Courage With Fear (What Is Now? Podcast)

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

I was struck by,

In that time,

How that seems to me to be such a space of discovery,

Or at least can be.

Closing my eyes and sitting in silence.

There's so much that just feels like it's shooting to the quote unquote surface.

Maybe in a certain state.

There's times in which I'll sit in silence,

And I'm just thinking about what I need to do that day or certain things that are ongoing in my life and that feels a bit less like an area of discovery,

More like a rehashing or preparing or controlling for worry or something like that.

But somehow this other space,

Which I felt like I was just in this total discovery,

And then I move into something that's less discovery,

I might attach to one of those things that pops up and then I go with it or maybe I start planning what I might say.

And I'm sort of out of the space of discovery and then it can be really fun to drop that and then open back up and then there's going to be all sorts of different stuff that arises.

Like that was one.

Just the thought of that feels like there's so much to discover here and then there was images kind of like a sort of flower twisting and blooming.

And just feels like there's so much there.

So I think I can totally relate to that.

What you're saying is that in that time of silence,

And when we do this practice of one minute silence and being in the now,

Then there is this,

Although there are moments of being in the now,

But there are also moments of getting away from the now and maybe thinking about,

Okay,

What to discuss or what to talk about.

But then going back to that state of being in the now and I can totally relate with that because this is like I think this happens with me almost every time.

And I think this subconsciously or consciously there is this kind of goal inside my mind that for,

Whenever we do this in our future sessions for that one minute or whatever time we are spending in this now zone,

I just stay in the now and not think about what I'm going to talk next.

So what was that for you today?

What was that thought of,

You know,

What was that now experience or what was that thought about that?

What do you want to discuss or talk about?

It kind of turned out being what I did say.

I think it just manifested in a couple different ways of what I might say of,

Wow,

There's so much here to discover.

Also,

Okay,

A little bit different towards the very beginning of it.

I think I was noticing that feeling of discovery and just wow,

There's so much here.

And so initially kind of grabbed on to that,

And it was thinking of what I would want to say about this and something I was starting to develop was how kind of how different it feels relative to that other space.

Or how it's like you're on a different plane,

Like dropping out of this,

As I'm thinking now it feels kind of like narrow,

And then it opens up and then comes back to something that's very sort of narrow,

And then moves back to this,

My hands are coming together and then going like way out,

And then something pops in to that open space and then I zoom in on it and I become narrowed in on that.

And then there's the possibility of opening back up to,

And when I open back up there's so much more that's shooting to the surface because I've made more space to it,

But then I will inevitably come to one of those and stay with it.

And certainly when you're in conversation or interaction,

Maybe impossible,

Or I want to see what you think to stay within that spacious area or maybe we can just kind of move back and forth continuously.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I think what I feel is that it's kind of,

You know,

Fear,

The state of being in fear versus,

You know,

The state of maybe presence,

Or you know,

Or love or whatever you want to call it.

Like there are two different states that we are talking about that we are kind of switching between you know it's kind of this on and off state where one state is of total discovery and when you said that thing when you said that statement you know that there is so much hair now,

The image that came to my mind is like,

You know,

A boy in a candy shop,

You know,

We're saying wow there is so much hair,

But like kind of a treasure that is there in this moment of so many things that can arise from this moment you know it's like a chest,

A treasure chest which you,

If we totally stay here,

We can experience that treasure.

However,

The fear of,

The fear of whether,

You know,

We will be able to make use of that treasure makes us not be with that treasure I don't know if you're getting this.

What I'm trying to say is,

Like if you just bring this picture into your mind this visual that you know that the boy is with the treasure,

You know let's let's forget the candy shop but let's talk about a treasure chest.

And this boy has encountered pressure.

Now you know this there is this treasure chest and there are a lot of,

You know,

These wonderful pieces of treasure in this chest.

And this boy is like,

Wow,

There is so much here.

But,

So that is mindfulness that is being in the moment.

But when the boy starts thinking about,

Oh,

What will I do with this treasure.

That's kind of getting out of that state of enjoying the treasure itself.

So maybe some fear that I won't know what to do with it or I won't be able to use it in the way that I should.

So then,

What is it like,

Do you think,

Kind of disregarding the treasure,

What might that mean.

Where do you go,

Do you just like turn your back on it do you forget about it do you shut the treasure chest closed.

Yeah,

It's like kind of taking your attention away from the treasure chest or like shutting it closed because you even have like fears like whether you have thoughts like whether this is treasure or not.

