Spirituality In Our Relationships

So,

Hi Nicola.

Hi.

Hi everybody who's listening in.

My name is Gwen MacHale,

And I'm a somatic therapist and educator based in the West of Ireland.

And I'm really excited right now because I get to speak with a close friend and colleague Nicola Williams about something that we're both really passionate about,

Which is how to really interweave what is most precious to us,

Which is our spiritual understanding of life or spirituality into our professional offerings.

And yeah,

So welcome Nicola.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

All the way from Wales or the UK,

Where are you right now?

So right now I am in Nia Brighton.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I'm originally from Wales.

Yeah.

I think people might guess that from your accent.

Yeah.

I think most people do.

So myself and Nicola met each other back in 1999.

And yeah,

It was a time in life where we were both on our way to China.

And for me,

It was a real restarting of my life.

I kind of returned to Ground Zero and I felt really honored to meet Nicola then because Nicola is somebody who at that time and many times since has been able to really redirect me back to the ground of my own being when I've come off course.

And I feel that is maybe your greatest offering to the world,

Nicola.

That's lovely to hear.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I guess that's it.

Yeah.

And that's what my work is about really,

Is supporting people to come back to themselves,

Home to themselves,

And to be in the world from that place of being at home in their own being.

I wonder if you could say a little bit for the people who are listening about what the word being means to you.

So there's a few different ways of answering this.

So for me,

Being is about who I am.

It's about my presence.

And our being is a shared being as well.

So it's about my experience of being but also recognizing that we have a shared being.

And the being is,

You could say it's everything that exists is being.

And it's the whole of everything that exists.

So rather than seeing,

I think that we call ourselves human beings,

Which we are,

I think we can often be human doings and see ourselves as separate.

But when we're in our,

When we're deeply rooted in our own being,

Then we can really feel our shared being with the whole,

With everyone else here and with the whole.

So by returning to a sense of home in myself,

I can feel more deeply my sense of belonging to a greater home or a whole.

And that brings me out of the illusionary experience of being separate somehow.

Is that what you're telling?

Yes,

That's it.

That's well reflected.

Yeah.

And I'd love to hear more about how this,

Which feels like it's such an essential aspect of your being and your particular,

Your particular flavour,

Colour of being that you represent as Michael Williams,

Right?

Like that this is something that's so essential to who you are.

I'd love to know how this comes through and the different aspects of your work because your,

Your field of work is really diverse actually,

And really interesting.

So,

But yet this seems to be like the essential elements coming through everywhere.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's,

That's a good way of putting it.

Yeah.

I work with seven different themes.

So so,

So I call myself a relationships coach.

And the reason is because life is all about relationships for me.

And it's my relationship to myself or our relationship to ourselves,

Our relationship to each other,

To life,

To everything.

So it's looking at how we relate in the world.

And so I work with seven different themes and around relationships.

So for example,

Healthy boundaries,

Saying no,

And assertiveness is one theme.

And the themes have really emerged for me from what,

What I think is most helpful for people to learn about in relationships.

So that one is essential.

If we're not able to say no,

We're not able to speak up for ourselves then it's really difficult to be in the world and keep ourselves safe and happy and on track and meeting our needs.

And then we have authentic relating and kind communication.

I think that's really essential for our relating.

Kindness is really essential.

So we can be authentically who we are,

But then we're communicating that in a kind way.

And that everyday spirituality is another theme.

Just looking at how do we view ourselves as part of something that's actually greater than us,

That can hold us and how can we integrate that in everyday life.

I think all of the themes really,

What's central to all of the themes is this spiritual perspective.

Part of the reason we are having this conversation now is because I realised that I want to talk about that explicitly a lot more.

It's implicit in my work.

If you read the themes on the website,

You might get that to an extent,

But I feel like it's time for me to more explicitly talk about this because it is really central to who I am and why I offer what I do.

So yeah,

It feels important.

I wonder,

Because I know this has been the case for me and I know it's the case for a lot of people.

I'm just wondering if for you,

You have found that it's been challenging somehow to really overtly give expression to your spiritual understanding of the world.

Yes,

It has and I think that's for a few reasons really.

I think one of the reasons is because it's hard to put words on something that's hard to describe.

