this magnetism of the one that is radiating out.

In biblical terms it's God's calling us.

God calls and some respond and some less so.

Some respond strongly.

And then starts the long,

Long journey of facing all the contrary forces.

The world,

The flesh and the devil.

The devil being the ego of course.

And it's a long,

Long struggle.

It doesn't have any fool who can know it in theory,

Say I'm this or that,

But it's a lifetime journey.

And even then who can say they're fully home?

John,

Who have been big influences in your life?

Well,

I can't really point to a list of names Alex.

I've never been a follower of man.

As a boy I loved sort of pioneering stories,

Cowboy stories before they became more violent.

And they were more romantic ideals really than the violence it is today.

I think nature has always been my primary teacher.

Yeah,

Beautiful answer.

Can we talk about surrender and letting go of maybe desire again and that contracted energy?

Well,

I learned to.

.

.

When I was 26,

I looked for someone to teach me to meditate.

At that time,

I had never found them long before internet,

Of course,

At least a multitude of gurus are available now.

I only ever found one place that was in London.

So I had to go down to London to be taught.

And I attended the School of Meditation in London for many years,

Nearly 20 years I attended it.

And it was very well taught.

And at one stage,

This phrase letting go was introduced.

This phrase letting go was introduced.

Of course,

Like all these things,

I didn't know what it was.

I tried to figure out for a long time.

I suppose,

You know,

When you're learning to ride a bicycle,

How difficult it is at first.

And then after a while,

Something happens,

You sort of forget to try and something you find you can do it.

I think letting goes a bit like that.

The more you try to let go,

The more you get muddled up and can't do it.

And then I thought of.

.

.

Then I come home from London,

I'd go out to my fields and suddenly it's just natural.

It just happens,

Doesn't it?

If you all screwed up in your head and you go out for a walk,

Take the dog out for a walk,

It'll happen naturally.

You'll just get more interested in something else,

Won't you?

Interested in just being where you are.

And then you'll forget about it.

So it's like all these exercises,

It's really just as simple as pie.

It's just being natural.

So,

Because the way meditation works,

Perhaps this might be interesting to bring this in,

Is that they give you a.

.

.

In my case,

I was given a mantra and told to repeat this mantra.

Well,

What happens is you start off repeating this mantra and then in come thoughts,

Of course,

The mind's full of thoughts.

And then I was told to let go the thoughts and turn to the mantra.

Well,

Eventually I got the knack of doing that.

And then you can let go by having an alternative,

A more attractive alternative.

That's how to do it.

You just get interested in something else and it'll happen naturally.

You see,

Letting go is best described like this.

You just let go.

Well,

If I got a worry,

For example,

You're holding onto the worry,

I'm worried,

Going round and round.

And then you suddenly look out the window.

What happens?

Because our trouble is we get attached to something and our attention is on something.

And the more you think about it,

The bigger it gets.

This is the classic thing.

The more you dwell on your troubles,

The more you look at horrible images on the internet or something,

The bigger they get.

And actually they tend to dominate,

You dominate your behaviour and of course the world you project.

This is how it all starts.

And if you can just turn away,

This is why looking out the window is such a good exercise.

Look,

There's a wind blowing this morning.

I can see the lovely leaves billowing in the wind.

You see,

And in that moment I forget about all these horrible things.

They just disappear.

Like when you wake up from a bad dream,

They just,

What happens?

They just disappear because they're not as real as you think they are.

Yes,

It's transitory.

It's transitory,

Yes.

And it actually exists in here.

And you simply stop thinking about it and you find it just dies out naturally.

When I do a bit of work with people and they,

If I say to them,

Just stop thinking about it,

Or just surrender to it,

Or whatever phrase,

Very often they struggle to do that because it's just words to them.

But when something is suggested such as,

There is not a hair out of place in the entire cosmos.

Everything is absolutely perfectly ordained,

As it were.

When one sees the world like that,

Surrendering seems to become a natural act.

It's not something you need to suggest anymore.

It's something that becomes natural to the person.

Yes,

Yes,

Very good.

One thing I've learned One thing I've learned,

Really again,

Late in life,

I'm very wary of words like stop or don't or should or could or any of these compulsive words.

If you look at the sky,

Which is a very good symbol of God,

The sky doesn't say these things to us,

Does it?

The sunlight,

It's total allowance,

Isn't it?