You know,

It might just might be some trap or something or this might be,

You know,

Someone like someone has just placed this treasure in front of me to test me or all these thoughts all these stories that I'm making up is making me away go away from you know making me go away from that treasure.

It's like,

You know,

You give something to someone you give this treasure to someone but they are rather than enjoying it you are like they're scared of it,

Because they're making up all these stories in their mind.

You know,

This might be a trap or you know what will I do with this whether this is real treasure or not whether this is real diamond or not you know all these thoughts are like making them suffer.

So if you're just watching this series,

I think we talked about that.

And,

You know,

I think I recommended the series to you.

So on Netflix and it's called Messiah.

So in that series there is an episode and in that episode there is a scene.

It's a beautiful scene and in this where this,

You know,

Character,

This figure of Messiah,

Who is like a,

You know,

Spiritual person but people start considering him as the second coming of the Jesus everything.

So this person,

You know,

There is a person,

There is this person Messiah and then there is a follower of this person so the follower of this person comes to Messiah and ask him,

Asks him,

What next what are we going to do next you know,

Where will you take your followers where will you go and all that.

So then this Messiah figure,

You know,

Tells to the to his follower that,

You know,

Today morning I saw a bird.

And there was this bird and I saw,

You know,

It is summertime but there was frost on the grass.

But this bird came and this bird drank from the frost.

And,

You know,

It flew away and it enjoyed that.

But if it would have been a human being,

The human being would have thoughts,

Multiple thoughts in their mind.

How do I see frost in summertime,

You know,

How has it come there and all those things.

So basically not enjoying the frost,

But having all these questions in the mind that where has this come from and you know,

The kind of suffering in the mind.

And it was I think it was a beautiful example because that's how you know being mindful and not being mindful is that we kind of ruminate on things.

And you know we kind of put so many questions in our mind about things that are right in front of us,

But we don't enjoy those things.

We don't enjoy the moment and the kind of.

I think that is,

That's what's in my mind about all this discussion.

Yeah.

I love the use of imagery because it can,

At least for me it can stay with me so much in a much more ingrained and accessible way than in words or a more kind of intellectual explanation,

Because I can grasp.

I think,

Pages and pages worth of discussion in relation to the message of seeing the bird.

You know,

Take a sip from the frost on the grass,

Versus potentially,

You know,

Thinking about why is there frost here or whatever that might be there could be a whole book kind of contained by that visual message and like,

You don't need the other stuff to stay with that image and it can be applied to any situation,

You know what is the frost here,

What would be forgetting about any wonderings or worries about why Frost is here and what would be just like taking a sip and moving on.

In this moment,

If it's in an interaction or if it's in some fear that I have or if it's in with my work or whatever it is.

That's why,

You know,

I think that's why these,

What you talked about previously,

I think Zen Koans,

They work really well because,

You know,

That single story kind of gives you,

You know,

This entire teaching which can be told in multiple pages or in an entire book.

So,

Yeah,

That's really helpful.

I think that's where maybe the book might even take you astray from what it is that we really might be after here,

Especially in like the world of Zen or mindfulness or where it's this ungraspable thing to get caught up in this notion of progress or learning or just read as many books as I can gain more information,

Maybe I'm actually moving myself further away from the essence of this thing that can be totally captured in an image or a statement,

Like a Koan that just tries to snap you out of your ingrained conditioned way of seeing the world and then you can see through that into this spacious place and it's like,

Whoa.

Yeah.

And then also taking away,

Taking us away from the experience itself,

Right?

So,

Like,

For example,

You're talking about reading.

So,

When we read,

Read,

Read,

You know,

It's kind of getting that information that is already there out in the world,

Kind of old information from someone else.

And that too in the form of words,

In the form of language,

Which we have already talked about that how that limits our perception,

You know,

Our understanding of something.

But rather than giving more importance to experiencing,

You know,

Visuals,

So stories are a better level than that,

You know,

The visuals that we are talking about are better than the words,

But even better than that is the direct experience of something,

You know,

For example,

We are talking about,

Let's say you,

We are talking about shamanic ceremonies.

Now,

Either we can read a book on shamanic ceremonies,

Or we can,

You know,

Read stories on that fiction,

Or maybe we can see visuals of shamanic ceremonies that will be even better.

But I think what will be the best will be the experience of shamanic ceremonies by,

You know,

By going there and experiencing it ourselves.