That's not a solid physical thing here and everyone's experience is different and how can I make this understandable?

How can I express what I'm experiencing in here of my existence?

How can I make that understandable to others?

That's a part of it.

And I think another part of it is not really being sure how it will be received and perceived because I'm very grounded.

I'm a very grounded person and my work is very,

Very grounded.

Not coming from an airy,

Fairy place but my spirituality is actually very,

Very grounded.

But I think maybe I have some ideas or I project that other people have some ideas that I won't be seen as grounded if I talk about this.

And I'm realising that's just not true and I really want to express.

It's time for me to express this now in the world.

Yeah,

I know it's myself getting really excited actually as you talk about a grounded spirituality because I can relate to what you're saying about if I am really honest and open and vulnerable about my experience of being in the world,

I'm going to invite projections and judgments from others that I'm airy,

Fairy,

A wave of birds,

All those kinds of things that we do get projected onto us if we speak about certain things.

And I feel a real passion rising in myself now because I feel like,

And that's why we need to speak about them in a grounded way,

To heal that real and division that we carry between the body and mind,

The spirit and the matter,

That kind of Descartesian split of I think therefore I am and anything else is weird and wacky.

But actually,

Maybe we're entering into an era of really being able to be a whole human being and not the human doing,

Living in the state of separateness that you were talking about earlier,

But actually a whole human being that is a body and a mind and a heart and a soul and spirit living in a place of ecological interconnection with everything else that exists.

Yes.

And we need it now really more than ever because when we recognize that we are not separate,

Everything,

Every way that we are,

Everything we say and do matters because we're interconnected with everything else.

And it also makes us,

When we realize if we are kind to someone else,

Automatically that is a kindness to ourselves because we're interconnected.

So when we realize that we're not separate,

Then it comes naturally to us to be kind to each other,

Be kind to the earth,

To really be in the love that is our true nature.

Yes,

The love that is our true nature.

Yeah.

I like your note.

Yeah.

And that is the opposite of airy-fairy,

You know,

That's very practical and very necessary for us to realize and actually have conversations about.

Yes.

I noticed as I was hearing you speak there,

What I was with was kind of a sense of responsibility.

It brings me into a place of responsibility.

You know,

When I recognize that I'm not separate and that my words and actions and thoughts and behaviors have an impact at such a level,

I've become a much more responsible human being.

I'm less likely to harm myself or others or the planet.

Yeah.

To be more aware of myself in the world and the interconnectedness of us all.

So as you say,

That's so practical and so grounded and necessary.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Exactly.

I notice a kind of mixed response to myself when I hear you speaking about kindness.

So I think what happens for me is with my own conditioning,

And this is what I see in the world so much,

Is a kind of a false kindness in something or an imposed kindness,

Which is more to do with being a good girl and doing the right thing and being nice.

And if often lies in the face of authenticity and truth,

You know,

Again,

The split that human being of human doing kind of basic split says you can be truthful or you can be kind,

But you can't be both.

I wonder,

Would you like to say something about that?

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think truth,

Truthfulness is kindness and authenticity is kindness.

And there's a sense,

This is why I talk about authentic,

Relating and kind communication,

Because there's a sensitivity that we might need around expressing our truth or expressing in a relationship how something is for us,

Because we do have an impact on each other.

But yeah,

Definitely.

For example,

Saying no can be really,

Really kind.

Sometimes the kindest thing is to say,

Stop,

No,

This is not okay.

And that may not look kind,

You might think,

Oh,

Well,

I might hurt their feelings.

And you think I'm being kind by saying yes,

Or not being clear,

Because I might hurt this person's feelings.

But we absolutely need to say that no.

So kindness doesn't always look at like we might think they'll be conditioned to think it is.

I think that we really need to deeply get in touch with ourselves and our own authenticity,

To understand when we're coming from kindness and what kindness is.

It's a really real journey inward away from the ideas that we've been conditioned with,

And away from what a lot of people might think.

You really might be taken the wrong way when you're being very,

Very kind,

Because 95% of people would say,

Oh,

This would be the kind thing to do.

So this takes a lot of courage,

Actually,

To be truly kind.