The rain falls equally on the good and the bad.

Non-judgmental.

Non-judgmental,

You see.

And you'll see many,

Many hard lessons I've learned to reach the point of non-judgmental,

No compulsion.

If I find the words like any sort of instructive word coming out of my mouth,

I usually regret it or if I catch it in time,

I'll shut up.

You see that this is not the way,

The true way.

The true way is like this.

Don't give allowance.

Mercy.

I see this in the personal development and the personal development industry and even the spiritual marketplace now where people suggest to do things rather than encouraging curiosity.

They're told what to do and then that causes more problems like when you mentioned the philosophy books and then your mind goes everywhere.

That's what I tell people.

I tell people,

And then your mind goes everywhere.

That's what I tend to find happening in the world today.

A better word is lead,

You see,

Or by example.

The best teacher is example.

When I was a young man,

I went out to South America at one point.

I was full of idealism.

I wanted to make the world a better place and I tried,

Not very successfully.

And at one point,

I was sitting alone on a mountain side and something seemed to say to me,

To make whole be whole.

And although I didn't understand it,

I've been trying to understand it all my life.

It's been a wonderful principle for me to make whole be whole.

And do you want the world to be any different from what it is today,

Even with everything that's going on?

Well,

My dear,

What?

That's another word I don't like.

But in a way,

The motivation for both of us,

I suspect,

Why we're involved in this work and this interview is because we both want to make the world a better place.

But to begin that,

To begin that,

We have to stop criticizing it,

Judging it.

And if we are blessed to reach the point of understanding where,

As you say,

Every hair of the head is perfect,

Every drain of dust is perfect in its place.

And furthermore,

Every thought in the human mind,

However,

Apparently,

It seems bad,

Is actually the consequence of law.

The whole world is governed by law,

You see.

Just as,

See,

As Adam,

The first man fell from paradise into duality,

And hence this multitude of complication we call the world,

See,

It's all the consequence of of being in the wrong place,

Not being at home.

The lost sheep lead the blind.

So,

You know,

Of course,

We do get upset by these things,

Wars and that,

Viruses and that,

But it's totally lawful,

There's no one to blame but me.

And what can we do about it?

Well,

If you want to help the world to make whole,

Be whole.

You have to begin starting putting yourself in the right place and then,

Marvelous to say,

Again the words of Jesus,

To the pure,

All things are pure.

And you know,

One of the marvelous things about being,

I won't say pure,

I wouldn't dare claim to have a pure heart,

But perhaps being a little bit less impure,

In other words,

Less obsessed with myself,

Less ego,

Which is really what's meant by impurity,

Is the ego,

Me,

Me,

Me,

Me,

I,

Me and mine.

If there's a bit less of that,

You see less evil out there.

The world becomes as ever less,

Ever less dark.

Yeah,

You see the world as you are.

You see the world as it is and and ultimately in your better moments you make it,

Glimpses of even seeing it in perfection.

It's an extraordinary thing,

But it is.

And if you could have told me that as a young man,

When I was desperately unhappy about the world,

But particularly in the state of nature,

Not if any young man was tormented,

I was by these questions.

And now you see I can sit here,

Quietly in front of you and talk like this.

Talk like this.

What?

Incidentally,

You see that those young man's tears that tormented Godness,

You know,

The despair and the depression,

Anger that surged through me as a young man,

You see all were necessary parts of the learning process.

That's why I can't dismiss them.

I've been violent.

There's nothing I haven't done in this life,

All the bad things of the things we don't like in other people.

There's hardly anything I haven't been guilty of myself.

And I don't say guilty in a bad way.

I say because it's because these are lessons that we have to go through.

And if there's one achievement in life,

I won't even,

I dare use the word achievement because I think it's something that grows in you.

See,

The more mistakes you make,

The more you realize I do not know and I cannot actually do anything.

It leads you onto this blessed state of humility.

And honestly,

There's nothing more important when you stand at the end of life as I am now,

To feel this humility.

Can we maybe move into death?

You've mentioned that you believe to be near the end of your life.

Do you feel it's important to have a relationship with maybe even life in order to accept one's immortality or seeming mortality?

I'm not sure how to answer that one.

Of course I'm connected with life,

How can I not be?

But what I do see very clearly now is that I don't really connect or disconnect or these things.

Just as we grow up out of childhood,

How does that happen?

What happens with a child?