So a lot of times we,

Yes,

I do feel that a lot of times,

This,

This overload of information also takes us away from the experience of things.

That makes me think of the potential fear related to the treasure chest.

Maybe it's obvious that in that situation,

Just to go to the shamanic ceremony or to take part of it,

Or to take part in it is experiencing the treasure.

But maybe that interacts with some fear that's there about it,

Which could look many different ways,

But to read about it or to,

To sort of experience it at a distance.

Yeah,

Is a way of engaging with it with less fear,

But you're also kind of guaranteeing that you can't actually have the treasure,

You can just sort of conceptualize it,

Imagine what it might be like from a place that's more secure,

But it's not actually experiencing it.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's true.

That's true.

Yeah,

Totally,

Because it is the fear that is stopping me from experiencing it and that's why I first want to read about it.

You know,

Maybe for example,

I'm fearful of the shamanic ceremony itself.

You know,

There are fears around it.

So what I'm doing is,

I'm just reading about that and that's comfortable for me.

I'm kind of in my comfort zone by reading about it and then talking about it with people.

But my,

You know,

I think the experience of it requires a certain level of bravery,

A certain level of,

You know,

Coming out of the comfort zone and me traveling to,

You know,

For example,

Latin America,

Peru or some place like that and experiencing that shamanic ceremony myself.

That requires courage.

I think courage also comes into the picture.

So I think mindfulness then or experiencing this treasure also has some relation to courage.

What do you think about that?

I would agree.

I was just wondering,

Have you experienced a shamanic ceremony?

I have experienced one of its kind,

Like one of those ceremonies.

So that was a shamanic darkness retreat.

And I think it was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life,

Because it,

It helped me overcome the fear of darkness.

And trust me,

Like,

Since my childhood,

I was very scared of darkness,

Very,

Very scared of darkness.

Yeah,

And because that's because,

You know,

I've been seeing a lot of horror movies since my childhood and,

You know,

My cousins and we had this tradition in the family of scaring people in the dark and you know,

Talking about ghosts and all that.

So that made me release,

You know,

That was really,

I was really afraid of it.

But when I and thankfully,

I didn't read about this shamanic darkness retreat,

Because if I would have read about it,

I would not have been about it for sure.

Because it was seven days in total darkness.

And just reading about it would have given me more fear.

And I would not have done it.

Thankfully,

When I went to this retreat,

I didn't know what it is about.

What was it like for you when you realized what it was like?

It was,

It was very scary for the first day.

And I was like,

I was claustrophobic,

I was,

You know,

Experiencing this intense fear and,

You know,

Kind of this frustration and resistance towards it.

And I was like,

Okay,

I cannot do this.

The first day,

I was like,

I cannot do this,

You know,

And I was kind of,

You know,

Fighting with the person who brought me to that retreat.

And,

You know,

You didn't tell me that this is about darkness and all that.

And,

And they were like,

Just stay quiet and just experience it,

You know.

And so the first day was painful for me in that sense.

But gradually,

You know,

Some beautiful things started coming up.

And I started realizing that I'm actually becoming aware of my fears.

You know,

I'm actually becoming aware of what's and not only the fears,

They were a lot of things that came from inside.

I think darkness has this beautiful effect on you.

And we as a society are conditioned to fear darkness.

And you know,

And that's why we don't use the benefit of darkness.

And it's so beautiful that when there's total darkness all around you,

There is no option but to go within.

Right?

So,

And a lot of things,

It's like a natural state of meditation,

Like,

But we do everything to go within,

Right,

We close our eyes,

We find that space for ourselves.

And then we stress it for hours.

And you know,

We do this,

We do that.

And then maybe somehow we connect to something deeper within us.

But when you are in that total darkness,

There is no option but to go within.

And you won't believe,

Like,

There were so many insights about myself in that darkness,

You know,

When that first day ended almost towards the end of that first day,

That I realized that this is self inquiry,

This is,

You know,

Me knowing myself like anything,

You know,

I haven't experienced such a thing before.

And I knew those things about,

You know,

In during that entire period,

I knew so much about myself,

That was,

I think,

The first time,

I was more aware of myself.

And I got so many insights about myself.

Sounds amazing.

It makes me think of the value of moving into fear,

And maybe through having such an experience,

Where I guess,

Fortunately,

You were sort of thrown into it without the awareness,

Because maybe otherwise,

You wouldn't have pushed yourself into it.