Yes,

A lot of self-awareness,

As you said,

Yeah,

Really,

You really have to know where you're coming from and your motivations.

Yeah.

And yeah,

A lot of courage and bravery.

Yeah.

Exactly.

To seek our truth with kindness.

And that's the truth is of itself an act of kindness to the world.

So if I'm really with how I find it challenging,

I suppose,

In the world,

Something I find challenging about how the world is,

Is that there is a pretense sometimes of kindness or,

What's the word I'm looking for,

Kind of a people pleasing.

I'll act kind,

But it's so self-serving because it's like,

Well,

I'll act this way and then people will like me and not act fine.

And that's just supporting that egoic separateness,

Which is an act of violence,

Really,

To purport the idea that we're separate and yeah,

To just live from that face.

Whereas actually,

If I can risk,

If I can really risk being truthful,

And as you say,

Setting a banjo,

Even though that's really not okay with me or pulling somebody out on something that's really not an okay behavior,

Like a colleague who's making racist jokes or something,

Actually,

That's really not okay.

I don't think it's okay to speak that way.

And then it's really risky and really vulnerable.

And ultimately is a kinder act for myself or the other,

Who's maybe a bit unconscious in this area and for the world and is ultimately going to make the world a better place than if we're all just playing nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're just not being real when we're playing nice.

So we're not actually really meeting.

We're not meeting ourselves.

We're abandoning ourselves because we're not living from our authentic self.

And then we're not offering ourselves to be seen and to be met by others either.

So it can be a real loneliness when that's happening.

And it can be difficult.

Sometimes it takes having difficult conversations and difficult feelings coming up and it can be quite scary to relate in this authentic way.

But for me,

It's far more scary to stay in the nice arena and never really live and never really meet someone,

Never really show myself.

I like the nice arena that's making me laugh.

I think a lot of people could resonate with that.

I don't think I've ever said that before.

That just came out to me.

Sounds like it could be a chapter title for a book,

Claire.

Stepping out of the nice arena.

Yeah.

So instead of niceness,

You're talking about real kindness,

Which is inherently linked to authenticity.

Yes.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And with,

You know,

When you start really going deep enough,

Everything becomes a paradox,

You know,

So that might seem to someone like a kind of a paradox that being nice isn't kind necessarily,

For example.

Yeah.

Some other kind of paradox that I became aware of as you were speaking earlier was around separateness and interconnectedness.

So yes,

We were speaking about when we rest into a place of being,

There's a wholeness and an interconnectedness and we move out of the illusion of separation.

And I feel that feels like such a basic truth to my understanding.

And then there's also the place,

Because I know you're really,

You work a lot with boundaries and helping people really express their authentic boundaries,

Which brings us into an apparent place of separation.

So if I say no,

Or I don't agree with you,

It separates from me,

From you.

It differentiates who I am,

Who you are.

So could you say a little bit about these two different meanings of separation or how you make sense of that apparent paradox?

Yeah,

So this is really important,

Actually,

Because when we're talking about there's no separation and we're all one,

Then the spiritual bypassing can come in.

So an example I have of this is that when I was in India a couple of years ago,

I went to a guest house and could see that the blankets hadn't been cleaned.

I could tell that they needed washing and asking the person behind the desk,

Could I please have clean blankets?

And the woman saying to me,

In India being really spiritual country as well,

Madam,

Do not worry about this.

We are all one.

So it was beautiful what she's saying.

I'm saying,

Okay,

Yes,

We are all one.

It's beautiful that you're recognising that.

And I love India because people say these kinds of things all the time.

But actually,

You know,

That wasn't recognising my needs,

My individual needs.

And I needed those blankets to be clean.

And so that can happen quite easily.

So yeah,

There really is a need for me to say where I end and where you begin.

And the reality is we are living in these bodies,

And we need to stay safe and we need to stay healthy.

And so we need to have boundaries and to be able to say no.

And actually what it does when I can say no to you,

That means we now have a chance for real authentic connection.

If you ask me for a hug,

I always use this example.

If you say,

Nicola,

Can I have a hug?

And I don't really feel like giving you one.

But I say,

Oh,

Yes,

Okay,

You know,

Let's have a hug.