You become a schoolboy,

Don't you?

And then what happens?

You pass through your school days and pass out into the world.

You could say the real school of life begins,

Then you mature,

Become middle-aged,

Peak of your activities and things and then start a long decline.

So what happens to all these intermediate stages?

You just grow out of them,

Don't you?

And then we were talking about letting go.

It's not so much that I let go of them and they just grow out of them,

Literally.

And now in old age,

It's not really that I'm doing anything,

But the world is just dying out of me.

I'm just the same.

I don't do anything,

But the body dies out of me.

There you are.

I don't die.

The body,

The flesh,

Mortality,

Dies out of me.

I'm just growing out of it.

It's not so much I'm growing,

I'm not changing.

The true being,

It doesn't change at all,

Doesn't mature because it's eternally never the same.

Like this silence,

This silence is a very,

Very good indication of spirit.

Silence,

Space,

Presence,

They're all really the same thing,

Aren't they?

This silence doesn't change a bit.

It's not subject to time and space.

It's just eternal life,

Eternal pure consciousness.

But the body,

Because it's absent from the source of life,

Which is this,

It's got a duration,

A natural built-in duration,

Which wears out.

I'm just,

I used to be such a strong young man,

I could lift anything,

Do anything.

No,

I could lift anything,

No,

I could look for you.

You lose your muscle mass,

Everything just wears out.

That's a very evolved way of seeing the world.

The average person fears death,

Like it's,

That's essentially,

From my experience,

That's pure ego.

The ego doesn't want to let go of.

No.

Well,

Again,

We can't grow up before we're ready,

Alex.

This is a great mistake.

And why again,

I'm very shy of compulsion,

You see.

If you try to grow up too soon,

You tend to fall over.

In fact,

What will happen?

You tend to build up this ego of,

Oh,

Look what I've achieved,

I've become enlightened or something,

Before you're ready.

You'll make a fool of yourself.

I was farming,

It was very good,

It taught me patience in these things.

That there's a time for everything.

Time to be young,

Time to be old.

Yes,

Of course,

When you're young,

You don't want to die.

You're young and beautiful,

Your life's full of promise.

But eventually,

You know,

You lose your beauty,

Your strength and beauty.

That's one sure thing,

Beauty fades,

Unfortunately.

Or perhaps fortunately,

Because otherwise,

We'd never move on to something better,

Would we?

Because however beautiful this world is,

I assure you,

It's only a shadow of the real beauty of that original paradise,

Which is spirit.

You begin to get a taste of that,

My dears,

And what's happening to the world won't seem so terrible.

See,

In the real world,

Nothing dies.

Death isn't as real as it seems.

These are just monsters,

Monsters,

That manifest as monsters.

Have you had experiences in this lifetime here that we could consider mystical experiences?

Well,

Many,

Many,

Many,

Yes.

Could you give us an example of a couple of them?

I couldn't talk like this,

Could I?

Otherwise.

.

.

No,

You couldn't,

No.

I've heard one about the.

.

.

I believe you lost your farm.

Yes,

Ah yes,

That's a nice little example.

I wouldn't quite describe it as a mystical experience,

But it was a step in that direction.

Yes,

At one time,

My family went through financial difficulties and I had to sell my first farm,

Which really broke my heart at the time.

I was,

How old was I?

I was in my late 20s then,

Not so late,

26 or seven,

And I had a flock of sheep at that time.

No,

I was older than that,

Never mind.

Yes,

I had a flock of sheep,

About a hundred odd sheep,

Which I loved,

Loved,

Loved so much,

So much,

Absolutely loved them,

And to see these lovely creatures being sold was very tragic for me.

When I drove away,

I went off to visit a friend in another part of the country,

Went over some hills,

And I stopped at a lay-by somewhere and there was another flock of sheep there.

I was looking at these and suddenly realized that I could love all sheep and that in losing what I called my flock of sheep,

I could then love all sheep,

And there was this freedom in that and the love simply expanded.

Now what a lesson that was,

You see,

That the less I have to call mine,

The more,

The more I have.

In losing that we gain,

So it's a blessing to lose.

Of course at the time it's dreadfully painful,

Dreadfully,

Dreadfully painful,

Tragic,

The end of life,

Isn't it?

What have I got left to live for?

And then you open up to a greater,

A greater work.

And this has been happening all my life,

And I suspect it is in most people's lives really.