Yeah.

That then,

Through such an intense experience like that,

Maybe you're,

You gain a lot of trust in in your ability to be able to withstand anything.

And then it comes,

It becomes sort of an automatic pull toward discomfort and fear.

Because you can see that,

Well,

If I just sit with it and experience it,

Then I'm going to learn about it and transcend it in some way.

And then that,

That can just become more and more expanded from what potentially might be a confined rigid way of living in fear,

To potentially move into that increases the confidence that I'll be with a able to withstand anything.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Because we think that we will not be able to withstand it.

But when we are in it,

There is resistance for a lot of time,

There is pain.

But if you stay longer,

Then it goes away gradually,

Then you start experiencing the beauty of that.

Because then there is also this sense of achievement,

The sense of overcoming your fear.

Right?

And that's powerful.

Just having a thought of maybe that might occur in a way in which you just discover you're still withstanding it through being in it for a period of time and just thinking about how awful it is,

And ruminating on it or feeling pain in some way.

And then at some point,

Maybe just dawns on you,

Like,

Oh,

I'm still,

I'm not feeling pain at this moment,

Or I'm not worrying at this moment,

Which is could be a really profound discovery.

But only through staying with that for long enough.

Yeah.

I'm wondering what,

What you think of in terms of,

Like,

When you mentioned some,

Some sources of that fear,

Potentially,

From different things growing up,

But what do you think of in terms of a fear in darkness,

Like,

What comes up or what is the fear of?

I certainly feel that too,

I've historically been very afraid of the dark,

Especially as a kid growing up,

And even beyond that,

And still,

But I,

I think maybe through some sort of similar process that we both undergone in our own different ways.

I see that as something interesting to stay with this,

Like,

My body might be overtaken by this sort of tingling terror feeling and then I noticed all sorts of images pop up in my mind of what might be there or population and probably have many things but a very sort of powerful feeling at the same time to just stay there and even kind of invite that in to,

To become more powerful or even if there is something,

Of course there isn't logically something there but even if there is even like asking that to show yourself,

Or something like that.

Yeah,

You know that reminds me of a wonderful,

I think I have maybe mentioned this before,

But that reminds me of a wonderful quote from Batman Begins,

In that you know,

There is this character,

This villain who says that you,

You fear what you don't understand.

And I think that's a powerful statement,

Because this is what darkness is.

We don't understand it.

We haven't experienced it.

And that's why there is this fear of uncertainty that what will happen,

You know,

In that state.

But the more we stay in that state,

The more we become comfortable with it.

And then we understand it,

And then we know it,

And then there is no more fear.

And,

You know,

Again,

The irony is,

You know,

In the third part of this,

You know,

This series of movies by Christopher Nolan,

The third part is The Dark Knight Rises,

In which,

You know,

In this I think most of the people would know this,

You know,

This character of Bane,

Who,

You know,

And there is the scene when Bane is fighting the Batman.

And,

You know,

Batman,

Like kind of uses some device to,

You know,

When they're fighting,

Batman uses a device to cause darkness all around them,

You know,

So that's what it is of the light.

And Bane says that,

Oh,

You think darkness is your ally?

You have just learned to be in it.

I was born in it.

You know,

And then he finds him in the dark.

You merely adopted the dark.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

So that's kind of,

You know,

Very fitting in this situation,

Because that makes us realize that if we decide to be in it more,

Then that becomes our power,

You know,

And then you will be the one who will not be afraid of darkness.

But other people will,

And not in sense of any competition,

You know,

Or any sense of being better than someone,

But it's just that you have this kind of advantage as a human being of understanding and experiencing something which others cannot.

And that's why I feel that this night time,

You know,

Is very interesting to me.

Although,

You know,

I totally,

I'm subscribed to all this,

You know,

System and understanding that we should sleep well,

And you know,

We should sleep early and wake up early and all that.

But I feel that for me personally,

You know,

Night has been really beautiful.

This darkness has a beauty to it,

This darkness has a mysticism to it.

You know,

When I go out in the,

And you know,

This is my regular practice that I do,

Is that at night,

I go either to,

I go to a secluded place,

And this is kind of my effort to overcome,

Although I have not overcome it totally yet.

This is kind of my effort to overcome this fear of darkness,

Where at night I go to a,

You know,

There is a lake here in Vancouver,

I go to that place at night,

And there is no one there,

You know,

That lake is in the middle of the forest.