You know,

Where I might think something like,

Oh,

We're all one and it's all,

Everything's made of love.

And I'm going to be loving,

I'm going to be kind,

I'm going to be spiritually,

You know,

Going to hug this person.

And I put my arms around you in that moment when I've done that I've betrayed myself,

I've abandoned myself,

And I've actually abandoned you,

The chance of us meeting in a real place.

But if I say to you,

I don't feel like a hug right now.

Now you know what's real for me.

Now I can stay rooted in myself,

You can see where I am.

So you can meet me.

And now we can connect.

Now we can experience our shared being.

So we need a recognition of,

Of both of both.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's really helpful.

So there's that sense of the recognition of,

I would say,

Maybe difference that you and I are interconnected.

We're part of one consciousness,

But we're not the same.

And we're not merged.

And I think the spiritual bypassing really goes into a kind of unhealthy merged place.

As opposed to being a collection of differentiated and interconnected individuals.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I saw that that's something that I love about your work that you're really able to hold both,

You know,

The recognition of the individual needs and the greater awareness of,

Of oneness.

And then all the,

All the nuances of relating that happened within that state of being.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd love to know,

Nicola,

What brought you to this work?

Like,

How did you get here?

Yeah,

Well,

I was thinking about this.

I'm always thinking about this kind of stuff.

I was thinking about this recently when I was a child.

I must have been about nine,

I'd imagine.

There was,

So that was the eighties.

There was this magazine subscription.

I don't know if you remember,

It was a big thing in the UK.

I don't know if it was in Ireland in the eighties where you'd get like a big binder and you'd pay for a subscription and every week you could add to this binder and it would be honest,

Particular subject.

Anyway,

It was called know yourself.

And I saw it on a TV advert and thought I have to get that because I just wanted to know myself.

I was always really curious about how do I even exist?

What's this life all about?

How can this work?

How can I make this work well?

How can I understand this?

How can I understand myself?

It's really,

Really curious.

I think curiosity about life and myself,

That was very natural to me,

Very,

Very alive in me.

And so,

And then when I was about 10,

I asked for a Bible.

I grew up in a non-religious household and didn't really have anyone else around me who talked about spirituality or anything like that.

And it was just in me with all these questions and this curiosity about life and existence.

And so I thought,

Well,

It must be in this Bible,

You know,

That everyone's talking about,

They're talking about God.

And that was another really deep curiosity.

And get,

I remember like getting the Bible Christmas day and just couldn't wait till the evening where I could just be on my own to read it.

And so reading the first couple of pages and again,

Ah,

It's,

It's,

It's not telling me,

You know,

I thought the answers would be,

And I was like,

I don't understand it.

But anyway,

That's a bit of an aside.

So,

So I had these curiosities growing up and then realised that life is made of relationships.

And so became really curious about relationships and connecting with other people and how,

And just doing that in a slightly different way.

So not coming from the conditioned self,

But having so much curiosity that I would kind of do my relationships in a slightly different way than most people around me.

And then,

Then,

You know,

As I,

In my teenagers,

People started to come then into my life who were similar,

Who had curiosities and were coming from a,

Yeah,

A curiosity in a place that seemed to be deeper,

Some deeper questions they had.

And then,

And then I started really bringing that to,

To my work.

So I,

I designed an assertiveness course that was about 20 years ago now and brought that to people.

I thought this will be really,

Part of it is because I love freedom.

I love to see the people happy and healthy in the religious,

But they're free,

You know,

Free to be themselves,

Free to speak out.

Freedom's a really big value of mine.

I think because again,

It's my natural state of being is one of freedom.

You really are.

And just been really excited by seeing,

You know,

The 12 people in the training room who,

For the local council,

Who were just like enthralled that they could take these tools home and they could finally say no.

And they could,

So,

So,

So then I really started getting into how can I support people with their relationships in different ways.

And then really it's,

It's all stemmed from my curiosities,

What I have found to be most helpful for me,

And then learned about more about to then say,

I really wanted people to know this.

There's so many things I've learned in the past few years where I think I wish I knew this when I was a teenager.

And,

And so I'm like,

Right,

I'm just going to just learn as much as I can so I can,

I can pass it on.