Then I had a second farm and then a time came when I had to lose my second farm.

And I gradually had to realize that I could then love the greater world.

And that love that was nurtured in this cradle of my first and first farm,

Then realized that the whole universe is my farm,

The love became universal.

But step by step by step,

Through many tears,

Had to be torn from what I loved,

To love them all.

As the whole world is being purged,

You see,

We have to be purged of me,

Purged of my ideas,

My everything,

Above all my pride,

This idea that I am something.

What am I?

Nothing.

And then we begin to merge with the infinite.

And that seems to me to be true humility,

Not just a word,

But one's complete surrender to love or freedom.

Yes,

Well,

Again,

You see,

It's no achievement of mine.

It's just natural.

It's what happens naturally.

But I do give credit to meditation,

Because this has been a.

.

.

I've meditated for nearly 60 years,

Night and morning,

Hardly missed one.

It's been an absolute cornerstone of my life.

See,

Meditation is this,

It's letting go.

Although often I sit there,

I'm bored,

I just want to go home or something,

It's often nothing seems to happen,

You wonder what you're doing.

Cumulatively,

What it does,

It opens up to what's beyond.

So there's no.

.

.

Letting go is not really a painful process,

Because you turn to something preferable,

Something better.

I told you I love that principle,

Don't fence me in.

Well,

You see,

This is our normal human state,

You see,

Me holding on to my ideas to this.

And then when you meditate,

You do that,

And you just.

.

.

It gets bigger.

It's like looking out the window.

This is,

You come back to me,

My life,

My troubles.

So to me,

That's preferable.

Some people love this,

Some people are afraid of this.

I don't like.

.

.

I like to be me,

My own human rights and,

You know,

Self-development,

And,

You know,

Me and mine,

This is.

.

.

That's what they want.

Some people do,

Really.

Well,

Perhaps I was less fortunate in that type of way.

I think there's a wonderful author called Robert Johnson,

He was a Jungian psychoanalyst,

And he said,

I'm paraphrasing,

Something like,

If you don't go towards spirit,

Spirit will come towards you.

Well,

The sky does,

Doesn't it?

The sky is beaming down on us all the time.

It doesn't actually come anywhere,

It's just not.

.

.

Never been absent.

Look,

Spirit,

Where is spirit,

Dear?

Everywhere.

We're in it,

Like fishes in the sea.

How can the sea come to the fish?

We're already in it.

I know a lot of the old religious hymns talk about,

Come,

Holy Spirit,

Come,

But how can it come?

It's already here.

We're in it.

This is what we are.

Look,

You're not going to look in anybody's eyes,

However dulled and negative they are,

There's usually a glimmer of something behind all that.

What is light?

Light is spirit,

Isn't it?

It's all the same.

I am the light of the world,

Says Jesus.

So,

See,

What we have to do in the process of meditation is really,

We just work at the impediments.

It's a matter of letting go the blockages that stand between,

And the blockages are simply what we're holding on to,

Like this,

You see.

It's not much light inside my fist,

Is there?

It's dark.

In fact,

You want another illustration?

Open your mouth,

Look inside,

What's there?

It's dark,

Isn't it?

We're dark.

It's all dark inside.

You come out of this and you're in the light.

I think some people have the idea that meditation is just like an Eastern thing and it's there to escape from reality.

I completely disagree with that,

But I've heard that said to me countless times.

Well,

Yes,

Indeed,

Me too.

When I started to meditate,

Meditation was hardly known here in the West and a lot of people were very suspicious of that.

Primarily the Church were dead against meditation.

My father thought of me just opting out of this mystical nonsense.

Why don't you do something useful?

I've been sitting in our local church for 25 years meditating and I felt if people haven't said it to me directly,

They certainly thought it,

Why don't you do something?

Why don't you get up and feed the hungry or something like this?

What's the use of meditation?

Well,

There you are.

That's how most people see it probably.

They are becoming fashionable.

So it's one of the in thing to do now,

Isn't it?

It's taken a long time for it to become accepted.

Because you can charge a lot of money for it now,

John,

That's why.

Well,

That's what happens,

I'm afraid.

You know,

One of the principles that I was taught as a young man at the school was that nobody receives any personal gain from this work.

So that's what I've tried to practice all my life.

But I know there are people now who are making personal gain from it and,

Well,

God will judge.