And,

Or when I was in Victoria,

I would go to this,

You know,

Hill that was called Mount Oremi and there was no one there at,

You know,

One or two in the night.

But,

So initially,

When I start walking towards this lake or you know,

To this place,

I'm totally fearful.

There are so many fears that are coming up,

Oh,

What might happen,

You know,

Oh,

What if there is some criminal there who might attack me in the night?

Or what if I,

You know,

There is some extra-terrestrial alien there who might encounter and all these things.

But the more I go,

When I go there,

And when I'm sitting there for like,

One hour or half an hour or one hour or so,

That becomes the most insightful time for me.

And when I meditate in that time,

That meditation is better than any daytime meditation I have done.

Because there is nobody there,

There is pure silence,

There is darkness and in that darkness,

A lot of things come out of your inner selves,

You know,

And your,

Like your subconscious speaks to you and you get so many insights.

I'm just sitting with the image of you at the lake.

And yeah,

There's beauty to that.

I was just thinking too of the,

Speaking of the treasure and the worried thoughts.

Those worried thoughts again,

Being like,

There might be aliens there,

Or you know,

Something like that.

Yeah,

Animals,

Criminals are all these thoughts.

But then some willingness or urge to just simply notice those as thoughts that will inevitably arise and continue moving into the treasure.

I'm thinking the treasure there too,

There's maybe some letting go of its instrumental value,

And just experiencing it for what it is and it's like,

It's being used as you're experiencing it,

If that makes sense,

Versus on finding the treasure.

So I'm going to go hoard it and be able to buy stuff with it.

Maybe that's a fear too potentially of having it and having to use it at the same time.

It's like,

Versus maybe some security of,

Well,

I want the treasure,

But I want to have it with me and build it up,

Stack it up.

So I have some sense of security versus maybe this is the kind of treasure that you get it and you immediately use it.

It's not like you're getting something else for it,

But it's like,

It's the pinnacle of experience.

Yeah,

You cannot take it anywhere.

Like,

For example,

If you're talking about the darkness,

You cannot take it with you during the day.

So it's just there and you experience it and you just come back.

Yeah,

I think that's very similar to what you said,

You know,

When you're talking about treasure,

I think what also comes to mind is the idea of money that how people relate to money,

Like holding up and not maybe enjoying it as it comes not flowing with it,

And kind of holding up and worrying about.

I think this also talks a lot about how we use our finances and how we enjoy our finances versus how we make our finances,

You know,

Make us more stressed by holding them and worrying about the future.

I've heard a differentiation between money and wealth,

And how money maybe can be a representation or a marker of wealth,

But it also could be a total lack of wealth,

Depending on what role it plays in your life or how it is that you use it,

And lots of other things can be markers of wealth and that maybe as a society.

Well,

Not to throw a blanket statement,

But it can be easy to confuse wealth from money,

That money is wealth.

Yeah,

Right.

Right.

Yeah,

No,

I think even I believe is just one aspect of wealth.

You know,

There are so many other things to that relationships,

You know,

Love,

We are talking about abundance in general,

Health,

You know,

Peace of mind.

So I think this is all wealth,

But money is just one single aspect of that is.

I was thinking of one thing in relation to the experience of darkness that is kind of fun for me,

Too,

Along the lines of what we've already been saying,

But so I just have this image of me,

Maybe hearing a noise from downstairs when I'm in bed,

And I go down to just check on it.

And inevitably in my mind,

There's images that pop up or,

I mean,

I assume the biggest part of me assumes that it's just some noise that can't really be traced back or I can figure out what it was and it's just some innocuous thing.

But I kind of enjoy,

To some extent,

Thinking of some really bad thing that might happen,

Maybe there is someone there that's going to come at me with a knife or something like that,

And then just kind of moving along with that but not in a way that's that's terrified or resistant,

But it's just,

Well,

If that's the reality,

Then what am I going to do?

Or it will be whatever it is,

And then I'll have to act.

I don't know what I'm going to act like,

But I'll have to interact with it.

And is it that bad?

I don't know,

Because then it would just be what it is and I would adapt to it.

And maybe they would injure me severely.

Maybe I would die if I was dead.

There wouldn't be a need to know that I was dead.

This may sound callous or potentially minimizing of what someone else might be afraid of,

But I often find that there's some relief there in,

Well,

If it is that awful thing,

That would also just be what is and I would interact with it.