So it's,

So it's,

It feels really organic the way it's happened,

The way my work has grown.

So it's coming from me,

But it's also responsive.

It's what I'm seeing people's needs around me,

How I can meet those needs with how,

What the curiosities arise in me and the things I'm learning from my life experience and from my trainings,

My ongoing professional development,

How that can meet what I'm seeing around me,

The needs of those around me.

And it's so exciting.

I feel so passionate about it.

It's really,

Really exciting and beautiful.

What would you say is your current kind of learning edge around relationships?

What are you meeting now?

What's the next challenge?

Do you mean personally speaking?

Well in the same really isn't it?

Well at the moment,

What I'm working with at the moment is a really good question.

I'm really glad you answered it.

You asked it.

At the moment I'm working with seeing my thoughts and my feelings.

So feeling the feelings that are arising in me and seeing the stories I might have around that feeling and not identifying with them.

So if a worry comes up,

A worrisome thought comes up in my mind and I feel a churny belly and then I start to kind of get into that story and that feeling to really just bring as much presence as I can to that and seeing that it's not who I am and this doesn't mean something about who I am.

This is actually an experience that's passing through and so it's really embracing the feeling,

Not trying to push it away,

Allowing the thoughts to be there but seeing them for what they are instead of getting lost in them and getting consumed.

And so I feel like I've been doing that since I was a teenager.

I've been practicing that but lately it seems to have gone up a level and it also seems like I'm having experiences that are giving me the opportunity to do that.

So really challenging experiences coming where I might be thinking something over in my mind and it's something difficult come up in a relationship with someone and I'm awake at 2am.

It happened last night.

So I was awake for an hour in bed,

Really saying,

Right Nicola,

Just bring everything you've ever learned to this moment to bring presence and to just allow myself to be free,

To just yeah as free as I can be here and as loving and kind without trying to get this perfect but just recognizing there is another way than being stuck in these mental emotional patterns.

Because it takes up so much energy that I could be using in other ways in my life.

So earlier right at the beginning of our time together now you were speaking about your relationship with yourself.

So I feel like I'm getting an example of what you meant by that here.

So yeah,

So there's a part of you who's in a loop,

You know,

And I suppose from my perspective now,

You can let me know if this resonates with you and my work as a somatic therapist,

I would think perhaps you'd gotten triggered into a trauma loop and there was some emotional and somatic and mental components to the trauma loop and when we're triggered like that,

It's so easy to get just sucked into it and we're just in it and we've merged with it and we just are that part of suffering.

So when I hear you say your practice is to bring your presence to the experience so that you can relate to it,

That feels really,

Really quite exciting and liberating.

I get the sense of,

Like you say,

There's the potential then to disidentify with the experience while also allowing the fullness of the experience,

Allowing the one who's suffering to suffer and being able to witness them from a place of presence so they're not alone in the suffering anymore.

Exactly,

That's exactly it and I work a lot with voice dialogue which is,

Voice dialogue is a kind of approach.

It sees the personality as a group of sub-personalities so it sees us as having different parts.

It's a bit similar to internal family systems which is quite popular at the moment and I find that really,

Really helpful as well for this.

So when we recognise that we have different parts feeling different things and even different parts of us have been developed to have different roles in our system.

So to give an example,

When I was a child I lived in a home where I had an angry father,

For example.

I might develop a part of me that knows how to please my father so that he doesn't get angry.

So I will develop this people pleaser part of me and that part does a job to help me survive when I'm younger.

But what happens is these parts of us,

They keep doing that job and then they start to get in the way.

So it's maybe when I was young that saved me,

You know,

It kept me safe but as I get older it's going to lead me into danger.

So in voice dialogue we can dialogue directly with the different parts of us and see what their job is,

How long they've been around in our system,

What they're trying to do for us because every part is trying to do something for us,

Is trying to make sense of the world and help us survive.

And so we can dialogue with that part and even sometimes negotiate with it,

We'll often negotiate with it and say,

You know,

The job you're doing is not probably working as well as you'd like it to be,

How might we be able to do this in a different way?

So that's a really amazing tool for recognising that these are different parts of me but it's not who I am.