God will judge.

You see,

How can you.

.

.

You know,

Again,

It seems hardly imaginable,

But when I was a young man,

Farming was really regarded more as a way of life than commercial.

It was largely self-sufficiency.

And the money you made out of it was almost secondary.

It was a way of life,

And it was a way of life.

And then it began to become commercial,

Particularly after the war.

And now,

As I said,

Everyone accepts it.

It's money-making business.

You see,

Why was that considered immoral?

Because the land doesn't really belong to anybody,

Doesn't it?

The land is a gift,

Like the sunshine,

Like water,

Like the sky.

Why should one take personal gain from it,

Personal advantage,

Profit?

Yes,

We all partake in its goodness,

Like the birds and the bees do,

But profit for the benefit of the ego,

This is very questionable.

So even more,

To make profit out of spiritual work is,

Well,

As I say,

God will judge,

And God is the judge.

And this is a great comfort,

I find,

If you can accept that within this imperfect world there is this perfect law operative,

Then you begin to understand why things are as they are,

That they cause an effect,

And everything is judged.

As we sow,

So shall we reap.

This is the law.

So why do we get,

Why do we have all these misfortunes in the world?

Come back to me.

To make whole be whole.

And if we're looking into the world today,

John,

We've already said that,

You know,

By even having this conversation,

There must be some will there to try and make it a better place somehow.

But as you said,

It starts with you.

The responsibility that we have as an individual,

To what degree do you feel that expressing that to other people and expressing that through the internet is a worthwhile cause?

Do you think that it's worth doing,

Or do you think that people are on their own path and there is no need to interfere?

Well,

Alex,

I'm not really here by choice,

Even willingly.

When I was first approached five years or so ago to be interviewed,

I didn't even know what internet was,

Let alone YouTube.

And I didn't want,

I was asked to go down to London.

I didn't want to go to London,

Of course,

I refused.

So they came up here and interviewed me.

First time I'd ever been interviewed and I didn't really know what it was all about at all.

And then it appeared on something I then discovered was called YouTube.

And to my surprise,

It was well received.

And then another chap called Phil turned up and said,

Let's make some more.

So I agreed.

And so I've become well known,

But it's not exactly what I've ever wanted.

It's certainly not what I ever visualised.

And it all happened in extreme old age,

The last time.

I was always a very quiet,

Unknown sort of,

Unseen unknown figure in life.

And I was well content with that.

And now it appears as though I've been thrust into the limelight.

Have you always wanted to be that way,

John?

Like hidden?

Have you always wanted to be like hidden and away from society?

Is that the way you've always in your nature?

Yes,

I think it was natural for me to be like that.

Yes,

I'm a naturally quiet man.

Never talked much.

And sorry,

After five years or so of being a public figure,

I'm only too willing now to withdraw and become quieter.

Just as to,

You see,

The very important thing that one comes to realise in life is that spirit,

This invisible presence,

You see,

This thing that you can see with your eyes of flesh,

This body is dying.

Primary fact,

This is mortality.

This is dying out.

You imagine on the screen,

Just imagine at the end,

Just imagine this goes down,

Down,

Down,

Down,

Down,

Down into the grave.

And what is left?

Just the emptiness of this room.

But the room isn't empty,

It's filled with silence,

Isn't it?

The voice,

The sight of this body has sunk away and we're left with this silence.

Now this silence is eternal,

Isn't it?

This is spirit.

Now you come to realise the more you become acquainted with spirit and the more you grow out of this,

You realise that the real operative force in this life is not me,

But spirit.

This is the power behind the throne,

You see.

This is the steam in the engine.

This is the energy,

This is the energising force that produces what the world calls energy,

The puff,

Puff,

Puff of life.

So all this work of influencing the world is really ultimately the work of spirit and this is really at its best an instrument and that it's more normally an obstacle.

You see,

So the less of me the better,

The less of me the more of God.

And you see it happens completely naturally.

We have our time of,

When we're young we do things physically,

Then we use our mind more.

I've used my voice right,

I've had five years of public speaking and that.

Maybe it's come to an end or it's coming to an end and then I'm entirely more than willing for it to end because this spirit,

You see,

Is really.

.

.

God is well described as almighty,

Isn't he?

This has no strength at all.

Look at it now at the end of life it's just nothing but weakness.

Whereas this is almighty,

All knowing,

All compassionate,

All understanding.