It's more scary just me thinking about it or worrying about it,

Then potentially,

Even if there was someone that was threatening my life,

That would just be what is.

Yeah,

And it might be,

It also might be,

You know,

If let's say that happens,

Let's say you are in the dark at night,

And let's say,

You know,

You hear a sound and there is like this kind of a thief or someone in your house who has entered and,

You know,

Is attacking you.

Now,

Till the point of time you didn't encounter that thief,

You had a fear of this,

This intense fear.

But maybe when you encounter that thief,

Maybe because now you are face to face with it,

That fear goes away.

Right?

Maybe you will find that that thief is dumb.

And maybe you can easily kind of,

You know,

Overcome the situation or maybe,

You know,

That attack,

Let's say even,

You know,

To think about,

You know,

Worst case worst case scenarios,

Let's say that thief attacks you or stabs you in your arm or something like that.

So,

Then you are like,

Okay,

You know,

I was so scared of being attacked by this thief,

But it's just a wound on my arm.

You know,

And that's okay.

Why I was so scared of it.

So,

I think the experience of it also helps us move and overcome our fears.

You know,

We are as again,

You know,

Again,

That statement comes to my mind,

What we fear,

What we don't understand,

And until and unless we experience that thing,

We will keep fearing it.

So,

I think the only solution to overcome that fear is to experience it.

And I think still,

I think there is something,

You know,

Which I still have like a lot of fear about is closed spaces and claustrophobia.

And,

You know,

And I'm so resistant to experiencing it.

Like,

I just can't think of being in a closet or something,

You know,

Because,

And I can totally now I can totally understand like it's because it's easier said than done.

You know,

When you when you say that,

Oh face your fears,

It's so difficult,

You know,

I think maybe darkness is easy for me,

But not for you that much.

But maybe closed spaces are easier for you,

But not for me.

I think it's all depends upon what our fears are.

If I think about then darkness is easier for me.

But if I think about closed spaces,

I am scared like anything,

But I know at a deeper level to overcome that fear,

I have to experience it.

But it's very scary.

But if you do it,

If you step into that fear,

That you would,

Yeah,

That's your victory.

That's when you overcome that.

I guess it would be a question of if that's something you want,

Or,

Or not.

And if maybe you're lying to yourself,

Or if it's actually just accepting of,

I'm afraid of that,

And I choose not to do that.

Or I want to overcome that.

Yeah,

It's a matter of choice as well.

Yeah.

But I'm just thinking that,

How will it help if I not choose to experience it?

I'm just thinking about that.

Because,

Like,

I will be just then kind of postponing it,

Isn't it?

Postponing that experience,

And when they might come up with a thing that comes up,

And you have no choice but to experience it,

It makes me think of stoic,

Like stoic practice of just subjecting yourself to all these uncomfortable situations.

So that when that situation arises,

We've already done it yourself.

And it's not,

It's not scary anymore.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And I can think of it,

And it has happened with me because,

You know,

I think I slightly overcome with the experience,

But I was once trapped in a,

In an elevator.

And I think that was the most horrific experience of my life.

I was trapped for 25 minutes or so.

And I feel that if I would have made myself comfortable with it,

I would have been my experience,

It would not have been that horrific for me.

If I would have put myself again and again in those situations,

In similar kind of situations when I'm in such close place,

Space.

Is there a way in which it seems to you that you fear what you don't understand applies in that scenario?

Yeah,

Because I have,

Because I have not experienced that.

That's why I fear it,

Right?

If now there are two ways I can experience it,

Either I will experience it willingly,

Or I will experience it unwillingly.

And it might just happen to me.

But when I experience it unwillingly,

And it just happens to me,

There will be resistance to it,

Right?

And that resistance will make me suffer.

So if I take this example of elevators,

Let's say,

You know,

I was in that elevator unwillingly,

Where I got trapped.

I was not prepared for that.

And that resistance of not wanting to be here was horrific.

And that caused my suffering.

But if somehow I could have,

You know,

I don't know how,

But if somehow I could have practiced of being trapped,

You know,

Willingly,

That would have made my experience less horrific.

And that would have made me resist it less when it actually happened.

Right.

I can imagine there's that element of not knowing when you're going to get out that could make it challenging to accept it,

Too,

Versus if you knew this was,

You're going to be there all day,

Then it would probably be easier to move into a place of acceptance,

Even if it still feels really bad.

But you don't know,

It might be opened in the near future.

And,

Or it might be a long time.