So we might identify strongly with a certain part,

Like I might identify,

I know when I was in my teenage years especially that I'm a strong independent woman,

It's such a strong identity and I'm strong and independent and actually that sometimes then I wouldn't ask for help because of that.

So I just think,

You know,

I have to be this way and I'm strong and I'm independent but that's not who I really am,

There's a whole,

There are lots of different ways of being in the world and different ways I need to be to have my needs met,

To be,

To have a sense of belonging,

To let somebody help me sometimes.

So I find that voice dialogue's really helpful for seeing,

Okay,

This thought is not who I am,

This feeling,

This part is not who I am but it is part of me and it's included and so I can love those parts.

Yeah,

That's lovely.

I get a real sense of,

You know,

When you're saying about maybe because I identify,

You know,

Being a strong independent person,

That's my identity,

That's who I am and then the limitations of that,

You know,

That means I can't be vulnerable,

I can't ask for help,

I can't need something from somebody else.

I get such a sense of rigidity in my own system when I hear you speak to that,

You know,

And I know that place myself of feeling my own sort of rigid structures that say this is who I am,

You know,

And then I'm,

Means I'm not that and so what I'm not gets othered,

You know,

And then the judgement from then,

Oh that person is so weak or needy or vulnerable or always asking for help and I always have to help them and then you start falling into the different roles of,

You know,

Rescuer and victim and all.

The drama triangle,

Yeah.

I wonder,

Would you like to speak about that?

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's something I hold a workshop on,

The drama triangle,

Because it's so helpful.

So one of the themes I work with is understanding relationship dynamics and so the drama triangle is such a common human dynamic in our relationships and it happens within us and it happens between us.

So you have the rescuer,

The victim and the persecutor roles and once you're in the triangle you might start off as the victim,

Believing you're a victim in a situation or in a relationship but it very quickly we move in,

We can move into persecutor role from that place or somebody might,

Or then we might move into rescuer,

Somebody might rescue us and then we go into victim in response if they start to rescue us and we find that disempowering,

Somebody might be trying to rescue or fix us.

So yeah,

It's incredible to bring awareness to that,

To those three different roles and how they can play out and we tend to have a sort of a favourite,

We tend to have one that would be more default for us,

Often it's from our history,

From our childhood but once we're in that dynamic it's very easy to get caught in it,

Just moving around the roles.

Bringing awareness is the first step to stepping off.

Yes and I like how you're saying that's something that can happen within a person or within a relationship and I suppose even at a wider level,

A societal level.

Yeah,

You can see it between countries in the political arena,

You know,

Once you see it,

You see it everywhere,

It really is everywhere but just really,

Really helpful to know about.

So another arena,

We've got our kindness arena,

We've got our trauma triangle arena,

Yeah and what I'm enjoying is,

As we speak about the parts,

All the different parts and the different roles,

Is hearing you say repeatedly,

You know,

I'm not that,

You know,

I'm not that,

I'm not the role of the rescuer,

I'm not that caught,

I'm having,

I'm not,

Yeah,

This set of feelings or,

You know,

So I find as I,

Every time I hear you say I'm not that,

I find myself kind of sitting back into a greater field of love,

Which is the ground of my being,

All that it means that you spoke earlier.

Yeah,

Well that's really beautiful and in this place of here is the truth of who I am,

Actually this is the I am,

That can contain all these other parts,

Love and acceptance,

Nothing needs to be bypassed or denied or ignored or repressed or,

You know,

Everything is welcome from this place.

Exactly,

Yeah,

Everything is welcome,

Yeah,

That's really important and it seems like it's counter-intuitive,

Well how can I welcome this part of me that's just,

I find so awful,

How can I welcome that,

But we really need to welcome all parts of ourselves,

However much we dislike them and welcome all our feelings,

However difficult they are to be with,

So when the resistance is there and,

You know,

That's how addictions,

You know,

This is really talked about a lot at the moment,

Gabomate,

Which a lot of people probably have heard of,

Talks about addiction and how that's a turning away from our trauma and our pain,

We don't know how to be with it and so we turn away from it toward drink,

Toward drugs,

Towards relationships in order to avoid that and then we find ourselves in self-destructive addictions and behaviours.