This is everything that's needed.

This is.

.

.

Look at my hand in a sense,

It's the instrument of my mind,

Isn't it?

I say to my hand pick up this mouse or something and pick it up.

And so this is really an instrument,

This embodiment,

Both physical and mental,

Because mind is just an instrument also,

Are just instruments of this the spirit.

So it has its day,

It has its natural function.

I've had that in a long life.

Now it's tired,

It's time to go home and merge back into that from which it comes,

Which is spirit.

And it's spirit that is the consciousness that enlivens,

Which is really the functioning operator in life.

So you've made trust and we tell the trust God and then trust becomes really.

.

.

Trust is really higher knowledge,

You see.

This is knowledge,

Knowledge is limited.

The wisdom of man is foolishness to God.

But faith or trust is really higher knowledge,

Higher understanding.

Then this becomes the reality and this just becomes the limitation,

The instrument.

Yeah,

The more knowledge that as a young man I tend to consume,

The more it leads me to a place of not knowing anything.

Right,

Correct.

Yes,

That's right.

Very good.

And the more that you try and put onto yourself,

The more that you need to get rid of again.

That's right.

Not get rid of it,

It'll die out naturally,

You'll find something better,

You see.

You grow up,

You know,

You're a master,

You see.

You grow out of it.

But yes,

We all accumulate knowledge when we're young because it seems the right thing to do,

Probably is.

Just a phase of life.

How would we ever see the vanity of it if we didn't indulge it?

Yeah.

What does a day,

Before we wrap up,

What is a day for John Butler?

What does that look like?

Well,

It's.

.

.

I don't always rise from my bed with joy.

Life isn't very easy when you're old.

Yeah,

Old age has its problems.

I live alone,

I have to cope with things.

The body is unwilling to.

.

.

Everything gets difficult,

Getting dressed,

I have to be careful I don't fall over,

I lose my balance very easily,

Now I have to hold on to things,

I can't put my trousers on without sitting down,

All these things take time,

I have to be careful.

I've got to go up to the church,

I have to walk on two sticks,

I have to hold on to the banister very carefully,

I have to go down two flights of steps and I always think,

My God,

If I fall here,

That's been the end of me,

I have to be very careful.

It's a good exercise in being attentive.

I get down the steps,

Thank God,

That's just like that.

I've got to walk up to the church,

That's quite an effort,

I have to stop and get my breath back.

Well,

Everything's difficult,

It's difficult to turn the key in the lock,

And my hands are all threatening now,

My fingers have lost their strength,

Everything's an effort.

Come back,

And then the day goes on.

I've always got correspondence.

Yeah,

You see,

It's just a matter of coping with things,

But I try to,

I try to be present as much as I can,

And in my better moments,

I feel this silence,

Which is stillness,

You see,

Which is presence,

Which is spirit,

And then I look at this old man,

You know,

Oh dear,

I'm driven mad by the computer,

I can't do anything on it,

I just don't know what things to press or what to do,

And things go on the screen,

And God knows,

He drives me mad.

I wish I didn't have one,

But I've lived without one these days.

So,

That's a day,

Dear.

Do you still meditate every day still?

Oh,

Absolutely,

That's why I go out in the church every morning,

Yes,

I go up and sit in the local church there,

I've got my little corner,

Yes,

I do that,

And then I go up again in the late afternoon to meditate again.

Yes,

That's what keeps me going,

Really,

Pulls me through the days.

I try to sort things out so that when I go,

Things are left in order,

It's not so easy,

Because my mind is slow and nothing works really very well these days.

It doesn't seem to matter very much now,

What matters is this really.

Thank God it's strong,

And for that I'm so,

So thankful that I started this work,

This is what the school of meditation called it,

The work of the capital W,

This work of meditation,

I was a young man because of this many,

Many years of practice that enabled me to speak with such confidence as I do now.

I leave a message for you and anybody who cares for this video,

It's to practice,

Practice,

Practice,

Lifelong practice,

Practice as the old saying goes,

Practice makes perfect.

Yeah,

John,

I've really enjoyed speaking with you,

Thank you for your time,

Thank you for all the work that you've done over,

Well,

Your entire life,

But particularly the last five years as you've come into the public eye.

Thank you very much,

Alex,

Thank you for your very helpful questions and God bless you all.

And God bless you too.

Thank you,

John.