And so it's really in that place of uncertainty.

Yeah,

Maybe maybe I could have,

You know,

If I would have practiced it willingly,

I could have sit in the elevator and meditated and practiced meditating.

Here's an opportunity to say,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Utilizing that time and meditating.

So that might have made my experience when it actually happened better.

And,

Yeah,

I think,

You know,

I'm thinking of,

You know,

Thinking of ways how can I experience that and overcome that.

There is an interesting thing.

I think there's this thing that I was really scared of going to,

But I think,

Deep down,

I want to do it to overcome my fears.

It's called I think I think you would know that float tank.

Yeah,

I've done one.

You've done?

How was your experience?

I loved it.

For me,

It's scary.

Because it's in a closed space.

But I think now I feel like I should do it to overcome that fear.

Yeah,

That could be a good context to it,

Or for it.

Because maybe it's a little better,

Or more scary than you putting yourself in a closet because you can easily leave at any point in time or it might be uncertain.

And in that situation,

You sort of have this certain set period of time you're being placed in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

So we were talking about darkness and you mentioned your fear of darkness but like just my curiosity,

What is for you what is that fear which you know which which you would say,

Which is most intense.

In terms of any fear.

Yeah.

They've definitely dwindled.

I have some fear of deep water or the ocean,

Generally,

Which I think is related to darkness.

This vast unknown and there's stuff that might,

You know,

Come and get you.

Or you might be swallowed up into it.

It used to still is to some degree but used to be having eyes on me,

Or having presenting or speaking in either in front of groups or even small groups of people I still feel that now,

But it's certainly a fear that I think I've overcome to a significant degree,

But used to be one that was very crippling.

And how did you overcome that.

I think just through exposing myself to it again and again.

In one way I was sort of forced to because when I went to my,

My doctoral program.

I didn't realize this but part of my acceptance was to teach an undergrad course that was part of the funding of my program.

And so then I'm having to teach a class of 50 to 100 people,

Which is like holy shit for me at that time.

But then I had to,

I just had to do it.

And so I started out with having every last line prepared,

Down to the filler words.

Like all of it was just be reading essentially and practicing it many many times before,

And then I think that went a long way to help me just kind of kind of like what we've been describing to stay with that uncomfortable feeling to the point that something shifts and there's just like a physical trust that you're,

You'll be able to withstand it,

I'm not going to fall apart or dissolve.

If I stay here for long enough.

And I think of righty things through this whole realm of self awareness meditation mindfulness it's like there's a natural draw to kind of question my conditioning and my views about myself and my fears and that's led into my relationships with other people,

And just,

I think this,

The willingness to trust this stuff that we discover has allowed me to feel more relaxed when there's eyes on me,

And I have,

And maybe also this,

This,

This idea of working through what might happen.

And I think there's a feared situation in which I might look like I don't know what I'm talking about or I stumble over my words or I lose my train of thought,

And I can consider that and I really don't care.

At this point,

If that happens,

And I feel fine.

Even if I had to stop talking,

Or I could comment on it,

Or whatever it feels like there's no consequence there but that used to be a really scary consequence.

I think a fear to sometimes I think,

And maybe we can shift into a practice.

Or think of I think can be a sort of helpful framework with regard to stuff that I fear you tell me what you think about this but thinking of myself as if I was in a movie.

And what I would want that character to do in that situation,

Or what I would feel proud of if that was me in that role or,

Or what would make just make clear sense for that,

That character that I feel like I really am at my core to do.

And then there's some relief in that,

Like,

If,

If there was a robber I would face them,

And I would try to defend myself and I would try to protect someone in the house,

And I don't know if I would be able to do that but I would like,

I would at least be proud of trying.

Yeah.

Or in any situation that would come up like that,

What would I feel proud of doing even if I don't know if I can do it well I could at least stand up to something or try or,

Or if there's someone that's being a bully to someone else or if there's someone poorly,

If I was watching that,

What would I want that character to do I would want them to like say something,

Or stand up to them,

Even if they're intimidating or if that might mean something that would impact me negatively,

That would clearly be the thing to do,

Even if I don't know how it would turn out,

But that's just like a useful little kind of mind thing that I like to think of.

And for me it is like similar to yours,

But slightly different in the sense that I think of my,

Rather than thinking about,

Like a movie character,

I would think of my future self.

So I would say that okay my future self is this kind of this you know idealistic personality,

Who has kind of worked on himself and you know,

Raised his consciousness and overcome his fears.