So the welcoming is really important if we're to stay in our,

To stay healthy.

Yeah,

I feel like I'm kind of,

I'm with something that isn't in words yet,

I'm trying to just stay with it,

But it's something around,

Yeah,

That place of trauma and addiction,

Like a particular field of energy,

Another arena,

Right,

The difficulty of staying with,

Sometimes the impossibility of staying with the suffering,

Born of trauma and the necessity,

As you were saying,

All our passions have served a purpose,

With the necessity at times of turning towards an addiction,

Whether it's a substance or a behaviour or whatever,

Because we can't be with the trauma.

And then with how you speak about the process you were in last night of coming into presence to the part of you that was stuck in a trauma loop and I feel a little eureka moment,

You know,

It's like,

Ah,

You know,

So how can we be unbearable?

You know,

How can we not turn towards the numbings and the addictions and the violence and the acting out of all the things we do when we can't bear the suffering and we can't bear the trauma?

You know,

How can we,

How can we do something else?

So when you talk about coming into relationship to the part of you that's suffering,

Bringing in your presence,

Which is the I am,

Which is the beingness to relate to the ones who are suffering.

It's like,

If something opens up,

It's like a little,

Ah,

Here's another possibility.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's something other than the suffering or the numbness.

There's the possibility of presence.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Beautifully put.

Well,

Thank you for feeding me the ingredients to put it together.

That's really exciting.

And it kind of really,

Yeah,

There's a new understanding that me around your work actually and what you offer and how the spirit,

The everyday spirituality,

You know,

How the spirituality is not even interwoven with all your offerings,

But is the container for all your offerings.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a really good way of putting it actually.

And I notice how,

Ah,

That feels,

I can feel this kind of expansive feeling in my body as you say that,

Because that's really hit the spot,

That it's the container for the offering.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel that expansion as well.

I have a real sense of us both here together in a state of interconnected oneness and love.

Yeah.

Hmm.

I would really love to read a poem.

I think what time is it?

We're probably going to finish soon.

Yeah.

Because,

You know,

I wrote this about three years ago and I don't write a lot of poetry,

But I wrote this and it's,

I think the best thing I've ever,

Way I've ever expressed all of what we've been talking about in just a few words.

So I really want to,

It's called,

It's called Simply Love.

What if nothing is wrong?

What if all that is present is complete perfection and we can feel joy right now for free,

No cost,

No catch,

Whatever else is here.

And all we need is our own permission.

Our hearts are broken.

What if this is how they open?

Crunchy cracks that let in more love,

More light,

More breath,

More life.

Let out the essence of who we really are.

What if the pain that sometimes almost fills us is the growing pain of our soul?

The eternal adventurer that takes form for fun forgets itself for the thrill of play,

Mystery and remembering back to wholeness.

What if death is simply the waking from a dream and those beloved ones whose eyes open before ours smile at the illusion of distance,

Dance with us in truth of existence?

What if all is simply love?

That's just the best question.

What if all is simply love?

What if all is simply love?

I feel like I can't finish this interview with asking you about your musical career.

This is all of the parallel careers.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And visitors to my website will see that there's a whole section on music.

So I've been writing and singing songs for a long time now,

Since my early 20s,

Since around the time that we met.

And yeah,

It's a big part of who I am and how I express myself.

And at the moment,

I'm working on a four song EP,

Which will be released shortly.

So I haven't released something for many,

Many years.

So I'm really excited about that.

So it kind of feels like it's taking on new life and new direction.

So we'll see what happens next.

But yeah,

I love singing and playing music and performing.

But obviously lately,

It's been difficult to perform out in the world.

But we'll see what happens as things change now.

I'm so delighted to hear that.

I look forward to listening to your EP.

Thank you.

I notice I don't want to miss you.

Is there anything else you'd like to say?

No,

That's wonderful.

Thanks so much for this lovely conversation.

Yeah,

I really enjoyed it.

Me too.

Such a pleasure.

I'm really,

Really at home in myself after speaking.

And really with my heart,

Really.

Yeah,

Me too.

Well,

We'll say goodbye for now.

Yeah,

Thanks,

Gwen.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.