And then I would ask that okay what would my future self do in this situation and kind of then stepping into being their future self and doing that thing in that kind of my measure of kind of you know reference point of where I want to be versus,

You know,

Where I,

What I am,

What I have been.

Yeah.

This is kind of unformed but it was just making me think of maybe some fear of actually catching that self,

Like that being the accepting or embracing the treasure,

Being that future self fully,

And I am that now,

And there is no me that I'm working toward optimally becoming in the future like I wonder if maybe there's something protective about never quite reaching that.

But,

But you could enjoy the treasure of it,

But there's something uncomfortable about actually being that self now maybe that means that you have to accept who you are fully versus having the option of being something,

Quote unquote better or more evolved or whatever it might be.

Right,

Right,

Right.

And,

You know,

And also,

You know,

On the contrary of it.

Also,

This thinking about this that how we kind of postpone what we wish to experience that you know for example,

We think that,

Okay,

Right now I am this,

You know this kind of a person who is,

For example,

You know,

Fearful or whatever that is,

But I it will take me time to become that version which is you know not fearful or who is,

You know,

Kind of so called better than this particular.

But what,

What we can see,

You know what we can maybe see here is that we ourselves are postponing becoming that but better version of us.

And what we can do is we can simply step into that right now and be that now in this moment.

So that is something which kind of helps me to not postpone these,

You know experiences or,

For example,

If I'm saying that,

You know what I was talking about the float time thing that I want to experience.

And I know there is a way I can say that oh my future version you know who has overcome his fears will go for a float time kick speed.

But all I can say that it's now I will do it right now,

You know,

Just after the session maybe and experience now.

So yeah,

I think the now factor then,

You know,

Kind of not postpones things,

Things and makes us do things now in this moment.

Yeah,

That's a powerful image to me of the like,

Visually stepping in,

Stepping forward into this me that's maybe a few feet in front.

Yeah,

Actually being that me.

Yeah,

Now.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And yeah,

It's powerful.

I was,

I really like,

Like studying about manifestation and how,

Like how we manifest and I was also listening to,

You know,

I also listened to how like episodes which are you know books which tell me how ancient civilizations are people you know who,

Who were before us,

They used to practice manifestation and techniques of manifestation.

I think one thing I realized was that manifestation is about not maybe thinking about the future that okay I want this I want that positive thinking and you know,

Law of attraction and wanting to manifest and,

You know,

Okay,

I want to become this,

But manifestation is simply about being that now becoming that now,

You know,

Getting into that energy of that person so if I'm saying that I will be,

For example,

I will be wealthy,

That is kind of postponing it but when I say that I am abundant or I am wealthy right now,

I become that right now and I start behaving like that.

Right,

Rather than not behaving like a wealthy person right now think worrying about my monthly expenses not giving to people and thinking I will do that in the future,

That is an illusion that we keep creating for ourselves.

It's always the now,

Stefan doing it right now.

Great,

So do you feel we can shift into a short meditation maybe?

That sounds good to me.

Something relevant to what we discussed today.

Okay,

So yes let's do that.

And now we are in the last segment of our discussion session today.

So,

You can join us in the meditation and if you want you can shift into a comfortable posture,

Your meditation posture.

And also,

Maybe for this meditation if you want,

You can close your eyes.

Maybe we can just begin by relaxing our body.

Relaxing our mind.

Then we can bring our awareness to our breath.

Relax your mind and your body further with your breath.

Maybe also using the breath as the anchor to this moment.

Relax your mind.

Now you can maybe think about or bring to your mind.

Some fear that you might be experiencing or you might have.

It doesn't have to be anything intense,

It can be something light.

Something that is not intense.

You can think about a fear.

And as you think about it,

Just notice how your body reacts to that.

And you can relax your body with your breath.

If it feels uncomfortable.

And then maybe think about or bring a visual to your mind that let's say if you step into this fear.

Let's say if you decide to experience this fear,

Face this fear by doing such an activity that will make you face this fear.

How then can you overcome it?

How will this experiencing and coming face to face with your fear will help you to overcome the fear?

Again,

Notice if your body feels something differently.

Maybe this now.

Then again,

Just relax yourself with a couple of breaths.

If you want,

You can also take slightly deeper breaths.

And then gradually in your own time,

You can open your eyes and come out of the meditation.

Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Thanks for exploring with me today.

My pleasure,

Turkey.

See you next time.

You.